So Your Pain In The Butt Has A Guy: A Conversation with Douglas Nelson

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:02):
Hello and welcome.
My name is Tabitha McDonald, andI am so excited to have one of
my mentors and massage heroes onthe Summerflow podcast today.
Welcome Doug Nelson.
He is the founder of uh PNMTNorthwest, or is it NMT Mid
Midwest?

SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
Midwest.
Precision Neuromuscular TherapyIncorporated.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (00:23):
Okay.
And he also owns the is it NMTMidwest Clinic in Champion,
Illinois?

SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Actually, it's Body Work Associates with the name of
the clinic.

SPEAKER_03 (00:32):
I am failing.

SPEAKER_01 (00:33):
No, no, no, it's all right.

SPEAKER_03 (00:36):
Um, I started studying with Doug right out of
massage school when I graduatedthe second time in the US.
And he came to me by the way ofmy friend Brandon.
And um, I'm so grateful that Igot to have you as my mentor in
the beginning of my careerbecause I think it changed the
trajectory of how I worked.
I actually wanted to work in aspa until I met you.

(00:57):
And then I was like, oh, wecould we could do better.
So um, yeah.
So that's so I would um lovejust to like hear a little bit
about you and how you got intomassage and um what you do now
for the world of body work.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Yeah.
So this is my well, I uh I can'tcan't do the math really
quickly, but I I started in uh1978, actually.
So that's uh that's been a whileactually doing this work.
And you know, Tabitha, theinteresting thing for me is I
originally got into this,started with music, and then I I

(01:36):
was it was pretty clear to methat that was not going to be my
career.
That was painful because Ieverything was going that way,
and and my friends all went onto do amazing things, but I knew
for me personally that wasn'tgonna happen.
And um, so I ended up um Can Iask why?

SPEAKER_03 (01:59):
How did you figure how did you know?

SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Yeah, my friends who were there was a level of
passion, commitment, this deep,deep sense of purpose that I saw
in them that at a level inside Iknew I didn't have.
And uh, and that was reallytough to see something in them

(02:22):
that I knew I did not possess.
Um, even though I was, you know,trying and making an effort, but
deep down inside I knew that'snot gonna, that's not who I am.
And and that what's harder, it'shard to make that decision.
It's even harder when yourlittle tribe is all going that
way.
And and then for me, realizing Ican't go with them.

SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
And uh so um what I ended up doing is very
self-reflective for a young man.

SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
Yeah.
Um yeah, uh all I can think ofis just it was painful.
So um, so I ended up uh like Istill had to eat and like pay
the rent and stuff.
So I ended up teaching peoplehow to play.
That the my instrument at thetime was the guitar, and uh, so
I taught lots of lessons.
And what I saw was that peopleknew what to do, they just

(03:17):
couldn't execute it, right?
And so that was a somatic thing.
I had gotten interested in um uhyoga and eastern philosophy and
that sort of thing.
So I ended up studying yoga fora long time in a residential uh
setting, uh, spent a year and ahalf there, and um, and met
someone who uh also moved in whohad just finished the his

(03:41):
massage therapy training, andthat's how I got uh introduced
to it.
And what I saw then is is reallywhat motivates me now, which is
that through you know manydisciplines, yoga is one
example, like you can dotremendous self-care, right?
But that takes time, and withhands-on approaches, we can

(04:05):
create change really fast, andand and that gives people hope.
You you need to do the otherthings as a to to to sustain
things, and that's great.
But if you don't hope thatchange is possible, you're
probably not gonna do that.
And that's when I saw the powerand the promise of manual

(04:27):
approaches.
Um, it's a little hard to lookback over so many years ago and
think, did I really fullyunderstand that?
Um, so I'm, you know, but I Ithink so.
Um I was just on fire with theidea that that um that you could
do so much with the human hand.
And what's also interestingabout that is after a couple of

(04:49):
years, I thought I should go onand do some sort of, you know,
something else.
And uh in terms of moreeducation, become a physical
therapist.
Well, at the time, this was backthen, physical therapists did
not do any kind of manual stuff.
That was perceived as like, oh,we used to do that, we don't do
that anymore.
We have new cool stuff to do.

(05:12):
And um, so that uh that was abit of a yeah, actually, I tried
to go to school, but severaldeans just told me that they
would never be able to train themassage therapy part of that out
of me.
And you know, I didn't realizeit was a deficit.

SPEAKER_03 (05:28):
Um I would I would have taken that as a compliment,
but I guess a differentperspective.

SPEAKER_01 (05:35):
Wow, really?
You know, and again, you have toremember the time period this
was, and and people didn't thinkuh a lot of massage therapy at
the time, uh as you couldimagine.
I mean, this is you know early80s, so um, yeah, a little
different context then, and um,but I I was just maybe uh too

(05:57):
naive to even think that thiscould fail.
Or I, you know, I just pushedalong and envisioned something
that I hope to have happen.
Um, you know, and um so off, youknow, off I went.
And um, you know, that that'show everything in a way began.

SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
I love I love that because I just hear absolute
soul alignment, like kind oflike your higher self was like,
nope, you you're that's thewrong path.
We're gonna make sure peopleslap you off that course and and
on the right one.

SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (06:30):
Because I thought about being a physical therapist
too after a while, and then Ithought, why?
I my clients always say thatthey get better results and
certain things with what I do.
Why would I trade what I do forsomething different?
Like when it works.

SPEAKER_01 (06:46):
So um Yeah, you know, I just got a really big
award from the University ofIllinois, and um what's
interesting is I didn't go tothe U.
I didn't uh, you know, um Ididn't finish college actually.
Once I found this, I never didanything else.
And and that came up like whydidn't you pursue uh, you know,

(07:06):
especially, I don't know, withmy curiosity, whatever.
And and uh and the answer is anypathway forward for me would
have taken me away from hands-onwork.
Whatever the discipline,whatever the pathway, I knew
that the thing that I was mostpassionate about is using my

(07:27):
hands to to make a difference.
And uh I just was unwilling topursue anything else that that
would take me away from that.
All those things are all great,but the thing that's exceedingly
rare is someone with the manualskills to truly make a
difference.
And and as evidenced by thenumber of people that I see

(07:51):
every week when I see a newperson and they complain of
something they've had for anextended period of time, um,
sometimes years, you know,somebody just last week, two
years.
And and the question I often askthem is in all that time, did
anyone actually touch it?
And the answer is no.

(08:14):
And then it's like, does thatseem weird to you?
It's like even the patient willsay, yeah, you know, like, wow,
that is wild.
How did we get to a place wherewe don't even do that in
healthcare?
Um, and it's it's verydifficult.
A friend of mine used to teachum manual uh physical medicine,

(08:37):
uh physical examination, it'sthe word I'm looking for at the
med school.
Um, there's very little interestin it now because the idea is,
you know, we're just gonna imageit anyway.
So what's the point?
You know?
Um my goodness.
Um, you know, like on so manylevels and for so many reasons,

(08:58):
palpation makes a difference, ifnothing else, to validate the
experience of the patient.
Like, you know, just to say tothat person, when you say it
hurts, do you mean here or here?
Right?

SPEAKER_03 (09:12):
The look on their face is usually like I don't
even know how to describe it.
It's just absolute validvalidation relief.
Like, like I'm not making it up.
That's exactly what thinking.

SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Exactly.
Yeah, and this is you know, it'sinteresting.
I I think it was last year orearlier this year, it all runs
together.
But um, I got to, I was thekeynote speaker at a conference
uh for Oxford University inEngland, and and it was about
validation, that was the topic.
And you know, we're luckybecause you know, you can talk

(09:50):
about validation as thisconstruct and this idea, but
when somebody when I can put myfinger and replicate somebody's
symptoms, very little discussionneeds to happen, right?
I mean, their brain goes, Oh,like, whoa, right.
I mean, I I can't be making thisup if this guy can put his
finger on it and then recreatethe symptoms.

SPEAKER_03 (10:12):
If I think those things are connected, um
massively, it's so valuable forsomeone's healing journey
because then they get out of theloop of I have to try to prove
that this pain is real becausepeople are telling me it's not.
And like when you can say yes,no, it's very real, and then you
replicate it.
There, I think that is theopening to the body's ability to

(10:33):
heal because it pulls them outof that loop of I'm not crazy,
the pain is there, I can feelit.
So and I that to me is likeground zero for for building
rapport with someone and gettingthem to heal fast.

SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, and it youknow, rapport is in that case,
it's it's very easy, right?
Because you've just umacknowledged and replicated what
they experience.
If I if I try to communicate toyou what I'm feeling or that I'm
in pain or that I'm strugglingwith something, I never really

(11:12):
know.
Like, do you really understandwhat I'm trying to tell you?
But if I put my finger on it andreplicate this like weird pain
that you feel, there's noquestion, right?
It isn't about gosh, I'm notreally sure.
The person, that nervous systemis very sure that not only is it

(11:32):
real, but that I, as apractitioner, can put my finger
on it, right?
And and that means, yes, I dounderstand.

SPEAKER_03 (11:42):
There's something very powerful about touch.
And it's um to me, it'sinteresting because I'm building
like this online part of mybusiness.
Like it's part of my soul'scalling is to bring more
meditation and things to peopleto help heal pain and to help
resolve, you know, um,neuroplastic pain and things
like that.
But the touching, the being inthe clinic space with another

(12:04):
human being is just the part I'munwilling to leave behind
because I think as apractitioner, I get so much from
it.
Like for me, I feel so muchconnection and um humbleness to
be with people as they gothrough the journey of pain and
also growth and just absoluteprofound, like I I don't even

(12:26):
know how to describe it, otherthan like you see miracles and
magic in motion when you can getsomeone out of that state into
to a place of hope.
And like, like you said, andthen also to then feeling good
again, like in their bodies andthey can live.

SPEAKER_01 (12:41):
I think that's yeah, I think it's an important point.
And I I don't want to lose themoment.
Um I you know, I just did apodcast a little bit ago uh on
bidirectionality.
And if I if I'm telling you nowthat, so I read this really cool
research study uh in massagetherapy, you immediately you

(13:02):
would be thinking, oh, and whatdid they study?
What happened to the person onthe table?
But I think it would be veryinteresting, instead of wiring
up the person on the table withbiomarkers, wire up the
therapist.
Um, because I think one of thethings, one of the untold
stories in our profession is howgood this profession is for us

(13:25):
as therapists, in in so manyways.
Um maybe I shouldn't say this,but so so many times in my
practice, I will uh come insidethe the door into my clinic
room, close the door, and putboth hands on the door and tell

(13:45):
my client, I'm so happy you'rehere, you know, and this is
totally about me.
Because once I close that door,nobody can get to me, right?
Like all the world, it's all outthere, and it's just you and I.
And now here we go, right?
And what a gift, right?
Yeah, and then that total focusto do the work well demands your

(14:09):
absolute complete focus on thatperson, and which also means all
the stuff, right?
The world and whatever is goingon in your head has to exit the
room, and it is the holy spaceof anything else, anything about
me in that room is getting inthe way of being fully present

(14:30):
for that person, and um, I justrelish that.
And um, and I think it it'ssomething that we don't talk
about enough.
And I do think if we had aresearch study that we wired up
the therapist with the uh amultitude of biomarkers, I think
you'd see how beneficial thatis.
And that's at one level.

SPEAKER_03 (14:50):
Sorry to continue, but no, that's actually like
have you read Lynn McTaggart'swork, The Power of Eight?
They have they had one person inthe center of a healing circle
and eight around them, settingthe intention for the person in
the center of the circle toheal.
Guess who got more healing?
It was the people setting theintention, yeah, sending the

(15:12):
energy, not the person receivingit.
So it that that just goes alongthere.
I believe she did do research onit.
I'd have to look it up.
I could send it if I find it.
But um, they have researchedthat the people who who actually
facilitate receive some kind ofbenefit in return that is
immeasurable, in my opinion.
Uh, because you're absolutelyright, to be present with

(15:35):
someone and to have the honor.
I always think of it like anhonor to walk someone through
the journey of recovery is to mejust like an absolute gift.

SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
Absolutely.
And it is um just to be withsomeone else and um, you know a
couple of things.
One to to that point andpersonally and professionally,
in terms of being honored,anybody who's done this long
enough, you must have at somepoint attended the memorial

(16:06):
service for a long time client.
And if you sit in that room andyou look around, you realize
that you knew them in a way thatno one in that room knew them.
And almost everything you know,in that case, you can't tell
anybody, right?
But you know deep in your heartthat that person shared um parts

(16:27):
of them that they shared with noone else.
Oh my gosh, what an amazingthing.
And and also for us as people,you cannot be in relationship
with people in that deep way forso long and not be changed
yourself in that process aswell.
All right.
And um, so for me to see so manypeople who struggle with pain

(16:50):
and to see the courage, to seetheir strength in that process,
um, it, you know, those thoseare people who inspire me to to
deal with you know things in mylife because I've seen how other
people have done that in there.
So I I do feel it's a deep honorto be with them.

SPEAKER_03 (17:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I think of one uh client ofmine in particular.
I was I went, she called me whenon her deathbed and asked me to
come and to watch her diegracefully and to get to be a
part of it and to help ease herpain.
And just it it was, I realizedwe had something unique that
nobody else there had because wewe did three sessions a week.

(17:29):
So, like, you know, we wereclose in a way.
I don't know if you get to bethat intimate with most people
in your life.

SPEAKER_01 (17:36):
So yeah, I think not.

SPEAKER_03 (17:38):
Yeah, it is a beautiful gift.

SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
Yeah.
So it's uh it's a wonderfulthing.
And I think it's just one of themany stories about the work
itself that I think doesn't getexpressed enough.
And I think those of us who havedone it for a long time, you
know, to convey that to otherpeople, like that's part of the
richness of the work itself.

(18:00):
It's the richness is in therelationship.

SPEAKER_03 (18:03):
Yeah, oh, so much so.
That's so true.
I it was funny because I waslosing um some of that
appreciation for that, and I wastaking a loamy loamy class
because I wanted to do somethingeasy and flowy, and I was like,
I just want to do somethingdifferent.
And there was an executive fromeBay there, and I looked at

(18:24):
Daniel, who was one of mycolleagues, and I said, We have
his dream job, Daniel.
Like we have this man is likeenvious of our career, and he is
like, he was like exec at eBay,and I'm like, we don't
appreciate what we get to do fora living enough.
Like that it was a big reset forme.

(18:45):
Um and recalibration ofappreciation of what we get to
do.

SPEAKER_00 (18:50):
So very cool.

