March 8, 2024 • 40 mins
Why is it so hard to say no? What does it mean to really trust your YES and your NO? We're exploring a whole bunch of angles to knowing our limits and leaning into self-trust and agency to respond to requests.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
www.kattywhompous.com
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:02):
Hello, hello, the sleepy sisters are back. My name
is Elizabeth brink. Sarah Dara,I'm sleepy as ever.
We are both coaches forneurodivergent. Folks, I work
with adults, Sarah works withadults, young adults and older
teens. And we are going to talktoday about saying no. And I my
(00:31):
Kaleidoscope brain is going in amillion directions.
Kind of how we get like if wehad this topic in a jar that had
some kind of prism thing on it.
I feel like you could look at itin all these different
directions and be like, Oh, thisis the subtext of this topic. So
you had some thoughts, Sarah,tell us what you think about
(00:55):
this idea of saying no, whereshould we? Where should we
start? Well, it's so funny yousay that? Because I do think
there's there's a million waysin which we say now and and all
of that. And I guess I'll startwith, you know why this topic
feels so relevant to me thisweek, and kind of what's going
on? And I think that will giveus the kind of catalyst to go.
(01:18):
And then you can always pivotand always change if you don't
want to talk about that.
So I,so I created two reels this
week. And I didn't post them.
But I felt really like, yeah, Ineed to talk about this or
(01:39):
whatever. And what I realizedwas they both were about
different ways of saying no. AndI thought, huh, that's strange.
Why is that my focus right now.
And then I kind of took a minuteand realize, Okay, I've had to
say, no, in a couple ofdifferent contexts this last,
like week that were difficultknows for me, and I've been in a
(02:01):
lot of activation around that.
And I thought, wow, I think Imight have been self soothing
through these reels, you know,and like kind of processing
through. And I do that often,you know, as a creative and as a
coach, like, if I put stuff onInstagram, a lot of times it's
stuff I'm working out, you know.
And so I haven't actuallythinking a lot about this and
(02:24):
thinking about just the degreeof activation that I have around
giving knows, and thinkingthrough like, well, it's not all
knows and great. Can you say?
When can you describe what youmean by activation?
People don't know that word,because that's a word you and I
(02:46):
use a lot. Butjust wondering if you could you
you don't have to be elaborate,but
just like what does that mean?
Some activation? Yeah, mynervous system becomes
activated. And for me, thatlooks like rumination to some
degree, I get a little spinny Iget a little
(03:10):
a little anxiety, I just I havea little bit of extra like
energy, but it's not the goodkind.
Where you just kind of likezoom, and nobody benefits.
Especially me. It's not a happybuzzing, it's not happy buzzing.
(03:32):
It requires a lot from my systemto sue and get back to a
grounded more baseline point.
With certain nose, certain typesof nose are kind of depending on
what they are. And it'sfrustrating.
And what's even extrafrustrating is that because I
(03:56):
can say no in so many otherareas. And I've learned to do
that with minimal to noactivation and maybe even enjoy
saying you know you're in thereright to certain things like,
No, I'm not going to the moviesat 10 o'clock at night. No, this
isn't. I don't give a secondthought. Right. But I think
about, um, just like, this ideathat like, I don't know, I just
(04:18):
lost my train of thought becauseI think I'm actively thinking
about it.
Oh my gosh, okay. Well justnotice that activation, it will
I was just sitting here thinkingwhile you're thinking about
these different types of nose, Iwas thinking about how I am on
hopefully the tail end of like asix to eight week period of oh,
(04:41):
I should have said no.
And so I'm like on the otherside of this same coin, where I
didn'tI didn't realize in the moment
there wasn't activation aroundsaying yes. And it should have
been a no and now I'm likeliving
In the reality of not havingsaid No, when I probably need it
(05:06):
tothat menu remember this should
the word should have been yourpart of the? Because I can say
no and all these other areas isthat when a note comes up that
is more challenging for me.
I'll do it.
I mean, I've done enough healingwhere I will do it. But I just
(05:28):
will have a much harder timewith it, but I will make it
worse or compounded. Because Iwill tell myself, this shouldn't
be a big deal. Yes, this is notpeople say no all the time.
Right? I say no, all the time.
Oh, the saying that no,shouldn't be a big deal. It
shouldn't the same the noseshouldn't be I shouldn't. It's I
don't need to feel a certaintype of way. But the truth is,
(05:51):
my body does feel a certain typeof way. Well, and wouldn't you
say that? Like, I actually feellike that's not true. Like, at
least in society that, likewe've been, it's been drilled
into us to feel a certain typeof way about saying no.
Yeah, I think though, thesisters have been on this like
(06:14):
campaign of like, you know,taking back the now for years
now. And so I think in my littleworld, I guess, you know, I
should be good at this, I shouldbe better at this. But what I
realized, you know, in thinkingabout this was,
I think the hardest knows, forme are the ones that are around
(06:39):
so that I value, you know,thinking about. So Elizabeth and
I did some somatic work thisweek, and my little girl, my
inner little girl has been, youknow, just kind of at the
forefront, and thinking about,you know, what are why was I so
activated with these last twobigger nose. And what was like
(07:03):
this the common further, I wasthinking that they both were
around that little girl in mewho wants to ever want to be
seen everyone, someone to besaved someone to be helped, you
know that that part of me that'slike,
well, I'm going to be the personthat's going to see that person,
I'm going to be the person who'sgoing to make sure they are
(07:23):
known and loved. Right. And Ithink that when I'm having to
say no, even if I know it's theright decision, if it's around
something that I wish I couldsay yes to or I wish it was a
better fit, or I wish you know,it was something I had the
(07:43):
capacity for I think those areprobably the most activating
notice for me. Yeah, one of thecategories you didn't name that
is activating for me is sayingno, when it's something I've
previously said yes to are likethat the person the the request
is coming with a certain degreeof expectation of a yes. That's
(08:06):
like super hard, because it'slike, oh, but I, I used to do
that, or Yeah, I changed my mindwill or just the like, I've said
Yes, before, but that doesn'tmean and maybe I said Yes, lots
of times before, but this time,I don't want to say yes. I want
to say no. And it's extra hard,because then I feel I feel
(08:30):
pressure like oh, it needs to bea yes. Because it's always been
a yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I don'teven know if they feel that way.
Right. Like, the asker. Like, Idon't, I don't ask them like,
are you expecting a yes here? Orwere you expecting a Yes, and I
gave you, but it's like, thatleads to my activation though.
(08:50):
Like,when you when you're in that?
Oh, it's just likeI just makes you want to crawl
out of my skin.
But Ihistorically have a problem
saying no, as do many people,especially those with, you know,
(09:13):
painful backgrounds where theywere, you know, not given a lot
of space to have an opinion atall about what was was or was
not about to happen. And so whenI think about,
you know, this whole idea aroundlike informed consent,
(09:36):
you know, not just like, hey,will you do me a favor, but
like, hey, I need help gettingour basement cleaned out. Would
you be able to help with that sothat you actually know what it
is you're like, answering tothat is not afforded to well,
really, lots of people don't askthings like that. But also it's
not afforded to children. And somost of us not have
(10:00):
anybody but most of a lot ofpeople grew up,
not ever being asked, and thenhaving like a not a don't want
to honored. Yeah. And so I justfeel like it gets kind of
hardwired in at a really youngage. And it's modeled by a lot
of people around us. And so, tome, it feels like this really
(10:22):
complicated. Like, how did I gethere? It's like, yeah, I got
here. Yeah, that's how I gothere. It's just like, how else
Where else would I have gottento, other than to this place
where saying, it's really hard.
