June 4, 2025 • 44 mins
What is a brand—and why do so many business owners get it wrong?
In this powerful episode of Small Business Pivots, host Michael D. Morrison sits down with Jim Heininger, Principal at Rebranding Experts, to unpack the true meaning of branding and why updating a logo is not the same as rebranding. From iconic transformations like Victoria’s Secret, Abercrombie & Fitch, and Meta (formerly Facebook), Jim breaks down how strategic rebranding fuels long-term business growth.
You’ll discover:
- Why branding is about customer experience, not just visuals
- The 3 types of brand change: refresh, reposition, and complete rebrand
- Jim’s proven 4-step rebranding process used by successful companies
- Why internal alignment is often harder than external updates
- How small businesses have unique advantages in the rebranding process
- Why naming your business after yourself might hurt your exit strategy
- How to use customer research to guide branding decisions—not opinions
Whether you're a small business owner preparing for growth or an entrepreneur building from scratch, this episode is packed with branding insights that could reshape your business.
🎧 Whether your business is stuck or just ready for more growth, this conversation will challenge and inspire you to think differently about your brand.
Jim Heininger: Rebranding Experts, Founder & Principal
Website: https://www.rebrandingexperts.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimheininger/
Rebranding Guidance: https://www.rebrandingexperts.com/rebranding-expertise
Blog: https://www.rebrandingexperts.com/blog
#JimHeininger #RebrandingExperts #MichaelMorrison #SmallBusinessPivots #Podcast #OklahomaCity #BOSS #BrandStrategy #RebrandingTips #SmallBusinessGrowth #BusinessBranding #EntrepreneurMindset #BrandRefresh #BusinessTransformation #MarketingStrategy #BrandIdentity #RebrandYourBusiness #ExitStrategyPlanning #CustomerExperience #SmallBusinessCoach #BusinessDevelopment #BrandEvolution #BusinessPodcast #LeadershipTips #BusinessSuccess #GrowthMindset #EntrepreneurJourney
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome to another Small Business Pivots.
Today we have another specialguest from around the world and
I know only the business ownercan introduce themselves and
their company like they can.
So I'm going to let youintroduce yourself.
Tell us a little bit about youand your company.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Branding Experts, which is a very specialized
agency that focuses on helpingorganizations or businesses that
need to go through a brandtransformation from a beginning
to end kind of process to beable to achieve the phenomenal
outcomes that rebranding canhelp bring an organization Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
That's.
I know a lot of businessescould use that, because I know,
just driving down the streetfrom time to time I'll see a
vehicle and I'm going.
Okay, I don't even know what youdo Like that was a waste of a
car wrap because you just putyour name and it doesn't even
make sense.
So, yeah, this is this will begood.
So, listeners, buckle up.
(01:02):
We're going to introduce theshow real quick and we'll be
right back.
Welcome to Small BusinessPivots, a podcast produced for
small business owners.
I'm your host, michael Morrison, founder and CEO of BOSS, where
we make business ownershipsimplified for success.
Our business is helping yoursgrow.
(01:22):
Boss offers business loans withbusiness coaching support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours.
Atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
Jim, I know a lot of our smallbusiness owners have gone
through trials and tribulationsfrom time to time in their life.
(01:44):
I know most of our listenersknow by now that I was an
introvert, had to overcome that,anything like that that you
went through, because I know alot of business owners learn
from other business owners andhow you maybe overcame it.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, I think you know it's the lesson of
perseverance.
So you know as long a career asI've had, there are ups and
downs.
Perseverance so you know aslong a career as I've had there
are.
There are ups and downs.
There are times when perhaps Iwas in an organization, working
with an organization, where yousaid this just isn't right, this
just isn't working out right,and the kind of strength to be
able to say that and say I thinkwe need to take a time out.
(02:18):
It's better for both of us, youknow to to move on in different
directions.
So that's probably the that'sprobably the thing that several
times in my career have had theopportunity to experience.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Wow, yeah, there are a lot of people stuck and I know
even some of our listeners arenot quite business owners yet.
They're what I callentrepreneur wannabes.
You know they've been thinkingabout this for years and they're
just stuck.
So perseverance and being ableto move on and get uncomfortable
(02:51):
is a big thing.
Anything that maybe helped youkind of overcome that and pull
the trigger.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
You know it really comes down to that confidence in
your core, you know, andbelieving in yourself.
And you know if somethingdoesn't feel right for you, then
there's probably it's your gutstelling you something.
Listen to it.
So I think it's you know, it'sthat ability to to you know.
You all know what it feels likewhen things are working well.
(03:19):
So when something's not workingwell, then it feels different
and really kind of diving in,questioning yourself, asking all
the things, getting to theheart of it and then being able
to communicate that to whoeveryour business partner is, your
client, your customer, and beable to say you know, this is
how I feel, how are you feeling?
And usually it's a mutual kindof agreement then that let's
(03:42):
move forward in differentdirections kind of agreement
then that let's move forward indifferent directions.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Wow, that's, that's powerful and very helpful.
You mentioned somethingcommunicate and I know with
branding that's really what itis is communicating who you are,
what you do, that all kinds ofgood stuff and the vehicles I
was kind of mentioning earlierliterally have the faces of the
owner on the trucks.
I've seen these trucks aroundso they probably have maybe a
dozen of the box trucks.
(04:11):
I know who the owners arebecause they're very clear on
the side of the vehicle with thecompany name, but I can't find
what they do.
So communication is big in thebranding world, so we're going
to help a lot of people.
So, with you being the expertin this, is there a particular
place you want to start?
(04:31):
Do you want to start from startto end, or are there places you
where do you want to go withthis to help?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, and I think let's let's just turn out was
what is branding, and you knowwhat does it mean?
Because if you're going torebrand, that means you're going
to start anew, you're going tobuild a new brand.
So what is that brand?
In the very beginning, and Ialways like to encourage people
to think of it's not your name,it's not your logo.
The brand is the total set ofexperiences that a customer has
(04:58):
with your organization.
So it could be a name.
That's good or not.
It could be the trucks they seerolling down the street with
your image on them, and so forth.
It could be when you hire them.
What's the experience like?
How do you relate to thecustomer?
When the customer has a problem, how is it dealt with?
(05:19):
All those things feed into thatbigger picture of what your
brand is.
All those things feed into thatbigger picture of what your
brand is, and I always encouragepeople to remember.
You try to control the brand foryour company.
You try to position it the wayyou want it to and communicate
it the way you want it to.
At the end of the day, thebrand sits in the customer's
mind and that's where it really.
(05:40):
You know how you see that it'sall those experiences,
everything rolled in togetherand do they have a favorable
impression of your brand or anegative one?
So are they going to choose todo business with you again in
the future, or are they going tochoose to go to a competitor?
So keep that in mind whenyou're thinking about branding,
because branding is all aboutdifferentiating.
(06:01):
It's all about making sure thatpeople understand what is
unique about you, about yourcompany, about the service that
you offer, and how it's betteror a better match than what your
competitors are offering.
So brand sits in the mind andbranding is about
differentiation, so that you canreally make sure to embed it in
(06:23):
everything that you do.
Differentiation so that you canreally make sure to embed it in
everything that you do.
So that's kind of the startingpoint.
So then, if you think ofrebranding, which is what we
specialize in, that's when yourealize the brand I have is not
doing as good a job for me as itshould.
It's not working hard enough.
It's perhaps anchoring me toperceptions of my business that
(06:45):
I don't want people thinkingabout anymore.
Maybe you've grown beyond theoriginal service that you
offered, or your products areavailable in new outlets or new
services that they were in thepast.
Or maybe you've growngeographically and so you've got
a brand that's very centric toa geographic locale where you
(07:08):
started.
But now that's kind of ananchor, it's weighing you down
and you want to look at theoption of rebranding, which
would mean standing up anentirely new brand for the
organization.
That is much moreforward-facing, that totally
encompasses all the work thatyou do now and maybe what you
may add to your services in thefuture as well.
(07:30):
Maybe it defines a biggercustomer group than you
originally had and so it kind ofuntethers you from the past and
allows you to move forwardaggressively in the future.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
So I hear a lot of people say they're rebranding,
but from what you're saying,they're not really rebranding
because they got a new logo.
They say I'm getting my logoredesigned and that's not what
you're talking about, is it?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
No, no, let me break out kind of three levels of the
way we think about it, becausethese are all very viable
strategies that you can pursue.
And then rebranding will be thelast example, which is the more
comprehensive one, becausethese are all very viable
strategies that you can pursue.
And then rebranding will be thelast example, which is the more
comprehensive one.
So organizations all the timewill refresh their brand and a
(08:16):
brand refresh is really more ofa visual makeover of your brand
to make it look fresher, moremodern, attract some news and
excitement to your brand.
So that might mean changingyour logo, updating your logo.
It might mean a new websitethat's got a new color palette
and maybe some new messaging,but it's really more visually
(08:37):
oriented to bring a new level ofexcitement to your brand.
We see those all the time.
Sports teams constantly arechanging kind of their
merchandise, you know, at thestart of a new season to make it
look more exciting and to sella lot more of the new stuff than
they did in the past.
So we see brand refreshes allthe time.