SPEAKER_03 (18:51):
I can relate to that experience.
It was like, oh man, there'speople who I remember dreaming
about being a massage therapistwhen I worked in the back end of
the school, going, oh, I shouldgo back to school and get my
license in the States because Itrained in England.
And I was like, I should I butit I was putting it off and I
was like, yeah, I didn't um Ithink you it you do, you get

(19:11):
into like running the businessor the other side of things, and
then you forget to slow down andjust appreciate the gifts of it
that we get to experience.
So I love that reminder.
And I hope all new massagetherapists or anyone considering
going into the field, because Italk to a lot of people who want
to go into healthcare, and I'mlike, how have you considered
massage?

(19:32):
Like, I actually think thatthere's a huge demand for it.
Um, especially well-trained andcommitted massage therapists, I
think that they're needed rightnow in the world more than ever,
anytime, because we have thisepidemic of pain that just is
not resolving.
And I feel like we have animportant role to play in that

(19:53):
conversation and in the processof helping get people out of
pain it very affordably as well.

SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
Yeah.
You know, it um on so manylevels.
Um a while ago, um I had theopportunity to represent this
field at a national conference.
And and honestly, I mean theheads of uh United Healthcare,
Blue Cross Blue Shield, the BA,like I mean the who's who of

(20:22):
healthcare was all sitting atthe table.
And and based on my history, um,you know, uh in those early
years, I always felt like I hadto defend the work and make the
case for the.
So, of course, in this highpressure environment, I'm
thinking, I'm gonna wear that,you know, I'm gonna bring that
flag, and by God, I'm gonna, andI've got I'm armed with all

(20:44):
this, you know, research.
And boy, how ridiculous wasthat.
Because um what I heard from allthose people from the get-go is
when should we, how should we,um, in what context, uh, for
what conditions, never should weeven consider massage there?

(21:08):
That wasn't in the conversationat all.
It just looped right over that.
And I thought, I I think I'mgonna put the flag away and try
to hide it.
Um, I feel really embarrassed,and I'll probably put the armor
and take that off.
And uh, like, wow, that's wherewe have come as a profession.
Um, and I see that in my owncommunity.

(21:30):
You know, I'm my community is120,000 people.
Um but um we see a significantpercentage of the community.
The number of physicianreferrals we got is really
impressive.
And um so and and and again, umto for a massage therapist to be

(21:55):
recognized by the university,um, you know, and multiple
things, um, I've never seen thepublic acceptance the way it is.
I've never seen the medicalacceptance uh in that world, the
healthcare acceptance.
So the the thing that I worryabout is all those things are
true.

(22:16):
And and we know the if you lookat the data, um, you know, the
incidence of musculoskeletalpain, 123% in the last 30 years,
projected another 115 in thenext 30 years, increasing
constantly.
The thing I would say to our ownprofession is, are we ready for
this?
And and I I think the answer isI don't think so.

(22:39):
Um because the time is now, ourmoment is now, now is the time
to step forward into that spaceto really serve in in in a
meaningful way like has neverbeen possible before.
The windows open, but are are weready to to go through that?

(23:01):
Yeah, I don't know.
Uh I I have my doubts, but um,we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 (23:07):
I have I have my doubts.
I I um it's funny because peoplewill say to me, I would never
have known that you were here ifmy friend hadn't have told me.
And it took them a lot ofconvincing to get me to come
here.
And I'm like, yeah, I'm notreally good at marketing because
I'm just very referral-based.
And I don't want to getoverwhelmed with massage clients

(23:27):
because I'm trying to build outmy uh online revenue stream and
just things that I've beentrying, like developing in um
the mind body world.
And um it's it's interestingbecause I then I think I it is
my responsibility actually tostart communicating more clearly
to people what's possible.

(23:48):
Um, that's less expensive andmore effective.
Like um, you know, especiallybecause people come in and I
hear them all over the placecomplaining about the cost of
healthcare and co-pays.
And I'll say, well, you know,you could treat this for like
three visits with me.
It'll cost you less than$500, oryou could continue to pay$20,000
a year in co-pays or whateverand still continue to be in

(24:08):
pain.
But getting them to understandthat is really challenging
because the healthcare thing isso embedded in their minds where
it's like, well, if it's notcovered by insurance, because we
don't work with healthinsurance, um, then I won't,
then it must not be effective,or you know, I can't do it's
something, you know.
And I've had people come in andthey said, my doctor wouldn't

(24:31):
treat this, even though this wasthe cause of this, because it
wasn't coded correctly.
And I'm like, when did we get tothat place in healthcare where
if the code isn't matching,we're not treating the root
cause of the problem?
Like it just didn't make senseto me.
And it's funny because I reallywas questioning if it's a fight
or a battle I really wanted tobe in the arena of.

(24:53):
Because it just seemed um maybelike when I wasn't really didn't
have the fire to fight likeuntil I talked to you.
And then I'm like, oh no, maybeI could find the fire on that
one.
I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
But you know, when we at our clinic, um, I think we
saw last year 18,000 sessions,something like that.
That doesn't include that's onlyin the office stuff.
That doesn't include our workwith um the university and
athletes and stuff like that.
So we're seeing a ton ofsessions, right?

(25:28):
Um, we do almost no marketing umper se.
Um our our marketing strategy isbased around one thing, two
words really get results.
You know?

SPEAKER_03 (25:43):
Um you taught me that when I first started my
business.
You said best marketing, yousaid those that exact thing, and
I've I've followed that rule umever since I opened my clinic.
And I for myself haven't had todo a lot of marketing until I
brought people in and then I hadto market them.
And I was like, oh, now I haveto learn other marketing.
But um, but yeah, that wasalways my philosophy.

(26:04):
Thanks to you.
And I think that that's true formost businesses, but um really
good advice.

SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
Yeah, it's it's important.
I mean, everything else, I meanI I I one gets tired of clever
arguments and flashy things andloud voices.
Um, none of that impresses me.
What impresses me most issomebody who can just deliver
the goods, you know?
And and if you do thatconsistently, believe me,

(26:31):
especially in the world of pain,where so many people know
somebody else who's alsostruggling with something
similar that they have, um, thatword spreads really fast.

SPEAKER_03 (26:43):
Oh, yeah.
Uh most people who find me,they're like, I was at a party
and I was complaining about myback, and this guy walked up to
me and he goes, I got a girl.
I got a caller.
So it's um yeah, they're yeah,anytime someone sees pain, then
they're like, they think theythink of me.

SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Like I would have been known for that.
Like, yeah, well, actually,that's that's unfortunately.
One guy said to me this was uhlike uh I don't know, a few a
few years ago, but he said, Soyou've been in town a long time,
right?
I'm like, yeah.
And and and it was a uh sciaticissue, and he said, So you treat

(27:22):
a lot of this?
And like, he yeah.
He said, Did you ever think thatfor so many people in this town,
the when the moment they have apain in the butt, you're the
first name that comes to mind.
It's like, you know, I've neverthought about it that way, and I
I'm happy not to think about itin that way anymore.
Um, it's a pretty funny turn onthat.

SPEAKER_03 (27:41):
Oh, that's hilarious.
Professional pain in the buttsolver.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
Yeah, yeah.
It's first first thought thatcomes up like, wait a minute, I
don't know, hold on there.

