September 5, 2025 • 34 mins
An internationally renowned champion for saving marriages, best-selling author and marriage coach Michele Weiner-Davis has written eight books, covering topics such as divorce busting, sex-starved marriages, and her most recent one – “Healing from Infidelity,” a topic we delve deeply into during this Smart Sex, Smart Love podcast.
“If it weren’t for the kids, we wouldn’t be trying to save our marriage,” is a statement Weiner-Davis hears often in her sessions with couples heading for divorce. How a therapist responds to that statement can make all the difference in what transpires, she has found from her years of experience working with couples who are struggling in their marriage.
She courageously speaks out about the pitfalls of unnecessary divorce – she founded The Divorce Busting Center in Boulder, Colorado – and urges couples to make their marriages work and keep their families together, an often unpopular sentiment among many therapists.
In this podcast, she offers some valuable advice to help couples rebuild trust and repair their fragile relationship.
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Unknown (00:00):
Michelle,
JOE KORT (00:05):
welcome to Smart sex, smart love. We're talking about
sex goes beyond the taboo, andtalking about love goes beyond
the honeymoon. My guest today isMichelle Weiner Davis, a
renowned licensed clinicalsocial worker, marriage and
family therapist and the founderof divorce busting center in
Boulder, Colorado. She coinedthe term divorce busting at an
American Association forMarriage and Family Therapy
(00:27):
conference in 1989 and shecontinues to be a champion for
the sanctity of marriage andsaving relationships. Michelle
is a best selling author ofeight books, including divorce
busting and the sex starvedmarriage. Her most recent book,
Healing from infidelity is adivorce busting guide on
rebuilding your marriage afteran affair. She made many
(00:48):
national media appearances ondivorce prevention and as a
sought after speaker whose TEDTalk, TEDx talk on the sex
starved marriage has had morethan 9.5 million views her
website, www.divorcebusting.comoffers valuable information for
people in troubled marriages.
Michelle has received severalprestigious professional awards,
(01:09):
including OutstandingContribution to marriage and
family therapy Award from theAmerican Association for
Marriage and Family Therapy.
Today, Michelle will talk withme about sex starved marriages
and infidelity. WelcomeMichelle. Hi. Good to be here.
It's great to have you here.
I've known Michelle of many,many years at a conference we
used to attend calledpsychotherapy networker, which
(01:31):
still exists. And this came outbecause this her on my podcast,
because on Facebook, I posted avideo, but I did, and I said
that I didn't believe thatstaying in a marriage was right
for children, that is, and thatthere's been research that
showed me the first two yearscan be troublesome, but that
things work out. And then,Michelle, I think you said, but
(01:53):
you you're more of an advocateto stay in the marriage.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (01:57):
Well, what I would say is that, you know, I
specialize in working withcouples who teeter on the brink
of divorce, and I would say thatalmost all of them, not all.
Some people, don't have kids,but the ones who do will almost
always say, if it weren't forthe kids, we wouldn't be here.
How a therapist responds to thatstatement, I think can make all
(02:21):
the difference in whattranspires. So for example, I
could say, well, that's notenough reason. How, for what
other in what other ways do youlove your spouse, and why else
would you want to work on thismarriage? And when people come
to therapy, they're notnecessarily sure they they want
to. And by asking that question,in a sense, it it seals the
(02:44):
deal, because they will repeattheir narrative that they that
they don't want to work on themarriage, or they're pretty sure
they don't want to work on themarriage. But if, over the
course of our working together,I say, you know, obviously you
love your kids a lot. And Iwonder, first of all, where in
your family, in your growing up,you learned about the importance
(03:07):
of family of kids and parentalrelationships. So we get to talk
about the importance of theparent child relationship. Also,
by the way, part of what I do inmy intake, where I'm gathering
demographic information is Iask, you know, how many kids do
you have? What are their names?
What are their ages? And then Isay, tell me about them. I bring
(03:29):
their presence into the room. Idon't think over the long haul,
people will only stay for thesake of the kids. But if that's
the catalyst for people sittingin my room, I tell them, I give
them kudos for really caringabout their kids' emotional well
(03:50):
being. And I guess I shouldbacktrack a little bit, because
you didn't know this. I don'tknow if you know this about why
I feel so passionate about it.
Yeah, so, so I grew up what inwhat I would call the East Coast
version of the Walton family. Iknow I'm dating myself by using
(04:11):
that reference, but you know, Ihad two parents who adored me,
two brothers who I pretty muchloved all the time. We had a
very, very close knit, extendedfamily, because my parents were
immigrants, and all of theirfamily members were near us, and
so we were family all the time.
Never saw my parents fight. Iwill never be in a therapist's
(04:34):
office lying on a couchcomplaining about my childhood,
because really, in so many ways,I thought it was incredible,
unconditional love oozed fromthe environment. And then one
day, I was a senior in highschool, and I was I was 16 years
old, and my mom called us all infor an impromptu family meeting,
which was not the norm in myfamily. So as my father and my
(04:56):
two brothers and me, we. Sheproceeded to tell us that she'd
been unhappy for 23 years in hermarriage, and that she tried to
work out her differences with myfather, and which, by the way,
keep in mind, they never fought.
So we had no idea there weredifferences. And she said, there
(05:18):
comes a time in everyone's lifewhere you have to throw in the
towel and those words even justsaying them. Now to you, Joe, it
was traumatic. It truly, trulywas traumatic. And plus, keep in
mind the timing in my life whereI was being launched into the
real world, going off tocollege, and my parents'
(05:39):
marriage was falling apart. Mynest was falling apart. And
beyond that, something in mylittle 16 year old brain
couldn't really realize at thetime, the family life as I knew
it never, ever, ever, was thesame, because my mother was the
hub of the family wheel, andwhen she decided to get a
(06:01):
divorce, she resigned from theposition, and it just truly
never was the same. So it hadthis huge impact on me in a
really, really big way. It'salmost like the carpet, the rug
was pulled from beneath me. DidI figure out how to go on with
my life? Yes. Do I considermyself damaged goods? No, had my
(06:25):
mother many times said to me,and I was very close to my
mother, even after her decisionto divorce, had my mother said
to me many, many times, listen,Michelle, if it weren't for me,
you wouldn't have a best sellingbook. She did say that. What I
said to her, is I, I'm sure Iwould have figured something
else to get passionate about,but that, as it may so, so I
(06:48):
really strongly believe that, ifthat is, that one of the reasons
that people think that they'rewilling to work or would
consider working on a marriage,bring it on, And I compliment
them for their caring about it.
Clearly, I have a zest for life.
I don't think we only have onego around. I don't think two
people should be miserable. Thatis not good for kids, but I
(07:12):
don't believe that people haveto be miserable because so much
of the time. And I know you andI probably agree with this, but
when people think that that theyhave fallen out of love, or that
they're incompatible, or thatit's just not fixable, part of
what's missing. There are skillsyou know, that it's a skill
(07:33):
deficit, and I feel armed withthose tools, and I readily share
them and so much of the time,and this is what makes me a
psychotic optimist so much ofthe time. If I don't really
focus on, should you orshouldn't you stay for the sake
of the kids, but, but can youmake your marriage a place you
(07:53):
want to be for the sake of thekids? We're off and running and
and very often, not only doestheir marriage stay intact, but
their kids have an intact home,which, of course, for me, given
my background, is a wonderful,wonderful thing.
