December 4, 2023 • 46 mins
The freeze state in your nervous system is like a circuit breaker. It shuts things down when activation gets too high. It's also the HIGHEST state of activation.
So how can we tell if we're in a state of freeze or if we're actually resting?
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:02):
Hello, the sky.
The Sleepy sisters are back.
It's been a couple of weeks andhaven't missed. Yeah, can I be
honest? This space not youhaven't missed recording only
because it's been a really busycouple of weeks. It's been a
nice break. I'm Elizabeth brink.
(00:24):
I'm Sarah Durham.
And we have this podcast to talkabout whatever we want to talk
about. And we are not going toedit. And we have very little
preparation. So right along ifyou want, feel free to get off
anytime, right. Okay, do youhave your good microphone setup?
(00:46):
I do. Canyou hear me? Okay? Well, it's a
little low. But oh, maybe it'smy speaker. Okay. Okay, so we're
gonna talk about freeze thefreeze response. So for those
who are unfamiliar with thethreat response cycle, our
nervous system automaticallyenacts these different
(01:09):
responses, fight, flight freeze,are the primary ones when, when
we sense threat, and thishappens before there is like a
cognitive knowing of what'sgoing on. So it's like, happens
in our physiology. For before,we have really a thought about
(01:32):
it. We have a thought about it,our systems already made the
decision, and has respondedwith, you know, one of these
states. And the freeze response,I think is really interesting,
for a lot of reasons, but Ithink it's particularly
interesting, because there areso many people who are living in
(01:52):
a functional freeze, and I usethe word functional very loosely
because they or people aroundthem may debate how functional
they are. And when I say they, Imean us. I mean, I'm counting
myself as part of thatpopulation, not necessarily
(02:13):
Sarah, I wasn't meaning toattach that to you. But if you
want to be with that, you can't.
So so I thought it'd be helpfulbecause I've talked to a lot of
clients recently about this. Andas we get toward like, end of
year, a lot of people experiencemore stress. Anyone who's
(02:34):
grieving or having a hard timetends to experience more intense
emotional, rehab, heaviness,whatever you want to call it,
trying to avoid Pathakpathologizing words, like
dysregulation, and it's justlike, yeah, you might just have
(02:54):
some big feels this time ofyear. And so I think the other
piece of it is that we're forcedto perform and a lot of ways,
depending on your background,your culture, your, the spaces
where you move in and out of,you're forced to show up and
function to varying degrees, inthe end of year, hustle for many
(03:17):
people, not everyone. And forthose who are forced to kind of
play the part, I think thatfeeling, our sense of internal
freeze, is like, it's so muchmore obvious. And sometimes it
can make people feel likedepressed or more anxious when
they notice how kind of detachedfrom what's actually happening
(03:40):
around them, they feel so whenyou're in a freeze state, you
are in the highest state ofactivation, which I think is so
important for people to knowthat it is not, it's not the
collapse the part where you'velike, frozen, and now you are
just like wiped out and you takea nap. Like that's not for you.
(04:01):
To freeze is the highest levelof activation. It's your nervous
system saying I can't fight, Ican't run I but I am so
activated. I want to do one ofthose and I can't and so I am
just going to play basicallyplay dead. But to do that every
single cell in my body has to beactivated to hold me still to
(04:23):
hold me into a place ofstillness so that I don't run or
fight back. And so I thinkunderstanding it as the highest
level of activation is reallyimportant. Because sometimes you
have an experience of being infreeze and you did nothing all
day long. And you're like why amI so tired? And it's like well,
(04:45):
you've been working hard sittingon the couch. So okay, so that's
that's just a very tiny bitabout freeze. There's there's so
much more but I don't want tooverload information but what I
think is it interesting is howconfusing it can be to know
like, Am I in freeze? Or is thator am I resting? Am I in like a?
(05:08):
I mean, I even asked my owntherapist like, is this health?
Or am I just like in a perpetualstate of freeze? Freezing? I'm
like, you know, midlife, I'm notcaring about as many things
anymore about other people'sopinions anymore. And so I'm
like, Am I in freeze? Or am Ifree?
(05:29):
Especially when you're someonewho's activated a lot? Yeah,
those personalities where we'relike, we have a lot of health
and have done a lot of work. Butjust our particular nervous
systems and our paths combine,Elizabeth and I are both
activated pretty easily. Andwe're doing work constantly in
that. So it is hard to know ifthe end result is am I resting?
(05:53):
Or was what I was what I wasdoing to like, do the work or to
kind of help myself was that?
Was it really doing that? Or wasit? Am I now frozen? And
super trippy? It's like, whichway is up? I don't know. Yeah,
so I think so there's somelanguage from somatic
(06:15):
experiencing from the trainingthat I've been doing around this
that I think is really helpful.
So it talks about freeze, as thestate of freeze is like a
circuit breaker. So it shutsdown your physiology, when it's
overloaded. And then this otheridea around, it happens
automatically. And sometimesit's sometimes it's it's
(06:37):
something that's passed downgenerations generations back,
where it's just like, the onlyviable option for survival is to
just be really still try toblend into the wallpaper, as
they used to say whichwallpapers back now. So maybe
people understand that saying,There was a period of time where
(06:59):
maybe, yeah, for any of thosemillennials out there that don't
know wallpaper. This anyway. SoI think it's interesting,
because when you are someone whois dealing with chronic stress,
which is most people, or if youhave trauma in your background,
(07:22):
if you're neurodivergent in someways, then I think identifying
when you're feeling frozen canbe really helpful. Like for me,
it doesn't necessarily like moveme out of a state of freeze to
notice it. Sometimes it does.
But it helps me to have atotally different perspective on
(07:45):
whatever I've been doing or notdoing it like completely
reframes entire days sometimesfor me. What's your experience
with Freeze? Or what's yourthoughts about it?
Well, I mean, you've been sayingthis for a little while you
you've been making this kind ofoffhanded joke or like, is this
health? Or is this real? Is thisrestaurant for like, a few
(08:06):
months now? So of course, it hasme thinking about it more. And,
you know, I'm like, am Iwatching this show? Am I binging
on below deck? Because I amfrozen? Or is this fun for me?
You know, and I think I'd belate lately is I'm probably in
phrase.
(08:27):
Almost exactly the question Iasked. I think it even was me
binging on below deck. Blackjackas a TV show. Just don't worry
about it.
Yeah, it's just, I'm owning myreality TV now. I'm just like,
I'm over it. Like, who cares? Iam, whatever I'll take action
from. So I've turned 50. And nowwhatever happens happens. So all
(08:53):
that to say, you know, I think Ithink what I I'm thinking about
it more, I'm thinking about itmore in terms of the functional
part. I think I have questionsabout it as far as like, when
you hit freeze. I know if itends up being functional freeze.
(09:14):
It's like probably because youcan't you're not getting the
things that you need for yoursystem to truly rest. I think
the where I, I guess we're in Iguess I want to ask you like, is
this right or not? But I guessyou know, we'll see if it's that
kind of a question. But when Icome out of like watching a
(09:35):
binge watching a show or doingsomething, do I feel connected
or do I feel drained, I come outof it like wanting to like, talk
to my kids and like oh, now Iwant to throw frisbee outside or
I can go take a walk now or messwith my art or am I looking for
something else? Like do I wantto slide under my bed or do I
(09:57):
want to like you know, dosomething even more dissociated
or more like away from that likewanting to connect. And that's
kind of the way I've beenfiltering it. Like, there's days
that I'll watch a show, and I'llbe doing art at the same time,
and I feel a type of way in mybody that is just a little more
(10:20):
alive and playful. So that'skind of does that make sense? I
mean, it's Yeah,yeah. So it's tricky, because
freeze feels so good. Okay. Itdoesn't always feel good, I'll
say just depends on thecircumstances. But I think
knowing your life circumstancesin mind, and being in midlife,
(10:44):
with the privileges that wehave, I think we have the
privilege of being able to feelinto freeze and it can feel good
to just feel like I can checkout I can dissociate a little I
can numb out whatever languageyou know, works.
Would you say functional? is alifestyle? And rest is a moment
(11:09):
or an event? Leave? I'm lookingback at the last month or two,
can you just be have been infunctional? You just didn't
know? And now I know. Or is it?
Can you be in it and be like,I'm in functional? Please? Is it
like, Ithink it's Yeah, I mean, here's
the thing about about freeze? Isthat like, there's the research
isn't that great on it? So Ithink, you know, a lot of it is
(11:33):
is like it's It depends, likemachine Hagar my somatic
experiencing. Teacher is alwaysthat's kind of how she answers
every question that anyone everasks. It's like, well, it
depends. So, so I'm, I have theinstinct to say that too, I
think, understanding that we gointo freeze because activation
(11:53):
is, is unbearable. So thatactivation gets so high, that it
shuts our system down into astate of freeze. So sometimes
when you're working with freezein a healing space, as somebody
comes out of freeze a little bitbeen right beneath that could be
(12:14):
a ton of activation, becauseit's it's protective, right?
