November 30, 2024 • 43 mins
Let's talk about how communication helps build intimacy AND how hard it is to do in relationships that really matter to you.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
www.thrivingsistercoaching.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
This. What were you saying?
(00:05):
I was like, this is thedefinition of winging it. Yeah,
unprepared,last minute, no prep. This is
the sleepy sisters Podcast. I'mElizabeth brink,
and I'm Sarah Durham,and we just decided to hop on
and chat today aboutcommunication in relationships,
and I didn't know what you'retalking
(00:29):
about, and I said, What are wetalking about? And she said,
couples communication like I betthere's a story there.
What? No, I just have topicsthat just come to me
with the holidays and familybeing there and all of that. No,
(00:49):
no, please don't help me. Sorry.
Anyway, yeah, so yes, I havethis on my mind, partly, mostly,
because Cory and I have startedcouples therapy, and we've never
done it before, and we'll becelebrating 10 years married in
(01:12):
January, and it's been reallyinteresting. What's funny is
that I started out by reachingout to this therapist who we had
met at an event, and both of usreally liked this person, and so
I reached out and was like, wehave individual therapists.
Like, I'm doing all thesetrainings. We're gonna be really
(01:34):
fun to work with.
Oh, God, I don't know why I saidit. It was like, we go, right?
You know how to do therapy?
Okay,yes. But then we went in for
like, second session, and itwas, like, the day after the
election, and we got in a fighton the way to the to the office,
(01:54):
and we got there, and it justkeeps ringing in my head. Me,
having written these words, Ithink we'd be really fun to work
with. I'm like, we this is,like, no, what does that mean to
be fun to work with? You mean,because you have, like, fun
problems and you're ready to digin and, yeah, kind of like, I'm
(02:18):
self aware and yeah, like, Ithink about when I have clients
that come in, and they're theyunderstand kind of how this
works, and they have some stuffthat they know they want to work
on, and they're really open toself reflection, right? Like,
there's these elements that makesomebody, yeah, perfect. Fun to
work with.
(02:42):
Ready to dig in. Be curious,yeah, yeah, absolutely. It does
make a huge difference.
They know how to partner withthe practitioner, like they
Yeah, and so I think I had thatkind of in in mind, but like, it
just keeps ringing in my headbecause it's like, did I say
that? Because there's a lotabout what we're bringing that
(03:04):
doesn't feel fun at all. Andwe're meeting this guy like
midweek, at six o'clock in theevening, and so also thinking
about how he's ending his day.
These people he thought weregoing to be fun, but here we
are. Well,what makes you think you're not
fun? Iknow I think, yeah, anyway, it's
been really good experience.
(03:26):
It's only been, like a month anda half that we've been going but
I think one of the things Ididn't expect was getting to
kind of observe my significantother in this like, vulnerable
state and processing with apractitioner and like, it's
(03:46):
really neat to, like, bearwitness to the moments when,
like, they are connecting andtalking about something. It just
like, makes me see Coreydifferently. I don't know it's
it is a surprising benefit is,like, also being in each other's
presence when we're working onstuff, because we don't go to
(04:07):
each other's therapy. You know,absolutely, I think anytime you
get a chance to be in any typeof community with your
significant other, and you'reyou get to be an observer of,
like, not just the vulnerableparts, but guess that, and then
also their funny parts and theircharismatic and all of that and
so. And I think when you havestuff that you're working on,
(04:31):
which is everybody for all time,okay, I think it probably, I
mean, I just think some of thestuff that we've done together
in the past as a couple in thisarea, there is a hopefulness and
kind of, when you see themwilling to kind of dig or lean
(04:55):
into that. I. Which may not showup in arguments, or when there's
conflict, because no one is ifspace is like for that to
happen, because the dynamic isjust what it is. Yeah, it's you
see them differently. You seeyour conflict differently. You
(05:16):
see how they're trying to showup in the best way, because
we've always made, I mean, Iknow for myself. Can you make
these judgments about, oh, I'mover here doing the work, okay?
And then, you know, and theycould be too, but it's the
dynamic is a whole otherorganism, yeah? So that's really
(05:37):
sometimes very difficult tocarve out as a couple in your
home with all of the pressures.
So when you see them working onstuff, you're like, oh, yeah,
okay. Like, man, why can't I seethis more at home? And well,
there's probably a differentreason. I would love to go to
(06:01):
couples therapy. I think that isdefinitely on my list of to do's
we did, like, marriage thing,you know, right before COVID
happened, where it was, like ameeting with, like, couples and
stuff like that. And it wasreally, really good for our
marriage. And I think because ofwhat you just described, like,
(06:22):
watching my partner admit hisshortcomings for other people in
a vulnerable way and be upsetabout it. You know, you don't
always see that. A lot of timesthere's defensiveness wrapped
around that and things likethat, and you're like, okay,
(06:43):
yeah, like this, you feel sometype of way about this,
obviously, right?
Yeah, yeah. It's so interestinghow it, like, softens you toward
them, right? Like, there's this,like, for me, there is this,
like, visceral in my bodysoftening, like, even as you're
talking about that, I'mthinking, I'm feeling that way,
(07:04):
even toward your partner, right?
Like imagining this other personin this space where they are
actually being vulnerable. And,yeah, it's, it is a really
interesting place. I think theother reason I said we would be
fun is because we're not incrisis right now. Yeah, I felt
like, oh, we both met this thistherapist. We both really liked
(07:28):
him, and we're not in crisis. Solike, maybe we could go give
some room to stuff that's justlike, hanging out there. And one
of the things I've said is thatCorey and I are, we're very
compatible. We got together veryquickly, when we finally got
(07:48):
together, and we're supercompatible, and we really enjoy
each other's company, like weactually like each other and
like being around each other.
And because of that, we don'tknow how to do conflict. And
when conflict arises, it tendsto be like issues or things that
(08:11):
feel really, really big, becausethere's so much in the day to
day that just like we jive withand it's fine. And so it can
just be this really kind of, Iwant to use the word explosive,
but it's not quite that, thoughit certainly has been at times.
A lot of it revolves aroundparenting, and it's just
(08:35):
interesting, right? It's likestuff we didn't have opinions
about because we didn't haveexperience, and now we're being
faced with, like, shaping theselittle people. And so we have
to, like, figure out what wethink and feel about things. And
it just is, like, surprisingwhen we hit up against something
where we're like, notnecessarily like, yeah, okay,
(08:55):
good, yep, okay, good, check,check, and then we don't know
how to deal with it, and so thatwas a big part of why we decided
to go ahead and try and do thisfor a little while. And I think,
yeah, it just has me thinking alot about communication, because
I think of myself as somebodywho is, generally speaking, a
(09:16):
good communicator. I do have adegree in it, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything, but Ido think of myself as a good
communicator in terms of, like,one way communication. Oh, I'm
a master atone way communication.
This is the distinction I'mstarting to really settle into
since becoming a coach,especially like in the last five
(09:36):
or six years. It's like, oh, Iam really good one direction
communication, yeah, and that isa really uncomfortable thing to
admit, yeah,yeah. I was also just thinking
about you and him too. As far asconflict goes, like you guys are
both very deeply feeling people,yeah? And so I. And both grew up
(09:57):
in homes where conflict probablywasn't modeled very well, and
like, how to handle that, likeour parents, like, would go into
another room, yeah, yeah. And sothere'll be tension, but, like,
we never really saw it play out.