I was thinking about, you know,even with clients, sometimes.
They'll say, oh, yeah, you know,I mean, yeah, I said, No, and
I'm really proud. But like,they're at the point of burnout.
(10:45):
It's like, they can't get that.
No, yes. It's to the pointwhere, like, I physically and
mentally cannot do it. And thenit's like, okay, now I could
say, so I know how to say no,it's like you do.
But there's a lot of stops onthe way that, you know, how's
(11:06):
this work in Korea? You know,yeah, like that? Can you say no,
when you have no good reason,quote, unquote, right? Or, like,
I don't even want to.
I remember, like, years andyears ago, when I was in my late
teens, early 20s. And you werelike, going to therapy. And you
were learning all this, likeboundary stuff. I remember, you
were like reading boundaries,books, and all this stuff. And I
(11:29):
remember you saying no to stufffor no good reason. Not even
having a reason or offering one.
And I remember being outraged bythe audacity
to say no, and have no like,What do you mean, you can't do
that? Yes, you can. And it'slike, I still live with a little
(11:53):
bit of that inside of me, whereit just so hard to break free
from that thinking of assumingother people's capacity,
assuming, you know,presuming upon their compassion,
whatever it is that like leadsto that energy, which is a
separate, that's a separateconversation that like the being
the asker.
(12:18):
But I think now in hindsight, Ithink about that younger version
of you practicing thatbrave, routine. I mean, it was
like you I had just want a shirtthat said, No, you bet you
basically swung in the otherdirection. It's true. You
overcorrected. And you werelike, No is the only word that I
know.
And it was so brave. It waslike, You were disrupting
(12:43):
generation generations ofpatterns of how at least the
women in our family operate. Anddad, I mean, I was gonna Yeah,
the men to have no offense,guys, you're listening, feeling
uncomfortable about?
But yeah, I mean, there is justthis, like this heritage of
saying yes.
And deny, you know, ofabandoning yourself.
(13:07):
Yeah. And I will say, honestly,I feel like, dad and the work
he's done himself. And the wayhe has pivoted around that, you
know, or at least he had, like,these long stretches of years,
where he really was, like, youknow,
modeled, like, what an authenticYes. Is what an authentic No,
(13:30):
was, to a degree that we didn'tget as kids. And being around
that, I mean, not perfectly, butlike enough to where I was like,
okay, like you can, people cantrust your nose. People can
trust your yeses. Like, that'swild, right? Because a lot of
times if you're someone who'safraid to say no, you won't ask
(13:54):
other people for help, becauseyour experiences saying yes to
things that don't feel good. Andyou don't want to put somebody
else in that position. It getsvery convoluted. Yeah, I'm just
thinking of what you're sayingto around like, trusting other
people, but I'm thinking liketrusting your own yes and no, is
so important. And I think thatis, that's an awareness and a
(14:17):
skill. I think, I've had to workto develop. And I'm still
obviously because I'm in themidst of this right now, where I
over committed myself.
To that, that's like, where alot of the work has been for me
and will continue to be aroundlike, Can I trust and can I even
notice, earlier and earlier,when there is a no? And also can
(14:44):
I notice earlier and earlierwhen there's a yes.
And like test both of thesebecause I also this is, you
know, here's the irony, whichshould always exist with neuro
divergence, I feel like is thatat the same time
Time is over committing myselfand struggling to say no, I also
have like a quick and dirty No,it comes all the time, all the
(15:10):
time. And I have an automatic noinside of me that I often am
wrestling with. And it comes outsometimes in like the wrong
moments. And I say that becauseit comes out and I end up
hurting someone's feelings. Andthat's like to me, I'm in
Enneagram too. I'm like I'm nothere to hurt your feelings.
(15:33):
But I don't have like I have anunderdeveloped break system when
it comes to that of likeresponding to the internal yes
and the internal knowimmediately and I think for me
the learning and the workpractice is pausing before any
(15:53):
answer islike yes that's so true like the
being able to say like, I don'tknow right now I'll circle back
like that's a that's a hardthat's a hard thing I was
thinking about to you eventhough you just came through
this like six weeks of like Imaybe should have said notice in
these things.
(16:15):
I know some of the things thatyou've said yes to and
they're around things that youlove and like they're they're
part of your value system whichit's tricky to say no to and
also you have two littles thatyou just never know week to
week. Is this going to be toomuch there is some
(16:35):
unpredictability you knowthey're sick they're close in
age one gets something the otherone and so you know, you got to
give yourself a little bit of abreak in there because you can't
Yes I do think that youpersonally have work to do and
like checking in with that likebut I think I think your best
(16:56):
laid plan well here's theproblem didn't have a best
Okay, so like you're okay but Iwas also thinking to that the
know you mentioned earlier ofchanging your mind
right and I know some of thethings you Oh forget it and I
(17:17):
gotta tell you there is a yes onmy plate right now that I that I
gave I'm not going to get intoit
to protect myself and others butI gave a yes
that was a no and I knew was ano
oh yeah and yeah, those are hardto swallow. And I needed to I do
(17:43):
not want to it is a hard no. AndI have given a yes and and I am
working with that because I intrying to be really vague but
I'm trying to zoom out a littlebit from myself and look at like
(18:03):
the greater context and likewhat this yes would mean to
other people and what that who Iwant to be in the world how I
want to interact with mycommunity and with people around
me and I think as uncomfortableas this yes feels and as loud as
(18:24):
that inner like Oh no.
I feel like there is also somegoodness for me to be sitting in
this discomfort and like doingit anyway and I think it's
really tricky because you can bein like very toxic situations
where you're pushing past thatNo, and so I'm not talking about
(18:46):
that like putting yourself indanger at risk. I'm just talking
about like, what about for thesake of others sometimes can
there be a calculated yes eventhough it's a no it's stretchy,
it's the ones that are stretchywhere you know, but I think you
know Yes, I do think that that'spossible and I think that's the
(19:10):
reality of life and then whatsupports can I like you know,
call upon and encouragement andbut I think that being in that
kind of a stretchy yes no thinghas to come with some have done
some work on Yeah, and you can'treally it's not like a regular
(19:30):
thing it's like a once a year Ihave this like stretchy Yes.
Where I'm just like the same oneevery year.
I can't talk about any of thedetails. So room mom or
something your school. It's notlike a recovery. No, I didn't
give a yes to some kind of likepermanent long term commitment.
(19:51):
A whole other kind ofconversation. No, it was more of
like an assessment of like, canI cope? Can I deal? Yeah,
Ah, and can I, you know, putmyself second for the sake of
others for a moment. I can. AndI like being someone who can do
(20:12):
that. And I used to only everoperate that way. And right,
that's where the inflexibilityof like, oh, I only ever am
expansive and stretching andchallenging myself and just, it
means so much. It's so helpful.
And it's like true that's soactivating even thinking about
it. Even just your experiencebeing like, someone observe or
(20:35):
watching you do that. It's like,oh, oh,
all time for our children. YouWhat do we say? Yes, to all the
time. We're like, Why did I sayI would do that? And then you're
thinking, it's okay. It's okay.