Like it's protecting you fromhaving to sit in the buzzing of
the activation of what's goingon. And so I think they're, I
think the difficult thing, onedifficult thing, for
neurodivergent people are folkswho are chronically stressed is
(12:39):
that we also can deal with a lotof fatigue. And, and I think
that, you know, sometimes thatshutdown, feeling can be the
fatigue kicking in and the like,Oh, I'm not getting enough rest,
and my body is going going goingand it's shutting things down
and saying like, you just can't,you can't go any further. And so
(13:01):
that's where I think there'ssome nuance there and like, what
it feels and looks like for eachindividual. And getting to know
it, I think is where the wherethe power is, is like, oh, what
does it look like for me? So anexample is like, I sometime this
past year, there was a phonecall with somebody that I was
(13:25):
supposed to have. And I mean, ifyou're listening to this, and
you're like, I hate phone calls,you're probably neurodivergent.
I mean, that should just be likepart of the diagnostic criteria.
But I started this phone call.
It was planned with somebody whoI like and was looking forward
(13:47):
to talking to but it was goingto require a certain amount of
like, mental energy. And I don'tknow, I didn't really
investigate very much about mydon't want to mess around it.
But when it came time to havethe phone call, I felt really
resistant to it. And I wassitting on our couch and I was
like I didn't have clients. Itwas like midday, and I was
(14:10):
sitting on the couch and I wasthinking, Oh, I have to have
this phone call. This person isgoing to call I should just text
them right now and tell them Ican't talk. Something's come up.
Don't feel good whenever youknow. And and all of a sudden, I
started feeling really sleepy. Iwas like, Oh my gosh, I'm so
tired. I can't wait. I think Islept terribly last night. I'm I
(14:33):
feel like I probably need a nap.
I mean, this is around the timeI would take a nap if I needed
one. I'm just too tired for thiscall and I laid there letting
myself feel into like beingtired and feeling like I needed
to fall asleep like it was truesleepiness. And then it occurred
to me that it might be freeze. Imight be experiencing like my
(14:55):
system was so stressed aboutthis phone Call, it just started
to say like, let's just checkout, like, Come on, let's just
come over here late, lay yourhead down. And so I texted Anna
Lopez, who's really good friend,therapist, somatic, all these
things. And I'm like, Hey, doyou get sleepy when this whole
(15:19):
exchange around like, Yes, thisis super relatable. So I think
like in that situation I wasaware of like, I have this thing
and my body is having a responseto it. And then there was this
other layer of like, now Isuddenly feel sleepy, and it
seemed disconnected. But themore I was able to actually stay
(15:40):
present with it, and not justtake a nap and turn my ringer
off, and basically just no showthis person. I ended up having
the phone call with the person,which felt like a huge victory.
Like I let myself lay there, Iset a timer for like nine
minutes, it was ridiculous. Ihad like hardly any time, nine
minutes, and I let myself laythere and like full on, pretend
(16:03):
I was going to fall asleep,knowing there was an alarm, I
was like, just go for it, justease into it. And then the alarm
went off, I actually felt alittle rested, which was weird.
And I had this phone call. Itwas so energizing. It was I
loved it, it was such a goodconversation. And it was just
this example of how tricky oursystems can be, and how
(16:26):
disordered our relationship tothem can be because of the world
we're living in. And so that'swhy I'm always just like, it's
so important to get to know yoursystem, like what does freeze
look and feel like so, yes,sometimes when I'm watching TV,
I feel numb, I feel like I'm notpaying much attention to what's
(16:46):
happening. And it's just noise.
It's keeping me company. Andother times I feel like I'm
really engaged in the storyline.
And sometimes that's anindicator for me of like, am I?
Yeah, like what system? Whatpart of my system is online
right now. But I don't know ifit's like a hard science,
(17:08):
I have two things to say aboutthat example. First thing is, of
course, you feel better, becausewe always talked about you
taught me this, and I've read acourse about this, that social
connection is a way to get yoursystem back into the right
state. Right? So of course,right? So just so you know, the
first way to like move out of adis, you know, come lobulated
(17:32):
We're not going to use thetechnical term, but like you're
getting into activate it out ofactivation into like the ventral
is that right? The ventralstream? Is that immediate, like
kind of social connection,right? So but the second thing
is, so as you're describingthis, and you're sitting on the
couch, and I'm just imaginingyou talking about how you know,
(17:57):
you could just text this personlike basically you're flighting
yourself through to a nap.
Because isn't free freeze is themost you said it's a little
activation. So it starts off asflight, don't want to do it. I'm
going to Texas person I'mgetting out of dodge, this is
not my deal. Okay. And you wentfull width. So it sounds like
(18:19):
you flooded yourself intobasically freeze, which makes me
think if you're at the highestlevel, and I know there's it's
nuanced, we have sensitivenervous systems you and I do.
And you got your day. And also,I'm just curious to know. Like,
that's not a tip, that'sprobably because for you, I'm
(18:41):
sorry for you for you becauseyou probably were already
feeling activated from otherthings like you had not maybe
had enough rest that that thingwas going to send you into that
level of activation. The whereasnormally flight you might just
be like yeah, just texting getout of it or just move out of
that and just go ahead and justmake make the call but you
(19:03):
actually felt so activated. Sodo you think there were other
things? Absolutely. So that thatspeaks to like my capacity, I
didn't have the capacity to workwith those initial things that
were happening. And I thinkthat's that's like a baseline
state for me. So they're insomatic experiencing there is
(19:26):
this nervous system state calledGlobal high activation. And it's
where basically you are just alittle or a lot activated all
the time. So people who maybeidentify as having anxiety, they
might resonate with this, it maynot manifest an anxiety
necessarily so don't countyourself out. But um, but
(19:48):
machine says you know thatbecause of the state of the
world, we're going to see moreand more people are actually
operating with this level ofactivation all the time. There
are ability to access rest anddigest and like actual calm and
connection is depleted. And orit's just not available, the
(20:08):
system is like that is not safe,I need to be on guard, I need to
be activated I need to be movingand doing. And so because of
that, the more I live in thatactivated zone, the less room
there is, in my system, ifyou're imagining it like a
mountain top, if I'm like, kindof near the summit point, I
(20:29):
think that's what it's called. Idon't know why I use these
hiking metaphors, y'all. I'm nota hiker. And I always do this, I
have no idea what I'm actuallysaying. So. So if you're if
you're near the if you're nearthe summit, and you're
activated, your your nervoussystem is on that up, we're
tick, and the freeze is up atthe top. And I guess you know,
(20:52):
if I have hiked before, youknow, if you get all the way to
the top, and it was strenuoushike, you are kind of depleted,
and you do kind of go into acollapse, right? And, but
hopefully you don't stop movingbefore you get to the top, it
would be freeze. So let's see,it's falling apart. So if you're
living in this place whereyou're highly activated, and
(21:14):
you're not getting theflexibility in your nervous
system regularly, where you'removing in and out of these
different states, and you'reactually accessing real rest,
then what happens is somethinggoes wrong, and you have no
capacity, you're alreadyactivated, the only place to go
if something goes wrong is up.
(21:35):
And so if freeze is the higheststate of activation, it makes
sense that lots of people arestruggling with either ping
ponging between these states alot of like, you know, and when
I say activated, that's more oflike the busy body like busy
mind, maybe it's ruminatingthoughts, maybe it's even panic,
(21:57):
worry. It can look like someonewho's really busy. But it's
activated. It's like, I need tostay moving, I need to keep
doing there's too many things onmy list that's activated. So now
if something goes wrong, I'm notcoming from a baseline where I
can get activated, and it's notsuper disruptive. It's just
(22:19):
like, I'm a little worried.
Like, that part of the scale hasbeen lost for me. I'm up here in
this activated state whereanything goes wrong. And my
system has no capacity forextra. So yes, what you're
saying, absolutely is true that,you know, if I had had an I
don't remember because it wasseveral months ago. But if I had
had a really stressful day, Ithink at that time, I was
(22:42):
stressed in general aboutseveral things. I remember now.
Things with my business, I hadsome travel. And so yeah, like,
if I'm already activated, thenan extra stressor is just going
to send me into this place oflike immobility, where I'm just
going to feel like I can't goany further. I'm stuck.
(23:02):
It makes so much sense that I'mjust thinking about when people
talk about, or when we talkabout spoons, right, just for
like energy level, are they ableto like, you know, expend energy
on mental or physical tasks, Ithink about in terms of
activation. And getting to thatpoint. If I were looking at
(23:23):
like, kind of through SpoonTheory, I guess, you know, it's
one of the reasons why I've beenthinking so much about social
media lately, because when I amon social media, I'm immediately
active. Even if I have reallygreat people I'm following or
whatever, there's always goingto be something that's going to
(23:44):
slip in with the state of theworld between like climate
crisis, Palestine, I mean, justall of these different things,
you know, the election, you justdo one little thing, and well, I
do and I'm, like, immediatelyactivated. And so that stays
with me, you know, even the ACTanything.
