October 7, 2025 • 27 mins
Have you ever stared at a blinking cursor, knowing what you want to say… but not quite sure how to say it in a way that actually connects with your audience?
Today’s episode is packed with gold, especially if you’ve ever wondered how to make your copy feel more you—more clear, more compelling, and more human.
I’m joined by Jill Pavlov, a copywriter, brand strategist, and improv coach who helps entrepreneurs stop sounding like everyone else and start sounding like the best version of themselves. She’s got a background in comedy, and a no-fluff approach to messaging that truly resonates.
Whether you’re writing a sales page, planning your next launch, or finally trying to get your About page to not sound like a resume—this is the conversation you didn’t know you needed.
Connect with Jill Pavlov
Jill Pavlov is a copywriter, brand strategist, and improv coach who helps entrepreneurs say what they actually mean—clearly, cleverly, and with a voice that sounds like them on their best day.
With a background in comedy and training from The Second City, Jill also leads improv workshops that boost confidence, clarity, and on-your-feet thinking for business owners, creatives, and teams. Her approach blends marketing savvy with the spontaneity of the stage, helping people show up more boldly—on the mic, in meetings, and online.
Whether she’s writing your homepage, coaching your delivery, or giving feedback on your tagline, Jill brings equal parts strategy and sparkle. If you need words that work (and a good laugh while you get them), she’s your girl.
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-pavlov-63aa7585/
Instagram - @comedyjill
Website - copy-pop.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carrie Saunders (00:43):
Have you ever stared at a blinking cursor,
knowing what you want to say,but not quite sure how to say it
in a way that actually connectswith your audience?
Today's episode is packed withgold, especially if you've ever
wondered how to make your copyfeel more you, more clear, more
compelling and more human.
I'm joined by Jill Pavlov, acopywriter, brand strategist and
(01:04):
improv coach, who helpsentrepreneurs stop sounding like
everyone else and startsounding like the best version
of themselves.
She's got a background incomedy and a no-fluff approach
to messaging that trulyresonates, and it was such a
wonderful conversation.
So, whether you're writing asales page, planning your next
launch, or trying to finallywrite your about page and make
(01:25):
it not sound like a resume, thisis a conversation that you
didn't know.
You actually need Struggling toturn website traffic into real
sales.
You're not alone and you don'thave to figure it out all
yourself.
Welcome to Smarter OnlineBusiness, the podcast, for
course.
Creators, coaches ande-commerce entrepreneurs who
want their websites to convertvisitors into buyers without the
(01:47):
tech overwhelm.
I'm your host, Carrie Saunders,a website strategist and
conversion expert with over 20years of experience.
Each episode delivers simple,proven strategies to help you
generate more revenue and makeyour website, your smartest
sales tool.
Welcome back to the show Today.
We have a special guest with us, and her name is Jill Pavlov.
She is a copywriter, brandstrategist and improv coach who
(02:11):
helps entrepreneurs say whatthey actually mean clearly,
cleverly and with a voice thatsounds like them on their best
day.
So welcome to the show today,jill.
Jill Pavlov (02:21):
Thank you so much for having me, kari.
I'm so happy to be here to betalking about some of my
favorite things in the worldimprov and copy strategy and
making people be the absolutebest, most badass version of
themselves.
Carrie Saunders (02:37):
And I love how you marry the two, the improv
and copywriting.
So tell us a little bit moreabout you and how did that come
to be?
And you know some backgroundabout you.
Jill Pavlov (02:48):
Yeah, it's such a crazy journey, right?
You would never think likeimprov and copy doesn't quite
connect, and somehow all of mycombined experiences have really
led me to this point.
I've been a theater kid sincebefore I could talk I was
singing, I swear.
So I took my first actinglessons when I was in fifth
(03:10):
grade.
That's where I learned aboutimprov and I was a theater major
through college.
Right out of college I got intoentertainment reporting and
that's where I really learnedeven more about leaning into
your confidence, leaning intoyour power, also the power of
being concise in your messaging,because when you interview a
pop star who just keeps ramblingand rambling, you learn very
(03:32):
quickly that no matter howfamous someone is, they can
still be very boring.
So through my entertainmentreporting I learned so much and
somehow fell into the marketingworld, where I learned what the
word copywriter meant.
It did not mean trademarking orpatents or anything in the legal
world, like I had originallythought, and thank goodness,
(03:54):
because you absolutely would notwant me, jill Pavlov, near any
of your legal documents if youvalue them.
However, you do want me nearyour creativity, because that's
what I bring to the table.
So after all these years ofbeing in theater, entertainment,
reporting, marketing, I reallystarted to realize that what a
lot of us struggle with, andespecially women, is being able
(04:16):
to talk about what we do in away that gets people excited for
it.
So that brought me to this ahamoment of like wow.
To be able to do that, you needA confidence to speak publicly,
b, a lot of clarity surroundingyour message and, c, just a
much branding goodness.
(04:36):
To really help entrepreneurs,but more specifically, female
entrepreneurs, just feel soconfident and proud to walk into
a room, whether it's virtualnetworking, online networking,
(05:00):
pitching to investors and sayingwhat they bring to the table.
Carrie Saunders (05:05):
That sounds so valuable and as you're speaking
there, I'm just like, wow, Ijust need to learn so much from
you, because I, as a female,sometimes it can be really hard
to have that confidence to beable to speak up, and I'm a
female engineer with twoengineering degrees, so I was
like the odd ball in college.
So you know, it was sometimeshard for me to speak up, even
(05:27):
though, like the guys didn'tbother me at all.
Like I I could care less that Iwas in a room full of guys.
I was such a tomboy as a kid.
But it's still hard tosometimes say your opinions,
especially depending upon, Ifeel, like also your background
as a child, like how, what, whathappened to you as a child.
Like I know, for me I have alot of childhood trauma that
makes it hard for me to speak up.
(05:48):
So I bet that you can helpladies like that also get past
that and really speak what's ontheir mind and communicate
better.
Jill Pavlov (05:58):
Absolutely.
I mean, all of this probablystems from my own childhood
trauma as well.