JOE KORT (08:08):
I never knew all that that is so interesting, and I
love the way you say it. Sothat's how you got into helping
couples. Do you know, staytogether, saving marriages?
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (08:18):
Yeah, I knew I wanted to do family
therapy and so much of the Iworked at a social service
agency in the beginning of mycareer, working with social
Youth Service Bureau, workingwith adolescents and their
families and so much of thetime. What I discovered when I
would when parents were tellingme they're getting a divorce, I
(08:38):
would do what most people dobreak, teach them how to break
the news to the kids and how toget into support groups and how
to identify when the kidsstruggling. But so often in that
work, what I heard from peopleafter the divorce was that if I
only knew then what I know nowabout what it takes to make my
life work. Now, perhaps I couldhave put more energy into making
(09:03):
my marriage work and keeping ourfamily together. So that,
combined with my own emotionalstuff, made me really determined
to probably spend the rest of mylife helping couples avoid
divorce, if possible.
JOE KORT (09:19):
Yeah, what you have, you've dedicated book after book
and articles, but tell us howyou got into and what is a sex
starved marriage. Can youdescribe
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (09:27):
it? Sure.
So when people hear that phrasea sex starved marriage, I think
the image that they get is thatthere is either zero sex or a
certain number of times per weekthat people should be having
sex, and if they're not, as asex starved marriage. But you
know, unlike vitamins, whichthere may be a daily minimum
requirement, there is no suchthing, because people are so
(09:48):
different. But what happens inwhat I call a sex starved
marriage, one spouse, often theman, but not always the man. So
hear me on that one. Uh, isdesperately longing for more
physical closeness, more touch,more sex, more physical
affection. And the other spousethinks, what is the big deal?
(10:09):
Would you just get a life? Thisis so not a big deal, but to the
person who, in a way, their lovelanguage, their way of feeling
connected, their way of feelingsafe in the relationship is
through touch. It's a huge dealbecause it really is about
feeling wanted, about feelingloved, about feeling connected.
(10:30):
You know, a lot of times theperson with lower desire thinks
about sex in terms of, well,it's just a biological urge.
It's like scratching an itch,but it is so not that it is from
I've had the opportunity toreally listen to the people who
talk to me about what it's likewhen their spouse isn't
(10:52):
interested in being physicallyclose, and There's such a deep
sense of rejection and hurt. Andby the way, what happens in
these relationships is whenespecially, I would say, well,
actually, men and women, whenyou're the higher desired spouse
and you're hurt, you may go toyour spouse or your partner and
(11:15):
speak in a vulnerable way abouthow you're missing them, how
you'd like to be more connectedphysically, and if those
expressions of wanting moreconnection are not actually met
with positive behavior, veryquickly, the vulnerability turns
to anger, snarkiness, shuttingdown emotionally, going into a
(11:36):
Man Cave, spending more timewith one's girlfriends and anger
and irritability. Guess what?
Newsflash, it's not anaphrodisiac. The angrier, the
higher sex person is, the lessthe other person's going to want
to be with them physically, andthe less they want to be with
them physically, the angrierthey get. It truly is job
(12:00):
security for people like you andme, because they are in
opposite, opposite directions.
And the other thing, what'sreally, I don't think that
enough people, or even for thatmatter, enough therapists, talk
about is the person, generallyspeaking, again, always
exceptions, the person withhigher desire, I'm sorry, the
person with lower desirecontrols the sexual
(12:24):
relationship.
JOE KORT (12:27):
They never like to hear that too, because they feel
like they're it sounds likeyou're saying it's intentional.
It isn't, but it is the default,right? Absolutely, I
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (12:34):
always say it's not because they're mean
spirited. It's not becausethey're trying to hurt the other
person. But in essence,oftentimes, if they don't want
to be physically close, it's notgoing to happen. And then to add
on to that, not only are theysort of calling the shots
regarding in the bedroom, butthey expect their spouse to just
(12:56):
accept that. You know, if I'mnot in the mood, I'm not in the
mood, so go take a shower, andnot only that, but be
monogamous, which is really whenyou think about that, you know,
and I know Esther Perel has donea really good job of showing
that when somebody cheats and,you know, has an affair, clearly
(13:17):
there is a betrayal, but There'salso a betrayal when one person
who's less interested in sex orphysical touch has no
compassion, empathy or interestin what's such a strong need in
the other person, that isbetrayal as
JOE KORT (13:33):
well. Okay, wait, I want to just pause there,
because I'm so glad you saidthis. That never goes well when
I say that to a couple if I andI don't know, is it because I'm
a male? Is it because you'refemale that you can say it
because, generally, it's notalways, because there are men
that stop wanting to have sextoo, but it's in general, in my
room, it's the woman. And when Ibring up, it is a betrayal. They
(13:56):
do not like to hear that.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (13:57):
And you know what, Joe, I don't even I
don't say that, but what the wayI work, the way that I get into
that? I mean, I'm saying this toyou and to the people who are
listening, because it's true.
But when I'm working withpeople, the way I try to develop
more compassion isn'tnecessarily by confrontation to
the person who has lower desire.
(14:18):
I turn to the person who hashigher desire, and I say, tell
me what that's like for you whenyou are reaching out, when you
want to be close, and she's justabsolutely not interested. In
fact, I'll tell you a littlestory, and this was actually my
TEDx talk. And this is, this isa true story, working with a
couple for quite a while. He's areally laid back guy. Never
(14:38):
complains about anything. Ithink they're going along
swimmingly. And then one day, asyou know, they wait to the five
minute, the last five minutes ofthe session, to tell me what's
really going on. He says, yes,there is something I would like
to talk about. I said, Great.
What's that? He said. He takes adeep breath, and he says, Really
there are, there's only a twohour window of opportunity. On
like Friday night from 10 to 12that I know she might be
(15:03):
interested in sex, and if sheisn't, I know I shouldn't even
bother trying until next week,because it's not going to
happen. And he said it, youcould tell he was distressed,
but I looked at her, and she hada smile of recognition on her
face, and so I said to him, Iknow, I know she's smiling, and
she goes, Yeah, that's me. IThat is what I do. But I noticed
(15:25):
that you're not Could you talk alittle bit about what's going on
with you as you describe this?
And I know it was really hardfor him, but what he said was,
he turned to her, and he said,you know when we're in bed
together and I reach out to you,and you're not into it. And then
you, you reject me, and thenyou, all of a sudden, you go to
(15:48):
sleep, and I hear you breathing.
And there I am in bed alone,staring up at the ceiling, and
all I can tell you is that it isthe loneliest feeling in the
world lying next to you in bed.