(24:07):
But even getting into a socialmedia platform, activates your
system, because there's so manyplaces to look. So you instantly
are engaged in like scanning,you're scanning, you're looking,
you're looking for the peoplethat you want to look at the
things you want to look at.
You're instantly bringing yoursystem online into like
surveilling the situation. Well,yeah. Because that's like, aside
(24:28):
from the content.
Okay. Yeah. Because I want to Iwant to say something about
that, too, because I think it'san important point that you make
with me pretty often, in that,that the activation part does
not have to be negative, andthat's part of our fire too. So
when we see something on socialmedia, and we're scanning and
(24:49):
looking at like our system isengaged, and if I see something
that could be really positive,right is that that's part of my
life. I want to like engage withthat. I want to do something
with that. It's inspiring methat it doesn't have to
Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's stilllike, it's still inspiring
action. And, and that requiresactivation in your system to
(25:14):
take action. Right? So, yeah,I'm also saying that just the
logistics of like, needing tolook around, right is is
encouraging this vigilance oflike, Did I see all the right
people stuff that kind of setsyou up for then when there's
content that's also activating,you're just you're already on
(25:36):
the ladder, you're already likeclimbed way up there.
And so someone had these reallygreat memes the other day, and
they were using neurodiverseincorrectly. And I really wanted
to use them. And I was like,these are really great names.
But it really annoyed me that Icould not use them.
We'll see. And then this is whythere's internet trolls, because
(25:58):
they're on there. They're allthey're seeing all this stuff.
And they can't not saysomething, they can't not snap
back and make a comment. Andit's just like the worst part of
humanity in the comment section.
But yeah, so here's here's oneillustration that that machine
also shared with us that she gotfrom Kathy Kane about what
freeze looks like. So if youimagine, and I may have told you
(26:21):
this before, but just pretendlike I have it. So if you
imagine like a water well, inthe ground, like a brick wall,
and someone falling into it. Soit can be any kind of hole. But
it's got it's got formed sides,it has strong sides, right?
There's cement or their brick,and they're falling down. And
(26:42):
they catch themselves with theirhands and feet on the walls on
the sides of this thing so thatthey don't fall all the way to
the bottom and get really hurt.
So they're holding themselvessteady on the sides. And they
are like if I even think I mightfall, Liddell and move a single
cell in my body, right? That'sfreeze. So when you have someone
(27:05):
or you yourself are experiencingfreeze, and someone comes along
and says like, all you gotta do,oh, just get Have you thought
of, have you gotten want to, oh,I'm gonna send you a link. Or
like, Hey, let me help you. Whatcan I do to help this happens
with people all the time? Whatcan I do to help I want to help
you. It's like, I can't answerthat I'm trying to stay alive. I
(27:28):
need to hold really tight, sothat I don't fall. So then we
get relational conflict cominginto the picture, because
they've got someone who caresabout them saying, I want to
help, what do you need, and theycan't vocalize it for maybe a
number of reasons. But one ofthem could be that their system
is in this state of preservationand stillness. And so looking
(27:52):
for signs of, of connection,rather than, Oh, they're not
answering me or they don't havemuch to say, or they never know
how they feel. And they neverknow what they need. Right. It's
like, maybe just starting with asimple like, we talked in the
last thing about the theappreciation practice, but it
(28:13):
doesn't have to be that butlike, gratitude does turn on
your relational channels in yourbrain. So even if you can
internally for yourself, and Ithis gonna sound kind of
gimmicky, but whatever, y'all,it's science in our works. But
if you can, you know, think ofsomething that you're grateful
for, if you can get into arelational headspace and you can
(28:33):
invite that person into that,you might see some of that
freeze, thaw a little bit, youmight be able to connect a
little bit. movement also doestend to move people out of
freeze. And one thing that AnnaLopez said, when we talked about
this on a podcast once, and shewas saying that sometimes if she
(28:56):
is struggling with Freeze, likewith getting out of bed in the
morning, she will envisionherself doing like a certain
yoga pose. Like she'll envisionsome kind of movement. And like
she's doing it and then it helpsher nervous system to kind of
shift and she's able, she's nextthing she knows she's out of
bed, doing the next thing sheneeds to do. So I think
(29:18):
sometimes like working with theimagination, and some of the
creative ways in which we cancommunicate with our bodies
without words can be reallyhelpful. If you're feeling like
maybe you are in a little bit ofa sad because you've said we've
talked about anchors before andthat makes perfect sense if that
we can show if we can show ourbodies that were safer. Right?
(29:41):
Just a little more ease, right?
Because we can't so expect likesomeone just to jump on the well
and all of a sudden be likeboom, I'm ready to go. Yeah. But
like to where they can move backup to fight to crawl up a little
bit or to grab your hands. Isthat what you're saying? Nothing
more. Yeah, it's like whenyou're immobilized. When, and I
(30:08):
keep talking about somaticexperiencing, sorry, it's just
gonna happen. But one of thethings that Peter Levine talks
about is that the freezeresponse and fear get bundled
together. And so when we startto feel immobilized when we
start to feel, feel thestillness of freeze, the
(30:30):
stuckness of freeze, for some ofus, that feels scary, and it
makes us think that we arescared. And so we're not always
scared, but but our system isresponding in this self
preservation way that I thinkcan lead to some confusion. So I
think when you think about ananimal in the wild, who is
(30:54):
playing dead and waiting for thepredator to run off, and then
they slowly kind of, it lookslike come back to life, you can
Google this, it's wild. Youknow, what we see is that
there's this ability to holdthat free state for a period of
time, and then that immobilityhas to be kind of worked out and
(31:20):
shaken off, or whatever youwould see an animal do. And
that's where I think we don'tget a chance to do that full
process, because our lives areso stressful. So we just kind of
like constantly circle, thissame loop where we go, right, we
just get enough collapse, right,I get a nine minute nap. To get
me back into the game, rightback into activation, I'm still
(31:43):
not that far away from freezeagain. I've like just barely
given myself a little bit ofcollapse, so I can get back into
it.
I hear that in clients whereit's like, despair, like, I've
just why even bother. And thenlife, you got to get up, go to
work, you have to do differentthings. And then all of a
(32:04):
sudden, it seems like they're inbeing able to like do a thing.
And like, you know, connected alittle bit. And then they're
fighting a bear on the street ordoing that. And then they're
right back there a few dayslater. Yes. Right. They're just
right back there a few dayslater. So what you're saying is
that, that process of reallylike, rebuilding and kind of
(32:30):
getting up out of that reallyexhaustive state. While we're
incredible, aren't we? Oh, weare I know, it's like,
seriously? Yeah. Takingadvantage of our nervous systems
right now. And we need to liketo figure out how to do this for
ourselves. Right, like, but it'sso hard because our systems are
(32:51):
set up. Like, who had like yousaid, with privilege or who has
time?
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it'sit is always
take a lot of time, like, like,I guess I'm curious about that.
I guess it just depends, right?
It does. Yeah, it just depends.
But I think too, it's, you know,this is why I love the nap
ministry and her work. And ofcourse, I'm like totally spacing
(33:15):
on her name because I'mterrible. Is Tricia Hersey. Yes,
for sure her see the napministry just talking about rest
as a radical practice. And thething about an activated nervous
system that has been activatedfor a very long time, which is a
(33:35):
lot of us is that sometimes realrest feels scary. And it's not
something we can just like forceourselves into, it's like very
tiny bits of it, building acapacity for it over time, so
that the nervous system startsto learn, Hey, it's okay if we
(33:57):
slow down and don't likeoverfill our schedule. Because
rust isnot just about sleep it it's
about like play Joy connection,things that like if we are in
like a grind culture and theproductivity culture and we are
go go go it's one thing forsomeone to say oh, you know
(34:18):
what, I'm going to get extra naptoday like trying to titrate
that rest in but rest therelooks a lot of different ways.
We're very you know, complexpeople, you know, humans and so
active, you know, actuallyparticipating in little joyful
moments or small luxuries thatextra can be scarier, and more
uncomfortable than say, I'mgonna take the weekend. I'm not
(34:42):
going to go out this week andI'm just going to chill and
you're like, why am I stilltired? Yeah,
yeah. Are you spend the wholeweekend dissociating, you know,
watching lots of television butnot really watching it. You
know, when I lived alone, wayback In the day, like, I spent a
lot of my free time, just likekind of killing time, like just
(35:07):
getting it to get by withoutrealizing that that's what I was
doing. And feeling like, well, Ineed this, I deserve this. I've
been working so hard all week,I've been so busy lately. But
then I wasn't actually feelingrefreshed. I wasn't feeling like
I was getting out of it whatother people were talking about
(35:28):
that they would get out of, youknow, downtime, you on
that call the example youbrought up earlier, you're going
into that nap would not havefixed the problem. It was
because you engaged with thatperson. That you know, that's
not always the case. But I'mtalking for this specific
scenario, when you said you cameout of the night, wow, I felt
really good after talking.