It's just like two hours and goto the movie. People? Oh my
gosh, that one feels like aneasy example. My my Yes, that is
(20:57):
actually a no is like any craftproject, any arts and crafts,
any, anything that doesn'tinvolve me just doodling on a
blank sheet of paper. If itrequires scissors, and glue and
any instructions if I have toshow them or we have to watch a
video and figure I am like ahard no at the these little
(21:17):
people they want it. So it's sohard to say no to that. And so
we have them in a school thatdoes a lot of that at school, we
have a couple of babysitter'swho do tons of that with them.
And I looked for some summercamp options for them that are
(21:39):
like particularly like that,because I'm like they have this
need, but I cannot be the one.
This is so because we are justabout to enter into spring
break. Andonce again, I did not plan very
well, as far as the one that hasa lot of needs. And some of the
(22:01):
stuff I normally rely on wasbooked.
So I'm going to be getting a lotof those stretchy, no yeses this
week, becausedo I have a right to say notice?
Yeah, but like, I also have aresponsibility to like not just
let my eight year old just sitaround with her needs and not be
(22:22):
intentional or be thinking aboutthe fact that she all has all
the space and time. She needssomething modeled she needs.
This is skill building thatwe're doing with them in this
like free space or whatever. Andit hurts really bad. But it's
like, what is the good enough?
(22:43):
What is the what is it? dunloecalls it like the minimum
viable?
solution or whatever? Like?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, would itbe okay with you if we got out a
bunch of supplies, and just madewhatever we wanted with it? Or
does it have to be a guidedcraft project? Like, those are
the kinds of questions I askedthe kids when they're in the
(23:03):
insatiable too. And I just haveto say, if you're listening, and
you know us well, and you sendbirthday or holiday gifts for my
children, please, please don'tsend us project kits. Okay. And
I just want to say to theaudience, that she totally sent
my daughterfor her birthday, like two
months ago. We know what it waslike, or how to draw a book. You
(23:27):
sent her that and then you senther like these creating magnets
thing.
Yeah, yeah.
And she asked me today at eighto'clock at night, she pulled
that box out. And she said, Ithink we should do this right
now. And I said, No, I'm sosorry. That was a no, I had no
(23:47):
problem saying, These things areso easy to gift. Yeah, we got
one. I'm not going to say whatit was because I can't remember
who gave it to us. But we gotone and like, sweet kid begged
me begged me like almost everyday for weeks, please, can we
please can we get that thing?
And finally Cory did it withthem. And I loved him so much
more thanI know that is Oh, that's
(24:10):
because it made them so happy.
Like, do crafts with my kid. Iwill say and I'm an artsy
person, you know. So there arecertain things I can do with
her. But also as far as yourkids go, of course, people send
those things because they lovethem and if you're around them
at all, you know they love them.
But I hear you, I don't lovethem. And those little
(24:31):
instruction booklets and thenboth of them asking me questions
at the same time. It's likethat's the most obvious no I
feel in my body is in thosescenarios. And that's also when
I feel most challenged to likecheck myself because when they
were littler Yeah, no just camespew anatomy all the time in
(24:52):
ways that I feel likeI want it to be measured. I want
themTo trust my yes and no. And I
want to feel that like what youwere saying about when I say yes
to something and when I say noto something like even this Yes.
That I said, that was really ano on the inside.
I trust it as a yes. As I don'tknow, is superficial. Yes. A
(25:17):
stretchy, yes, whatever you wantto call it, but like, I do trust
that it was I did think aboutit. It was like, I yeah, I
thought about it. And I knew forsure.
And then I made the consciousdecision to make it a yes. And
well, not all yeses feel good.
Yeah.
(25:42):
So is it a yes. It doesn't feelgood because of, or is it? Like?
I don't know. Is it? Is it me?
It's like a no, I don't want to.
I don't want to it's a no. Yeah.
You don't want to know, but I'mgiving a yes. And it's an
informed? Yes. And I trust thatit's a yes. So it just is like
what you're saying it's just ayes. That like
(26:06):
it doesn't it doesn't have thegood feelings of like, Yes, this
is a yes. And it feels certain.
It's like, well, it still kindof feels on the inside. But I'm
not gonna go back on it. And I'mfine. I'm not stressed. I'm not
activated. I'm fine about it.
And I need to I'm sorry, wereyou so so?
Let's probably put the wholelike idea aside, that you hit a
(26:34):
point in your healing journey,that all of a sudden, this
becomes clear. Maybe for someoneout there good on you. We're not
talking about you. We're talkingabout just the average person.
Having a relationship with knowsI think it's very dependent on
the season. You're in. Yeah,resources you have available. I
(26:54):
don't think about like whenJoshua and I first got married,
I said no. So much to him. Thathe came to me one day. And he
said, This has to stop.
The first word literally out ofyour mouth every time I asked
you this No. Okay. Cory, and Ihad the same conversation. You
(27:18):
did? And I said, he said, it'slike,
you're not even Cognizant wasyou just, it just comes out of
your mouth? No. Yeah. And Isaid,
Yeah, because what would happenis, I would say no, right away.
And then I would change my mind,I would say, well, actually, and
(27:39):
it wasn't necessarily a fawnresponse. It was just like, then
it like that gave me the spaceto think about it, so that I
could really decide what Iwanted to do. But him here No,
so often was like wearing himdown. Yeah, he's like, take the
time and figure out what youwant to do. But can we just not
do the know to start and givethe pot, you know, like that
(28:01):
space, whatever. And he's, itjust does something to me. And
and so I had to learn to not dothat. And I told him, I said,
you know, I was teaching at thetime. Like,
we had Sam, he was just a babyand Jake and I and I said, I'm
just always tired. So everythingjust feels like a no. And he's
like, fine, but just don't sayit out loud. So I stopped saying
(28:23):
it out loud until I wasabsolutely sure. And then I kind
of move on from that. But like,I feel like now I have, there
are things that I'm having ahard time saying no to, you
know, so I don't feel like Imaybe oh, maybe it's just me, I
don't feel like I've ever justgonna be an I don't even need to
(28:43):
put that on myself. I guess. Ifeel like I'm okay giving myself
the compassion of like, youdon't have to have this figured
out it just that you're alwaysgonna have to
be mindful of Mullis we'rehuman. And it's messy. And it's
relational. Yeah, like, there'sthis like layering on of, it's
(29:07):
the thing you're asking meabout, and then the emotions I'm
having about that thing andabout you. And then like the
relational connection to you,it's all these things get kind
of, like, compounded together.
And it suddenly is not evenabout the original request
necessarily. Cory said almostthe same thing to me. I mean,
he's just said, I feel likeeverything I asked you to do you
(29:29):
say no to but then sometimelater you do it. Because it was
a lot around like things aroundthe house and and I just was you
know, he's like, can you pullthe trash bins back, you know,
from the trash collection timeor whatever, and I would just be
like No, andevery single thing and here's
(29:50):
the thing I wouldn't even alwayssay no, but I had a look on my
face that was speaking louderthan any words needed to
be used. And he is sensitive.