And to this woman's credit, sheshe took it in, she started to
tear up, and she grabbed hishand, and you know what she said
(16:12):
to him, every time you touch me,I do this internal search, like,
Am I in the mood? Am I not inthe mood? I never really think
about what's going on with you,that you're reaching out to me.
Never Wow, and I promise I'mgoing to do better. And he
started to cry. And Joe,honestly, I started such a
(16:35):
touching moment. And thebeautiful thing that happened is
she really, really did do whatshe said she was going to do,
and here's what she learned inthe process. And I actually
learned this too in my own workwith couples. It took some years
to figure it out, but I'm goingto say things to you that I know
you already know, but maybepeople who are listening don't.
(16:57):
So the human sexual responsecycle had been thought of having
four stages. You know, the firstcomes desire, meaning you could
be doing just about anything,and you all of a sudden have
this random lusty thought, andyou get really horny, and you go
to find your partner. The secondstage is you start touching and
you feel aroused. The thirdstage is, if your body's working
(17:19):
properly, you have an orgasm,and the fourth stage is
resolution, where your body goesback to its normal resting
state. But here's what shefigured out, and here's
thankfully, what researchfigure. Researchers figured out
a long time ago for millions ofpeople, and most of them are
women, but not all stages oneand two are actually reversed,
(17:40):
meaning they have to be arousedbefore your brain goes, ooh,
this is fun. I want to do this.
I like this. And so many ofthese people have really, really
satisfying sexual experiences. Ialways ask them, Do you have an
orgasm? And they go, yeah. Andthen, not only that, but I saw
how happy my spouse was and somuch nicer to me, and we got
(18:02):
along so much better for therest of the week. And so it's
been a misconception when womenin my practice say, you know, I
think I need to go to the doctorbecause I have no sexual desire.
I have low sexual desire. Maybethat's true. There could be
physiological things happening,but maybe they're misconstruing
what desire is about. For them,they do not have spontaneous
(18:26):
desire, but they do haveresponsive desire, and that is
desire no less viable thanspontaneous desire. So she this
woman discovered that, and itbecame a whole new thing for
JOE KORT (18:43):
her. I love that for them, and it is such a powerful
story. What? How do you help thecouples bridge that gap when
there is that desirediscrepancy? That's one way you
do other things.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (18:53):
Part of part of what I mean, it's sort
of multifaceted, right? So partof it is encouraging the low
desire spouse, again, often, butnot always, the woman to be
after she hears the heartachethat has been causing her
partner, to not feel connectedto her, to to allow herself to
(19:17):
be receptive to her partner'sadvances. More often, even
starting from a neutral startingpoint, even if it wasn't on her
brain to see if this is asatisfying experience for her as
well, and also the relationshipbenefits as a result. So, so
that's one piece of it. Theother piece of it is that, you
(19:40):
know, so often, thestereotypical dynamic which we
all learned about in graduateschool is that, you know, women
need to feel close and connectedemotionally before they're
interested in sex, and men needto feel close and connected
physically before they'reinterested in investing their
energy talking or. Spending timetogether, or even sometimes
(20:02):
being invested in being in thehome and doing the things that
need to be done. That's wherepeople have a standoff. So in
identifying what is, what isthis woman's love language? What
does this guy have to do, whichdoesn't include buying new sexy
lingerie or turning on somethinglike pornography, or reading a
(20:26):
sexy romance novel, somethingcompletely different from for a
lot of women, it's completelydifferent. You know, just, just
help me three times a week makedinner. You know, just help me
put the kids to bed. Just ask mewith interest, how was How was
your day? And let me talk aboutmy feelings without telling me
(20:47):
what to do. You know, it'sdifferent for everybody, but
being able to identify that in alot of ways that is that's the
aphrodisiac for her. And once hesees it with that frame. He's, I
think he's much more willing toengage in those behaviors. The
other thing that I that hasreally influenced my work, in a
(21:10):
very big way, is The Five LoveLanguages. You know, I teach my
couples about the five lovelanguages. I have my own
exercise that I do and for and,you know, I'm happy to share it
with you sometime, but it's toodetailed. But what comes from
that exercise is, for so manypeople, it's the first time that
(21:30):
they connect the dots that he'snot doing that because I'm not
doing this. She's not doing thatbecause I'm not doing this, we
have them grade themselves onhow well they think they've been
showing love in their partner'slove language in the last
however long it might be. Andit's the first time people give
(21:53):
themselves bad grades, becauseup until that moment, it's
always their partner's fault.
That's the reason I haven't beendoing real giving or showing
love, but they recognize thereciprocity, and to me, that's
when the magic begins.
JOE KORT (22:12):
That's so nice. Let's talk about the infidelity.
Because I know people are goingto want to hear and you and I,
I'm sure you've heard it too.
People say and they'll say itall the time. When I do social
media, they never work. Youcan't get back together. You'll
never trust again. You can'tbridge the gap, but you don't
see it as a deal breaker. I'msure, if you're all about
divorce pristine. So can youshare your wisdom about how can
couples come back frominfidelity?
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (22:36):
Stop reading the internet first. It's
like, you know, it's because I'ma systemic thinker. I know that
a lot of my message, I'm havingto deal with the other stuff
that they're getting. I had acouple yesterday, Joe, they
literally read 25 books beforethey got to me on infidelity. I
(22:56):
didn't even know there were thatmany. But no, they they did
their homework, but also, andmost of them were either sort of
unbiased about staying in yourmarriage or pro marriage. They
ended up with me because that'swhat they wanted to do, I mean,
in terms of pro marriage. Butshe started sharing with me some
of the stuff that she wasreading on the internet and even
(23:17):
in some books about once, justlike you said, once a cheater,
always a cheater, you know, cutyour losses. Get out of there,
you know. And I think it has tostart first of all, I think it's
really helpful for people to gethelp, and especially if they've
been ruminating and not in notgetting past certain impasses.
(23:42):
It's really important to gethelp. I'm also really biased
about getting help from someonewho believes staying in the
marriage is possible. I recentlyhad, I'm going to be working
with somebody next week who'sbeen to a number of therapists
who have all she said all thetherapists told me to get out of
(24:03):
this marriage. That's a
JOE KORT (24:04):
big thing. Do you know that's a big thing? Because
they're having their own bias,and maybe they've been cheated
on. If you've ever gone andyou've probably done workshops,
I've been in them, when thepresenter says, How many of you
have been touched or experiencedinfidelity? Three quarters of
the room,
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (24:18):
I know, yeah, we'd have a completely
divorced world if we went withthat, right? Um, so I think, I
guess part of what I'm sayingright now, and I can hear we're
kindred spirits about this, ithas to start with the belief
that it's possible, I agree, andand it actually it becomes a
(24:39):
self fulfilling prophecy. Sothat's part of it. The other
part of it is for most couples,especially if it's like a first
time affair. I mean, it's thefirst affair in their marriage.