Even though I was in theater ata young age, the stage was
really the only place that Ifelt allowed to take up space.
Like one of my dad's favoritelike funny Jill stories is about
him watching me in first grade,like let all these kids budge
(06:19):
in front of me in line and Ididn't say anything because I
didn't want to ruffle anyfeathers.
I was the kid in middle schoolwho was afraid to sneeze in
class because I didn't want tomake a noise.
Feathers I was the kid inmiddle school who was afraid to
sneeze in class because I didn'twant to make a noise and have
people look at me.
So there was some sense of notbeing worthy of people's
attention that I had to reallyget past.
(06:39):
And you say you're in anindustry that's very heavily
male-dominated, as a lot of usare, even just being in the
entrepreneur community.
There's far more maleentrepreneurs than female
entrepreneurs and there'ssomething about males I think
it's rooted in society and whatthey tell us where they are not
afraid to take up space Likethey are not.
Women are told to shrinkthemselves.
(07:00):
If you've ever sat on a crowdedbus.
If you're next to a woman,you'll notice she's like this If
you're next to a man.
There's a reason that the wordmanspreading exists because
they're not afraid to take upspace in the physical, in the
literal.
It's just how we've been taughtas a society.
So women are taught to be seen,to not be heard.
This is what is ingrained in us.
(07:21):
It's not just my childhoodtrauma or your childhood trauma.
It's a collective, societalchildhood trauma, and it sucks
because, as women, we havebrilliant ideas that are just
being forgot about or we don'teven bring them up because we're
afraid and we need to take ourpower back Absolutely.
Carrie Saunders (07:43):
I completely agree, and we can even like
translate this into what we puton our websites and in our
messaging too, because I feellike when we're, when we have a
hard time speaking up verbally,that can come across also in
written form, and I know youhelp with copywriting and things
like that as well.
So I know some people are likekind of blurry on what
(08:07):
copywriting is.
They kind of know what it is,but they really don't.
So let's transition into thecopywriting part.
How do you, what exactly is it,and how do you connect it to
your branding and marketing andmake it more of a holistic thing
and more confidence behind it?
Because it sounds like youwould bring the confidence to
behind all that.
Jill Pavlov (08:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Copywriting is in its mostsimple form.
It's the words that you use inyour advertising your digital
advertising, your printadvertising, all that stuff.
But that's like a really dumbeddown form of what copywriting
is.
At a higher level, copywritingis about persuading your
(08:46):
audience to take the action thatyou want them to, and when I
say that, I don't mean that inan icky way.
This isn't like we're trying tomanipulate people to do
something.
We're just trying to show themhow much they need whatever it
is that we're selling.
And so, with copywriting, youreally want to be very
intentional about the words thatyou say.
(09:08):
You need to be concise, becausepeople aren't going to read a
bunch of fluff, but you alsoreally need to use your words to
paint a picture.
A lot of people want to makesocial posts or on their website
and just talk about we havethese features or this is what
we do.
This is why we are great, andthey're forgetting to put the
(09:29):
customer or the client into thestory.
They're just talking about them, them, them, which, yes, I'm
sure you have like amazing stuffthat you sell, but unless your
customer feels like they're partof your story, it's not going
to land with them.
So you have to paint thepicture for the customer of what
their life looked like beforeand what their life will look
(09:50):
like after they work with you oruse your product or whatever it
is.
And that's the magic ofcopywriting is using these words
, these hooks, these calls toaction which is when you say
comment or like or whatever itis to get people to become part
of your story.
Copywriting essentially justcomes down to connection and
(10:13):
conversation.
People want to make copywritingout to be really difficult,
which it is.
It's not easy, otherwise wewouldn't be paying people to do
it for us.
But at the end of the day, it'sreally just humans having
another conversation with otherhumans.
We're just conversing with eachother.
We're not selling each other.
We're talking to each other tofind out do you need me and how
(10:36):
can I help you?
We don't have to overcomplicateit.
Carrie Saunders (10:40):
And that's a lot of what we talk about on the
podcast too.
On other episodes that are evenjust my solo episodes and I
talked to the fact that we needto be having a conversation with
our potential customer on ourwebsite and we need to be
talking about those benefits andreally connect with them,
because that's what one makes abetter customer relationship
(11:08):
with the business, but it alsomakes them feel seen and heard
in a natural, good way, not in amanipulative way as you said.
We don't want to be that typeof salesperson, but we want to
make sure that we are lettingpeople know what benefits we
have, because our businesses area blessing to others when we
(11:29):
solve their problems or bringthem joy, and I like to try to
remind our entrepreneurs tolisten, to hear is we're selling
to be a blessing, and I hearthat in your message too.
Jill Pavlov (11:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
A coach that I've worked withalways says that selling is
service, and when you come fromit, at that point it doesn't
really even feel like sellinganymore.
And it feels like selling whenyou're talking to someone who's
not maybe your ideal client andyou have to push them on it and
in that case you may just haveto let them go.
They're probably not right foryou.
But when you're talking tosomeone who feels like a really
(12:04):
good fit for your product orservice, it does feel like
helping them versus selling them, and that's what makes it
natural, that's what makes itauthentic and there's a lot of
patience that goes into it.
Right, because you can't just belike hey, I saw that you liked
my post.
Here's my link to join myprogram.
We want to be quick because wedon't have a lot of time.
(12:27):
A lot of us are one womanoperations.
We want to be quick, but youhave to take that extra time to
get personal with it and talk topeople, because that's the only
way that you're really going tofind out what they need.
You can't assume what they need.
Carrie Saunders (12:41):
Well, and I actually read something the
other day that was like you know, sometimes we try to sell to
people who aren't ready to besell sold to.
They're trying to gatherinformation first, and so I
think I think that's what I hear, some of what you're saying
there, and when we're using ourwords on our website too.
You know, we've kind of touchedon this a little bit, but
there's a bit of psychologybehind it.
So how do we ethically work inthat solid, that psychology
(13:04):
behind it?
So how do we ethically work inthat psychology behind our
copywriting?
