January 15, 2024 • 48 mins
Do you feel worried or upset when you have a difference of opinion about just about anything with someone you care about? This episode is for you.
Sleepy Sisters podcast is hosted by Elizabeth Brink and Sarah Durham. This show is unedited and often unprepared for, so we hope you enjoy our resistance to perfection!
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Okay. Hello, I for the sleepy sisters.
(00:09):
I'm Elizabeth bring SarahDurham. And we're tired, y'all.
This weather is not making anyeasier.
Now, I don't know. Yeah. Ifyou're listening to this in
winter months. Maybe you'refeeling cold where you live, but
it is frigid.
(00:30):
I also think I say that insummer, too. When it's hot. I'm
like, yeah, it doesn't matter.
It has just been an optimaltemperature for me not to
comment. Not to be sleeping.
Oh, my gosh, we're living in thewrong part of the world. That's
the problem. We wouldn't be sosleepy if we just lived
(00:50):
somewhere where there wasoptimal temperature at all
times. Yeah, we're that is? God.
I know. I don't even think thatexists anywhere at this point.
Okay, so we're gonna talk aboutfawning again, we're going to
we're going to talk aboutfawning, and kind of explore it
beyond in our last explorationabout it, it was a lot around
(01:13):
the holidays and end of yearkind of expectations. And one
thing so and I kept thinkingabout this after so one thing I
wanted to say is that fawningis, I believe, a blended state
in the nervous system, which wementioned last time, but I think
I said it like it was only oneversion of a blended state. And
(01:35):
I'd like to rephrase that. Andsay that, what we know is that
in order to connect sociallywith other people, we use our
like social connection state inour nervous system, which, like,
in polyvagal theory would beventral vagal. And so we know
(01:55):
that state in the nervous systemis involved with fawning. But I,
I think I said last time that itwas a mix between that and
freeze. And I think that is onepresentation of it. But the more
I started thinking about it, Iwas like, you know, I think I
could see a case for a blendedstate, excuse me have that
(02:19):
social connection network and afight response. And in fact, I
think for me, that might be moreof what comes up when I'm in
that state of fawning and thatit's almost like, I don't know
what to do. I don't know how toget out of this. But I'm just
(02:41):
gonna, like, keep talking untilI can safely back away it's
like, and I do think sometimes,I noticed like activation in me.
Like, my heart rate will go upand my voice will start to shake
a little bit. And I don't feelvery Freezy I feel more like I'm
having a little bit of like afight response. And I'm trying
(03:04):
to engage socially. And I'm kindof trying to Swart that feeling
of like, Oh, I really want totell this person what for I
really want to correct them or Ireally want to clarify something
they're saying and it can feellike I'm actually thwarting a
fight response, not like I'mbattling. Oh, I'm Freezy. And
I'm kind of dissociating and I'mjust talking. And people feel
(03:29):
like I'm engaging but I'm reallykind of disengaged in this
conversation. I think sometimesI'm like, overly engaged. And
I'm trying to like people pleaseat the same time, and it can
feel more like this blue kind offight and social engagement. So
that makes sense.
(03:52):
I can totally picture thisscenario. I can just picture you
right now in the stateyou know, it's like you know
what I look like when the sunexactly what you look like it's
like you were making plans aboutsomething and you're you are
doing that face and doing likewell I mean, just think that you
know, and then you know you'llsee if we could do whatever you
(04:14):
want but then you're not reallythere anymore. And I can I know
the look on your face and you'rekind of being appeasing but
you're not really it's one of myI would say probably I'm most
uncomfortable around you whenyou're like this because I don't
(04:34):
really know what the truth is.
About Yeah, and you can liketell I don't either true. Or
maybe I mean I do sometimes Ithink I do know, and I'm having
like an internal battle aroundam I allowed and I had these or
(04:59):
how flexible you We're failingbecause, yeah, sometimes I think
it's hard because you've done somuch work to where we both have
an initial what we want, yes orno. And sometimes it gets
confusing about, I need to sortthis out. And I don't know if
this is me being inflexibleright now, or if this is a
(05:22):
legitimate other option, and Ijust need my system to kind of,
so this talking has happeningwith you, while you're kind of
sorting that out. So you weren'ttechnically there. But you don't
want to totally retreat. I mean,I'm putting this on here. But
this is kind of what I see. Andcan can relate to. And you want
(05:44):
to keep that connection going?
And I don't know if it's becauseyou feel like if you don't keep
the connection going, likeyou're not allowed to do that,
to sort of Yeah,I mean, I think that is exactly,
I mean, that's my trauma, right?
Like, if you think back, youknow, to me as a small child,
trying to make sure that mom isokay, trying to make sure that
(06:08):
she's like that she's connectedto me that she's in the room
that she's with me when she'sgoing through a hard thing, and
is not totally in the room, andunderstandably so now as an
adult. And at the same time, mylittle nervous system is
figuring out, you know, oh,okay, in order to keep the
(06:31):
connection and keep you here,there are certain patterns of
familiarity that need to be likeat play. And, and I think I just
learned at a really young age,to be studying very closely the
nervous system and theexpressions of the other person,
I mean, gauging with and forthat, to then dictate what comes
(06:54):
out of my mouth or what mythoughts or opinions are. And so
when we add a baseline talkabout like setting boundaries,
which is essentially a big partof what this is, like, can I
like something different thanyou want something different
from you and the connection toyou stay intact?
So do you think that you'redoing this in real time? So you
(07:15):
are talking, and you are puttingthings out there? I mean,
imagine you as when you'reyounger. And as the words are
coming out of your mouth, youare watching micro expressions,
and you are pivoting and movingand kind of like a video game.
might try to match how you'rebeing received. Yes. Oh, crap.
(07:38):
That sounds exhausting. Oh, thatis
the form of fawning for me. And,yes, this is why I'm so freakin
tired. You know that, like, ittakes so much work because I'm
trying to appease the otherpeople involved. While at the
same time I'm having thisinternal, you know, battle with
(07:59):
like, maybe a fight response,maybe I don't want to appease
this person, maybe I'm mad,maybe I'm feeling put upon,
there's all kinds of things Icould be feeling. And I'm, I'm
kind of, I'm directing thatfight response energy toward
myself. And I'm using it inorder to keep any of that stuff
(08:22):
from coming out of my mouth. Andusing it from you know, in that
little girl mind from damagingthe connection. And the thing
is, like, there is some of that.
I mean, I studied communicationsin college, right? And like, a
lot of people did that. In orderto get through college. I did it
because I actually really lovecommunications. And I love
(08:43):
studying people and why peopledo and say the things they do.
And I think this part of me waslike, Okay, here's how to
perform, you know, connection,here's how to perform that like
we're a Okay, and so I can sensewhen someone's not okay, I will
(09:03):
initially take it personallylike oh, I've done something
I've said something it'spossible maybe I should put it
out there and check and makesure it's not my fault that they
have this certain, you know,look or aspect and and then if
there is any space there forlike, what do you think what do
(09:24):
you want? It either comes out inlike, what I will call over
energized responses. Or it comesout in this like very, like
you're saying this very likekind of constipated response of
like, Oh, I think I have somethoughts and feelings but I'm
(09:44):
not sure if it's okay for me tojust like, say what I mean and
mean what I say so I do thisweird dance that like if you
know me, well. You do know whatI look like when I'm doing this
and It's exhausting. It makes mewant to avoid decisions even
though I consider myself areally decisive person.
(10:06):
This makes perfect sense when Ithink about our, our dynamic,
because not necessarily I thinkthat we've grown in this area,
but I'm thinking about, like,all the years prior, and why it
frustrates me because my effectis, you know, complicated,
right? Like my of the looks onmy face and you trying to read
(10:30):
and me being an important persontoo. And
let's just say your face looksuninterested, frustrated, over
it. A lot of like, your defaultjust kind of looks over it. It
does. I'mthe Ben Affleck of our family.
Like, it's a really,it definitely affects my day.
Like, when Ithink about, and I have, yeah,
(10:54):
but when I think about that, itmakes sense why? I don't know, I
will take the time to make adecision. Like, I don't know, I
can't think about this rightnow. I gotta like, whatever, and
why you would always try torush. And then you would throw
like 100 options at me, whichwould flood me even more. And
(11:16):
I'll get first of all, I justneed a minute. I can't make this
decision right now. And you justbe like, Well, okay, we could do
this, we could do that. We'regonna do that. And like thinking
like that, that was control in away that was like, it wasn't
really about controlling me itwas more about like,
controlling, like, your safety.
(11:37):
And that like, Okay, I need youto make a decision. So I can
match that. And you're pissingme off because you're like, not
able, because I was more able tosay no. Well,
that and because you'rerequiring me to sit in the
mystery. Yeah. And you're oryou're requiring me to slow down
(11:58):
and my nervous system doesn'tlike slowing down. Not
No, but not right now. Like, Ican't make the decision right.
Now I'm going to go into my casewhere I'm gonna go, and not
actually asking for any moreoptions, like I just would be at
like, decision overload orwhatever it was I just who even
knows with me, right? But then Ialso had the face. And yeah, I
(12:22):
could see how that could bereally uncomfortable for you.