And he could feel that and wasjust at this point of like, Am I
on my own here with all thisstuff? Or like, are you because
(30:11):
I'm seeing you do it or like yousaid, change your mind. And so
it's creating this wholestressful loop of like, we have
to do this dance where, youknow, he got to know that like,
my first no wasn't my realanswer. Well, sometimes even
being neurodivergent it's it's anervous system response, you
(30:31):
know, if the kids are whiny andlike, I just had a long day.
And, you know, their timing, orJosh was not that great. The
know may just be like a fight.
Oh, yeah. It's just a boundary.
It's like, I can't, whatever itis it I can't I cannot period.
Yeah, it's not like, I'm notwilling, I won't. It's an I
(30:54):
can't make it stop. Make itstop.
I mean, there's plenty of timeswhere, you know,
my, the youngest, has been, youknow, having a lot of changes
and a lot of mood stuff. AndI feel myself saying I can't I
(31:14):
can't do this, like, as I'mlike, walking, and I'm like, I
will be able to because I don'twant her to like, but if that
slips out, I'm like, I can't dothis. I'll be like, I will and
just admit it, I'm gonna go inthe other room, but I can feel
that trying tonot hand her that no, because I
want to be able, there's justsometimes I don't have the
(31:37):
capacity, I've got to go take aminute or whatever. I definitely
feel that like in my body aswe're talking about just that.
It's not where I'll always land.
It's no, it's not. And I wonder,I wonder if some of it is like
linked back to like, when wewere little, you know, not being
(31:58):
able to say no. And so havingsome like fight or flight kind
of energy in there, maybe even alittle Freezy like get stuck
with like, I don't know how toanswer this because I feel a no.
And when I feel no inside, I'mnot allowed to say it outside.
So it creates, you know, a realdilemma for a child. And you get
(32:22):
this, you know, habitualresponse in your system of like,
I'm just gonna freeze ifsomebody asked me something, and
it's no, I'm, like, I'm notgoing to know how to say
anything. I won't know how toanswer at all. Like, it can also
look like indecision, right?
That's so true. Because I thinkabout when if I'm in that state,
where I'm flooded, or whatever.
(32:44):
And I say no. And this issomething I've had to really,
really work on since I've beenmarried.
And it's been a good experiment.
But like, I'll say no. And whenI change my mind, it's usually
because when I'm flooded, Icannot see myself in the
scenario that person's askingwith the resources and the
capacity need to do to do it.
(33:07):
And when he actually asked me tostop saying no, and to take a
minute, and or whatever to gothink about it, I was able to
access that a lot more often oflike, okay, so I know, tomorrow
night, I'm going to be tired.
But like, we're going to beoutside it's fall, it's the
pumpkin patch, or whatever itmay be, you know, and I'm like,
(33:29):
I've done this before, and Ireally enjoy it. But right now,
I just don't feel like it. It'slike I started be able to access
that a little bit more. BecauseI think being neurodivergent,
too. It's like, it's not justknowing the moment even
someone's asking you aboutsomething this weekend.
(33:49):
I can't see myself there yet,unless I got. And if I see
myself it's me doing nothing.
Yeah, it's like, oh, no, no, I'mtired. Yeah, there's not going
to be nothing happening. There'sno scenario in which I'm going
to be rested enough in the nextseven days that I'm going to be
able to, like, in some sensewhen I say yes, it's knowing
full well that I might not wantto do it when the time comes.
(34:12):
And I'm probably going to betired while doing it. Because
that just is life. But yeah,yeah, I, I had a thought and it
just fluttered away. Butoh, I wanted to mention to like
the privilege of being able tosay no, and then, you know,
generationally, and obviouslyrace and socio economic
(34:33):
background and, you know, areyou disabled? Are you poor, what
else is going on in your lifethat might make it so that
saying no, is not an option?
And, you know, I think about thepeople that I work with, who
have so much going on on theirplate and there isn't relief.
(34:57):
There isn't, you know, lots ofresources and supports and
places where they can, like,delegate, you know, and shift
things away from themselves.
There's just a lot of like, mustdo, and must deal with. And I
just want to acknowledge thatfor people whose lives look like
that right now, or, or have ormaybe will in the future that
(35:22):
that is not what we're talkingabout like that is an incredibly
painful place to be in and thereis still room to grow and how
you approach your autonomy andyour ability to know whether you
want to be doing something ornot whether you can.
(35:43):
And just to honor the fact thatyeah, there are times when that
is not possible. And it would beunsafe to say no. And there is a
so much privilege and a lot ofwhat we said in previous
I think about seasons, like whenI was just Jake and I and I was
(36:04):
teaching and I was in that kindof hypervigilant mode all the
time. I don't even thinkthere have not had seasons
before that were I wouldn't haveeven
I probably been frustrated ifsomeone said like, we'll just
say no to it, or can you say noor whatever. Because when you're
in that mode, or if you've neverhad a time period where you've
(36:28):
had access to that, thatwouldn't even go through your
mind, you would be saying yes tothings that like you probably
could say no to there's probablyat least a couple of choices in
there. But even entertain that,but probably wouldn't even be in
your sphere, you know, and it'sa skill and it's exhausting to
exercise it and to learn it, youknow, and if you have no
(36:50):
capacity, or very low or littleand you're surviving, then using
some of your energy to likelearn this new skill might feel
really dismissive of thehardship that you're in the
midst of. And I do still thinkit's worth like being curious
about. But I absolutely am notsaying everybody should and can
(37:14):
do this.
Right away in all thesedifferent areas of their lives.
I mean, I still am like, I ballsdeep and commitments that I'm
exhausted.
That's a good point that it'skind of aimless to think like,
Okay, listen, you know, couldyou say no to this, right? Or,
(37:36):
like, even like, if you have ifyou're neurodivergent person
raising or parenting, aneurodivergent child, and there
are places you could probablysay no, in that, no, you still
have to regulate yourself, youstill have to like, get your
system grounded and be in thatdiscomfort, and then also deal
(37:58):
with whatever the fallout is ofthat situation. This is like
layered, it's not like a no,just like you throw it out there
to the wind, and everythingfalls into place. It's not like,
do you want to supersize that?
You're not the kind of No, we'retalking about? Yeah, we're
talking. It's effortful. Andespecially if for generations,
it's not been available ormodeled, then it's like a brand
(38:19):
new skill. And your brain has tolike create new neural pathways
to be able to do this work. Andthat is possible for everyone.
And it's not always the mostimportant thing right now. Yeah,
(38:40):
yeah. I like what you said, Ithink we could probably end on
that. Like, I agree. I hope thatpeople can at least be curious
about it. Yeah, like, wherecould I say no, don't do like
Sarah did were you just starteverything. What do you think
you want? I mean, you can, butit was stressful. I also was
(39:02):
like, in my early 20s. So youknow, it's like,
the things I was saying no to. Imean, some of them might have
been big, but that's a wholeother conversation. But yeah, it
was a lot of like, No, I'm notgoing to that family thing. No,
I'm not coming. No, I'm nothelping with that.
Yeah. Oh, and yeah, it nothingirritates you more when someone
(39:26):
else has the ability to do someof these skills. And you're over
there trapped in them. Yeah. Ohmy gosh. Yeah. That's like the
conflict between us. Really? Idon't work your shadows over
there like that piece ofyou trash human will
just help a little walkingaround getting up in the morning
(39:49):
telling people no asking you forwhat you want. No one wants to
talk to you. Okay, yeah, justget out of here. All right.
