September 20, 2024 • 46 mins
Were you allowed to feel embarrassed as a kid? Did you feel it often? We're diving in and finding our own somatic experience with feeling embarrassed.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:02):
This is the sleepy sisters Podcast. I'm Elizabeth
brink, and I'm Sarah Durham,and I realized in the last
episode that one of us wascoughing at the very beginning
of the episode before weintroduced ourselves, probably
you. And it just made me laugh,because I was like, Yeah, we're
not editing this people. We'renot prepared. We just, we just
(00:25):
logged on and we were like, Whatdo you want to talk about today?
We should have just recordedthat part of the conversation.
So we're going to talk aboutdisappointment and embarrassment
and getting embarrassed,especially getting embarrassed
in how it links up withdisappointment and how these
(00:46):
things can produce shame inpeople. This is a theme that I
see in a lot of the work I dowith clients, and I think
probably in my own life, in thepast as well. I think I can
definitely trace lots of storiesof being disappointed, being
(01:07):
embarrassed, being disappointedthat I'm embarrassed, being
embarrassed that I'mdisappointed, just like the they
are surprisingly interconnectedfor me, and I think for a lot of
people, so I thought it would beinteresting for us to kind of
explore a little bit of this.
(01:28):
What's funny is, I think I said,either in an IG live or in
another podcast episode that Idon't get embarrassed, and so
now we're having a whole topicabout it. And here's the thing,
is that I historically have,yes, been embarrassed. I think
(01:50):
that I still do get embarrassed,but I just wanted to say that
I've got plenty of storiesaround being embarrassed. I
think as I get older, it doesn'taffect me the same way. Or maybe
I have enough guard rails up,which may be another problem, to
not put myself in riskysituations that might end up
causing disappointment orembarrassment. Yeah,
(02:12):
I have another theory that couldbe at play some of the time too,
is in somatic experiencing.
There is this idea of couplingdynamics, when things get
connected to each other thatdon't belong together, and then
undercoupling, when things arenot connected but should be. And
it's not a it's not an SE idea.
(02:34):
This is a concept that exists inthe world about a lot of things,
but in trauma work, there isthis idea of things being under
coupled so things like a memoryof being very embarrassed, and
that memory being painful oruncomfortable, and that your
brain has kind of packed it awayas like that never happens to
(02:58):
me. I never get embarrassed.
It's like, actually not on yourradar anymore, because it's been
kind of tucked away and thatwould be considered under
coupled that, like from thistopic of embarrassment, like,
oh, actually, there are somethings that fit in that
category, but they were maybe sopainful or so upsetting or
whatever, that you know, youjust instinctively to protect
(03:19):
yourself from the intensity offeeling that kind of packed it
away. And we're like, okay,let's just set that over there,
and we'll just, yeah,I mean that tracks, because I
when I think about now, myexperience around embarrassment
versus, like, when I wasyounger, like, if I put myself
(03:40):
back into a situation and justhave the memory of it, like back
1213, years old, like that. Ican feel the sensations. Know
what that was like, all of that,right? But when I think about
embarrassment, like, times I'membarrassed now, there's a
different cognitive experienceversus the sensations that are
(04:04):
going on in my body. So thetucking it away tracks that I am
not embodying the fullexperience of embarrassment,
that I have a cognitive trackthat goes through my head that
helps me tuck away those asthose sensations come up, that's
(04:27):
so wild I'm thinking about thatlike this is happening in real
time.
I know I'm so curious, like,what are you experiencing right
now? Is there a sensation comingup? There is
my throat. I want to clear mythroat so I have this thing. And
Elizabeth knows this about, goahead and do it. Okay, so when I
(04:49):
am in a situation where I haveto speak publicly or, you know,
offer up something in a group.
Mean, it just kind of depends onwhat the dynamics are, depends
on what my mental state is, allthat, but it's always around,
using my voice in some way. Whenthis sensation comes up, I feel
the my throat kind of startwanting to clear. I actually
(05:14):
feel like fluid or mucus. Now,I've been sick all week, so it's
definitely I feel that wayalready, but I can feel this
like sensation come up in mythroat sometimes right before I
talk, while I'm talking, andthen I'll go in the throat
(05:35):
clearing bonanza for like anhour afterwards, and it's
interesting because I do have alittle bit of a throat clearing.
I don't want to know. I don'tknow if it's like a stem. I
don't do it all the time, but Ido it enough to where my sisters
(05:55):
obviously notice it and but itis acute when there's a threat
of embarrassment, which is likeso wilding around. But I can
feel that. I can see it in mythroat coming up right now,
yeah,can you just give it what it
(06:17):
wants? Yeah, yeah. How does thatfeel to give it what it wants?
What it wants.
Feels good. It feels good. Howdo you how do you know it feels
good? Because I just relaxed. Itjust relaxed in my throat, nice.
Yeah, so. But it is funnybecause it actually will
(06:39):
sometimes keep me from speaking,because I if I feel that coming
on, it'll keep me from sharing,like in a class or something. I
don't feel this way when I'm oneon one. I don't feel this unless
there's confrontation involved,but like with, when I with my
(07:01):
clients, like this sensation, Idon't feel it. I mean, I feel
very relaxed. But I'm talking toyou guys when, even when I was a
teacher and I was with my groupof students, but you put me in a
group of my peers, where I'mspeaking in front of them, and
depending on my mood and myconfidence level that day, or
whatever. I wouldn't even sayit's totally consistent. I've
(07:24):
never done a deep dive researchproject on myself to see what
the themes are of when itspecifically comes up, if it is
an external thing, like it'sactually like, oh, it's peers,
and it's around this, top thesetopics, or if it's my state, you
know, or if it's like a perfectstorm of both, I'm not really
(07:47):
sure, but I know it's not aconsistent thing, which is very
frustrating, because it becomesunpredictable. And it's not
around things necessarily that Idon't know what I'm talking
about, or that it's like I'mtaking a risk, like there's been
times in like coaching classesor speaking, you know, even
(08:09):
recording, like talks, like fordifferent ADHD things or
whatever, where I knoweverything I'm talking about, I
know I Have a plan, I'm I'm wellversed in a topic, and something
will hit me, right or wrong orwhatever, and all of a sudden I
(08:29):
can feel it, you know, doingthat, and it's absolutely
frustrating, because it doesn'treally feel like a solid
representation, because I guessfor me, there's a there's
something about that reflects alack of confidence, or that I'm
(08:53):
nervous, but because It'sdisconnected from my cognitive
experience, sometimes it'sconfusing because I'm like, This
person doesn't actually make menervous. Like, I don't actually
feel like I care. I'm like,those aren't the thoughts that
are going through my head. Like,oh my gosh. Are they going to
think this or this? It's justphysically happening in my like,
(09:15):
your body is having a differentexperience.
It is. It's like, Imean, it sounds like, tell me if
I'm wrong. It sounds like thereis, like a preemptive
nervousness, or maybe there's afear of being embarrassed by
whatever, like seeming, youknow, like you have a lack of
confidence, or whatever it is.
(09:36):
And then there is this otherlayer of this particular somatic
thing that happens to you isembarrassing.
Yeah, I'm Yeah, I would say yes.
And it's funny, because I thinkabout when I was younger man, I
did a lot of bold stuff, but I,you know, I. One of the common
(09:59):
themes for me was to do kind ofoutlandish things for someone
with my personality and notnecessarily always follow
through. Like, you know, I'mthinking about, I don't know if
I'm going on a tangent here, soI don't want to, we
can't know until we're there.