I mean, I will say that, like,as we're talking about this, I'm
having this thought and I justfeel like a lot of my, my like,
activation, I often feel, let meI feel like one of the hardest
(12:47):
things for me to hear fromanother person is, I can't
really talk about this rightnow. I can't decide about this
right now. And it is gettingeasier for me to hear that. And
it's getting easier for me to beable to say that for myself.
Because it is true, a lot of thetime that like I can't make a
(13:08):
decision right now. And mynervous system is so revved up
that it is like just rip theband aid off and do it already.
And learning to like, notinterpret that as a
disconnection from therelationship. That's been a part
of my own internal work is likenot taking that personally, and
(13:29):
celebrating it and other people,which I feel like I've been able
to do pretty consistently withmy clients. And so it's almost
like it's given me good practicethat, like the stakes aren't as
high. And in my relationships,like Cory will say that a lot.
Like I'm at my limit. I don'tthink I can discuss this
anymore, or I don't think Idon't think I can decide that
(13:50):
right now. And I find that whenI say that when I have that
limit, I it comes out activated.
It doesn't come out, likecentered and like, Hey, I'm
noticing a limit that I'm havingright now. And I need to come
back to this later, it comes outlike I can't do this right now.
I've had enough I reached mylimit it like comes out
(14:10):
activated, which then sometimescreates conflict. But it's like,
at least creates conflictinternally. Because then I'll
feel like oh great. Now I'vejust like lit up an argument.
And that fawning peace you knowthat wanting things to be right
in Okay, at all times. Starts tolike that little gremlin starts
to be like, oh forceful.
(14:34):
When I think about if my God, ifyou're, what you're asking for
or decision needs to be madearound an event or something.
And there's more than one persontied to it. Like, let's say you
want to do like a sister'sweekend or whatever. And so like
Cory is tied into it. Me thatguy, you know, and so it's like
a death of me. I mean, I canimagine. Like I not only it's
(14:58):
like I'm asking you for a thingfor For myself, that is pure
delight, it's not a necessity,it's not tied to work. It's the
opposite. I'm gonna like take upspace in a in, in getting into
like something that's reallyjust to make me happy, which oh
my gosh, that's a thing. Andthen you have to coordinate that
(15:18):
with Corey. And then you'reasking, Can we do this and I
would imagine, like, when youcome to visit, like all of the
things with your kids and all ofthat, and I know because I, I
feel something similar. Butwe're talking about you, and I'm
thinking about how big of a dealthis is for you. And just that
I'm just picturing like, justthis, like, you know, spiderweb
(15:40):
of just,I mean, these these few times
that we've gotten all five ofthe siblings together with dad,
and like all of our kids. Sowe've done that. I don't even
know maybe three times in thelast handful of years. One of
them was in November for yourbirthday. There. You're right,
like I'm having like tinglyfeelings in my body right now,
like getting the chills, becauseit's so satisfying. To get to
(16:01):
the point where it's like, oh,my gosh, it's gonna work for
everyone. And they're allexcited. And it feels so good.
And that leading up to it. Yeah,if there's any resistance from
anyone, it can really I can bein a very, like vulnerable place
around. Okay, it's gonna beokay. Don't take it personally,
(16:23):
people are allowed to haveconflicts, they're allowed to
not want conflicts with theirschedules, they're allowed to,
like not want to do the thing.
And, and wanting to, like, meetthe needs of every single
individual who might beinvolved, during
all that negotiating easier thislast time, because I know, then
(16:44):
you come into that space. And Iknow, part of you feels
responsible for the vibe in theroom, and that everyone is, you
know, whatever. But did it makeit easier that the main focus
was my birthday? And not justall of us together? Or did that
make it more complicated, orjust the same? I'm just curious,
(17:06):
I think that madeit more laborious, because then
I was like, oh, and I want tomake it special birthday. So it
just added an extra layer oflike actual labor to the whole
thing. Whereas when we went toNew Mexico together, it felt a
little easier to divide andconquer, though we did do some
of that divide and conquer forthis in terms of meal planning
(17:27):
and stuff. But yeah, I mean, Ijust think about like, the
intricacies of how this shows upfor me, and that, because this
happens to me relationally withpeople, I think I have spent,
you know, most of my life notreally knowing moment to moment,
(17:47):
what I feel like doing or don'tfeel like doing. And that like
that is kind of the crux of thefawning for me is that I'm just
I'm not going with the flow. Solet's not confuse things like
that, it doesn't look like goingwith the flow. If you know me,
you're like, This is not aperson who goes with the flow.
It's a person who manages to gowith the flow, or like forces
(18:13):
themselves to go with the flow.
And sometimes there's a littlefallout from that. And the
fallout is usually internal forme at a minimum, where I will
feel totally wiped out or justlike really frustrated. And I
will feel like there is arelational rift between me and
(18:34):
someone because of how much workI've had to do to thwart my
internal responses to you know,protecting me and to choosing me
and what I want. And this is areally difficult dynamic for me.
And there's this example thatjust happened. I guess we're
(18:55):
just going to make this aboutme, but I want to hear what what
pieces this brings up for you.
But not yet. There's this so,um, so I have this is like a
real life example. It'shappening right now I've decided
to get a tattoo. And I'm excitedabout it. I'm nervous. But I'm
(19:15):
excited about it. And Cory isnot that into it. He's not like
opposed to it. He's just like,mad or whatever. Right? And so
you can imagine how that feelsto me because when I was
younger, and Sara and I would gowith our moms like Walmart or
Target, I would like hold up ashirt and be like, for her and
(19:37):
be like, what about this one?
And she'd be like, Oh, it'scute. And it was like if it
wasn't like that is the cutestthing ever. I felt like rejected
like she had someonebuy something that you have
suggested. It's like the heavenshave opened up and you're like,
Yes, I'm saying I'd sayyou love it. Yes you do. And So
(19:57):
I have a really hard time whenpeople have a difference of
opinion. And I think I've justonly recently realized that
that's a boundary thing. Andthat there's this challenge for
my nervous system of, oh, no,that's dangerous. If you have a
difference of opinion, thenmaybe the relationship and the
connection is at risk. And so itcan be over like really silly
(20:22):
things. Like, you know, do youlike this? Do you like this
thing I made that you're eatingright now or whatever. Or it can
be like, I'm about to put thispermanent art on my body. And
you know, I want him to be like,you and Becca have been, which
is like, this is so fun. It's soexciting. Oh, that looks so cool
with like, my little inspirationpictures. And like, y'all are
(20:43):
doing the thing, because youknow, that you need to do that
thing for me. Like, this is sogreat. And I actually am like, I
need that so much that I don'tcare. Even though I think I do
believe it's genuine. I'mchoosing to believe. And so
anyway, then, on the flip sideof this, there was this thing
(21:07):
that Corey wanted to buy thatcost a lot of money, and in my
mind is frivolous, and maybeborderline absurd, but like,
bring Him joy. And it's justlike a game thing. It's like,
anyway. But it was a lot ofmoney and as is a tattoo and so
he mentioned it to me, it'ssomething that his brother has.
(21:31):
So when we were there, over theholidays, he like got really
excited about it. And I was justlike, this is okay. And he
mentioned it, he didn't reallyask like, Hey, can we get this?
We go back and forth aroundspending and how we kind of
talked about spending. But I waskind of like, gosh, that's a lot
(21:51):
of money. I don't know. And Ifelt kind of hesitant about it.
Anyway, he ordered it. And thenhe's like, Oh, it's arriving,
right? And I'm like you got youordered it. And okay, so then he
arrives. And over the course ofa couple of days, it just
arrived on Friday. So it's likesuper fresh. So over the course
of a couple days before itarrived or whatever. I also on
(22:13):
Thursday had my console for mytattoo. And we had this
interaction where like, thesetwo things are kind of happening
at the same time. And I'm justnoticing how different his whole
process is around doing a thingthat I'm like, not that
approving of I wasn'tdisapproving. I just was kind of
(22:35):
like, willing to do a lot ofmoney. So maybe I was a little
disapproving. And how physicallyuncomfortable I am with him not
being able to like, give me afull bodied affirmed like, This
is so great. You're tattooingyour arm. And I felt a little
locked up. And we were like inthe kitchen and he could tell
(23:00):
and he was like, Are you mad atme? And I was just sitting there
kind of reeling like what ishappening? What's happening in
my body? What am I feeling? AndI got a little emotional because
I was just like, this is on me.
This is my work. This is mystuff. I need to be okay with
you not being fully on boardwith me doing this thing. And
(23:22):
that not stealing some of my joyfrom doing it. Yeah. And I need
to be okay with doing it anyway,and and not feeling torn about
it. Because that's what it did.
It initially made me feel evenmore unsure. Like maybe I
shouldn't do this.
Yeah, I know this feeling well.