I can give a really good exampleof how not to communicate based
(10:18):
on something that happened lastnight, if you'd like, so I will
say that for the first part ofour marriage, Joshua did a lot
of the cleaning. He did a lot ofthe cleaning. He did a lot of
the stuff around the house. AndI don't know, somewhere along
(10:39):
the way, somehow it got switchedto me, and I don't know how that
happened, but I don't like it. Ireally we do split the labor on
a lot of different things, andwe have some things that are
negotiated. We've also both hadseasons where we just haven't
felt our best, where the othershad to pick up slack and things
(11:01):
like that. And I both, I thinkwe're both pretty good and
stable right now, and so we'rekind of renegotiating that
labor. And yeah, I just feellike I've been doing a lot, and
honestly, I will say like Idon't actually mind doing a lot
(11:23):
of that kind of thing, becausehe does stuff I hate, like, I
cannot stand, yeah, so it'slike, for every like, couple of
things I do, he'll do somethingjust like I don't even want any
part of. So there's been kind ofthat anyway, all that to say,
but I've wanted more help thelast several months, and I've
(11:44):
directly asked for that help,and there's been some resistance
on his end. And, um, fastforward to last night. I guess.
You know, lately, maybe I'vebeen making a lot more offhanded
comments about how much I dolittle he does around the house.
(12:06):
And something happened, and Imade a comment, and he said, Oh,
here we go. You know, that kindof a thing. Just don't clean.
And I was like, what he's like,just don't clean. If you don't
(12:26):
like to do it, then don't do it.
Because I am tired of hearingabout the fact that you are the
only one who cleans around here,or whatever.
So curious about what yourcomment was you made.
Oh, some, oh, he, oh, so he'sbeen doing more cleaning in the
last like week or so, and I'vepart of it's because it was my
(12:47):
birthday, and I'm always like, Iwant to clean someone, to clean
something for my birthdayanyway. And we had, you know,
people over and stuff. And so ifI say, hey, I need you to do
this and this, he'll do it. ButI don't want to always have to
do that. That is labor too,right? And anyway, like I said,
(13:09):
all of you out there right noware like, Oh, well. It's like,
listen, I know,I know whatever. Not everyone
knows this, that this is, like,the crux of a lot of tension in
in in in relationships, even,like, with roommates, but like
people you're living with thatlike, there is this place where
we don't want to have to tellyou how to support us and how to
(13:29):
I don'twant the assumption to be that
it's my labor. I don't want theassumption to be that it's my
labor, and if it needs to bedone, I have to ask you to do
it. I want you in it,partnering, looking around,
seeing what needs to be done,and also understanding, as a
coach, some people don't seethings when things don't bother
(13:52):
them, like they bother me, but Iunderstand all of that. We are
in the process of, like I said,renegotiating some of this
stuff. Okay, so I he was feelingreally good about all the stuff
he'd cleaned, right? And someonevery cavalierly left a big plop
of mud with some water around iton the kitchen floor, and just
(14:17):
left it there. And he was whodid this? Well, it could be one
of two people, and they're underthe age of 18, because I did not
leave a pop of mud on the floor,and you cleaned it. So I know
you've been very careful to pickup make sure that that area was
clean. And he, you know, startedgoing in on, oh, this,
(14:45):
seriously, who did this? Blah,blah, blah. And I'm like,
welcome to my world. That's whatI said. Okay, yeah, landed like
a lead balloon. Oh, yeah, yeah.
He's like, Oh, I get it. I getit. I know you blah blah. So it
wasn't very intense. It was justkind of, we both kind of barked
at each other, and both feltvery indignant and like went
(15:10):
went away in our typical, like,fighting fashion. And, um,
anyway, I thought about it andwas still angry about it,
because I just thought, here'sthe thing I have said, I have
done the thing where I've said,I need more help around the
(15:31):
house, right? All the things Ijust said a few minutes ago
about partnering and lookingaround and doing the things,
even if we have to make a list,whatever, I've gone through
those channels and he justdidn't feel like it,
yeah, right,and or didn't want to do it, and
so all that to say. I you know,I guess because I was not met
(15:58):
with the Okay, yeah, let's sitdown and dig in and figure out
the list and dividing the laborand blah, blah, blah. I just
went to snarky back in thecomments, because, hey, like,
what's going to work here? And Iwas thinking about this morning
I did, like, repair a little bitlast night, give him a hug and a
(16:21):
kiss good night, instead of,like, freezing him out. Because
I was like, this is notwell, you don't actually believe
that the snarky comments work.
No shame never gets anyone tomove the needle. Okay. Just
doesn't work. I was thinkingabout that too. And also kind of
(16:42):
zooming out and thinking aboutwhere he's been and mentally,
emotionally and all of thosedifferent things. And also when
someone when he does not do thethings, things I think he should
be doing. I don't see all thethings that he does do, right?
(17:06):
And so I was thinking aboutwhat, what has what does he do?
Well, you know what? All thisweek, you know what he did? He
took the kids to the park. Helike, spent really good quality
time with them, so I could getstuff done, not clean. But I had
other things I had to do, orthings I wanted to do. You know,
(17:27):
he did some things around thehouse and blah, blah, blah, but,
you know, like I said, he does alot of things that I don't want
to do, like I don't want to do.
I don't want to take the car toget repairs. I don't want to
change the filter and the airconditioner. I don't want to,
you know, whatever. So, yeah, Idon't know. We're definitely not
(17:47):
in a space where we have thisfigured out. But, you know, in
like reflection this morning, Iwas thinking, you know, this is
not the way for me to get what Iwant out of the situation. And I
also think about Honestly, eventhough I don't like the fact
(18:11):
that I have to take the labor ofasking him to do stuff every
single time I ask him, he doesit happily and well and in like
a time frame, I asked him to doit, it's not like, then I'm
like, you know, kind of gettingresistance, you know. And I do
wonder sometimes, is it becausehe doesn't really see it, but in
(18:32):
the reminder of it is happy tohelp around the house, I don't
know, because we have, weprobably need to talk about
that. Yeah, it canbe helpful. I mean, for us, I
might be more like Joshua in ourdynamic, although I'm like, What
do I do that Corey hates anddoesn't want to do? Because
there may not be anything that Ican think of. Corey does a lot
(18:54):
of stuff I don't want to do anddoesn't complain, one of them
being the dishes. I really,really hate doing the dishes,
and Corey has said recently hedoesn't like doing the dishes,
which kind of surprised me,because I thought part of why he
always does them is because hedoesn't liked it.
(19:17):
Yeah. Okay, that sounds like Ifeel like that we're living
parallel lives.
Well. So anyway, he doesn'treally like it, but he does it
because it has to get done, andif it doesn't get done, they
pile up. Okay? She's making aface like, this is her train of
thought. I hate doing thedishes. I Hate it. Hate it, hate
it. And there's a lot of reasonswhy, but anyway, but I also do a
(19:41):
ton of the food management, andwe generally split things
evenly, but a lot of the laborthat I do is like emotional,
mental labor, and so it's harderto see it, and it's sometimes
even harder for me to um. Icelebrated, and one of the
(20:03):
things that came up in one ofour therapy sessions recently
was around like one of the kidswas having a meltdown, and Corey
has a very low tolerance for theauditory experience of a child
having a meltdown, which I thinkwe've talked about in other
(20:24):
episodes. It's a real thing, andit is super hard to be around
someone if you are sensitive tosound, and they are wailing and
but because of the child that itwas that was having a hard time,
the other child started having ahard time in response and in
solidarity, I guess, to theother one. And so they were both
(20:46):
having a hard time. And byhaving a hard time, I mean
wailing and screaming and sayingall this stuff about how they
didn't want this certain thingto happen. That was not bad, but
it was just they didn't wantthey were tired anyway, he went
upstairs, and I was like, Uh,are you okay? Guess here I am.
And in the therapy session,Corey was like, you know, if
(21:11):
it's too much for you, too, it'soverwhelming, you can leave the
room. And so we're thinkingabout like body boundaries,
right? Like this is hurting myears, this is creating
activation and stress in me, andI need to withdraw myself,
settle and come back. Totallyvalid, but I said, we can't both
do that at the same time if theyare not okay, like they're
(21:31):
needing us in the room, and I'mlike, I can't imagine them as
young adults or adults saying,Well, every time I got really
upset. My parents left the roomuntil I calmed down. To me,
sounds devastating, and so I'mlike, we can't both do it at the
same time. And so we weretalking about this whole
instance of what happened andhow I was able to help the kids,
(21:53):
like, settle back down. Andanyway, therapist, at one point
was like, it sounds likeElizabeth was able to do this
thing that you Corey, you know,you weren't able to do, and the
kids needed it. And it's like,so great. She was able to do
that. She was able to be withthem. And like, maybe it would
(22:14):
be nice if, after something likethat. And he was like, do you
agree? And he was like, yeah.