They are their lives are turnedso upside down, they don't know
which end is up. And I know youknow this, but it is so
(24:59):
traumatizing to. The betrayedspouse so often. They can't eat,
they can't sleep, they can'tfunction, they can't go to work,
they can't take care of thekids. They think they're going
crazy. They think they're goingto die. They hope they're going
to die. It's really intense. Andone of the I would say, failures
(25:21):
of a lot of people, therapistswho aren't trained or haven't
had a lot of experience, thisisn't just you need more than
garden variety therapy skills,because you don't just ask
people how they feel aboutthings. These are people who
need guidance. They needcoaching. They need specifics.
And I don't know about you, Joe,but when I was in graduate
(25:43):
school, was all about helpingpeople discover the answers.
When sometimes people haveanswers within and sometimes
they need to say, Don't do that.
Do this instead. This isn'tworking for you. I'm curious. Do
you do that? Do I do people tell
JOE KORT (26:01):
Yeah, I'm not asking them always to dig inside
themselves at all. I have lotsof resources,
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (26:05):
yes, and actually, during the times when
I've done training fortherapists, and therapists have
come up to me during breaks sooften, what I've heard is, you
know, I hear you talking, and Iwant you to know that I just
lost a client last week, and Icontacted them to find out what
was missing, and they said, Younever told us what to do. We
(26:27):
just came in week after weekafter week talking about the
same stuff, right? So, so I I'mvery programmatic, you know, in
my work with couples, in in mybook healing from infidelity,
and now I'm excited because Ijust did an audio book. People
have been saying, you've got tomake an audio book. So now I
have there are steps that allboth the betrayed and the
(26:52):
unfaithful spouse must take toget to the other side, and I'm
very clear with them, first ofall, normalizing any feelings
that happen within the betrayedspouse so that they don't it's
bad enough they're going throughthis hard time and then to lay
judgment another layer of thiswhole thing so that they know
they're not going crazy. Theyknow they're going to come out
(27:15):
the other side. And by the way,this is I'm telling you this
because this happened yesterday.
I was it was pretty overwhelmingfor me. I sometimes think the
most important thing therapistscan do with all of our fancy
skills is just to remind peoplethey're going to get through
this and they're going to comeout the other side. And of
course, they need tools to getthere, normalizing the intense
(27:35):
emotions, normalizing theradical ups and downs that are
inevitable, really, reallyteaching the unfaithful spouse
how to sometimes, unfaithfulspouses, I mean, they want, they
really want their spouse to feelbetter. They just don't know
(27:57):
how. Yes, really don't know howand some and that often pisses
off the betrayed spouse, becausethey think they should know what
to do. No, they why would theyknow what to do? So so really
offering concrete suggestions tothe unfaithful spouse, for
example, I'm very big on extremetransparency, doing whatever the
(28:19):
betrayed spouse needs you to do,including you know passwords and
closing social media accounts,making sure your spouse knows
where you are at all times. Andmy New York upbringing comes in
handy, because if someone saysto me, well, then I feel like
(28:40):
I'm in jail. You know what I sayto them? You know, no one wants
to be in jail for the rest oftheir lives. We're not talking
about this is how you shouldlive the rest of your life.
You're going through atransitional period. There's a
crisis here, and when there's acrisis, you have to behave in
different ways. And you can, youcan decide not to do it, but I'm
going to tell you, if you don't,and you're not answering the
(29:03):
questions fully and honestly,you will not get to the other
side. So you
JOE KORT (29:10):
exactly, I love that you're saying this. I say
exactly you do that too. I loveit. Yes, it's validating to hear
you say this. I will say,though, the one thing I see a
lot of almost every day, becauseI deal a lot with infidelity
too, is that the person who isinvolved, who did have the
affair, says, can't you just getover this? I'm done just why do
we have to keep resurrecting it?
And I have to say to them,that's you're going to have to
keep resurrecting it untilthey're no longer needing to
(29:32):
resurrect it. Absolutely, youknow.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (29:35):
And I'm hard on them too. I really get
that you're ready to move on. Ireally get that there's a pretty
big chance that you feel so muchbetter now that you are not
being duplicitous and tellinglies, and you've stepped into
the light. Well, guess what?
Your spouse is in the darkestperiod of his or her life, and
you're on two separate journeys.
(30:00):
And if you need to be patient,and not just now, not just six
months from now, but even maybe10 years from now, your spouse
might something might triggeryour spouse and have a question
or get sad, and you need to findexercise that empathy muscle,
and you know, and show yourspouse that you're there for the
(30:22):
long haul. So as you can hear,you know, me talking to you. I'm
directing traffic, and I'm veryclear with people. If you do
these things, you will get tothe other side. I had my couple
yesterday. She found out thather husband had had, I don't
know, maybe six or seven affairsduring the brief two year period
(30:47):
that they were together beforethey got married. She found out
three days after they gotmarried, as they were driving to
a vacation together, that allthis had happened three days
after she got married, and bythe end of the two days, they
were figuring out how they couldrenew their vows. So it's it's
(31:08):
possible, it's more thanpossible.
JOE KORT (31:10):
I love that you're so hopeful I could talk with you
another half hour, maybe we'llbring you back. What else would
you like to hear before we endthat you didn't say that you
wanted to make sure you heardpeople hear about
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (31:19):
your work?
Well, I mean, what comes to mindright away is that I, you know
you, and I've talked about this,and I think you should do more
of it, but I no longer even knowhow to do hourly sessions, you
know, because I have found alonger format of working with
people, especially not just infidelity, but almost any
difficult kind of problem, youknow, there's no there's no bell
(31:44):
ringing, there's no kid tuggingat their sleeve, there are no
distractions. You really canpeel away the layers and have
comfortable time to do that. SoI encourage people to think
about the the format can reallymake a difference in terms of
the outcomes, right? Intensives,I do two day intensives. When
(32:07):
people want to work with me, Isee them for two they fly in. I
see them for two days. And it'sit, you know, it's a wonderful,
wonderful experience. And theand the only other thing is, you
know, this whole issue of ofhope, um, no matter what the
problem is, no matter what itis, it's so easy to fall into
(32:30):
the trap of believing that howyou feel in the moment is how
you will feel forever. And thething I've learned about
feelings is they're transient,and that the thing I've learned
about helping people is, if yougo to a therapist who doesn't
believe change is possible, youneed to go to a different
JOE KORT (32:52):
I love that. I can't believe how. I mean, we barely
never sat and talked so muchlike this. I mean, I've read
your stuff, but we really thinka lot of like, I love everything
you're saying.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (33:02):
That's great. Well, I felt connected to
you on a you know, we never gotspecific. But I I love watching
your little snippets on Tiktokand getting to know you that way
too. So how can people find you?
Probably the best way would be.
Well, the marriageintensive.comis one way. As you said,
(33:23):
divorcebusting.com is anotherway. And my I'm always happy to
answer people's email, which ismichelle@divorcebusting.com
JOE KORT (33:31):
so that's how they can find me. Awesome, awesome,
great. I'm so glad to have hadyou. Thank you so much for being
on the show. Let's connectagain. Thank you for sure. So if
you're listening, you can hearmore of my podcast at Smart sex,
smartlove.com it's also all overon Spotify, on Apple. You can
also follow me on Twitter, onTiktok, Instagram and Facebook.