And that is not what he wassaying. He wasn't saying I don't
(23:43):
think you should do this. He'sjust saying tattoos aren't for
me. The same thing I'm feelingabout this game thing, which so
it because they're happening atthe same time, I'm like, so
envious, that he can just likedo this thing and not worry
about the connection between thetwo of us if he does this thing
that I met about, right? It'snot even like there's real
(24:04):
conflict. And I'm like, No, thisis not okay. I do not want this
in the house. Yeah, right. Likethat's different. That's not
what I'm talking about. It'slike this is so nuanced. And
it's like there's not conflicthere. But my system is reading
it like it's conflict anddangerous.
How dare you be so nonchalantabout your purchase and be all
(24:26):
experiencing joy?
And like, why can't I have thatyou know, and just that that
like feeling? I mean, I went tobed on Friday feeling like a
little sad. And a little like,reconnected to me like sad maybe
in a good way just like oh, wow,okay, this is totally about me.
(24:48):
And I do I want to talk to do Ilike the idea I have for like
kind of trying to reconnectmyself to what I was already
deciding And feeling like, I'mdoing this thing for me because
I like it. It has nothing to dowith my relationship to anyone
(25:08):
else. And gosh, I really wishthat were easier for me to do
that I feel exactly the same wayand so much so that I very
rarely will ask somebody, whattheir opinion is about something
like that, because of thoseboundaries, or my emotions, I
know how sensitive I am. And ifI even on microexpression, if
(25:32):
it's something where I'm like, Ireally want this and I can't
make room for someone not beingjust over the moon for me or
whatever. I will just keep it tomyself. And it's unfortunate
because like it, you know, itkind of takes away from like
(25:54):
your experience when you can'tlike, share with other people
like something fun or excitingor whatever. I can't remember I
don't have an example of thelast time I did this. I do know
Joshua is very much the sameway. And I will watch him like
I'm watching an animal at thezoo experience some of these
(26:14):
things like when the way that hecuz he's built different, like
different he's got he doesn'tworry as much he doesn't have is
he bought if you want somethingfor himself, like, you know,
kill, he'll do it. And I watchedlike that him in that sometimes
where I'm just like, likewatching an animal at the zoo or
(26:36):
in the wild, like what ishappening over there. Like,
you're totally like, intowhatever it is you're doing.
We're in areas where I struggle,you know, so did you ate, were
you able to go back and connectand be like, Yeah, I do want
that tattoo, or did you decide?
No, I don't really want it.
Yeah, I'm getting it. But what'sinteresting is, as you're saying
(26:57):
that I'm realizing like, so thisthing arrived on Friday that
Corey ordered. And he's beensuper into it and excited, like
had a friend over to show it tothem. And really, really wants
me to play it. And it's like, Ifeel like I'm not trying to be
(27:18):
like evasive. It's just it's apinball machine. But it's like a
digital pinball machine. And soyou can like play different, but
they call tables apparently.
Anyway. I love pinball. Oh,okay. Well, next time you visit,
I'll be so excited for you toenjoy it. But anyway, because I
was like, what? I also kind ofhate pinball because, like
(27:39):
growing up, I feel like heplayed pinball. And it feels so
pointless and so frustrating.
Like, I could never, I justdidn't have the patience. I
don't know something. So anyway,he's like, really wants me to
play it. He's like, do you wantto play? Do you want to play
like, every time I walked by, Iset up a puzzle near him. So I
(28:00):
could like, be by him. Butanyway, I feel like I'm
bordering on stealing some ofhis joy over this thing. Because
I'm so like, No, I don't want toplay it. Like I don't actually
really like pinball them. Soagain, like the boundary thing
of like, you're enjoying this somuch and I am not gonna like get
(28:20):
into pinball with you. The kidsare they're totally into it.
That hurt his feelings. Wouldyou think that would he
just looks like a little kid. Igotta tell you, he's so happy
with this thing. And that ismaking me happy seeing him so
happy. So I did play ityesterday. And I was terrible at
it, of course. And he was like,trying to explain me all the
(28:41):
complex dynamics of the boardand like, what you're trying to
accomplish because it isapparently like a skilled thing
with I just, you know, I'vealways felt like it's a thing
where like, this ball justricochets all over and then
you've wasted your quarter.
Brush was bought board gamesbefore? Yeah, he like really
loves war games. And like,there's some that I'm into, but
(29:04):
he'll be all excited and youknow, have one delivered and
it's been a while but and he'slike to play this and I'm like,
that sounds like death to me.
Yeah, the amount of like, rulesand things that you're gonna
have to explain to me, yes, youhave to, like do a practice
round like 30 times just to haveit. Like, because the interest
(29:26):
isn't there. And then like, youknow, the how like, him and Sam
kind of just are able to like,get the rules right away and
play. It's just it's not. Yeah,I hadn't thought about this from
like a neuro divergencestandpoint, but like, totally. I
am not interested in learningthe ins and outs of pinball
(29:53):
and being a pinball mom the insand outs so she just like,
No, I'm telling you, there'sit's all I'll definitely play
with them. Yeah, for sure.
And like, Yeah, I'm not I'm notgeeking out on him, I don't want
to get into it necessarily. AndI feel like it's one of those
things that like thosecomplicated board games, you
can't just like, try it and getinto it once and like, maybe
(30:16):
enjoy it and then move on, hekind of have to like, learn.
There'sno fawning when it comes down on
my mat.
I think that's it too. Like, I'mnot finding but then I'm like,
stuck with all this ickyfeelings.
The internalized experience isdifferent than you I say that,
(30:37):
but I won't do it sometimes. Butthen, like the boundary, the
saying no, but then I am stillleft exhausted, because then I'm
still managing. Having said thatfor myself and knowing that I've
(30:57):
probably disappointed and Idon't think there's any last
exhausting?
No, it's It's exhausting tobecause we also have kids, we
have neighbors, we havesiblings. Like we have all kinds
of other relationships in ourlives where this kind of thing
is happening, you know, wherethere's invitations, and there's
(31:19):
just, you know, people who areinteracting with us in ways that
require us to know if we have ayes or no in us. And do you
remember like doing that? Wheredo you remember, it's like, it
goes in stages this work. But Iremember, there's also that kind
(31:42):
of stage where you start sayingnow but then you tack on like,
Well, how about we do this?
Oh, my gosh, right. You likecreate more work for yourself?
Because now you can come up witha creative alternative. Let's
actually have to have lunch,like in the next two weeks, when
you know, you have no time.
Oh, my gosh, I've been doingthis so much lately. I have my
(32:05):
schedule for January andFebruary are truly overwhelming
me. And they were even like inDecember, I was feeling like, oh
my gosh, what have I done? Andyeah, the people wanting some
time and people I want to spendtime with and feeling like oh my
gosh, I don't have it. And so Ineed to offer an alternative
(32:28):
rather than saying, I mean, I'mavailable in like March or
April. Real bad.
I feel like it's the worst withthe kids with the littles it's,
it's definitely,oh, I'd like to say this to them
to where, you know, they come upand they want to do a certain
thing. And you're thinking Noway. But they want to connect,
(32:48):
so you come up with somethinglater in the day, we'll have to
finish and they remember, theyalways are. And
the mind will say you usepromise your you said we were
going to do that. And I'm justlike, I was
(33:09):
another alternative or it'slike, Well, how about we just do
this?
Why don't you play in thebathtub? And I'll sit there?
What No, no? Yeah, I mean, it'slike, yeah, that's the thing is
like, I mean, it's not like thisis all fawning. And I mean, some
(33:29):
of it is but like, it's alsothat we do care about these
people. And, you know, Coreysjoy, and my kids Joy matters to
me. And I just feel a littlemixed up. And like, I'm not
quite there yet with figuringout what that means and how that
(33:50):
influences my possible you arefrom day to day for your art in
that I think that's the thing,it's this, this kind of
responsibility that we feel tothe people that we care about
that are you know, that we, youknow, have some responsibility
and that and I know, it's verynuanced, I don't want to say,
(34:13):
well, you know, I have noresponsibility towards my
children experiencing joy. But Ithink on a day to day basis,
what they want and what they arewilling to carve and siphoned
from you is for like, at leastone of my kids insatiable,
right. She just wants more thanwhat any human could possibly
(34:39):
give. And so it's like, where doI draw that line? And then like
watching the struggle and thediscomfort and all of that and
not coming alongside, but youit's very tricky, like, well,
how much of this is, you know,is mine and hers then this is
like, yeah, it'sexhausting. It's like, I, I feel
(35:04):
exhausted by this way of beingin relationship to others. Yeah.
And, you know, there is there isa fallout for it. You know,
there is relational burnoutthere is, you know, when, when
COVID started, and we went intolockdown, I felt such relief.
(35:27):
There was no need to do anyhosting, and coordinating. I
only had like, one focus thatwas to like, keep us healthy.
Oh, my gosh, it was yes. It waslike a vacation. No, it was not
(35:47):
really. I mean, it was like,incredibly stressful. And there
was so much going on that year,that overall 2020 was, to some
degree very traumatic for me,but at the same time in this
regard, you know, I think, youknow, toward my kids, this
wasn't like, it was not avacation, because they were very
(36:07):
young. And I was having to dothis so much at home with them.