The next step up from that iswhen you would reposition your
(09:01):
brand and that would be whereyou recognize that the way
you're being perceived is toolimiting and it doesn't reflect
fully the direction that you'rewanting to go in terms of the
products that you're offering,the services that you're
offering.
So you would define a newcustomer audience, you would
kind of update your brandpromise to be more reflective
(09:24):
and more inclusive of the newmarkets you're going to the new
geographic areas that maybeyou're wanting to expand into.
We see brand repositionings allthe time in the retail
marketplace.
So some very visible ones thateverybody probably has seen some
evidence of is Victoria'sSecret.
So three or four years ago theysaid, okay, everybody's
(09:47):
perceiving us as being themodels on the runway shows and
so forth, and that wasn't veryinclusive of a whole huge
segment of women who were ofdifferent body shapes and sizes
that weren't buying theirproducts in the past because
they were perceived as beingthat perfect runway model kind
of look.
So they changed the sizings,they changed the styles of some
(10:11):
of their products and so forthto be more inclusive and they
started to use otherspokespeople that were
representative of thatinclusivity.
Even Megan Rapone, the soccerstar you know who's, you know
lesbian who is not is trying toimpress her man, kind of in what
lingerie she's wearing.
It was a whole way to open up anew marketplace by
(10:33):
repositioning themselves thatway.
Now it's still kind of in playand it's still working three or
four years later and they'restill tinkering with that brand
repositioning because some waysit hasn't worked, some ways that
they're still trying to fix it,so to speak.
Another retail brandrepositioning was Abercrombie
Fitch.
Once again, they used all thosesexy models of young teenagers
(10:55):
or the boys with their shirtsoff, ripped abs, all that kind
of stuff, and a lot of peopleweren't buying their products
because they said that's not me,I don't see myself in that
brand.
So they changed the products,they changed the marketing and
were able to be more inclusiveand bring in new customers that
they previously weren't able tocapture.
(11:18):
Again, both of those examplesare all about growth.
It's all about how are we goingto strategically grow our brand
and our business.
Repositioning was the answerthere.
Then, on top of that, you haverebranding, which is when you're
standing up an entirely newbrand.
Re, you know, is the prefix,means to start anew.
(11:38):
So you're not tinkering withwhat you have as much as what.
You are recreating an entirelynew brand, and this is where you
would change the name of yourorganization as well, too, to
better portray to your customerswhat you do for them, what is
the outcome of having anexperience with your brand.
And then you would also add tothat the repositioning and the
(12:02):
refreshing, so it's the totalpackage much more comprehensive
kind of effort.
And you don't see this as often,because it's a heavier lift and
a heavier investment for abusiness to do.
And you have to do it right,because you have to make sure
that it's built upon your pastand the equities of your current
brand but define yourself in anew way that customers are going
(12:24):
to say I love it and newcustomers are going to say I
want to be a part of that.
So when we look at rebranding,some of the examples that we see
a lot oftentimes they come frommergers or acquisitions, where
you've got two companies thatare coming together and you're
having to make some branddecisions, and sometimes you say
(12:44):
we're going to go with a biggerbrand, the more well-known
brand, or sometimes people saywe're going to create an
entirely new brand thatencompasses both companies that
have come as part of this merger, this acquisition.
The one that people probablyidentify with most in recent
years is the introduction ofMeta as being the parent company
(13:05):
, first thing that I thought of.
Yeah of Facebook.
So if you look at thatsituation, facebook was clearly
defined as a social mediaplatform and it was carrying a
lot of baggage.
This is back in the days whenpeople were criticizing Facebook
a lot, that it was exposingyoung people to things they
shouldn't be seeing.
It had some ulterior motivesthat people didn't like and they
(13:29):
strategically wanted to growtheir business into that whole
kind of virtual reality spaceand said this is more than
Facebook, this is a whole newbusiness venture that we're
wanting to introduce and we wantto own it from the beginning.
So we want to coin a term, themetaverse which they could own,
(13:50):
and then a brand name which putthem out in front of anybody
else that was in this market.
So they introduced meta astheir corporate brand name, so
not replacing Facebook, but tobe the bigger brand name so that
they could then more easilyprogress their virtual reality
business lines.
And it left behind Facebook andthe baggage that it was
(14:13):
carrying and it didn't taintmeta.
Then they kind of cleared anice clean space for them to be
able to go into that new metauniverse and their products
there, for them to be able to gointo that new meta universe and
their products there Now.
Is it being successful?
Is always a question people aregoing to talk about.
You know it left behindFacebook to do its own business.
(14:34):
How successful they've been inthe virtual reality thing a lot
of different analysts withdifferent opinions on it, but a
clear example on how, if you arestuck or you're not, if you
have a brand that doesn'tnecessarily answer what you're
wanting to do in terms of yourstrategic growth, then a rebrand
might be the answer to enableyou to do that.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
You talked about a comprehensive approach to
rebranding, to rebranding, andwe've worked as a business coach
, we've worked alongside withsome businesses that rebranded,
and they were completelydifferent experiences, you know,
cause I guess everyone kind ofhas their own point of view of
how it should be done.
But from your lens, how longdoes that comprehensive approach
(15:20):
look like?
Like what do you do?
For instance, one of ourclients they did a deep dive
into everything market space,everything and the other one,
not quite so much.
So on your opinion, kind of,what does that look like?
So a company knows what toexpect when you say
comprehensive.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, and we, you know.
So we've got a four-stepprocess that we, that we follow
that big or small, you know, orhow aggressive they want.
Four-step process that wefollow that big or small, you
know, or how aggressive theywant to get into the effort.
There's still pieces of it thatyou need to do, and the first
step of that is really it'sassessing your current brand.
So what is your currentbusiness?
What does that brand stand for?
How do your customers perceiveit?
What attributes do they give tothe brand, and so forth?
(16:01):
So that you know where you'restarting from, do they give to
the brand, and so forth?
So that you know where you'restarting from.
And oftentimes companies willdo a great deal of research to
determine how much flexibilitycustomers will give them to
change the brand or whether theyneed to rebrand.
So can we reposition it or dowe need to rebrand to be able to
(16:23):
achieve our business objectiveshere?
The second step, then, and sothat's where you know some
companies will do a lot ofresearch to have a very clear
understanding of that.
Others will say you know what,I got a gut feel for what it's
like and I might not have theresources to do all that
research, I think I know wherewe need to go and it's based
upon anecdotal conversationswith customers and so forth.
(16:44):
So where we need to go and it'sbased upon anecdotal
conversations with customers andso forth, so let's move forward
.
That second step, then, isdefining the new brand.
So it's saying what equities dowe want to pull forward?
What are the things that peoplevery proudly say about our
brand that need to continue?
But then how do we define thenew one?
What are our business interests?
Where do we want to go?
What new promise do we want tooffer customers?
(17:06):
What does that strategic plansay about what our growth planks
are going to be in terms ofintroducing a new product or a
new service or growing into newgeographic markets?
And then defining that newbrand, and so that starts with
that promise, and what is ourunique value proposition going
to be toward our customers?
And then, from that, you createa name that defines the new
(17:30):
brand and illustrates whatyou're wanting to achieve.
Then it's the new logo, thevisual identity, the customer
experience.
How is that going to change asa part of this rebranding?
What are we going to ask ouremployees to do that they
haven't done in the past.
And then what's that employeeexperience going to be?
So you kind of stand up thatwhole new brand, you know, as in
(17:51):
step two.
Step three is all the work thatgoes on behind the scenes to
align everything within yourorganization before you go
public, before you tell anybody,um.
So that's.
That's oftentimes training ofemployees, it's setting up new
systems to be able to create adifferent customer experience,
it's updating the website andhaving all the new materials
(18:13):
produced that are going to showyour new brand, your new
marketing for when you go tolaunch.
That's all in that alignmentstage.
And then the fourth step andfinal step is going to market,
launching it out internally,first to make sure that your
customers or your employees areall on board, and then
introducing it to your customers.
(18:34):
And then what is the next yeargoing to look like in terms of
how you're going to market thatnew brand to your customers?
Sometimes, you know, I would sayon average, this is about an 18
month experience, um.
We have a lot of clients thatare trying to condense it down
to nine months, um, and which isa tight turnaround, but it can
(18:55):
be done because everybody'simpatient these days and they
want to realize the value of therebranding as quickly as
possible.
So you know, dependent upon howmuch you invest in time and
energy up front is really a bigdeterminant in terms of how long
it takes for the whole process.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
If done well, a rebrand what would you say the
return on investment looks likefor a company?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So a lot of the research that's been done among
you know business executivesthat have rebranded their
organizations you know it's 80plus percent say you know there
was a return on the value thatwere perceived differently in
the marketplace, which allows usto do business in a different
way and to grow.
It's all about growth andemployees that are engaged in
(19:47):
the new brand and believe thatthere's something different
about the organization.
And you put the three of thosetogether and that's dynamite.
I mean, that's a jetpack foryour organization and how you
can really ignite growth behindit in a way that doing the same
thing over and over again is notgoing to achieve.
(20:09):
So if it's an individual whosays I think I'm stuck, my
business isn't moving the way Iwant to, one of your
considerations should be whatrole does my brand play in that?