(33:52):
You can also and everywhere I'mat Dr. Joe court, D, R, J, o, e,
K, O, R T, and you can also goto my website. Jokecourt.com,
thanks for listening, and we'llsee you next time you.
Michelle,
JOE KORT (00:05):
welcome to Smart sex, smart love. We're talking about
sex goes beyond the taboo, andtalking about love goes beyond
the honeymoon. My guest today isMichelle Weiner Davis, a
renowned licensed clinicalsocial worker, marriage and
family therapist and the founderof divorce busting center in
Boulder, Colorado. She coinedthe term divorce busting at an
American Association forMarriage and Family Therapy
(00:27):
conference in 1989 and shecontinues to be a champion for
the sanctity of marriage andsaving relationships. Michelle
is a best selling author ofeight books, including divorce
busting and the sex starvedmarriage. Her most recent book,
Healing from infidelity is adivorce busting guide on
rebuilding your marriage afteran affair. She made many
(00:48):
national media appearances ondivorce prevention and as a
sought after speaker whose TEDTalk, TEDx talk on the sex
starved marriage has had morethan 9.5 million views her
website, www.divorcebusting.comoffers valuable information for
people in troubled marriages.
Michelle has received severalprestigious professional awards,
(01:09):
including OutstandingContribution to marriage and
family therapy Award from theAmerican Association for
Marriage and Family Therapy.
Today, Michelle will talk withme about sex starved marriages
and infidelity. WelcomeMichelle. Hi. Good to be here.
It's great to have you here.
I've known Michelle of many,many years at a conference we
used to attend calledpsychotherapy networker, which
(01:31):
still exists. And this came outbecause this her on my podcast,
because on Facebook, I posted avideo, but I did, and I said
that I didn't believe thatstaying in a marriage was right
for children, that is, and thatthere's been research that
showed me the first two yearscan be troublesome, but that
things work out. And then,Michelle, I think you said, but
(01:53):
you you're more of an advocateto stay in the marriage.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (01:57):
Well, what I would say is that, you know, I
specialize in working withcouples who teeter on the brink
of divorce, and I would say thatalmost all of them, not all.
Some people, don't have kids,but the ones who do will almost
always say, if it weren't forthe kids, we wouldn't be here.
How a therapist responds to thatstatement, I think can make all
(02:21):
the difference in whattranspires. So for example, I
could say, well, that's notenough reason. How, for what
other in what other ways do youlove your spouse, and why else
would you want to work on thismarriage? And when people come
to therapy, they're notnecessarily sure they they want
to. And by asking that question,in a sense, it it seals the
(02:44):
deal, because they will repeattheir narrative that they that
they don't want to work on themarriage, or they're pretty sure
they don't want to work on themarriage. But if, over the
course of our working together,I say, you know, obviously you
love your kids a lot. And Iwonder, first of all, where in
your family, in your growing up,you learned about the importance
(03:07):
of family of kids and parentalrelationships. So we get to talk
about the importance of theparent child relationship. Also,
by the way, part of what I do inmy intake, where I'm gathering
demographic information is Iask, you know, how many kids do
you have? What are their names?
What are their ages? And then Isay, tell me about them. I bring
(03:29):
their presence into the room. Idon't think over the long haul,
people will only stay for thesake of the kids. But if that's
the catalyst for people sittingin my room, I tell them, I give
them kudos for really caringabout their kids' emotional well
(03:50):
being. And I guess I shouldbacktrack a little bit, because
you didn't know this. I don'tknow if you know this about why
I feel so passionate about it.
Yeah, so, so I grew up what inwhat I would call the East Coast
version of the Walton family. Iknow I'm dating myself by using
(04:11):
that reference, but you know, Ihad two parents who adored me,
two brothers who I pretty muchloved all the time. We had a
very, very close knit, extendedfamily, because my parents were
immigrants, and all of theirfamily members were near us, and
so we were family all the time.
Never saw my parents fight. Iwill never be in a therapist's
(04:34):
office lying on a couchcomplaining about my childhood,
because really, in so many ways,I thought it was incredible,
unconditional love oozed fromthe environment. And then one
day, I was a senior in highschool, and I was I was 16 years
old, and my mom called us all infor an impromptu family meeting,
which was not the norm in myfamily. So as my father and my
(04:56):
two brothers and me, we. Sheproceeded to tell us that she'd
been unhappy for 23 years in hermarriage, and that she tried to
work out her differences with myfather, and which, by the way,
keep in mind, they never fought.
So we had no idea there weredifferences. And she said, there
(05:18):
comes a time in everyone's lifewhere you have to throw in the
towel and those words even justsaying them. Now to you, Joe, it
was traumatic. It truly, trulywas traumatic. And plus, keep in
mind the timing in my life whereI was being launched into the
real world, going off tocollege, and my parents'
(05:39):
marriage was falling apart. Mynest was falling apart. And
beyond that, something in mylittle 16 year old brain
couldn't really realize at thetime, the family life as I knew
it never, ever, ever, was thesame, because my mother was the
hub of the family wheel, andwhen she decided to get a
(06:01):
divorce, she resigned from theposition, and it just truly
never was the same. So it hadthis huge impact on me in a
really, really big way. It'salmost like the carpet, the rug
was pulled from beneath me. DidI figure out how to go on with
my life? Yes. Do I considermyself damaged goods? No, had my
(06:25):
mother many times said to me,and I was very close to my
mother, even after her decisionto divorce, had my mother said
to me many, many times, listen,Michelle, if it weren't for me,
you wouldn't have a best sellingbook. She did say that. What I
said to her, is I, I'm sure Iwould have figured something
else to get passionate about,but that, as it may so, so I
(06:48):
really strongly believe that, ifthat is, that one of the reasons
that people think that they'rewilling to work or would
consider working on a marriage,bring it on, And I compliment
them for their caring about it.
Clearly, I have a zest for life.
I don't think we only have onego around. I don't think two
people should be miserable. Thatis not good for kids, but I
(07:12):
don't believe that people haveto be miserable because so much
of the time. And I know you andI probably agree with this, but
when people think that that theyhave fallen out of love, or that
they're incompatible, or thatit's just not fixable, part of
what's missing. There are skillsyou know, that it's a skill
(07:33):
deficit, and I feel armed withthose tools, and I readily share
them and so much of the time,and this is what makes me a
psychotic optimist so much ofthe time. If I don't really
focus on, should you orshouldn't you stay for the sake
of the kids, but, but can youmake your marriage a place you
(07:53):
want to be for the sake of thekids? We're off and running and
and very often, not only doestheir marriage stay intact, but
their kids have an intact home,which, of course, for me, given
my background, is a wonderful,wonderful thing.
JOE KORT (08:08):
I never knew all that that is so interesting, and I
love the way you say it. Sothat's how you got into helping
couples. Do you know, staytogether, saving marriages?