(35:50):
Some of it is because it was apositive conversation, where I
was able to discharge some ofthe activation. Because I was
using my voice. We were veryexcited. We were sharing ideas.
It was like very invigorating.
And I think some of that stressenergy that had been built up
released in the conversation.
But I think actually that thatnet with that little nap did
(36:13):
that little tiny rest. I thinkit actually just gave my body
what it wanted. It was like I'mtoo activated, I need to shut
down. And this has happened mywhole life. And I have all these
curiosities aroundneurodivergent, especially ADHD,
folks who get diagnoses ofnarcolepsy. Because when we're
(36:35):
bored, we can tend to feel supersleepy. And so I have all these
like curiosities around thisbecause my whole life, if I go
to a professional conference, Inow know I have to book a room
in the hotel where the event isbecause I am going to have to go
and lay down. Otherwise I havein I have risked falling asleep
(36:56):
in public, which is like myworst nightmare. I'm so scared
of doing that. So I won't dothat. I'll fidget. I'll do all
kinds of things. I'll stand atthe back of the room, I'll sit
at the back of the room. But Ihave this fear about falling
asleep in important places likewhile driving the car. And like,
Could I go convince somebodythat I have narcolepsy? I don't
probably not. I don't actuallyknow what the criteria is. But I
(37:19):
think about my system and how itresponds to over activation was
sleepiness and how it respondsto boredom with sleepiness, like
I have this propensity to get toa place where I just feel like I
must be really actuallyphysically tired and need to
rest. So I do think that thatnap. I do think it gave my body
(37:44):
a little of what it needed andwanted in that moment, and it
gave me a little bit of capacityto accept the phone call when I
got it. And then I think havingthe conversation energize me
because I'm an extrovert. Andbecause of all of the things I
said before about just thephysicality of conversation for
me, especially as I'm a veryphysical person, when I'm
(38:05):
talking my arms move, and myvoice fluctuates and all that.
But having conversations is alsoa stressor, right? It's also a
certain activation and astressor. So that's why I'm
saying like, there's this loopthat we get kind of stuck in
around activation and moreactivation and a little less
(38:27):
activation and more activation,but not often getting to that
place of what's my baseline.
What does it look like? Do Ieven know what it feels like in
my body to feel rested? Well,I know taking like the year off
after teaching and reallylearning how to play and
experience joy and in breastthere was a lot of crying. There
(38:50):
was a lot of uncomfortablenessyou think like oh, you what's
your problem? You got this timeoff and I was like, Ooh,
gnashing of teeth. Like it wasit was such a process. And now I
feel broken. Because my systemwill only let me get to Sir, I
was so hyper vigilant. I was amachine when I was a teacher.
(39:14):
You know, I mean, like being amom of three and like, just like
take care of myself do I meantake care of myself when I say
that? I mean like exercisingwhen I'm actually taking care of
myself. Um, but like Yeah, Ithink that's been my question.
This year is broken and brokenin like the the eyes of society
(39:39):
in the systems like, can I everengage in hostile culture again,
to the point where I canactually get the things that I
want to get because like, bysystem because I'm
neurodivergent and midlife Can Igather, Gather ye resources I'm
like, do the thing now? BecauseI've actually learned how to do
(40:02):
that. Does that make sense toyou? Yes. Yeah. Because I feel
like when I think about that,that woman who taught me in that
space, yeah, it broke me to thepoint where like, I had to,
like, I collapse my bodycollapse. I had to like, this
was not like, just this waslike, I was having panic
attacks, I mean, all kinds ofstuff. And there was it was
(40:26):
nuanced, it was layered, but atthe same time, taking that time
off, now that I need to, like,get into my fire, it's a little
trickier. It's a little it's notas revved up. It's not as Yeah,
it's, it's like feels so vanillacompared to what we used to be
(40:49):
able to do. Ithink you're asking, like, is
this life or is this freeze,because it's like, when I when I
think about being freeze, Ithink like my window of
tolerance, which we're not gonnaget into today. We've talked
about, we'll talk about itanother time, because it's
getting late. But it's so muchmy capacity is so much bigger.
So my gut says, I am not infreeze, my gut says, I might
(41:13):
have moments or like, I mighthave like periods, of course,
because I have stressors. Butlike, I'm doing things to, like,
move in and out of thesedifferent states. I have a lot
of support in different ways todo those things. And guys still
dissociate. I still don't soit's not about like this. I'm
(41:35):
like, I'm accessing my fullhumanity. Okay. Well, yeah,
I mean, a healthy nervous systemis one that can access all the
states when they're needed.
Right. And so I'm thinking it'sjust vanilla. I think I'm much
less we want you to come tothis. sighs we're not
advertising, butI think a little bit of what
you're describing, I think islike your trauma. I think it's
(41:55):
like, you know, someone withtrauma gets through can get to a
place of healing and healingfeels so disorient disorienting
feel so unfamiliar. It's like,what you're describing exactly
that like, okay, but can I readanymore? Well, yeah, but like,
(42:15):
you were so highly revved like,that was not good for your body,
that was not good for you. Thatis what leads to chronic
illness. That's what leads todisease, quite literally in the
body. So I think it's a realshift in perspective. And in
goals, really, in expectations.
(42:38):
When I have a client come andsay, I just really got to figure
out how to get back to a placewhere I can XYZ, and they are a
person with ovaries in their40s. I'm like up, okay, here we
go. We got some work to do.
Because it's not about gettingback to that place. It's about
renegotiating the relationshipwith your body, with the systems
(42:59):
around you, the people aroundyou with yourself. And my
reading now looks like I canactually show up to that social
thing I want to go to that Isaid I was gonna go to, because
I have time and capacity for it.
It doesn't look like Oh, I didfive social things. And I
volunteered for this and I amworking, you know this much. And
(43:22):
I right like I'm, I'm not overfunctioning anymore. And that
for me with my history feelslike under functioning.
Yeah, I think we're in the samespot. I think that's the bottom
line of this conversation islike we're functioning. We are
function. We're like reach we'refinding our bait our new
baseline. Yeah,we're Yeah, I mean, that's true.
And it's it's strange. Itis strange, but it's so good.
(43:46):
And I had a conversation withCory just the other day where he
was really appreciating in ourappreciation practice. He was
which we're still doing, y'all.
We're still doing it. It's beenweeks. And it is like some kind
of magic because it is reallyshifting some things for me
internally, if you don't knowI'm talking about listen to the
(44:08):
last episode, because I'm notgonna explain it again. But he
was appreciating that I have areal sense of my capacity. And
that I know when I need to sayno, and I know when I when my
yes is a yes. And it made mecry. It was like to have him see
that in me when I don't evenknow if I've really identified
(44:29):
that for myself. Until thispoint, you know that this like,
yeah, I I do have a sense of mylimits. And that was definitely
not true a year ago was anbeyond word.
Yes, for sure. I see that I needto and I would say true. Not a
year ago or so. Andit's so much better, y'all. It's
so much better. So come over tothe other side. Yeah. Okay.
(44:51):
We're gonna go I know I'm sorry.
This is I was gonna know, thisisn't worried about
This and it is so relevant witheverything. Listen, I want to
say this too, because we'rewrapping up the year. I mean,
we're not wrapping that we willprobably have on the podcast by
the end of in December but 2023If you're if you if no one has
(45:16):
said this to you was not good.
Even if you think it was good.
Listen, I had I had joy thisyear, I had some really cool
things happen, like really mindblowing cool things. But they
were few and far between. Mostof it was full time doing the
(45:37):
work to, to kind of reallyaccess that full humanity that
we were talking about. It was alot of work to be at baseline
this year. Yeah. And so ifyou're feeling like, feeling it,
just whatever we're with you wasa lot. And, you know, I'm not
(46:01):
gonna think about 2024 yet. I'mjust gonna, like, say that right
here right now. Like we're withyou in that. And
yeah, I feel like, I have thispicture in my head of being like
little and on a grassy hill andin, you know, laying like a
burrito and having someone pushyou down in it. It's not that
(46:21):
fun in my imagination, butthat's how I'm going into 2024.
So it's about right. I'm beingkind of pushed into it. And I'm
just like, whatever. Let's justrolling. Let's see if we can
make it fun on the way in.
Yeah, I'm glad we have eachother. Me too.
I love you. Love you too. Allright, well, I guess that's how
(46:44):
we end a lot of conversation.
That's actually very fitting forthe sleepy sisters.
