July 23, 2025 • 43 mins
Every website click is a chance to win a new customer — but are you actually converting those visitors into paying clients?
In this episode, we sit down with Trevor Levine, founder of Marketing Experts and a direct response copywriting powerhouse since 1998. Trevor has spent decades helping businesses transform lukewarm website traffic into loyal buyers — without spending a dime more on ads.
Trevor breaks down the biggest conversion killers and reveals what really drives people to say “yes” to your offer. He shares why action-driven verbs beat fluffy adjectives every time, how to craft offers that build instant trust and urgency, and the secrets behind "better than risk-free" guarantees that boost conversions while protecting your bottom line.
You’ll learn:
✅ How to build sales pages that guide browsers smoothly toward the “buy” button
✅ The right time to reveal your price (hint: it’s later than you think)
✅ How conditional guarantees and decoy pricing lead prospects to choose your premium options
✅ Strategies to slash cart abandonment with smart checkout page copy
✅ Why testimonials with real names and tangible results outperform generic praise
✅ Why AI can help you draft — but only your human insight can make it truly persuasive
From his own journey building and selling a six-figure monthly business to helping countless others, Trevor’s no-nonsense, psychology-driven approach will inspire you to rethink your website, your offers, and your entire sales strategy.
Ready to turn your website into a non-stop sales machine? Visit marketingexperts.com to claim your free 30-minute sales copy critique — no strings attached.
🎧 Tune in and learn how to convert more visitors into happy, paying customers — without spending more on ads.
Trevor Levine: Founder & CEO of Marketing Experts
Website: https://marketingexperts.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrtrevorlevine/
#BusinessGrowth #WebsiteConversions #SalesCopy #DirectResponseMarketing #HighConverting #SmallBusinessMarketing #CopywritingTips #DigitalMarketing #IncreaseSales #TurnClicksIntoCustomers #TrevorLevine #MarketingExperts #BusinessStrategy #BusinessSuccess #EntrepreneurTips #GrowYourBusiness #SmallBusinessPivots #BOSS #BOSSBusiness #BusinessOwnershipSimplified #MichaelMorrison #BusinessCoach #OklahomaCity
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome to another special Small Business
(00:03):
Pivots podcast.
Today we have another specialguest from around the world and
if you've listened to ourpodcast before, you know that
the only person that can saytheir name and their business is
the business owner.
So I'll let you have the floorto introduce yourself, your
business, where you're from andjust a little bit about you.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
you have the floor to introduce yourself your
business, where you're from andjust a little bit about you.
Sure, hi everyone.
I'm Trevor Levine with theMarketing Experts Our website's
marketingexpertscom.
I live in Oakland, california.
I work with people all over theworld.
And a little bit about myself.
So I started writing directresponse copy in 1998.
And in 2009, I started my owncompany, which I scaled to six
(00:51):
figure months and sold in 2017.
At which point I went back tomy original profession of
helping people improve theirconversion rates on sales pages.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Fantastic rates on sales pages Fantastic.
So with our small businessowner listening group, how do
you think we're going to bestserve them?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
today.
What do you think they'll takeaway from this?
So I'm betting your listenersspend a lot of time, effort or
money driving traffic to a page.
It may be their website, it maybe a funnel, it may be an
opt-in page.
Once you get people to thatpage, you want to convert as
many as possible, right yeah?
So that's what I help with and,once they hit that page,
(01:35):
maximizing the percentage ofpeople that become paying
customers or clients.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Fantastic.
Well, I encourage everybody tobuckle up because I'm sure we're
going to learn a lot today.
We'll introduce the show realquick and we'll be right back.
Welcome to Small BusinessPivots, a podcast produced for
small business owners.
I'm your host, michael Morrison, founder and CEO of BOSS, where
we make business ownershipsimplified for success.
Our business is helping yoursgrow.
(02:06):
Boss offers business loans withbusiness coaching support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
All right, welcome back toSmall Business Pivots.
We talk with business ownerswho have scaled businesses, and
(02:29):
you brought it up before theshow introduction, so let's talk
about that real quick.
Share how you did it, whathappened, the good, the bad, the
ugly.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So let's start back in around what was the year?
Maybe the year 2000, 2001.
Besides being obviously havinga profession as a direct
response copywriter, I had apassion let's say a labor of
love and I wanted to supportpeople on a vegan diet.
So I built a website calledveganrecipescom, got indexed in
(03:03):
the top 10 when people searchedfor vegan recipes and over the
next eight years, I think about30,000 people found the site
organically and joined my emaillist to get vegan recipes.
So in 2009, I said you know, Ireally want to do something with
this, and at that time,membership sites were starting
(03:26):
to become more common, morepopular, and so I decided to
offer a one-year program, whichI called the Vegan Mastery
Program.
Also, I had one for vegetarianscalled the Vegetarian Mastery
Program, and so I did a JeffWalker-style launch.
He was one of my mentors and Ithink we got about 400 students
(03:50):
in the first week.
Wow, from there built it tothousands of students and, um,
by the time, I sold the companyin 2017.
Of course, along the way, I hadto build a team right, had to
have people taking care ofcustomer service and bookkeeping
and affiliate management andyou know all the things web
design.
And in 2017, I got to a pointwhere I, due to real estate
(04:17):
investments that did really well, I didn't really need the
income from that anymore anddidn't want the stress anymore.
Didn't really need the incomefrom that anymore and didn't
want the stress anymore.
So I decided to sell thecompany and return to offering
my services as a direct response, copywriter and conversion
expert.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
What kind of stress?
And then we'll move into theconversion.
What kind of stress did youexperience?
Because I know a lot ofbusiness owners ask us from time
to time as business coaches.
They'll say am I the messiestbusiness you've ever seen?
And I'm like absolutely not.
So what kind of challengesstress did you go through?
Just so people know, it doesn'tmatter what size of business,
(04:56):
how long you've had the business, we all go through something.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Let me let me share a couple of successes first, if
that's okay, and then I'll sharesome of the stresses.
Yeah Well, one of the now I amnot a doctor or a dietician,
okay, so I acted more like apublisher, where I contracted
doctors and registereddieticians and people like that
to provide content, and one ofmy other strengths is obviously
(05:21):
creating pages that sell.
Strengths is obviously creatingpages that sell, and so, where
they had the expertise, myexpertise was on getting
converting visitors intocustomers and, as one example,
we made a video sales letterthat helped to sell a $1.2
(05:42):
million of this course that Italked to you about.
Wow, and because we're goingstraight from free subscriber to
a course that was about $200,$200 to $500, depending on which
tier.
I worked with Ryan Dice for alittle while.
He's also one of my mentors andhe said you know what you're
(06:11):
missing, trevor, is a tripwire.
You need to have something forlike seven or ten dollars to
offer the subscribers right awayso you can over deliver and
convince them that they thatthey can trust you Right.
So so we offer.
We made a video sales letter tooffer one of the lessons in our
course, but without therequirement to pay a couple
hundred dollars or get on amonthly subscription, and that
video sales letter converted9.1% of new opt-in subscribers
(06:35):
into paying customers.
So those are a couple ofexamples of things that we did.
Well, yeah, incredible Stressors.
You know when you're, when youhave a team, you're relying on
other people, some of who mighthave the same judgment as you,
some might have better judgmentand some might have different
judgment.
That's a good way to put itDifferent.
(06:57):
Yeah, so there was one timewhen we were doing we were
getting ready for a big launchand my programmer had to put our
cart in test mode to make suresome things were working.
He forgot to take it off testmode on the day of the launch.
So I don't know the first, Idon't even remember the number,
but there were a lot of newcustomers who made the purchase,
(07:18):
got access to the membershipcontent, and yet we didn't get
any money.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I cannot even imagine a golden opportunity that turns
sour, you know, because we'renot making anything.
So well, let's talk about whatyou do today.
So what is it that MarketingExperts actually does On your
website?
It says turn more of yourvisitors into customers and
clients without spending more onads.
(07:44):
So let's talk.
Let's start there first, andthen I think we have a set of
questions that's been given tous to visit.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
So you may be using paid ads, or you may be driving
traffic with affiliates, or youmay be using organic methods.
Regardless of how you'regetting people to your page.
Once they get there, my job isto maximize your conversion rate
, not only on your sales page orit could be a sales video but
also on your checkout page.
There are a lot of mistakesthat people make when creating
(08:15):
the copy for sales pages.
Would you like me to share afew of those right now?
Absolutely so.