Like, I'm she's really good atit. I'm so glad she was able to
do that. And he's like, Well,might just be helpful to let her
know. Like, that was reallyhard, and I really appreciate
you doing that. And I was like,yes, it, like, opened up this
(22:34):
whole like, oh, like, on bothsides, like, I also didn't
realize I needed to beappreciated. And it didn't occur
to him to vocalize hisappreciation. I think I assume
he appreciates me most of thetime, because, again, we don't
have a contentious relationship,but I am also someone who really
needs to hear that a lot. I needa lot of praise. And it was a
(22:57):
like, big aha, of like, oh yeah,I can do the hard stuff, and I
can do the things that arereally taxing sometimes,
but I need some acknowledgementthat, like, I'm doing a hard
thing, and that you're like,great, that you're not being
taken for granted, that, like,yeah, that there is some leaning
into like, wow, that I'm so gladI have a partner who's doing
(23:19):
that and not feeling like it'slike, been dismissed, and that,
you know, yeah, like, doyou see me? Yeah?
I mean, it's another way ofpartnering, right? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And I think, like,these two things I'm thinking
about this, like housework, likelife management stuff, and then
(23:39):
this whole thing around, like,emotional labor, which, like, if
you don't have kids, it stillmight, it might be relevant
toward pets that you share,because there's just a very
similar kind of neediness, atleast in what I've witnessed and
people who have pets, I don'thave pets because I already Have
these, like, two needy creaturesin my house, or aging parents,
(24:01):
or, yeah, like, if you if youare taking care of someone else,
or maybe you have a partner whoreally struggles with depression
or anxiety and like, so there'sjust a lot of caretaking and,
like, kind of invisible labor,if we want to call it that. To
me, it's not invisible becauseit's like, so hard to hold space
(24:22):
into this. But I'm like, how doyou not see this? This is not
invisible. What I'm doing,right, right, right? So I don't
want to call it that and, like,normalize calling it invisible,
because I think people should beable to see it. But when it
comes to being in relationshipwith others, if we don't
(24:42):
communicate and talk about notjust who's doing what, but like,
do you see me? Yeah, do you seeme? Because often, in the midst
of that, I feel invisible. Ifeel like everybody's upset, and
now also Corey is struggling,and so like. Am I? Who am I in
all of this? Do I matter? Andobviously, the kids are little,
(25:03):
so i i Only matter to them inthat I'm the one to help them,
right? Like I don't matter tothem for my own sake yet. Yeah,
right. Oh, living for the day.
But if my partner is also notseeing me in those moments, it
can just feel really isolating.
You can just feel like, yeah,and then, you know, I think
(25:26):
there can be some backlasharound like, taking more for
myself than is reasonable orfair, right? Like, being like,
this is a really hard week, andso this weekend, I'm going to
just check out. I'm going to gomake my own plans. I'm going to
go chill in my room for hours,and I'm just like, not going to
answer if they yell out formommy and again, like, for the
(25:48):
most part, if that happens,which it does, Corey, doesn't
he? He never is like, what areyou doing? Where are you? If he
did that, I would be like, Whatare you doing? Why are you here?
But? But he never does that tome, and he just lets me take the
space I want, and I don't wantit to be so imbalanced in an
(26:10):
ongoing way, to where then likehe's feeling really isolated and
disconnected from others. And Ithink that piece around like we
need companionship, and whenwe're in this stage of life
where we're really busy andwe're caregiving and working and
whatever, companionship justseems to be a thing that goes by
(26:34):
the wayside, and it just feelslike communication is the
missing piece to supportcompanionship. Like, I need to
know that I'm needed incompanionship with you, not just
because I have tasks that youneed me to do, but it's a
partnership.
(26:56):
It's like, yeah, I tell him allthe time. I Joshua? I tell him.
I say, when I feel like I'm in apartnership, like we're really
partnering with each other, Ihave the I have so much more
capacity. Yeah, it's like, Ijust, it's like, even if he's
doing something else or he'sjust done something else that
(27:18):
I'm doing, like some cleaning,or I'm doing something with one
of the kids. It's like, if thereis an ongoing touching in to the
fact that we are partnering, I'mseeing that feeling that I'm not
keeping a score. I'm notthinking about, Oh, I cleaned
all day, and what did you do?
It's like there is, like, justthis feeling and essence of
partnership, and when that is inbalance. And I think there's,
(27:41):
there's lots of ways to do that.
It's not just like tit for tat,like you do this, I do that.
It's like the communicatingpart, the like I see you part,
the the whatever it is. There'sa probably 100,000 ways it can
look but it's like, you know itfor your own relationship when
(28:03):
that is in balance, not the titfor tat task, but the the
partner partnering thing. It'slike the ebbs and flows just
feel so much more seamless. Andlike part of it you don't think
about that. She's like, we're inthis together, yeah.
And it's like you almost have tohave those conversations. Like
(28:24):
last night, we had a bedtimewith our kiddo who has
meltdowns, and there was like ameltdown was brewing, and we had
cousins and stuff in town forfor a few days, and so just a
lot of energy in the house thatwas starting to get a little
(28:45):
overwhelming, and in the past,you know, we tend to have a hard
time together. Corey and I beingin that space with this kiddo,
because we are not partnering.
We're like both singularlyfocused on the kid, but we're
not in sync with each other, andit creates like more chaos
often. And last night, it wasjust lovely, because I felt like
(29:08):
neither of us was gettingactivated. We were both really
present. We were kind ofoccasionally making eye contact,
but we were still in support ofgetting this kid to bed,
essentially, and and then after,when we went downstairs, I took
a moment to say like that feltsuccessful to me. I felt like we
(29:31):
were together in that. I feltlike you weren't getting
activated, and neither was I,and that we were like it was
hard, and of course, not ourchoice of how we would want to
spend an evening, but it just,it didn't escalate and it and it
was able to be diffused, and thekiddo went to bed peacefully and
feeling loved. And I had to,like, take a moment and
(29:55):
communicate that and say, like,how
did that feel for you? And forCorey to be like, yeah, it felt
pretty good. Did it feeldifferent to you because we're
working on, like,can we show up in these moments
where they are needing aregulated nervous system? Can we
both be practicing doing thisfor them? And it just felt
really important to, like,communicate about it. But I also
(30:17):
think I have to know, like, toyour point about what makes me
feel in sync with him, whatmakes me feel like we're really
partnering and there's some flowthere. I have to start getting
curious about and noticing whenthose moments occur, what are
some of the elements of thatthat make it feel better to me,
and then be able to communicatethat like it feels good to me
(30:41):
when neither of us are gettingactivated, or we're like, able
to work with our own activationand then come back in and when
we're able to connect eye toeye, or like that makes me feel
like we're partnered. You know,you're checking on me. You see
me. You know, occasionally Coreywill come, like, into the
(31:01):
kitchen, if I've had a reallybusy day and I've been doing a
whole bunch, and he'll check inand he'll say, like,
how are you doing? What's goingon? How are you feeling? And
it's just this little bit of,like, how I interpret it is, I
see you moving around. I see youdoing all this stuff. Like,
how's it going in there? Like,not like, how are you doing? Do
(31:22):
you need help with this task?
It's like, me, how am I doing?
How's my energy and my mood andwhatever? But that has taken a
lot of communication over theyears, also
taking a lot of work. You guysare both individually doing your
work, and I think you know whenyou're neurodivergent and you're
parenting neurodivergent kids,and you guys all have sensitive
(31:44):
nervous systems and all that.