And if I'm going to make somechanges to my organization, does
changing the brand too androlling it all under a
(20:30):
rebranding initiative achievethe kind of results that I'm
wanting to get toward?
And you should have very clearmetrics as to what you're going
to measure against in terms ofpre and post rebranding, so that
you can truly say the dollarscontributed to that, that the
effort was worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You're listening to Small Business Pivots.
This podcast is produced by mycompany, boss.
Our business is helping yoursgrow.
Boss offers business loans withbusiness coaching support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
(21:09):
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the
subscribe button and share it aswell.
Now let's get back to ourspecial guest.
I know a lot of listeners maynot be in the position to afford
or invest in a true rebrand, sowhat are some things they can
be doing to get to that point?
(21:31):
In other words, how can theyimprove their brand, kind of
like DIY, do-it-yourself untilthey can afford it?
What are some best practicesthat most businesses should at
least follow on their brand thatthey currently have?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Well, and I think you know you always want to be on
top of what measuring and havekeen line of sight into whether
the brand is working as hard asit should for you.
And that's conversations thatyou're having with clients, with
(22:09):
customers where you see howyou're perceived in the
marketplace by the people thatare doing business with you.
And then the people that aren'tdoing business with you, and
why.
You know why are, why are theychoosing a competitor you know
over you and and that can bedone anecdotally, that can be
you know you equip your, your,your sales team to ask the right
(22:30):
questions, to be able tounderstand those, those kinds of
dynamics, and you bring it backtogether and you know and
collectively look at it andstudy.
You know, is what is our brandto people out there?
It's not, you know.
We know what we're trying toconvey, but what are they
perceiving of our brand?
How are they processing ourbrand?
And is it something we need totinker with?
(22:51):
And that tinkering, then, can bea brand refresh.
It can be just, you know, itcould be a new logo, a new
tagline.
You know an update of yourwebsite that reflects what
you've learned in terms oftrying to make sure that people
are understanding what you wantthem to.
So you know there could be agap between how you're perceived
(23:11):
and what you're wanting to beperceived as, and what can you
do to get closer to that?
Perceived as, that's all shouldbe normal course of business,
you know, for any organization,because you're gonna be working
your tail off and think you'redoing all the right things and
if you, only to find out thatyour brand and the way you're
(23:33):
perceived out in the marketplaceis not what you wanted and
that's why you're banging yourhead against the wall, because
you think you're here and inreality people view you down
here and you got to close thatgap, you know.
So that's a lot of the DIY workthat you should kind of be
doing on an ongoing basis beforeyou decide that you need a
(23:55):
bigger change, like arepositioning or even something
as aggressive as a rebrand.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I know some of the frustration for business owners
are going from agency to agencyand getting two completely
different views.
What does a business owner doin those situations?
Because I've been with somebusiness owners and they feel
like, well, that's justsubjective, that's just their
opinion.
What makes your processdifferent to where it's not an
(24:24):
opinion, it's not subjective,it's.
Here's some facts.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah.
So that's a great question.
And and I, you know, I thinkyou know realize that when you,
if you have a sore back and yougo to a surgeon for you know
there's, you know, saying I havea sore back, what are the
things that we can do?
Well, their solution is surgery, you know.
So.
So, if you go to a firm thatyou know, you know, and you say,
(24:51):
you know I'm having, you know,trouble with my brand, that's
not keeping up, well, their,their solution is going to be
let's do it.
Oh, you got to do this, you gotto go do that.
At the end of the day, it's theresearch, it's the perceptions
that tell you what it is thatyou need to do and what you're
(25:12):
allowed to do in your customers'minds.
And so I'll use it as anexample.
We will do, in any exercisethat we go through, whether we
do a lot of, you know, detailedresearch or not, we will always
say give us a list of 10 of yourcustomers.
We want to talk to themone-on-one and and explore.
You know, what do they think ofyour brand today, what do they
think of your reputation andwhat do they think are the areas
that you're allowed to growinto and why, and I'll never
(25:36):
forget this One client we did.
It was based out of Boston, theywere in the construction
industry, but what they did isprovided the window treatments
and acoustical panels and someof those kinds of products for
new buildings that were beingconstructed and they were
(25:57):
wanting to get out of the placeof being an order taker.
For, you know, just send me 10new blinds to somebody that
would come in and evaluate andsay, okay, the way you built
this building, you got 18 hoursof sunshine coming in here and
your employees are going to becooking because they're going to
be in direct sunlight all daylong.
So you need blinds that aregoing to, you know, have this
(26:19):
kind of you know shading andthey, if they're on automatic,
they're going to come down whenthe sun comes up.
You know there are all sorts ofsolutions.
So much more of a consultativekind of provider to those
building construction companiesthan just ordering, you know,
fulfilling an order for 10blinds.
And so when we talked to theircustomers and said you know how
(26:43):
do they compare against otherpeople that you might order 10
blinds for, they said you know,they've got a showroom that I
can go in and see these things.
They've got people who are, youknow, experts in engineering
and can have a conversation withme about this and help me make
the right decisions.
And so he went back to theclient and said you have a wide
(27:04):
open door here.
You have already earned theplace in customers' minds to be
more of a consultant to them.
You're already kind of doing it.
Now you need to say it more andyou need to show the proof of
what that outcome will be sothat those clients and other
ones in the future can see thetrue value in it.
(27:25):
So only by having those kindsof conversations did we say
let's go, this is going to work,you know it's going to be
terrific and and and then designthe new brand that delivered on
that kind of promise.
So it wasn't like creating apromise that was very real, blue
sky.
It was a promise that customersalready knew they could deliver
(27:46):
upon because of the work thatthey had done with them in the
past.
That's the goal of being inunderstanding what the customer
thinks before you get too farinto this process.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
That's a great answer because I think that answers a
lot of questions.
And if our listeners didn'tpick up on this, is this fair to
say?
If someone just takes yourbrand and runs with it, that's
probably a red flag.
That's why it's subjective.
But if they do research first,communicate with your clients
(28:18):
and your perceived perception inthe public, that could be.
That's factual right.
Is that kind of what you'resaying?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And, and you know.
Talk to the sales team, becausethe sales team is they're,
they're on the front line ofworking with um, with with
customers, and you know, and,and they're.
You know they're the ones thatare prospecting and calling that
.
You know cold calling somebody.
You know.
What are you hearing about, youknow, um, uh, how people
perceive the company and theirwillingness to do work with us.
(28:47):
Talk to the client servicepeople to say you know what are
the challenges you run into anddo your customers feel that you
were resolving those challengesin a timely manner?
And what are they asking you todo that you can't do, you know,
because that's in a sensethey're saying I would be
willing to let you do this ifyou had the product, if you had
the service for it.
(29:08):
So what are they asking you for?
But you're saying I'm sorry, wecan't do that.
So there's a lot of that kindof insight that you can gain in
a very qualitative kind ofstandpoint to really inform what
your brand is, what elasticitydoes it have and what kind of
solution.
(29:28):
You need Somebody that comesflying in from the outside and
throws pretty new logos andcolors up and says you know,
this is what you need to do.
Without that kind of groundingand insight, they're going right
to surgery.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
When they may not need it.
And I will share for becauseI've experienced this with
clients as well.
When they go to an agency, I'mcalling them agencies, but that
could be a marketing firm, itcould be an ad agency.
Whatever it is, if they'regoing there, I assure you, if
they make a promise, a boldpromise, go somewhere else,
(30:05):
because I don't think that abranding you can't control the
markets, you can't controlcustomers, you're just going by
facts.
I'm not a branding expert likeyourself, but I know from our
clients we've worked alongsidewith an agency, with them the
ones that make the bold promisesare the ones that get the worst
outcome or the worst product inreturn.
You know it could be everythingfrom.
(30:27):
You know we can get you 10,000more views on YouTube.
How can you say, how can youguarantee that?
Because you can't, you know notthe right views anyways.
So I just throw that in becausethat's what I've seen with some
of our business owners we workwith.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
And I'll share this.
You know, it sounds like youknow could have a lot of
entrepreneurs with you know itsounds like you could have a lot
of entrepreneurs with you knowgreat ideas and businesses that
they're wanting to stand up.
And we did this eight years agowhen we launched Rebranding
Experts, and we had done a fewrebrandings previously with
another agency that I own and wedid a really good job with them
, you know, but I said to myselfreally good job with them, you
(31:13):
know.
But I said to myself whoa,let's define the whole
methodology that an organizationshould go through here and have
it step-by-step in a verydetailed project management plan
and make sure that everyquestion that needs to be asked
in a rebranding exercise isbuilt into that process so that
you don't get through it andfind out oops, we should have
done this.
(31:33):
We should have done that.
We overguessed, weoverestimated what could happen
here and built out that wholemethodology.
We did research among companiesthat had rebranded not clients
of ours, but companies that weidentified and reached out to
them and said would you bewilling to participate in a
research effort To say what werethe challenges that you faced,
(31:55):
what were the things that youdidn't expect that emerged and
took all those learnings andbuilt it into our methodology so
that when we launched theagency, we could say our
approach is based upon whatrebranded organizations have
gone through.