And with Corey with negotiating.
But she would have been doingthat anyway. I mean, they were
at that age. Yeah. Didn't havethat weekend, you know, pull up
someone having to invitesomebody over being available.
(36:28):
Yeah. And all that. Yeah, Iagree. I mean, that well, that
spare time was just like, Well,what do you want to do with it?
Like, I mean, some of it, notall of it, because I do have
kids. But yeah, there was spacefor me to launch a business
fully into the, you know, world.
And,yeah, and I think, you know, as
(36:49):
far as this goes, there's a lotof blurred lines, I guess,
between Fani, and like, theemotional labor of like, what
goes into like, parenting andbeing a spouse, sibling, I mean,
it was just even thinking about,over the holidays, and just the
anticipatory, like, mental andemotional labor of meeting the
(37:12):
needs and making sure things areequal. And, you know, all the
kids felt seen and heard and allof that, and, you know, I think
I did a pretty good job oftaking care of myself, and it
(37:34):
still took a while to come outof that.
Yeah, I feel like I'm not yetthere. Like, I don't know, I
have more I have figured out howto take care of myself, like, in
a way that feeds like, my needfor learning and curiosity. And,
(38:01):
you know, kind of theintellectual side of me, I've
managed to do that through mywork and like, studying somatic
experiencing, and just doing somuch learning, and finding like,
that is feeding all those partsof me around hobby and interests
and all of that. And I'm gladthat still feeding me because
it's been a few years. So, youknow, it's like, oh, maybe I
(38:24):
have a hobby. It's just my job.
But I, I don't yet know how toreally, like, know, where I
begin and end and other peoplebegin and how to, like, say,
this is what I'm doing with mytime. You know, I'm, it's
(38:45):
getting easier, like, I'mgetting better at it. But I do
feel like it's like adisciplined practice, like,
making plans with someone ordeciding I'm this happened
yesterday where I was like, I'mgonna go lay down, and I went
upstairs and lay down and put myearplugs in and just like, dosed
in and out. And that is like,I'm getting better at that. And
(39:10):
that is like the one thing whereI'm just like, here's the thing
I'm gonna do. And it's during,like off hours where we're both
home, and I'm choosing me. And Ifeel like it's something I want
to get better at. I need to getbetter at it. One
thing I started doing, like Iguess, towards the end of last
(39:33):
year was praying Do Not Disturbon my phone, because I will get
derailed if you know my eldestneeds me or if you guys text
even though I want to beinvolved. It's like, I don't
know from day to day, how much Ican engage and what is going to
derail me from what I need toget done. And if someone I care
(39:53):
about is meeting me or sharingsomething with me, it can be
just the thing that will tellReally pull me away from
whatever responsibilities orthings I have that day. And
especially if I'm writing orcreating it, just you know, and
so that has been a huge help forme. Because if I see it come up,
(40:16):
like on my phone or whatever,even if it's on silent, I can't
help and if someone sayssomething activating, or someone
is in distress, or whatever, orsaying something interesting,
like, here, you guys are like,Oh, this is really interesting
article, and I'm like, Oh, God,here. And now it's like, I know,
I just don't even know what'shappening on that phone. And I
(40:39):
can't put it in another roomnecessarily, because I do have
to check in with someone cuz Igot kids at school and stuff
like that. So that's been a hugething for like, my emotional
boundaries, like during,what do you feel like? Do you
feel like having that tool tosupport your boundaries? Do you
feel like it's making it? Like,is it improving your ability to
(41:02):
like, state and hold a boundaryin relationship to other people,
like, in real time? Does thatmake sense? Like, that's a tool
that you're using? What happensif it goes away? Are you getting
better at the thing?
I do think I am. I think thatwhen I discovered, what was
(41:23):
derailing me, which is myemotions during the day, and
what are the things we're anopportunist, so I don't like
necessarily don't get on socialmedia and look at like things
that are gonna get me you know,whatever. Having the Do Not
Disturb on was kind of like myline in the sand of like, my
work time. Is needs to beprotected, I want it to be
(41:47):
protected. And everyone thinksthat just because I'm working
from home that I'm available allthe damn time. And the thing is,
is like, I know you and Beccaare working from home. And you
guys are similar, like yourespond when you can and when
you but I feel a certain type ofway if I know it's in there. And
(42:07):
so knowing that about myself,yeah, I do think that, you know,
it has made me you know, withlike, Joshua and the kids a lot
more like, this is my work time.
And so yeah, I do think it has,I think it was like the first
step in me kind of saying, thisisn't a free for all. I'm not a
(42:28):
stay at home mom, that happensto be working. I need the
resources and the time to dothis full time job. Just because
I'm actually in the house doesnot mean I'm available. And I
feel like you know, Jake, youknow, my eldest like he far
away, but like kinda, she'sactually never expected much for
(42:51):
me in that way. As far as I, Ithink I felt like I should be
available, like if he would, youknow, so now what I don't know
won't hurt me. I won't check it.
And so I need to check it.
(43:11):
And you're not feeling like apull? I guess I'm saying like,
what if Do Not Disturb no longerexisted on your phone? Do you
feel like it's easier now? Like,has it helped you to resolve or
train yourself to be able tointeract differently with the
discomfort of knowing there'ssomebody there with something
(43:33):
for you, who youdon't have time or space to
interact with right now?
A little bit. Not a ton, but alittle bit? Yeah, I do think
it's helped a little bit. Butthe reason why I have it on my
phone is because I'm not thereyet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But like,
(43:55):
I do think that it's helping meto make peace with that boundary
for myself of like, this isgoing to be in place until I'm
comfortable really assertingmyself in that area. Is if I
really felt nothing emotionally,but I would just have taken it.
I wouldn't even it wouldn'tmatter. Right? Yeah, I do. I
(44:19):
think it's mentally just kind ofbeen a marker for me of like,
this is what we're gonna do. Andthen I'm doing it too when I'm
doing bedtime with the kids. Um,or I'm ready to go to bed. I
mean, it really it's kind of onall the time now. And I know
that like, you guys will justsend your stuff which I want you
(44:42):
to, you know. But yeah, there'sit's, it's helped me kind of
deciding how much I can engagewith or not, because sometimes
I'll want to do two dots on myphone at night for a little
while. And And you and Beccawill be going back and forth
(45:03):
sending messages. And I don'twant to be left out. But I don't
necessarily want to fully engageat that point. Yeah. Depends.
And if I look and I'm like, Oh,they're talking about stuff, and
I want to I will. Yeah.
Yeah. Which I think we're Yeah.
I think the other day, we did myphone. I had 38 text messages
that had come in within like anhour. And I was like, what is
happening? Oh, isyou guys I mean, it's you and
(45:25):
Becca, if I've got 30 or 40messages, it's it's the sisters.
It was the thread with Matt'sbaby, though. So it was the
cousin's baby. So I was like,Oh, this is a fun one. Anyway,
well, we should call it butyeah, it's like, tired. Yeah,
(45:50):
no, it's a good topic. I think,you know, this idea of like
boundaries and fawning and like,where do I begin an end? And
what's okay, how do I say no tothings? If I really can't, it's
just, it's contributing toexhaustion for a lot of people,
especially those of us who arealso caregivers of some kind,
(46:12):
and are working outside of thehome. It's just
what is such a, like? We saidearlier? So much of it, too. Is
this like, internal experiencethat we're like, why am I so
tired? I mean, that was Yeah, Iguess
it doesn't really have anythingto do with like life stage or
what responsibilities you have.
It's like, totally internally.
(46:36):
Are you feeling okay with havinga difference of opinion or
needing things or wantingthings? And are you wearing
yourself out with like, fawning,and then internalizing all the
stress around what you reallyneeded and wanted to
do? Or even getting into thesystems, the oppressive system?
(46:57):
Oh, gosh, no, this is like, justlike interpersonal stuff, right.
And I think that's actuallyreally important to say that,
like,none of this just exists within
us, like, if you are somebodythat this is resonating for
like, it's not your fault, likethis stuff is learned. It's
rewarded, it's passed down. It'sstructured within every system
(47:17):
we operate in. Like we areexpected to be robotic in so
many ways thatit's funny that you say that I
know I need to go but I have anew a newer client. And he is a
senior and I, we were talkingabout people pleasing and all
that. And we've actually knownhim a long time. And and we were
(47:39):
talking about this last night ina session and I was thinking I
said I said you get a lot ofkudos when you're a kid and you
don't have a lot of needs, thatyou're like the Easy breezy in
the room. You're the one thatlike, yeah, roll with the
punches or whatever. And you canunderstand why people adopt that
(48:03):
because that is highly praised.
Thanks for being so easy. You'reso easy. Yes. It just makes me
cringe.
I hear that about my kids fromtheir teachers and, and we
we know our kids aren't easy. Ihear that about my youngest and
(48:24):
she comes home and has meltdownsbecause she's an advocate or ask
for what she needed all day,which is the whole other thing.