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (08:18):
Yeah, I knew I wanted to do family
therapy and so much of the Iworked at a social service
agency in the beginning of mycareer, working with social
Youth Service Bureau, workingwith adolescents and their
families and so much of thetime. What I discovered when I
would when parents were tellingme they're getting a divorce, I
(08:38):
would do what most people dobreak, teach them how to break
the news to the kids and how toget into support groups and how
to identify when the kidsstruggling. But so often in that
work, what I heard from peopleafter the divorce was that if I
only knew then what I know nowabout what it takes to make my
life work. Now, perhaps I couldhave put more energy into making
(09:03):
my marriage work and keeping ourfamily together. So that,
combined with my own emotionalstuff, made me really determined
to probably spend the rest of mylife helping couples avoid
divorce, if possible.
JOE KORT (09:19):
Yeah, what you have, you've dedicated book after book
and articles, but tell us howyou got into and what is a sex
starved marriage. Can youdescribe
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (09:27):
it? Sure.
So when people hear that phrasea sex starved marriage, I think
the image that they get is thatthere is either zero sex or a
certain number of times per weekthat people should be having
sex, and if they're not, as asex starved marriage. But you
know, unlike vitamins, whichthere may be a daily minimum
requirement, there is no suchthing, because people are so
(09:48):
different. But what happens inwhat I call a sex starved
marriage, one spouse, often theman, but not always the man. So
hear me on that one. Uh, isdesperately longing for more
physical closeness, more touch,more sex, more physical
affection. And the other spousethinks, what is the big deal?
(10:09):
Would you just get a life? Thisis so not a big deal, but to the
person who, in a way, their lovelanguage, their way of feeling
connected, their way of feelingsafe in the relationship is
through touch. It's a huge dealbecause it really is about
feeling wanted, about feelingloved, about feeling connected.
(10:30):
You know, a lot of times theperson with lower desire thinks
about sex in terms of, well,it's just a biological urge.
It's like scratching an itch,but it is so not that it is from
I've had the opportunity toreally listen to the people who
talk to me about what it's likewhen their spouse isn't
(10:52):
interested in being physicallyclose, and There's such a deep
sense of rejection and hurt. Andby the way, what happens in
these relationships is whenespecially, I would say, well,
actually, men and women, whenyou're the higher desired spouse
and you're hurt, you may go toyour spouse or your partner and
(11:15):
speak in a vulnerable way abouthow you're missing them, how
you'd like to be more connectedphysically, and if those
expressions of wanting moreconnection are not actually met
with positive behavior, veryquickly, the vulnerability turns
to anger, snarkiness, shuttingdown emotionally, going into a
(11:36):
Man Cave, spending more timewith one's girlfriends and anger
and irritability. Guess what?
Newsflash, it's not anaphrodisiac. The angrier, the
higher sex person is, the lessthe other person's going to want
to be with them physically, andthe less they want to be with
them physically, the angrierthey get. It truly is job
(12:00):
security for people like you andme, because they are in
opposite, opposite directions.
And the other thing, what'sreally, I don't think that
enough people, or even for thatmatter, enough therapists, talk
about is the person, generallyspeaking, again, always
exceptions, the person withhigher desire, I'm sorry, the
person with lower desirecontrols the sexual
(12:24):
relationship.
JOE KORT (12:27):
They never like to hear that too, because they feel
like they're it sounds likeyou're saying it's intentional.
It isn't, but it is the default,right? Absolutely, I
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (12:34):
always say it's not because they're mean
spirited. It's not becausethey're trying to hurt the other
person. But in essence,oftentimes, if they don't want
to be physically close, it's notgoing to happen. And then to add
on to that, not only are theysort of calling the shots
regarding in the bedroom, butthey expect their spouse to just
(12:56):
accept that. You know, if I'mnot in the mood, I'm not in the
mood, so go take a shower, andnot only that, but be
monogamous, which is really whenyou think about that, you know,
and I know Esther Perel has donea really good job of showing
that when somebody cheats and,you know, has an affair, clearly
(13:17):
there is a betrayal, but There'salso a betrayal when one person
who's less interested in sex orphysical touch has no
compassion, empathy or interestin what's such a strong need in
the other person, that isbetrayal as
JOE KORT (13:33):
well. Okay, wait, I want to just pause there,
because I'm so glad you saidthis. That never goes well when
I say that to a couple if I andI don't know, is it because I'm
a male? Is it because you'refemale that you can say it
because, generally, it's notalways, because there are men
that stop wanting to have sextoo, but it's in general, in my
room, it's the woman. And when Ibring up, it is a betrayal. They
(13:56):
do not like to hear that.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (13:57):
And you know what, Joe, I don't even I
don't say that, but what the wayI work, the way that I get into
that? I mean, I'm saying this toyou and to the people who are
listening, because it's true.
But when I'm working withpeople, the way I try to develop
more compassion isn'tnecessarily by confrontation to
the person who has lower desire.
(14:18):
I turn to the person who hashigher desire, and I say, tell
me what that's like for you whenyou are reaching out, when you
want to be close, and she's justabsolutely not interested. In
fact, I'll tell you a littlestory, and this was actually my
TEDx talk. And this is, this isa true story, working with a
couple for quite a while. He's areally laid back guy. Never
(14:38):
complains about anything. Ithink they're going along
swimmingly. And then one day, asyou know, they wait to the five
minute, the last five minutes ofthe session, to tell me what's
really going on. He says, yes,there is something I would like
to talk about. I said, Great.
What's that? He said. He takes adeep breath, and he says, Really
there are, there's only a twohour window of opportunity. On
like Friday night from 10 to 12that I know she might be
(15:03):
interested in sex, and if sheisn't, I know I shouldn't even
bother trying until next week,because it's not going to
happen. And he said it, youcould tell he was distressed,
but I looked at her, and she hada smile of recognition on her
face, and so I said to him, Iknow, I know she's smiling, and
she goes, Yeah, that's me. IThat is what I do. But I noticed
(15:25):
that you're not Could you talk alittle bit about what's going on
with you as you describe this?
And I know it was really hardfor him, but what he said was,
he turned to her, and he said,you know when we're in bed
together and I reach out to you,and you're not into it. And then
you, you reject me, and thenyou, all of a sudden, you go to
(15:48):
sleep, and I hear you breathing.
And there I am in bed alone,staring up at the ceiling, and
all I can tell you is that it isthe loneliest feeling in the
world lying next to you in bed.
And to this woman's credit, sheshe took it in, she started to
tear up, and she grabbed hishand, and you know what she said
(16:12):
to him, every time you touch me,I do this internal search, like,
Am I in the mood? Am I not inthe mood? I never really think
about what's going on with you,that you're reaching out to me.
Never Wow, and I promise I'mgoing to do better. And he
started to cry. And Joe,honestly, I started such a
(16:35):
touching moment. And thebeautiful thing that happened is
she really, really did do whatshe said she was going to do,
and here's what she learned inthe process. And I actually
learned this too in my own workwith couples. It took some years
to figure it out, but I'm goingto say things to you that I know
you already know, but maybepeople who are listening don't.