It's not what we're telling youyou need to do in this bold new
brand.
It's really based upon theexperience that companies have
(32:19):
had and they've told us.
You know, one of the things thatwas very clear is the internal
side of rebranding is muchharder than the external side.
So coming up with that newexperience that you're going to
deliver to customers, definingwhat process procedures are
going to need to be updated, howyour employees are going to be
(32:41):
trained to do that differently,how your leadership is going to
be the cheerleaders that theyneed to be to encourage
employees to deliver againstthat new promise, to inspire
them to be a part of all thisbefore you ever launch, is more
important than what theexternally people are going to
be seeing.
And that's where you see a lotof organizations that will
(33:03):
rebrand and it's kind of likefrosting on the cake.
It's not all they're doing ismaking the product look a little
bit better and you know, andsomething that might engage more
customers.
But then when you go back andyou buy the product.
It's the same old company thatit used to be.
They haven't done anythingdifferently.
And that's where you get thedisappointment then and the
(33:24):
rebranding because like, oh yeah, they just put some lipstick on
the pig.
They didn't really actuallychange themselves.
They're not delivering on apromise.
To me that's different than thepast.
So if you're starting a newbusiness, if you're early in
those first years is make surethat the way you have built your
(33:44):
process is different than whatanybody else is offering out in
the marketplace and you're morelikely to get the customer you
want then, because they're goingto perceive you as being much
more knowledgeable, much moretrustworthy in the whole process
, because it's not just youropinion on what you need to do,
but it's a whole, you know, kindof different framework of
(34:07):
looking at that problem andsolving it.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
You mentioned about 18 months for the.
I don't know the research which, to me, it was the whole
exercise, yeah, and that doesn'tsound very long to me, but as a
coach I know how long it takesto transform a business.
But so branding, if you do itproperly, you're looking at it
about 18 months.
(34:30):
What's the timeframe afterwards?
So if it, the rebranding isdone, right and well.
Six months, nine months, causeyou know, we have a new brand
here.
So just because we have our newbrand doesn't mean everybody's
going to.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, they're not going to come running to it.
You're.
You're going to spend six to,you know, to 12 months after it,
making sure people know thatyou've changed the brand.
And you know cause people.
You know the essence ofcommunications is is repetition,
you know.
So you just got to keeprepeating it.
You know we are now, you know,such and such a company and you
know, for 12 months you're goingto have on your website.
(35:08):
When people go to the website,you're going to make sure that
there's a little disclaimer.
They're saying you know,formally such and such, so that
people say, oh, that's right, itchanged that's.
You know these are the goodpeople I liked.
You know, and and they changedtheir name.
So and you gotta you have toaggressively tell them and show
them through your actions.
Aggressively tell them and showthem through your actions what
(35:28):
that new brand stands for andbring it to life.
And you know day one, you know.
So a perfect example is you knowwe worked with a credit union
in the Southwest.
You know credit unions havealways been named after the
employer group that theyoriginated against and those are
really old and stale soundingnow and they feel very exclusive
(35:52):
to anybody else wanting to dobusiness with them.
So if you're under the name ofGeneral Motors Credit Union,
well, if you don't work forGeneral Motors, you're not going
to go to that credit union.
So a lot of credit unions areneeding to rebrand themselves
right now to be able to berelative to a much larger
customer segment.
So in this case, we said dayone when somebody walks in after
(36:17):
you put up a new sign andyou've told everybody through
your media announcement and youradvertising and your billboards
going up around town that youare now this new organization.
When they walk in the door,something better be different.
They better be greeteddifferently.
There needs to be a newexperience that they're going to
(36:42):
have, the language with whichyour people are talking to them.
Or they're going to say, well,that's really fancy on the
outside, but the inside is stillthe same and I don't feel any
different.
What new programs or services?
You're going to say, well,that's really fancy on the
outside, but the inside is stillthe same and I don't feel any
different.
You know what new programs orservices you're going to offer.
You know, in this particularcase they had a reward program
that they offered to theirlongstanding original members to
make them feel more special and, you know, on a little bit
(37:04):
higher of a pedestal becausethey were there from the start,
and then you could go out andalso market to new customers and
you had to make sure that itwas positioned as to why are we
no longer what we used to be?
Why are we better for you as anoption here?
So it's a very complex effort,you know, and it requires a lot
(37:24):
of leadership across theorganization being included in
changing, transforming theorganization to meet the new
brand.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, that's one of the areas.
This is a subjective opinion,but it's one of those areas.
I would not go with my gut onevery brand.
I would go with the marketresearch because you can really
do a lot of damage if you go atit alone and don't know what
you're doing and go with yourgut versus market research and
(37:55):
doing this comprehensive stuffthat you're talking about.
Is there anything that Ihaven't asked that you're like?
I know from time to time whenI'm on a podcast I'm like I wish
I'd really like to talk aboutthis because this part is so
important.
Is there anything like that Ihaven't covered here?
Speaker 2 (38:09):
You know.
One thing I think would beimportant is to realize if
you're a smaller business, thisis actually an easier process.
You know, rebranding an airlineis a monumental offer, you know
, because you've got to paintplanes with your new logo and
you have to change gate signageand all sorts of different stuff
(38:29):
.
If you're a smaller business,it's going to be easier for you
to go through this processbecause you know who your
customer base is.
You can communicate directly tothem.
You know the prospects thatyou're going after.
You can easily communicate tothem.
You're going to have less whatwe call branded assets, like
signage and materials and soforth, that you have to spend
(38:52):
money updating so you're able tobe a little bit more nimble in
making the change.
And that's why I alwaysencourage entrepreneurs if
you're starting a business forthe first time, spend time
getting the brand right from thebeginning so that you don't
find yourself needing to rebrandvery soon down the road.
(39:13):
And if you are a smallerbusiness and you've been in
business for a while and yourealize you know I didn't spend
as much time working on thebrand from the beginning as I
did setting up the operationsand so forth you're still in a
good place to take advantage ofa brand refresh, a repositioning
or an entire rebrand, becauseit's a less complicated kind of
(39:35):
environment with which toexecute that Entrepreneurs
always fall into a few buckets.
They name the business afterthemselves and then they're
having good success and they'relike starting to think of an
exit strategy and they realizetheir brand is tethered to them
and all of a sudden you're like,okay, this is gonna be a
heavier lift than I thought,because if I'm gonna sell my
(39:56):
business someday and I'm notgonna be a part of it, this name
isn't gonna work anymore.
So solve that for a potentialbuyer in the future, so that it
doesn't become their problem todeal with.
So we're seeing a lot of likedental practices right now.
That used to be you know, drBruce Ogison was the dentist as
(40:17):
a child I used to go to and nowthey're more corporate
businesses that own severalpractices and they're branding
themselves like magnificentsmiles or bright smiles or
things like that.
They're focusing on the outcomeof what you will get from an
experience with them having aterrific set of choppers and a
great smile, as opposed to theperson who doesn't, and so
(40:38):
that's a good example in asmaller business environment,
professional services, how youknow, get ahead and brand on the
outcome of doing work with you,as opposed to you, the person
that's doing the work.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Not to jump on top of that, but I do have an area of
business.
If you're considering abusiness and for some reason the
company name takes them foreverbecause they're trying to be
too creative, if you mow lawns,start with residential lawn
mowing Like people will at leastknow what you do.
(41:11):
You know, versus green skies,plateaus or something you know I
don't.
I see that all the time.
And then they wonder why no onecalls them.
It's like cause they don't knowwhat you do and most people
won't ask.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So uh, and we get a lot of businesses where, you
know, in that exact kind ofthing I started out this is a
very common one in some kind ofhome repair.
So maybe they did plumbing andthen they added electrical and
then they added, you know, HVACand so forth, but they still
their brand is still associatedwith plumbing.
(41:47):
Yeah, and they're like how dowe get out of this now?
Because they're not giving usthe chance, because they
perceive us as the, you know, asjust doing plumbing and that's
a rebrand.
Then, where you need to, yourservices have broadened, your
brand needs to broaden out andyou need to go through the study
of what's the best way to dothat.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
That's a great example.
Thanks for sharing A lot ofthose.
I know a lot of listeners areprobably just like how do I
learn more?
What's the best way to find youon the internet, social media,
all those channels?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
So rebranding expertscom and we have have it
loaded with a lot of resources,um, uh, stories that I write for
Forbes.
You can find on there videos,that kind of dive into the
process and so forth, and thenfollow me on LinkedIn, jim
Heininger.
You can follow the business onLinkedIn.
Rebranding Experts probably themost active social channel
(42:41):
we're on, but certainly therefor Facebook Instagram as well
too.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Okay, great, fantastic.
Well, I always end with ageneral question.
If you were in front of anaudience of small business
owners different sizes,different industries what's one
thing that's applicable to allof them?
It could be an insight, a quote, a book, anything that kind of
helps them have a voice of hope.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Well, and I, you know I'm always going to bring it
back to you know is keepattention on your brand.
You know I'm always going tobring it back to.
You know, is keep, keepattention on your brand.
You know, and, and, and.
Don't be afraid, if your brandisn't right to, to make changes
to it.
You know, it seems like such asacrificial cow to some people
it's.