She's Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah.
Okay. All right. Okay. Sorry,that's too long, but not sorry.
Sorry, not sorry. Love you. Loveyou. Bye bye.
Okay. Hello, I for the sleepy sisters.
(00:09):
I'm Elizabeth bring SarahDurham. And we're tired, y'all.
This weather is not making anyeasier.
Now, I don't know. Yeah. Ifyou're listening to this in
winter months. Maybe you'refeeling cold where you live, but
it is frigid.
(00:30):
I also think I say that insummer, too. When it's hot. I'm
like, yeah, it doesn't matter.
It has just been an optimaltemperature for me not to
comment. Not to be sleeping.
Oh, my gosh, we're living in thewrong part of the world. That's
the problem. We wouldn't be sosleepy if we just lived
(00:50):
somewhere where there wasoptimal temperature at all
times. Yeah, we're that is? God.
I know. I don't even think thatexists anywhere at this point.
Okay, so we're gonna talk aboutfawning again, we're going to
we're going to talk aboutfawning, and kind of explore it
beyond in our last explorationabout it, it was a lot around
(01:13):
the holidays and end of yearkind of expectations. And one
thing so and I kept thinkingabout this after so one thing I
wanted to say is that fawningis, I believe, a blended state
in the nervous system, which wementioned last time, but I think
I said it like it was only oneversion of a blended state. And
(01:35):
I'd like to rephrase that. Andsay that, what we know is that
in order to connect sociallywith other people, we use our
like social connection state inour nervous system, which, like,
in polyvagal theory would beventral vagal. And so we know
(01:55):
that state in the nervous systemis involved with fawning. But I,
I think I said last time that itwas a mix between that and
freeze. And I think that is onepresentation of it. But the more
I started thinking about it, Iwas like, you know, I think I
could see a case for a blendedstate, excuse me have that
(02:19):
social connection network and afight response. And in fact, I
think for me, that might be moreof what comes up when I'm in
that state of fawning and thatit's almost like, I don't know
what to do. I don't know how toget out of this. But I'm just
(02:41):
gonna, like, keep talking untilI can safely back away it's
like, and I do think sometimes,I noticed like activation in me.
Like, my heart rate will go upand my voice will start to shake
a little bit. And I don't feelvery Freezy I feel more like I'm
having a little bit of like afight response. And I'm trying
(03:04):
to engage socially. And I'm kindof trying to Swart that feeling
of like, Oh, I really want totell this person what for I
really want to correct them or Ireally want to clarify something
they're saying and it can feellike I'm actually thwarting a
fight response, not like I'mbattling. Oh, I'm Freezy. And
I'm kind of dissociating and I'mjust talking. And people feel
(03:29):
like I'm engaging but I'm reallykind of disengaged in this
conversation. I think sometimesI'm like, overly engaged. And
I'm trying to like people pleaseat the same time, and it can
feel more like this blue kind offight and social engagement. So
that makes sense.
(03:52):
I can totally picture thisscenario. I can just picture you
right now in the stateyou know, it's like you know
what I look like when the sunexactly what you look like it's
like you were making plans aboutsomething and you're you are
doing that face and doing likewell I mean, just think that you
know, and then you know you'llsee if we could do whatever you
(04:14):
want but then you're not reallythere anymore. And I can I know
the look on your face and you'rekind of being appeasing but
you're not really it's one of myI would say probably I'm most
uncomfortable around you whenyou're like this because I don't
(04:34):
really know what the truth is.
About Yeah, and you can liketell I don't either true. Or
maybe I mean I do sometimes Ithink I do know, and I'm having
like an internal battle aroundam I allowed and I had these or
(04:59):
how flexible you We're failingbecause, yeah, sometimes I think
it's hard because you've done somuch work to where we both have
an initial what we want, yes orno. And sometimes it gets
confusing about, I need to sortthis out. And I don't know if
this is me being inflexibleright now, or if this is a
(05:22):
legitimate other option, and Ijust need my system to kind of,
so this talking has happeningwith you, while you're kind of
sorting that out. So you weren'ttechnically there. But you don't
want to totally retreat. I mean,I'm putting this on here. But
this is kind of what I see. Andcan can relate to. And you want
(05:44):
to keep that connection going?
And I don't know if it's becauseyou feel like if you don't keep
the connection going, likeyou're not allowed to do that,
to sort of Yeah,I mean, I think that is exactly,
I mean, that's my trauma, right?
Like, if you think back, youknow, to me as a small child,
trying to make sure that mom isokay, trying to make sure that
(06:08):
she's like that she's connectedto me that she's in the room
that she's with me when she'sgoing through a hard thing, and
is not totally in the room, andunderstandably so now as an
adult. And at the same time, mylittle nervous system is
figuring out, you know, oh,okay, in order to keep the
(06:31):
connection and keep you here,there are certain patterns of
familiarity that need to be likeat play. And, and I think I just
learned at a really young age,to be studying very closely the
nervous system and theexpressions of the other person,
I mean, gauging with and forthat, to then dictate what comes
(06:54):
out of my mouth or what mythoughts or opinions are. And so
when we add a baseline talkabout like setting boundaries,
which is essentially a big partof what this is, like, can I
like something different thanyou want something different
from you and the connection toyou stay intact?
So do you think that you'redoing this in real time? So you
(07:15):
are talking, and you are puttingthings out there? I mean,
imagine you as when you'reyounger. And as the words are
coming out of your mouth, youare watching micro expressions,
and you are pivoting and movingand kind of like a video game.
might try to match how you'rebeing received. Yes. Oh, crap.
(07:38):
That sounds exhausting. Oh, thatis
the form of fawning for me. And,yes, this is why I'm so freakin
tired. You know that, like, ittakes so much work because I'm
trying to appease the otherpeople involved. While at the
same time I'm having thisinternal, you know, battle with
(07:59):
like, maybe a fight response,maybe I don't want to appease
this person, maybe I'm mad,maybe I'm feeling put upon,
there's all kinds of things Icould be feeling. And I'm, I'm
kind of, I'm directing thatfight response energy toward
myself. And I'm using it inorder to keep any of that stuff
(08:22):
from coming out of my mouth. Andusing it from you know, in that
little girl mind from damagingthe connection. And the thing
is, like, there is some of that.
I mean, I studied communicationsin college, right? And like, a
lot of people did that. In orderto get through college. I did it
because I actually really lovecommunications. And I love
(08:43):
studying people and why peopledo and say the things they do.
And I think this part of me waslike, Okay, here's how to
perform, you know, connection,here's how to perform that like
we're a Okay, and so I can sensewhen someone's not okay, I will
(09:03):
initially take it personallylike oh, I've done something
I've said something it'spossible maybe I should put it
out there and check and makesure it's not my fault that they
have this certain, you know,look or aspect and and then if
there is any space there forlike, what do you think what do
(09:24):
you want? It either comes out inlike, what I will call over
energized responses. Or it comesout in this like very, like
you're saying this very likekind of constipated response of
like, Oh, I think I have somethoughts and feelings but I'm
(09:44):
not sure if it's okay for me tojust like, say what I mean and
mean what I say so I do thisweird dance that like if you
know me, well. You do know whatI look like when I'm doing this
and It's exhausting. It makes mewant to avoid decisions even
though I consider myself areally decisive person.
(10:06):
This makes perfect sense when Ithink about our, our dynamic,
because not necessarily I thinkthat we've grown in this area,
but I'm thinking about, like,all the years prior, and why it
frustrates me because my effectis, you know, complicated,
right? Like my of the looks onmy face and you trying to read
(10:30):
and me being an important persontoo. And
let's just say your face looksuninterested, frustrated, over
it. A lot of like, your defaultjust kind of looks over it. It
does. I'mthe Ben Affleck of our family.
Like, it's a really,it definitely affects my day.
Like, when Ithink about, and I have, yeah,
(10:54):
but when I think about that, itmakes sense why? I don't know, I
will take the time to make adecision. Like, I don't know, I
can't think about this rightnow. I gotta like, whatever, and
why you would always try torush. And then you would throw
like 100 options at me, whichwould flood me even more. And
(11:16):
I'll get first of all, I justneed a minute. I can't make this
decision right now. And you justbe like, Well, okay, we could do
this, we could do that. We'regonna do that. And like thinking
like that, that was control in away that was like, it wasn't
really about controlling me itwas more about like,
controlling, like, your safety.
(11:37):
And that like, Okay, I need youto make a decision. So I can
match that. And you're pissingme off because you're like, not
able, because I was more able tosay no. Well,
that and because you'rerequiring me to sit in the
mystery. Yeah. And you're oryou're requiring me to slow down
(11:58):
and my nervous system doesn'tlike slowing down. Not
No, but not right now. Like, Ican't make the decision right.
Now I'm going to go into my casewhere I'm gonna go, and not
actually asking for any moreoptions, like I just would be at
like, decision overload orwhatever it was I just who even
knows with me, right? But then Ialso had the face. And yeah, I
(12:22):
could see how that could bereally uncomfortable for you.