That's it for now. All right.
Love you.
Love you too bye bye
Hello, hello, the sleepy sisters are back. My name
is Elizabeth brink. Sarah Dara,I'm sleepy as ever.
We are both coaches forneurodivergent. Folks, I work
with adults, Sarah works withadults, young adults and older
teens. And we are going to talktoday about saying no. And I my
(00:31):
Kaleidoscope brain is going in amillion directions.
Kind of how we get like if wehad this topic in a jar that had
some kind of prism thing on it.
I feel like you could look at itin all these different
directions and be like, Oh, thisis the subtext of this topic. So
you had some thoughts, Sarah,tell us what you think about
(00:55):
this idea of saying no, whereshould we? Where should we
start? Well, it's so funny yousay that? Because I do think
there's there's a million waysin which we say now and and all
of that. And I guess I'll startwith, you know why this topic
feels so relevant to me thisweek, and kind of what's going
on? And I think that will giveus the kind of catalyst to go.
(01:18):
And then you can always pivotand always change if you don't
want to talk about that.
So I,so I created two reels this
week. And I didn't post them.
But I felt really like, yeah, Ineed to talk about this or
(01:39):
whatever. And what I realizedwas they both were about
different ways of saying no. AndI thought, huh, that's strange.
Why is that my focus right now.
And then I kind of took a minuteand realize, Okay, I've had to
say, no, in a couple ofdifferent contexts this last,
like week that were difficultknows for me, and I've been in a
(02:01):
lot of activation around that.
And I thought, wow, I think Imight have been self soothing
through these reels, you know,and like kind of processing
through. And I do that often,you know, as a creative and as a
coach, like, if I put stuff onInstagram, a lot of times it's
stuff I'm working out, you know.
And so I haven't actuallythinking a lot about this and
(02:24):
thinking about just the degreeof activation that I have around
giving knows, and thinkingthrough like, well, it's not all
knows and great. Can you say?
When can you describe what youmean by activation?
People don't know that word,because that's a word you and I
(02:46):
use a lot. Butjust wondering if you could you
you don't have to be elaborate,but
just like what does that mean?
Some activation? Yeah, mynervous system becomes
activated. And for me, thatlooks like rumination to some
degree, I get a little spinny Iget a little
(03:10):
a little anxiety, I just I havea little bit of extra like
energy, but it's not the goodkind.
Where you just kind of likezoom, and nobody benefits.
Especially me. It's not a happybuzzing, it's not happy buzzing.
(03:32):
It requires a lot from my systemto sue and get back to a
grounded more baseline point.
With certain nose, certain typesof nose are kind of depending on
what they are. And it'sfrustrating.
And what's even extrafrustrating is that because I
(03:56):
can say no in so many otherareas. And I've learned to do
that with minimal to noactivation and maybe even enjoy
saying you know you're in thereright to certain things like,
No, I'm not going to the moviesat 10 o'clock at night. No, this
isn't. I don't give a secondthought. Right. But I think
about, um, just like, this ideathat like, I don't know, I just
(04:18):
lost my train of thought becauseI think I'm actively thinking
about it.
Oh my gosh, okay. Well justnotice that activation, it will
I was just sitting here thinkingwhile you're thinking about
these different types of nose, Iwas thinking about how I am on
hopefully the tail end of like asix to eight week period of oh,
(04:41):
I should have said no.
And so I'm like on the otherside of this same coin, where I
didn'tI didn't realize in the moment
there wasn't activation aroundsaying yes. And it should have
been a no and now I'm likeliving
In the reality of not havingsaid No, when I probably need it
(05:06):
tothat menu remember this should
the word should have been yourpart of the? Because I can say
no and all these other areas isthat when a note comes up that
is more challenging for me.
I'll do it.
I mean, I've done enough healingwhere I will do it. But I just
(05:28):
will have a much harder timewith it, but I will make it
worse or compounded. Because Iwill tell myself, this shouldn't
be a big deal. Yes, this is notpeople say no all the time.
Right? I say no, all the time.
Oh, the saying that no,shouldn't be a big deal. It
shouldn't the same the noseshouldn't be I shouldn't. It's I
don't need to feel a certaintype of way. But the truth is,
(05:51):
my body does feel a certain typeof way. Well, and wouldn't you
say that? Like, I actually feellike that's not true. Like, at
least in society that, likewe've been, it's been drilled
into us to feel a certain typeof way about saying no.
Yeah, I think though, thesisters have been on this like
(06:14):
campaign of like, you know,taking back the now for years
now. And so I think in my littleworld, I guess, you know, I
should be good at this, I shouldbe better at this. But what I
realized, you know, in thinkingabout this was,
I think the hardest knows, forme are the ones that are around
(06:39):
so that I value, you know,thinking about. So Elizabeth and
I did some somatic work thisweek, and my little girl, my
inner little girl has been, youknow, just kind of at the
forefront, and thinking about,you know, what are why was I so
activated with these last twobigger nose. And what was like
(07:03):
this the common further, I wasthinking that they both were
around that little girl in mewho wants to ever want to be
seen everyone, someone to besaved someone to be helped, you
know that that part of me that'slike,
well, I'm going to be the personthat's going to see that person,
I'm going to be the person who'sgoing to make sure they are
(07:23):
known and loved. Right. And Ithink that when I'm having to
say no, even if I know it's theright decision, if it's around
something that I wish I couldsay yes to or I wish it was a
better fit, or I wish you know,it was something I had the
(07:43):
capacity for I think those areprobably the most activating
notice for me. Yeah, one of thecategories you didn't name that
is activating for me is sayingno, when it's something I've
previously said yes to are likethat the person the the request
is coming with a certain degreeof expectation of a yes. That's
(08:06):
like super hard, because it'slike, oh, but I, I used to do
that, or Yeah, I changed my mindwill or just the like, I've said
Yes, before, but that doesn'tmean and maybe I said Yes, lots
of times before, but this time,I don't want to say yes. I want
to say no. And it's extra hard,because then I feel I feel
(08:30):
pressure like oh, it needs to bea yes. Because it's always been
a yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I don'teven know if they feel that way.
Right. Like, the asker. Like, Idon't, I don't ask them like,
are you expecting a yes here? Orwere you expecting a Yes, and I
gave you, but it's like, thatleads to my activation though.
(08:50):
Like,when you when you're in that?
Oh, it's just likeI just makes you want to crawl
out of my skin.
But Ihistorically have a problem
saying no, as do many people,especially those with, you know,
(09:13):
painful backgrounds where theywere, you know, not given a lot
of space to have an opinion atall about what was was or was
not about to happen. And so whenI think about,
you know, this whole idea aroundlike informed consent,
(09:36):
you know, not just like, hey,will you do me a favor, but
like, hey, I need help gettingour basement cleaned out. Would
you be able to help with that sothat you actually know what it
is you're like, answering tothat is not afforded to well,
really, lots of people don't askthings like that. But also it's
not afforded to children. And somost of us not have
(10:00):
anybody but most of a lot ofpeople grew up,
not ever being asked, and thenhaving like a not a don't want
to honored. Yeah. And so I justfeel like it gets kind of
hardwired in at a really youngage. And it's modeled by a lot
of people around us. And so, tome, it feels like this really
(10:22):
complicated. Like, how did I gethere? It's like, yeah, I got
here. Yeah, that's how I gothere. It's just like, how else
Where else would I have gottento, other than to this place
where saying, it's really hard.