(10:21):
I'm just, I'm having these likedifferent events run through my
head, of like, Yeah, time periodof like, Early Middle School,
late elementary school, where,you know, I did things like, I
ran for student council, I wentup, I gave this, like, glowing
speech, and did all this stuff,and I got elected, and I never
(10:42):
went to any of the meetings, youknow, like I I went and I
auditioned for a singing part inthis big choir concert in sixth
grade, and I Got it, and I neverwent to the concert.
(11:03):
Really, I've never heard thesestories. Yeah,
it was I the song, sung blue byNeil Diamond, and me and this
other girl got a duet. Well, sheended up doing a solo. So,
because I, but I would do thesethings, of like, just enough to,
like, take the risk and do thething, but something always kept
(11:27):
me from falling through. Andit's just so interesting. That's
the first time I kind ofremember, I was in a jazz class,
and I took all these classes todo a recital, and then I never
did the recital. You know sothis, I don't know if this is
related, but it's what's comingup for. Yeah, interesting. I'm
(11:50):
like, Oh, do you what doyou notice happening?
Somatically, as you'reremembering these things,
I do. I feel pretty light. Imean, I don't feel it makes me
laugh. I mean, I feel a littletension around like, okay,
there's like, a paradox offeelings going on right now.
Like, I feel, you know, I think,because I've written about some
(12:15):
of this stuff, and I've, like,processed a lot of this stuff,
and with my middle startingmiddle school. I've been
thinking more about this stufflately. So there's a little bit
of tension on my ears and myjaw, my shoulders, but more of
me is like, kind of like lightand hearty and just kind of
like, oh my gosh, what a littlepeculiar kid I was. And the
(12:37):
thing is, is that that behavioronly started around that time. I
mean, before then, I was happyto be in the spotlight and,
like, happy to be the, like,teacher's pet and all those
other things. So anyway, sothere is, like, this kind of, I
(12:59):
don't know, I guess what'scoming up for me a little bit,
and I don't know if I'm rightabout this. I haven't processed
this at all, but I wonder if,like, now, when I'm taking risks
or I'm trying things, if thesomatic stop, this thing is the
(13:25):
stop point and not like, where Iwouldn't go to the event, or I
just wouldn't go to the thing. Alot of my risk taking stuff is
now around my voice and talkingand putting myself out there
that way. And if there isn't awe don't have a system for you
to follow through on this. Youknow completely, I don't know.
(13:51):
I'mcurious what's happening right
now with that tension that wasaround your ears and your
shoulders.
Um, I mean, it's there, it'stingly, it's, you know, but it
does, it's not strong, it's notstrong, it's not strong.
And can you tell, does it go,like, down your shoulders, into
(14:13):
your back or into your arms oryour front body?
But everything always goes to mychest. You know that? I mean,
but it doesn't, I don't knowit's not. It's or my jaw. My jaw
is usually the the place whenI'm doing the trying to lighten
(14:39):
up the tension part. Yeah, youknow, when I'm doing the
exercise of, like, going backand forth, that it's usually, if
I'm feeling tense, it's in myjaw. I don't know. It's just so
I don't know how we got on this,but I it's so interesting to me,
because I am a classicallysomeone now will say, I don't
get embarrassed. Mm, hmm, whichis asinine, because it's a human
(15:05):
emotion that everyone goesthrough. And I did spend a lot
of time doing reallyembarrassing stuff when I was a
kid. Or, you know, yeah,sounds like things that I can't
tell if you're saying you feltembarrassed about not following
(15:28):
through At those times, or ifyou have assessed it as that
should have been embarrassing.
I don't know. I mean, yeah, thatit should have been
embarrassing. I don't honestlythink I did feel embarrassed. I
think I just didn't do it. I waslike, I'm not doing that. Like,
(15:49):
I don't have any recollectionof, like, toiling over it in my
like, yeah, you know, I have nomemory of that. Just kind of
like, meh. Like, I got the thingdone I want I got elected. Cool
and then like, but when I lookback, I'm thinking, man, there's
so many things that I there's somany experiences that I only
(16:10):
took halfway. Like what stoppedme? Was it disinterest, or was
it did I not think I was worthy?
Did I not want to be. Was Istarting to I
think it sounds to me like youtook it all the way to the point
you wanted to, like, for you thewhole experience, because you
(16:31):
just said, I got elected cool.
And it just made me think, like,that was the whole way for you.
Yeah, maybe I didn't think aboutwhat came after that and like,
oh, there's meetings I have togo to, like, you know, I have to
do stuff, you know, that I justkind of imposes, like, I want to
get up there and give a speechor whatever. That's totally
(16:53):
true, that that's a goodperspective to think about,
because I'm always now thinkingabout, how am I playing it
small, and how am I, you know,not taking enough risks or
whatever, but maybe I'mmeasuring that by what I see
(17:14):
other people do with differentopportunities and not what I
really want to do. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know ifthat makes sense or not, but
I think what's interesting isthis whole idea around
embarrassment and shame. Youknow that, like embarrassment is
so heavily tied to shoulds andexpectations, right? And I think
(17:41):
that's probably how I see itloop back into being connected
with disappointment, becauseit's related to expectations
that either we think others haveof us or we have of ourselves.
And you know, when you add in,like the giftedness, there's
expectations there about beinggood at things that creates a
lot of confusion and pain for alot of people who are not good
(18:06):
at certain things right away,and so the relationship to
disappointment and embarrassmentand shame can get you know
really well formed early on. Ifsomeone isn't saying to you,
Well, you got what you wantedout of it. You did the part that
you wanted to do. I mean, I havesimilar stories about quitting
(18:29):
things, and I think a lot offolks, especially those who
identify with like an ADHD stylebrain, can relate to not
finishing things, losinginterest, or it getting too
complicated, or not reallyknowing how to prioritize it, or
realizing that it was adistraction from something you
(18:51):
really needed to do, and and Ithink you know, it's interesting
To think about the component ofdisappointment and embarrassment
when I scan back on my own lifeand think about, you know,
quitting dance, quitting piano,quit like because to me, that's
the story. It's not, oh, I tookdance. It's I quit dance, I quit
(19:16):
piano. And you're telling thesestories as I ran for student
council. I did this preparationfor a recital. It's almost like
a different way of seeing thoseevents. And I just think it's
interesting how we kind of tellourselves these stories. We make
meaning out of how it went, orhow other people said it went,
(19:38):
or should have gone. And thenthere is this we have to kind of
deal with shame, which is sosticky. And Kathy Kane is a
somatic expert and talks abouthow shame sticks to things it
doesn't belong to. It's verysticky, and it gets all mixed
up. And I. Uh, and connected toa lot of stuff. And I think, you
(20:03):
know, embarrassment is like thisvisceral experience of shame.
And I know for me,disappointment and expectations
are just like right therelurking in the you know, their
stage left ready to do theirnumber, they're
(20:24):
probably purport embarrassmentis probably proportionate to the
amount of expectations that youare feeling from others and
yourself to the situation right,which is why I said earlier,
like, maybe I'm not puttingmyself in enough, like deeply
risky things, because, you know,maybe the little embarrassment
(20:47):
from this or that is like, and abig deal. But if you are, you
know, like, you'll put yourselfon a stage in front of, you
know, your people, and talkabout a thing and, well, I know,
I don't know you don't getembarrassed with that stuff, do
you?