One of them is over relying onadjectives instead of verbs, for
example, you might say this isthe most innovative,
groundbreaking method sincesliced bread, and this just
comes across as bragging andhyperbole.
(08:37):
It's not really that effectivein increasing your conversion
rate.
What's better is to focus onverbs, because verbs are
benefits.
For example, stop wasting timeon technical minutia.
Automate 70% of your workload.
Spend more quality time withyour family.
You see how every one of thosestarts with a verb.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Listeners you've already got some takeaways here,
and we haven't really even gotstarted to the meat and potatoes
of the show, so let's keepgoing.
So, when visitors come to awebsite, what makes them put off
their buying decisions?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So a lot of companies or small businesses make the
mistake of just describing theirproduct or program or service
and assuming that's enough.
A description of what you sellis not an offer.
So one of the ways that I helppeople is to develop an offer
that's compelling and createsurgency.
For example, I'll give you anexample.
(09:38):
I just mentioned that we pulledout this one lesson from our
course and offered it for $7.
The offer was hey, normally youwould have to pay a couple
hundred dollars to have accessto this lesson or get on a
monthly subscription, but for alimited time we're letting you
buy it without that biggercommitment.
That was the offer.
An offer can also be only thenext, so many customers will get
(10:03):
a bonus or a discount.
Obviously, it can be a 14 or 30day trial.
We had that as well a $1 14 daytrial.
It can be a trade in offer.
If you sell something physical,like Apple or Verizon may offer
that trade in your old phone.
Right, switch to Verizon andyou'll get this.
(10:24):
You'll get a discount or aspecial offer.
Another thing I just helped aclient with a couple months ago
they've been doing an annualsummit for 14 years and so
they've done a lot of splittesting and really gotten their
sales page to as good as theythought it could be, and one of
the ways that it helped themthis year was to increase the
(10:46):
gap between free and paid, andthis again, this falls under the
umbrella of offer development.
What is the offer?
Why should people pay the $67for recordings when they're
already able to watch them orlisten to them for free?
You're familiar with thesekinds of summits, right?
Yeah?
So of course, you know everyonesays, well, you'll get the
(11:07):
recordings, you can listenforever.
But, yeah, sure, but that's notso competitive.
That's what everyone offers.
So what can we do that'sdifferent, better and more
valuable.
So one thing I suggested was,instead of just letting people
be part of a community forumwith all the free registrants
(11:27):
for eight days, which is thelength of the summit, why don't
we have a special private forumwhere they can get support for
60 days?
That's just for the people thatpay for the recordings and
create more of a privatecommunity.
So they added that we did acouple of other things as well.
Oh, I know what it was.
They mentioned to me thatthey've done a lot of video
(11:49):
interviews and pulled only 20%of the content to create the
episodes of the summit.
But they weren't making a bigpoint about the fact that when
you pay $67, now you'll get theother 80% of the content.
You'll get the completeinterviews instead of just
excerpts or highlights.
So, again, we improve the offerby harping on the fact that
(12:11):
you'll get the other 80% of thecontent and you'll get support
in this private community for 60days.
So that's another way toimprove an offer we hear a lot
about guarantees, but apparentlyguarantees don't increase sales
.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Can you explain maybe why or how to fix that?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, sure, so hopefully, at the very minimum,
you're offering money back ifsomeone's not satisfied.
But again, that's really notcompetitive because that's the
baseline, that's what's expected.
If what you want to do isincrease conversion rates, then
you need to reverse the riskbetter than just you can get
(12:56):
your money back.
And there's a few ways you cando that.
And first of all, let me saythat a big problem with the
guarantee is a lot of times it'sburied at the bottom of the
sales page.
Don't bury it.
Feature it.
Make a big point of the factthat people have to be happy and
get the results you'repromising, or they don't pay.
What makes that even better isto have a promise, a time frame
(13:20):
and the risk reversal.
So an example of that would bereturn to your natural body
weight in 60 days, whereeverything you've downloaded is
yours free.
Let's say you've got a videocourse and some downloadable
PDFs.
So what you're promising isthat if, in 60 days, they
haven't returned to theirnatural body weight, you may
(13:43):
shut off the videos if they askfor a refund, but you can let
them keep the PDFs.
And so what you're doing isyou're promising them a
guaranteed gain, no matter whatthey decide.
That's reversing the risk.
Another thing I advise thecompany that sells plant
fertilizer is to let customersknow that if their plants don't
(14:04):
grow bigger and faster than everbefore, they can send back the
empty container and a photo ofthe plant that they fertilized
right?
This is what's called aconditional guarantee.
So you're protecting yourselfby making a little bit harder
for people to get the refund.
You know, obviously they stillcan and you can still promise in
(14:26):
your headline and in your adsyour plants will grow bigger and
faster than ever before, or youdon't pay because you are
offering that, but they have todo a little bit of work of
sending back the empty containerand showing you a photo.
Let's say you have a coachingprogram with eight sessions.
You can offer a better thanrisk-free guarantee.
(14:47):
Like you know, if you get tothe end of this and don't get
the results I've promised, youcan get a refund.
But the condition is you haveto submit homework by midnight
every Monday for eightconsecutive weeks, and the
homework might be a worksheetthat you provide that takes some
time and effort to fill out.
So this allows you in youroffer and in your ads to say
(15:11):
you'll get this result in eightweeks or you don't pay and
there's a condition to protectyou.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You may or may not know the answer to this, and
that's okay, because it is offthe cuff.
And that is how many people, orwhat percentage, do you think
actually asks for the guarantee?
Do you know what that is?
If not, it's okay.
In other words, how many peopleactually?
I didn't get anything and dothis.
I wouldn't think it would bevery many, because most people
(15:39):
forget they had a guarantee.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Well, it depends on the price.
You know, if you're selling a$17 book, no one's going to
bother, especially if it'sconditional.
You know you might say yourbook has five chapters and every
chapter has some homework atthe end.
So you say, just show us thehomework that you did and we'll
give you double your money back.
So how many people are going towhen they already didn't do the
homework?
They're going to go to all thattrouble just to get 17 plus
(16:03):
another 17 back.
So how many people are going towhen they already didn't do the
homework?
They're going to go to all thattrouble just to get 17 plus
another 17 back.
No, it's important to deliver aproduct that really can provide
the results you're promising.
Okay, you don't want to befooling people when your product
or service can't do that andit's fair to expect them to do
(16:25):
the necessary steps to make ithappen, right?
So if you've got a coachingprogram, they have to do some
work, right?
It might be that they fill outthe homework and send it every.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Monday.
So about decoy pricing?
What is it?
How can it increase yourcustomer value?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Great question.
So we use this with theVegetarian Health Institute, the
company I founded.
And so this is where typicallyyou have three price points and
you have two where the pricesare very close to each other but
the more expensive one offersso much more that it makes that
(17:03):
one seem like a better value oreven like a deal.
Because if you just have oneprice point, people don't know
what to compare it to.
They're not sure is this a goodvalue.
But if you have two pricepoints at least, like basic and
deluxe, then they can comparethem to each other and see which
one feels like a better valueoverall.
(17:24):
Right, if you're saying for $87, you get the basic and for 97,
you get the deluxe, which has amillion more features, it's
pretty obvious to buy the deluxe, right In our case.
So we had a 1997 a month program, $49.97 and $59.97.
(17:46):
And the $49.97 was the decoy.
So the $49.97 offered some morethan you would get for $19.97 a
month, but not nearly as muchas the $59.97 program.
With the most expensive programyou would actually be able to
earn a certificate by taking anopen book exam after each of 50
(18:07):
lessons and if you passed allthe exams, or when you passed
all the exams you get acertificate and for a lot of
people that's a big deal to beable to say I got a certificate.
So for them, you know, to spendan extra $10 a month, you know,
versus $49.97, really was ano-brainer and hardly anybody
(18:29):
bought the intermediate pricepoint because the value was so
much greater for a smallincrease.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
We've talked about specific questions.
What are some of the commonmistakes?
You're listening to SmallBusiness Pivots.
This podcast is produced by mycompany, Boss.
Our business is helping yoursgrow.
Boss offers business loans withbusiness coaching support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
(18:57):
as 24 to 48 hours atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the
subscribe button and share it aswell.
Now let's get back to ourspecial guest.
We've talked about specificquestions.
(19:18):
What are some of the commonmistakes that hurt conversion?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
sales Okay.
So one of them is let's say, onyour sales page you got a
headline, you got a couple ofopening paragraphs and then you
put a link to your checkout page.
That's a headline.
You got a couple of openingparagraphs and then you put a
link to your checkout page.