Jill Pavlov (13:07):
Yes, my last name is Pavlov, for a reason For
anyone listening that doesn'tknow the significance of the
last name, pavlov.
Dr Ivan Pavlov was apsychologist who studied human
conditioning, and I love that,because copywriting, essentially
, is just conditioning ourcustomers.
We're conditioning them to seeour email address and know that
(13:30):
it's going to be a fire email,not something that we want to
delete.
We're conditioning them to knowthat if we post something, it's
something that they're going toread because time and time
again we give them value.
So there's a lot ofpsychological triggers that you
can use to kind of provokeemotion or action in people.
I would say one of my favoriteof those is social proof,
(13:52):
because I don't know about you,but I hate parting with my money
.
I like to keep my money.
So if I'm going to make a bigpurchase, like working with a
coach or something like that,I'm going to do my homework, and
part of that homework isfeeling assured that the money
that I'm spending is going toget me the results that I want
to get.
And that happens by readingother people's testimonials.
(14:14):
Before I buy anything on Amazon, I look at their reviews.
Have people been returning this?
It's such a natural thing whenyou go to a restaurant, you
probably go on Yelp and look uptheir reviews.
So when you can provide proofwhich comes in the form of, like
, testimonials or, um, you knowpeople joining your workshops,
when you can show people thatother people have been there and
(14:37):
worked with you or bought yourproduct and they've gotten the
results, that's when peoplestart to trust you and that
credibility builds and they feela little safer about giving you
their money.
So social proof is really huge.
It creates a lot of authority.
And then urgency urgency andFOMO, fear of missing out.
(14:58):
And again there's a really easyway to slide into unethical and
icky with FOMO and urgency.
Like if you're saying we onlyhave one day left of the sale,
but really you don't, well,that's icky.
Don't lie.
We don't ever want to lie withany of the psychological
triggers, but there is a way tolike really naturally trigger
someone's FOMO in a way that'slike, man, I really do need this
(15:20):
and I don't want to miss out.
Other people are gettingresults.
I want results too.
And again, that that's not icky, because at the end of the day,
we're just trying to helppeople get results and we need
to convince them that they'regoing to get those results.
If you know that you can helpsomeone, it's, it's a service
again.
Carrie Saunders (15:39):
So do you have any other tips for like
psychology?
How can we work in psychology abit, because I know that that
can really especially if doneright and done ethically, you
know, that can really helpconvey what our products or
services can do for the personand how they can benefit them so
that they can make a good,informed decision on there.
(15:59):
And I mean really.
I think that copywriting andpsychology behind it and all the
things that we're talking aboutis helping the potential
customer make an importantdecision so they can make the
best decision for them.
So what are some other littletips that we can add in some
psychology there?
Jill Pavlov (16:16):
Yeah Well, I always take tips from being a theater
person and being an actress.
And to be an actress, when youjump into a role, you have to
figure out what that character'smotivations are.
You have to figure out whatmakes them tick.
So I do that anytime I'mwriting copy.
I put myself in the role of thecustomer, the ideal client, and
think what would I want to hear, what would bring me value,
(16:38):
what would make me want to buyor part with my money?
It's really about puttingyourself in that other person's
shoes and you have to be reallyhonest with yourself when you do
that.
Right, you can't put yourselfin someone else's shoes and be
like, yeah, if I saw this postof mine, I think it's amazing,
because I'm amazing and I don'tthink a lot of us look at
ourselves that way.
We probably go the opposite.
We're probably like I suck, Isuck.
(16:59):
So you have to meet yourself inthe middle and be really honest
about who you are and like thequality of copy that you're
putting out and you know, takeyour ego out of it a little bit
Really, like, think as thecustomer, like, leave no parts
of you.
Think as the customer and belike would I respond to this
(17:19):
email, really put yourself thereand, if not just like, go piece
by piece.
What as an ideal client do Ireally really want?
I don't want the features, Iwant the benefits.
Like you said, I want theresults.
What am I getting you want totouch?
This is why it's so important toreally truly know your ideal
(17:41):
customer, and I actuallyprobably didn't do this well
enough until recently.
This year I dove in and this iswhere ChatGPT also is, and we
haven't really brought it upthat much.
But this is where ChatGPT canbecome an amazing thought
partner for you.
I will never get on record andsay copy-paste what ChatGPT says
as far as copywriting goes, butI will 100% go on record and
(18:03):
say that ChatGPT can be one ofthe best thought partners ever.
So talk to it about your idealcustomer and what you're doing
and get a really solid profile.
Go deep on those questions andfrom there it becomes a lot
easier to write your copy,because that's when you'll
really know what it is that yourcustomers are truly, truly
looking for.
Carrie Saunders (18:23):
Well, I've actually done that.
I think it's like two years agoor maybe one, I started using
ChatGPT to really get a goodidea of who my ideal customer is
, even though we've been inbusiness over 20 some years.
You know, I kind of fell intothe business and it happened on
accident and I didn't reallyhave to market it until the past
five years or so.
So I did use ChatGPT for thatand I was amazed especially if
(18:45):
you prompt it properly how muchit can come up with and all the
things I read.
I was like, yeah, that totallymakes logical sense, but I
wouldn't have thought about itwithout having that conversation
with chat GPT.
It's actually one of the thingswe do in our course, that we
have here at our business, and Iactually have been using chat
GPT for the past year or so alot when I'm brainstorming and I
(19:10):
know you touched on, you knowyou don't really want to copy
and paste chat GPT for yourwriting, but what would be the
appropriate way to use chat GPTwhen you're trying to do writing
, when you're trying to docopywriting and trying to show
your voice a bit better and talkto your ideal customer better?
Jill Pavlov (19:27):
Yeah, it's ChatGPT.
Its outputs are only as good asits inputs.
So if you're having a I don'tknow why yarn is the first thing
that came to my mind today.
But if you're having a yarnsale for your craft business,
you don't just want to put intoChatGPT.
I am having a yarn sale for mycraft business, write me an
(20:02):
email.
That's a horrible prompt.
Chatg GPT has to get to know youjust like a real copywriter,
would you know?