No, I like it, yeah, Iknow you like it, um, and,
(21:11):
but I could be embarrassed. Icould absolutely get embarrassed
in that setting. Yeah, it Ithink about too. Like I had this
question once, when I was I hada few clients who were kind of
grappling with embarrassment,like just things, stories,
things that had happened, wherethey felt very embarrassed and
(21:34):
and it just had me wondering,like, what if, when we looked at
something that was embarrassing,we asked ourselves, like, well,
is that objectivelyembarrassing, or is it
disappointing? If it's if it'srelated to expectations, it's
like, oh, I didn't meet theexpectations. How embarrassing.
(21:57):
And it's like, well, howdisappointing. And so are we
having trouble experiencingdisappointment? Is embarrassment
easier?
Oh yeah, that's a good point,because they are definitely
different. Because I wasn'tdisappointed that I peed my
pants in the fifth grade. I wasembarrassed. Yeah, right, yeah,
(22:20):
yeah. Yeah, I mean, but giving apresentation and preparing, you
know, and kind of flubbingthrough it, you know, and
knowing you know, not knowingwhy it would be more a
disappointment, because I tookall this time to prepare. I knew
(22:43):
what I was doing, and you knowwhat I'm saying. So I do think
that they are different. I thinkdisappointments hard it is. I
think because we're not weweren't really allowed to be
disappointed. I don't feel likewe were, yeah, I feel like when
we were little, it was, like wealways had, you know, it's like,
(23:04):
you need to have a goodattitude, you can't, you know,
I'm saying, it's, I'mhaving this, like memory pop up
of when I was in my late teens,maybe early 20s, post high
school. And I, I know you'veheard this story, but I was out,
I was out shopping with mom on aSaturday, and it was a few years
after high school, and I hadgained weight, and I had ran
(23:26):
into somebody who I'd gone tohigh school with, and they had a
stroller with a kid in it. Theyhad had a kid, and it was like a
hey, you know, haven't seen along time, or whatever, and they
asked me when I was due, when mybaby was due, essentially, I was
not pregnant. And I got throughthe interaction, and I got up to
(23:53):
the car, and I remember I wassobbing. I mean, I remember
feeling devastated and horrifiedby the interaction and I had
obviously, I had a lifetimeahead of me of contending with
my belly, but in that moment, itwas like the first time someone
(24:13):
else saw it and said somethingthat I felt like was
embarrassing and and layered inthere was my disappointment that
I that I had let my body be likethis, which is ridiculous now,
but um, and I remember becauseSaturdays were like the day we'd
(24:34):
go out, we'd run errands, we'dgo out to lunch, go get some Tex
Mex or whatever. They were likea mom day, often, and I remember
that I was I was crying, andmom's reaction, she was like mad
at me. I think, I'm not sure ifshe was mad at me, but there I
(24:54):
felt like I I was being foolishby being so upset. And I think
she said something like, um, oh,cut it out. Like she, you know,
she kind of thought the wholething was ridiculous. Is kind of
the vibe I got like that it wasridiculous that that person said
that to me and that like, Ishould absolutely not feel as
(25:16):
emotionally hurt as I felt aboutit. And I just remember, like,
sitting in the car, you mighthave even been with us. I can't
remember if I was like I was, Ithink I was in the backseat, and
I remember just crying, and thenfeeling like I shouldn't be
crying. And it was this wholecacophony of confusion, because
(25:37):
it was like, This thing justhappened that was like
horrifying to me. As a 19 or 20year old, I was so embarrassed,
and then I was immediately kindof scolded for responding to my
embarrassment, and I just tuckedit away.
(26:00):
Yeah, yeah. And my immediatelike reaction to that is that
she was trying to rescue youfrom your pain, you know, in
that kind of, like, just swipeit away, like, like, shove it
under the rug, man, just Yeah,yeah, which we know now
(26:23):
obviously, like, we work reallyhard to not do those things, but
yeah, this, that's really sad,because you probably just need
to really, like, have a good cryabout it.
Yeah, I just needed somebody tosay like that. That would feel
so bad to have somebody like,mislabel your body and like,
(26:47):
right? Yeah, yeah. It'sinteresting, because years
later, I think I did work aroundit in therapy, like, I'm not
feeling activation around itright now, which is interesting
too, but, but it ties in so muchto, like a lifetime of a story
of my relationship with my body,including that there is this
piece around disconnecting fromthat somatic experience that
(27:12):
like there's somethinghappening. I'm having a reaction
to this interaction, and I'mbeing told to disrupt it, which
in some places and spaces withhealthy and safe support,
disrupting flooding andoverwhelm is actually a good
(27:33):
idea, right? Like ideally, Iwould have had someone there who
would have helped me calm downwhile attuning and validating
and, you know, like, let me feelthe feeling, but not to the
point where I was, like, sodysregulated and activated that,
you know, that it kind of searedthe experience into my Yeah, to
(27:56):
my system. And I think it is areally good example of just,
like, a kind of an extremeexample of what you were saying,
like, this little tiny bit allalong of, like, you just, like,
why would you be embarrassedabout that? Like, what? It's
ridiculous. That person doesn'tknow what they're talking
about. Yeah, and we know what weresist persists, right? So,
(28:18):
yeah. So I think about that.
What you just said about thebeing scolded me saying not
being allowed to be disappointedor whatever, right to experience
some of those hard things, andthen what I said earlier about
the disconnection between thesensations in my body and what
my cognitive like my messagingsystem, is my brain is saying to
(28:39):
me, like, you're fine. Yeah. Mybody's like, No, I'm not fine.
Yes, yes. And that's like, thatwhole generation that was, was
the line that, like, I think, asI became a parent, I felt like,
I don't want to rush to my kidsside when they are hurting, and
(29:04):
just repeat over and over again,you're fine, you're fine, you're
fine, it's okay, you're okay,you're okay. If you are ever
around kids in public, you willhear people doing this, like,
this is like, still the default,and I think it is one of those
things that does create a lot ofconfusion internally, because
(29:25):
it's not helping me feel likeI'm actually okay.
I watched a whole video withsomeone that you i you follow on
Instagram. She's in somaticexperiencing. She's an expert on
functional freeze. I've talkedthrough like this whole of how
(29:47):
that's functional freeze kind ofgets started. And she gave a
whole example about a kid beingon a bike and falling and being
told that you're okay, and thenhaving to get back on their bike
and.
(35:00):
Just about like the being awareof it initially, not forcing
yourself to complete the thing.
If you get there and you'relike, No, there is resistance
here. This, actually, I don'twant to do this. This doesn't
feel good, like we're not. Don'tpush your body and system to do
something. It's like feelinglike there's a no part of it is
also, you know, honoring thatright, like, that's the other
(35:22):
side of the coin, is when wewere younger, you couldn't back
out of stuff, and so the factthat you did back out all these
things is incredible to me, thatthere's not, like, a really
painful piece of the story of,like, I didn't show up and then
I cried and, you know, Mom andDad were upset with me, or my
teachers, you know, were mad atme. It's like,
(35:46):
I mean, part of that was I wasferal and, like, Mom and Dad
didn't even know I was doinghalf of this stuff. You know,
I'm just, like, running my ownlife here as the eldest sister
and, like, parentified Numberone, you know, I'm saying, well,
that'sa problem in and of itself, but
in this way, it's like, okay,well, you were spared from the
you know that, and that'ssomething like mom and dad, I
think, did well, like they werenot fixated on our performance
(36:06):
in that way. Like there was somefreedom there with that. So it
did not drive us to be excellentin a way that people do now,
that, yeah? Like, I never feltthat pressure, like my grades, I
was were gonna get me introuble. Never felt that. And I
think at the time, I felt likethat meant they didn't care,
(36:28):
because all my friends parentscared about their grades, or it
felt like they did,and just needed the man. I mean,
she was like, not having it. Shewas vocal with me about that,
so,yeah, like, she just actually
believed it was better for ourdevelopment that we not be
Yeah. So there, like, there wasYeah, freedom. I'm also thinking
(36:50):
too about that recent thing thathappened where I did get
embarrassed, and we've talkedabout it before, I think on IG,
live with the class, and I saidsomething, and you were in the
class. You were one of theinstructors in the it was a
coaching seminar, and I did thatthing and got blood. I just
couldn't I was tripping over mywords, and I could feel it
(37:15):
coming out before I saidanything. I was bound and
determined. I was like, You'renot taking overthrowt You're
just not doing it. And it didanyway. And so there was no
gentle, like reminder, likeyou're okay. It was like, you're
going to do this and shut up.