I was thinking about, you know,even with clients, sometimes.
They'll say, oh, yeah, you know,I mean, yeah, I said, No, and
I'm really proud. But like,they're at the point of burnout.
(10:45):
It's like, they can't get that.
No, yes. It's to the pointwhere, like, I physically and
mentally cannot do it. And thenit's like, okay, now I could
say, so I know how to say no,it's like you do.
But there's a lot of stops onthe way that, you know, how's
(11:06):
this work in Korea? You know,yeah, like that? Can you say no,
when you have no good reason,quote, unquote, right? Or, like,
I don't even want to.
I remember, like, years andyears ago, when I was in my late
teens, early 20s. And you werelike, going to therapy. And you
were learning all this, likeboundary stuff. I remember, you
were like reading boundaries,books, and all this stuff. And I
(11:29):
remember you saying no to stufffor no good reason. Not even
having a reason or offering one.
And I remember being outraged bythe audacity
to say no, and have no like,What do you mean, you can't do
that? Yes, you can. And it'slike, I still live with a little
(11:53):
bit of that inside of me, whereit just so hard to break free
from that thinking of assumingother people's capacity,
assuming, you know,presuming upon their compassion,
whatever it is that like leadsto that energy, which is a
separate, that's a separateconversation that like the being
the asker.
(12:18):
But I think now in hindsight, Ithink about that younger version
of you practicing thatbrave, routine. I mean, it was
like you I had just want a shirtthat said, No, you bet you
basically swung in the otherdirection. It's true. You
overcorrected. And you werelike, No is the only word that I
know.
And it was so brave. It waslike, You were disrupting
(12:43):
generation generations ofpatterns of how at least the
women in our family operate. Anddad, I mean, I was gonna Yeah,
the men to have no offense,guys, you're listening, feeling
uncomfortable about?
But yeah, I mean, there is justthis, like this heritage of
saying yes.
And deny, you know, ofabandoning yourself.
(13:07):
Yeah. And I will say, honestly,I feel like, dad and the work
he's done himself. And the wayhe has pivoted around that, you
know, or at least he had, like,these long stretches of years,
where he really was, like, youknow,
modeled, like, what an authenticYes. Is what an authentic No,
(13:30):
was, to a degree that we didn'tget as kids. And being around
that, I mean, not perfectly, butlike enough to where I was like,
okay, like you can, people cantrust your nose. People can
trust your yeses. Like, that'swild, right? Because a lot of
times if you're someone who'safraid to say no, you won't ask
(13:54):
other people for help, becauseyour experiences saying yes to
things that don't feel good. Andyou don't want to put somebody
else in that position. It getsvery convoluted. Yeah, I'm just
thinking of what you're sayingto around like, trusting other
people, but I'm thinking liketrusting your own yes and no, is
so important. And I think thatis, that's an awareness and a
(14:17):
skill. I think, I've had to workto develop. And I'm still
obviously because I'm in themidst of this right now, where I
over committed myself.
To that, that's like, where alot of the work has been for me
and will continue to be aroundlike, Can I trust and can I even
notice, earlier and earlier,when there is a no? And also can
(14:44):
I notice earlier and earlierwhen there's a yes.
And like test both of thesebecause I also this is, you
know, here's the irony, whichshould always exist with neuro
divergence, I feel like is thatat the same time
Time is over committing myselfand struggling to say no, I also
have like a quick and dirty No,it comes all the time, all the
(15:10):
time. And I have an automatic noinside of me that I often am
wrestling with. And it comes outsometimes in like the wrong
moments. And I say that becauseit comes out and I end up
hurting someone's feelings. Andthat's like to me, I'm in
Enneagram too. I'm like I'm nothere to hurt your feelings.
(15:33):
But I don't have like I have anunderdeveloped break system when
it comes to that of likeresponding to the internal yes
and the internal knowimmediately and I think for me
the learning and the workpractice is pausing before any
(15:53):
answer islike yes that's so true like the
being able to say like, I don'tknow right now I'll circle back
like that's a that's a hardthat's a hard thing I was
thinking about to you eventhough you just came through
this like six weeks of like Imaybe should have said notice in
these things.
(16:15):
I know some of the things thatyou've said yes to and
they're around things that youlove and like they're they're
part of your value system whichit's tricky to say no to and
also you have two littles thatyou just never know week to
week. Is this going to be toomuch there is some
(16:35):
unpredictability you knowthey're sick they're close in
age one gets something the otherone and so you know, you got to
give yourself a little bit of abreak in there because you can't
Yes I do think that youpersonally have work to do and
like checking in with that likebut I think I think your best
(16:56):
laid plan well here's theproblem didn't have a best
Okay, so like you're okay but Iwas also thinking to that the
know you mentioned earlier ofchanging your mind
right and I know some of thethings you Oh forget it and I
(17:17):
gotta tell you there is a yes onmy plate right now that I that I
gave I'm not going to get intoit
to protect myself and others butI gave a yes
that was a no and I knew was ano
oh yeah and yeah, those are hardto swallow. And I needed to I do
(17:43):
not want to it is a hard no. AndI have given a yes and and I am
working with that because I intrying to be really vague but
I'm trying to zoom out a littlebit from myself and look at like
(18:03):
the greater context and likewhat this yes would mean to
other people and what that who Iwant to be in the world how I
want to interact with mycommunity and with people around
me and I think as uncomfortableas this yes feels and as loud as
(18:24):
that inner like Oh no.
I feel like there is also somegoodness for me to be sitting in
this discomfort and like doingit anyway and I think it's
really tricky because you can bein like very toxic situations
where you're pushing past thatNo, and so I'm not talking about
(18:46):
that like putting yourself indanger at risk. I'm just talking
about like, what about for thesake of others sometimes can
there be a calculated yes eventhough it's a no it's stretchy,
it's the ones that are stretchywhere you know, but I think you
know Yes, I do think that that'spossible and I think that's the
(19:10):
reality of life and then whatsupports can I like you know,
call upon and encouragement andbut I think that being in that
kind of a stretchy yes no thinghas to come with some have done
some work on Yeah, and you can'treally it's not like a regular
(19:30):
thing it's like a once a year Ihave this like stretchy Yes.
Where I'm just like the same oneevery year.
I can't talk about any of thedetails. So room mom or
something your school. It's notlike a recovery. No, I didn't
give a yes to some kind of likepermanent long term commitment.
(19:51):
A whole other kind ofconversation. No, it was more of
like an assessment of like, canI cope? Can I deal? Yeah,
Ah, and can I, you know, putmyself second for the sake of
others for a moment. I can. AndI like being someone who can do
(20:12):
that. And I used to only everoperate that way. And right,
that's where the inflexibilityof like, oh, I only ever am
expansive and stretching andchallenging myself and just, it
means so much. It's so helpful.
And it's like true that's soactivating even thinking about
it. Even just your experiencebeing like, someone observe or
(20:35):
watching you do that. It's like,oh, oh,
all time for our children. YouWhat do we say? Yes, to all the
time. We're like, Why did I sayI would do that? And then you're
thinking, it's okay. It's okay.