(16:57):
So the human sexual responsecycle had been thought of having
four stages. You know, the firstcomes desire, meaning you could
be doing just about anything,and you all of a sudden have
this random lusty thought, andyou get really horny, and you go
to find your partner. The secondstage is you start touching and
you feel aroused. The thirdstage is, if your body's working
(17:19):
properly, you have an orgasm,and the fourth stage is
resolution, where your body goesback to its normal resting
state. But here's what shefigured out, and here's
thankfully, what researchfigure. Researchers figured out
a long time ago for millions ofpeople, and most of them are
women, but not all stages oneand two are actually reversed,
(17:40):
meaning they have to be arousedbefore your brain goes, ooh,
this is fun. I want to do this.
I like this. And so many ofthese people have really, really
satisfying sexual experiences. Ialways ask them, Do you have an
orgasm? And they go, yeah. Andthen, not only that, but I saw
how happy my spouse was and somuch nicer to me, and we got
(18:02):
along so much better for therest of the week. And so it's
been a misconception when womenin my practice say, you know, I
think I need to go to the doctorbecause I have no sexual desire.
I have low sexual desire. Maybethat's true. There could be
physiological things happening,but maybe they're misconstruing
what desire is about. For them,they do not have spontaneous
(18:26):
desire, but they do haveresponsive desire, and that is
desire no less viable thanspontaneous desire. So she this
woman discovered that, and itbecame a whole new thing for
JOE KORT (18:43):
her. I love that for them, and it is such a powerful
story. What? How do you help thecouples bridge that gap when
there is that desirediscrepancy? That's one way you
do other things.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (18:53):
Part of part of what I mean, it's sort
of multifaceted, right? So partof it is encouraging the low
desire spouse, again, often, butnot always, the woman to be
after she hears the heartachethat has been causing her
partner, to not feel connectedto her, to to allow herself to
(19:17):
be receptive to her partner'sadvances. More often, even
starting from a neutral startingpoint, even if it wasn't on her
brain to see if this is asatisfying experience for her as
well, and also the relationshipbenefits as a result. So, so
that's one piece of it. Theother piece of it is that, you
(19:40):
know, so often, thestereotypical dynamic which we
all learned about in graduateschool is that, you know, women
need to feel close and connectedemotionally before they're
interested in sex, and men needto feel close and connected
physically before they'reinterested in investing their
energy talking or. Spending timetogether, or even sometimes
(20:02):
being invested in being in thehome and doing the things that
need to be done. That's wherepeople have a standoff. So in
identifying what is, what isthis woman's love language? What
does this guy have to do, whichdoesn't include buying new sexy
lingerie or turning on somethinglike pornography, or reading a
(20:26):
sexy romance novel, somethingcompletely different from for a
lot of women, it's completelydifferent. You know, just, just
help me three times a week makedinner. You know, just help me
put the kids to bed. Just ask mewith interest, how was How was
your day? And let me talk aboutmy feelings without telling me
(20:47):
what to do. You know, it'sdifferent for everybody, but
being able to identify that in alot of ways that is that's the
aphrodisiac for her. And once hesees it with that frame. He's, I
think he's much more willing toengage in those behaviors. The
other thing that I that hasreally influenced my work, in a
(21:10):
very big way, is The Five LoveLanguages. You know, I teach my
couples about the five lovelanguages. I have my own
exercise that I do and for and,you know, I'm happy to share it
with you sometime, but it's toodetailed. But what comes from
that exercise is, for so manypeople, it's the first time that
(21:30):
they connect the dots that he'snot doing that because I'm not
doing this. She's not doing thatbecause I'm not doing this, we
have them grade themselves onhow well they think they've been
showing love in their partner'slove language in the last
however long it might be. Andit's the first time people give
(21:53):
themselves bad grades, becauseup until that moment, it's
always their partner's fault.
That's the reason I haven't beendoing real giving or showing
love, but they recognize thereciprocity, and to me, that's
when the magic begins.
JOE KORT (22:12):
That's so nice. Let's talk about the infidelity.
Because I know people are goingto want to hear and you and I,
I'm sure you've heard it too.
People say and they'll say itall the time. When I do social
media, they never work. Youcan't get back together. You'll
never trust again. You can'tbridge the gap, but you don't
see it as a deal breaker. I'msure, if you're all about
divorce pristine. So can youshare your wisdom about how can
couples come back frominfidelity?
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (22:36):
Stop reading the internet first. It's
like, you know, it's because I'ma systemic thinker. I know that
a lot of my message, I'm havingto deal with the other stuff
that they're getting. I had acouple yesterday, Joe, they
literally read 25 books beforethey got to me on infidelity. I
(22:56):
didn't even know there were thatmany. But no, they they did
their homework, but also, andmost of them were either sort of
unbiased about staying in yourmarriage or pro marriage. They
ended up with me because that'swhat they wanted to do, I mean,
in terms of pro marriage. Butshe started sharing with me some
of the stuff that she wasreading on the internet and even
(23:17):
in some books about once, justlike you said, once a cheater,
always a cheater, you know, cutyour losses. Get out of there,
you know. And I think it has tostart first of all, I think it's
really helpful for people to gethelp, and especially if they've
been ruminating and not in notgetting past certain impasses.
(23:42):
It's really important to gethelp. I'm also really biased
about getting help from someonewho believes staying in the
marriage is possible. I recentlyhad, I'm going to be working
with somebody next week who'sbeen to a number of therapists
who have all she said all thetherapists told me to get out of
(24:03):
this marriage. That's a
JOE KORT (24:04):
big thing. Do you know that's a big thing? Because
they're having their own bias,and maybe they've been cheated
on. If you've ever gone andyou've probably done workshops,
I've been in them, when thepresenter says, How many of you
have been touched or experiencedinfidelity? Three quarters of
the room,
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (24:18):
I know, yeah, we'd have a completely
divorced world if we went withthat, right? Um, so I think, I
guess part of what I'm sayingright now, and I can hear we're
kindred spirits about this, ithas to start with the belief
that it's possible, I agree, andand it actually it becomes a
(24:39):
self fulfilling prophecy. Sothat's part of it. The other
part of it is for most couples,especially if it's like a first
time affair. I mean, it's thefirst affair in their marriage.
They are their lives are turnedso upside down, they don't know
which end is up. And I know youknow this, but it is so
(24:59):
traumatizing to. The betrayedspouse so often. They can't eat,
they can't sleep, they can'tfunction, they can't go to work,
they can't take care of thekids. They think they're going
crazy. They think they're goingto die. They hope they're going
to die. It's really intense. Andone of the I would say, failures
(25:21):
of a lot of people, therapistswho aren't trained or haven't
had a lot of experience, thisisn't just you need more than
garden variety therapy skills,because you don't just ask
people how they feel aboutthings. These are people who
need guidance. They needcoaching. They need specifics.