Okay. And so I did it because Ireally wanted to not stop myself
(37:36):
from doing it and then havingyou there. I don't know. I just
got off after we were done, andI turned my camera off, and then
we were done, I just like criedbecause I was embarrassed that
it happened. That's probablylike the most recent experience
(37:56):
where I just kind of pushedmyself through it. So when I
said earlier, like, I'm justgonna make myself do it, that's
what happened last time.
And that won't necessarilyhappen every time, I just think,
like in that moment, you madethe best decision you could. You
were you were with your body,you were okay. I can feel this,
(38:19):
and we're gonna do this. Andthen you let yourself cry after.
And, you know, a big part ofthis is the after. You know,
it's like after, isn't it? Yeah,I mean, we can't prevent, we
can't prevent gettingembarrassed. I mean, this is,
you know, it's a protectivething that happens in our
nervous system. And I think alot of the intensity around
(38:44):
embarrassment and disappointmentis that we do try to avoid it,
and so there's a lot of tensionaround what if I get
embarrassed, and then when I do,I have no capacity for it,
because I have been working sohard not to be put in this
positionand to not feel this, yeah,
totally. But I was just thinkingtoo like I don't feel I also am
(39:06):
proud of the fact that even withmy kind of layered relationship
with embarrassment, is that I'mnever so embarrassed that I
don't apologize, like if I dosomething, I will repair, and
that's a muscle I've had tobuild up over time. But if I say
(39:28):
something boneheaded or my toneor whatever, that I feel
embarrassed, you know how Ishowed up, I don't have a
problem, or parent, I won'tdouble down and get my ego and
get arrogant and just be like,What do you what's your problem?
Because we see that in societyall the time, right? People are
(39:50):
doing things that areembarrassing or they're
shameful, and they double downand they get really protective
and big and more harm. Term. SoI am glad that there I have
softened, and I know you havetoo of like that vulnerability
of there are different, I guessit's it depends on the
(40:12):
situation, but there aresituations where, I guess, if it
has to do with somebody else's,oh, man, it's
so complicated, because I'mif, like, if it has to do with
hurting someone else, yeah,it's, but it's not, it's, it's
not enough for if I just hurtmyself.
(40:33):
I mean, I think the thing is,like, you just can't, you just
can't know how it's going toland in your system and how
you're going to respond. And sothere can be all this, like prep
and mitigation and like tryingto that's
the trauma guys right there.
We're always trying to mitigate,right? Yeah, avoid,
(40:56):
avoid, fix it. And, you know, Ithink part of being human is to
make mistakes, and we live in aworld where making mistakes,
especially if they are known toother people, is a lot more
vulnerable than it needs to be.
And yeah, just don't havethe skills for dealing with
(41:23):
being imperfect and being human,and it lands in our nervous
system in all these nuancedways, and then suddenly we are
someone who makes an honestmistake that how would you have
known kind of mistake? Like, ofcourse, anyone would have made
(41:45):
that mistake, and we're, like,shattered by it, and we're we
feel humiliated, and theresponse is, you know, does not
align to the reality of whathappened, because we just don't
have the skills for coping withimperfection. Yeah.
(42:07):
I mean, it's all thatperfectionism, and I'm just
thinking about the giftednessand gifted folks, littles and
bigs, and the misconceptionsaround giftedness and how it's
just particularly, even morechallenging to make mistakes and
(42:29):
to not know, quote, unquote,everything you're not supposed
to. But there's just so much puton when you are someone who
comes into the world, who's, youknow, progressing faster in
certain areas, and people arenoticing, and then they expect,
you know, I know, like with mymiddle, with Sam, you know, he
(42:56):
has a big defense mechanismaround, And it's shame, and
we're working on it aroundbehavior that isn't perfect
because of the asynchrony oflike being a preteen boy who's
gifted, who is like just lightyears ahead on so many things,
(43:16):
and then emotional regulationall these other things is, you
know, and he knows this, and wetalk about it, but it's a big
gap, right? And so when hedoesn't do something
behaviorally that he feels likea teacher says something, or
(43:37):
whatever, he is in the doubledown right now, and he is in the
Getting big with the kind ofsnapback, snark, kind of
comments, because thatperfectionism feels like it
should be across the board. Andthat's just not how the gifted
mind works, and or any mind,really,
(44:01):
yeah, it's like, how do we buildin more ease around making
mistakes and being embarrassedand, you know, like, I just,
yeah, I think the more we showup as imperfect. I mean, I love
that. This is so meta, that thispodcast, you know, it's
(44:21):
unedited, and we don't preparefor it. And partly because we
can't, with all of that, we justcan't. We would never, y'all
would never hear from us, andmaybe you'd be happy about that,
but,well, you're here, so there's
that, yeah,and, and I think it's important,
like even last week when Iheard, I think it was your
throat clearing thing, which isfunny because then we talked
(44:42):
about it this week, when I heardthat in the recording, at first,
my instinct was like, Oh, Icould have trimmed that off.
Because I do have the abilityand the skills and the stuff to,
like, actually edit these alittle bit, you know. And I'm
like, Oh, it would have justbeen a. Tiny little edit. But
then I just was like, No, thisis the point. Is that we are
(45:03):
embodying, practicing, beingimperfect, and the more we can
do that and be with what comesup in our nervous systems, in
our bodies, around thediscomfort of being imperfect, I
do think the more we can findcapacity for feeling
embarrassed, I think we can easeand soothe that embarrassment
(45:28):
when it comes up. I doexperience less embarrassment in
general.
It's not to not care. And Idon't know if I've said, Oh, I
don't get embarrassed. I don'tthink it's like a badge of,
like, whatever, but I do think,like you do start to get less
embarrassed, you know, as youget older. I think you know,
(45:50):
because, well, it's just like innumbers, like you just doing
stuff all the time. I mean, ifyou got embarrassed all the
time, you would just never comeout of your shell, right?
Because, I mean, things are justhappening out of your control,
into your body, to, like,everything. So I think it's just
a numbers game there. There'sno, like, holding a
(46:12):
a tight ship or whatever. But,yeah, I don't know where that
was gonna go. SoI don't know, but, and we've
been talking a long time, so weshould call it a day, but this
was really interesting. I'm gladwe had this conversation. I'm
gonna be thinking about it.
Yeah? I mean, it's so funny,because these conversations
(46:33):
could go in 100 differentdirections, yeah, just we would
talk more about disappointment,so maybe we do that another
Yeah,because I do think that's a
biggie. Yeah, Ithink they, they do touch on
each other, but I thinkembarrassment was a good place
to start. There's probably morehere too, because there is, but
whatever there's, there alwaysis, because that's the way our
brains work. All right. Loveyou. Love you, too.