That's how we should sign upevery sign up. I gotta go to
bed. All right, I'll see youlater. Bye.
Hello, the sky.
The Sleepy sisters are back.
It's been a couple of weeks andhaven't missed. Yeah, can I be
honest? This space not youhaven't missed recording only
because it's been a really busycouple of weeks. It's been a
nice break. I'm Elizabeth brink.
(00:24):
I'm Sarah Durham.
And we have this podcast to talkabout whatever we want to talk
about. And we are not going toedit. And we have very little
preparation. So right along ifyou want, feel free to get off
anytime, right. Okay, do youhave your good microphone setup?
(00:46):
I do. Canyou hear me? Okay? Well, it's a
little low. But oh, maybe it'smy speaker. Okay. Okay, so we're
gonna talk about freeze thefreeze response. So for those
who are unfamiliar with thethreat response cycle, our
nervous system automaticallyenacts these different
(01:09):
responses, fight, flight freeze,are the primary ones when, when
we sense threat, and thishappens before there is like a
cognitive knowing of what'sgoing on. So it's like, happens
in our physiology. For before,we have really a thought about
(01:32):
it. We have a thought about it,our systems already made the
decision, and has respondedwith, you know, one of these
states. And the freeze response,I think is really interesting,
for a lot of reasons, but Ithink it's particularly
interesting, because there areso many people who are living in
(01:52):
a functional freeze, and I usethe word functional very loosely
because they or people aroundthem may debate how functional
they are. And when I say they, Imean us. I mean, I'm counting
myself as part of thatpopulation, not necessarily
(02:13):
Sarah, I wasn't meaning toattach that to you. But if you
want to be with that, you can't.
So so I thought it'd be helpfulbecause I've talked to a lot of
clients recently about this. Andas we get toward like, end of
year, a lot of people experiencemore stress. Anyone who's
(02:34):
grieving or having a hard timetends to experience more intense
emotional, rehab, heaviness,whatever you want to call it,
trying to avoid Pathakpathologizing words, like
dysregulation, and it's justlike, yeah, you might just have
(02:54):
some big feels this time ofyear. And so I think the other
piece of it is that we're forcedto perform and a lot of ways,
depending on your background,your culture, your, the spaces
where you move in and out of,you're forced to show up and
function to varying degrees, inthe end of year, hustle for many
(03:17):
people, not everyone. And forthose who are forced to kind of
play the part, I think thatfeeling, our sense of internal
freeze, is like, it's so muchmore obvious. And sometimes it
can make people feel likedepressed or more anxious when
they notice how kind of detachedfrom what's actually happening
(03:40):
around them, they feel so whenyou're in a freeze state, you
are in the highest state ofactivation, which I think is so
important for people to knowthat it is not, it's not the
collapse the part where you'velike, frozen, and now you are
just like wiped out and you takea nap. Like that's not for you.
(04:01):
To freeze is the highest levelof activation. It's your nervous
system saying I can't fight, Ican't run I but I am so
activated. I want to do one ofthose and I can't and so I am
just going to play basicallyplay dead. But to do that every
single cell in my body has to beactivated to hold me still to
(04:23):
hold me into a place ofstillness so that I don't run or
fight back. And so I thinkunderstanding it as the highest
level of activation is reallyimportant. Because sometimes you
have an experience of being infreeze and you did nothing all
day long. And you're like why amI so tired? And it's like well,
(04:45):
you've been working hard sittingon the couch. So okay, so that's
that's just a very tiny bitabout freeze. There's there's so
much more but I don't want tooverload information but what I
think is it interesting is howconfusing it can be to know
like, Am I in freeze? Or is thator am I resting? Am I in like a?
(05:08):
I mean, I even asked my owntherapist like, is this health?
Or am I just like in a perpetualstate of freeze? Freezing? I'm
like, you know, midlife, I'm notcaring about as many things
anymore about other people'sopinions anymore. And so I'm
like, Am I in freeze? Or am Ifree?
(05:29):
Especially when you're someonewho's activated a lot? Yeah,
those personalities where we'relike, we have a lot of health
and have done a lot of work. Butjust our particular nervous
systems and our paths combine,Elizabeth and I are both
activated pretty easily. Andwe're doing work constantly in
that. So it is hard to know ifthe end result is am I resting?
(05:53):
Or was what I was what I wasdoing to like, do the work or to
kind of help myself was that?
Was it really doing that? Or wasit? Am I now frozen? And
super trippy? It's like, whichway is up? I don't know. Yeah,
so I think so there's somelanguage from somatic
(06:15):
experiencing from the trainingthat I've been doing around this
that I think is really helpful.
So it talks about freeze, as thestate of freeze is like a
circuit breaker. So it shutsdown your physiology, when it's
overloaded. And then this otheridea around, it happens
automatically. And sometimesit's sometimes it's it's
(06:37):
something that's passed downgenerations generations back,
where it's just like, the onlyviable option for survival is to
just be really still try toblend into the wallpaper, as
they used to say whichwallpapers back now. So maybe
people understand that saying,There was a period of time where
(06:59):
maybe, yeah, for any of thosemillennials out there that don't
know wallpaper. This anyway. SoI think it's interesting,
because when you are someone whois dealing with chronic stress,
which is most people, or if youhave trauma in your background,
(07:22):
if you're neurodivergent in someways, then I think identifying
when you're feeling frozen canbe really helpful. Like for me,
it doesn't necessarily like moveme out of a state of freeze to
notice it. Sometimes it does.
But it helps me to have atotally different perspective on
(07:45):
whatever I've been doing or notdoing it like completely
reframes entire days sometimesfor me. What's your experience
with Freeze? Or what's yourthoughts about it?
Well, I mean, you've been sayingthis for a little while you
you've been making this kind ofoffhanded joke or like, is this
health? Or is this real? Is thisrestaurant for like, a few
(08:06):
months now? So of course, it hasme thinking about it more. And,
you know, I'm like, am Iwatching this show? Am I binging
on below deck? Because I amfrozen? Or is this fun for me?
You know, and I think I'd belate lately is I'm probably in
phrase.
(08:27):
Almost exactly the question Iasked. I think it even was me
binging on below deck. Blackjackas a TV show. Just don't worry
about it.
Yeah, it's just, I'm owning myreality TV now. I'm just like,
I'm over it. Like, who cares? Iam, whatever I'll take action
from. So I've turned 50. And nowwhatever happens happens. So all
(08:53):
that to say, you know, I think Ithink what I I'm thinking about
it more, I'm thinking about itmore in terms of the functional
part. I think I have questionsabout it as far as like, when
you hit freeze. I know if itends up being functional freeze.
(09:14):
It's like probably because youcan't you're not getting the
things that you need for yoursystem to truly rest. I think
the where I, I guess we're in Iguess I want to ask you like, is
this right or not? But I guessyou know, we'll see if it's that
kind of a question. But when Icome out of like watching a
(09:35):
binge watching a show or doingsomething, do I feel connected
or do I feel drained, I come outof it like wanting to like, talk
to my kids and like oh, now Iwant to throw frisbee outside or
I can go take a walk now or messwith my art or am I looking for
something else? Like do I wantto slide under my bed or do I
(09:57):
want to like you know, dosomething even more dissociated
or more like away from that likewanting to connect. And that's
kind of the way I've beenfiltering it. Like, there's days
that I'll watch a show, and I'llbe doing art at the same time,
and I feel a type of way in mybody that is just a little more
(10:20):
alive and playful. So that'skind of does that make sense? I
mean, it's Yeah,yeah. So it's tricky, because
freeze feels so good. Okay. Itdoesn't always feel good, I'll
say just depends on thecircumstances. But I think
knowing your life circumstancesin mind, and being in midlife,
(10:44):
with the privileges that wehave, I think we have the
privilege of being able to feelinto freeze and it can feel good
to just feel like I can checkout I can dissociate a little I
can numb out whatever languageyou know, works.
Would you say functional? is alifestyle? And rest is a moment
(11:09):
or an event? Leave? I'm lookingback at the last month or two,
can you just be have been infunctional? You just didn't
know? And now I know. Or is it?
Can you be in it and be like,I'm in functional? Please? Is it
like, Ithink it's Yeah, I mean, here's
the thing about about freeze? Isthat like, there's the research
isn't that great on it? So Ithink, you know, a lot of it is
(11:33):
is like it's It depends, likemachine Hagar my somatic
experiencing. Teacher is alwaysthat's kind of how she answers
every question that anyone everasks. It's like, well, it
depends. So, so I'm, I have theinstinct to say that too, I
think, understanding that we gointo freeze because activation
(11:53):
is, is unbearable. So thatactivation gets so high, that it
shuts our system down into astate of freeze. So sometimes
when you're working with freezein a healing space, as somebody
comes out of freeze a little bitbeen right beneath that could be
(12:14):
a ton of activation, becauseit's it's protective, right?