That's a mistake.
Well, it depends on the price ofyour product.
If it's $17, it might be okay,but if it's $97, if it's a few
hundred dollars, if it's a fewthousand dollars, it's critical
(19:40):
that you establish the value ofwhat you're selling and overcome
objections before you letpeople know what the price is.
That's why video sales lettershave been really popular in some
markets.
One of the main benefits ofvideo sales letters is that
there's no way somebody can seethe price until they've watched
a certain amount of the video.
(20:01):
It might be 20, 25 minutes, andthat's on purpose.
That's to make sure that theydon't go and look at the price
and say, oh, that's tooexpensive and then just abandon
your page is to make sure thatthey really get all of the
reasons why this is differentand better than any other
solution and they really feelagitation around the costs, the
(20:26):
pains and problems that they'regoing to keep living with if
they don't solve their problemor if they choose the wrong
solution, and that you overcometheir objections.
All that has to be done beforeyou reveal the price.
Now, it's okay to have aregular sales page instead of a
video, but if you do, make surethat you wait until you've shown
you've really established allthese things and mentioned your
(20:48):
guarantee and shown testimonialswith with success stories,
before you let people go to yourcheckout page.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
You mentioned testimonials.
Why aren't those working likethey used to?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Oh, I don't think it's.
I don't think it's a differenceof now and before.
I think it's just a differenceof lame testimonials versus
compelling testimonials.
That's always been a problem,yeah yeah, yeah, we.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I know of a influencer on LinkedIn and you
can scroll for about 10 minuteson his landing page and nine and
a half minutes is testimonials.
It's the weirdest thing.
It goes forever on testimonials.
So can you?
Can you talk about thetestimonials being lame or not
(21:38):
and how to get those better?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Absolutely yes.
So let's say, you gave me atestimonial and it said Trevor
is a really great conversionexpert and he met our deadline.
That's not very compelling.
Right now I'm working on asales page for a company that
sells air filters and they havea lot of testimonials.
(22:02):
One of the ones I looked atsaid something like we live in
Los Angeles and there's a lot ofwildfire smoke here and when we
run your air filter we sleepeasier at night, knowing that
it's protecting our air.
But again, for me that's not agreat testimonial because it
does not describe a result thatthe person got, a result that
(22:29):
the person got going from inthis case, going from having
ailments or symptoms to havingrelief from those ailments or
symptoms.
Or, in my case, you know, if youwere to come to
marketingexpertscom, all thetestimonials talk about results.
Trevor increased our conversionrate by this percent or that
percent or tripled our response,whatever it might be, those are
the kinds of testimonials thatyou want, ones that show the
results.
Also, it's important thattestimonials be believable.
(22:53):
If you only have a first nameor first name and last initial,
that's not as believable ashaving a full name, and a full
name is not as believable ashaving a full name with a city
and state.
Or if you're selling toentrepreneurs, it might be
better to have a full name withtheir title and their company
name.
Now you've got a morebelievable testimonial, because
(23:17):
people sometimes imagine thatyour testimonials might be
fabricated, and the more you cando to make it believable, the
better.
Might be fabricated, and themore you can do to make it
believable, the better.
The most believable are videotestimonials or screenshots of
reviews that you got onindependent sites like Yelp,
trustpilot or your Facebook page.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
I know a lot of people go on websites and one of
the common challenges I hearfrom especially e-commerce sites
is people go to the checkoutand then they abandon their cart
.
Anything you can help us withon that part?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, sure.
So, as I mentioned before, makesure you don't link people to
the checkout page too soon.
But in addition, you want todon't assume that just because
people went to the checkout pagenow they're convinced and
they're going to make a purchasewhen they get there.
They're still waffling and it'sa real help if you can show
again the testimonials with theheadshots.
(24:15):
Show again an image of thedeliverables that they're going
to receive.
Other things you want to put onthere restate your risk
reversal.
Remind them that they havenothing to lose and everything
to gain.
For example, in the example Igave earlier, return to your
natural body weight in 60 daysor you pay nothing and
(24:37):
everything you've downloaded isyours free.
Make sure that all that stuffis on the checkout page so if
they're still waffling on thecheckout page, so if they're
still waffling, they arereassured of all the reasons
they originally clicked throughto your checkout page.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
So do you work or do you have, the marketing company
that builds the websites, or doyou work with website companies?
I mean, how does this worktogether?
Do you provide copy for thewebsites or how does the process
work?
Yeah, good question.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I provide the copy and suggested formatting in
Google Doc, and I've got acouple of web designers I work
with that I recommend, of course, if you have your own, you know
, so much the better.
But these designers are greatand they've done stuff for me
and for my other clients so Itrust them Because it really is
(25:31):
about.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
As I browse through your website, you've got
different color text, you've gotsome bold, you've got some
italic, and it really is aboutthe placement right, the
features, what people's eyes aredrawn to, I guess as much as
the actual words, like the verbsyou were talking about earlier.
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
I wouldn't say that design is my expertise, so you
might get better answers from aweb designer.
It's kind of like I know itwhen I see it.
Most of the times the pagedesign for desktop looks okay,
but what I find more common isthe problem is the mobile
version, where whatever softwarethe person's using whether it's
(26:18):
WordPress or high level orShopify or something else when
it's on mobile the imagesobviously get rearranged in how
they appear relative to the copy, and sometimes there's too much
white space between sections.
Sometimes the images get shrunkin a way that doesn't look good
(26:38):
.
So part of what I do is, oncethe designer has made the
desktop and mobile versions, Ilook it over and give the client
suggestions on what I thinkcould make it better.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Do you do the copy for different mediums, so in
other words direct mail,business cards, videos, I mean,
what all can you provide thecopy for?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Well, you wouldn't need me for business cards.
I'm overqualified for that.
You should only hire me if yourgoal is to have people buy
something after they read what Iwrite.
So that's probably not abusiness card.
Mostly I do sales pages andvideo sales letters.
Also I help with checkout pages.
I've done email campaigns.
(27:25):
For example, a Weber who youmay know hired me to improve
their follow-up email sequence.
In the past I've also done backin the day.
You know I started in 1998.
I did a lot of direct mail.
I did magalogs, but most of myclients today are doing online
stuff.
So that's my orientation now.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
How does the process work?
So, if someone does have a webdesigner or agency that they're
using, is it the copy first oris it the design first?
I mean, how does that worktogether?
I mean, or is it a combination?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
That's an excellent question.
I don't think I've been askedthat.
Well, if you already have awebsite and a logo, then
hopefully you already havecolors that represent your brand
and maybe a font right, there'scertain look and feel things on
your site.
I would recommend that when youmake a landing page and by a
font right, there's certain lookand feel things on your site I
would recommend that when youmake a landing page and, by the
way, one thing I didn't mentionearlier is anytime you're
(28:23):
driving people to a page whereyou want them to buy something,
there should be no internalnavigation, there should be no
way for them to go, click aroundand see other pages on your
website.
So this is one of the thingsthat makes a landing page or a
sales page different than aregular website page.
You don't want them to go andget lost in your website, right?
(28:45):
You want them to just have onething to do, which is read your
offer and make a decision.
Okay, so going back to yourquestion.
Okay so, going back to yourquestion.
So let's say your colors areblue and gold and your font is
Helvetica I don't know, I'm justmaking that up.
So yeah, on the landing page orsales page, which you might do
(29:07):
in funnel software likeClickFunnels or GoHighLevel, or
it could be in WordPress.
You'd want to have the samecolors, the same font, the same
look and feel, but I don't seeany way you can really design
that page until I give you thecopy, because that'll define
where there's going to be atable, where there's going to be
columns, where there's going tobe subheads, where the
(29:30):
guarantee goes in a big box, andyou know, at that point you
take that to your designer orone of the designers I work with
, and have them show them yourexisting site, your existing
colors, your logo, and have themcreate a sales page that is
aligned with your current brand.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
You said that was a question you've never been asked
and I feel a little guiltyasking that because I have a
little bit of experience in themarketing world.
One of my companies previouscompanies I exited in 2019, one
of the services that we offeredwas printing, and we printed a
lot of direct mail and we alwayshad it was kind of one of those
(30:09):
the chicken or the egg andbecause we would have a postcard
that somebody wanted to sendout, an oversized postcard, you
know, five by eight or sevenwhatever.
And the content writer were likeyou can't write a letter to
grandma, like they would give usthis long copy, and we're like
we're only dealing with this, somuch space.
And and then they're like well,you know, it was never a matter
(30:32):
, it was always a problem if youhad two different agencies
competing, for you know thesales side and the actual design
side.