(46:56):
Bye, bye.
This is the sleepy sisters Podcast. I'm Elizabeth
brink, and I'm Sarah Durham,and I realized in the last
episode that one of us wascoughing at the very beginning
of the episode before weintroduced ourselves, probably
you. And it just made me laugh,because I was like, Yeah, we're
not editing this people. We'renot prepared. We just, we just
(00:25):
logged on and we were like, Whatdo you want to talk about today?
We should have just recordedthat part of the conversation.
So we're going to talk aboutdisappointment and embarrassment
and getting embarrassed,especially getting embarrassed
in how it links up withdisappointment and how these
(00:46):
things can produce shame inpeople. This is a theme that I
see in a lot of the work I dowith clients, and I think
probably in my own life, in thepast as well. I think I can
definitely trace lots of storiesof being disappointed, being
(01:07):
embarrassed, being disappointedthat I'm embarrassed, being
embarrassed that I'mdisappointed, just like the they
are surprisingly interconnectedfor me, and I think for a lot of
people, so I thought it would beinteresting for us to kind of
explore a little bit of this.
(01:28):
What's funny is, I think I said,either in an IG live or in
another podcast episode that Idon't get embarrassed, and so
now we're having a whole topicabout it. And here's the thing,
is that I historically have,yes, been embarrassed. I think
(01:50):
that I still do get embarrassed,but I just wanted to say that
I've got plenty of storiesaround being embarrassed. I
think as I get older, it doesn'taffect me the same way. Or maybe
I have enough guard rails up,which may be another problem, to
not put myself in riskysituations that might end up
causing disappointment orembarrassment. Yeah,
(02:12):
I have another theory that couldbe at play some of the time too,
is in somatic experiencing.
There is this idea of couplingdynamics, when things get
connected to each other thatdon't belong together, and then
undercoupling, when things arenot connected but should be. And
it's not a it's not an SE idea.
(02:34):
This is a concept that exists inthe world about a lot of things,
but in trauma work, there isthis idea of things being under
coupled so things like a memoryof being very embarrassed, and
that memory being painful oruncomfortable, and that your
brain has kind of packed it awayas like that never happens to
(02:58):
me. I never get embarrassed.
It's like, actually not on yourradar anymore, because it's been
kind of tucked away and thatwould be considered under
coupled that, like from thistopic of embarrassment, like,
oh, actually, there are somethings that fit in that
category, but they were maybe sopainful or so upsetting or
whatever, that you know, youjust instinctively to protect
(03:19):
yourself from the intensity offeeling that kind of packed it
away. And we're like, okay,let's just set that over there,
and we'll just, yeah,I mean that tracks, because I
when I think about now, myexperience around embarrassment
versus, like, when I wasyounger, like, if I put myself
(03:40):
back into a situation and justhave the memory of it, like back
1213, years old, like that. Ican feel the sensations. Know
what that was like, all of that,right? But when I think about
embarrassment, like, times I'membarrassed now, there's a
different cognitive experienceversus the sensations that are
(04:04):
going on in my body. So thetucking it away tracks that I am
not embodying the fullexperience of embarrassment,
that I have a cognitive trackthat goes through my head that
helps me tuck away those asthose sensations come up, that's
(04:27):
so wild I'm thinking about thatlike this is happening in real
time.
I know I'm so curious, like,what are you experiencing right
now? Is there a sensation comingup? There is
my throat. I want to clear mythroat so I have this thing. And
Elizabeth knows this about, goahead and do it. Okay, so when I
(04:49):
am in a situation where I haveto speak publicly or, you know,
offer up something in a group.
Mean, it just kind of depends onwhat the dynamics are, depends
on what my mental state is, allthat, but it's always around,
using my voice in some way. Whenthis sensation comes up, I feel
the my throat kind of startwanting to clear. I actually
(05:14):
feel like fluid or mucus. Now,I've been sick all week, so it's
definitely I feel that wayalready, but I can feel this
like sensation come up in mythroat sometimes right before I
talk, while I'm talking, andthen I'll go in the throat
(05:35):
clearing bonanza for like anhour afterwards, and it's
interesting because I do have alittle bit of a throat clearing.
I don't want to know. I don'tknow if it's like a stem. I
don't do it all the time, but Ido it enough to where my sisters
(05:55):
obviously notice it and but itis acute when there's a threat
of embarrassment, which is likeso wilding around. But I can
feel that. I can see it in mythroat coming up right now,
yeah,can you just give it what it
(06:17):
wants? Yeah, yeah. How does thatfeel to give it what it wants?
What it wants.
Feels good. It feels good. Howdo you how do you know it feels
good? Because I just relaxed. Itjust relaxed in my throat, nice.
Yeah, so. But it is funnybecause it actually will
(06:39):
sometimes keep me from speaking,because I if I feel that coming
on, it'll keep me from sharing,like in a class or something. I
don't feel this way when I'm oneon one. I don't feel this unless
there's confrontation involved,but like with, when I with my
(07:01):
clients, like this sensation, Idon't feel it. I mean, I feel
very relaxed. But I'm talking toyou guys when, even when I was a
teacher and I was with my groupof students, but you put me in a
group of my peers, where I'mspeaking in front of them, and
depending on my mood and myconfidence level that day, or
whatever. I wouldn't even sayit's totally consistent. I've
(07:24):
never done a deep dive researchproject on myself to see what
the themes are of when itspecifically comes up, if it is
an external thing, like it'sactually like, oh, it's peers,
and it's around this, top thesetopics, or if it's my state, you
know, or if it's like a perfectstorm of both, I'm not really
(07:47):
sure, but I know it's not aconsistent thing, which is very
frustrating, because it becomesunpredictable. And it's not
around things necessarily that Idon't know what I'm talking
about, or that it's like I'mtaking a risk, like there's been
times in like coaching classesor speaking, you know, even
(08:09):
recording, like talks, like fordifferent ADHD things or
whatever, where I knoweverything I'm talking about, I
know I Have a plan, I'm I'm wellversed in a topic, and something
will hit me, right or wrong orwhatever, and all of a sudden I
(08:29):
can feel it, you know, doingthat, and it's absolutely
frustrating, because it doesn'treally feel like a solid
representation, because I guessfor me, there's a there's
something about that reflects alack of confidence, or that I'm
(08:53):
nervous, but because It'sdisconnected from my cognitive
experience, sometimes it'sconfusing because I'm like, This
person doesn't actually make menervous. Like, I don't actually
feel like I care. I'm like,those aren't the thoughts that
are going through my head. Like,oh my gosh. Are they going to
think this or this? It's justphysically happening in my like,
(09:15):
your body is having a differentexperience.
It is. It's like, Imean, it sounds like, tell me if
I'm wrong. It sounds like thereis, like a preemptive
nervousness, or maybe there's afear of being embarrassed by
whatever, like seeming, youknow, like you have a lack of
confidence, or whatever it is.
(09:36):
And then there is this otherlayer of this particular somatic
thing that happens to you isembarrassing.
Yeah, I'm Yeah, I would say yes.
And it's funny, because I thinkabout when I was younger man, I
did a lot of bold stuff, but I,you know, I. One of the common
(09:59):
themes for me was to do kind ofoutlandish things for someone
with my personality and notnecessarily always follow
through. Like, you know, I'mthinking about, I don't know if
I'm going on a tangent here, soI don't want to, we
can't know until we're there.