It's just like two hours and goto the movie. People? Oh my
gosh, that one feels like aneasy example. My my Yes, that is
(20:57):
actually a no is like any craftproject, any arts and crafts,
any, anything that doesn'tinvolve me just doodling on a
blank sheet of paper. If itrequires scissors, and glue and
any instructions if I have toshow them or we have to watch a
video and figure I am like ahard no at the these little
(21:17):
people they want it. So it's sohard to say no to that. And so
we have them in a school thatdoes a lot of that at school, we
have a couple of babysitter'swho do tons of that with them.
And I looked for some summercamp options for them that are
(21:39):
like particularly like that,because I'm like they have this
need, but I cannot be the one.
This is so because we are justabout to enter into spring
break. Andonce again, I did not plan very
well, as far as the one that hasa lot of needs. And some of the
(22:01):
stuff I normally rely on wasbooked.
So I'm going to be getting a lotof those stretchy, no yeses this
week, becausedo I have a right to say notice?
Yeah, but like, I also have aresponsibility to like not just
let my eight year old just sitaround with her needs and not be
(22:22):
intentional or be thinking aboutthe fact that she all has all
the space and time. She needssomething modeled she needs.
This is skill building thatwe're doing with them in this
like free space or whatever. Andit hurts really bad. But it's
like, what is the good enough?
(22:43):
What is the what is it? dunloecalls it like the minimum
viable?
solution or whatever? Like?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, would itbe okay with you if we got out a
bunch of supplies, and just madewhatever we wanted with it? Or
does it have to be a guidedcraft project? Like, those are
the kinds of questions I askedthe kids when they're in the
(23:03):
insatiable too. And I just haveto say, if you're listening, and
you know us well, and you sendbirthday or holiday gifts for my
children, please, please don'tsend us project kits. Okay. And
I just want to say to theaudience, that she totally sent
my daughterfor her birthday, like two
months ago. We know what it waslike, or how to draw a book. You
(23:27):
sent her that and then you senther like these creating magnets
thing.
Yeah, yeah.
And she asked me today at eighto'clock at night, she pulled
that box out. And she said, Ithink we should do this right
now. And I said, No, I'm sosorry. That was a no, I had no
(23:47):
problem saying, These things areso easy to gift. Yeah, we got
one. I'm not going to say whatit was because I can't remember
who gave it to us. But we gotone and like, sweet kid begged
me begged me like almost everyday for weeks, please, can we
please can we get that thing?
And finally Cory did it withthem. And I loved him so much
more thanI know that is Oh, that's
(24:10):
because it made them so happy.
Like, do crafts with my kid. Iwill say and I'm an artsy
person, you know. So there arecertain things I can do with
her. But also as far as yourkids go, of course, people send
those things because they lovethem and if you're around them
at all, you know they love them.
But I hear you, I don't lovethem. And those little
(24:31):
instruction booklets and thenboth of them asking me questions
at the same time. It's likethat's the most obvious no I
feel in my body is in thosescenarios. And that's also when
I feel most challenged to likecheck myself because when they
were littler Yeah, no just camespew anatomy all the time in
(24:52):
ways that I feel likeI want it to be measured. I want
themTo trust my yes and no. And I
want to feel that like what youwere saying about when I say yes
to something and when I say noto something like even this Yes.
That I said, that was really ano on the inside.
I trust it as a yes. As I don'tknow, is superficial. Yes. A
(25:17):
stretchy, yes, whatever you wantto call it, but like, I do trust
that it was I did think aboutit. It was like, I yeah, I
thought about it. And I knew forsure.
And then I made the consciousdecision to make it a yes. And
well, not all yeses feel good.
Yeah.
(25:42):
So is it a yes. It doesn't feelgood because of, or is it? Like?
I don't know. Is it? Is it me?
It's like a no, I don't want to.
I don't want to it's a no. Yeah.
You don't want to know, but I'mgiving a yes. And it's an
informed? Yes. And I trust thatit's a yes. So it just is like
what you're saying it's just ayes. That like
(26:06):
it doesn't it doesn't have thegood feelings of like, Yes, this
is a yes. And it feels certain.
It's like, well, it still kindof feels on the inside. But I'm
not gonna go back on it. And I'mfine. I'm not stressed. I'm not
activated. I'm fine about it.
And I need to I'm sorry, wereyou so so?
Let's probably put the wholelike idea aside, that you hit a
(26:34):
point in your healing journey,that all of a sudden, this
becomes clear. Maybe for someoneout there good on you. We're not
talking about you. We're talkingabout just the average person.
Having a relationship with knowsI think it's very dependent on
the season. You're in. Yeah,resources you have available. I
(26:54):
don't think about like whenJoshua and I first got married,
I said no. So much to him. Thathe came to me one day. And he
said, This has to stop.
The first word literally out ofyour mouth every time I asked
you this No. Okay. Cory, and Ihad the same conversation. You
(27:18):
did? And I said, he said, it'slike,
you're not even Cognizant wasyou just, it just comes out of
your mouth? No. Yeah. And Isaid,
Yeah, because what would happenis, I would say no, right away.
And then I would change my mind,I would say, well, actually, and
(27:39):
it wasn't necessarily a fawnresponse. It was just like, then
it like that gave me the spaceto think about it, so that I
could really decide what Iwanted to do. But him here No,
so often was like wearing himdown. Yeah, he's like, take the
time and figure out what youwant to do. But can we just not
do the know to start and givethe pot, you know, like that
(28:01):
space, whatever. And he's, itjust does something to me. And
and so I had to learn to not dothat. And I told him, I said,
you know, I was teaching at thetime. Like,
we had Sam, he was just a babyand Jake and I and I said, I'm
just always tired. So everythingjust feels like a no. And he's
like, fine, but just don't sayit out loud. So I stopped saying
(28:23):
it out loud until I wasabsolutely sure. And then I kind
of move on from that. But like,I feel like now I have, there
are things that I'm having ahard time saying no to, you
know, so I don't feel like Imaybe oh, maybe it's just me, I
don't feel like I've ever justgonna be an I don't even need to
(28:43):
put that on myself. I guess. Ifeel like I'm okay giving myself
the compassion of like, youdon't have to have this figured
out it just that you're alwaysgonna have to
be mindful of Mullis we'rehuman. And it's messy. And it's
relational. Yeah, like, there'sthis like layering on of, it's
(29:07):
the thing you're asking meabout, and then the emotions I'm
having about that thing andabout you. And then like the
relational connection to you,it's all these things get kind
of, like, compounded together.
And it suddenly is not evenabout the original request
necessarily. Cory said almostthe same thing to me. I mean,
he's just said, I feel likeeverything I asked you to do you
(29:29):
say no to but then sometimelater you do it. Because it was
a lot around like things aroundthe house and and I just was you
know, he's like, can you pullthe trash bins back, you know,
from the trash collection timeor whatever, and I would just be
like No, andevery single thing and here's
(29:50):
the thing I wouldn't even alwayssay no, but I had a look on my
face that was speaking louderthan any words needed to
be used. And he is sensitive.
And he could feel that and wasjust at this point of like, Am I
on my own here with all thisstuff? Or like, are you because
(30:11):
I'm seeing you do it or like yousaid, change your mind. And so
it's creating this wholestressful loop of like, we have
to do this dance where, youknow, he got to know that like,
my first no wasn't my realanswer. Well, sometimes even
being neurodivergent it's it's anervous system response, you
(30:31):
know, if the kids are whiny andlike, I just had a long day.