And I don't know about you, Joe,but when I was in graduate
(25:43):
school, was all about helpingpeople discover the answers.
When sometimes people haveanswers within and sometimes
they need to say, Don't do that.
Do this instead. This isn'tworking for you. I'm curious. Do
you do that? Do I do people tell
JOE KORT (26:01):
Yeah, I'm not asking them always to dig inside
themselves at all. I have lotsof resources,
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (26:05):
yes, and actually, during the times when
I've done training fortherapists, and therapists have
come up to me during breaks sooften, what I've heard is, you
know, I hear you talking, and Iwant you to know that I just
lost a client last week, and Icontacted them to find out what
was missing, and they said, Younever told us what to do. We
(26:27):
just came in week after weekafter week talking about the
same stuff, right? So, so I I'mvery programmatic, you know, in
my work with couples, in in mybook healing from infidelity,
and now I'm excited because Ijust did an audio book. People
have been saying, you've got tomake an audio book. So now I
have there are steps that allboth the betrayed and the
(26:52):
unfaithful spouse must take toget to the other side, and I'm
very clear with them, first ofall, normalizing any feelings
that happen within the betrayedspouse so that they don't it's
bad enough they're going throughthis hard time and then to lay
judgment another layer of thiswhole thing so that they know
they're not going crazy. Theyknow they're going to come out
(27:15):
the other side. And by the way,this is I'm telling you this
because this happened yesterday.
I was it was pretty overwhelmingfor me. I sometimes think the
most important thing therapistscan do with all of our fancy
skills is just to remind peoplethey're going to get through
this and they're going to comeout the other side. And of
course, they need tools to getthere, normalizing the intense
(27:35):
emotions, normalizing theradical ups and downs that are
inevitable, really, reallyteaching the unfaithful spouse
how to sometimes, unfaithfulspouses, I mean, they want, they
really want their spouse to feelbetter. They just don't know
(27:57):
how. Yes, really don't know howand some and that often pisses
off the betrayed spouse, becausethey think they should know what
to do. No, they why would theyknow what to do? So so really
offering concrete suggestions tothe unfaithful spouse, for
example, I'm very big on extremetransparency, doing whatever the
(28:19):
betrayed spouse needs you to do,including you know passwords and
closing social media accounts,making sure your spouse knows
where you are at all times. Andmy New York upbringing comes in
handy, because if someone saysto me, well, then I feel like
(28:40):
I'm in jail. You know what I sayto them? You know, no one wants
to be in jail for the rest oftheir lives. We're not talking
about this is how you shouldlive the rest of your life.
You're going through atransitional period. There's a
crisis here, and when there's acrisis, you have to behave in
different ways. And you can, youcan decide not to do it, but I'm
going to tell you, if you don't,and you're not answering the
(29:03):
questions fully and honestly,you will not get to the other
side. So you
JOE KORT (29:10):
exactly, I love that you're saying this. I say
exactly you do that too. I loveit. Yes, it's validating to hear
you say this. I will say,though, the one thing I see a
lot of almost every day, becauseI deal a lot with infidelity
too, is that the person who isinvolved, who did have the
affair, says, can't you just getover this? I'm done just why do
we have to keep resurrecting it?
And I have to say to them,that's you're going to have to
keep resurrecting it untilthey're no longer needing to
(29:32):
resurrect it. Absolutely, youknow.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (29:35):
And I'm hard on them too. I really get
that you're ready to move on. Ireally get that there's a pretty
big chance that you feel so muchbetter now that you are not
being duplicitous and tellinglies, and you've stepped into
the light. Well, guess what?
Your spouse is in the darkestperiod of his or her life, and
you're on two separate journeys.
(30:00):
And if you need to be patient,and not just now, not just six
months from now, but even maybe10 years from now, your spouse
might something might triggeryour spouse and have a question
or get sad, and you need to findexercise that empathy muscle,
and you know, and show yourspouse that you're there for the
(30:22):
long haul. So as you can hear,you know, me talking to you. I'm
directing traffic, and I'm veryclear with people. If you do
these things, you will get tothe other side. I had my couple
yesterday. She found out thather husband had had, I don't
know, maybe six or seven affairsduring the brief two year period
(30:47):
that they were together beforethey got married. She found out
three days after they gotmarried, as they were driving to
a vacation together, that allthis had happened three days
after she got married, and bythe end of the two days, they
were figuring out how they couldrenew their vows. So it's it's
(31:08):
possible, it's more thanpossible.
JOE KORT (31:10):
I love that you're so hopeful I could talk with you
another half hour, maybe we'llbring you back. What else would
you like to hear before we endthat you didn't say that you
wanted to make sure you heardpeople hear about
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (31:19):
your work?
Well, I mean, what comes to mindright away is that I, you know
you, and I've talked about this,and I think you should do more
of it, but I no longer even knowhow to do hourly sessions, you
know, because I have found alonger format of working with
people, especially not just infidelity, but almost any
difficult kind of problem, youknow, there's no there's no bell
(31:44):
ringing, there's no kid tuggingat their sleeve, there are no
distractions. You really canpeel away the layers and have
comfortable time to do that. SoI encourage people to think
about the the format can reallymake a difference in terms of
the outcomes, right? Intensives,I do two day intensives. When
(32:07):
people want to work with me, Isee them for two they fly in. I
see them for two days. And it'sit, you know, it's a wonderful,
wonderful experience. And theand the only other thing is, you
know, this whole issue of ofhope, um, no matter what the
problem is, no matter what itis, it's so easy to fall into
(32:30):
the trap of believing that howyou feel in the moment is how
you will feel forever. And thething I've learned about
feelings is they're transient,and that the thing I've learned
about helping people is, if yougo to a therapist who doesn't
believe change is possible, youneed to go to a different
JOE KORT (32:52):
I love that. I can't believe how. I mean, we barely
never sat and talked so muchlike this. I mean, I've read
your stuff, but we really thinka lot of like, I love everything
you're saying.
MICHELE WEINER-DAVIS (33:02):
That's great. Well, I felt connected to
you on a you know, we never gotspecific. But I I love watching
your little snippets on Tiktokand getting to know you that way
too. So how can people find you?
Probably the best way would be.
Well, the marriageintensive.comis one way. As you said,
(33:23):
divorcebusting.com is anotherway. And my I'm always happy to
answer people's email, which ismichelle@divorcebusting.com
JOE KORT (33:31):
so that's how they can find me. Awesome, awesome,
great. I'm so glad to have hadyou. Thank you so much for being
on the show. Let's connectagain. Thank you for sure. So if
you're listening, you can hearmore of my podcast at Smart sex,
smartlove.com it's also all overon Spotify, on Apple. You can
also follow me on Twitter, onTiktok, Instagram and Facebook.
(33:52):
You can also and everywhere I'mat Dr. Joe court, D, R, J, o, e,
K, O, R T, and you can also goto my website. Jokecourt.com,
thanks for listening, and we'llsee you next time you.
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