You know I can't touch that, Ican't do that.
(43:25):
Sure you can, yeah, you knowyou.
So be the business problemsolver that you're, you're,
you're you set yourself up to be, and make sure that that's
something you keep an eye on andthat it's working as absolutely
hard as it can for yourbusiness.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Are you open to questions?
If anybody has any, absolutelyyeah.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Shout to you.
Yeah, and you can email me atjim at rebrandingexpertscom.
Happy to respond.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Fantastic.
Well, I encourage our listenersto do just that, because
branding either creates businessor loses business, in my
opinion.
So, jim, I appreciate it.
You've been a wealth ofinformation and a blessing to
many.
Thank you for listening toSmall Business Pivots.
This podcast is created andproduced by my company, boss.
(44:12):
Our business is growing yours.
Boss offers flexible businessloans with business coaching
support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the
subscribe button and share it aswell.
(44:33):
If you need help growing yourbusiness, email me at michael at
michaeldmorrisoncom.
We'll see you next time onSmall Business Pivots.
All right, welcome to another Small Business Pivots.
Today we have another specialguest from around the world and
I know only the business ownercan introduce themselves and
their company like they can.
So I'm going to let youintroduce yourself.
Tell us a little bit about youand your company.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Branding Experts, which is a very specialized
agency that focuses on helpingorganizations or businesses that
need to go through a brandtransformation from a beginning
to end kind of process to beable to achieve the phenomenal
outcomes that rebranding canhelp bring an organization Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
That's.
I know a lot of businessescould use that, because I know,
just driving down the streetfrom time to time I'll see a
vehicle and I'm going.
Okay, I don't even know what youdo Like that was a waste of a
car wrap because you just putyour name and it doesn't even
make sense.
So, yeah, this is this will begood.
So, listeners, buckle up.
(01:02):
We're going to introduce theshow real quick and we'll be
right back.
Welcome to Small BusinessPivots, a podcast produced for
small business owners.
I'm your host, michael Morrison, founder and CEO of BOSS, where
we make business ownershipsimplified for success.
Our business is helping yoursgrow.
(01:22):
Boss offers business loans withbusiness coaching support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours.
Atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
Jim, I know a lot of our smallbusiness owners have gone
through trials and tribulationsfrom time to time in their life.
(01:44):
I know most of our listenersknow by now that I was an
introvert, had to overcome that,anything like that that you
went through, because I know alot of business owners learn
from other business owners andhow you maybe overcame it.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, I think you know it's the lesson of
perseverance.
So you know as long a career asI've had, there are ups and
downs.
Perseverance so you know aslong a career as I've had there
are.
There are ups and downs.
There are times when perhaps Iwas in an organization, working
with an organization, where yousaid this just isn't right, this
just isn't working out right,and the kind of strength to be
able to say that and say I thinkwe need to take a time out.
(02:18):
It's better for both of us, youknow to to move on in different
directions.
So that's probably the that'sprobably the thing that several
times in my career have had theopportunity to experience.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Wow, yeah, there are a lot of people stuck and I know
even some of our listeners arenot quite business owners yet.
They're what I callentrepreneur wannabes.
You know they've been thinkingabout this for years and they're
just stuck.
So perseverance and being ableto move on and get uncomfortable
(02:51):
is a big thing.
Anything that maybe helped youkind of overcome that and pull
the trigger.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
You know it really comes down to that confidence in
your core, you know, andbelieving in yourself.
And you know if somethingdoesn't feel right for you, then
there's probably it's your gutstelling you something.
Listen to it.
So I think it's you know, it'sthat ability to to you know.
You all know what it feels likewhen things are working well.
(03:19):
So when something's not workingwell, then it feels different
and really kind of diving in,questioning yourself, asking all
the things, getting to theheart of it and then being able
to communicate that to whoeveryour business partner is, your
client, your customer, and beable to say you know, this is
how I feel, how are you feeling?
And usually it's a mutual kindof agreement then that let's
(03:42):
move forward in differentdirections kind of agreement
then that let's move forward indifferent directions.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Wow, that's, that's powerful and very helpful.
You mentioned somethingcommunicate and I know with
branding that's really what itis is communicating who you are,
what you do, that all kinds ofgood stuff and the vehicles I
was kind of mentioning earlierliterally have the faces of the
owner on the trucks.
I've seen these trucks aroundso they probably have maybe a
dozen of the box trucks.
(04:11):
I know who the owners arebecause they're very clear on
the side of the vehicle with thecompany name, but I can't find
what they do.
So communication is big in thebranding world, so we're going
to help a lot of people.
So, with you being the expertin this, is there a particular
place you want to start?
(04:31):
Do you want to start from startto end, or are there places you
where do you want to go withthis to help?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, and I think let's let's just turn out was
what is branding, and you knowwhat does it mean?
Because if you're going torebrand, that means you're going
to start anew, you're going tobuild a new brand.
So what is that brand?
In the very beginning, and Ialways like to encourage people
to think of it's not your name,it's not your logo.
The brand is the total set ofexperiences that a customer has
(04:58):
with your organization.
So it could be a name.
That's good or not.
It could be the trucks they seerolling down the street with
your image on them, and so forth.
It could be when you hire them.
What's the experience like?
How do you relate to thecustomer?
When the customer has a problem, how is it dealt with?
(05:19):
All those things feed into thatbigger picture of what your
brand is.
All those things feed into thatbigger picture of what your
brand is, and I always encouragepeople to remember.
You try to control the brand foryour company.
You try to position it the wayyou want it to and communicate
it the way you want it to.
At the end of the day, thebrand sits in the customer's
mind and that's where it really.
(05:40):
You know how you see that it'sall those experiences,
everything rolled in togetherand do they have a favorable
impression of your brand or anegative one?
So are they going to choose todo business with you again in
the future, or are they going tochoose to go to a competitor?
So keep that in mind whenyou're thinking about branding,
because branding is all aboutdifferentiating.
(06:01):
It's all about making sure thatpeople understand what is
unique about you, about yourcompany, about the service that
you offer, and how it's betteror a better match than what your
competitors are offering.
So brand sits in the mind andbranding is about
differentiation, so that you canreally make sure to embed it in
(06:23):
everything that you do.
Differentiation so that you canreally make sure to embed it in
everything that you do.
So that's kind of the startingpoint.
So then, if you think ofrebranding, which is what we
specialize in, that's when yourealize the brand I have is not
doing as good a job for me as itshould.
It's not working hard enough.
It's perhaps anchoring me toperceptions of my business that
(06:45):
I don't want people thinkingabout anymore.
Maybe you've grown beyond theoriginal service that you
offered, or your products areavailable in new outlets or new
services that they were in thepast.
Or maybe you've growngeographically and so you've got
a brand that's very centric toa geographic locale where you
(07:08):
started.
But now that's kind of ananchor, it's weighing you down
and you want to look at theoption of rebranding, which
would mean standing up anentirely new brand for the
organization.
That is much moreforward-facing, that totally
encompasses all the work thatyou do now and maybe what you
may add to your services in thefuture as well.
(07:30):
Maybe it defines a biggercustomer group than you
originally had and so it kind ofuntethers you from the past and
allows you to move forwardaggressively in the future.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
So I hear a lot of people say they're rebranding,
but from what you're saying,they're not really rebranding
because they got a new logo.
They say I'm getting my logoredesigned and that's not what
you're talking about, is it?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
No, no, let me break out kind of three levels of the
way we think about it, becausethese are all very viable
strategies that you can pursue.
And then rebranding will be thelast example, which is the more
comprehensive one, becausethese are all very viable
strategies that you can pursue.
And then rebranding will be thelast example, which is the more
comprehensive one.
So organizations all the timewill refresh their brand and a
(08:16):
brand refresh is really more ofa visual makeover of your brand
to make it look fresher, moremodern, attract some news and
excitement to your brand.
So that might mean changingyour logo, updating your logo.
It might mean a new websitethat's got a new color palette
and maybe some new messaging,but it's really more visually
(08:37):
oriented to bring a new level ofexcitement to your brand.
We see those all the time.
Sports teams constantly arechanging kind of their
merchandise, you know, at thestart of a new season to make it
look more exciting and to sella lot more of the new stuff than
they did in the past.
So we see brand refreshes allthe time.
The next step up from that iswhen you would reposition your
(09:01):
brand and that would be whereyou recognize that the way
you're being perceived is toolimiting and it doesn't reflect
fully the direction that you'rewanting to go in terms of the
products that you're offering,the services that you're
offering.
So you would define a newcustomer audience, you would
kind of update your brandpromise to be more reflective
(09:24):
and more inclusive of the newmarkets you're going to the new
geographic areas that maybeyou're wanting to expand into.
We see brand repositionings allthe time in the retail
marketplace.
So some very visible ones thateverybody probably has seen some
evidence of is Victoria'sSecret.
So three or four years ago theysaid, okay, everybody's
(09:47):
perceiving us as being themodels on the runway shows and
so forth, and that wasn't veryinclusive of a whole huge
segment of women who were ofdifferent body shapes and sizes
that weren't buying theirproducts in the past because
they were perceived as beingthat perfect runway model kind
of look.
