11. Somebody You Love is a parent (Charlie Swinton)

Episode Transcript
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Jenna Love (00:00):
Welcome to Somebody You Love or The Sale of Two

(00:04):
Titties. I'm Jenna Love.

Holly Harte (00:07):
And I'm Holly Harte,

Jenna Love (00:09):
and we're experts in disappointing our parents,
breaching community guidelines,and banging the people who vote
against our rights. Helloeveryone. I'm Jenna and I am on
Darug and Gundungurra land.
Holly is on Ngunawal land. Andwe have Charlie calling in today
from the land of the Wurundjeripeople of the Kulin nation. We
recognise the continuingconnection of Aboriginal and

(00:32):
Torres Strait Islanders to theland and waters across this
beautiful place. We pay ourrespects to elders past and
present and we extend thatrespect to any First Nations
people who may be listening.

It's important for us to make it clear that anyone
who appears on the podcast canonly speak from their own
experience. All of us on theshow today are cis white women
and we acknowledge the privilegethat comes with that both within
the sex industry and outside ofit.

Jenna Love (00:58):
As usual, because this podcast is about the adult
industry, it really isn'tsuitable for those who are not
adults. Just a warning also thatduring Shit People Say we talk
about Nazism, which is reallynot something that I was
expecting to come up on theshow. But that is the world that
we live in.

Today, we have Charlie Swinton on the show.
Charlie is a full service sexworker by night and mum of two
by day known as MILFy. She isbased in Melbourne, but when not
in lockdown she tours thecountry as well.

Jenna Love (01:33):
Hi Charlie, welcome to the podcast.

Welcome.

Charlie Swinton (01:36):
Hey, guys, so good to be here.

Jenna Love (01:39):
Fabulous. We're very excited to have you here. You're
our second guest. We're startingto maybe know what it's like to
have guests on.

Oh, I'm fangirling because I've been
listening to you since the firstepisode. Amazing work.

Jenna Love (01:51):
Aw fabulous. Thank you so much.
So we've got a bunch ofquestions for you, things that
Holly and I were thinking aboutthat we wanted to ask you about.
And we've also got quite a fewquestions actually from our
patrons. So we'll start off withour questions.

Lovely. Shoot.

Okay, so can you tell us how you got into the
industry?

The creation myth, Charlie style?

Yes.

I am an accidental sex worker and a very
late starter. I had a marriagebreakdown and started to sort of
look around at what a lady withchildren who's a little older
might do in her love life andwas hooking up with a few
people. And I don't know, Istarted rejecting people,
because that's what you do. Andthey started offering me money.
And I thought that's ridiculous,who would want to pay money to

(02:41):
have sex with me. But then oneday, you know, single mom and
all that I thought, oh, well,maybe I could give that a go.
And it wasn't--it was a lovelyguy who made that first offer,
it just wasn't my type. So Iwent and I gave it a go. And it
turned out, I really loved it.
The guy was obviously on thespectrum, and didn't have a lot
of social contact and stuff. AndI made him so happy. And I
walked out of that appointmentwith $300. And that was enough

(03:04):
to put petrol in my car, buy allmy groceries, you know, and pay
a bill that was desperatelyneeding payment. And so from
there, I just sort of went, oh,I don't know, how do I do this?
And I put an ad on Craigslist,right before they shut it down.
I was just inundated withqueries, and it sort of all went
on from there.

Pretty cool. So it sparked a fire this initial, you
know, sort of wading into it andyou went, this is something I
can definitely commit to.

Well, it turned out--I was one of those girls
that grew up with thatfairytale, you know, that I was
going to find the perfect man,and it was all going to be
gorgeous. And we were going tobe, you know,

I can relate

together forever, and everything was
gonna be fine.

Jenna Love (03:46):
Holly still has that fairy tale.
Yeah, I'm--my dream is to be awife, like that is my life

Look it can happen. It can, but for a lot of
goals.
people, I think it's a big lie.
And when you when you findyourself sort of at the end of
what you thought was gonna lastforever, you have to really dig
deep to sort of find a new wayof being in the world and, and
all that. And I have a fewpersonal kind of circumstances
that mean that this work worksreally well for me, which meant

(04:13):
that when I did accidentallyfall into it, I just found that
it suited everything I needed. Ihave a few little health issues,
not major ones, but ones thatmake it difficult to work full
time. And I have a little fellowwho's got autism. So it's really
great to be able to be home asoften as I can be, and still
make enough money to support himin his education and his therapy
and all the rest of it. So I hadno way to do that. And this,

(04:35):
this has saved my family.