And then, you know, a lot oftimes, I know I've said this,
you've said this, where you feellike you're not on the same page
with how to move forward, withwhat's happening with your kid,
with your partner. And a lot ofit, you know, is because they're
just, you know, their system islike, they need it to stop
(32:04):
because they're activated. It'slike a threat, and not
necessarily, like they don't seevalue, like logic is out the
window. And I think that havingthe ability to stay present. I
think part of that for y'all andpart of it, I think, for Joshua
and I too, is us co regulatingwith each other, like the
(32:27):
glances, the like, we're safe,we're like, doing this together.
No one's going to be stuck doingthis or whatever. And yes, it's
really loud, and yes, it'sreally hard and all that other
stuff. But when you don't pauseor have the ability to even get
enough spaciousness in your ownsystem for just even a little
(32:48):
bit of that. It's like they'vealready gone off the handle and
like, are totally, you know,activate it, and then it's like,
okay, I really am going to haveto do this by myself because,
and I think obviously it'snuanced, right? I mean, it's
like the dynamic between the twoof you, and it's also the two of
(33:10):
you individually, but there soit's like, it sounds like
addressing the dynamic ishelping next level, kind of
where you guys are at, becauseyou guys are both working on
your own systems, is that,yeah, yeah. And I think, like
this other piece around notmaking other people guess yeah
(33:34):
is really hard. It's souncomfortable to identify what
you need, and then it's sovulnerable to like, speak that
out and in the hopes thatsomebody will receive it well
and respond and you know, attuneto you. And for many of us,
(33:56):
especially those of us who have,you know, significant attachment
wounds from childhood, it's verydifficult to be needy and and
yet, until we I don't want to,like, make really bold
statements, but I feel likeuntil we can kind of contend
With the reality that we are allneedy, and other people cannot
(34:20):
meet our needs or see us in ourneediness and care for us if we
hide it and we or we pretend itdoesn't exist. And so it's
almost like this self protectionof like, what if I don't get
these needs met? I don't this istoo risky. But by doing that you
are like you are, you willsurely not get them met, yeah,
(34:45):
and that piece around like, Ihave to say, these are things I
will do and these are things Iwill not do. I need space. I
need time to myself. I need, youknow, whatever it is. I think,
is this big piece around thepartnership that we have had to,
like, very intentionally work onfor years, and it's required
(35:08):
both of us to like, know thingsfor ourselves, and then actually
tell the other person and makespace to tell the other person,
right, because we can just like,go through life with no checking
in and months.
And I know with you, it's likeyou're really independent, and a
(35:28):
lot of that's protective. And Ijust think about, you know,
trust is two way. It's not justlike you offering up Corey
things to be there for him, likeI want to be there for you, let
me be there for you, but it'slike you but it's like you
letting him be there for you.
Yes, builds that trust too. Andlike, oh, I have something of
(35:49):
value to offer. Oh, I, I, shedoes need me in a different way,
not as an accessory, not that.
I'm not saying Elizabeth treatshim like an accessory, but I'm
saying like she is protected. Imean, you've got that protective
wound of like, I've got to showup, I've got to take care of
everything. I got to make sureeverybody's okay. I mean, I have
(36:10):
it too, yep. And you know, he'sa really tender dude, and your
go to with him. It's interestingthinking about now, like the
wounds that are like beinghealed within like gal's
marriage, of like your innerlittle Yeah, is of just for you
(36:32):
to have someone so tender thatyou can lean into who has the
capacity to really see you. Wasreally beautiful, because that's
exactly what little Elizabethwould need, right, yeah, and him
feeling capable of coming upalongside and being tender but
(36:54):
strong, yeah, and able is whatprobably little Corey needs. So
it's kind of really cute andamazing.
It is cute and amazing, and itYeah, and I just, I feel like
this going to keep you knowunfolding for the rest of our
lives. But I just feel like it'sbeen so nice to have this
(37:20):
designated space where just acouple times a month we're
forced to, like, sit andactually reflect on like, how is
our relationship, and where isit like, not great, or like,
puzzling,and can we talk about that in
the presence of somebody else.
(37:42):
And, like, actually, you know,make a little bit of progress.
Progress isn't really the word,but can we, like, loosen up the
knots there a little bit.
It's been really good. And Ijust, yeah, I feel like, no
matter how many years ofexperience I have as a
(38:03):
communications professional andas a communicator, it doesn't
change the fact that likecommunicating in intimate
relationships is like, I don'tknow. I just feel like it's a
muscle that you have to trainlike your whole life. I mean,
therapists will tell you thatyou can do all the healing you
(38:26):
want in isolation, but you don'treally know and can't really
grow to the next level untilyou're practicing that in like
an intimate, like relationship,because the dynamics and all of
the other stuff that comes intoplay with other humans is so
triggering. It's so triggeringand it has to be revealed and
(38:50):
thrashed around with and allthat other stuff. I mean, if you
want to be totally content be byyourself,
yeah, don't even have a bestfriend, it's like, because
certainly don't have children,yeah, but yeah, that's that's
really true, and I really thinkthat, honestly, probably, I
(39:13):
mean, I think kids do trigger usa lot of ways, but there is
something About a partner thattouches into like things that,
man, I know the core nobody elsecan Yeah, yeah.
I Yeah. The a few months ago, Ihad a therapy session by myself
(39:33):
where this stuff that was reallytriggering to me in the
headlines and the news came up,and when we did some work around
it, the link back, it was likesomething related to dad, but it
was by way of Corey or somethingin the processing of it. And I
was like, what like, it's socliche that, like, my issues
(39:55):
with my dad from childhood are,like, super imposed. Done to my
partner.
They're cliche for a reason.
This is becausewho came up with that cliche?
They must have known a thing.
Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Well,that was really helpful. Thanks.
I gotta go to bed.
(40:19):
Oh, yeah, I would like to get inmy bed. Oh, it's so nice. It
snowed this morning.
I know because Nora's beenwatching she's obsessed with the
weather app, and she tells methe forecast for Kansas City and
here. And she was letting meknow that you guys were going to
get snow it. She told it to meas if she was breaking very
(40:43):
exciting news. I mean, thatis adorable. Yeah, she Oh, I'll
have to take some pictures andsend them so she, she
really is missing her cousin, Iknow. And I told her, I was
like, she's, they have thesephone calls. And Elizabeth
side's been on the struggle busand just not really feeling the
(41:05):
zoom. You know whatit is? It's that we spent time
with y'all this summer, spent somuch time in person that Francie
was just like,that is better. Oh, it is
better. And so it's like, maybeit was on in those zoom calls.
Maybe it is obnoxious on this,and I have no idea. It just
may not be very interesting. Ihave no idea either. They were
(41:27):
loving them before we wereplaying
dolls and all of that on theZoom calls. And, you know, Nora
is in person is better.
She just, I mean, here's thething. I mean, Francie could get
on a call and listen, she'd wanther to talk tomorrow and the
next day and the next day, nextday. So
(41:48):
excited about that. I'm like,I'm like, Nora in that way,
but I know you are, and that'swhy I don't feel bad every
single day texting me sayingNora is available. She tells me
to tell you, and I'm like, Youknow what? I'm gonna do it,
because she's asking me to doit. And I know you're not
annoyed. I know you're thinking,You know what, I get it. And I
also reallywant, I really want my kid to be
available too, and I don't wantyou to feel bad about it. But I
(42:12):
because I get it too, because Iam, for instance, I Yeah, yeah,
like, Oh, can I just run into ittoday?
Well, maybe we should startletting her have calls with the
other one, because he might beinto it. Okay, thanks for
chatting.
(42:32):
Yeah. Hope you have a deep restof the weekend. I like that bun
on top ofyour head. Thanks. It's really
disastrous,but think something, it's, it
looks like a beehive.
Yeah, that happened. Too bad noone else can see it. Yeah,
I know. I mean, I shouldn'ttalk. We're in the same state
(42:54):
right now, and I have my unit,my winter uniform. It's
a Saturday, a winter Saturday,this is yeah, okay, all right,
I'll talk to you later. I.