I mean, I will say that, like,as we're talking about this, I'm
having this thought and I justfeel like a lot of my, my like,
activation, I often feel, let meI feel like one of the hardest
(12:47):
things for me to hear fromanother person is, I can't
really talk about this rightnow. I can't decide about this
right now. And it is gettingeasier for me to hear that. And
it's getting easier for me to beable to say that for myself.
Because it is true, a lot of thetime that like I can't make a
(13:08):
decision right now. And mynervous system is so revved up
that it is like just rip theband aid off and do it already.
And learning to like, notinterpret that as a
disconnection from therelationship. That's been a part
of my own internal work is likenot taking that personally, and
(13:29):
celebrating it and other people,which I feel like I've been able
to do pretty consistently withmy clients. And so it's almost
like it's given me good practicethat, like the stakes aren't as
high. And in my relationships,like Cory will say that a lot.
Like I'm at my limit. I don'tthink I can discuss this
anymore, or I don't think Idon't think I can decide that
(13:50):
right now. And I find that whenI say that when I have that
limit, I it comes out activated.
It doesn't come out, likecentered and like, Hey, I'm
noticing a limit that I'm havingright now. And I need to come
back to this later, it comes outlike I can't do this right now.
I've had enough I reached mylimit it like comes out
(14:10):
activated, which then sometimescreates conflict. But it's like,
at least creates conflictinternally. Because then I'll
feel like oh great. Now I'vejust like lit up an argument.
And that fawning peace you knowthat wanting things to be right
in Okay, at all times. Starts tolike that little gremlin starts
to be like, oh forceful.
(14:34):
When I think about if my God, ifyou're, what you're asking for
or decision needs to be madearound an event or something.
And there's more than one persontied to it. Like, let's say you
want to do like a sister'sweekend or whatever. And so like
Cory is tied into it. Me thatguy, you know, and so it's like
a death of me. I mean, I canimagine. Like I not only it's
(14:58):
like I'm asking you for a thingfor For myself, that is pure
delight, it's not a necessity,it's not tied to work. It's the
opposite. I'm gonna like take upspace in a in, in getting into
like something that's reallyjust to make me happy, which oh
my gosh, that's a thing. Andthen you have to coordinate that
(15:18):
with Corey. And then you'reasking, Can we do this and I
would imagine, like, when youcome to visit, like all of the
things with your kids and all ofthat, and I know because I, I
feel something similar. Butwe're talking about you, and I'm
thinking about how big of a dealthis is for you. And just that
I'm just picturing like, justthis, like, you know, spiderweb
(15:40):
of just,I mean, these these few times
that we've gotten all five ofthe siblings together with dad,
and like all of our kids. Sowe've done that. I don't even
know maybe three times in thelast handful of years. One of
them was in November for yourbirthday. There. You're right,
like I'm having like tinglyfeelings in my body right now,
like getting the chills, becauseit's so satisfying. To get to
(16:01):
the point where it's like, oh,my gosh, it's gonna work for
everyone. And they're allexcited. And it feels so good.
And that leading up to it. Yeah,if there's any resistance from
anyone, it can really I can bein a very, like vulnerable place
around. Okay, it's gonna beokay. Don't take it personally,
(16:23):
people are allowed to haveconflicts, they're allowed to
not want conflicts with theirschedules, they're allowed to,
like not want to do the thing.
And, and wanting to, like, meetthe needs of every single
individual who might beinvolved, during
all that negotiating easier thislast time, because I know, then
(16:44):
you come into that space. And Iknow, part of you feels
responsible for the vibe in theroom, and that everyone is, you
know, whatever. But did it makeit easier that the main focus
was my birthday? And not justall of us together? Or did that
make it more complicated, orjust the same? I'm just curious,
(17:06):
I think that madeit more laborious, because then
I was like, oh, and I want tomake it special birthday. So it
just added an extra layer oflike actual labor to the whole
thing. Whereas when we went toNew Mexico together, it felt a
little easier to divide andconquer, though we did do some
of that divide and conquer forthis in terms of meal planning
(17:27):
and stuff. But yeah, I mean, Ijust think about like, the
intricacies of how this shows upfor me, and that, because this
happens to me relationally withpeople, I think I have spent,
you know, most of my life notreally knowing moment to moment,
(17:47):
what I feel like doing or don'tfeel like doing. And that like
that is kind of the crux of thefawning for me is that I'm just
I'm not going with the flow. Solet's not confuse things like
that, it doesn't look like goingwith the flow. If you know me,
you're like, This is not aperson who goes with the flow.
It's a person who manages to gowith the flow, or like forces
(18:13):
themselves to go with the flow.
And sometimes there's a littlefallout from that. And the
fallout is usually internal forme at a minimum, where I will
feel totally wiped out or justlike really frustrated. And I
will feel like there is arelational rift between me and
(18:34):
someone because of how much workI've had to do to thwart my
internal responses to you know,protecting me and to choosing me
and what I want. And this is areally difficult dynamic for me.
And there's this example thatjust happened. I guess we're
(18:55):
just going to make this aboutme, but I want to hear what what
pieces this brings up for you.
But not yet. There's this so,um, so I have this is like a
real life example. It'shappening right now I've decided
to get a tattoo. And I'm excitedabout it. I'm nervous. But I'm
(19:15):
excited about it. And Cory isnot that into it. He's not like
opposed to it. He's just like,mad or whatever. Right? And so
you can imagine how that feelsto me because when I was
younger, and Sara and I would gowith our moms like Walmart or
Target, I would like hold up ashirt and be like, for her and
(19:37):
be like, what about this one?
And she'd be like, Oh, it'scute. And it was like if it
wasn't like that is the cutestthing ever. I felt like rejected
like she had someonebuy something that you have
suggested. It's like the heavenshave opened up and you're like,
Yes, I'm saying I'd sayyou love it. Yes you do. And So
(19:57):
I have a really hard time whenpeople have a difference of
opinion. And I think I've justonly recently realized that
that's a boundary thing. Andthat there's this challenge for
my nervous system of, oh, no,that's dangerous. If you have a
difference of opinion, thenmaybe the relationship and the
connection is at risk. And so itcan be over like really silly
(20:22):
things. Like, you know, do youlike this? Do you like this
thing I made that you're eatingright now or whatever. Or it can
be like, I'm about to put thispermanent art on my body. And
you know, I want him to be like,you and Becca have been, which
is like, this is so fun. It's soexciting. Oh, that looks so cool
with like, my little inspirationpictures. And like, y'all are
(20:43):
doing the thing, because youknow, that you need to do that
thing for me. Like, this is sogreat. And I actually am like, I
need that so much that I don'tcare. Even though I think I do
believe it's genuine. I'mchoosing to believe. And so
anyway, then, on the flip sideof this, there was this thing
(21:07):
that Corey wanted to buy thatcost a lot of money, and in my
mind is frivolous, and maybeborderline absurd, but like,
bring Him joy. And it's justlike a game thing. It's like,
anyway. But it was a lot ofmoney and as is a tattoo and so
he mentioned it to me, it'ssomething that his brother has.
(21:31):
So when we were there, over theholidays, he like got really
excited about it. And I was justlike, this is okay. And he
mentioned it, he didn't reallyask like, Hey, can we get this?
We go back and forth aroundspending and how we kind of
talked about spending. But I waskind of like, gosh, that's a lot
(21:51):
of money. I don't know. And Ifelt kind of hesitant about it.
Anyway, he ordered it. And thenhe's like, Oh, it's arriving,
right? And I'm like you got youordered it. And okay, so then he
arrives. And over the course ofa couple of days, it just
arrived on Friday. So it's likesuper fresh. So over the course
of a couple days before itarrived or whatever. I also on
(22:13):
Thursday had my console for mytattoo. And we had this
interaction where like, thesetwo things are kind of happening
at the same time. And I'm justnoticing how different his whole
process is around doing a thingthat I'm like, not that
approving of I wasn'tdisapproving. I just was kind of
(22:35):
like, willing to do a lot ofmoney. So maybe I was a little
disapproving. And how physicallyuncomfortable I am with him not
being able to like, give me afull bodied affirmed like, This
is so great. You're tattooingyour arm. And I felt a little
locked up. And we were like inthe kitchen and he could tell
(23:00):
and he was like, Are you mad atme? And I was just sitting there
kind of reeling like what ishappening? What's happening in
my body? What am I feeling? AndI got a little emotional because
I was just like, this is on me.
This is my work. This is mystuff. I need to be okay with
you not being fully on boardwith me doing this thing. And
(23:22):
that not stealing some of my joyfrom doing it. Yeah. And I need
to be okay with doing it anyway,and and not feeling torn about
it. Because that's what it did.
It initially made me feel evenmore unsure. Like maybe I
shouldn't do this.
Yeah, I know this feeling well.