Oh, that's massive.
I don't know I'm sorry to askmaybe a really basic question.
How long have you been in theindustry?

Four and a bit years? Not very long. Really.

Jenna Love (04:48):
I think you're a veteran.

And I know that I think there are some people
who are listening who will havea very different experience to
me and it's not empowering andit doesn't have to be
empowering, but for me it is,for me it's lifted me out of a
poverty treadmill that I waslooking down the barrel of for
the rest of my life, and hasdone the same for my children
and the next generation of myfamily. So I'm really conscious

(05:10):
that not everyone has thatexperience, that it can be
traumatic for some andeverything but for me, it has
saved me.

Jenna Love (05:16):
Absolutely. Look, everyone's story is valid and
needs to be heard. And thank youso much for sharing so honestly,
and yeah, I think that's it'sreally wonderful to hear

I am a heart on sleeve kind of girl.

Jenna Love (05:29):
Yeah. You are. Very true. Yeah. Hookers with hearts
of gold? So speaking of yourkids, you I mean, you proudly
advertise as a MILF, you areCharlie MILFy Swinton.

I am.

Jenna Love (05:44):
So do you get many clients who are really
seeing--like seeking you outbecause that's, that's a fetish?
They're looking to do an olderwoman fantasy? Or have you had
people that are sort ofuncomfortable with it?

I've had both.
Vastly more on the on the proside of things than the con side
of things. But there is a bit ofa myth about young men wanting
MILFs. I'm not saying thatdoesn't happen. I do have a lot
of young clients who love theolder woman thing. But the vast
majority of people who findMILFy really appealing are dads,
it's dads.

That doesn't surprise me at all. Because I
find, you know, a lot of menwant to relate to someone on
their own age or, you know, inthat sort of age group where
they just they feel safe andconnected, and that they can
relate to not that they have to

there's a bit of shared life experience.

Yeah

And a lot of people are, I don't know if this
might be politically incorrect,but I do see quite a lot of men
that are married. And I don'tthink they don't love and want
to be with their wives. Thereare circumstances in everyone's
life that I don't know of, and Idon't judge. But I can see that
for a lot of people. I thinkthere's a real wish there that
they could have that. And soMILFy can sort of fill a little

(06:54):
gap, you know, for thatcompassionate, wifely type
person, although I can be verynaughty and fun too, I'm not
horribly boring wife!

Jenna Love (07:02):
Not at all!

And often people--younger guys will come
to see me. And they really havea great time and they love the
MILFy thing. But you can seethat for them it's a little bit
more confronting, like it's someperhaps not the sort of sex they
used to - older women reallyknow what they want. They don't
hesitate in asking for it orsaying no, not like that.
Whereas--

Jenna Love (07:25):
I've been told off by Charlie before!

Have you?

You have not.

Jenna Love (07:30):
I got a tiny bit teethy

Oh, I remember that.

I like direct though

Jenna Love (07:38):
It was all very amicable. Yeah, no, she's
fantastic. It's great.

Oh, my doubles partners do know too that, you
know, if they need--if they'vegot a client that needs bossing,
I'm a good choice.

Jenna Love (07:50):
Very very true. So one of our patrons, as a bit of
a follow up to this, one of ourpatrons, is a sex worker who is
35 years old, and a mom of twokids. And she asked about this
sort of question. She said, "Whydid you decide to be open about
having kids about being a MILFon your ads?" she asked, "Does
it help to get more bookings?
And what kind of clients areattracted?", which you have kind

(08:11):
of answered. She's askingbecause she's sort of, I think
questioning whether or not sheshould be open about that in her
advertising.