This. What were you saying?
(00:05):
I was like, this is thedefinition of winging it. Yeah,
unprepared,last minute, no prep. This is
the sleepy sisters Podcast. I'mElizabeth brink,
and I'm Sarah Durham,and we just decided to hop on
and chat today aboutcommunication in relationships,
and I didn't know what you'retalking
(00:29):
about, and I said, What are wetalking about? And she said,
couples communication like I betthere's a story there.
What? No, I just have topicsthat just come to me
with the holidays and familybeing there and all of that. No,
(00:49):
no, please don't help me. Sorry.
Anyway, yeah, so yes, I havethis on my mind, partly, mostly,
because Cory and I have startedcouples therapy, and we've never
done it before, and we'll becelebrating 10 years married in
(01:12):
January, and it's been reallyinteresting. What's funny is
that I started out by reachingout to this therapist who we had
met at an event, and both of usreally liked this person, and so
I reached out and was like, wehave individual therapists.
Like, I'm doing all thesetrainings. We're gonna be really
(01:34):
fun to work with.
Oh, God, I don't know why I saidit. It was like, we go, right?
You know how to do therapy?
Okay,yes. But then we went in for
like, second session, and itwas, like, the day after the
election, and we got in a fighton the way to the to the office,
(01:54):
and we got there, and it justkeeps ringing in my head. Me,
having written these words, Ithink we'd be really fun to work
with. I'm like, we this is,like, no, what does that mean to
be fun to work with? You mean,because you have, like, fun
problems and you're ready to digin and, yeah, kind of like, I'm
(02:18):
self aware and yeah, like, Ithink about when I have clients
that come in, and they're theyunderstand kind of how this
works, and they have some stuffthat they know they want to work
on, and they're really open toself reflection, right? Like,
there's these elements that makesomebody, yeah, perfect. Fun to
work with.
(02:42):
Ready to dig in. Be curious,yeah, yeah, absolutely. It does
make a huge difference.
They know how to partner withthe practitioner, like they
Yeah, and so I think I had thatkind of in in mind, but like, it
just keeps ringing in my headbecause it's like, did I say
that? Because there's a lotabout what we're bringing that
(03:04):
doesn't feel fun at all. Andwe're meeting this guy like
midweek, at six o'clock in theevening, and so also thinking
about how he's ending his day.
These people he thought weregoing to be fun, but here we
are. Well,what makes you think you're not
fun? Iknow I think, yeah, anyway, it's
been really good experience.
(03:26):
It's only been, like a month anda half that we've been going but
I think one of the things Ididn't expect was getting to
kind of observe my significantother in this like, vulnerable
state and processing with apractitioner and like, it's
(03:46):
really neat to, like, bearwitness to the moments when,
like, they are connecting andtalking about something. It just
like, makes me see Coreydifferently. I don't know it's
it is a surprising benefit is,like, also being in each other's
presence when we're working onstuff, because we don't go to
(04:07):
each other's therapy. You know,absolutely, I think anytime you
get a chance to be in any typeof community with your
significant other, and you'reyou get to be an observer of,
like, not just the vulnerableparts, but guess that, and then
also their funny parts and theircharismatic and all of that and
so. And I think when you havestuff that you're working on,
(04:31):
which is everybody for all time,okay, I think it probably, I
mean, I just think some of thestuff that we've done together
in the past as a couple in thisarea, there is a hopefulness and
kind of, when you see themwilling to kind of dig or lean
(04:55):
into that. I. Which may not showup in arguments, or when there's
conflict, because no one is ifspace is like for that to
happen, because the dynamic isjust what it is. Yeah, it's you
see them differently. You seeyour conflict differently. You
(05:16):
see how they're trying to showup in the best way, because
we've always made, I mean, Iknow for myself. Can you make
these judgments about, oh, I'mover here doing the work, okay?
And then, you know, and theycould be too, but it's the
dynamic is a whole otherorganism, yeah? So that's really
(05:37):
sometimes very difficult tocarve out as a couple in your
home with all of the pressures.
So when you see them working onstuff, you're like, oh, yeah,
okay. Like, man, why can't I seethis more at home? And well,
there's probably a differentreason. I would love to go to
(06:01):
couples therapy. I think that isdefinitely on my list of to do's
we did, like, marriage thing,you know, right before COVID
happened, where it was, like ameeting with, like, couples and
stuff like that. And it wasreally, really good for our
marriage. And I think because ofwhat you just described, like,
(06:22):
watching my partner admit hisshortcomings for other people in
a vulnerable way and be upsetabout it. You know, you don't
always see that. A lot of timesthere's defensiveness wrapped
around that and things likethat, and you're like, okay,
(06:43):
yeah, like this, you feel sometype of way about this,
obviously, right?
Yeah, yeah. It's so interestinghow it, like, softens you toward
them, right? Like, there's this,like, for me, there is this,
like, visceral in my bodysoftening, like, even as you're
talking about that, I'mthinking, I'm feeling that way,
(07:04):
even toward your partner, right?
Like imagining this other personin this space where they are
actually being vulnerable. And,yeah, it's, it is a really
interesting place. I think theother reason I said we would be
fun is because we're not incrisis right now. Yeah, I felt
like, oh, we both met this thistherapist. We both really liked
(07:28):
him, and we're not in crisis. Solike, maybe we could go give
some room to stuff that's justlike, hanging out there. And one
of the things I've said is thatCorey and I are, we're very
compatible. We got together veryquickly, when we finally got
(07:48):
together, and we're supercompatible, and we really enjoy
each other's company, like weactually like each other and
like being around each other.
And because of that, we don'tknow how to do conflict. And
when conflict arises, it tendsto be like issues or things that
(08:11):
feel really, really big, becausethere's so much in the day to
day that just like we jive withand it's fine. And so it can
just be this really kind of, Iwant to use the word explosive,
but it's not quite that, thoughit certainly has been at times.
A lot of it revolves aroundparenting, and it's just
(08:35):
interesting, right? It's likestuff we didn't have opinions
about because we didn't haveexperience, and now we're being
faced with, like, shaping theselittle people. And so we have
to, like, figure out what wethink and feel about things. And
it just is, like, surprisingwhen we hit up against something
where we're like, notnecessarily like, yeah, okay,
(08:55):
good, yep, okay, good, check,check, and then we don't know
how to deal with it, and so thatwas a big part of why we decided
to go ahead and try and do thisfor a little while. And I think,
yeah, it just has me thinking alot about communication, because
I think of myself as somebodywho is, generally speaking, a
(09:16):
good communicator. I do have adegree in it, but that doesn't
necessarily mean anything, but Ido think of myself as a good
communicator in terms of, like,one way communication. Oh, I'm
a master atone way communication.
This is the distinction I'mstarting to really settle into
since becoming a coach,especially like in the last five
(09:36):
or six years. It's like, oh, Iam really good one direction
communication, yeah, and that isa really uncomfortable thing to
admit, yeah,yeah. I was also just thinking
about you and him too. As far asconflict goes, like you guys are
both very deeply feeling people,yeah? And so I. And both grew up
(09:57):
in homes where conflict probablywasn't modeled very well, and
like, how to handle that, likeour parents, like, would go into
another room, yeah, yeah. And sothere'll be tension, but, like,
we never really saw it play out.
I can give a really good exampleof how not to communicate based
(10:18):
on something that happened lastnight, if you'd like, so I will
say that for the first part ofour marriage, Joshua did a lot
of the cleaning. He did a lot ofthe cleaning. He did a lot of
the stuff around the house. AndI don't know, somewhere along
(10:39):
the way, somehow it got switchedto me, and I don't know how that
happened, but I don't like it. Ireally we do split the labor on
a lot of different things, andwe have some things that are
negotiated. We've also both hadseasons where we just haven't
felt our best, where the othershad to pick up slack and things
(11:01):
like that. And I both, I thinkwe're both pretty good and
stable right now, and so we'rekind of renegotiating that
labor. And yeah, I just feellike I've been doing a lot, and
honestly, I will say like Idon't actually mind doing a lot
(11:23):
of that kind of thing, becausehe does stuff I hate, like, I
cannot stand, yeah, so it'slike, for every like, couple of
things I do, he'll do somethingjust like I don't even want any
part of. So there's been kind ofthat anyway, all that to say,
but I've wanted more help thelast several months, and I've
(11:44):
directly asked for that help,and there's been some resistance
on his end. And, um, fastforward to last night. I guess.