I mean, when I work withclients, I would say it takes me
a good two to three months toreally nail down a brand voice,
because everyone's voice andtheir nuances are so different.
Chat GPT isn't any different.
It needs some time to kind ofpick up on like oh no, I don't
(20:25):
like using the word bad-ass, oh,but I do love using the word
diva.
Let's use diva at any chance wecan get.
It needs time to process thosethings and it needs strategy.
You have to give ChatGPT thestrategy because otherwise
ChatGPT we have to remember it'sa robot, so it takes everything
that you say very literally andit's not just going to come up
with an email strategy becauseyou say write an email.
(20:47):
If you use the AIDA framework,which I teach, which is
attention, interest, desire,action.
That could be a good prompt toput into ChatGPT.
Use the AIDA framework in anemail about my yarn sale going
out to makers who specialize incrocheting baby onesies.
Get specific with ChatGPT andthat's how you're going to get
(21:11):
the best outputs and always gothrough and re-humanize it.
There's hardly ever going to bean area where you can take copy
and directly paste it.
You're always going to have togo through and edit for
humanness.
Carrie Saunders (21:29):
And speaking of humanness, I find that even if
I'm not using chat GPT,sometimes when I'm trying to
write something I feel tooformal to you know, I'm writing
to my English teacher too, kindof robotic ish.
So how do we make our copy abit more human too?
Because that's part of being agood copywriter and having good
copyright on our webpages.
Jill Pavlov (21:50):
Yeah, say it out loud.
Having good copyright on ourwebpages.
Yeah, say it out loud.
Like sometimes, I'll.
If you say it out loud, yourealize how stiff it sounds.
You're like, oh, I would neversay that in real life.
So then try to think about well, how would you say it in real
life and then write that?
It's like if you were going tosay like um coming with an
example, like um coming with anexample like unleash your
(22:11):
fullest.
Unleash your fullest potentialin your business, I would never
walk up to someone and say like,hey, I really want to help you
unleash your fullest potential.
I can't even say it, so ofcourse, I would never say it,
but I might come up and be likehey, I noticed that you have a
really strong brand and I feellike I could really help you
(22:33):
take it to the next level bylike making your message even
stronger, something like that.
It's more specific, it's morepersonal, it sounds more normal.
So just talk it out loud anddon't be afraid to get messy
with it, like I just got reallymessy and sloppy and like I
wasn't embarrassed for onesecond about tripping over my
words, because it's a normalthing that humans do.
So we have to remember it'sokay to get messy and it's okay
(22:55):
to fail and just talk it out andsomething natural will come
from it.
Carrie Saunders (23:00):
When I feel like the tripping up your words
kind of helped.
You realize, you know, ofcourse it was an example that
wasn't a good one, but you know,it's kind of a natural way to
say oh yeah, this doesn't makesense for me to say this
verbally.
So I love that simple tip ofjust literally saying it out
loud.
Maybe go in a closet or yourbathroom if you're embarrassed
to say it out loud.
But, like you know, say it outloud.
(23:20):
I'm going to use that tip forsure, because I know that.
You know, when we get busy it'sso easy to not like double
check things like that to makesure it sounds human, it sounds
like you.
Jill Pavlov (23:33):
It's so easy to miss that step, it's so easy
because, again, we are so busyLike some of us are one person
operations and you know,sometimes you just want to get
that email out the door but weforget that if you turn off
people with your copywriting,it's so hard to get them back,
like you don't want to havepeople unsubscribe to your
(23:54):
emails because they'll probablynever subscribe again.
So it is real easy to just copypaste and feel like you got it
off the to-do list.
But you just have to rememberthat sometimes you might be
doing yourself more harm thangood when you might save
yourself a few minutes but youmight lose yourself some future
customers.
Carrie Saunders (24:13):
Yes, because you basically would be losing
their trust, and trust is hardto gain back.
It's easier to gain trustinitially than to regain it
later, so I think that's areally good point there.
Yeah, so are there any finaltips that you'd like to give us
on copywriting or improv, or howdo we marry the two together to
really make this a much betterexperience for our customers?
(24:36):
Because that's the ideal thingthat we want to do in our
messaging on our website and ouremails and our social medias.
We want to make it a betterexperience and make it feel like
you and I are sitting here justtalking to each other.
Even though it's virtually,we're having a human
conversation.
So how, what are some lastminute tips that you would give
us for that?
Jill Pavlov (24:54):
Yeah, you actually said it at one point was is that
people want to be seen, andthat's so true.
When you remember that yourcustomers at the end of the day,
they really just want to beseen for the problems or the
pain points that they're having,it leads the conversation in a
very different way.
So I would just always leadwith making the customer or
(25:16):
potential client feel good, feelsafe in your care and lean into
your superpowers.
We all have them.
One of mine is making peoplefeel safe, because I'm such a
goofy dork that I think peoplejust are like okay, I can be
goofy and silly too, and I knowthat that's one of my like.
Okay, I can be goofy and sillytoo, and I know that that's one
of my superpowers, so I leaninto it.
We definitely we, like I said,everyone that's listening to
(25:39):
this.
You're here for a reason and soI'm assuming that you do have a
superpower and you may or maynot know it yet, but whatever it
is, lean into that with yourmessaging and it'll just
naturally.
Your magic will naturallyfollow.
Carrie Saunders (25:57):
I just I love that message.
I love the vibe that you givebehind all your messaging.
I think it's just so genuineand so hopeful to others.
So if people listening want tolearn a bit more about Jill and
find you on social media, whatwould be the best ways to get
ahold of you?
Jill Pavlov (26:07):
Yeah, you can connect with me personally on
Instagram.
I'm at comedy Jill and mywebsite is copy-popcom, where
you can learn about all mydifferent improv workshops and
copywriting programs and justsee some really wild pictures of
me where I pretended to be apop star.
Carrie Saunders (26:26):
That's pretty awesome.
It sounds like you're such afun person to be around.
I just love having you on ourpodcast today.
Jill Pavlov (26:33):
Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed it.