So AI is a big deal right nowand I know a lot of people are
using it for copy and content.
Can you, in your space, kind ofshare what weaknesses,
(30:55):
challenges, strengths that AIcan bring to the table and what?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
are some things that people are using it for that is
hurting them more, even thoughthey think it's helping.
Okay, good questions.
So one thing that AI can helpyou with is let's say that you
help with weight loss.
What is the way that you helpwith that?
Because there's a lot of ways.
There's diet shakes, there'saerobics classes or videos,
(31:28):
there's meal plans.
Let's say that you sell mealplans as your solution.
You can go into AI and say whatare the advantages of losing
weight with meal plans insteadof diet shakes or pills or
aerobics classes or videos, andit'll give you some pretty good
differences that you can use inyour copy.
But now the question is why isyour meal plan different and
better than all the other mealplans?
(31:49):
Ai cannot answer that, becauseonly you know the answer to that
question.
It can't search the web or itsdatabase and get answers about
your meal plan, because you'rethe one who created it, and so
this goes to your unique sellingproposition.
(32:17):
It's really essential that youmake it really clear what are
the advantages the uniqueadvantages to your solution in
this case, a meal plan versusall the other meal plans, not
just all the other lose weightsolutions, and so that's one
area that I work with clients onis developing if they're not
clear on it yet the uniqueselling proposition, developing
the offer, developing theguarantee.
The offer and guarantee areother places where AI can make
(32:39):
suggestions, but it can't makedecisions for you.
If you just offer a normalmoney back guarantee and you say
to AI, what should I do toimprove my guarantee, it can
give you a bunch of ideas, butultimately you have to make that
decision.
Give you a bunch of ideas, butultimately you have to make that
decision.
So I guide clients on choosing,making the best decision based
(33:01):
on what's helped my past clientsthe most.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Do you feel taking AI a step further?
Do you feel it's hurting orhelping people that?
Let's say, because I see allthese promises of prompts on
social media, like we had for$9.99, you can buy all these
prompts.
I've seen some of them that saywrite me as a marketing
director, write me a compellingoffer for blah blah, blah, blah
(33:26):
blah, and it spits out whatyou're talking about.
But do you know the differencebetween authentic, which is you,
versus AI?
Is that helping or hurtingpeople using that type of
software?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, the prompts are really important, and I think
it's fine to buy prompts fromsomebody, because the prompts
ask you questions and you're theone who's going to answer the
questions.
So that's in your voice, right?
It's your style, it's yourvalues it's about.
It's your style, it's yourvalues, it's your brand, and so
it'll take the answers youprovide and turn it into
something.
(34:01):
Um, what I found is that a lotof what it turns it into sounds
kind of cliche.
Um, it sounds like what youwould read on everybody else's
website or brochure, and so atat that point, you've still got
to go in there and massage it orrevise it, and sometimes the
(34:21):
language that it comes up with.
Let me put it this way Howevermany words you have on the sales
page, you want to get the mostbang for your word, right.
You don't want to waste anywords or sentences just saying
something like we're sure thatyou'll be very happy with this
(34:42):
decision.
That doesn't add anything, butAI would write that into your
copy.
So you get the point right.
You want to comb out all thefluff and all the stuff that
sounds the same as whatcompetitors would say and make
sure that the copy that's inyour sales page.
(35:03):
Every sentence is somethingthat really compels the person
to want to read further, to wantto solve their problem, to feel
that they can trust you andthat they're not taking a risk.
And you know, by itself, whatAI turns out will not, you know,
will not achieve that goal.
It does need human interaction.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I agree, and there's still a lot of business owners
that are new to AI, and forthose that are at the time and I
say this for a reason at thetime of this recording AI is
currently all it's doing isintertwining, pulling together
all the information.
Whatever you ask it to do, orfor it's pulling information in,
(35:51):
it doesn't really have a brain,and I know a lot of business
owners don't.
They don't know what, where itgets that information.
They just think it's smart andI'm just saying this as an
educational for our listeners.
If you're not, you know, aisavvy.
It's getting, it's pullinginformation that's already out
there and turning it intosomething that you're asking for
(36:14):
, and, and so I want to kind ofshare that, because that kind of
goes along with what you'resaying of it still needs that
human element.
It can't answer questions foryou.
It can pull an answer together,but it doesn't have a brain
like a human does.
So very cool.
Well, I guarantee that you'vepiqued the interest of a lot of
(36:34):
listeners.
How is the best way to followyou for more information?
Do you have anything they cango get?
I see on your website you havea free critique button to click
on.
Can you share a little bitabout some of those things.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, sure, If you're interested in finding out how
your copy could be improved, youcan run with these ideas that
I've shared today.
You can also come tomarketingexpertscom and when you
fill out the form, we'll giveyou a free 30-minute critique
there's no obligation, there'sno cost and just show you areas
on your sales copy that haveroom for improvement and make
(37:11):
some suggestions as to what youcan do instead.
At that point you know you cantake the critique and you can
run with it yourself.
But it's also a way for us toget to know each other and see
if we would be a good fitworking together.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Speaking of good fit, what types of businesses is a
good fit for you?
Size-wise, industry-wise?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I would say about half of my clients sell
information.
So membership sites, courses,conferences, things like that.
I've also worked with aninsurance agent to sell a lot
more policies.
I've worked with a REMAX agentwho was teaching other real
estate agents how to sell morehomes.
So he did a weekend conferenceand the Magalog I created for
(37:56):
him sold out his conference inlike two days.
$250,000 in revenue in two daysWow yeah.
And the insurance agent madelike $450,000 on his first
mailing of the letter.
So those are some examples.
Currently writing copy for airfilters, for water filters.
(38:18):
I've done summits, I've donehypnotherapy, I've done sexual
arousal cream, I've donenutritional supplements.
So there's a big gambit there.
So I like working with smallerbusinesses.
You know, two to 12 employees,maybe 15.
It's not really the number ofemployees that matters to me,
(38:39):
it's being able to work directlywith the owner or president or
somebody that really understandsthe product or service or
program and can answer thequestions that I'm going to need
to ask in order to do the bestjob to ask in order to do the
best job, is this something thatpeople work with you ongoing,
(39:00):
or do they usually send you aproject and then you fulfill it?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
How does that work?
I'm trying to get a sense ofaffordability for businesses.
You don't have to give me anumber of how much it costs, but
just so someone has an idea ofyeah, I could invest in that.
I've got enough revenue forthat, because not everybody's a
fit.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Of course, sure.
So it really depends on howmuch traffic you already have
coming to your site or how bigyour email list is or your
following.
So it depends on you know.
Do you have the ability to senda lot of traffic there?
Are you already getting a lotof traffic, or do you already
have a big email list or someother avenue?
(39:39):
Perhaps it's affiliates?
Some of the people I work withhave a huge network of
affiliates, so when they do alaunch, they're getting tens or
hundreds of thousands of newemail subscribers.
But you could start with a freecritique and we can see where
we go from there.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Is there a social channel that you're on A?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
social channel, mainly LinkedIn.
Yeah, it's Mr Trevor Levine.
Mr Trevor Levine.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Fantastic.
Well, I usually ask is thereanything that I didn't ask today
, that you're like?
I really need to mention thisalso?
I don't think so.
You covered a lot of bases,covered it All right.
Well, then I have one finalquestion, and that is if you
were in front of a group ofbusiness owners different sizes,
different seasons of businesswhat's one thing that could be
(40:30):
applicable to all of them?
It could be a tip, a quote, abook, anything that can help
them move their business forward.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
I found growing my company that it was really
important to delegate.
Actually, even before that Iwas already.
I had an office assistant to domy bookkeeping and other admin
work.
I had a cleaning lady.
So and I still do and the thingof it is, there's two types of
tasks that I think it'simportant to delegate.
(41:01):
One is work that you can sub outfor 25 bucks an hour or
something around there, right,If your time is worth 100 an
hour, 250 an hour, somethinghigher, whatever it might be,
there's no reason for you to bedoing $25 an hour work that you
could have been delegating.
So, free up your time so you caneither do more billable hours
(41:24):
or you can do the kind of workthat's going to create more
revenue and grow your company.
The other kinds of tasks are ifthere's something that requires
expertise you don't have.
So if I want to create acontract, like when I was
selling my company, obviously Ihad a contract with the buyer I
didn't try to make the contractmyself.
I hired a lawyer, and I hopethat if you have an important
(41:47):
contract, that you will alsohire a lawyer and not do it
yourself.