You know, lately, maybe I'vebeen making a lot more offhanded
comments about how much I dolittle he does around the house.
(12:06):
And something happened, and Imade a comment, and he said, Oh,
here we go. You know, that kindof a thing. Just don't clean.
And I was like, what he's like,just don't clean. If you don't
(12:26):
like to do it, then don't do it.
Because I am tired of hearingabout the fact that you are the
only one who cleans around here,or whatever.
So curious about what yourcomment was you made.
Oh, some, oh, he, oh, so he'sbeen doing more cleaning in the
last like week or so, and I'vepart of it's because it was my
(12:47):
birthday, and I'm always like, Iwant to clean someone, to clean
something for my birthdayanyway. And we had, you know,
people over and stuff. And so ifI say, hey, I need you to do
this and this, he'll do it. ButI don't want to always have to
do that. That is labor too,right? And anyway, like I said,
(13:09):
all of you out there right noware like, Oh, well. It's like,
listen, I know,I know whatever. Not everyone
knows this, that this is, like,the crux of a lot of tension in
in in in relationships, even,like, with roommates, but like
people you're living with thatlike, there is this place where
we don't want to have to tellyou how to support us and how to
(13:29):
I don'twant the assumption to be that
it's my labor. I don't want theassumption to be that it's my
labor, and if it needs to bedone, I have to ask you to do
it. I want you in it,partnering, looking around,
seeing what needs to be done,and also understanding, as a
coach, some people don't seethings when things don't bother
(13:52):
them, like they bother me, but Iunderstand all of that. We are
in the process of, like I said,renegotiating some of this
stuff. Okay, so I he was feelingreally good about all the stuff
he'd cleaned, right? And someonevery cavalierly left a big plop
of mud with some water around iton the kitchen floor, and just
(14:17):
left it there. And he was whodid this? Well, it could be one
of two people, and they're underthe age of 18, because I did not
leave a pop of mud on the floor,and you cleaned it. So I know
you've been very careful to pickup make sure that that area was
clean. And he, you know, startedgoing in on, oh, this,
(14:45):
seriously, who did this? Blah,blah, blah. And I'm like,
welcome to my world. That's whatI said. Okay, yeah, landed like
a lead balloon. Oh, yeah, yeah.
He's like, Oh, I get it. I getit. I know you blah blah. So it
wasn't very intense. It was justkind of, we both kind of barked
at each other, and both feltvery indignant and like went
(15:10):
went away in our typical, like,fighting fashion. And, um,
anyway, I thought about it andwas still angry about it,
because I just thought, here'sthe thing I have said, I have
done the thing where I've said,I need more help around the
(15:31):
house, right? All the things Ijust said a few minutes ago
about partnering and lookingaround and doing the things,
even if we have to make a list,whatever, I've gone through
those channels and he justdidn't feel like it,
yeah, right,and or didn't want to do it, and
so all that to say. I you know,I guess because I was not met
(15:58):
with the Okay, yeah, let's sitdown and dig in and figure out
the list and dividing the laborand blah, blah, blah. I just
went to snarky back in thecomments, because, hey, like,
what's going to work here? And Iwas thinking about this morning
I did, like, repair a little bitlast night, give him a hug and a
(16:21):
kiss good night, instead of,like, freezing him out. Because
I was like, this is notwell, you don't actually believe
that the snarky comments work.
No shame never gets anyone tomove the needle. Okay. Just
doesn't work. I was thinkingabout that too. And also kind of
(16:42):
zooming out and thinking aboutwhere he's been and mentally,
emotionally and all of thosedifferent things. And also when
someone when he does not do thethings, things I think he should
be doing. I don't see all thethings that he does do, right?
(17:06):
And so I was thinking aboutwhat, what has what does he do?
Well, you know what? All thisweek, you know what he did? He
took the kids to the park. Helike, spent really good quality
time with them, so I could getstuff done, not clean. But I had
other things I had to do, orthings I wanted to do. You know,
(17:27):
he did some things around thehouse and blah, blah, blah, but,
you know, like I said, he does alot of things that I don't want
to do, like I don't want to do.
I don't want to take the car toget repairs. I don't want to
change the filter and the airconditioner. I don't want to,
you know, whatever. So, yeah, Idon't know. We're definitely not
(17:47):
in a space where we have thisfigured out. But, you know, in
like reflection this morning, Iwas thinking, you know, this is
not the way for me to get what Iwant out of the situation. And I
also think about Honestly, eventhough I don't like the fact
(18:11):
that I have to take the labor ofasking him to do stuff every
single time I ask him, he doesit happily and well and in like
a time frame, I asked him to doit, it's not like, then I'm
like, you know, kind of gettingresistance, you know. And I do
wonder sometimes, is it becausehe doesn't really see it, but in
(18:32):
the reminder of it is happy tohelp around the house, I don't
know, because we have, weprobably need to talk about
that. Yeah, it canbe helpful. I mean, for us, I
might be more like Joshua in ourdynamic, although I'm like, What
do I do that Corey hates anddoesn't want to do? Because
there may not be anything that Ican think of. Corey does a lot
(18:54):
of stuff I don't want to do anddoesn't complain, one of them
being the dishes. I really,really hate doing the dishes,
and Corey has said recently hedoesn't like doing the dishes,
which kind of surprised me,because I thought part of why he
always does them is because hedoesn't liked it.
(19:17):
Yeah. Okay, that sounds like Ifeel like that we're living
parallel lives.
Well. So anyway, he doesn'treally like it, but he does it
because it has to get done, andif it doesn't get done, they
pile up. Okay? She's making aface like, this is her train of
thought. I hate doing thedishes. I Hate it. Hate it, hate
it. And there's a lot of reasonswhy, but anyway, but I also do a
(19:41):
ton of the food management, andwe generally split things
evenly, but a lot of the laborthat I do is like emotional,
mental labor, and so it's harderto see it, and it's sometimes
even harder for me to um. Icelebrated, and one of the
(20:03):
things that came up in one ofour therapy sessions recently
was around like one of the kidswas having a meltdown, and Corey
has a very low tolerance for theauditory experience of a child
having a meltdown, which I thinkwe've talked about in other
(20:24):
episodes. It's a real thing, andit is super hard to be around
someone if you are sensitive tosound, and they are wailing and
but because of the child that itwas that was having a hard time,
the other child started having ahard time in response and in
solidarity, I guess, to theother one. And so they were both
(20:46):
having a hard time. And byhaving a hard time, I mean
wailing and screaming and sayingall this stuff about how they
didn't want this certain thingto happen. That was not bad, but
it was just they didn't wantthey were tired anyway, he went
upstairs, and I was like, Uh,are you okay? Guess here I am.
And in the therapy session,Corey was like, you know, if
(21:11):
it's too much for you, too, it'soverwhelming, you can leave the
room. And so we're thinkingabout like body boundaries,
right? Like this is hurting myears, this is creating
activation and stress in me, andI need to withdraw myself,
settle and come back. Totallyvalid, but I said, we can't both
do that at the same time if theyare not okay, like they're
(21:31):
needing us in the room, and I'mlike, I can't imagine them as
young adults or adults saying,Well, every time I got really
upset. My parents left the roomuntil I calmed down. To me,
sounds devastating, and so I'mlike, we can't both do it at the
same time. And so we weretalking about this whole
instance of what happened andhow I was able to help the kids,
(21:53):
like, settle back down. Andanyway, therapist, at one point
was like, it sounds likeElizabeth was able to do this
thing that you Corey, you know,you weren't able to do, and the
kids needed it. And it's like,so great. She was able to do
that. She was able to be withthem. And like, maybe it would
(22:14):
be nice if, after something likethat. And he was like, do you
agree? And he was like, yeah.