Carrie Saunders (26:37):
Wasn't that such a refreshing conversation.
I had so much fun learning fromJill and learning more about
her too.
She reminded us that good copyisn't about sounding polished,
it's about sounding real.
It's about connecting with thepeople you're meant to serve by
saying what you actually mean ina way that actually lands.
If writing has ever felt like astruggle, I hope today's
(26:59):
episode gives you the permissionto simplify, to bring more of
yourself into your words and totrust that clarity is strategy.
As always, you'll find all ofour links at our show notes for
today's podcast episode and, ifyou're loving the show, we would
be so grateful if you wouldrate and review us on your
favorite podcast player or Applepodcast.
(27:19):
That helps spread the word toother entrepreneurs just like
you who may need our messaging,and we will see you next week.
Have you ever stared at a blinking cursor,
knowing what you want to say,but not quite sure how to say it
in a way that actually connectswith your audience?
Today's episode is packed withgold, especially if you've ever
wondered how to make your copyfeel more you, more clear, more
compelling and more human.
I'm joined by Jill Pavlov, acopywriter, brand strategist and
(01:04):
improv coach, who helpsentrepreneurs stop sounding like
everyone else and startsounding like the best version
of themselves.
She's got a background incomedy and a no-fluff approach
to messaging that trulyresonates, and it was such a
wonderful conversation.
So, whether you're writing asales page, planning your next
launch, or trying to finallywrite your about page and make
(01:25):
it not sound like a resume, thisis a conversation that you
didn't know.
You actually need Struggling toturn website traffic into real
sales.
You're not alone and you don'thave to figure it out all
yourself.
Welcome to Smarter OnlineBusiness, the podcast, for
course.
Creators, coaches ande-commerce entrepreneurs who
want their websites to convertvisitors into buyers without the
(01:47):
tech overwhelm.
I'm your host, Carrie Saunders,a website strategist and
conversion expert with over 20years of experience.
Each episode delivers simple,proven strategies to help you
generate more revenue and makeyour website, your smartest
sales tool.
Welcome back to the show Today.
We have a special guest with us, and her name is Jill Pavlov.
She is a copywriter, brandstrategist and improv coach who
(02:11):
helps entrepreneurs say whatthey actually mean clearly,
cleverly and with a voice thatsounds like them on their best
day.
So welcome to the show today,jill.
Jill Pavlov (02:21):
Thank you so much for having me, kari.
I'm so happy to be here to betalking about some of my
favorite things in the worldimprov and copy strategy and
making people be the absolutebest, most badass version of
themselves.
Carrie Saunders (02:37):
And I love how you marry the two, the improv
and copywriting.
So tell us a little bit moreabout you and how did that come
to be?
And you know some backgroundabout you.
Jill Pavlov (02:48):
Yeah, it's such a crazy journey, right?
You would never think likeimprov and copy doesn't quite
connect, and somehow all of mycombined experiences have really
led me to this point.
I've been a theater kid sincebefore I could talk I was
singing, I swear.
So I took my first actinglessons when I was in fifth
(03:10):
grade.
That's where I learned aboutimprov and I was a theater major
through college.
Right out of college I got intoentertainment reporting and
that's where I really learnedeven more about leaning into
your confidence, leaning intoyour power, also the power of
being concise in your messaging,because when you interview a
pop star who just keeps ramblingand rambling, you learn very
(03:32):
quickly that no matter howfamous someone is, they can
still be very boring.
So through my entertainmentreporting I learned so much and
somehow fell into the marketingworld, where I learned what the
word copywriter meant.
It did not mean trademarking orpatents or anything in the legal
world, like I had originallythought, and thank goodness,
(03:54):
because you absolutely would notwant me, jill Pavlov, near any
of your legal documents if youvalue them.
However, you do want me nearyour creativity, because that's
what I bring to the table.
So after all these years ofbeing in theater, entertainment,
reporting, marketing, I reallystarted to realize that what a
lot of us struggle with, andespecially women, is being able
(04:16):
to talk about what we do in away that gets people excited for
it.
So that brought me to this ahamoment of like wow.
To be able to do that, you needA confidence to speak publicly,
b, a lot of clarity surroundingyour message and, c, just a
much branding goodness.
(04:36):
To really help entrepreneurs,but more specifically, female
entrepreneurs, just feel soconfident and proud to walk into
a room, whether it's virtualnetworking, online networking,
(05:00):
pitching to investors and sayingwhat they bring to the table.
Carrie Saunders (05:05):
That sounds so valuable and as you're speaking
there, I'm just like, wow, Ijust need to learn so much from
you, because I, as a female,sometimes it can be really hard
to have that confidence to beable to speak up, and I'm a
female engineer with twoengineering degrees, so I was
like the odd ball in college.
So you know, it was sometimeshard for me to speak up, even
(05:27):
though, like the guys didn'tbother me at all.
Like I I could care less that Iwas in a room full of guys.
I was such a tomboy as a kid.
But it's still hard tosometimes say your opinions,
especially depending upon, Ifeel, like also your background
as a child, like how, what, whathappened to you as a child.
Like I know, for me I have alot of childhood trauma that
makes it hard for me to speak up.
(05:48):
So I bet that you can helpladies like that also get past
that and really speak what's ontheir mind and communicate
better.
Jill Pavlov (05:58):
Absolutely.
I mean, all of this probablystems from my own childhood
trauma as well.
Even though I was in theater ata young age, the stage was
really the only place that Ifelt allowed to take up space.
Like one of my dad's favoritelike funny Jill stories is about
him watching me in first grade,like let all these kids budge
(06:19):
in front of me in line and Ididn't say anything because I
didn't want to ruffle anyfeathers.
I was the kid in middle schoolwho was afraid to sneeze in
class because I didn't want tomake a noise.
Feathers I was the kid inmiddle school who was afraid to
sneeze in class because I didn'twant to make a noise and have
people look at me.
So there was some sense of notbeing worthy of people's
attention that I had to reallyget past.
(06:39):
And you say you're in anindustry that's very heavily
male-dominated, as a lot of usare, even just being in the
entrepreneur community.