Look, if this comes with a big caveat of
course, that anything I say mayor may not work for other
people. So I am no expert in anyway. I also am really cognizant
of security issues and thingswhen it comes to family and
children in this industry. Soyou will find that my children
have got a moniker, "the tinyterrorists". And other than that

(08:43):
no one knows anything aboutthem. I have revealed the
special needs situation today.
But you do need to be verycareful about advertising that
you have children, because thereare people out there that will
target you because of that. Butso outside of the little
disclaimer and warning, Idecided to own it because I come
from a different background. Idid not come from a sex work

(09:04):
background. I came from aswinging background. And the
online hookups and all the restof it and in that market MILFs
where it's at?

Jenna Love (09:13):
Ah, okay, interesting.

Yeah,

Jenna Love (09:16):
Everybody wants to bonk the MILF, right. All the
unicorns in the older swinginggroups are MILFs. That's what
it's all about. So I didn't havea negative connotation
associated with the word andwhen I came and joined the sex
industry, I saw several otherworkers in my vague age kind of
group who hated the word andactively told people off if they

(09:38):
used it, really, really didn'twant to be associated with that.
And I'm not sure why. But when Ihad positive reactions from
clients about that I just wentoh bugger it, okay, MILF! Yes, I
am. And someone who I sawregularly for a very long time
actually called me MILFy. And itstuck.

That's how I've always known you Yeah, and I
suppose a lot of people do.
You've always been MILFy.
I know. But I wasn't. I was justCharlie, I was actually
Charliegirl for a long time,because I was an online kind of
person for a while. And yeah,Charliegirl was my name. Older
workers, they often enter theindustry under this impression
that they won't do as well asyoung whippersnappers. Because

(10:19):
you know, doesn't matter howpretty you are, your body does
age. And as you head into yourlate 30s, (and 40s around the
corner), you don't look the sameas everyone else. But it's not
true. And I thought that too, Ithought I wasn't going to be
able to really make a go of it,I just--see how it went. But I
didn't have a lot of hope. Andit turns out, there's a massive
market for mature workers,perhaps even more so than some

(10:42):
of the other segments, not thereally young ones, the 18 to 22
year olds, or the 20 to 24 yearolds, whatever it is, always do
really, really well. But thereis something that comes once you
hit a certain age or a certainlevel of maturity, I don't think
there's a number attached to itnecessarily, your dates or your
bookings change and people, Idon't know, there's a real
personal kind of care element tothe whole thing, as well as the

(11:04):
sexy nasty, you know, "spank myass like a drum" stuff. So it's,
yeah, I don't know, I think thatolder workers often feel like
they're coming to the end ofthings. And it's not necessarily
the case, you can be just assuccessful with kids, without
kids, old, young, there is a wayto make it work. You just got to
be creative about it, andembrace who you are. MILFy has

(11:27):
done me a great service. And oneday I will graduate and become a
cougar of some sort with a newname and you know, a new
approach. And that'll be justfine, too.

Jenna Love (11:36):
Maybe one day, you'll be G-MILFy

GILFy, yeah.

Jenna Love (11:39):
Oh yeah, GILFy!

I have, I have a few jokes about the GILFy
thing. I don't think I'm goingto be GILFy. That's gonna appeal
in quite the same way. But a MrsRobinson, the same kind of
character, not that name, butyou know, something like that. I
think that might work for thenext stage.

Cute

Jenna Love (11:55):
I look forward to the new Charlie, the next stage
of Charlie

I have my last name already. You want to know
my last name will be?

Jenna Love (12:03):
Okay.

So I don't know--you guys are a little bit
younger than me, but the personwho played Mrs. Robinson in The
Graduate movie was AnneBancroft. And she was hot. And
older. And so I'm going to besomething Bangcroft with a 'g'.

I love that.

Jenna Love (12:22):
That's fantastic.

So I'm putting that out there, it's mine, keep
your hands off it.

Jenna Love (12:28):
That's fantastic.

So here's another really typical question for a
MILF. What do your kids thinkthat you do? And do you ever
plan to tell them about the workas they get older?

So I'm out to everyone in my circles, my
friends, my family, the onlypeople that don't know are my
children, and my grandmother,who's 94. And let's not upset 94
year old nanna.