Like, I'm she's really good atit. I'm so glad she was able to
do that. And he's like, Well,might just be helpful to let her
know. Like, that was reallyhard, and I really appreciate
you doing that. And I was like,yes, it, like, opened up this
(22:34):
whole like, oh, like, on bothsides, like, I also didn't
realize I needed to beappreciated. And it didn't occur
to him to vocalize hisappreciation. I think I assume
he appreciates me most of thetime, because, again, we don't
have a contentious relationship,but I am also someone who really
needs to hear that a lot. I needa lot of praise. And it was a
(22:57):
like, big aha, of like, oh yeah,I can do the hard stuff, and I
can do the things that arereally taxing sometimes,
but I need some acknowledgementthat, like, I'm doing a hard
thing, and that you're like,great, that you're not being
taken for granted, that, like,yeah, that there is some leaning
into like, wow, that I'm so gladI have a partner who's doing
(23:19):
that and not feeling like it'slike, been dismissed, and that,
you know, yeah, like, doyou see me? Yeah?
I mean, it's another way ofpartnering, right? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And I think, like,these two things I'm thinking
about this, like housework, likelife management stuff, and then
(23:39):
this whole thing around, like,emotional labor, which, like, if
you don't have kids, it stillmight, it might be relevant
toward pets that you share,because there's just a very
similar kind of neediness, atleast in what I've witnessed and
people who have pets, I don'thave pets because I already Have
these, like, two needy creaturesin my house, or aging parents,
(24:01):
or, yeah, like, if you if youare taking care of someone else,
or maybe you have a partner whoreally struggles with depression
or anxiety and like, so there'sjust a lot of caretaking and,
like, kind of invisible labor,if we want to call it that. To
me, it's not invisible becauseit's like, so hard to hold space
(24:22):
into this. But I'm like, how doyou not see this? This is not
invisible. What I'm doing,right, right, right? So I don't
want to call it that and, like,normalize calling it invisible,
because I think people should beable to see it. But when it
comes to being in relationshipwith others, if we don't
(24:42):
communicate and talk about notjust who's doing what, but like,
do you see me? Yeah, do you seeme? Because often, in the midst
of that, I feel invisible. Ifeel like everybody's upset, and
now also Corey is struggling,and so like. Am I? Who am I in
all of this? Do I matter? Andobviously, the kids are little,
(25:03):
so i i Only matter to them inthat I'm the one to help them,
right? Like I don't matter tothem for my own sake yet. Yeah,
right. Oh, living for the day.
But if my partner is also notseeing me in those moments, it
can just feel really isolating.
You can just feel like, yeah,and then, you know, I think
(25:26):
there can be some backlasharound like, taking more for
myself than is reasonable orfair, right? Like, being like,
this is a really hard week, andso this weekend, I'm going to
just check out. I'm going to gomake my own plans. I'm going to
go chill in my room for hours,and I'm just like, not going to
answer if they yell out formommy and again, like, for the
(25:48):
most part, if that happens,which it does, Corey, doesn't
he? He never is like, what areyou doing? Where are you? If he
did that, I would be like, Whatare you doing? Why are you here?
But? But he never does that tome, and he just lets me take the
space I want, and I don't wantit to be so imbalanced in an
(26:10):
ongoing way, to where then likehe's feeling really isolated and
disconnected from others. And Ithink that piece around like we
need companionship, and whenwe're in this stage of life
where we're really busy andwe're caregiving and working and
whatever, companionship justseems to be a thing that goes by
(26:34):
the wayside, and it just feelslike communication is the
missing piece to supportcompanionship. Like, I need to
know that I'm needed incompanionship with you, not just
because I have tasks that youneed me to do, but it's a
partnership.
(26:56):
It's like, yeah, I tell him allthe time. I Joshua? I tell him.
I say, when I feel like I'm in apartnership, like we're really
partnering with each other, Ihave the I have so much more
capacity. Yeah, it's like, Ijust, it's like, even if he's
doing something else or he'sjust done something else that
(27:18):
I'm doing, like some cleaning,or I'm doing something with one
of the kids. It's like, if thereis an ongoing touching in to the
fact that we are partnering, I'mseeing that feeling that I'm not
keeping a score. I'm notthinking about, Oh, I cleaned
all day, and what did you do?
It's like there is, like, justthis feeling and essence of
partnership, and when that is inbalance. And I think there's,
(27:41):
there's lots of ways to do that.
It's not just like tit for tat,like you do this, I do that.
It's like the communicatingpart, the like I see you part,
the the whatever it is. There'sa probably 100,000 ways it can
look but it's like, you know itfor your own relationship when
(28:03):
that is in balance, not the titfor tat task, but the the
partner partnering thing. It'slike the ebbs and flows just
feel so much more seamless. Andlike part of it you don't think
about that. She's like, we're inthis together, yeah.
And it's like you almost have tohave those conversations. Like
(28:24):
last night, we had a bedtimewith our kiddo who has
meltdowns, and there was like ameltdown was brewing, and we had
cousins and stuff in town forfor a few days, and so just a
lot of energy in the house thatwas starting to get a little
(28:45):
overwhelming, and in the past,you know, we tend to have a hard
time together. Corey and I beingin that space with this kiddo,
because we are not partnering.
We're like both singularlyfocused on the kid, but we're
not in sync with each other, andit creates like more chaos
often. And last night, it wasjust lovely, because I felt like
(29:08):
neither of us was gettingactivated. We were both really
present. We were kind ofoccasionally making eye contact,
but we were still in support ofgetting this kid to bed,
essentially, and and then after,when we went downstairs, I took
a moment to say like that feltsuccessful to me. I felt like we
(29:31):
were together in that. I feltlike you weren't getting
activated, and neither was I,and that we were like it was
hard, and of course, not ourchoice of how we would want to
spend an evening, but it just,it didn't escalate and it and it
was able to be diffused, and thekiddo went to bed peacefully and
feeling loved. And I had to,like, take a moment and
(29:55):
communicate that and say, like,how
did that feel for you? And forCorey to be like, yeah, it felt
pretty good. Did it feeldifferent to you because we're
working on, like,can we show up in these moments
where they are needing aregulated nervous system? Can we
both be practicing doing thisfor them? And it just felt
really important to, like,communicate about it. But I also
(30:17):
think I have to know, like, toyour point about what makes me
feel in sync with him, whatmakes me feel like we're really
partnering and there's some flowthere. I have to start getting
curious about and noticing whenthose moments occur, what are
some of the elements of thatthat make it feel better to me,
and then be able to communicatethat like it feels good to me
(30:41):
when neither of us are gettingactivated, or we're like, able
to work with our own activationand then come back in and when
we're able to connect eye toeye, or like that makes me feel
like we're partnered. You know,you're checking on me. You see
me. You know, occasionally Coreywill come, like, into the
(31:01):
kitchen, if I've had a reallybusy day and I've been doing a
whole bunch, and he'll check inand he'll say, like,
how are you doing? What's goingon? How are you feeling? And
it's just this little bit of,like, how I interpret it is, I
see you moving around. I see youdoing all this stuff. Like,
how's it going in there? Like,not like, how are you doing? Do
(31:22):
you need help with this task?
It's like, me, how am I doing?
How's my energy and my mood andwhatever? But that has taken a
lot of communication over theyears, also
taking a lot of work. You guysare both individually doing your
work, and I think you know whenyou're neurodivergent and you're
parenting neurodivergent kids,and you guys all have sensitive
(31:44):
nervous systems and all that.