Like it's protecting you fromhaving to sit in the buzzing of
the activation of what's goingon. And so I think they're, I
think the difficult thing, onedifficult thing, for
neurodivergent people are folkswho are chronically stressed is
(12:39):
that we also can deal with a lotof fatigue. And, and I think
that, you know, sometimes thatshutdown, feeling can be the
fatigue kicking in and the like,Oh, I'm not getting enough rest,
and my body is going going goingand it's shutting things down
and saying like, you just can't,you can't go any further. And so
(13:01):
that's where I think there'ssome nuance there and like, what
it feels and looks like for eachindividual. And getting to know
it, I think is where the wherethe power is, is like, oh, what
does it look like for me? So anexample is like, I sometime this
past year, there was a phonecall with somebody that I was
(13:25):
supposed to have. And I mean, ifyou're listening to this, and
you're like, I hate phone calls,you're probably neurodivergent.
I mean, that should just be likepart of the diagnostic criteria.
But I started this phone call.
It was planned with somebody whoI like and was looking forward
(13:47):
to talking to but it was goingto require a certain amount of
like, mental energy. And I don'tknow, I didn't really
investigate very much about mydon't want to mess around it.
But when it came time to havethe phone call, I felt really
resistant to it. And I wassitting on our couch and I was
like I didn't have clients. Itwas like midday, and I was
(14:10):
sitting on the couch and I wasthinking, Oh, I have to have
this phone call. This person isgoing to call I should just text
them right now and tell them Ican't talk. Something's come up.
Don't feel good whenever youknow. And and all of a sudden, I
started feeling really sleepy. Iwas like, Oh my gosh, I'm so
tired. I can't wait. I think Islept terribly last night. I'm I
(14:33):
feel like I probably need a nap.
I mean, this is around the timeI would take a nap if I needed
one. I'm just too tired for thiscall and I laid there letting
myself feel into like beingtired and feeling like I needed
to fall asleep like it was truesleepiness. And then it occurred
to me that it might be freeze. Imight be experiencing like my
(14:55):
system was so stressed aboutthis phone Call, it just started
to say like, let's just checkout, like, Come on, let's just
come over here late, lay yourhead down. And so I texted Anna
Lopez, who's really good friend,therapist, somatic, all these
things. And I'm like, Hey, doyou get sleepy when this whole
(15:19):
exchange around like, Yes, thisis super relatable. So I think
like in that situation I wasaware of like, I have this thing
and my body is having a responseto it. And then there was this
other layer of like, now Isuddenly feel sleepy, and it
seemed disconnected. But themore I was able to actually stay
(15:40):
present with it, and not justtake a nap and turn my ringer
off, and basically just no showthis person. I ended up having
the phone call with the person,which felt like a huge victory.
Like I let myself lay there, Iset a timer for like nine
minutes, it was ridiculous. Ihad like hardly any time, nine
minutes, and I let myself laythere and like full on, pretend
(16:03):
I was going to fall asleep,knowing there was an alarm, I
was like, just go for it, justease into it. And then the alarm
went off, I actually felt alittle rested, which was weird.
And I had this phone call. Itwas so energizing. It was I
loved it, it was such a goodconversation. And it was just
this example of how tricky oursystems can be, and how
(16:26):
disordered our relationship tothem can be because of the world
we're living in. And so that'swhy I'm always just like, it's
so important to get to know yoursystem, like what does freeze
look and feel like so, yes,sometimes when I'm watching TV,
I feel numb, I feel like I'm notpaying much attention to what's
(16:46):
happening. And it's just noise.
It's keeping me company. Andother times I feel like I'm
really engaged in the storyline.
And sometimes that's anindicator for me of like, am I?
Yeah, like what system? Whatpart of my system is online
right now. But I don't know ifit's like a hard science,
(17:08):
I have two things to say aboutthat example. First thing is, of
course, you feel better, becausewe always talked about you
taught me this, and I've read acourse about this, that social
connection is a way to get yoursystem back into the right
state. Right? So of course,right? So just so you know, the
first way to like move out of adis, you know, come lobulated
(17:32):
We're not going to use thetechnical term, but like you're
getting into activate it out ofactivation into like the ventral
is that right? The ventralstream? Is that immediate, like
kind of social connection,right? So but the second thing
is, so as you're describingthis, and you're sitting on the
couch, and I'm just imaginingyou talking about how you know,
(17:57):
you could just text this personlike basically you're flighting
yourself through to a nap.
Because isn't free freeze is themost you said it's a little
activation. So it starts off asflight, don't want to do it. I'm
going to Texas person I'mgetting out of dodge, this is
not my deal. Okay. And you wentfull width. So it sounds like
(18:19):
you flooded yourself intobasically freeze, which makes me
think if you're at the highestlevel, and I know there's it's
nuanced, we have sensitivenervous systems you and I do.
And you got your day. And also,I'm just curious to know. Like,
that's not a tip, that'sprobably because for you, I'm
(18:41):
sorry for you for you becauseyou probably were already
feeling activated from otherthings like you had not maybe
had enough rest that that thingwas going to send you into that
level of activation. The whereasnormally flight you might just
be like yeah, just texting getout of it or just move out of
that and just go ahead and justmake make the call but you
(19:03):
actually felt so activated. Sodo you think there were other
things? Absolutely. So that thatspeaks to like my capacity, I
didn't have the capacity to workwith those initial things that
were happening. And I thinkthat's that's like a baseline
state for me. So they're insomatic experiencing there is
(19:26):
this nervous system state calledGlobal high activation. And it's
where basically you are just alittle or a lot activated all
the time. So people who maybeidentify as having anxiety, they
might resonate with this, it maynot manifest an anxiety
necessarily so don't countyourself out. But um, but
(19:48):
machine says you know thatbecause of the state of the
world, we're going to see moreand more people are actually
operating with this level ofactivation all the time. There
are ability to access rest anddigest and like actual calm and
connection is depleted. And orit's just not available, the
(20:08):
system is like that is not safe,I need to be on guard, I need to
be activated I need to be movingand doing. And so because of
that, the more I live in thatactivated zone, the less room
there is, in my system, ifyou're imagining it like a
mountain top, if I'm like, kindof near the summit point, I
(20:29):
think that's what it's called. Idon't know why I use these
hiking metaphors, y'all. I'm nota hiker. And I always do this, I
have no idea what I'm actuallysaying. So. So if you're if
you're near the if you're nearthe summit, and you're
activated, your your nervoussystem is on that up, we're
tick, and the freeze is up atthe top. And I guess you know,
(20:52):
if I have hiked before, youknow, if you get all the way to
the top, and it was strenuoushike, you are kind of depleted,
and you do kind of go into acollapse, right? And, but
hopefully you don't stop movingbefore you get to the top, it
would be freeze. So let's see,it's falling apart. So if you're
living in this place whereyou're highly activated, and
(21:14):
you're not getting theflexibility in your nervous
system regularly, where you'removing in and out of these
different states, and you'reactually accessing real rest,
then what happens is somethinggoes wrong, and you have no
capacity, you're alreadyactivated, the only place to go
if something goes wrong is up.
(21:35):
And so if freeze is the higheststate of activation, it makes
sense that lots of people arestruggling with either ping
ponging between these states alot of like, you know, and when
I say activated, that's more oflike the busy body like busy
mind, maybe it's ruminatingthoughts, maybe it's even panic,
(21:57):
worry. It can look like someonewho's really busy. But it's
activated. It's like, I need tostay moving, I need to keep
doing there's too many things onmy list that's activated. So now
if something goes wrong, I'm notcoming from a baseline where I
can get activated, and it's notsuper disruptive. It's just
(22:19):
like, I'm a little worried.
Like, that part of the scale hasbeen lost for me. I'm up here in
this activated state whereanything goes wrong. And my
system has no capacity forextra. So yes, what you're
saying, absolutely is true that,you know, if I had had an I
don't remember because it wasseveral months ago. But if I had
had a really stressful day, Ithink at that time, I was
(22:42):
stressed in general aboutseveral things. I remember now.
Things with my business, I hadsome travel. And so yeah, like,
if I'm already activated, thenan extra stressor is just going
to send me into this place oflike immobility, where I'm just
going to feel like I can't goany further. I'm stuck.
(23:02):
It makes so much sense that I'mjust thinking about when people
talk about, or when we talkabout spoons, right, just for
like energy level, are they ableto like, you know, expend energy
on mental or physical tasks, Ithink about in terms of
activation. And getting to thatpoint. If I were looking at
(23:23):
like, kind of through SpoonTheory, I guess, you know, it's
one of the reasons why I've beenthinking so much about social
media lately, because when I amon social media, I'm immediately
active. Even if I have reallygreat people I'm following or
whatever, there's always goingto be something that's going to
(23:44):
slip in with the state of theworld between like climate
crisis, Palestine, I mean, justall of these different things,
you know, the election, you justdo one little thing, and well, I
do and I'm, like, immediatelyactivated. And so that stays
with me, you know, even the ACTanything.