(10:21):
I'm just, I'm having these likedifferent events run through my
head, of like, Yeah, time periodof like, Early Middle School,
late elementary school, where,you know, I did things like, I
ran for student council, I wentup, I gave this, like, glowing
speech, and did all this stuff,and I got elected, and I never
(10:42):
went to any of the meetings, youknow, like I I went and I
auditioned for a singing part inthis big choir concert in sixth
grade, and I Got it, and I neverwent to the concert.
(11:03):
Really, I've never heard thesestories. Yeah,
it was I the song, sung blue byNeil Diamond, and me and this
other girl got a duet. Well, sheended up doing a solo. So,
because I, but I would do thesethings, of like, just enough to,
like, take the risk and do thething, but something always kept
(11:27):
me from falling through. Andit's just so interesting. That's
the first time I kind ofremember, I was in a jazz class,
and I took all these classes todo a recital, and then I never
did the recital. You know sothis, I don't know if this is
related, but it's what's comingup for. Yeah, interesting. I'm
(11:50):
like, Oh, do you what doyou notice happening?
Somatically, as you'reremembering these things,
I do. I feel pretty light. Imean, I don't feel it makes me
laugh. I mean, I feel a littletension around like, okay,
there's like, a paradox offeelings going on right now.
Like, I feel, you know, I think,because I've written about some
(12:15):
of this stuff, and I've, like,processed a lot of this stuff,
and with my middle startingmiddle school. I've been
thinking more about this stufflately. So there's a little bit
of tension on my ears and myjaw, my shoulders, but more of
me is like, kind of like lightand hearty and just kind of
like, oh my gosh, what a littlepeculiar kid I was. And the
(12:37):
thing is, is that that behavioronly started around that time. I
mean, before then, I was happyto be in the spotlight and,
like, happy to be the, like,teacher's pet and all those
other things. So anyway, sothere is, like, this kind of, I
(12:59):
don't know, I guess what'scoming up for me a little bit,
and I don't know if I'm rightabout this. I haven't processed
this at all, but I wonder if,like, now, when I'm taking risks
or I'm trying things, if thesomatic stop, this thing is the
(13:25):
stop point and not like, where Iwouldn't go to the event, or I
just wouldn't go to the thing. Alot of my risk taking stuff is
now around my voice and talkingand putting myself out there
that way. And if there isn't awe don't have a system for you
to follow through on this. Youknow completely, I don't know.
(13:51):
I'mcurious what's happening right
now with that tension that wasaround your ears and your
shoulders.
Um, I mean, it's there, it'stingly, it's, you know, but it
does, it's not strong, it's notstrong, it's not strong.
And can you tell, does it go,like, down your shoulders, into
(14:13):
your back or into your arms oryour front body?
But everything always goes to mychest. You know that? I mean,
but it doesn't, I don't knowit's not. It's or my jaw. My jaw
is usually the the place whenI'm doing the trying to lighten
(14:39):
up the tension part. Yeah, youknow, when I'm doing the
exercise of, like, going backand forth, that it's usually, if
I'm feeling tense, it's in myjaw. I don't know. It's just so
I don't know how we got on this,but I it's so interesting to me,
because I am a classicallysomeone now will say, I don't
get embarrassed. Mm, hmm, whichis asinine, because it's a human
(15:05):
emotion that everyone goesthrough. And I did spend a lot
of time doing reallyembarrassing stuff when I was a
kid. Or, you know, yeah,sounds like things that I can't
tell if you're saying you feltembarrassed about not following
(15:28):
through At those times, or ifyou have assessed it as that
should have been embarrassing.
I don't know. I mean, yeah, thatit should have been
embarrassing. I don't honestlythink I did feel embarrassed. I
think I just didn't do it. I waslike, I'm not doing that. Like,
(15:49):
I don't have any recollectionof, like, toiling over it in my
like, yeah, you know, I have nomemory of that. Just kind of
like, meh. Like, I got the thingdone I want I got elected. Cool
and then like, but when I lookback, I'm thinking, man, there's
so many things that I there's somany experiences that I only
(16:10):
took halfway. Like what stoppedme? Was it disinterest, or was
it did I not think I was worthy?
Did I not want to be. Was Istarting to I
think it sounds to me like youtook it all the way to the point
you wanted to, like, for you thewhole experience, because you
(16:31):
just said, I got elected cool.
And it just made me think, like,that was the whole way for you.
Yeah, maybe I didn't think aboutwhat came after that and like,
oh, there's meetings I have togo to, like, you know, I have to
do stuff, you know, that I justkind of imposes, like, I want to
get up there and give a speechor whatever. That's totally
(16:53):
true, that that's a goodperspective to think about,
because I'm always now thinkingabout, how am I playing it
small, and how am I, you know,not taking enough risks or
whatever, but maybe I'mmeasuring that by what I see
(17:14):
other people do with differentopportunities and not what I
really want to do. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know ifthat makes sense or not, but
I think what's interesting isthis whole idea around
embarrassment and shame. Youknow that, like embarrassment is
so heavily tied to shoulds andexpectations, right? And I think
(17:41):
that's probably how I see itloop back into being connected
with disappointment, becauseit's related to expectations
that either we think others haveof us or we have of ourselves.
And you know, when you add in,like the giftedness, there's
expectations there about beinggood at things that creates a
lot of confusion and pain for alot of people who are not good
(18:06):
at certain things right away,and so the relationship to
disappointment and embarrassmentand shame can get you know
really well formed early on. Ifsomeone isn't saying to you,
Well, you got what you wantedout of it. You did the part that
you wanted to do. I mean, I havesimilar stories about quitting
(18:29):
things, and I think a lot offolks, especially those who
identify with like an ADHD stylebrain, can relate to not
finishing things, losinginterest, or it getting too
complicated, or not reallyknowing how to prioritize it, or
realizing that it was adistraction from something you
(18:51):
really needed to do, and and Ithink you know, it's interesting
To think about the component ofdisappointment and embarrassment
when I scan back on my own lifeand think about, you know,
quitting dance, quitting piano,quit like because to me, that's
the story. It's not, oh, I tookdance. It's I quit dance, I quit
(19:16):
piano. And you're telling thesestories as I ran for student
council. I did this preparationfor a recital. It's almost like
a different way of seeing thoseevents. And I just think it's
interesting how we kind of tellourselves these stories. We make
meaning out of how it went, orhow other people said it went,
(19:38):
or should have gone. And thenthere is this we have to kind of
deal with shame, which is sosticky. And Kathy Kane is a
somatic expert and talks abouthow shame sticks to things it
doesn't belong to. It's verysticky, and it gets all mixed
up. And I. Uh, and connected toa lot of stuff. And I think, you
(20:03):
know, embarrassment is like thisvisceral experience of shame.
And I know for me,disappointment and expectations
are just like right therelurking in the you know, their
stage left ready to do theirnumber, they're
(20:24):
probably purport embarrassmentis probably proportionate to the
amount of expectations that youare feeling from others and
yourself to the situation right,which is why I said earlier,
like, maybe I'm not puttingmyself in enough, like deeply
risky things, because, you know,maybe the little embarrassment
(20:47):
from this or that is like, and abig deal. But if you are, you
know, like, you'll put yourselfon a stage in front of, you
know, your people, and talkabout a thing and, well, I know,
I don't know you don't getembarrassed with that stuff, do
you?