And then, you know, a lot oftimes, I know I've said this,
you've said this, where you feellike you're not on the same page
with how to move forward, withwhat's happening with your kid,
with your partner. And a lot ofit, you know, is because they're
just, you know, their system islike, they need it to stop
(32:04):
because they're activated. It'slike a threat, and not
necessarily, like they don't seevalue, like logic is out the
window. And I think that havingthe ability to stay present. I
think part of that for y'all andpart of it, I think, for Joshua
and I too, is us co regulatingwith each other, like the
(32:27):
glances, the like, we're safe,we're like, doing this together.
No one's going to be stuck doingthis or whatever. And yes, it's
really loud, and yes, it'sreally hard and all that other
stuff. But when you don't pauseor have the ability to even get
enough spaciousness in your ownsystem for just even a little
(32:48):
bit of that. It's like they'vealready gone off the handle and
like, are totally, you know,activate it, and then it's like,
okay, I really am going to haveto do this by myself because,
and I think obviously it'snuanced, right? I mean, it's
like the dynamic between the twoof you, and it's also the two of
(33:10):
you individually, but there soit's like, it sounds like
addressing the dynamic ishelping next level, kind of
where you guys are at, becauseyou guys are both working on
your own systems, is that,yeah, yeah. And I think, like
this other piece around notmaking other people guess yeah
(33:34):
is really hard. It's souncomfortable to identify what
you need, and then it's sovulnerable to like, speak that
out and in the hopes thatsomebody will receive it well
and respond and you know, attuneto you. And for many of us,
(33:56):
especially those of us who have,you know, significant attachment
wounds from childhood, it's verydifficult to be needy and and
yet, until we I don't want to,like, make really bold
statements, but I feel likeuntil we can kind of contend
With the reality that we are allneedy, and other people cannot
(34:20):
meet our needs or see us in ourneediness and care for us if we
hide it and we or we pretend itdoesn't exist. And so it's
almost like this self protectionof like, what if I don't get
these needs met? I don't this istoo risky. But by doing that you
are like you are, you willsurely not get them met, yeah,
(34:45):
and that piece around like, Ihave to say, these are things I
will do and these are things Iwill not do. I need space. I
need time to myself. I need, youknow, whatever it is. I think,
is this big piece around thepartnership that we have had to,
like, very intentionally work onfor years, and it's required
(35:08):
both of us to like, know thingsfor ourselves, and then actually
tell the other person and makespace to tell the other person,
right, because we can just like,go through life with no checking
in and months.
And I know with you, it's likeyou're really independent, and a
(35:28):
lot of that's protective. And Ijust think about, you know,
trust is two way. It's not justlike you offering up Corey
things to be there for him, likeI want to be there for you, let
me be there for you, but it'slike you but it's like you
letting him be there for you.
Yes, builds that trust too. Andlike, oh, I have something of
(35:49):
value to offer. Oh, I, I, shedoes need me in a different way,
not as an accessory, not that.
I'm not saying Elizabeth treatshim like an accessory, but I'm
saying like she is protected. Imean, you've got that protective
wound of like, I've got to showup, I've got to take care of
everything. I got to make sureeverybody's okay. I mean, I have
(36:10):
it too, yep. And you know, he'sa really tender dude, and your
go to with him. It's interestingthinking about now, like the
wounds that are like beinghealed within like gal's
marriage, of like your innerlittle Yeah, is of just for you
(36:32):
to have someone so tender thatyou can lean into who has the
capacity to really see you. Wasreally beautiful, because that's
exactly what little Elizabethwould need, right, yeah, and him
feeling capable of coming upalongside and being tender but
(36:54):
strong, yeah, and able is whatprobably little Corey needs. So
it's kind of really cute andamazing.
It is cute and amazing, and itYeah, and I just, I feel like
this going to keep you knowunfolding for the rest of our
lives. But I just feel like it'sbeen so nice to have this
(37:20):
designated space where just acouple times a month we're
forced to, like, sit andactually reflect on like, how is
our relationship, and where isit like, not great, or like,
puzzling,and can we talk about that in
the presence of somebody else.
(37:42):
And, like, actually, you know,make a little bit of progress.
Progress isn't really the word,but can we, like, loosen up the
knots there a little bit.
It's been really good. And Ijust, yeah, I feel like, no
matter how many years ofexperience I have as a
(38:03):
communications professional andas a communicator, it doesn't
change the fact that likecommunicating in intimate
relationships is like, I don'tknow. I just feel like it's a
muscle that you have to trainlike your whole life. I mean,
therapists will tell you thatyou can do all the healing you
(38:26):
want in isolation, but you don'treally know and can't really
grow to the next level untilyou're practicing that in like
an intimate, like relationship,because the dynamics and all of
the other stuff that comes intoplay with other humans is so
triggering. It's so triggeringand it has to be revealed and
(38:50):
thrashed around with and allthat other stuff. I mean, if you
want to be totally content be byyourself,
yeah, don't even have a bestfriend, it's like, because
certainly don't have children,yeah, but yeah, that's that's
really true, and I really thinkthat, honestly, probably, I
(39:13):
mean, I think kids do trigger usa lot of ways, but there is
something About a partner thattouches into like things that,
man, I know the core nobody elsecan Yeah, yeah.
I Yeah. The a few months ago, Ihad a therapy session by myself
(39:33):
where this stuff that was reallytriggering to me in the
headlines and the news came up,and when we did some work around
it, the link back, it was likesomething related to dad, but it
was by way of Corey or somethingin the processing of it. And I
was like, what like, it's socliche that, like, my issues
(39:55):
with my dad from childhood are,like, super imposed. Done to my
partner.
They're cliche for a reason.
This is becausewho came up with that cliche?
They must have known a thing.
Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Well,that was really helpful. Thanks.
I gotta go to bed.
(40:19):
Oh, yeah, I would like to get inmy bed. Oh, it's so nice. It
snowed this morning.
I know because Nora's beenwatching she's obsessed with the
weather app, and she tells methe forecast for Kansas City and
here. And she was letting meknow that you guys were going to
get snow it. She told it to meas if she was breaking very
(40:43):
exciting news. I mean, thatis adorable. Yeah, she Oh, I'll
have to take some pictures andsend them so she, she
really is missing her cousin, Iknow. And I told her, I was
like, she's, they have thesephone calls. And Elizabeth
side's been on the struggle busand just not really feeling the
(41:05):
zoom. You know whatit is? It's that we spent time
with y'all this summer, spent somuch time in person that Francie
was just like,that is better. Oh, it is
better. And so it's like, maybeit was on in those zoom calls.
Maybe it is obnoxious on this,and I have no idea. It just
may not be very interesting. Ihave no idea either. They were
(41:27):
loving them before we wereplaying
dolls and all of that on theZoom calls. And, you know, Nora
is in person is better.
She just, I mean, here's thething. I mean, Francie could get
on a call and listen, she'd wanther to talk tomorrow and the
next day and the next day, nextday. So
(41:48):
excited about that. I'm like,I'm like, Nora in that way,
but I know you are, and that'swhy I don't feel bad every
single day texting me sayingNora is available. She tells me
to tell you, and I'm like, Youknow what? I'm gonna do it,
because she's asking me to doit. And I know you're not
annoyed. I know you're thinking,You know what, I get it. And I
also reallywant, I really want my kid to be
available too, and I don't wantyou to feel bad about it. But I
(42:12):
because I get it too, because Iam, for instance, I Yeah, yeah,
like, Oh, can I just run into ittoday?
Well, maybe we should startletting her have calls with the
other one, because he might beinto it. Okay, thanks for
chatting.
(42:32):
Yeah. Hope you have a deep restof the weekend. I like that bun
on top ofyour head. Thanks. It's really
disastrous,but think something, it's, it
looks like a beehive.
Yeah, that happened. Too bad noone else can see it. Yeah,
I know. I mean, I shouldn'ttalk. We're in the same state
(42:54):
right now, and I have my unit,my winter uniform. It's
a Saturday, a winter Saturday,this is yeah, okay, all right,
I'll talk to you later. I.
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