(24:07):
But even getting into a socialmedia platform, activates your
system, because there's so manyplaces to look. So you instantly
are engaged in like scanning,you're scanning, you're looking,
you're looking for the peoplethat you want to look at the
things you want to look at.
You're instantly bringing yoursystem online into like
surveilling the situation. Well,yeah. Because that's like, aside
(24:28):
from the content.
Okay. Yeah. Because I want to Iwant to say something about
that, too, because I think it'san important point that you make
with me pretty often, in that,that the activation part does
not have to be negative, andthat's part of our fire too. So
when we see something on socialmedia, and we're scanning and
(24:49):
looking at like our system isengaged, and if I see something
that could be really positive,right is that that's part of my
life. I want to like engage withthat. I want to do something
with that. It's inspiring methat it doesn't have to
Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's stilllike, it's still inspiring
action. And, and that requiresactivation in your system to
(25:14):
take action. Right? So, yeah,I'm also saying that just the
logistics of like, needing tolook around, right is is
encouraging this vigilance oflike, Did I see all the right
people stuff that kind of setsyou up for then when there's
content that's also activating,you're just you're already on
(25:36):
the ladder, you're already likeclimbed way up there.
And so someone had these reallygreat memes the other day, and
they were using neurodiverseincorrectly. And I really wanted
to use them. And I was like,these are really great names.
But it really annoyed me that Icould not use them.
We'll see. And then this is whythere's internet trolls, because
(25:58):
they're on there. They're allthey're seeing all this stuff.
And they can't not saysomething, they can't not snap
back and make a comment. Andit's just like the worst part of
humanity in the comment section.
But yeah, so here's here's oneillustration that that machine
also shared with us that she gotfrom Kathy Kane about what
freeze looks like. So if youimagine, and I may have told you
(26:21):
this before, but just pretendlike I have it. So if you
imagine like a water well, inthe ground, like a brick wall,
and someone falling into it. Soit can be any kind of hole. But
it's got it's got formed sides,it has strong sides, right?
There's cement or their brick,and they're falling down. And
(26:42):
they catch themselves with theirhands and feet on the walls on
the sides of this thing so thatthey don't fall all the way to
the bottom and get really hurt.
So they're holding themselvessteady on the sides. And they
are like if I even think I mightfall, Liddell and move a single
cell in my body, right? That'sfreeze. So when you have someone
(27:05):
or you yourself are experiencingfreeze, and someone comes along
and says like, all you gotta do,oh, just get Have you thought
of, have you gotten want to, oh,I'm gonna send you a link. Or
like, Hey, let me help you. Whatcan I do to help this happens
with people all the time? Whatcan I do to help I want to help
you. It's like, I can't answerthat I'm trying to stay alive. I
(27:28):
need to hold really tight, sothat I don't fall. So then we
get relational conflict cominginto the picture, because
they've got someone who caresabout them saying, I want to
help, what do you need, and theycan't vocalize it for maybe a
number of reasons. But one ofthem could be that their system
is in this state of preservationand stillness. And so looking
(27:52):
for signs of, of connection,rather than, Oh, they're not
answering me or they don't havemuch to say, or they never know
how they feel. And they neverknow what they need. Right. It's
like, maybe just starting with asimple like, we talked in the
last thing about the theappreciation practice, but it
(28:13):
doesn't have to be that butlike, gratitude does turn on
your relational channels in yourbrain. So even if you can
internally for yourself, and Ithis gonna sound kind of
gimmicky, but whatever, y'all,it's science in our works. But
if you can, you know, think ofsomething that you're grateful
for, if you can get into arelational headspace and you can
(28:33):
invite that person into that,you might see some of that
freeze, thaw a little bit, youmight be able to connect a
little bit. movement also doestend to move people out of
freeze. And one thing that AnnaLopez said, when we talked about
this on a podcast once, and shewas saying that sometimes if she
(28:56):
is struggling with Freeze, likewith getting out of bed in the
morning, she will envisionherself doing like a certain
yoga pose. Like she'll envisionsome kind of movement. And like
she's doing it and then it helpsher nervous system to kind of
shift and she's able, she's nextthing she knows she's out of
bed, doing the next thing sheneeds to do. So I think
(29:18):
sometimes like working with theimagination, and some of the
creative ways in which we cancommunicate with our bodies
without words can be reallyhelpful. If you're feeling like
maybe you are in a little bit ofa sad because you've said we've
talked about anchors before andthat makes perfect sense if that
we can show if we can show ourbodies that were safer. Right?
(29:41):
Just a little more ease, right?
Because we can't so expect likesomeone just to jump on the well
and all of a sudden be likeboom, I'm ready to go. Yeah. But
like to where they can move backup to fight to crawl up a little
bit or to grab your hands. Isthat what you're saying? Nothing
more. Yeah, it's like whenyou're immobilized. When, and I
(30:08):
keep talking about somaticexperiencing, sorry, it's just
gonna happen. But one of thethings that Peter Levine talks
about is that the freezeresponse and fear get bundled
together. And so when we startto feel immobilized when we
start to feel, feel thestillness of freeze, the
(30:30):
stuckness of freeze, for some ofus, that feels scary, and it
makes us think that we arescared. And so we're not always
scared, but but our system isresponding in this self
preservation way that I thinkcan lead to some confusion. So I
think when you think about ananimal in the wild, who is
(30:54):
playing dead and waiting for thepredator to run off, and then
they slowly kind of, it lookslike come back to life, you can
Google this, it's wild. Youknow, what we see is that
there's this ability to holdthat free state for a period of
time, and then that immobilityhas to be kind of worked out and
(31:20):
shaken off, or whatever youwould see an animal do. And
that's where I think we don'tget a chance to do that full
process, because our lives areso stressful. So we just kind of
like constantly circle, thissame loop where we go, right, we
just get enough collapse, right,I get a nine minute nap. To get
me back into the game, rightback into activation, I'm still
(31:43):
not that far away from freezeagain. I've like just barely
given myself a little bit ofcollapse, so I can get back into
it.
I hear that in clients whereit's like, despair, like, I've
just why even bother. And thenlife, you got to get up, go to
work, you have to do differentthings. And then all of a
(32:04):
sudden, it seems like they're inbeing able to like do a thing.
And like, you know, connected alittle bit. And then they're
fighting a bear on the street ordoing that. And then they're
right back there a few dayslater. Yes. Right. They're just
right back there a few dayslater. So what you're saying is
that, that process of reallylike, rebuilding and kind of
(32:30):
getting up out of that reallyexhaustive state. While we're
incredible, aren't we? Oh, weare I know, it's like,
seriously? Yeah. Takingadvantage of our nervous systems
right now. And we need to liketo figure out how to do this for
ourselves. Right, like, but it'sso hard because our systems are
(32:51):
set up. Like, who had like yousaid, with privilege or who has
time?
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it'sit is always
take a lot of time, like, like,I guess I'm curious about that.
I guess it just depends, right?
It does. Yeah, it just depends.
But I think too, it's, you know,this is why I love the nap
ministry and her work. And ofcourse, I'm like totally spacing
(33:15):
on her name because I'mterrible. Is Tricia Hersey. Yes,
for sure her see the napministry just talking about rest
as a radical practice. And thething about an activated nervous
system that has been activatedfor a very long time, which is a
(33:35):
lot of us is that sometimes realrest feels scary. And it's not
something we can just like forceourselves into, it's like very
tiny bits of it, building acapacity for it over time, so
that the nervous system startsto learn, Hey, it's okay if we
(33:57):
slow down and don't likeoverfill our schedule. Because
rust isnot just about sleep it it's
about like play Joy connection,things that like if we are in
like a grind culture and theproductivity culture and we are
go go go it's one thing forsomeone to say oh, you know
(34:18):
what, I'm going to get extra naptoday like trying to titrate
that rest in but rest therelooks a lot of different ways.
We're very you know, complexpeople, you know, humans and so
active, you know, actuallyparticipating in little joyful
moments or small luxuries thatextra can be scarier, and more
uncomfortable than say, I'mgonna take the weekend. I'm not
(34:42):
going to go out this week andI'm just going to chill and
you're like, why am I stilltired? Yeah,
yeah. Are you spend the wholeweekend dissociating, you know,
watching lots of television butnot really watching it. You
know, when I lived alone, wayback In the day, like, I spent a
lot of my free time, just likekind of killing time, like just
(35:07):
getting it to get by withoutrealizing that that's what I was
doing. And feeling like, well, Ineed this, I deserve this. I've
been working so hard all week,I've been so busy lately. But
then I wasn't actually feelingrefreshed. I wasn't feeling like
I was getting out of it whatother people were talking about
(35:28):
that they would get out of, youknow, downtime, you on
that call the example youbrought up earlier, you're going
into that nap would not havefixed the problem. It was
because you engaged with thatperson. That you know, that's
not always the case. But I'mtalking for this specific
scenario, when you said you cameout of the night, wow, I felt
really good after talking.