No, I like it, yeah, Iknow you like it, um, and,
(21:11):
but I could be embarrassed. Icould absolutely get embarrassed
in that setting. Yeah, it Ithink about too. Like I had this
question once, when I was I hada few clients who were kind of
grappling with embarrassment,like just things, stories,
things that had happened, wherethey felt very embarrassed and
(21:34):
and it just had me wondering,like, what if, when we looked at
something that was embarrassing,we asked ourselves, like, well,
is that objectivelyembarrassing, or is it
disappointing? If it's if it'srelated to expectations, it's
like, oh, I didn't meet theexpectations. How embarrassing.
(21:57):
And it's like, well, howdisappointing. And so are we
having trouble experiencingdisappointment? Is embarrassment
easier?
Oh yeah, that's a good point,because they are definitely
different. Because I wasn'tdisappointed that I peed my
pants in the fifth grade. I wasembarrassed. Yeah, right, yeah,
(22:20):
yeah. Yeah, I mean, but giving apresentation and preparing, you
know, and kind of flubbingthrough it, you know, and
knowing you know, not knowingwhy it would be more a
disappointment, because I tookall this time to prepare. I knew
(22:43):
what I was doing, and you knowwhat I'm saying. So I do think
that they are different. I thinkdisappointments hard it is. I
think because we're not weweren't really allowed to be
disappointed. I don't feel likewe were, yeah, I feel like when
we were little, it was, like wealways had, you know, it's like,
(23:04):
you need to have a goodattitude, you can't, you know,
I'm saying, it's, I'mhaving this, like memory pop up
of when I was in my late teens,maybe early 20s, post high
school. And I, I know you'veheard this story, but I was out,
I was out shopping with mom on aSaturday, and it was a few years
after high school, and I hadgained weight, and I had ran
(23:26):
into somebody who I'd gone tohigh school with, and they had a
stroller with a kid in it. Theyhad had a kid, and it was like a
hey, you know, haven't seen along time, or whatever, and they
asked me when I was due, when mybaby was due, essentially, I was
not pregnant. And I got throughthe interaction, and I got up to
(23:53):
the car, and I remember I wassobbing. I mean, I remember
feeling devastated and horrifiedby the interaction and I had
obviously, I had a lifetimeahead of me of contending with
my belly, but in that moment, itwas like the first time someone
(24:13):
else saw it and said somethingthat I felt like was
embarrassing and and layered inthere was my disappointment that
I that I had let my body be likethis, which is ridiculous now,
but um, and I remember becauseSaturdays were like the day we'd
(24:34):
go out, we'd run errands, we'dgo out to lunch, go get some Tex
Mex or whatever. They were likea mom day, often, and I remember
that I was I was crying, andmom's reaction, she was like mad
at me. I think, I'm not sure ifshe was mad at me, but there I
(24:54):
felt like I I was being foolishby being so upset. And I think
she said something like, um, oh,cut it out. Like she, you know,
she kind of thought the wholething was ridiculous. Is kind of
the vibe I got like that it wasridiculous that that person said
that to me and that like, Ishould absolutely not feel as
(25:16):
emotionally hurt as I felt aboutit. And I just remember, like,
sitting in the car, you mighthave even been with us. I can't
remember if I was like I was, Ithink I was in the backseat, and
I remember just crying, and thenfeeling like I shouldn't be
crying. And it was this wholecacophony of confusion, because
(25:37):
it was like, This thing justhappened that was like
horrifying to me. As a 19 or 20year old, I was so embarrassed,
and then I was immediately kindof scolded for responding to my
embarrassment, and I just tuckedit away.
(26:00):
Yeah, yeah. And my immediatelike reaction to that is that
she was trying to rescue youfrom your pain, you know, in
that kind of, like, just swipeit away, like, like, shove it
under the rug, man, just Yeah,yeah, which we know now
(26:23):
obviously, like, we work reallyhard to not do those things, but
yeah, this, that's really sad,because you probably just need
to really, like, have a good cryabout it.
Yeah, I just needed somebody tosay like that. That would feel
so bad to have somebody like,mislabel your body and like,
(26:47):
right? Yeah, yeah. It'sinteresting, because years
later, I think I did work aroundit in therapy, like, I'm not
feeling activation around itright now, which is interesting
too, but, but it ties in so muchto, like a lifetime of a story
of my relationship with my body,including that there is this
piece around disconnecting fromthat somatic experience that
(27:12):
like there's somethinghappening. I'm having a reaction
to this interaction, and I'mbeing told to disrupt it, which
in some places and spaces withhealthy and safe support,
disrupting flooding andoverwhelm is actually a good
(27:33):
idea, right? Like ideally, Iwould have had someone there who
would have helped me calm downwhile attuning and validating
and, you know, like, let me feelthe feeling, but not to the
point where I was, like, sodysregulated and activated that,
you know, that it kind of searedthe experience into my Yeah, to
(27:56):
my system. And I think it is areally good example of just,
like, a kind of an extremeexample of what you were saying,
like, this little tiny bit allalong of, like, you just, like,
why would you be embarrassedabout that? Like, what? It's
ridiculous. That person doesn'tknow what they're talking
about. Yeah, and we know what weresist persists, right? So,
(28:18):
yeah. So I think about that.
What you just said about thebeing scolded me saying not
being allowed to be disappointedor whatever, right to experience
some of those hard things, andthen what I said earlier about
the disconnection between thesensations in my body and what
my cognitive like my messagingsystem, is my brain is saying to
(28:39):
me, like, you're fine. Yeah. Mybody's like, No, I'm not fine.
Yes, yes. And that's like, thatwhole generation that was, was
the line that, like, I think, asI became a parent, I felt like,
I don't want to rush to my kidsside when they are hurting, and
(29:04):
just repeat over and over again,you're fine, you're fine, you're
fine, it's okay, you're okay,you're okay. If you are ever
around kids in public, you willhear people doing this, like,
this is like, still the default,and I think it is one of those
things that does create a lot ofconfusion internally, because
(29:25):
it's not helping me feel likeI'm actually okay.
I watched a whole video withsomeone that you i you follow on
Instagram. She's in somaticexperiencing. She's an expert on
functional freeze. I've talkedthrough like this whole of how
(29:47):
that's functional freeze kind ofgets started. And she gave a
whole example about a kid beingon a bike and falling and being
told that you're okay, and thenhaving to get back on their bike
and.
(35:00):
Just about like the being awareof it initially, not forcing
yourself to complete the thing.
If you get there and you'relike, No, there is resistance
here. This, actually, I don'twant to do this. This doesn't
feel good, like we're not. Don'tpush your body and system to do
something. It's like feelinglike there's a no part of it is
also, you know, honoring thatright, like, that's the other
(35:22):
side of the coin, is when wewere younger, you couldn't back
out of stuff, and so the factthat you did back out all these
things is incredible to me, thatthere's not, like, a really
painful piece of the story of,like, I didn't show up and then
I cried and, you know, Mom andDad were upset with me, or my
teachers, you know, were mad atme. It's like,
(35:46):
I mean, part of that was I wasferal and, like, Mom and Dad
didn't even know I was doinghalf of this stuff. You know,
I'm just, like, running my ownlife here as the eldest sister
and, like, parentified Numberone, you know, I'm saying, well,
that'sa problem in and of itself, but
in this way, it's like, okay,well, you were spared from the
you know that, and that'ssomething like mom and dad, I
think, did well, like they werenot fixated on our performance
(36:06):
in that way. Like there was somefreedom there with that. So it
did not drive us to be excellentin a way that people do now,
that, yeah? Like, I never feltthat pressure, like my grades, I
was were gonna get me introuble. Never felt that. And I
think at the time, I felt likethat meant they didn't care,
(36:28):
because all my friends parentscared about their grades, or it
felt like they did,and just needed the man. I mean,
she was like, not having it. Shewas vocal with me about that,
so,yeah, like, she just actually
believed it was better for ourdevelopment that we not be
Yeah. So there, like, there wasYeah, freedom. I'm also thinking
(36:50):
too about that recent thing thathappened where I did get
embarrassed, and we've talkedabout it before, I think on IG,
live with the class, and I saidsomething, and you were in the
class. You were one of theinstructors in the it was a
coaching seminar, and I did thatthing and got blood. I just
couldn't I was tripping over mywords, and I could feel it
(37:15):
coming out before I saidanything. I was bound and
determined. I was like, You'renot taking overthrowt You're
just not doing it. And it didanyway. And so there was no
gentle, like reminder, likeyou're okay. It was like, you're
going to do this and shut up.