Jenna Love (12:52):
Na, she doesn't need that

There's no need at this stage to tell her. But
as far as my kids go, I tellthem I'm an event manager and I
do hospitality work, because ithelps me cover the nighttime
type nature of my work or theinterstate travel that I need to
do. And it actually does align alittle bit vaguely with what I
used to do. I've got a corporatebackground, I've had a couple of
careers. Now this is my thirdone. And by far and away the

(13:16):
best. I don't have a plan totell them, I am going to play
that as it comes. But we have alot of open conversations in our
house about sex, in ageappropriate ways obviously. My
oldest is just now getting to anage where these sorts of things
are very interesting. He readsomething in the newspaper a

(13:37):
little while ago, or online, howold am I? About about a
stripper, and we--that led to aconversation about how it was
just a job. And it was no bigdeal, really. And you know, he
was quite open to that way ofthinking of things. So
generally, my plan is to educatethem really well in a sexually
positive way, in a feminist kindof way, so that when they do

(13:59):
come to the point where theyeither find out or I feel
comfortable telling them, theground's sort of been prepped a
little bit so that the receptionwon't be too bad. The other
thing to say is that my motherwas a sex worker. And, and I--

Wow!

I know right?
And I didn't know that growingup. I had no idea. She didn't do
it throughout my wholechildhood, when I was quite
young. But she told me about it.
was about 19.
And I didn't react well to theidea of my mother having sex at
all. But I didn't think less ofher because it was work. I

(14:35):
didn't want to talk to her aboutit any further after she told me
about it. And I never really diduntil I became a sex worker. But
I didn't think less of her. Ididn't lose respect for her. And
I'm hoping that I'll have thesame experience with my kids.

Jenna Love (14:49):
Can I ask what her reaction was and how that
conversation went down betweenthe two of you when you told her
about your career change?

Yeah , well look, I mean, when my mom worked
in this industry, obviouslythings were really different.
and they're brothers, you know,you're their Sister, I think
Yellow Pages was the go to andmy mom worked for an agency. But
again, I think in her day, thearrangements with agencies and
that were quite different too,so it was reliable for her and
she was paid well, and she wassent to safe places. That was

(15:17):
her experience, not suggestingthat's everyone's experience. So
that's understandablewhen I talked to her about it,
she was quite worried that Iwould have someone else in
control of who I saw and thatsort of stuff. And once she came
to the realisation that I wasthoroughly independent, and
treating it as a properbusiness, as I would have done
with any other work I might havetaken on, she was really
supportive, really supportive.

(15:39):
And I did at one stage, sit herdown and said, "Mom, I think
this is actually like a calling,I'm really good at this, I not
just making the money, I'mactually making people's lives
better. And I feel like I'mdoing something useful in the
world". And from that point onwrds she's just been really,

Jenna Love (15:52):
and they've always been very protective and all
eally supportive. My brothersad a little bit of "ew" kind o
reaction. Because I'm a lot oder than they are. And I sort o
like a second mom,that sort of stuff. But they
have not in any way shunned meor suggested that I should, you
know, do something different.

(16:15):
They've been concerned for mysafety. And they've been
concerned not to be told anydetails about my sex life in any
way whatsoever.
As it should be.

Yeah.

Jenna Love (16:25):
So you've said that you are out to everyone, except
for your kids and your grandma.
So how does that go in terms oflike school mums? Are you afraid
of the other mums finding out?

So obviously, yes, not being out to my kids
means that I'm not out to thecommunities that they're in
either. My kids go to areligious school. So there is a
little bit of concern about whatwould happen if they find out
although I've accepted theinevitability of that happening
at some point, I'm mostlyface-in, but there is enough
face-out stuff of me that itcould possibly be picked up by a
friend at school in high schoolonce we we're there. And as I

(16:57):
said, my plan is to just dealwith it as it comes. I just--I
try to be honest and open aboutthese things. And I'm just
hoping it will get me through

Jenna Love (17:04):
sounds like as good a plan as any to me. I mean, you
can't you can't really plan forit.

Well, I mean, you know, you cannot have
preconceptions about otherpeople's reactions to things. My
very brief jaunt into the worldof SWERFs has taught me that
there is some nastiness outthere waiting for me. But
there's no point worrying aboutit, because I can't control it.

Jenna Love (17:23):
Yeah. Spoken like a true mum. I'm sure my mum's
given me that advice before

Much easier to give it out than to adhere to
it, tell you what.

So you are someone who does tour. How do you deal
with that with the kids? And howdo they handle it when you're
away for a while?