And, you know, their timing, orJosh was not that great. The
know may just be like a fight.
Oh, yeah. It's just a boundary.
It's like, I can't, whatever itis it I can't I cannot period.
Yeah, it's not like, I'm notwilling, I won't. It's an I
(30:54):
can't make it stop. Make itstop.
I mean, there's plenty of timeswhere, you know,
my, the youngest, has been, youknow, having a lot of changes
and a lot of mood stuff. AndI feel myself saying I can't I
(31:14):
can't do this, like, as I'mlike, walking, and I'm like, I
will be able to because I don'twant her to like, but if that
slips out, I'm like, I can't dothis. I'll be like, I will and
just admit it, I'm gonna go inthe other room, but I can feel
that trying tonot hand her that no, because I
want to be able, there's justsometimes I don't have the
(31:37):
capacity, I've got to go take aminute or whatever. I definitely
feel that like in my body aswe're talking about just that.
It's not where I'll always land.
It's no, it's not. And I wonder,I wonder if some of it is like
linked back to like, when wewere little, you know, not being
(31:58):
able to say no. And so havingsome like fight or flight kind
of energy in there, maybe even alittle Freezy like get stuck
with like, I don't know how toanswer this because I feel a no.
And when I feel no inside, I'mnot allowed to say it outside.
So it creates, you know, a realdilemma for a child. And you get
(32:22):
this, you know, habitualresponse in your system of like,
I'm just gonna freeze ifsomebody asked me something, and
it's no, I'm, like, I'm notgoing to know how to say
anything. I won't know how toanswer at all. Like, it can also
look like indecision, right?
That's so true. Because I thinkabout when if I'm in that state,
where I'm flooded, or whatever.
(32:44):
And I say no. And this issomething I've had to really,
really work on since I've beenmarried.
And it's been a good experiment.
But like, I'll say no. And whenI change my mind, it's usually
because when I'm flooded, Icannot see myself in the
scenario that person's askingwith the resources and the
capacity need to do to do it.
(33:07):
And when he actually asked me tostop saying no, and to take a
minute, and or whatever to gothink about it, I was able to
access that a lot more often oflike, okay, so I know, tomorrow
night, I'm going to be tired.
But like, we're going to beoutside it's fall, it's the
pumpkin patch, or whatever itmay be, you know, and I'm like,
(33:29):
I've done this before, and Ireally enjoy it. But right now,
I just don't feel like it. It'slike I started be able to access
that a little bit more. BecauseI think being neurodivergent,
too. It's like, it's not justknowing the moment even
someone's asking you aboutsomething this weekend.
(33:49):
I can't see myself there yet,unless I got. And if I see
myself it's me doing nothing.
Yeah, it's like, oh, no, no, I'mtired. Yeah, there's not going
to be nothing happening. There'sno scenario in which I'm going
to be rested enough in the nextseven days that I'm going to be
able to, like, in some sensewhen I say yes, it's knowing
full well that I might not wantto do it when the time comes.
(34:12):
And I'm probably going to betired while doing it. Because
that just is life. But yeah,yeah, I, I had a thought and it
just fluttered away. Butoh, I wanted to mention to like
the privilege of being able tosay no, and then, you know,
generationally, and obviouslyrace and socio economic
(34:33):
background and, you know, areyou disabled? Are you poor, what
else is going on in your lifethat might make it so that
saying no, is not an option?
And, you know, I think about thepeople that I work with, who
have so much going on on theirplate and there isn't relief.
(34:57):
There isn't, you know, lots ofresources and supports and
places where they can, like,delegate, you know, and shift
things away from themselves.
There's just a lot of like, mustdo, and must deal with. And I
just want to acknowledge thatfor people whose lives look like
that right now, or, or have ormaybe will in the future that
(35:22):
that is not what we're talkingabout like that is an incredibly
painful place to be in and thereis still room to grow and how
you approach your autonomy andyour ability to know whether you
want to be doing something ornot whether you can.
(35:43):
And just to honor the fact thatyeah, there are times when that
is not possible. And it would beunsafe to say no. And there is a
so much privilege and a lot ofwhat we said in previous
I think about seasons, like whenI was just Jake and I and I was
(36:04):
teaching and I was in that kindof hypervigilant mode all the
time. I don't even thinkthere have not had seasons
before that were I wouldn't haveeven
I probably been frustrated ifsomeone said like, we'll just
say no to it, or can you say noor whatever. Because when you're
in that mode, or if you've neverhad a time period where you've
(36:28):
had access to that, thatwouldn't even go through your
mind, you would be saying yes tothings that like you probably
could say no to there's probablyat least a couple of choices in
there. But even entertain that,but probably wouldn't even be in
your sphere, you know, and it'sa skill and it's exhausting to
exercise it and to learn it, youknow, and if you have no
(36:50):
capacity, or very low or littleand you're surviving, then using
some of your energy to likelearn this new skill might feel
really dismissive of thehardship that you're in the
midst of. And I do still thinkit's worth like being curious
about. But I absolutely am notsaying everybody should and can
(37:14):
do this.
Right away in all thesedifferent areas of their lives.
I mean, I still am like, I ballsdeep and commitments that I'm
exhausted.
That's a good point that it'skind of aimless to think like,
Okay, listen, you know, couldyou say no to this, right? Or,
(37:36):
like, even like, if you have ifyou're neurodivergent person
raising or parenting, aneurodivergent child, and there
are places you could probablysay no, in that, no, you still
have to regulate yourself, youstill have to like, get your
system grounded and be in thatdiscomfort, and then also deal
(37:58):
with whatever the fallout is ofthat situation. This is like
layered, it's not like a no,just like you throw it out there
to the wind, and everythingfalls into place. It's not like,
do you want to supersize that?
You're not the kind of No, we'retalking about? Yeah, we're
talking. It's effortful. Andespecially if for generations,
it's not been available ormodeled, then it's like a brand
(38:19):
new skill. And your brain has tolike create new neural pathways
to be able to do this work. Andthat is possible for everyone.
And it's not always the mostimportant thing right now. Yeah,
(38:40):
yeah. I like what you said, Ithink we could probably end on
that. Like, I agree. I hope thatpeople can at least be curious
about it. Yeah, like, wherecould I say no, don't do like
Sarah did were you just starteverything. What do you think
you want? I mean, you can, butit was stressful. I also was
(39:02):
like, in my early 20s. So youknow, it's like,
the things I was saying no to. Imean, some of them might have
been big, but that's a wholeother conversation. But yeah, it
was a lot of like, No, I'm notgoing to that family thing. No,
I'm not coming. No, I'm nothelping with that.
Yeah. Oh, and yeah, it nothingirritates you more when someone
(39:26):
else has the ability to do someof these skills. And you're over
there trapped in them. Yeah. Ohmy gosh. Yeah. That's like the
conflict between us. Really? Idon't work your shadows over
there like that piece ofyou trash human will
just help a little walkingaround getting up in the morning
(39:49):
telling people no asking you forwhat you want. No one wants to
talk to you. Okay, yeah, justget out of here. All right.
That's it for now. All right.
Love you.
Love you too bye bye
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