So they changed the sizings,they changed the styles of some
(10:11):
of their products and so forthto be more inclusive and they
started to use otherspokespeople that were
representative of thatinclusivity.
Even Megan Rapone, the soccerstar you know who's, you know
lesbian who is not is trying toimpress her man, kind of in what
lingerie she's wearing.
It was a whole way to open up anew marketplace by
(10:33):
repositioning themselves thatway.
Now it's still kind of in playand it's still working three or
four years later and they'restill tinkering with that brand
repositioning because some waysit hasn't worked, some ways that
they're still trying to fix it,so to speak.
Another retail brandrepositioning was Abercrombie
Fitch.
Once again, they used all thosesexy models of young teenagers
(10:55):
or the boys with their shirtsoff, ripped abs, all that kind
of stuff, and a lot of peopleweren't buying their products
because they said that's not me,I don't see myself in that
brand.
So they changed the products,they changed the marketing and
were able to be more inclusiveand bring in new customers that
they previously weren't able tocapture.
(11:18):
Again, both of those examplesare all about growth.
It's all about how are we goingto strategically grow our brand
and our business.
Repositioning was the answerthere.
Then, on top of that, you haverebranding, which is when you're
standing up an entirely newbrand.
Re, you know, is the prefix,means to start anew.
(11:38):
So you're not tinkering withwhat you have as much as what.
You are recreating an entirelynew brand, and this is where you
would change the name of yourorganization as well, too, to
better portray to your customerswhat you do for them, what is
the outcome of having anexperience with your brand.
And then you would also add tothat the repositioning and the
(12:02):
refreshing, so it's the totalpackage much more comprehensive
kind of effort.
And you don't see this as often,because it's a heavier lift and
a heavier investment for abusiness to do.
And you have to do it right,because you have to make sure
that it's built upon your pastand the equities of your current
brand but define yourself in anew way that customers are going
(12:24):
to say I love it and newcustomers are going to say I
want to be a part of that.
So when we look at rebranding,some of the examples that we see
a lot oftentimes they come frommergers or acquisitions, where
you've got two companies thatare coming together and you're
having to make some branddecisions, and sometimes you say
(12:44):
we're going to go with a biggerbrand, the more well-known
brand, or sometimes people saywe're going to create an
entirely new brand thatencompasses both companies that
have come as part of this merger, this acquisition.
The one that people probablyidentify with most in recent
years is the introduction ofMeta as being the parent company
(13:05):
, first thing that I thought of.
Yeah of Facebook.
So if you look at thatsituation, facebook was clearly
defined as a social mediaplatform and it was carrying a
lot of baggage.
This is back in the days whenpeople were criticizing Facebook
a lot, that it was exposingyoung people to things they
shouldn't be seeing.
It had some ulterior motivesthat people didn't like and they
(13:29):
strategically wanted to growtheir business into that whole
kind of virtual reality spaceand said this is more than
Facebook, this is a whole newbusiness venture that we're
wanting to introduce and we wantto own it from the beginning.
So we want to coin a term, themetaverse which they could own,
(13:50):
and then a brand name which putthem out in front of anybody
else that was in this market.
So they introduced meta astheir corporate brand name, so
not replacing Facebook, but tobe the bigger brand name so that
they could then more easilyprogress their virtual reality
business lines.
And it left behind Facebook andthe baggage that it was
(14:13):
carrying and it didn't taintmeta.
Then they kind of cleared anice clean space for them to be
able to go into that new metauniverse and their products
there, for them to be able to gointo that new meta universe and
their products there Now.
Is it being successful?
Is always a question people aregoing to talk about.
You know it left behindFacebook to do its own business.
(14:34):
How successful they've been inthe virtual reality thing a lot
of different analysts withdifferent opinions on it, but a
clear example on how, if you arestuck or you're not, if you
have a brand that doesn'tnecessarily answer what you're
wanting to do in terms of yourstrategic growth, then a rebrand
might be the answer to enableyou to do that.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
You talked about a comprehensive approach to
rebranding, to rebranding, andwe've worked as a business coach
, we've worked alongside withsome businesses that rebranded,
and they were completelydifferent experiences, you know,
cause I guess everyone kind ofhas their own point of view of
how it should be done.
But from your lens, how longdoes that comprehensive approach
(15:20):
look like?
Like what do you do?
For instance, one of ourclients they did a deep dive
into everything market space,everything and the other one,
not quite so much.
So on your opinion, kind of,what does that look like?
So a company knows what toexpect when you say
comprehensive.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, and we, you know.
So we've got a four-stepprocess that we, that we follow
that big or small, you know, orhow aggressive they want.
Four-step process that wefollow that big or small, you
know, or how aggressive theywant to get into the effort.
There's still pieces of it thatyou need to do, and the first
step of that is really it'sassessing your current brand.
So what is your currentbusiness?
What does that brand stand for?
How do your customers perceiveit?
What attributes do they give tothe brand, and so forth?
(16:01):
So that you know where you'restarting from, do they give to
the brand, and so forth?
So that you know where you'restarting from.
And oftentimes companies willdo a great deal of research to
determine how much flexibilitycustomers will give them to
change the brand or whether theyneed to rebrand.
So can we reposition it or dowe need to rebrand to be able to
(16:23):
achieve our business objectiveshere?
The second step, then, and sothat's where you know some
companies will do a lot ofresearch to have a very clear
understanding of that.
Others will say you know what,I got a gut feel for what it's
like and I might not have theresources to do all that
research, I think I know wherewe need to go and it's based
upon anecdotal conversationswith customers and so forth.
(16:44):
So where we need to go and it'sbased upon anecdotal
conversations with customers andso forth, so let's move forward
.
That second step, then, isdefining the new brand.
So it's saying what equities dowe want to pull forward?
What are the things that peoplevery proudly say about our
brand that need to continue?
But then how do we define thenew one?
What are our business interests?
Where do we want to go?
What new promise do we want tooffer customers?
(17:06):
What does that strategic plansay about what our growth planks
are going to be in terms ofintroducing a new product or a
new service or growing into newgeographic markets?
And then defining that newbrand, and so that starts with
that promise, and what is ourunique value proposition going
to be toward our customers?
And then, from that, you createa name that defines the new
(17:30):
brand and illustrates whatyou're wanting to achieve.
Then it's the new logo, thevisual identity, the customer
experience.
How is that going to change asa part of this rebranding?
What are we going to ask ouremployees to do that they
haven't done in the past.
And then what's that employeeexperience going to be?
So you kind of stand up thatwhole new brand, you know, as in
(17:51):
step two.
Step three is all the work thatgoes on behind the scenes to
align everything within yourorganization before you go
public, before you tell anybody,um.
So that's.
That's oftentimes training ofemployees, it's setting up new
systems to be able to create adifferent customer experience,
it's updating the website andhaving all the new materials
(18:13):
produced that are going to showyour new brand, your new
marketing for when you go tolaunch.
That's all in that alignmentstage.
And then the fourth step andfinal step is going to market,
launching it out internally,first to make sure that your
customers or your employees areall on board, and then
introducing it to your customers.
(18:34):
And then what is the next yeargoing to look like in terms of
how you're going to market thatnew brand to your customers?
Sometimes, you know, I would sayon average, this is about an 18
month experience, um.
We have a lot of clients thatare trying to condense it down
to nine months, um, and which isa tight turnaround, but it can
(18:55):
be done because everybody'simpatient these days and they
want to realize the value of therebranding as quickly as
possible.
So you know, dependent upon howmuch you invest in time and
energy up front is really a bigdeterminant in terms of how long
it takes for the whole process.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
If done well, a rebrand what would you say the
return on investment looks likefor a company?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So a lot of the research that's been done among
you know business executivesthat have rebranded their
organizations you know it's 80plus percent say you know there
was a return on the value thatwere perceived differently in
the marketplace, which allows usto do business in a different
way and to grow.
It's all about growth andemployees that are engaged in
(19:47):
the new brand and believe thatthere's something different
about the organization.
And you put the three of thosetogether and that's dynamite.
I mean, that's a jetpack foryour organization and how you
can really ignite growth behindit in a way that doing the same
thing over and over again is notgoing to achieve.
(20:09):
So if it's an individual whosays I think I'm stuck, my
business isn't moving the way Iwant to, one of your
considerations should be whatrole does my brand play in that?
And if I'm going to make somechanges to my organization, does
changing the brand too androlling it all under a
(20:30):
rebranding initiative achievethe kind of results that I'm
wanting to get toward?
And you should have very clearmetrics as to what you're going
to measure against in terms ofpre and post rebranding, so that
you can truly say the dollarscontributed to that, that the
effort was worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You're listening to Small Business Pivots.
This podcast is produced by mycompany, boss.
Our business is helping yoursgrow.
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Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
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(21:09):
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the
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Now let's get back to ourspecial guest.
I know a lot of listeners maynot be in the position to afford
or invest in a true rebrand, sowhat are some things they can
be doing to get to that point?
(21:31):
In other words, how can theyimprove their brand, kind of
like DIY, do-it-yourself untilthey can afford it?
What are some best practicesthat most businesses should at
least follow on their brand thatthey currently have?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Well, and I think you know you always want to be on
top of what measuring and havekeen line of sight into whether
the brand is working as hard asit should for you.