SPEAKER_03 (27:53):
So yeah, that is, yep, nope, that's true.
Anytime, like someone I seesomebody, it's hard to be
someone who can see paineverywhere and exist.
Like I go to the gym and I'mjust like, I can't, I can't
look.
I'm gonna I'm gonna standaround.
No, and it's hard for me to keepmy mouth shut and not be like, I
could help you with that kneepain and take me 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_01 (28:15):
Like, yeah, hard to watch, but it's difficult now.
I you know, I find myself beingvery um kind of under the radar
just because you know, practiceis so overwhelmed.
And and and really we have 22therapists, and they're all just

(28:35):
it's very difficult becausethere are so many people who
need our services, but we justyou know, we can barely handle
what we have in front of us.
And but that you know, that'sanother thing, just the the
thing of going the transitionfrom being an individual
practitioner to then, you know,my own office grew in a I I

(28:56):
started it in 1982 here inChampaign, and it grew in a very
just organic way.
Um, there was never a five-yearplan.
Uh, it just kept adding morepeople and more people and more
people.
And um, and you know, it'sinteresting how that's developed
now.
And and also it it's alsointeresting as we began to more

(29:20):
clearly define and we're alwaysmoving toward a more perfect
union, uh, you know, like whoare we really and where do we
fit in the you know, theecosystem of of our community?
And also, as there are otherpractitioners out there who are
also massage therapists, thereare so many different ways to

(29:42):
practice, and you know, they'reall valid as long as it's the
right thing for the right reasonat the right time, done in the
right way.
Uh, other than that, it's prettystraight ahead.

SPEAKER_03 (29:52):
That is the best.
I I want to talk about that fora minute because people will
come in all the time, and I'mlike, if you use the wrong
process on the on the rightprocess.
It's not gonna work.
Like it's or the right processon the wrong problem.
It's just not gonna work.
I had a lady come in from Hawaiiand she had plantar fasciitis.
I was like, can I look at thatfor you?
She goes, Oh no, I've beengetting it treated for 15 years,

(30:12):
it's not solvable.
And I'm like, can I just take adifferent look?
And it wasn't a plantarfasciitis history, it was with
her big toe.
And I thought, I was so gratefulfor you.
And uh she had some triggerpoints in her tibialis
posterior.
And she goes, How did you dothat?
And I was like, There are manythings that have the same
symptoms that if you do onesolution for it, it's actually
going to make it worse.

(30:33):
You cannot count on Dr.
YouTube.
It does not work.
Like you have to have someonewho knows how to look at the
nuances of the thing that you'restruggling with to give you the
right solution and the rightprocess.
Otherwise, you could be makingit worse.
And then the person thinks thatthey're just forever stuck in
pain.
And I think that that's that'sthe danger of claiming that

(30:54):
yours is the only solution forany practitioner, is that you
know, then if it doesn't workfor the way that their problem
is structured, then then theylose hope in having it be
solved.
Or it's that they say, well,massage doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
Yeah, exactly.
And I was just gonna say to tothe first thing, any number
times zero is still not stillzero, right?

SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
So but but in the second thing, the where we uh uh
excel, I think in some ways, ispeople who've who've done kind
of other things in the kind oftraditional medical thing and
then are willing to just, youknow, maybe by reputation or or

(31:37):
talk to somebody, come to seeus.
The one population that weprobably don't see are people
who've seen another massagetherapist because in their head
they think, I tried that and itdidn't work.
You know, it's like that door isnow closed because they feel
like, well, that you know,listen, that's not gonna help.

(31:59):
I already did that, which iskind of like saying, you know, I
ate a salad once, I didn't loseany weight.
So, you know, like what?

SPEAKER_03 (32:07):
I love that analogy, that's fabulous.

SPEAKER_01 (32:09):
It's really hard to convince them that you may, but
I don't know what that persondid.
And and I'm pretty sure if youtell me more, uh I'll we'll find
out, but uh I'm pretty surethat's not what we're gonna do.
And um, and so you know, andagain, it's very difficult um to
describe for for me when Idescribe this work, you know, uh

(32:34):
because you know, you don't wantto sound like, oh, this is
better than other.
It's not better, it's just it'sjust different.
It's the level of specificitythat's not always done.
And and again, it's notappropriate for everything and
every circumstance for God, youknow, like we serve uh, you
know, the subset of people whohave this specific needs that we

(32:56):
can address, right?
But we should do that in areally good way.
The problem is when whensomething that is is probably
not gonna help, let's say, youknow, plant our pain, and you
know, they've had more generalstuff or whatever, it's like,
and then they think, well, youknow, that door's over.
It's like, no, not really.
It's hard to it's hard to makethat case.

SPEAKER_03 (33:17):
Yeah, I I just got a message from someone I treated
on a Zoom call.
I showed her how to do it onZoom, and she said, my
tendonitis has been gone, and itwould that was like 15 years ago
ever since then.
And she'd been to so manyspecialists.
And I I just felt like, I don'tthink I I do think our work, I
don't know if it's better, I'llsay is the most effective, is

(33:39):
what I like to call it.
Like it's just very effectivefor pain and and people who want
to be out of pain.

SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
Yeah.
Like that's you know, and again,you know, there are there are so
many reasons that people mightseek massage, right?
You've you've worked like a tonof hours, you're exhausted,
you're whatever.
You know, that might be adifferent thing.
So again, it's always the rightapproach for the right reason.
Yeah, but I think the thing thatwe excel at is the
decision-making process of thewith there are many approaches,

(34:10):
right?
The wisdom is in the choosing.
Like, how do you choose thisversus that?
And and can you articulate it?
And how do you know you're onthe right road?
But more importantly, how do youknow you're on the wrong road?
Um, that's more important.
You know, it's it's one of thethings that I learned when I was
uh deep into the research sideof things and president of the

(34:33):
foundation and that kind ofstuff is you know, the goal of
research isn't to verify, it'sto falsify.
And so for me, when I'm treatingsomething and uh a person has
anterior shoulder pain, and Ithink, oh, I think it could be
once I think I know what it is,I will work quite hard at trying

(34:54):
to prove myself wrong.
And if I can't prove myselfwrong, I I actually might be
right.
If I try to prove myself, if Itry to prove myself right, I
find my I have no trouble doingthat, you know.
But that's the problem.
But like we can all find a wayto prove ourselves right, but um
it's more important to see,like, well, if that was true,

(35:17):
what about this?
What about that?
And sometimes I'll do that witha client.
You know, I'll find somethingthat is they think, oh my gosh,
that's the place.
And I think, well, that fitseverything that I'm thinking,
and that's the model I'm comingfrom.
And then I'll move off of thatand say, what about this?
Like, no, well, how about that?
No, how about this?

(35:37):
And like, you know, you seemlost because you were on it
before, but now you seem lost.
Like, thank you for saying that,because uh, I was actually just
trying to deceive you a littlebit.
Does because if the person says,Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, now
what I know is none of thatstuff was true, and uh, you
know, I'm I'm lost without anykind of GPS system.

(35:59):
But but if they can tell me,nah, like, mm-hmm not good, now
now I'm probably right.
And I so I think that's a reallyimportant thing.
And I and you have to be willingto be proven wrong.
That's the thing.
You have to be willing to fail.
And and that's the thing,Tabitha, so much about feedback.

(36:20):
You know, the best way not toget feedback is don't ask.
Yeah, but how dumb is that?
And um, I I think that's that isuh it so that's we always find
ourselves checking in withpeople, even to the, you know
what I'm doing?
Is that the kind of thing youwere hoping for?
Oh people say, you know, I I getthat this approach could be

(36:41):
really effective, but this isn'tsomething I'm interested in.
It's like totally get it.
You know, it's all good.
And let's see if we can get youto the right kind of thing that
would really resonate with you.