There's far more maleentrepreneurs than female
entrepreneurs and there'ssomething about males I think
it's rooted in society and whatthey tell us where they are not
afraid to take up space Likethey are not.
Women are told to shrinkthemselves.
(07:00):
If you've ever sat on a crowdedbus.
If you're next to a woman,you'll notice she's like this If
you're next to a man.
There's a reason that the wordmanspreading exists because
they're not afraid to take upspace in the physical, in the
literal.
It's just how we've been taughtas a society.
So women are taught to be seen,to not be heard.
This is what is ingrained in us.
(07:21):
It's not just my childhoodtrauma or your childhood trauma.
It's a collective, societalchildhood trauma, and it sucks
because, as women, we havebrilliant ideas that are just
being forgot about or we don'teven bring them up because we're
afraid and we need to take ourpower back Absolutely.
Carrie Saunders (07:43):
I completely agree, and we can even like
translate this into what we puton our websites and in our
messaging too, because I feellike when we're, when we have a
hard time speaking up verbally,that can come across also in
written form, and I know youhelp with copywriting and things
like that as well.
So I know some people are likekind of blurry on what
(08:07):
copywriting is.
They kind of know what it is,but they really don't.
So let's transition into thecopywriting part.
How do you, what exactly is it,and how do you connect it to
your branding and marketing andmake it more of a holistic thing
and more confidence behind it?
Because it sounds like youwould bring the confidence to
behind all that.
Jill Pavlov (08:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Copywriting is in its mostsimple form.
It's the words that you use inyour advertising your digital
advertising, your printadvertising, all that stuff.
But that's like a really dumbeddown form of what copywriting
is.
At a higher level, copywritingis about persuading your
(08:46):
audience to take the action thatyou want them to, and when I
say that, I don't mean that inan icky way.
This isn't like we're trying tomanipulate people to do
something.
We're just trying to show themhow much they need whatever it
is that we're selling.
And so, with copywriting, youreally want to be very
intentional about the words thatyou say.
(09:08):
You need to be concise, becausepeople aren't going to read a
bunch of fluff, but you alsoreally need to use your words to
paint a picture.
A lot of people want to makesocial posts or on their website
and just talk about we havethese features or this is what
we do.
This is why we are great, andthey're forgetting to put the
(09:29):
customer or the client into thestory.
They're just talking about them, them, them, which, yes, I'm
sure you have like amazing stuffthat you sell, but unless your
customer feels like they're partof your story, it's not going
to land with them.
So you have to paint thepicture for the customer of what
their life looked like beforeand what their life will look
(09:50):
like after they work with you oruse your product or whatever it
is.
And that's the magic ofcopywriting is using these words
, these hooks, these calls toaction which is when you say
comment or like or whatever itis to get people to become part
of your story.
Copywriting essentially justcomes down to connection and
(10:13):
conversation.
People want to make copywritingout to be really difficult,
which it is.
It's not easy, otherwise wewouldn't be paying people to do
it for us.
But at the end of the day, it'sreally just humans having
another conversation with otherhumans.
We're just conversing with eachother.
We're not selling each other.
We're talking to each other tofind out do you need me and how
(10:36):
can I help you?
We don't have to overcomplicateit.
Carrie Saunders (10:40):
And that's a lot of what we talk about on the
podcast too.
On other episodes that are evenjust my solo episodes and I
talked to the fact that we needto be having a conversation with
our potential customer on ourwebsite and we need to be
talking about those benefits andreally connect with them,
because that's what one makes abetter customer relationship
(11:08):
with the business, but it alsomakes them feel seen and heard
in a natural, good way, not in amanipulative way as you said.
We don't want to be that typeof salesperson, but we want to
make sure that we are lettingpeople know what benefits we
have, because our businesses area blessing to others when we
(11:29):
solve their problems or bringthem joy, and I like to try to
remind our entrepreneurs tolisten, to hear is we're selling
to be a blessing, and I hearthat in your message too.
Jill Pavlov (11:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
A coach that I've worked withalways says that selling is
service, and when you come fromit, at that point it doesn't
really even feel like sellinganymore.
And it feels like selling whenyou're talking to someone who's
not maybe your ideal client andyou have to push them on it and
in that case you may just haveto let them go.
They're probably not right foryou.
But when you're talking tosomeone who feels like a really
(12:04):
good fit for your product orservice, it does feel like
helping them versus selling them, and that's what makes it
natural, that's what makes itauthentic and there's a lot of
patience that goes into it.
Right, because you can't just belike hey, I saw that you liked
my post.
Here's my link to join myprogram.
We want to be quick because wedon't have a lot of time.
(12:27):
A lot of us are one womanoperations.
We want to be quick, but youhave to take that extra time to
get personal with it and talk topeople, because that's the only
way that you're really going tofind out what they need.
You can't assume what they need.
Carrie Saunders (12:41):
Well, and I actually read something the
other day that was like you know, sometimes we try to sell to
people who aren't ready to besell sold to.
They're trying to gatherinformation first, and so I
think I think that's what I hear, some of what you're saying
there, and when we're using ourwords on our website too.
You know, we've kind of touchedon this a little bit, but
there's a bit of psychologybehind it.
So how do we ethically work inthat solid, that psychology
(13:04):
behind it?
So how do we ethically work inthat psychology behind our
copywriting?
Jill Pavlov (13:07):
Yes, my last name is Pavlov, for a reason For
anyone listening that doesn'tknow the significance of the
last name, pavlov.
Dr Ivan Pavlov was apsychologist who studied human
conditioning, and I love that,because copywriting, essentially
, is just conditioning ourcustomers.
We're conditioning them to seeour email address and know that
(13:30):
it's going to be a fire email,not something that we want to
delete.
We're conditioning them to knowthat if we post something, it's
something that they're going toread because time and time
again we give them value.
So there's a lot ofpsychological triggers that you
can use to kind of provokeemotion or action in people.
I would say one of my favoriteof those is social proof,
(13:52):
because I don't know about you,but I hate parting with my money
.
I like to keep my money.