I have a lot of support. The kids father is
fully aware of what I do andreally supportive, and when I'm
away they're with him. So I'mlucky that we have a good
relationship that way. My motherand my mother in law are also
both really supportive. Oh, mymother in law doesn't know what
I do either. There we go. Sothey all step in to take care of

(18:05):
the childcare stuff. My littlestone when I come home is always
very emotional and clingy. So Ido try to limit the amount of
touring I do. Probably peoplehaven't noticed but I tend to do
it in blocks. So I'll do two orthree tours in a row with a
couple of weeks in between. Andthen I won't tour for several
months. And then I do thatagain. And that was my rhythm.
Although obviously at themoment, I mean, I have cancelled

(18:27):
seven tours running. I'm notgoing anywhere. And my kids are
very happy.

Jenna Love (18:34):
I have to say like I have met up with you while you
were on tour. And I have to saythat I believe, correct me if
I'm wrong, there's an element ofperhaps freedom that comes with
your time spent away from thehome?

Absolutely, yes, it is different for someone
who is a mum and having to doall the housework and the
cooking and the, you know,running children around and
stuff in normal life. So whenyou do go away, it is a bit like
a holiday, in a way. So there'sa work element, obviously. And
when I'm touring and away frommy children, I feel like I
should be making the most ofthat time, financially. But I'm

(19:11):
away, and I can sleep in and Idon't have to cook and you know,
lovely men show up and want tospend nice times with me and
bring me presents. And yeah, itis a bit of a fairy tale kind of
existence. But you have to bereally careful because it's so
easy to get lost in that fantasyworld. And I have to come back
to earth because there arepeople waiting for me.

Jenna Love (19:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
And as you said, there is alwaysthat overarching pressure of
"I'm here to make money". Sothat's--

Yes,

Jenna Love (19:43):
--You've got to do that because of those people who
when you come back who aredepending on you.

Yeah, look and because time away from home is
difficult, given thecircumstances at home with my
kids - there are specialarrangements we need to have in
place and things. I really holdmyself to that. So y ou'll very
rarely find Charlie on tourgoing sightseeing, or anything.
That's not what it's about.

Jenna Love (20:05):
Of course. So obviously, lock downs are
difficult for most people. Allof us here on the call are stuck
in our respective states. But Ican imagine that the combination
of not being able to do your joband everything that comes with
that, and having to suddenlypivot to becoming essentially a
homeschool teacher, that soundslike expert level lockdown into
me. So how has COVID been foryour family? And I guess

(20:29):
hopefully, have there been anypositives that have come out of
it?

Yeah, lockdowns are hard. I think they're hard
whether you've got kids or not -just in different ways. For us,
yes, I've become homeschoolextraordinaire person. It is
really, really becoming a slog.
I think at first there was agreat novelty that we all
enjoyed having extra timetogether. And we did lovely
things. And I sort of thought tomyself, "Oh, this is okay, my
kids will grow up and they'lllook back and remember this

(20:53):
time, it we'll be a closefamily" and all that sort of
stuff. But as it's dragged on,the impact on them, emotionally
and things has become reallysevere as it would be if we
unlocked and everyone got sick.
I'm not advocating either way.
But I can see what's happeningto them. And I can't stop it.
And it's quite difficult to tolive with, really, no matter how

(21:14):
many, you know, dog walks andtreats and movie nights and
things I do, I can't stop what'shappening. And it's a little bit
heartbreaking. And then on topof that, yes, we've got
financial problems, like a lotof workers I'm not eligible for
several different sorts ofsupport. So I found myself in a
bit of a limbo position. Andit's only with the very, very

(21:35):
lovely support of clients thatI'm actually still able to have
a house to live in. And food onmy table. So this lockdown in
particular has been the hardestone, and I will not make any
secret of the fact that I'm notcoping all that well. I mean, I
am. The daily stuff ishappening. But the emotional
trauma of it is starting toreally add up,

Jenna Love (21:58):
What number is this for you guys?

Number six, but we have had four, five, and six
back to back with only a fewweeks in between

Jenna Love (22:05):
Yeah

And I am a good little saver.

Jenna Love (22:08):
And number number two was very long as well.