SPEAKER_03 (36:52):
I have to ask people that a lot because I'm like,
whoever sent you in, did theytell you what I do?
Or were you thinking this waskind of like something you saw
on TV?

SPEAKER_02 (37:01):
Yeah, we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (37:02):
They're like, no, they just said you did something
different.
I'm like, okay, good.
So are you looking for flow andrelaxation and being naked, or
are you ready to get out ofpain?
Let me know because I want tomake sure I have your
expectations clear.
I'm like, if it's both, I mightbe able to help you, but it

(37:22):
won't be as effective.
So I just want to be clear aboutthat so that you you know that
going forward.
So that having thoseconversations with people,
setting expectations and alsogetting their expectation is so
important.
I think not.
I've seen cut plate people, theyrun in and run out of the
treatment room.
And I'm like, how did you evenfind out what was going on for

(37:45):
them enough to like create atreatment plan or to be very
thorough with it?
You barely even ask their name.
Like you've got to like talk tothem and say, you know, you're
having low back pain.
That doesn't mean you're gonnalay on your belly and get
undressed.
What if they have the set pain?
That might make that, that mightmake it worse.
Like we have to think and likereally educate or you taught me

(38:08):
that, like to think and reallythink about the client and their
lack of knowledge about theirown body and go, okay, how much
education am I gonna have togive them so that they know
there's a different way?
Because if they've ever triedmassage, they might have gone in
and it's like, okay, great, goahead and get undressed.
You're gonna lay face down underthe blanket.
You could say the speech like anairline stewardess, right?

(38:28):
Like uh it's very rhythmic.
And to like stop people and say,I actually need you to sit down
for a minute because I'm gonnahave a conversation with you
first.
They almost get a little shockedbecause they're like, Oh, but
we're gonna run out of time.
I'm like, no, no, I I builtplenty of time into our session.

SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
So we're good.

SPEAKER_03 (38:46):
I want to hear about what you want to do when you're
not hurting.
And also I want to know aboutum, you know, what you're where
it's coming up for you, what isgetting in the way of, what
can't you do?
Yeah.
And um, give me the detailsbecause I want to hear them.
You're not whining, you're notcomplaining.
I need to hear those complaintsbecause the can the details help

(39:07):
me understand what's what'sgoing on for you.

SPEAKER_01 (39:10):
So you know, one of the memory that comes up for me,
this was years ago, but I'llnever forget it.
Uh, asking this young manquestions, and he said, Can we
just cut the charade?

SPEAKER_00 (39:23):
What?

SPEAKER_01 (39:24):
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Like, I'm what?
And he said, Can we just cut thecharade?
I said, What what do you what doyou mean by charade?
And he said, um, I've been to abunch of people, you know, a
bunch of different kinds ofpractitioners, and also in your
field, everybody asks thesequestions, and then they do
whatever the hell they weregonna do anyway.

(39:46):
So let's just cut the charadeand why don't you just treat me
and let's just see if it works.
You know what?
He's right.

SPEAKER_03 (39:53):
He was right.

SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
He is exactly right.
You know, oftentimes when peopleask those questions, they don't
do anything with theinformation, they do what they
were gonna do anyway.
He's exactly right.
Yeah, and I remember just beingstunned and then telling him,
you know, this in a way is notgonna go well for you because
I'm gonna ask a question, butevery time you answer my

(40:15):
question, I'm gonna tell youwhat it means to me, what it
implicates, and what it takesaway.
And and at that point, he justlooked like pain, like, oh, I'm
so sorry I said anything, youknow, like this is gonna slow it
down.
And and uh, but you know, that'swhat I did like, oh, so when you
say it hurts when you, but notwhen you to me that means uh and

(40:35):
then at one point we were doingsome work, and you know, there
just there was no talking oranything, and we're probably 10
or 10 minutes into the session,and he starts laughing.
And I was thinking, I'mNorwegian, we're not funny, like
what?
And uh I said, what about thisis funny?
And he said, you know, for allthe people I've seen, this is

(40:56):
the first time that somebodyactually did what I asked them
to do, you know, like that I hadsome agency in the session.
I mean, the whole process wasjust gut-wrenching, and I and we
need to listen to that youngman.
Uh and you know, so uh what Itell people is don't ask any
question that you're not gonnado something with the

(41:19):
information.
If you're gonna do whatever youdo, yeah, you know, get their
name and then just do what youdo and hope for the best.
For me personally, I thinkclients deserve more than that.
But you know, we don't have likethis checklist of stuff like
that we just kind of go throughthe motions.
Like, if I ask a question, ithas meaning to me and it will

(41:42):
direct treatment.
And and I want the client toknow that and experience that.

SPEAKER_03 (41:48):
Yeah, that's I like it's interesting because as
you're saying that, I'm like,yeah, when I'm asking questions
in my brain, I actually have alike a treatment plan that I'm
creating and I'm just doing itso quickly that like I've gotten
really fast at it.
But like I am formulating atreatment plan as they're as I'm
asking the questions.
And exactly then I pull fromthat as I'm working on them.

(42:12):
And um I never unless someone,and it's not very common
anymore, comes in and they say,I just want to relax.
Um I'm usually put them withsomeone else because I like to
use my time for people who havemore complex pain.
But um, it's interesting becauseI'm like, uh I don't know if
everyone does that.

(42:32):
You're right.
I I think I have had a lot ofwork on people where they just
go into their routine and theirflow instead of really thinking
about the pain the person'shaving.

SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
And you know, the problem with that for me is that
um when people I I think it'snot very enriching for the
therapist when you're just doingthe same thing over and over
again.
It's it's um it would, you know,for me, it it would be like um

(43:06):
it's so mindless in a way.
Like I, you know, I I was gonnasay like telling the same story
over and over again, but that'sthat's not really true.
Um because um, so I'm lookingover there at my cello, and uh
for the last six years, um I'vebeen you know studying the
cello.
And um Yo Yo Ma started playingthe Bach cello suites, the

(43:30):
prelude when he was like fouryears old.
And and now at my age, 69, uh heis still playing the Bach cello
suites, right?
It's the same story, but the69-year-old sounds very
different, brings a different,you know, uh background than the

(43:52):
six-year-old, then the the23-year-old, then the
43-year-old, then the50-year-old.
You know, it's the same thing,but through that, you know, it's
the same way.
I I'm still putting my hands onpeople in the same way I did
when I was 23.
But it's not the same because Ibring something very different

(44:15):
to that.
And and it's um, it's the thewisdom, the background, not just
the the surface thing.
So to skate over the surface ofthat, to me to me, Tabit, that's
a little bit like being at theocean and day after day, and you
look at it and you go, Oh, it'sreally pretty.
Oh, that's right.

(44:36):
And then someone goes, Oh, forGod's sakes, and they put a mask
on your face, shove your head inthe water, and then you see,
holy, that it's like a worldunder there, right?
All of which I didn't seebecause I was just looking at
the surface.
But the Einstein said it bestinfinity is not a line extending
through the heavens, but thevariations at any one point in

(44:58):
the line, it's always aboutdepth, not about verticality and
horizontal thing.