And that is not what he wassaying. He wasn't saying I don't
(23:43):
think you should do this. He'sjust saying tattoos aren't for
me. The same thing I'm feelingabout this game thing, which so
it because they're happening atthe same time, I'm like, so
envious, that he can just likedo this thing and not worry
about the connection between thetwo of us if he does this thing
that I met about, right? It'snot even like there's real
(24:04):
conflict. And I'm like, No, thisis not okay. I do not want this
in the house. Yeah, right. Likethat's different. That's not
what I'm talking about. It'slike this is so nuanced. And
it's like there's not conflicthere. But my system is reading
it like it's conflict anddangerous.
How dare you be so nonchalantabout your purchase and be all
(24:26):
experiencing joy?
And like, why can't I have thatyou know, and just that that
like feeling? I mean, I went tobed on Friday feeling like a
little sad. And a little like,reconnected to me like sad maybe
in a good way just like oh, wow,okay, this is totally about me.
(24:48):
And I do I want to talk to do Ilike the idea I have for like
kind of trying to reconnectmyself to what I was already
deciding And feeling like, I'mdoing this thing for me because
I like it. It has nothing to dowith my relationship to anyone
(25:08):
else. And gosh, I really wishthat were easier for me to do
that I feel exactly the same wayand so much so that I very
rarely will ask somebody, whattheir opinion is about something
like that, because of thoseboundaries, or my emotions, I
know how sensitive I am. And ifI even on microexpression, if
(25:32):
it's something where I'm like, Ireally want this and I can't
make room for someone not beingjust over the moon for me or
whatever. I will just keep it tomyself. And it's unfortunate
because like it, you know, itkind of takes away from like
(25:54):
your experience when you can'tlike, share with other people
like something fun or excitingor whatever. I can't remember I
don't have an example of thelast time I did this. I do know
Joshua is very much the sameway. And I will watch him like
I'm watching an animal at thezoo experience some of these
(26:14):
things like when the way that hecuz he's built different, like
different he's got he doesn'tworry as much he doesn't have is
he bought if you want somethingfor himself, like, you know,
kill, he'll do it. And I watchedlike that him in that sometimes
where I'm just like, likewatching an animal at the zoo or
(26:36):
in the wild, like what ishappening over there. Like,
you're totally like, intowhatever it is you're doing.
We're in areas where I struggle,you know, so did you ate, were
you able to go back and connectand be like, Yeah, I do want
that tattoo, or did you decide?
No, I don't really want it.
Yeah, I'm getting it. But what'sinteresting is, as you're saying
(26:57):
that I'm realizing like, so thisthing arrived on Friday that
Corey ordered. And he's beensuper into it and excited, like
had a friend over to show it tothem. And really, really wants
me to play it. And it's like, Ifeel like I'm not trying to be
(27:18):
like evasive. It's just it's apinball machine. But it's like a
digital pinball machine. And soyou can like play different, but
they call tables apparently.
Anyway. I love pinball. Oh,okay. Well, next time you visit,
I'll be so excited for you toenjoy it. But anyway, because I
was like, what? I also kind ofhate pinball because, like
(27:39):
growing up, I feel like heplayed pinball. And it feels so
pointless and so frustrating.
Like, I could never, I justdidn't have the patience. I
don't know something. So anyway,he's like, really wants me to
play it. He's like, do you wantto play? Do you want to play
like, every time I walked by, Iset up a puzzle near him. So I
(28:00):
could like, be by him. Butanyway, I feel like I'm
bordering on stealing some ofhis joy over this thing. Because
I'm so like, No, I don't want toplay it. Like I don't actually
really like pinball them. Soagain, like the boundary thing
of like, you're enjoying this somuch and I am not gonna like get
(28:20):
into pinball with you. The kidsare they're totally into it.
That hurt his feelings. Wouldyou think that would he
just looks like a little kid. Igotta tell you, he's so happy
with this thing. And that ismaking me happy seeing him so
happy. So I did play ityesterday. And I was terrible at
it, of course. And he was like,trying to explain me all the
(28:41):
complex dynamics of the boardand like, what you're trying to
accomplish because it isapparently like a skilled thing
with I just, you know, I'vealways felt like it's a thing
where like, this ball justricochets all over and then
you've wasted your quarter.
Brush was bought board gamesbefore? Yeah, he like really
loves war games. And like,there's some that I'm into, but
(29:04):
he'll be all excited and youknow, have one delivered and
it's been a while but and he'slike to play this and I'm like,
that sounds like death to me.
Yeah, the amount of like, rulesand things that you're gonna
have to explain to me, yes, youhave to, like do a practice
round like 30 times just to haveit. Like, because the interest
(29:26):
isn't there. And then like, youknow, the how like, him and Sam
kind of just are able to like,get the rules right away and
play. It's just it's not. Yeah,I hadn't thought about this from
like a neuro divergencestandpoint, but like, totally. I
am not interested in learningthe ins and outs of pinball
(29:53):
and being a pinball mom the insand outs so she just like,
No, I'm telling you, there'sit's all I'll definitely play
with them. Yeah, for sure.
And like, Yeah, I'm not I'm notgeeking out on him, I don't want
to get into it necessarily. AndI feel like it's one of those
things that like thosecomplicated board games, you
can't just like, try it and getinto it once and like, maybe
(30:16):
enjoy it and then move on, hekind of have to like, learn.
There'sno fawning when it comes down on
my mat.
I think that's it too. Like, I'mnot finding but then I'm like,
stuck with all this ickyfeelings.
The internalized experience isdifferent than you I say that,
(30:37):
but I won't do it sometimes. Butthen, like the boundary, the
saying no, but then I am stillleft exhausted, because then I'm
still managing. Having said thatfor myself and knowing that I've
(30:57):
probably disappointed and Idon't think there's any last
exhausting?
No, it's It's exhausting tobecause we also have kids, we
have neighbors, we havesiblings. Like we have all kinds
of other relationships in ourlives where this kind of thing
is happening, you know, wherethere's invitations, and there's
(31:19):
just, you know, people who areinteracting with us in ways that
require us to know if we have ayes or no in us. And do you
remember like doing that? Wheredo you remember, it's like, it
goes in stages this work. But Iremember, there's also that kind
(31:42):
of stage where you start sayingnow but then you tack on like,
Well, how about we do this?
Oh, my gosh, right. You likecreate more work for yourself?
Because now you can come up witha creative alternative. Let's
actually have to have lunch,like in the next two weeks, when
you know, you have no time.
Oh, my gosh, I've been doingthis so much lately. I have my
(32:05):
schedule for January andFebruary are truly overwhelming
me. And they were even like inDecember, I was feeling like, oh
my gosh, what have I done? Andyeah, the people wanting some
time and people I want to spendtime with and feeling like oh my
gosh, I don't have it. And so Ineed to offer an alternative
(32:28):
rather than saying, I mean, I'mavailable in like March or
April. Real bad.
I feel like it's the worst withthe kids with the littles it's,
it's definitely,oh, I'd like to say this to them
to where, you know, they come upand they want to do a certain
thing. And you're thinking Noway. But they want to connect,
(32:48):
so you come up with somethinglater in the day, we'll have to
finish and they remember, theyalways are. And
the mind will say you usepromise your you said we were
going to do that. And I'm justlike, I was
(33:09):
another alternative or it'slike, Well, how about we just do
this?
Why don't you play in thebathtub? And I'll sit there?
What No, no? Yeah, I mean, it'slike, yeah, that's the thing is
like, I mean, it's not like thisis all fawning. And I mean, some
(33:29):
of it is but like, it's alsothat we do care about these
people. And, you know, Coreysjoy, and my kids Joy matters to
me. And I just feel a littlemixed up. And like, I'm not
quite there yet with figuringout what that means and how that
(33:50):
influences my possible you arefrom day to day for your art in
that I think that's the thing,it's this, this kind of
responsibility that we feel tothe people that we care about
that are you know, that we, youknow, have some responsibility
and that and I know, it's verynuanced, I don't want to say,
(34:13):
well, you know, I have noresponsibility towards my
children experiencing joy. But Ithink on a day to day basis,
what they want and what they arewilling to carve and siphoned
from you is for like, at leastone of my kids insatiable,
right. She just wants more thanwhat any human could possibly
(34:39):
give. And so it's like, where doI draw that line? And then like
watching the struggle and thediscomfort and all of that and
not coming alongside, but youit's very tricky, like, well,
how much of this is, you know,is mine and hers then this is
like, yeah, it'sexhausting. It's like, I, I feel
(35:04):
exhausted by this way of beingin relationship to others. Yeah.
And, you know, there is there isa fallout for it. You know,
there is relational burnoutthere is, you know, when, when
COVID started, and we went intolockdown, I felt such relief.
(35:27):
There was no need to do anyhosting, and coordinating. I
only had like, one focus thatwas to like, keep us healthy.
Oh, my gosh, it was yes. It waslike a vacation. No, it was not
(35:47):
really. I mean, it was like,incredibly stressful. And there
was so much going on that year,that overall 2020 was, to some
degree very traumatic for me,but at the same time in this
regard, you know, I think, youknow, toward my kids, this
wasn't like, it was not avacation, because they were very
(36:07):
young. And I was having to dothis so much at home with them.
And with Corey with negotiating.