So if I'm going to make a bigpurchase, like working with a
coach or something like that,I'm going to do my homework, and
part of that homework isfeeling assured that the money
that I'm spending is going toget me the results that I want
to get.
And that happens by readingother people's testimonials.
(14:14):
Before I buy anything on Amazon, I look at their reviews.
Have people been returning this?
It's such a natural thing whenyou go to a restaurant, you
probably go on Yelp and look uptheir reviews.
So when you can provide proofwhich comes in the form of, like
, testimonials or, um, you knowpeople joining your workshops,
when you can show people thatother people have been there and
(14:37):
worked with you or bought yourproduct and they've gotten the
results, that's when peoplestart to trust you and that
credibility builds and they feela little safer about giving you
their money.
So social proof is really huge.
It creates a lot of authority.
And then urgency urgency andFOMO, fear of missing out.
(14:58):
And again there's a really easyway to slide into unethical and
icky with FOMO and urgency.
Like if you're saying we onlyhave one day left of the sale,
but really you don't, well,that's icky.
Don't lie.
We don't ever want to lie withany of the psychological
triggers, but there is a way tolike really naturally trigger
someone's FOMO in a way that'slike, man, I really do need this
(15:20):
and I don't want to miss out.
Other people are gettingresults.
I want results too.
And again, that that's not icky, because at the end of the day,
we're just trying to helppeople get results and we need
to convince them that they'regoing to get those results.
If you know that you can helpsomeone, it's, it's a service
again.
Carrie Saunders (15:39):
So do you have any other tips for like
psychology?
How can we work in psychology abit, because I know that that
can really especially if doneright and done ethically, you
know, that can really helpconvey what our products or
services can do for the personand how they can benefit them so
that they can make a good,informed decision on there.
(15:59):
And I mean really.
I think that copywriting andpsychology behind it and all the
things that we're talking aboutis helping the potential
customer make an importantdecision so they can make the
best decision for them.
So what are some other littletips that we can add in some
psychology there?
Jill Pavlov (16:16):
Yeah Well, I always take tips from being a theater
person and being an actress.
And to be an actress, when youjump into a role, you have to
figure out what that character'smotivations are.
You have to figure out whatmakes them tick.
So I do that anytime I'mwriting copy.
I put myself in the role of thecustomer, the ideal client, and
think what would I want to hear, what would bring me value,
(16:38):
what would make me want to buyor part with my money?
It's really about puttingyourself in that other person's
shoes and you have to be reallyhonest with yourself when you do
that.
Right, you can't put yourselfin someone else's shoes and be
like, yeah, if I saw this postof mine, I think it's amazing,
because I'm amazing and I don'tthink a lot of us look at
ourselves that way.
We probably go the opposite.
We're probably like I suck, Isuck.
(16:59):
So you have to meet yourself inthe middle and be really honest
about who you are and like thequality of copy that you're
putting out and you know, takeyour ego out of it a little bit
Really, like, think as thecustomer, like, leave no parts
of you.
Think as the customer and belike would I respond to this
(17:19):
email, really put yourself thereand, if not just like, go piece
by piece.
What as an ideal client do Ireally really want?
I don't want the features, Iwant the benefits.
Like you said, I want theresults.
What am I getting you want totouch?
This is why it's so important toreally truly know your ideal
(17:41):
customer, and I actuallyprobably didn't do this well
enough until recently.
This year I dove in and this iswhere ChatGPT also is, and we
haven't really brought it upthat much.
But this is where ChatGPT canbecome an amazing thought
partner for you.
I will never get on record andsay copy-paste what ChatGPT says
as far as copywriting goes, butI will 100% go on record and
(18:03):
say that ChatGPT can be one ofthe best thought partners ever.
So talk to it about your idealcustomer and what you're doing
and get a really solid profile.
Go deep on those questions andfrom there it becomes a lot
easier to write your copy,because that's when you'll
really know what it is that yourcustomers are truly, truly
looking for.
Carrie Saunders (18:23):
Well, I've actually done that.
I think it's like two years agoor maybe one, I started using
ChatGPT to really get a goodidea of who my ideal customer is
, even though we've been inbusiness over 20 some years.
You know, I kind of fell intothe business and it happened on
accident and I didn't reallyhave to market it until the past
five years or so.
So I did use ChatGPT for thatand I was amazed especially if
(18:45):
you prompt it properly how muchit can come up with and all the
things I read.
I was like, yeah, that totallymakes logical sense, but I
wouldn't have thought about itwithout having that conversation
with chat GPT.
It's actually one of the thingswe do in our course, that we
have here at our business, and Iactually have been using chat
GPT for the past year or so alot when I'm brainstorming and I
(19:10):
know you touched on, you knowyou don't really want to copy
and paste chat GPT for yourwriting, but what would be the
appropriate way to use chat GPTwhen you're trying to do writing
, when you're trying to docopywriting and trying to show
your voice a bit better and talkto your ideal customer better?
Jill Pavlov (19:27):
Yeah, it's ChatGPT.
Its outputs are only as good asits inputs.
So if you're having a I don'tknow why yarn is the first thing
that came to my mind today.
But if you're having a yarnsale for your craft business,
you don't just want to put intoChatGPT.
I am having a yarn sale for mycraft business, write me an
(20:02):
email.
That's a horrible prompt.
Chatg GPT has to get to know youjust like a real copywriter,
would you know?
I mean, when I work withclients, I would say it takes me
a good two to three months toreally nail down a brand voice,
because everyone's voice andtheir nuances are so different.
Chat GPT isn't any different.
It needs some time to kind ofpick up on like oh no, I don't
(20:25):
like using the word bad-ass, oh,but I do love using the word
diva.
Let's use diva at any chance wecan get.
It needs time to process thosethings and it needs strategy.
You have to give ChatGPT thestrategy because otherwise
ChatGPT we have to remember it'sa robot, so it takes everything
that you say very literally andit's not just going to come up
with an email strategy becauseyou say write an email.
(20:47):
If you use the AIDA framework,which I teach, which is
attention, interest, desire,action.
That could be a good prompt toput into ChatGPT.