Okay. And so I did it because Ireally wanted to not stop myself
(37:36):
from doing it and then havingyou there. I don't know. I just
got off after we were done, andI turned my camera off, and then
we were done, I just like criedbecause I was embarrassed that
it happened. That's probablylike the most recent experience
(37:56):
where I just kind of pushedmyself through it. So when I
said earlier, like, I'm justgonna make myself do it, that's
what happened last time.
And that won't necessarilyhappen every time, I just think,
like in that moment, you madethe best decision you could. You
were you were with your body,you were okay. I can feel this,
(38:19):
and we're gonna do this. Andthen you let yourself cry after.
And, you know, a big part ofthis is the after. You know,
it's like after, isn't it? Yeah,I mean, we can't prevent, we
can't prevent gettingembarrassed. I mean, this is,
you know, it's a protectivething that happens in our
nervous system. And I think alot of the intensity around
(38:44):
embarrassment and disappointmentis that we do try to avoid it,
and so there's a lot of tensionaround what if I get
embarrassed, and then when I do,I have no capacity for it,
because I have been working sohard not to be put in this
positionand to not feel this, yeah,
totally. But I was just thinkingtoo like I don't feel I also am
(39:06):
proud of the fact that even withmy kind of layered relationship
with embarrassment, is that I'mnever so embarrassed that I
don't apologize, like if I dosomething, I will repair, and
that's a muscle I've had tobuild up over time. But if I say
(39:28):
something boneheaded or my toneor whatever, that I feel
embarrassed, you know how Ishowed up, I don't have a
problem, or parent, I won'tdouble down and get my ego and
get arrogant and just be like,What do you what's your problem?
Because we see that in societyall the time, right? People are
(39:50):
doing things that areembarrassing or they're
shameful, and they double downand they get really protective
and big and more harm. Term. SoI am glad that there I have
softened, and I know you havetoo of like that vulnerability
of there are different, I guessit's it depends on the
(40:12):
situation, but there aresituations where, I guess, if it
has to do with somebody else's,oh, man, it's
so complicated, because I'mif, like, if it has to do with
hurting someone else, yeah,it's, but it's not, it's, it's
not enough for if I just hurtmyself.
(40:33):
I mean, I think the thing is,like, you just can't, you just
can't know how it's going toland in your system and how
you're going to respond. And sothere can be all this, like prep
and mitigation and like tryingto that's
the trauma guys right there.
We're always trying to mitigate,right? Yeah, avoid,
(40:56):
avoid, fix it. And, you know, Ithink part of being human is to
make mistakes, and we live in aworld where making mistakes,
especially if they are known toother people, is a lot more
vulnerable than it needs to be.
And yeah, just don't havethe skills for dealing with
(41:23):
being imperfect and being human,and it lands in our nervous
system in all these nuancedways, and then suddenly we are
someone who makes an honestmistake that how would you have
known kind of mistake? Like, ofcourse, anyone would have made
(41:45):
that mistake, and we're, like,shattered by it, and we're we
feel humiliated, and theresponse is, you know, does not
align to the reality of whathappened, because we just don't
have the skills for coping withimperfection. Yeah.
(42:07):
I mean, it's all thatperfectionism, and I'm just
thinking about the giftednessand gifted folks, littles and
bigs, and the misconceptionsaround giftedness and how it's
just particularly, even morechallenging to make mistakes and
(42:29):
to not know, quote, unquote,everything you're not supposed
to. But there's just so much puton when you are someone who
comes into the world, who's, youknow, progressing faster in
certain areas, and people arenoticing, and then they expect,
you know, I know, like with mymiddle, with Sam, you know, he
(42:56):
has a big defense mechanismaround, And it's shame, and
we're working on it aroundbehavior that isn't perfect
because of the asynchrony oflike being a preteen boy who's
gifted, who is like just lightyears ahead on so many things,
(43:16):
and then emotional regulationall these other things is, you
know, and he knows this, and wetalk about it, but it's a big
gap, right? And so when hedoesn't do something
behaviorally that he feels likea teacher says something, or
(43:37):
whatever, he is in the doubledown right now, and he is in the
Getting big with the kind ofsnapback, snark, kind of
comments, because thatperfectionism feels like it
should be across the board. Andthat's just not how the gifted
mind works, and or any mind,really,
(44:01):
yeah, it's like, how do we buildin more ease around making
mistakes and being embarrassedand, you know, like, I just,
yeah, I think the more we showup as imperfect. I mean, I love
that. This is so meta, that thispodcast, you know, it's
(44:21):
unedited, and we don't preparefor it. And partly because we
can't, with all of that, we justcan't. We would never, y'all
would never hear from us, andmaybe you'd be happy about that,
but,well, you're here, so there's
that, yeah,and, and I think it's important,
like even last week when Iheard, I think it was your
throat clearing thing, which isfunny because then we talked
(44:42):
about it this week, when I heardthat in the recording, at first,
my instinct was like, Oh, Icould have trimmed that off.
Because I do have the abilityand the skills and the stuff to,
like, actually edit these alittle bit, you know. And I'm
like, Oh, it would have justbeen a. Tiny little edit. But
then I just was like, No, thisis the point. Is that we are
(45:03):
embodying, practicing, beingimperfect, and the more we can
do that and be with what comesup in our nervous systems, in
our bodies, around thediscomfort of being imperfect, I
do think the more we can findcapacity for feeling
embarrassed, I think we can easeand soothe that embarrassment
(45:28):
when it comes up. I doexperience less embarrassment in
general.
It's not to not care. And Idon't know if I've said, Oh, I
don't get embarrassed. I don'tthink it's like a badge of,
like, whatever, but I do think,like you do start to get less
embarrassed, you know, as youget older. I think you know,
(45:50):
because, well, it's just like innumbers, like you just doing
stuff all the time. I mean, ifyou got embarrassed all the
time, you would just never comeout of your shell, right?
Because, I mean, things are justhappening out of your control,
into your body, to, like,everything. So I think it's just
a numbers game there. There'sno, like, holding a
(46:12):
a tight ship or whatever. But,yeah, I don't know where that
was gonna go. SoI don't know, but, and we've
been talking a long time, so weshould call it a day, but this
was really interesting. I'm gladwe had this conversation. I'm
gonna be thinking about it.
Yeah? I mean, it's so funny,because these conversations
(46:33):
could go in 100 differentdirections, yeah, just we would
talk more about disappointment,so maybe we do that another
Yeah,because I do think that's a
biggie. Yeah, Ithink they, they do touch on
each other, but I thinkembarrassment was a good place
to start. There's probably morehere too, because there is, but
whatever there's, there alwaysis, because that's the way our
brains work. All right. Loveyou. Love you, too.
(46:56):
Bye, bye.
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