SPEAKER_03 (45:06):
I would agree with that because I can tell that the
more depth I've brought intolike just being humble with my
own process.
And as I've been working onintegrating more mind, mind
mindfulness practices within thework that I do, I have studied
like NLP and and how we canbreak certain habitual patterns

(45:28):
of pain in the in the brain andmigraines.
I've been working with peoplewith migraines and using like a
combination of hypnotherapy,NLP, and then what we do to
break these like lifelongmigraine patterns.
And I'm like, this is liketaking this, it required a
tremendous amount of humility, alot of failure and humbleness

(45:49):
and also um curiosity, all ofwhich I learned from you.
But um to go deep with someonelike like that and say, let me,
let's just walk on this pathtogether, like you're still
doing a lot of the samemaneuvers, but you're you're
having to go to a new level ofvulnerability with yourself,
with your inner wisdom, right?

(46:09):
And then also with the amount ofyou know, education that you've
obtained.
And sometimes I think like Iforget how much studying was
required to get to where whereyou are, your constant learner,
right?
I'm a constant learner.
I get bored otherwise.
Like I would, I wouldn't be ableto just flow on a body all day
long and not have any kind ofattainable result with someone.

(46:32):
Like I want, I have that needfor depth in my work.
Like, and I would not be able tohave a career where I didn't
have depth in the amount ofchange that I could create for
with a human.
I don't say for, I'm just, I'mjust there to remind them of
what they were their bodyalready knew how to do.
So I always say I'm just the,I'm just the I'm just the

(46:53):
facilitator.
I'm just reminding your bodywhat it already knows how to do.
So um, whether it's in the mindor, you know, in the emotional
body or in the physical body,that's just what I do.
So um it's not magic, it'scommitment to education, never
being afraid to fail, um, to getthings wrong.
And then just I think one of thethings that clients always say

(47:14):
is that your ferociouscommitment to the outcome and
you know, just not being afraidto like call in other
practitioners or, you know,whoever else is needed, um, so
that the person gets the qualityof care that they need and the
the results.

SPEAKER_00 (47:28):
So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (47:29):
Um I think that what do you because I think I've seen
a lot of therapists like hoardknowledge in in some clinics, or
I've heard that.
What because you're not yourclinic is 100% not like that.
How do you and my clinic is notlike that?
We're very much givers gain.
Like we have our unique giftsand we make sure that you know
clients know who the besttherapist is for them.

(47:51):
And then we have like a networkof other professionals that we
refer out to.
How do you build that culture inyour clinic?
Because that's a very um, Idon't think all businesses
operate that way.
Like, how do you how did youbuild that?

SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's a it's a really goodquestion.
How you create culture, right?
And sustain that.
Um, you know, I think the NorthStar is always what is best for
that person, you know, and thatperson meeting the client.
Um, how do we best serve thatperson?
And are we the best, you know,resource for that?

(48:28):
And when I say we, even insideour office, right, it's like,
well, who's the best person forthat person to see?
Um I think at some point youhave to demonstrate to the the
stakeholders, you know, and allof that, that that uh everyone

(48:50):
benefits from that kind ofmindset.
Um and I think so there there'sa little bit of a leap of faith
that happens in that.
But I I think once you do, yourealize that um then you get
this kind of team approach.
And I think one of the thingsthat certainly we are star for

(49:10):
uh in this culture is belongingand a sense of community and
commitment.
And so I think with the office,you know, with with that uh, you
know, having a sense of this iswho we are as a people and as an
organization, as a business, um,and people feeling like they're
proud to be part of that, that'sa really important thing.

(49:33):
And um, you know, what reallywhen you look at the data just
nationally, if if we're alsohyper connected, you know,
through the through social mediaand all that sort of stuff, then
why is the data on lonelinessjust jaw-dropping?
You know, like how is that evenpossible?
Something is really wrong.

(49:55):
And um, so to create a cultureof connectedness and um and
shared purpose and meaning is areally important thing.

SPEAKER_03 (50:04):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, it's um it's reallyinteresting because I've talked
to a lot of practitioners andthey're like, why do you have
people work with you at yourclinic?
Like, I'm because I can'timagine riding in the boat
alone.
Like I even from the first day Iopened the clinic, I never
envisioned it being one person.
Like to me, that felt like sucha lonely path.

(50:26):
And and I think a lot ofpractitioners go solo and
they're they don't either knowhow to collaborate with others
or they're I don't know what itis, but um, I find that when I
went through some of the worstdays of my life, it was so
beautiful to have them hold upthe clinic and to do things that
I couldn't do because I had abrain injury and I wasn't making

(50:48):
great choices.
And it was nice to have someone,you know, do do the backup and
be like, nope, that's not a goodidea.
Um, and then, you know, whenthey've lost family members, you
know, we step in and we helpeach other, like we call their
clients and we make sure thateveryone's taken care of.
And and I think in a communityum of that kind of support, we
also support each other'sgrowth.

(51:09):
And, you know, there's a it wasinteresting.
Daniel was working on someoneone day, and when she walked
out, I could tell her pelvic wasstill tilted because of how she
was walking.
And that, and we have suchrapport.
I said, Daniel, do you mind if Ijust show you how to treat this
one thing?
I don't think we've you'velearned it before.
And he was so grateful, she wasso grateful.

(51:29):
She said, I have had that painfor 25 years and nobody has
found it.
And um, Daniel was like, Thankyou for showing that to me.
I had another therapist whodidn't last at our clinic, very
similar situation.
I'm always very humble when Ilike kind of like go in and I
could just see, you know,something got missed.
And I, you know, I everyoneknows it's never an ego thing
for me.

(51:49):
It's always what's best for theclient.
And she was furious.
She quit, she left because shefelt very humiliated.
And then like, I know myself andI know how I approached that.
I know I didn't do it from thatstance.
And it was hard to have someonelike that where ego was blocking
growth or what was best for theclient.

(52:10):
And and I'm much care morecareful about who we bring in
now to make sure that they like,even if I'm not doing something
right, or anyone's like, youknow, not in alignment that we
have we catch it for each other.

SPEAKER_01 (52:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
Two thoughts.
One one of which is uh in thedata in the psych world, um, if
you practice in a group settingor if you practice individually,
your outcomes, I forget thepercentage, but it was
significant.
You are significantly moreeffective in a group setting.
And and the reason is exactlywhat you just said, um, you

(52:47):
know, even in our clinic, a lotof it happens when you're
washing your hands, you know,like, oh, I just saw someone
who, and man, I cannot figurethat out.
And then I hear all theseconversations of people like,
like, well, I don't know, didyou ever think about uh but if
you're by yourself, you know,it's like it's really hard to
have that conversation byyourself.
And and you know, you you justnever get the input from another

(53:10):
another source or another pairof eyes to do that.
And the second thing is um italso is about that culture and
defining who you are, so thatperson, for instance, who was
with you does not fit the kindof culture that you, you know,
you want to have.
You know, we just had somebodywho looked at, you know, wanting

(53:31):
to join our practice, but youknow, she happened to be here at
a time when we were doing anadvanced training and she saw
really where the bus is going.
And she said, you know, thatdoesn't really resonate with the
work that I love and the way Ican best do this.
Like, thank you for saying that.
That's awesome, you know, andand and here's another

(53:52):
environment in our communitythat I think you might thrive,
and they would love to have you.
And that's where she is now, youknow.
So, you know, when you're clearabout who you are, what you do,
and why you do it, then then youdraw people to that.
And conversely, uh, you know,the the people who don't fit in

(54:14):
that thing, you're not gonnamake that alignment happen.
Um I'm gonna go back to thecello.
Yeah.
And I'm no, I'm not gonna playbecause then you'll just want to
turn the recording off.
Uh, are you kidding?