Use the AIDA framework in anemail about my yarn sale going
out to makers who specialize incrocheting baby onesies.
Get specific with ChatGPT andthat's how you're going to get
(21:11):
the best outputs and always gothrough and re-humanize it.
There's hardly ever going to bean area where you can take copy
and directly paste it.
You're always going to have togo through and edit for
humanness.
Carrie Saunders (21:29):
And speaking of humanness, I find that even if
I'm not using chat GPT,sometimes when I'm trying to
write something I feel tooformal to you know, I'm writing
to my English teacher too, kindof robotic ish.
So how do we make our copy abit more human too?
Because that's part of being agood copywriter and having good
copyright on our webpages.
Jill Pavlov (21:50):
Yeah, say it out loud.
Having good copyright on ourwebpages.
Yeah, say it out loud.
Like sometimes, I'll.
If you say it out loud, yourealize how stiff it sounds.
You're like, oh, I would neversay that in real life.
So then try to think about well, how would you say it in real
life and then write that?
It's like if you were going tosay like um coming with an
example, like um coming with anexample like unleash your
(22:11):
fullest.
Unleash your fullest potentialin your business, I would never
walk up to someone and say like,hey, I really want to help you
unleash your fullest potential.
I can't even say it, so ofcourse, I would never say it,
but I might come up and be likehey, I noticed that you have a
really strong brand and I feellike I could really help you
(22:33):
take it to the next level bylike making your message even
stronger, something like that.
It's more specific, it's morepersonal, it sounds more normal.
So just talk it out loud anddon't be afraid to get messy
with it, like I just got reallymessy and sloppy and like I
wasn't embarrassed for onesecond about tripping over my
words, because it's a normalthing that humans do.
So we have to remember it'sokay to get messy and it's okay
(22:55):
to fail and just talk it out andsomething natural will come
from it.
Carrie Saunders (23:00):
When I feel like the tripping up your words
kind of helped.
You realize, you know, ofcourse it was an example that
wasn't a good one, but you know,it's kind of a natural way to
say oh yeah, this doesn't makesense for me to say this
verbally.
So I love that simple tip ofjust literally saying it out
loud.
Maybe go in a closet or yourbathroom if you're embarrassed
to say it out loud.
But, like you know, say it outloud.
(23:20):
I'm going to use that tip forsure, because I know that.
You know, when we get busy it'sso easy to not like double
check things like that to makesure it sounds human, it sounds
like you.
Jill Pavlov (23:33):
It's so easy to miss that step, it's so easy
because, again, we are so busyLike some of us are one person
operations and you know,sometimes you just want to get
that email out the door but weforget that if you turn off
people with your copywriting,it's so hard to get them back,
like you don't want to havepeople unsubscribe to your
(23:54):
emails because they'll probablynever subscribe again.
So it is real easy to just copypaste and feel like you got it
off the to-do list.
But you just have to rememberthat sometimes you might be
doing yourself more harm thangood when you might save
yourself a few minutes but youmight lose yourself some future
customers.
Carrie Saunders (24:13):
Yes, because you basically would be losing
their trust, and trust is hardto gain back.
It's easier to gain trustinitially than to regain it
later, so I think that's areally good point there.
Yeah, so are there any finaltips that you'd like to give us
on copywriting or improv, or howdo we marry the two together to
really make this a much betterexperience for our customers?
(24:36):
Because that's the ideal thingthat we want to do in our
messaging on our website and ouremails and our social medias.
We want to make it a betterexperience and make it feel like
you and I are sitting here justtalking to each other.
Even though it's virtually,we're having a human
conversation.
So how, what are some lastminute tips that you would give
us for that?
Jill Pavlov (24:54):
Yeah, you actually said it at one point was is that
people want to be seen, andthat's so true.
When you remember that yourcustomers at the end of the day,
they really just want to beseen for the problems or the
pain points that they're having,it leads the conversation in a
very different way.
So I would just always leadwith making the customer or
(25:16):
potential client feel good, feelsafe in your care and lean into
your superpowers.
We all have them.
One of mine is making peoplefeel safe, because I'm such a
goofy dork that I think peoplejust are like okay, I can be
goofy and silly too, and I knowthat that's one of my like.
Okay, I can be goofy and sillytoo, and I know that that's one
of my superpowers, so I leaninto it.
We definitely we, like I said,everyone that's listening to
(25:39):
this.
You're here for a reason and soI'm assuming that you do have a
superpower and you may or maynot know it yet, but whatever it
is, lean into that with yourmessaging and it'll just
naturally.
Your magic will naturallyfollow.
Carrie Saunders (25:57):
I just I love that message.
I love the vibe that you givebehind all your messaging.
I think it's just so genuineand so hopeful to others.
So if people listening want tolearn a bit more about Jill and
find you on social media, whatwould be the best ways to get
ahold of you?
Jill Pavlov (26:07):
Yeah, you can connect with me personally on
Instagram.
I'm at comedy Jill and mywebsite is copy-popcom, where
you can learn about all mydifferent improv workshops and
copywriting programs and justsee some really wild pictures of
me where I pretended to be apop star.
Carrie Saunders (26:26):
That's pretty awesome.
It sounds like you're such afun person to be around.
I just love having you on ourpodcast today.
Jill Pavlov (26:33):
Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed it.
Carrie Saunders (26:37):
Wasn't that such a refreshing conversation.
I had so much fun learning fromJill and learning more about
her too.
She reminded us that good copyisn't about sounding polished,
it's about sounding real.
It's about connecting with thepeople you're meant to serve by
saying what you actually mean ina way that actually lands.
If writing has ever felt like astruggle, I hope today's
(26:59):
episode gives you the permissionto simplify, to bring more of
yourself into your words and totrust that clarity is strategy.
As always, you'll find all ofour links at our show notes for
today's podcast episode and, ifyou're loving the show, we would
be so grateful if you wouldrate and review us on your
favorite podcast player or Applepodcast.
(27:19):
That helps spread the word toother entrepreneurs just like
you who may need our messaging,and we will see you next week.
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