(35:50):
Some of it is because it was apositive conversation, where I
was able to discharge some ofthe activation. Because I was
using my voice. We were veryexcited. We were sharing ideas.
It was like very invigorating.
And I think some of that stressenergy that had been built up
released in the conversation.
But I think actually that thatnet with that little nap did
(36:13):
that little tiny rest. I thinkit actually just gave my body
what it wanted. It was like I'mtoo activated, I need to shut
down. And this has happened mywhole life. And I have all these
curiosities aroundneurodivergent, especially ADHD,
folks who get diagnoses ofnarcolepsy. Because when we're
(36:35):
bored, we can tend to feel supersleepy. And so I have all these
like curiosities around thisbecause my whole life, if I go
to a professional conference, Inow know I have to book a room
in the hotel where the event isbecause I am going to have to go
and lay down. Otherwise I havein I have risked falling asleep
(36:56):
in public, which is like myworst nightmare. I'm so scared
of doing that. So I won't dothat. I'll fidget. I'll do all
kinds of things. I'll stand atthe back of the room, I'll sit
at the back of the room. But Ihave this fear about falling
asleep in important places likewhile driving the car. And like,
Could I go convince somebodythat I have narcolepsy? I don't
probably not. I don't actuallyknow what the criteria is. But I
(37:19):
think about my system and how itresponds to over activation was
sleepiness and how it respondsto boredom with sleepiness, like
I have this propensity to get toa place where I just feel like I
must be really actuallyphysically tired and need to
rest. So I do think that thatnap. I do think it gave my body
(37:44):
a little of what it needed andwanted in that moment, and it
gave me a little bit of capacityto accept the phone call when I
got it. And then I think havingthe conversation energize me
because I'm an extrovert. Andbecause of all of the things I
said before about just thephysicality of conversation for
me, especially as I'm a veryphysical person, when I'm
(38:05):
talking my arms move, and myvoice fluctuates and all that.
But having conversations is alsoa stressor, right? It's also a
certain activation and astressor. So that's why I'm
saying like, there's this loopthat we get kind of stuck in
around activation and moreactivation and a little less
(38:27):
activation and more activation,but not often getting to that
place of what's my baseline.
What does it look like? Do Ieven know what it feels like in
my body to feel rested? Well,I know taking like the year off
after teaching and reallylearning how to play and
experience joy and in breastthere was a lot of crying. There
(38:50):
was a lot of uncomfortablenessyou think like oh, you what's
your problem? You got this timeoff and I was like, Ooh,
gnashing of teeth. Like it wasit was such a process. And now I
feel broken. Because my systemwill only let me get to Sir, I
was so hyper vigilant. I was amachine when I was a teacher.
(39:14):
You know, I mean, like being amom of three and like, just like
take care of myself do I meantake care of myself when I say
that? I mean like exercisingwhen I'm actually taking care of
myself. Um, but like Yeah, Ithink that's been my question.
This year is broken and brokenin like the the eyes of society
(39:39):
in the systems like, can I everengage in hostile culture again,
to the point where I canactually get the things that I
want to get because like, bysystem because I'm
neurodivergent and midlife Can Igather, Gather ye resources I'm
like, do the thing now? BecauseI've actually learned how to do
(40:02):
that. Does that make sense toyou? Yes. Yeah. Because I feel
like when I think about that,that woman who taught me in that
space, yeah, it broke me to thepoint where like, I had to,
like, I collapse my bodycollapse. I had to like, this
was not like, just this waslike, I was having panic
attacks, I mean, all kinds ofstuff. And there was it was
(40:26):
nuanced, it was layered, but atthe same time, taking that time
off, now that I need to, like,get into my fire, it's a little
trickier. It's a little it's notas revved up. It's not as Yeah,
it's, it's like feels so vanillacompared to what we used to be
(40:49):
able to do. Ithink you're asking, like, is
this life or is this freeze,because it's like, when I when I
think about being freeze, Ithink like my window of
tolerance, which we're not gonnaget into today. We've talked
about, we'll talk about itanother time, because it's
getting late. But it's so muchmy capacity is so much bigger.
So my gut says, I am not infreeze, my gut says, I might
(41:13):
have moments or like, I mighthave like periods, of course,
because I have stressors. Butlike, I'm doing things to, like,
move in and out of thesedifferent states. I have a lot
of support in different ways todo those things. And guys still
dissociate. I still don't soit's not about like this. I'm
(41:35):
like, I'm accessing my fullhumanity. Okay. Well, yeah,
I mean, a healthy nervous systemis one that can access all the
states when they're needed.
Right. And so I'm thinking it'sjust vanilla. I think I'm much
less we want you to come tothis. sighs we're not
advertising, butI think a little bit of what
you're describing, I think islike your trauma. I think it's
(41:55):
like, you know, someone withtrauma gets through can get to a
place of healing and healingfeels so disorient disorienting
feel so unfamiliar. It's like,what you're describing exactly
that like, okay, but can I readanymore? Well, yeah, but like,
(42:15):
you were so highly revved like,that was not good for your body,
that was not good for you. Thatis what leads to chronic
illness. That's what leads todisease, quite literally in the
body. So I think it's a realshift in perspective. And in
goals, really, in expectations.
(42:38):
When I have a client come andsay, I just really got to figure
out how to get back to a placewhere I can XYZ, and they are a
person with ovaries in their40s. I'm like up, okay, here we
go. We got some work to do.
Because it's not about gettingback to that place. It's about
renegotiating the relationshipwith your body, with the systems
(42:59):
around you, the people aroundyou with yourself. And my
reading now looks like I canactually show up to that social
thing I want to go to that Isaid I was gonna go to, because
I have time and capacity for it.
It doesn't look like Oh, I didfive social things. And I
volunteered for this and I amworking, you know this much. And
(43:22):
I right like I'm, I'm not overfunctioning anymore. And that
for me with my history feelslike under functioning.
Yeah, I think we're in the samespot. I think that's the bottom
line of this conversation islike we're functioning. We are
function. We're like reach we'refinding our bait our new
baseline. Yeah,we're Yeah, I mean, that's true.
And it's it's strange. Itis strange, but it's so good.
(43:46):
And I had a conversation withCory just the other day where he
was really appreciating in ourappreciation practice. He was
which we're still doing, y'all.
We're still doing it. It's beenweeks. And it is like some kind
of magic because it is reallyshifting some things for me
internally, if you don't knowI'm talking about listen to the
(44:08):
last episode, because I'm notgonna explain it again. But he
was appreciating that I have areal sense of my capacity. And
that I know when I need to sayno, and I know when I when my
yes is a yes. And it made mecry. It was like to have him see
that in me when I don't evenknow if I've really identified
(44:29):
that for myself. Until thispoint, you know that this like,
yeah, I I do have a sense of mylimits. And that was definitely
not true a year ago was anbeyond word.
Yes, for sure. I see that I needto and I would say true. Not a
year ago or so. Andit's so much better, y'all. It's
so much better. So come over tothe other side. Yeah. Okay.
(44:51):
We're gonna go I know I'm sorry.
This is I was gonna know, thisisn't worried about
This and it is so relevant witheverything. Listen, I want to
say this too, because we'rewrapping up the year. I mean,
we're not wrapping that we willprobably have on the podcast by
the end of in December but 2023If you're if you if no one has
(45:16):
said this to you was not good.
Even if you think it was good.
Listen, I had I had joy thisyear, I had some really cool
things happen, like really mindblowing cool things. But they
were few and far between. Mostof it was full time doing the
(45:37):
work to, to kind of reallyaccess that full humanity that
we were talking about. It was alot of work to be at baseline
this year. Yeah. And so ifyou're feeling like, feeling it,
just whatever we're with you wasa lot. And, you know, I'm not
(46:01):
gonna think about 2024 yet. I'mjust gonna, like, say that right
here right now. Like we're withyou in that. And
yeah, I feel like, I have thispicture in my head of being like
little and on a grassy hill andin, you know, laying like a
burrito and having someone pushyou down in it. It's not that
(46:21):
fun in my imagination, butthat's how I'm going into 2024.
So it's about right. I'm beingkind of pushed into it. And I'm
just like, whatever. Let's justrolling. Let's see if we can
make it fun on the way in.
Yeah, I'm glad we have eachother. Me too.
I love you. Love you too. Allright, well, I guess that's how
(46:44):
we end a lot of conversation.
That's actually very fitting forthe sleepy sisters.
That's how we should sign upevery sign up. I gotta go to
bed. All right, I'll see youlater. Bye.
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