SPEAKER_03 (54:27):
I love listening to your cello at your dinner
parties.
It's one of the things I missmost about level two.
In fact, I was like, I need tocome to Champagne again.

SPEAKER_01 (54:35):
So the way you know that you're in tune is if you
are playing a note and then theother strings begin to vibrate,
right?
That that's resonance.
But you know, I I thought theother day when I was doing that,
that you know what?
I look for resonance in everypart of my life, you know, it's
in the cello, it's in it, youknow, does it resonances that

(54:58):
connection with another person?
Resonances, you know, thebusiness.
If we're all, you know, inalignment, you just feel that
like energy that just compoundsitself, and it's more than just
the one thing that's happening,it's vibrating at multiple
levels.
That's you know, it's it's theovertones that matter, and that

(55:18):
tells you you really are intune.

SPEAKER_03 (55:21):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, it's um it's it is aninteresting thing to be the like
the leader of the the ship andmaking sure that that stays
intact because I think it's likethat's one way thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:35):
Uh yeah, I mean, uh leadership is uh it's not easy.

SPEAKER_03 (55:41):
I have been resisting it, and my soul has
been saying, no, it's time foryou to be in more of a
leadership role, stop resistingit.
And um, I've been getting a lotof spiritual lessons on that
path lately, and um finallysurrendering and going, Okay, I
I hear you.
I'm gonna start embodying a moreof a leadership role.

(56:04):
And I think sometimes that meansbeing more vulnerable and you
know, speaking about things thatpeople will wholeheartedly
disagree with and still, youknow, operating from a place of
love and respect for all people.
And so it, yeah, it isinteresting.
Um, the challenge of like evenwanting to be more public, uh,
you know, even on social mediaand provide people with a

(56:24):
different angle on what massageis and pain and how we can we
can do better.
And um it I think you said it ona the call the other day where
the the trolls will will trollyou and and they're not the
people in the in the arena withthe the clients, they're not in
practice with people and they'rejust sitting in quiet judgment.
And I thought, oh, and they'rethe ones who have the loudest

(56:46):
voice, and the people whoprobably have a lot of wisdom
tend to hide because they don'twant to be, they don't want to
be in the battle, in the arena,I guess is the word.

SPEAKER_01 (56:58):
So yeah, and uh, you know, again, you know, then then
it's the is that an arena worthbeing in?
Like, you know, like uh, youknow, uh I again I'll go back to
Athens and the Athenian trapwhere you know people just
savored the love of the argumentand and you know, like I have

(57:19):
zero interest in that, you know.
Um, but if you can show me that,you know, you are consistently
delivering really great resultsin your clinic, I want to know
what the heck you're doing.
But if it's if it's about youknow just sitting behind the
keyboard and and and trying toimpress people with the
cleverness of your arguments, umI, you know, I am too old for

(57:44):
that.
Uh, you know, like really uhbecause clients do not care how
clever you think you are.
What they care about is can youdeliver the goods or not?
Yeah, and and to that end, youknow, like you can be this
wonderful caring therapist, andpeople will appreciate that, and
then they will disappear, right?

(58:06):
Because they're you know, boy,she is so wonderful.
But but I I still hurt, right?
Um and and all of those thingsyou can care, you can be
whatever, you can in the end, uhyou have to deliver results, and
and honestly, that's what it'sabout.
And and if we just keep workingat what is the best way to do

(58:29):
that, you know, and sustain it,then those things are of
interest to me.
But just uh the entertainingoneself, uh, you know, doing
these things, uh littleinterest, you know.
I have zero not little interest,zero interest.

SPEAKER_03 (58:47):
I am not competitive, I have zero
interest in um proving myself toother people.
I just like to get results forpeople because I care.

SPEAKER_01 (58:59):
I'm competitive, but if you're gonna be competitive,
you ought to compete in thethings that actually matter,
right?
So, you know, it's like youknow, what it's like I'm sure
you've had conversations withsomeone, and then you realize
there is no point to this,right?
Like I am wasting my time, andthen you're just like, okay, and
whatever, and you walk away.

(59:20):
So again, you know, energy idea,it's finite, right?
And you have to think, what isthe best use of my time right
now?
And what really matters that Ican walk away feeling like I
made a difference, and uh justjust incestuous arguing about
what I yeah, that does not inany way feel like I made a

(59:44):
difference in the world becauseit never stops.

SPEAKER_03 (59:47):
Yeah, no, I never engage in those arguments
anymore.
I'm I'm more just like, well,this is what I can do, and this
is what I studied, and this ishow I got here.
So um, and this is my mission inlife.
So I think.
When you understand like kind ofwho you are on a bigger scale or
what you come here to do andyou're connected with your
purpose, I feel like that is myNorth Star.

(01:00:09):
Like, and I'm not always excitedabout it because I'm always
like, I don't know if I want to,you know, do the things my soul
kind of like is pulling metowards.
But then, you know, it has neverbeen a bad result.
Like it led me, you know, to thepath of opening a wellness
center that I am very I love andI love that we've helped over
10,000 people in our community.
Like it, I mean, that's huge.

(01:00:30):
Like when you think about it,it's like what a a legacy.
And I I hope other people get toexperience that.
And I always try to dissuadepeople from the four-year
university like you.
I did not go either.
And I always thought that was ahindrance.
And later to find out itactually was a benefit because I
had the ability to be so more,much more open to kind of the

(01:00:54):
path of learning bodywork andnot having this kind of like
closed framework about how ithad to be.
And it was more like kind of itjust organically grew into what
it was supposed to be.
And um, I think because I hadthat curiosity and openness
about learning the the nextthing that like a client would

(01:01:15):
inevitably come in and I wouldhave to learn how to treat that
next.
And then it would always make mea better therapist because I
didn't have a closed mindsetabout how it needed to be.
And um, I think that's actuallyone of the benefits of massage
therapy when you find someonewho's really committed to the
craft and like also committed topatient care is that you you are

(01:01:36):
always questioning is this stillright?
Is this still accurate?
Is there a better way that Idon't know yet?
And then you start finding thesolutions, I think, when you ask
better questions.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:47):
You bet.
And so in the end, you know, ithelps us grow professionally,
but also personally, right?
And so, um, and I think that'sthe hallmark of this is that you
get to grow in both domains, youknow, and as a person, um, it it
teaches you deep lessons um onso many levels, and then you

(01:02:11):
know, professionally as well, toknow that you're of service um
and have made a difference inmany lives.
That's a really, really powerfulthing to fall back on and and uh
just know deep in your heartthat um yeah, in the end, uh
what what do you look back on?
It's the lives you touch for thelives you made a difference
with.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:30):
Yeah, that's that's the thing that that when I don't
want to do the things, I that'sthe thing that gets me going.
As then I just connect in withbeing of service um and helping
people.
Um that is what keeps me goingevery day, and I love it because
that's that's what energizes me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:48):
Yeah, it's the why, right?
And and I think that's thedifference between having uh
having a um a goal and having amission.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:58):
100%.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:00):
Yeah.
When when when the winds willblow, and the winds will always
blow, the storms will come.
Sometimes it's a typhoon.
Um you just have to like uh ifyou fall back on the mission,
you'll hang in there through it.
If you just have goals of thingsyou wanted to achieve, yeah, the
yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:27):
What are we doing today?
How are we bringing that intothe world?
And then that's what gets megoing.
Traditional goal setting doesnot work for me because I'm a
very mission-oriented person,but yeah.
Um so for I know we have toprobably go soon.
So I'm what if you were to thinkabout like new or uh, you know,
actually, I want to talk to thepeople in burnout because I

(01:03:49):
think we lost a lot of reallyqualified therapists because of
COVID.
I actually almost lost my clinicand um had to take on a
considerable amount ofchallenges to keep it going.
And, you know, the love of thework that we do is what my
mission actually is kind of whatkept it alive.