And that's conversations thatyou're having with clients, with
(22:09):
customers where you see howyou're perceived in the
marketplace by the people thatare doing business with you.
And then the people that aren'tdoing business with you, and
why.
You know why are, why are theychoosing a competitor you know
over you and and that can bedone anecdotally, that can be
you know you equip your, your,your sales team to ask the right
(22:30):
questions, to be able tounderstand those, those kinds of
dynamics, and you bring it backtogether and you know and
collectively look at it andstudy.
You know, is what is our brandto people out there?
It's not, you know.
We know what we're trying toconvey, but what are they
perceiving of our brand?
How are they processing ourbrand?
And is it something we need totinker with?
(22:51):
And that tinkering, then, can bea brand refresh.
It can be just, you know, itcould be a new logo, a new
tagline.
You know an update of yourwebsite that reflects what
you've learned in terms oftrying to make sure that people
are understanding what you wantthem to.
So you know there could be agap between how you're perceived
(23:11):
and what you're wanting to beperceived as, and what can you
do to get closer to that?
Perceived as, that's all shouldbe normal course of business,
you know, for any organization,because you're gonna be working
your tail off and think you'redoing all the right things and
if you, only to find out thatyour brand and the way you're
(23:33):
perceived out in the marketplaceis not what you wanted and
that's why you're banging yourhead against the wall, because
you think you're here and inreality people view you down
here and you got to close thatgap, you know.
So that's a lot of the DIY workthat you should kind of be
doing on an ongoing basis beforeyou decide that you need a
(23:55):
bigger change, like arepositioning or even something
as aggressive as a rebrand.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I know some of the frustration for business owners
are going from agency to agencyand getting two completely
different views.
What does a business owner doin those situations?
Because I've been with somebusiness owners and they feel
like, well, that's justsubjective, that's just their
opinion.
What makes your processdifferent to where it's not an
(24:24):
opinion, it's not subjective,it's.
Here's some facts.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah.
So that's a great question.
And and I, you know, I thinkyou know realize that when you,
if you have a sore back and yougo to a surgeon for you know
there's, you know, saying I havea sore back, what are the
things that we can do?
Well, their solution is surgery, you know.
So.
So, if you go to a firm thatyou know, you know, and you say,
(24:51):
you know I'm having, you know,trouble with my brand, that's
not keeping up, well, their,their solution is going to be
let's do it.
Oh, you got to do this, you gotto go do that.
At the end of the day, it's theresearch, it's the perceptions
that tell you what it is thatyou need to do and what you're
(25:12):
allowed to do in your customers'minds.
And so I'll use it as anexample.
We will do, in any exercisethat we go through, whether we
do a lot of, you know, detailedresearch or not, we will always
say give us a list of 10 of yourcustomers.
We want to talk to themone-on-one and and explore.
You know, what do they think ofyour brand today, what do they
think of your reputation andwhat do they think are the areas
that you're allowed to growinto and why, and I'll never
(25:36):
forget this One client we did.
It was based out of Boston, theywere in the construction
industry, but what they did isprovided the window treatments
and acoustical panels and someof those kinds of products for
new buildings that were beingconstructed and they were
(25:57):
wanting to get out of the placeof being an order taker.
For, you know, just send me 10new blinds to somebody that
would come in and evaluate andsay, okay, the way you built
this building, you got 18 hoursof sunshine coming in here and
your employees are going to becooking because they're going to
be in direct sunlight all daylong.
So you need blinds that aregoing to, you know, have this
(26:19):
kind of you know shading andthey, if they're on automatic,
they're going to come down whenthe sun comes up.
You know there are all sorts ofsolutions.
So much more of a consultativekind of provider to those
building construction companiesthan just ordering, you know,
fulfilling an order for 10blinds.
And so when we talked to theircustomers and said you know how
(26:43):
do they compare against otherpeople that you might order 10
blinds for, they said you know,they've got a showroom that I
can go in and see these things.
They've got people who are, youknow, experts in engineering
and can have a conversation withme about this and help me make
the right decisions.
And so he went back to theclient and said you have a wide
(27:04):
open door here.
You have already earned theplace in customers' minds to be
more of a consultant to them.
You're already kind of doing it.
Now you need to say it more andyou need to show the proof of
what that outcome will be sothat those clients and other
ones in the future can see thetrue value in it.
(27:25):
So only by having those kindsof conversations did we say
let's go, this is going to work,you know it's going to be
terrific and and and then designthe new brand that delivered on
that kind of promise.
So it wasn't like creating apromise that was very real, blue
sky.
It was a promise that customersalready knew they could deliver
(27:46):
upon because of the work thatthey had done with them in the
past.
That's the goal of being inunderstanding what the customer
thinks before you get too farinto this process.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
That's a great answer because I think that answers a
lot of questions.
And if our listeners didn'tpick up on this, is this fair to
say?
If someone just takes yourbrand and runs with it, that's
probably a red flag.
That's why it's subjective.
But if they do research first,communicate with your clients
(28:18):
and your perceived perception inthe public, that could be.
That's factual right.
Is that kind of what you'resaying?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And, and you know.
Talk to the sales team, becausethe sales team is they're,
they're on the front line ofworking with um, with with
customers, and you know, and,and they're.
You know they're the ones thatare prospecting and calling that
.
You know cold calling somebody.
You know.
What are you hearing about, youknow, um, uh, how people
perceive the company and theirwillingness to do work with us.
(28:47):
Talk to the client servicepeople to say you know what are
the challenges you run into anddo your customers feel that you
were resolving those challengesin a timely manner?
And what are they asking you todo that you can't do, you know,
because that's in a sensethey're saying I would be
willing to let you do this ifyou had the product, if you had
the service for it.
(29:08):
So what are they asking you for?
But you're saying I'm sorry, wecan't do that.
So there's a lot of that kindof insight that you can gain in
a very qualitative kind ofstandpoint to really inform what
your brand is, what elasticitydoes it have and what kind of
solution.
(29:28):
You need Somebody that comesflying in from the outside and
throws pretty new logos andcolors up and says you know,
this is what you need to do.
Without that kind of groundingand insight, they're going right
to surgery.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
When they may not need it.
And I will share for becauseI've experienced this with
clients as well.
When they go to an agency, I'mcalling them agencies, but that
could be a marketing firm, itcould be an ad agency.
Whatever it is, if they'regoing there, I assure you, if
they make a promise, a boldpromise, go somewhere else,
(30:05):
because I don't think that abranding you can't control the
markets, you can't controlcustomers, you're just going by
facts.
I'm not a branding expert likeyourself, but I know from our
clients we've worked alongsidewith an agency, with them the
ones that make the bold promisesare the ones that get the worst
outcome or the worst product inreturn.
You know it could be everythingfrom.
(30:27):
You know we can get you 10,000more views on YouTube.
How can you say, how can youguarantee that?
Because you can't, you know notthe right views anyways.
So I just throw that in becausethat's what I've seen with some
of our business owners we workwith.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
And I'll share this.
You know, it sounds like youknow could have a lot of
entrepreneurs with you know itsounds like you could have a lot
of entrepreneurs with you knowgreat ideas and businesses that
they're wanting to stand up.
And we did this eight years agowhen we launched Rebranding
Experts, and we had done a fewrebrandings previously with
another agency that I own and wedid a really good job with them
, you know, but I said to myselfreally good job with them, you
(31:13):
know.
But I said to myself whoa,let's define the whole
methodology that an organizationshould go through here and have
it step-by-step in a verydetailed project management plan
and make sure that everyquestion that needs to be asked
in a rebranding exercise isbuilt into that process so that
you don't get through it andfind out oops, we should have
done this.
(31:33):
We should have done that.
We overguessed, weoverestimated what could happen
here and built out that wholemethodology.
We did research among companiesthat had rebranded not clients
of ours, but companies that weidentified and reached out to
them and said would you bewilling to participate in a
research effort To say what werethe challenges that you faced,
(31:55):
what were the things that youdidn't expect that emerged and
took all those learnings andbuilt it into our methodology so
that when we launched theagency, we could say our
approach is based upon whatrebranded organizations have
gone through.
It's not what we're telling youyou need to do in this bold new
brand.
It's really based upon theexperience that companies have
(32:19):
had and they've told us.
You know, one of the things thatwas very clear is the internal
side of rebranding is muchharder than the external side.
So coming up with that newexperience that you're going to
deliver to customers, definingwhat process procedures are
going to need to be updated, howyour employees are going to be
(32:41):
trained to do that differently,how your leadership is going to
be the cheerleaders that theyneed to be to encourage
employees to deliver againstthat new promise, to inspire
them to be a part of all thisbefore you ever launch, is more
important than what theexternally people are going to
be seeing.
And that's where you see a lotof organizations that will
(33:03):
rebrand and it's kind of likefrosting on the cake.
It's not all they're doing ismaking the product look a little
bit better and you know, andsomething that might engage more
customers.
But then when you go back andyou buy the product.
It's the same old company thatit used to be.
They haven't done anythingdifferently.
And that's where you get thedisappointment then and the
(33:24):
rebranding because like, oh yeah, they just put some lipstick on
the pig.