Just the same, if when it comesto improving conversion rates
on sales pages.
Unless you're a trained directresponse advertising copywriter,
then you should be delegatingthat as well, because, just like
with hiring a lawyer, this isan expertise that you don't
(42:10):
currently have.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Well said.
I encourage and preach andcoach that all the time.
If you're not an expert in thatarea of your business, delegate
it.
Go find somebody that can do it, because the time it takes you
to do it or figure out how to doit, you're going to do it wrong
anyways or not, as well as aprofessional.
(42:33):
So delegate those tasks.
So thank you so much.
Well, you've been a wealth ofinformation, a blessing to many.
I wish you continued successand thank you again for being on
Small Business Pivots andproduced by my company, boss.
Our business is growing yours.
(42:55):
Boss offers flexible businessloans with business coaching
support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours.
Atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the
subscribe button and share it aswell.
If you need help growing yourbusiness, email me at michael at
(43:17):
michaeldmorrisoncom.
We'll see you next time onSmall Business Pivots.
All right, welcome to another special Small Business
(00:03):
Pivots podcast.
Today we have another specialguest from around the world and
if you've listened to ourpodcast before, you know that
the only person that can saytheir name and their business is
the business owner.
So I'll let you have the floorto introduce yourself, your
business, where you're from andjust a little bit about you.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
you have the floor to introduce yourself your
business, where you're from andjust a little bit about you.
Sure, hi everyone.
I'm Trevor Levine with theMarketing Experts Our website's
marketingexpertscom.
I live in Oakland, california.
I work with people all over theworld.
And a little bit about myself.
So I started writing directresponse copy in 1998.
And in 2009, I started my owncompany, which I scaled to six
(00:51):
figure months and sold in 2017.
At which point I went back tomy original profession of
helping people improve theirconversion rates on sales pages.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Fantastic rates on sales pages Fantastic.
So with our small businessowner listening group, how do
you think we're going to bestserve them?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
today.
What do you think they'll takeaway from this?
So I'm betting your listenersspend a lot of time, effort or
money driving traffic to a page.
It may be their website, it maybe a funnel, it may be an
opt-in page.
Once you get people to thatpage, you want to convert as
many as possible, right yeah?
So that's what I help with and,once they hit that page,
(01:35):
maximizing the percentage ofpeople that become paying
customers or clients.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Fantastic.
Well, I encourage everybody tobuckle up because I'm sure we're
going to learn a lot today.
We'll introduce the show realquick and we'll be right back.
Welcome to Small BusinessPivots, a podcast produced for
small business owners.
I'm your host, michael Morrison, founder and CEO of BOSS, where
we make business ownershipsimplified for success.
Our business is helping yoursgrow.
(02:06):
Boss offers business loans withbusiness coaching support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
All right, welcome back toSmall Business Pivots.
We talk with business ownerswho have scaled businesses, and
(02:29):
you brought it up before theshow introduction, so let's talk
about that real quick.
Share how you did it, whathappened, the good, the bad, the
ugly.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
So let's start back in around what was the year?
Maybe the year 2000, 2001.
Besides being obviously havinga profession as a direct
response copywriter, I had apassion let's say a labor of
love and I wanted to supportpeople on a vegan diet.
So I built a website calledveganrecipescom, got indexed in
(03:03):
the top 10 when people searchedfor vegan recipes and over the
next eight years, I think about30,000 people found the site
organically and joined my emaillist to get vegan recipes.
So in 2009, I said you know, Ireally want to do something with
this, and at that time,membership sites were starting
(03:26):
to become more common, morepopular, and so I decided to
offer a one-year program, whichI called the Vegan Mastery
Program.
Also, I had one for vegetarianscalled the Vegetarian Mastery
Program, and so I did a JeffWalker-style launch.
He was one of my mentors and Ithink we got about 400 students
(03:50):
in the first week.
Wow, from there built it tothousands of students and, um,
by the time, I sold the companyin 2017.
Of course, along the way, I hadto build a team right, had to
have people taking care ofcustomer service and bookkeeping
and affiliate management andyou know all the things web
design.
And in 2017, I got to a pointwhere I, due to real estate
(04:17):
investments that did really well, I didn't really need the
income from that anymore anddidn't want the stress anymore.
Didn't really need the incomefrom that anymore and didn't
want the stress anymore.
So I decided to sell thecompany and return to offering
my services as a direct response, copywriter and conversion
expert.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
What kind of stress?
And then we'll move into theconversion.
What kind of stress did youexperience?
Because I know a lot ofbusiness owners ask us from time
to time as business coaches.
They'll say am I the messiestbusiness you've ever seen?
And I'm like absolutely not.
So what kind of challengesstress did you go through?
Just so people know, it doesn'tmatter what size of business,
(04:56):
how long you've had the business, we all go through something.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Let me let me share a couple of successes first, if
that's okay, and then I'll sharesome of the stresses.
Yeah Well, one of the now I amnot a doctor or a dietician,
okay, so I acted more like apublisher, where I contracted
doctors and registereddieticians and people like that
to provide content, and one ofmy other strengths is obviously
(05:21):
creating pages that sell.
Strengths is obviously creatingpages that sell, and so, where
they had the expertise, myexpertise was on getting
converting visitors intocustomers and, as one example,
we made a video sales letterthat helped to sell a $1.2
(05:42):
million of this course that Italked to you about.
Wow, and because we're goingstraight from free subscriber to
a course that was about $200,$200 to $500, depending on which
tier.
I worked with Ryan Dice for alittle while.
He's also one of my mentors andhe said you know what you're
(06:11):
missing, trevor, is a tripwire.
You need to have something forlike seven or ten dollars to
offer the subscribers right awayso you can over deliver and
convince them that they thatthey can trust you Right.
So so we offer.
We made a video sales letter tooffer one of the lessons in our
course, but without therequirement to pay a couple
hundred dollars or get on amonthly subscription, and that
video sales letter converted9.1% of new opt-in subscribers
(06:35):
into paying customers.
So those are a couple ofexamples of things that we did.
Well, yeah, incredible Stressors.
You know when you're, when youhave a team, you're relying on
other people, some of who mighthave the same judgment as you,
some might have better judgmentand some might have different
judgment.
That's a good way to put itDifferent.
(06:57):
Yeah, so there was one timewhen we were doing we were
getting ready for a big launchand my programmer had to put our
cart in test mode to make suresome things were working.
He forgot to take it off testmode on the day of the launch.
So I don't know the first, Idon't even remember the number,
but there were a lot of newcustomers who made the purchase,
(07:18):
got access to the membershipcontent, and yet we didn't get
any money.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I cannot even imagine a golden opportunity that turns
sour, you know, because we'renot making anything.
So well, let's talk about whatyou do today.
So what is it that MarketingExperts actually does On your
website?
It says turn more of yourvisitors into customers and
clients without spending more onads.
(07:44):
So let's talk.
Let's start there first, andthen I think we have a set of
questions that's been given tous to visit.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
So you may be using paid ads, or you may be driving
traffic with affiliates, or youmay be using organic methods.
Regardless of how you'regetting people to your page.
Once they get there, my job isto maximize your conversion rate
, not only on your sales page orit could be a sales video but
also on your checkout page.
There are a lot of mistakesthat people make when creating
(08:15):
the copy for sales pages.
Would you like me to share afew of those right now?
Absolutely so.
One of them is over relying onadjectives instead of verbs, for
example, you might say this isthe most innovative,
groundbreaking method sincesliced bread, and this just
comes across as bragging andhyperbole.
(08:37):
It's not really that effectivein increasing your conversion
rate.
What's better is to focus onverbs, because verbs are
benefits.
For example, stop wasting timeon technical minutia.
Automate 70% of your workload.
Spend more quality time withyour family.
You see how every one of thosestarts with a verb.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Listeners you've already got some takeaways here,
and we haven't really even gotstarted to the meat and potatoes
of the show, so let's keepgoing.
So, when visitors come to awebsite, what makes them put off
their buying decisions?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So a lot of companies or small businesses make the
mistake of just describing theirproduct or program or service
and assuming that's enough.
A description of what you sellis not an offer.
So one of the ways that I helppeople is to develop an offer
that's compelling and createsurgency.
For example, I'll give you anexample.
(09:38):
I just mentioned that we pulledout this one lesson from our
course and offered it for $7.
The offer was hey, normally youwould have to pay a couple
hundred dollars to have accessto this lesson or get on a
monthly subscription, but for alimited time we're letting you
buy it without that biggercommitment.
That was the offer.