Number two was huge, right. And then we got out
of number two, and we cruisedalong it was okay, there were a
few little shorter, sharperones, or, you know, some
restrictions brought in. All ofthat was okay, although work
dies off every time there is ashort, sharp lockdown for about
a month to six weeks afterwards,takes a little while for it to
come back. And then because wehad these ones back to back,
then one of our unlockingperiods was also over the school

(22:32):
holidays, which is always aquiet time in our industry for
everyone. I think no matter howgood you are at saving, it's
just not enough time to rekindlethat little nest egg that you
need. So it's just yeah, it isgetting harder and harder and
harder. And I'm in Melbourne, Ithink most people know that. But
Victoria is looking less andless like they're going to come
out anytime soon. And yeah,look, it's just heartbreaking.

(22:55):
But not just for workers. It'sheartbreaking for everybody.

Jenna Love (22:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for for sharing, asyou said, it's tough for
everyone. Yeah, I think it'shelpful to hear other's
experiences in some way. I knowHolly and I chat a lot about how
we're coping, or not coping, asthe days go. And the one tiny
thing that helps me is knowingthat other people feel the same

(23:18):
way. And that it's not that it'sme--

She loves to know that I feel awful

That's cos she's in New South Wales, right?
I'm teasing you Jenna

Jenna Love (23:33):
Somewhat comforting.
I know, it's somewhat comfortingto know that it's the situation
not myself, if that makes sense.

Yeah

Jenna Love (23:39):
I think you're right. Shit's been pretty good

That's right.
And look I think that thefor us, you know?
Look, it mightbe in the long term. And it's
country is full of very angryand unhappy, severely stressed
probably really good for ourkids in the long term, not right
people for very good reason. Andit's really difficult not to
blame people for it. And thereare some people that deserve
blame, I know. But itgenerally--this is a pandemic.
It's a naturally occurringphenomena that is ruining our

(24:01):
lives. And there's no one reallyto blame. I mean no one person
has a perfect answer for whatthis is or how we get out of it.
And it's just awful. And I wasthinking that our generation
just isn't used to this level ofsuffering and you know, fiscal
bum fucking. We're just not. ButI look back, I think about my

(24:26):
grandmother, who is stillkicking, as I mentioned earlier,
and she lived through thedepression, the war, a polio
epidemic, a flu epidemic for herchildren as a mother, all that
sort of stuff. And it's not--itwas something that they came to
accept - the death, ups anddowns, financial ruin, all of
those things are part of life.
And our generation is not usedto that. We are used to "I'm
making these plans. This is whatmy life's gonna look like. I

(24:49):
shall now execute the plan. Hereis my life". That's not the way
the world really works. And Ithink it's been really hard to
come to terms with that.
this moment, because they willbe able to deal with whatever

(25:10):
life throws at them. And I havea feeling life has a few things
left to throw.

Jenna Love (25:14):
Yeah, look, things things don't seem to be on the
upward slant at the moment

the climate change is on it's way.

And that's what I was thinking. Yeah, exactly.

Jenna Love (25:23):
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stepping away from the clunky design of traditional
platforms, their two productstryst.link and switter.at are
refreshing and well neededchanges in both presentation and
mission.

And both are free to join and open to all

Jenna Love (25:56):
You can find both of our profiles on Tryst. And I
love how it is so clearlydesigned by sex workers.

Yep. And I love how straightforward and easy it is
to use and how much they clearlysupport the sex working
community.

Jenna Love (26:09):
And also how responsive they are when it
comes to feedback and customerservice.

Check out their website assemblyfour.com (four
the word not the number) formore info.
We have some wonderful patronquestions this week with some
really insightful and possiblychallenging questions. So good
luck, MILFy

Jenna Love (26:33):
also some silly ones.

Yeah, and a few fun ones. Yeah. Okay. We have our
first question. I know youadvertise on multiple platforms,
how do you think thatexpectations vary depending on
the platform through which theclient approaches you?