(01:04:10):
How do you what do you tellpeople who are in that phase of
their career where they're like,I think I should go do something
new?
Or is this really for meanymore?
I'm bored or like I'm gettinginjured, or um, you know, what
is massage therapy injury ishugely likely if you're doing it
like in a way that's not ofservice to your body.
So how do you have a long careerin it?

unknown (01:04:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:35):
Through the burnout is the r is the real question.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:37):
Yeah, I think it's uh an attitude of endless
discovery.
And I usually when you'reburning out a plateau kind of
thing, it's about um it's reallyabout lack of growth.
You feel like you're just you'vehit a level and you're just

(01:04:57):
going through the motions, as wetalked about before.
You need to do something to joltyourself out of that.
Um, and it it always involves anew challenge, a new something,
a new way of looking at things.
Um and and I I I feel like it,you know, it's interesting with

(01:05:18):
with so many people to you know,over the years to help them see
like it's the same thing, butseen in a different way.
Um, like I said earlier, like apiece of music.
When I sit with um a friend ofmine who has a PhD in
composition, you know, and Ilisten to some piece of music,

(01:05:39):
some symphony or something, andI was like, oh, that's really
pretty, but I've heard thisbefore.
And then he says, Do youunderstand that?
And then all of a sudden it'slike, are you kidding?
Like, like suddenly I hear andsee the same thing that I've
heard so many times, but I neverunderstood what it actually
meant.
And um and the same is true withanatomy and um with our you

(01:06:02):
know, treatment of people.
The danger is Einstein saidabout us, what holds us back
isn't what we don't know, it'swhat we think we know.
And you're never curious aboutthings you think you understand.
And so somehow you have to havethis little awareness that,
like, holy crap, there's stuff Idon't know.

(01:06:22):
And it's really hard to be tohave burnout about like a whole
set of challenges that are infront of you, especially if you
loved it in the first place,right?
And you know, it's a little bitlike if if your relationship is
getting stale, you know, withyour significant other, right?
You don't go, well, I'm gonnalook for somebody else, you
know, there's more interesting,right?
Like really you're gonna startall over again.

(01:06:44):
You're just like you you're notlistening to that person, and
and there's a whole place ofdiscovery that will takes a
lifetime because that moment,that person, and you are not the
same that day as the next day,right?
So who are you today?
All right, um, instead ofsaying, I know I know, you know,
like um at some point in the endof your life, right?

(01:07:11):
People are like, oh my gosh, Iwish I would have paid more
attention.
You know, and I and you have, Ihave been with people at the end
of their life, and uh and whatthey felt like they didn't need
more stuff.
They didn't need more, they justwish they would have been there
and fully experienced you know,the things that they already

(01:07:33):
had.
Yeah.
So let's not make that samemistake, right?
Let's learn from those peopleand do it now, uh, because at
some point it is too late.
And so that in front of my uh inmy office, I have the scroll
that I brought back from Japan,Ichigo Ichi, which is a famous
scroll from Japan that says,every opportunity for service is

(01:07:56):
an opportunity never to return.
But it it came in the days ofthe samurai priests, where this,
you know, you would be, youknow, uh out back at your house,
and all of a sudden this priestwould come up and just beg for a
bowl of rice.
And and the thing was thatperson, you will never see them
again in the rest of your life.

(01:08:17):
This is that moment to savorthat moment because it will
never happen again.
And honestly, this interview,you and I, this connection, just
will never happen again, right?
And and you know, so well, Ihope it happens again.
Yeah, yeah, but not in this way,not in right.
And so so I think once you dothat, it's really burnout is

(01:08:41):
lack of paying attention.
And and sometimes it takessomeone just to peel back the
depths of of whatever activityit is, and sometimes it's your
whole life, right?
That you realize, oh mygoodness, there's so much to
save her.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:58):
Yeah, I think that is the wisdom of midlife, like
and beyond.
Like it's that like, oh gosh,everything is so much more
beautiful than I realized.
And like every day when I walkinto some, I'm I'm I'm almost
just like I'm filled withappreciation that that's like
this place where I get to spendmy day.

(01:09:18):
And I just like I feel so muchgratitude, and I think that
brings me into a state ofpresence, and um I think that's
what keeps me out of burnout,and it's that state of just
gratitude for getting to do thiswork and loving something so
much, like that.

(01:09:40):
I don't think people get toexperience in their careers like
a lot, a lot of people.
And I think that if I could giftanyone that joy of getting to be
of service and making moneydoing it at the same time and
having an impact, I mean it'sworth the struggle and the hard
days and the challenges that abusiness goes through.
Like it's it's worth it to justbe with that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:03):
Yeah.
And and again, if you lovesomething and if you love
something, that also means youhave to care for it, right?
And and in our field, caring forit is learning, right?
And and doing doing the hardwork of the all that it takes to
be a really great therapist.

(01:10:23):
And um, and that is uh endlesslearning uh to be of of the best
possible service.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:31):
Absolutely.
It is, and that's uh self-careand boundaries with clients and
you know, really getting clearon who you enjoy working with
and who you shouldn't be workingwith.
And those are things that werereally important because in the
beginning you always take on allthe clients because you're you
just want money or experience.
And then I think your your craftstarts to get a little bit more
fine-tuned and you can be alittle more picky about, you

(01:10:54):
know, I actually have reallystrong boundaries, and I don't
let people treat us like that inour clinic.
And actually, you don't get todo that here.
And and you know, being someonewho is an advocate for the
people who work for you, that'sactually that's a skill I didn't
know I was gonna have todevelop.
And and um I actually like thatabout about me that I'm not
afraid to like hold the spacefor, you know, or to be the

(01:11:19):
person who protects the theclinicians that work for me too
from people who are not in thatgreat, you know, space.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:25):
So that's what leaders do.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:28):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:32):
All right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:33):
Oh, well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you.
And I just want to say that it'sit's very much because you show
up and do your work that I showup and do my work and and you
have really inspired me.
And you know, everyone who comesthrough my clinic is grateful
that you followed your path andnot playing the cello or the the

(01:11:53):
guitar.
Everyone that uh every thehundreds of thousands of people
probably that you've touched onthe planet vicariously through
the people you have trained aregrateful that you pursued this
instead of.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:06):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:06):
So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:07):
Well, it's a special community of uh people.
And um, you know, for me, when Iget tired, I I think about
yourself and so many people outthere are doing the hard work,
and um we all like we all leanon each other.
So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:22):
And thank you for your time this evening.
I'm so grateful.
And I hope you have a niceevening.
And I'll put all your links downbelow so people can find you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:30):
All right, thank you so much.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:32):
Good night.

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