An offer can also be only thenext, so many customers will get
(10:03):
a bonus or a discount.
Obviously, it can be a 14 or 30day trial.
We had that as well a $1 14 daytrial.
It can be a trade in offer.
If you sell something physical,like Apple or Verizon may offer
that trade in your old phone.
Right, switch to Verizon andyou'll get this.
(10:24):
You'll get a discount or aspecial offer.
Another thing I just helped aclient with a couple months ago
they've been doing an annualsummit for 14 years and so
they've done a lot of splittesting and really gotten their
sales page to as good as theythought it could be, and one of
the ways that it helped themthis year was to increase the
(10:46):
gap between free and paid, andthis again, this falls under the
umbrella of offer development.
What is the offer?
Why should people pay the $67for recordings when they're
already able to watch them orlisten to them for free?
You're familiar with thesekinds of summits, right?
Yeah?
So of course, you know everyonesays, well, you'll get the
(11:07):
recordings, you can listenforever.
But, yeah, sure, but that's notso competitive.
That's what everyone offers.
So what can we do that'sdifferent, better and more
valuable.
So one thing I suggested was,instead of just letting people
be part of a community forumwith all the free registrants
(11:27):
for eight days, which is thelength of the summit, why don't
we have a special private forumwhere they can get support for
60 days?
That's just for the people thatpay for the recordings and
create more of a privatecommunity.
So they added that we did acouple of other things as well.
Oh, I know what it was.
They mentioned to me thatthey've done a lot of video
(11:49):
interviews and pulled only 20%of the content to create the
episodes of the summit.
But they weren't making a bigpoint about the fact that when
you pay $67, now you'll get theother 80% of the content.
You'll get the completeinterviews instead of just
excerpts or highlights.
So, again, we improve the offerby harping on the fact that
(12:11):
you'll get the other 80% of thecontent and you'll get support
in this private community for 60days.
So that's another way toimprove an offer we hear a lot
about guarantees, but apparentlyguarantees don't increase sales
.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Can you explain maybe why or how to fix that?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, sure, so hopefully, at the very minimum,
you're offering money back ifsomeone's not satisfied.
But again, that's really notcompetitive because that's the
baseline, that's what's expected.
If what you want to do isincrease conversion rates, then
you need to reverse the riskbetter than just you can get
(12:56):
your money back.
And there's a few ways you cando that.
And first of all, let me saythat a big problem with the
guarantee is a lot of times it'sburied at the bottom of the
sales page.
Don't bury it.
Feature it.
Make a big point of the factthat people have to be happy and
get the results you'repromising, or they don't pay.
What makes that even better isto have a promise, a time frame
(13:20):
and the risk reversal.
So an example of that would bereturn to your natural body
weight in 60 days, whereeverything you've downloaded is
yours free.
Let's say you've got a videocourse and some downloadable
PDFs.
So what you're promising isthat if, in 60 days, they
haven't returned to theirnatural body weight, you may
(13:43):
shut off the videos if they askfor a refund, but you can let
them keep the PDFs.
And so what you're doing isyou're promising them a
guaranteed gain, no matter whatthey decide.
That's reversing the risk.
Another thing I advise thecompany that sells plant
fertilizer is to let customersknow that if their plants don't
(14:04):
grow bigger and faster than everbefore, they can send back the
empty container and a photo ofthe plant that they fertilized
right?
This is what's called aconditional guarantee.
So you're protecting yourselfby making a little bit harder
for people to get the refund.
You know, obviously they stillcan and you can still promise in
(14:26):
your headline and in your adsyour plants will grow bigger and
faster than ever before, or youdon't pay because you are
offering that, but they have todo a little bit of work of
sending back the empty containerand showing you a photo.
Let's say you have a coachingprogram with eight sessions.
You can offer a better thanrisk-free guarantee.
(14:47):
Like you know, if you get tothe end of this and don't get
the results I've promised, youcan get a refund.
But the condition is you haveto submit homework by midnight
every Monday for eightconsecutive weeks, and the
homework might be a worksheetthat you provide that takes some
time and effort to fill out.
So this allows you in youroffer and in your ads to say
(15:11):
you'll get this result in eightweeks or you don't pay and
there's a condition to protectyou.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You may or may not know the answer to this, and
that's okay, because it is offthe cuff.
And that is how many people, orwhat percentage, do you think
actually asks for the guarantee?
Do you know what that is?
If not, it's okay.
In other words, how many peopleactually?
I didn't get anything and dothis.
I wouldn't think it would bevery many, because most people
(15:39):
forget they had a guarantee.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Well, it depends on the price.
You know, if you're selling a$17 book, no one's going to
bother, especially if it'sconditional.
You know you might say yourbook has five chapters and every
chapter has some homework atthe end.
So you say, just show us thehomework that you did and we'll
give you double your money back.
So how many people are going towhen they already didn't do the
homework?
They're going to go to all thattrouble just to get 17 plus
(16:03):
another 17 back.
So how many people are going towhen they already didn't do the
homework?
They're going to go to all thattrouble just to get 17 plus
another 17 back.
No, it's important to deliver aproduct that really can provide
the results you're promising.
Okay, you don't want to befooling people when your product
or service can't do that andit's fair to expect them to do
(16:25):
the necessary steps to make ithappen, right?
So if you've got a coachingprogram, they have to do some
work, right?
It might be that they fill outthe homework and send it every.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Monday.
So about decoy pricing?
What is it?
How can it increase yourcustomer value?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Great question.
So we use this with theVegetarian Health Institute, the
company I founded.
And so this is where typicallyyou have three price points and
you have two where the pricesare very close to each other but
the more expensive one offersso much more that it makes that
(17:03):
one seem like a better value oreven like a deal.
Because if you just have oneprice point, people don't know
what to compare it to.
They're not sure is this a goodvalue.
But if you have two pricepoints at least, like basic and
deluxe, then they can comparethem to each other and see which
one feels like a better valueoverall.
(17:24):
Right, if you're saying for $87, you get the basic and for 97,
you get the deluxe, which has amillion more features, it's
pretty obvious to buy the deluxe, right In our case.
So we had a 1997 a month program, $49.97 and $59.97.
(17:46):
And the $49.97 was the decoy.
So the $49.97 offered some morethan you would get for $19.97 a
month, but not nearly as muchas the $59.97 program.
With the most expensive programyou would actually be able to
earn a certificate by taking anopen book exam after each of 50
(18:07):
lessons and if you passed allthe exams, or when you passed
all the exams you get acertificate and for a lot of
people that's a big deal to beable to say I got a certificate.
So for them, you know, to spendan extra $10 a month, you know,
versus $49.97, really was ano-brainer and hardly anybody
(18:29):
bought the intermediate pricepoint because the value was so
much greater for a smallincrease.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
We've talked about specific questions.
What are some of the commonmistakes?
You're listening to SmallBusiness Pivots.
This podcast is produced by mycompany, Boss.
Our business is helping yoursgrow.
Boss offers business loans withbusiness coaching support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
(18:57):
as 24 to 48 hours atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the
subscribe button and share it aswell.
Now let's get back to ourspecial guest.
We've talked about specificquestions.
(19:18):
What are some of the commonmistakes that hurt conversion?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
sales Okay.
So one of them is let's say, onyour sales page you got a
headline, you got a couple ofopening paragraphs and then you
put a link to your checkout page.
That's a headline.
You got a couple of openingparagraphs and then you put a
link to your checkout page.
That's a mistake.
Well, it depends on the price ofyour product.
If it's $17, it might be okay,but if it's $97, if it's a few
hundred dollars, if it's a fewthousand dollars, it's critical
(19:40):
that you establish the value ofwhat you're selling and overcome
objections before you letpeople know what the price is.
That's why video sales lettershave been really popular in some
markets.
One of the main benefits ofvideo sales letters is that
there's no way somebody can seethe price until they've watched
a certain amount of the video.
(20:01):
It might be 20, 25 minutes, andthat's on purpose.
That's to make sure that theydon't go and look at the price
and say, oh, that's tooexpensive and then just abandon
your page is to make sure thatthey really get all of the
reasons why this is differentand better than any other
solution and they really feelagitation around the costs, the
(20:26):
pains and problems that they'regoing to keep living with if
they don't solve their problemor if they choose the wrong
solution, and that you overcometheir objections.
All that has to be done beforeyou reveal the price.
Now, it's okay to have aregular sales page instead of a
video, but if you do, make surethat you wait until you've shown
you've really established allthese things and mentioned your
(20:48):
guarantee and shown testimonialswith with success stories,
before you let people go to yourcheckout page.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
You mentioned testimonials.