But she would have been doingthat anyway. I mean, they were
at that age. Yeah. Didn't havethat weekend, you know, pull up
someone having to invitesomebody over being available.
(36:28):
Yeah. And all that. Yeah, Iagree. I mean, that well, that
spare time was just like, Well,what do you want to do with it?
Like, I mean, some of it, notall of it, because I do have
kids. But yeah, there was spacefor me to launch a business
fully into the, you know, world.
And,yeah, and I think, you know, as
(36:49):
far as this goes, there's a lotof blurred lines, I guess,
between Fani, and like, theemotional labor of like, what
goes into like, parenting andbeing a spouse, sibling, I mean,
it was just even thinking about,over the holidays, and just the
anticipatory, like, mental andemotional labor of meeting the
(37:12):
needs and making sure things areequal. And, you know, all the
kids felt seen and heard and allof that, and, you know, I think
I did a pretty good job oftaking care of myself, and it
(37:34):
still took a while to come outof that.
Yeah, I feel like I'm not yetthere. Like, I don't know, I
have more I have figured out howto take care of myself, like, in
a way that feeds like, my needfor learning and curiosity. And,
(38:01):
you know, kind of theintellectual side of me, I've
managed to do that through mywork and like, studying somatic
experiencing, and just doing somuch learning, and finding like,
that is feeding all those partsof me around hobby and interests
and all of that. And I'm gladthat still feeding me because
it's been a few years. So, youknow, it's like, oh, maybe I
(38:24):
have a hobby. It's just my job.
But I, I don't yet know how toreally, like, know, where I
begin and end and other peoplebegin and how to, like, say,
this is what I'm doing with mytime. You know, I'm, it's
(38:45):
getting easier, like, I'mgetting better at it. But I do
feel like it's like adisciplined practice, like,
making plans with someone ordeciding I'm this happened
yesterday where I was like, I'mgonna go lay down, and I went
upstairs and lay down and put myearplugs in and just like, dosed
in and out. And that is like,I'm getting better at that. And
(39:10):
that is like the one thing whereI'm just like, here's the thing
I'm gonna do. And it's during,like off hours where we're both
home, and I'm choosing me. And Ifeel like it's something I want
to get better at. I need to getbetter at it. One
thing I started doing, like Iguess, towards the end of last
(39:33):
year was praying Do Not Disturbon my phone, because I will get
derailed if you know my eldestneeds me or if you guys text
even though I want to beinvolved. It's like, I don't
know from day to day, how much Ican engage and what is going to
derail me from what I need toget done. And if someone I care
(39:53):
about is meeting me or sharingsomething with me, it can be
just the thing that will tellReally pull me away from
whatever responsibilities orthings I have that day. And
especially if I'm writing orcreating it, just you know, and
so that has been a huge help forme. Because if I see it come up,
(40:16):
like on my phone or whatever,even if it's on silent, I can't
help and if someone sayssomething activating, or someone
is in distress, or whatever, orsaying something interesting,
like, here, you guys are like,Oh, this is really interesting
article, and I'm like, Oh, God,here. And now it's like, I know,
I just don't even know what'shappening on that phone. And I
(40:39):
can't put it in another roomnecessarily, because I do have
to check in with someone cuz Igot kids at school and stuff
like that. So that's been a hugething for like, my emotional
boundaries, like during,what do you feel like? Do you
feel like having that tool tosupport your boundaries? Do you
feel like it's making it? Like,is it improving your ability to
(41:02):
like, state and hold a boundaryin relationship to other people,
like, in real time? Does thatmake sense? Like, that's a tool
that you're using? What happensif it goes away? Are you getting
better at the thing?
I do think I am. I think thatwhen I discovered, what was
(41:23):
derailing me, which is myemotions during the day, and
what are the things we're anopportunist, so I don't like
necessarily don't get on socialmedia and look at like things
that are gonna get me you know,whatever. Having the Do Not
Disturb on was kind of like myline in the sand of like, my
work time. Is needs to beprotected, I want it to be
(41:47):
protected. And everyone thinksthat just because I'm working
from home that I'm available allthe damn time. And the thing is,
is like, I know you and Beccaare working from home. And you
guys are similar, like yourespond when you can and when
you but I feel a certain type ofway if I know it's in there. And
(42:07):
so knowing that about myself,yeah, I do think that, you know,
it has made me you know, withlike, Joshua and the kids a lot
more like, this is my work time.
And so yeah, I do think it has,I think it was like the first
step in me kind of saying, thisisn't a free for all. I'm not a
(42:28):
stay at home mom, that happensto be working. I need the
resources and the time to dothis full time job. Just because
I'm actually in the house doesnot mean I'm available. And I
feel like you know, Jake, youknow, my eldest like he far
away, but like kinda, she'sactually never expected much for
(42:51):
me in that way. As far as I, Ithink I felt like I should be
available, like if he would, youknow, so now what I don't know
won't hurt me. I won't check it.
And so I need to check it.
(43:11):
And you're not feeling like apull? I guess I'm saying like,
what if Do Not Disturb no longerexisted on your phone? Do you
feel like it's easier now? Like,has it helped you to resolve or
train yourself to be able tointeract differently with the
discomfort of knowing there'ssomebody there with something
(43:33):
for you, who youdon't have time or space to
interact with right now?
A little bit. Not a ton, but alittle bit? Yeah, I do think
it's helped a little bit. Butthe reason why I have it on my
phone is because I'm not thereyet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But like,
(43:55):
I do think that it's helping meto make peace with that boundary
for myself of like, this isgoing to be in place until I'm
comfortable really assertingmyself in that area. Is if I
really felt nothing emotionally,but I would just have taken it.
I wouldn't even it wouldn'tmatter. Right? Yeah, I do. I
(44:19):
think it's mentally just kind ofbeen a marker for me of like,
this is what we're gonna do. Andthen I'm doing it too when I'm
doing bedtime with the kids. Um,or I'm ready to go to bed. I
mean, it really it's kind of onall the time now. And I know
that like, you guys will justsend your stuff which I want you
(44:42):
to, you know. But yeah, there'sit's, it's helped me kind of
deciding how much I can engagewith or not, because sometimes
I'll want to do two dots on myphone at night for a little
while. And And you and Beccawill be going back and forth
(45:03):
sending messages. And I don'twant to be left out. But I don't
necessarily want to fully engageat that point. Yeah. Depends.
And if I look and I'm like, Oh,they're talking about stuff, and
I want to I will. Yeah.
Yeah. Which I think we're Yeah.
I think the other day, we did myphone. I had 38 text messages
that had come in within like anhour. And I was like, what is
happening? Oh, isyou guys I mean, it's you and
(45:25):
Becca, if I've got 30 or 40messages, it's it's the sisters.
It was the thread with Matt'sbaby, though. So it was the
cousin's baby. So I was like,Oh, this is a fun one. Anyway,
well, we should call it butyeah, it's like, tired. Yeah,
(45:50):
no, it's a good topic. I think,you know, this idea of like
boundaries and fawning and like,where do I begin an end? And
what's okay, how do I say no tothings? If I really can't, it's
just, it's contributing toexhaustion for a lot of people,
especially those of us who arealso caregivers of some kind,
(46:12):
and are working outside of thehome. It's just
what is such a, like? We saidearlier? So much of it, too. Is
this like, internal experiencethat we're like, why am I so
tired? I mean, that was Yeah, Iguess
it doesn't really have anythingto do with like life stage or
what responsibilities you have.
It's like, totally internally.
(46:36):
Are you feeling okay with havinga difference of opinion or
needing things or wantingthings? And are you wearing
yourself out with like, fawning,and then internalizing all the
stress around what you reallyneeded and wanted to
do? Or even getting into thesystems, the oppressive system?
(46:57):
Oh, gosh, no, this is like, justlike interpersonal stuff, right.
And I think that's actuallyreally important to say that,
like,none of this just exists within
us, like, if you are somebodythat this is resonating for
like, it's not your fault, likethis stuff is learned. It's
rewarded, it's passed down. It'sstructured within every system
(47:17):
we operate in. Like we areexpected to be robotic in so
many ways thatit's funny that you say that I
know I need to go but I have anew a newer client. And he is a
senior and I, we were talkingabout people pleasing and all
that. And we've actually knownhim a long time. And and we were
(47:39):
talking about this last night ina session and I was thinking I
said I said you get a lot ofkudos when you're a kid and you
don't have a lot of needs, thatyou're like the Easy breezy in
the room. You're the one thatlike, yeah, roll with the
punches or whatever. And you canunderstand why people adopt that
(48:03):
because that is highly praised.
Thanks for being so easy. You'reso easy. Yes. It just makes me
cringe.
I hear that about my kids fromtheir teachers and, and we
we know our kids aren't easy. Ihear that about my youngest and
(48:24):
she comes home and has meltdownsbecause she's an advocate or ask
for what she needed all day,which is the whole other thing.
She's Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah.
Okay. All right. Okay. Sorry,that's too long, but not sorry.
Sorry, not sorry. Love you. Loveyou. Bye bye.
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