They didn't really actuallychange themselves.
They're not delivering on apromise.
To me that's different than thepast.
So if you're starting a newbusiness, if you're early in
those first years is make surethat the way you have built your
(33:44):
process is different than whatanybody else is offering out in
the marketplace and you're morelikely to get the customer you
want then, because they're goingto perceive you as being much
more knowledgeable, much moretrustworthy in the whole process
, because it's not just youropinion on what you need to do,
but it's a whole, you know, kindof different framework of
(34:07):
looking at that problem andsolving it.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
You mentioned about 18 months for the.
I don't know the research which, to me, it was the whole
exercise, yeah, and that doesn'tsound very long to me, but as a
coach I know how long it takesto transform a business.
But so branding, if you do itproperly, you're looking at it
about 18 months.
(34:30):
What's the timeframe afterwards?
So if it, the rebranding isdone, right and well.
Six months, nine months, causeyou know, we have a new brand
here.
So just because we have our newbrand doesn't mean everybody's
going to.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, they're not going to come running to it.
You're.
You're going to spend six to,you know, to 12 months after it,
making sure people know thatyou've changed the brand.
And you know cause people.
You know the essence ofcommunications is is repetition,
you know.
So you just got to keeprepeating it.
You know we are now, you know,such and such a company and you
know, for 12 months you're goingto have on your website.
(35:08):
When people go to the website,you're going to make sure that
there's a little disclaimer.
They're saying you know,formally such and such, so that
people say, oh, that's right, itchanged that's.
You know these are the goodpeople I liked.
You know, and and they changedtheir name.
So and you gotta you have toaggressively tell them and show
them through your actions.
Aggressively tell them and showthem through your actions what
(35:28):
that new brand stands for andbring it to life.
And you know day one, you know.
So a perfect example is you knowwe worked with a credit union
in the Southwest.
You know credit unions havealways been named after the
employer group that theyoriginated against and those are
really old and stale soundingnow and they feel very exclusive
(35:52):
to anybody else wanting to dobusiness with them.
So if you're under the name ofGeneral Motors Credit Union,
well, if you don't work forGeneral Motors, you're not going
to go to that credit union.
So a lot of credit unions areneeding to rebrand themselves
right now to be able to berelative to a much larger
customer segment.
So in this case, we said dayone when somebody walks in after
(36:17):
you put up a new sign andyou've told everybody through
your media announcement and youradvertising and your billboards
going up around town that youare now this new organization.
When they walk in the door,something better be different.
They better be greeteddifferently.
There needs to be a newexperience that they're going to
(36:42):
have, the language with whichyour people are talking to them.
Or they're going to say, well,that's really fancy on the
outside, but the inside is stillthe same and I don't feel any
different.
What new programs or services?
You're going to say, well,that's really fancy on the
outside, but the inside is stillthe same and I don't feel any
different.
You know what new programs orservices you're going to offer.
You know, in this particularcase they had a reward program
that they offered to theirlongstanding original members to
make them feel more special and, you know, on a little bit
(37:04):
higher of a pedestal becausethey were there from the start,
and then you could go out andalso market to new customers and
you had to make sure that itwas positioned as to why are we
no longer what we used to be?
Why are we better for you as anoption here?
So it's a very complex effort,you know, and it requires a lot
(37:24):
of leadership across theorganization being included in
changing, transforming theorganization to meet the new
brand.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, that's one of the areas.
This is a subjective opinion,but it's one of those areas.
I would not go with my gut onevery brand.
I would go with the marketresearch because you can really
do a lot of damage if you go atit alone and don't know what
you're doing and go with yourgut versus market research and
(37:55):
doing this comprehensive stuffthat you're talking about.
Is there anything that Ihaven't asked that you're like?
I know from time to time whenI'm on a podcast I'm like I wish
I'd really like to talk aboutthis because this part is so
important.
Is there anything like that Ihaven't covered here?
Speaker 2 (38:09):
You know.
One thing I think would beimportant is to realize if
you're a smaller business, thisis actually an easier process.
You know, rebranding an airlineis a monumental offer, you know
, because you've got to paintplanes with your new logo and
you have to change gate signageand all sorts of different stuff
(38:29):
.
If you're a smaller business,it's going to be easier for you
to go through this processbecause you know who your
customer base is.
You can communicate directly tothem.
You know the prospects thatyou're going after.
You can easily communicate tothem.
You're going to have less whatwe call branded assets, like
signage and materials and soforth, that you have to spend
(38:52):
money updating so you're able tobe a little bit more nimble in
making the change.
And that's why I alwaysencourage entrepreneurs if
you're starting a business forthe first time, spend time
getting the brand right from thebeginning so that you don't
find yourself needing to rebrandvery soon down the road.
(39:13):
And if you are a smallerbusiness and you've been in
business for a while and yourealize you know I didn't spend
as much time working on thebrand from the beginning as I
did setting up the operationsand so forth you're still in a
good place to take advantage ofa brand refresh, a repositioning
or an entire rebrand, becauseit's a less complicated kind of
(39:35):
environment with which toexecute that Entrepreneurs
always fall into a few buckets.
They name the business afterthemselves and then they're
having good success and they'relike starting to think of an
exit strategy and they realizetheir brand is tethered to them
and all of a sudden you're like,okay, this is gonna be a
heavier lift than I thought,because if I'm gonna sell my
(39:56):
business someday and I'm notgonna be a part of it, this name
isn't gonna work anymore.
So solve that for a potentialbuyer in the future, so that it
doesn't become their problem todeal with.
So we're seeing a lot of likedental practices right now.
That used to be you know, drBruce Ogison was the dentist as
(40:17):
a child I used to go to and nowthey're more corporate
businesses that own severalpractices and they're branding
themselves like magnificentsmiles or bright smiles or
things like that.
They're focusing on the outcomeof what you will get from an
experience with them having aterrific set of choppers and a
great smile, as opposed to theperson who doesn't, and so
(40:38):
that's a good example in asmaller business environment,
professional services, how youknow, get ahead and brand on the
outcome of doing work with you,as opposed to you, the person
that's doing the work.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Not to jump on top of that, but I do have an area of
business.
If you're considering abusiness and for some reason the
company name takes them foreverbecause they're trying to be
too creative, if you mow lawns,start with residential lawn
mowing Like people will at leastknow what you do.
(41:11):
You know, versus green skies,plateaus or something you know I
don't.
I see that all the time.
And then they wonder why no onecalls them.
It's like cause they don't knowwhat you do and most people
won't ask.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So uh, and we get a lot of businesses where, you
know, in that exact kind ofthing I started out this is a
very common one in some kind ofhome repair.
So maybe they did plumbing andthen they added electrical and
then they added, you know, HVACand so forth, but they still
their brand is still associatedwith plumbing.
(41:47):
Yeah, and they're like how dowe get out of this now?
Because they're not giving usthe chance, because they
perceive us as the, you know, asjust doing plumbing and that's
a rebrand.
Then, where you need to, yourservices have broadened, your
brand needs to broaden out andyou need to go through the study
of what's the best way to dothat.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
That's a great example.
Thanks for sharing A lot ofthose.
I know a lot of listeners areprobably just like how do I
learn more?
What's the best way to find youon the internet, social media,
all those channels?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
So rebranding expertscom and we have have it
loaded with a lot of resources,um, uh, stories that I write for
Forbes.
You can find on there videos,that kind of dive into the
process and so forth, and thenfollow me on LinkedIn, jim
Heininger.
You can follow the business onLinkedIn.
Rebranding Experts probably themost active social channel
(42:41):
we're on, but certainly therefor Facebook Instagram as well
too.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Okay, great, fantastic.
Well, I always end with ageneral question.
If you were in front of anaudience of small business
owners different sizes,different industries what's one
thing that's applicable to allof them?
It could be an insight, a quote, a book, anything that kind of
helps them have a voice of hope.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Well, and I, you know I'm always going to bring it
back to you know is keepattention on your brand.
You know I'm always going tobring it back to.
You know, is keep, keepattention on your brand.
You know, and, and, and.
Don't be afraid, if your brandisn't right to, to make changes
to it.
You know, it seems like such asacrificial cow to some people
it's.
You know I can't touch that, Ican't do that.
(43:25):
Sure you can, yeah, you knowyou.
So be the business problemsolver that you're, you're,
you're you set yourself up to be, and make sure that that's
something you keep an eye on andthat it's working as absolutely
hard as it can for yourbusiness.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Are you open to questions?
If anybody has any, absolutelyyeah.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Shout to you.
Yeah, and you can email me atjim at rebrandingexpertscom.
Happy to respond.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Fantastic.
Well, I encourage our listenersto do just that, because
branding either creates businessor loses business, in my
opinion.
So, jim, I appreciate it.
You've been a wealth ofinformation and a blessing to
many.
Thank you for listening toSmall Business Pivots.
This podcast is created andproduced by my company, boss.
(44:12):
Our business is growing yours.
Boss offers flexible businessloans with business coaching
support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the
subscribe button and share it aswell.
(44:33):
If you need help growing yourbusiness, email me at michael at
michaeldmorrisoncom.
We'll see you next time onSmall Business Pivots.
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