Why aren't those working likethey used to?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Oh, I don't think it's.
I don't think it's a differenceof now and before.
I think it's just a differenceof lame testimonials versus
compelling testimonials.
That's always been a problem,yeah yeah, yeah, we.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I know of a influencer on LinkedIn and you
can scroll for about 10 minuteson his landing page and nine and
a half minutes is testimonials.
It's the weirdest thing.
It goes forever on testimonials.
So can you?
Can you talk about thetestimonials being lame or not
(21:38):
and how to get those better?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Absolutely yes.
So let's say, you gave me atestimonial and it said Trevor
is a really great conversionexpert and he met our deadline.
That's not very compelling.
Right now I'm working on asales page for a company that
sells air filters and they havea lot of testimonials.
(22:02):
One of the ones I looked atsaid something like we live in
Los Angeles and there's a lot ofwildfire smoke here and when we
run your air filter we sleepeasier at night, knowing that
it's protecting our air.
But again, for me that's not agreat testimonial because it
does not describe a result thatthe person got, a result that
(22:29):
the person got going from inthis case, going from having
ailments or symptoms to havingrelief from those ailments or
symptoms.
Or, in my case, you know, if youwere to come to
marketingexpertscom, all thetestimonials talk about results.
Trevor increased our conversionrate by this percent or that
percent or tripled our response,whatever it might be, those are
the kinds of testimonials thatyou want, ones that show the
results.
Also, it's important thattestimonials be believable.
(22:53):
If you only have a first nameor first name and last initial,
that's not as believable ashaving a full name, and a full
name is not as believable ashaving a full name with a city
and state.
Or if you're selling toentrepreneurs, it might be
better to have a full name withtheir title and their company
name.
Now you've got a morebelievable testimonial, because
(23:17):
people sometimes imagine thatyour testimonials might be
fabricated, and the more you cando to make it believable, the
better.
Might be fabricated, and themore you can do to make it
believable, the better.
The most believable are videotestimonials or screenshots of
reviews that you got onindependent sites like Yelp,
trustpilot or your Facebook page.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
I know a lot of people go on websites and one of
the common challenges I hearfrom especially e-commerce sites
is people go to the checkoutand then they abandon their cart
.
Anything you can help us withon that part?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, sure.
So, as I mentioned before, makesure you don't link people to
the checkout page too soon.
But in addition, you want todon't assume that just because
people went to the checkout pagenow they're convinced and
they're going to make a purchasewhen they get there.
They're still waffling and it'sa real help if you can show
again the testimonials with theheadshots.
(24:15):
Show again an image of thedeliverables that they're going
to receive.
Other things you want to put onthere restate your risk
reversal.
Remind them that they havenothing to lose and everything
to gain.
For example, in the example Igave earlier, return to your
natural body weight in 60 daysor you pay nothing and
(24:37):
everything you've downloaded isyours free.
Make sure that all that stuffis on the checkout page so if
they're still waffling on thecheckout page, so if they're
still waffling, they arereassured of all the reasons
they originally clicked throughto your checkout page.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
So do you work or do you have, the marketing company
that builds the websites, or doyou work with website companies?
I mean, how does this worktogether?
Do you provide copy for thewebsites or how does the process
work?
Yeah, good question.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I provide the copy and suggested formatting in
Google Doc, and I've got acouple of web designers I work
with that I recommend, of course, if you have your own, you know
, so much the better.
But these designers are greatand they've done stuff for me
and for my other clients so Itrust them Because it really is
(25:31):
about.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
As I browse through your website, you've got
different color text, you've gotsome bold, you've got some
italic, and it really is aboutthe placement right, the
features, what people's eyes aredrawn to, I guess as much as
the actual words, like the verbsyou were talking about earlier.
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
I wouldn't say that design is my expertise, so you
might get better answers from aweb designer.
It's kind of like I know itwhen I see it.
Most of the times the pagedesign for desktop looks okay,
but what I find more common isthe problem is the mobile
version, where whatever softwarethe person's using whether it's
(26:18):
WordPress or high level orShopify or something else when
it's on mobile the imagesobviously get rearranged in how
they appear relative to the copy, and sometimes there's too much
white space between sections.
Sometimes the images get shrunkin a way that doesn't look good
(26:38):
.
So part of what I do is, oncethe designer has made the
desktop and mobile versions, Ilook it over and give the client
suggestions on what I thinkcould make it better.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Do you do the copy for different mediums, so in
other words direct mail,business cards, videos, I mean,
what all can you provide thecopy for?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Well, you wouldn't need me for business cards.
I'm overqualified for that.
You should only hire me if yourgoal is to have people buy
something after they read what Iwrite.
So that's probably not abusiness card.
Mostly I do sales pages andvideo sales letters.
Also I help with checkout pages.
I've done email campaigns.
(27:25):
For example, a Weber who youmay know hired me to improve
their follow-up email sequence.
In the past I've also done backin the day.
You know I started in 1998.
I did a lot of direct mail.
I did magalogs, but most of myclients today are doing online
stuff.
So that's my orientation now.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
How does the process work?
So, if someone does have a webdesigner or agency that they're
using, is it the copy first oris it the design first?
I mean, how does that worktogether?
I mean, or is it a combination?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
That's an excellent question.
I don't think I've been askedthat.
Well, if you already have awebsite and a logo, then
hopefully you already havecolors that represent your brand
and maybe a font right, there'scertain look and feel things on
your site.
I would recommend that when youmake a landing page and by a
font right, there's certain lookand feel things on your site I
would recommend that when youmake a landing page and, by the
way, one thing I didn't mentionearlier is anytime you're
(28:23):
driving people to a page whereyou want them to buy something,
there should be no internalnavigation, there should be no
way for them to go, click aroundand see other pages on your
website.
So this is one of the thingsthat makes a landing page or a
sales page different than aregular website page.
You don't want them to go andget lost in your website, right?
(28:45):
You want them to just have onething to do, which is read your
offer and make a decision.
Okay, so going back to yourquestion.
Okay so, going back to yourquestion.
So let's say your colors areblue and gold and your font is
Helvetica I don't know, I'm justmaking that up.
So yeah, on the landing page orsales page, which you might do
(29:07):
in funnel software likeClickFunnels or GoHighLevel, or
it could be in WordPress.
You'd want to have the samecolors, the same font, the same
look and feel, but I don't seeany way you can really design
that page until I give you thecopy, because that'll define
where there's going to be atable, where there's going to be
columns, where there's going tobe subheads, where the
(29:30):
guarantee goes in a big box, andyou know, at that point you
take that to your designer orone of the designers I work with
, and have them show them yourexisting site, your existing
colors, your logo, and have themcreate a sales page that is
aligned with your current brand.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
You said that was a question you've never been asked
and I feel a little guiltyasking that because I have a
little bit of experience in themarketing world.
One of my companies previouscompanies I exited in 2019, one
of the services that we offeredwas printing, and we printed a
lot of direct mail and we alwayshad it was kind of one of those
(30:09):
the chicken or the egg andbecause we would have a postcard
that somebody wanted to sendout, an oversized postcard, you
know, five by eight or sevenwhatever.
And the content writer were likeyou can't write a letter to
grandma, like they would give usthis long copy, and we're like
we're only dealing with this, somuch space.
And and then they're like well,you know, it was never a matter
(30:32):
, it was always a problem if youhad two different agencies
competing, for you know thesales side and the actual design
side.
So AI is a big deal right nowand I know a lot of people are
using it for copy and content.
Can you, in your space, kind ofshare what weaknesses,
(30:55):
challenges, strengths that AIcan bring to the table and what?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
are some things that people are using it for that is
hurting them more, even thoughthey think it's helping.
Okay, good questions.
So one thing that AI can helpyou with is let's say that you
help with weight loss.
What is the way that you helpwith that?
Because there's a lot of ways.
There's diet shakes, there'saerobics classes or videos,
(31:28):
there's meal plans.
Let's say that you sell mealplans as your solution.
You can go into AI and say whatare the advantages of losing
weight with meal plans insteadof diet shakes or pills or
aerobics classes or videos, andit'll give you some pretty good
differences that you can use inyour copy.
But now the question is why isyour meal plan different and
better than all the other mealplans?
(31:49):
Ai cannot answer that, becauseonly you know the answer to that
question.
It can't search the web or itsdatabase and get answers about
your meal plan, because you'rethe one who created it, and so
this goes to your unique sellingproposition.
(32:17):
It's really essential that youmake it really clear what are
the advantages the uniqueadvantages to your solution in
this case, a meal plan versusall the other meal plans, not
just all the other lose weightsolutions, and so that's one
area that I work with clients onis developing if they're not
clear on it yet the uniqueselling proposition, developing
the offer, developing theguarantee.
The offer and guarantee areother places where AI can make
(32:39):
suggestions, but it can't makedecisions for you.
If you just offer a normalmoney back guarantee and you say
to AI, what should I do toimprove my guarantee, it can
give you a bunch of ideas, butultimately you have to make that
decision.
Give you a bunch of ideas, butultimately you have to make that
decision.
So I guide clients on choosing,making the best decision based
(33:01):
on what's helped my past clientsthe most.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Do you feel taking AI a step further?
Do you feel it's hurting orhelping people that?
Let's say, because I see allthese promises of prompts on
social media, like we had for$9.99, you can buy all these
prompts.
I've seen some of them that saywrite me as a marketing
director, write me a compellingoffer for blah blah, blah, blah
(33:26):
blah, and it spits out whatyou're talking about.
But do you know the differencebetween authentic, which is you,
versus AI?
Is that helping or hurtingpeople using that type of
software?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, the prompts are really important, and I think
it's fine to buy prompts fromsomebody, because the prompts
ask you questions and you're theone who's going to answer the
questions.
So that's in your voice, right?
It's your style, it's yourvalues it's about.
It's your style, it's yourvalues, it's your brand, and so
it'll take the answers youprovide and turn it into
something.
(34:01):
Um, what I found is that a lotof what it turns it into sounds
kind of cliche.
Um, it sounds like what youwould read on everybody else's
website or brochure, and so atat that point, you've still got
to go in there and massage it orrevise it, and sometimes the
(34:21):
language that it comes up with.
Let me put it this way Howevermany words you have on the sales
page, you want to get the mostbang for your word, right.
You don't want to waste anywords or sentences just saying
something like we're sure thatyou'll be very happy with this
(34:42):
decision.
That doesn't add anything, butAI would write that into your
copy.
So you get the point right.
You want to comb out all thefluff and all the stuff that
sounds the same as whatcompetitors would say and make
sure that the copy that's inyour sales page.
(35:03):
Every sentence is somethingthat really compels the person
to want to read further, to wantto solve their problem, to feel
that they can trust you andthat they're not taking a risk.
And you know, by itself, whatAI turns out will not, you know,
will not achieve that goal.
It does need human interaction.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I agree, and there's still a lot of business owners
that are new to AI, and forthose that are at the time and I
say this for a reason at thetime of this recording AI is
currently all it's doing isintertwining, pulling together
all the information.
Whatever you ask it to do, orfor it's pulling information in,
(35:51):
it doesn't really have a brain,and I know a lot of business
owners don't.
They don't know what, where itgets that information.
They just think it's smart andI'm just saying this as an
educational for our listeners.
If you're not, you know, aisavvy.
It's getting, it's pullinginformation that's already out
there and turning it intosomething that you're asking for
(36:14):
, and, and so I want to kind ofshare that, because that kind of
goes along with what you'resaying of it still needs that
human element.
It can't answer questions foryou.
It can pull an answer together,but it doesn't have a brain
like a human does.
So very cool.
Well, I guarantee that you'vepiqued the interest of a lot of
(36:34):
listeners.
How is the best way to followyou for more information?
Do you have anything they cango get?
I see on your website you havea free critique button to click
on.
Can you share a little bitabout some of those things.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, sure, If you're interested in finding out how
your copy could be improved, youcan run with these ideas that
I've shared today.
You can also come tomarketingexpertscom and when you
fill out the form, we'll giveyou a free 30-minute critique
there's no obligation, there'sno cost and just show you areas
on your sales copy that haveroom for improvement and make
(37:11):
some suggestions as to what youcan do instead.
At that point you know you cantake the critique and you can
run with it yourself.
But it's also a way for us toget to know each other and see
if we would be a good fitworking together.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Speaking of good fit, what types of businesses is a
good fit for you?
Size-wise, industry-wise?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I would say about half of my clients sell
information.
So membership sites, courses,conferences, things like that.
I've also worked with aninsurance agent to sell a lot
more policies.
I've worked with a REMAX agentwho was teaching other real
estate agents how to sell morehomes.
So he did a weekend conferenceand the Magalog I created for
(37:56):
him sold out his conference inlike two days.
$250,000 in revenue in two daysWow yeah.
And the insurance agent madelike $450,000 on his first
mailing of the letter.
So those are some examples.
Currently writing copy for airfilters, for water filters.
(38:18):
I've done summits, I've donehypnotherapy, I've done sexual
arousal cream, I've donenutritional supplements.
So there's a big gambit there.
So I like working with smallerbusinesses.
You know, two to 12 employees,maybe 15.
It's not really the number ofemployees that matters to me,
(38:39):
it's being able to work directlywith the owner or president or
somebody that really understandsthe product or service or
program and can answer thequestions that I'm going to need
to ask in order to do the bestjob to ask in order to do the
best job, is this something thatpeople work with you ongoing,
(39:00):
or do they usually send you aproject and then you fulfill it?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
How does that work?
I'm trying to get a sense ofaffordability for businesses.
You don't have to give me anumber of how much it costs, but
just so someone has an idea ofyeah, I could invest in that.
I've got enough revenue forthat, because not everybody's a
fit.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Of course, sure.
So it really depends on howmuch traffic you already have
coming to your site or how bigyour email list is or your
following.
So it depends on you know.
Do you have the ability to senda lot of traffic there?
Are you already getting a lotof traffic, or do you already
have a big email list or someother avenue?
(39:39):
Perhaps it's affiliates?
Some of the people I work withhave a huge network of
affiliates, so when they do alaunch, they're getting tens or
hundreds of thousands of newemail subscribers.
But you could start with a freecritique and we can see where
we go from there.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Is there a social channel that you're on A?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
social channel, mainly LinkedIn.
Yeah, it's Mr Trevor Levine.
Mr Trevor Levine.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Fantastic.
Well, I usually ask is thereanything that I didn't ask today
, that you're like?
I really need to mention thisalso?
I don't think so.
You covered a lot of bases,covered it All right.
Well, then I have one finalquestion, and that is if you
were in front of a group ofbusiness owners different sizes,
different seasons of businesswhat's one thing that could be
(40:30):
applicable to all of them?
It could be a tip, a quote, abook, anything that can help
them move their business forward.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
I found growing my company that it was really
important to delegate.
Actually, even before that Iwas already.
I had an office assistant to domy bookkeeping and other admin
work.
I had a cleaning lady.
So and I still do and the thingof it is, there's two types of
tasks that I think it'simportant to delegate.
(41:01):
One is work that you can sub outfor 25 bucks an hour or
something around there, right,If your time is worth 100 an
hour, 250 an hour, somethinghigher, whatever it might be,
there's no reason for you to bedoing $25 an hour work that you
could have been delegating.
So, free up your time so you caneither do more billable hours
(41:24):
or you can do the kind of workthat's going to create more
revenue and grow your company.
The other kinds of tasks are ifthere's something that requires
expertise you don't have.
So if I want to create acontract, like when I was
selling my company, obviously Ihad a contract with the buyer I
didn't try to make the contractmyself.
I hired a lawyer, and I hopethat if you have an important
(41:47):
contract, that you will alsohire a lawyer and not do it
yourself.
Just the same, if when it comesto improving conversion rates
on sales pages.
Unless you're a trained directresponse advertising copywriter,
then you should be delegatingthat as well, because, just like
with hiring a lawyer, this isan expertise that you don't
(42:10):
currently have.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Well said.
I encourage and preach andcoach that all the time.
If you're not an expert in thatarea of your business, delegate
it.
Go find somebody that can do it, because the time it takes you
to do it or figure out how to doit, you're going to do it wrong
anyways or not, as well as aprofessional.
(42:33):
So delegate those tasks.
So thank you so much.
Well, you've been a wealth ofinformation, a blessing to many.
I wish you continued successand thank you again for being on
Small Business Pivots andproduced by my company, boss.
Our business is growing yours.
(42:55):
Boss offers flexible businessloans with business coaching
support.
Apply in minutes and getapproved and funded in as little
as 24 to 48 hours.
Atbusinessownershipsimplifiedcom.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to hit the
subscribe button and share it aswell.
If you need help growing yourbusiness, email me at michael at
(43:17):
michaeldmorrisoncom.
We'll see you next time onSmall Business Pivots.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!