What I would say is that there are genuine
and beautiful clients hiding inall of the different mediums
where I advertise, whichincludes directories and things
and also Twitter, the differencis in the volume of crap you
have to wade through to findthem. So there's that. If you
were to look at it from theother perspective, you've got

(27:07):
your quotation marks, high end,quotation marks, directories, I
think those clients areexpecting, you know, a certain
level of professionalism. And ifthey don't get that they're not
happy. Whereas some of the othersites, they're a little more
casual, they're approaching itwith a more casual attitude
overall, usually, although thatsaid, there are exceptions. You

(27:28):
know, some of my biggestspending clients have come from
places you might not havethought to find them, like
Escorts and Babes or something.
But I did have to wade through awhole lot of, you know, "u
available babe?" stuff to findthem.

Jenna Love (27:42):
Yeah, look, there are certain websites that are
sort of known as, you know, thatif you advertise on there, you
are going to have to wadethrough a bunch of time wasters,
trolls, etc, right?

And I think that to make the most of those
sorts of environments, you haveto have a, an approach or a
demeanour, that means thatthey're not going to make you
angry. So I have a rule, Ianswer all of the queries that I
get that have content in them,not necessarily the ones that
just say, "Hey, you there?", or"babe?" or whatever, I don't
necessarily answer those ones.
But even the ones where it'sthis stilted sentences, or they

(28:16):
can't spell or whatever, or theymay be even a tiny bit rude, I
answer all of them. And I waitfor the response to see whether
I'll progress from there or not.
And if they give me a responsethat I don't like, I don't
berate them, or tell them off,either. Just stop answering. Or
I politely say, "Look, I'm notinterested dah dah dah wish you

(28:36):
luck". And off they go. I thinkit's really important not to
lose my cool, not because ofthem, but because of me. Because
then I start to get bitter, andstart to expect my clients to be
taking advantage or to be comingfrom a certain mindset. And a
lot of the time, they're not - alot of the time, they just don't
have any contact with ourindustry. And they don't know

(28:57):
how to make an inquiry in theway that we want them to. So
often, I'm not talking abouthand holding. But often if you
read between the terriblesentence structure, there's a
lovely person there, you know?

Jenna Love (29:13):
Yeah, my rule is three messages. I think
sometimes giving them a littlebit more of an opportunity,
maybe their nerves, the initialnerves go away a little bit or
you can give a bit more spacefor the real person to come
through

There's a lot of people that maybe they don't
like--so I require deposits forevery single person that comes
to see me and a lot of peoplethey don't like that. But if I
deal with them really politelyand explain, you know, very
clearly that my reasons arebecause of the risk to me and
the risk to my income, and thatit's not a reflection on me
trusting them or not trustingthem. It's an act of faith. And

(29:50):
so that we can start ourrelationship in a good fashion
from both sides. I politelyexplain that to everybody who
objects and most of them I neverhear from again, but A lot of
them I do, a lot of them willsend a query a few weeks later
and say, "Oh, look, I had tothink about it, you really do
seem genuine. I'd really like togo ahead with the booking". So I
think losing your stuff atpeople is sort of shooting

(30:11):
yourself in the foot, eventhough it's really frustrating
to have to keep doing it.

Yeah.

Jenna Love (30:17):
So okay, another question about expectations. How
have client expectations changedover your experience in the
industry?

My expectation of clients when I started, I had
no contact with sex work either.
And I had the same stigmatisingperceptions of clients as
everyone else. I thought, "whoam I going to meet? Who are
these weirdos and creeps" anddadadadada and then I met them.
And it turns out, they'reactually really lovely, normal
people with normal lives whohave, you know, good jobs, bad

(30:46):
jobs, in between jobs, who havemanners, no manners, in between
manners, it's the full gamut.
And so I actually had my faithrestored somewhat in men by
becoming a sex worker, notbecause of the idiots on the
phone who say nasty things, butbecause almost everyone who
appears in my room or who I goto visit is lovely. And it may

(31:08):
not be my version of lovely,everyone is trying their best
from where they are coming from.
So their version of being niceto someone might be offering you
a glass of water, right? That'slovely. They're trying to make
you feel comfortable. Someoneelse's version is giving you a
bottle of, you know, $500champagne. But whichever one it
is, as long as they're makingsome effort to create a level of
comfort for the two of you, thenthat's pretty cool. And, um, I

(31:30):
had lost a little bit of faithbecause of the relationship
stuff and everything before Icame. And this has been
restoring

What is your favourite type and/or length of
booking?

Well, you know, we're here to make money. "I
love all the bookings!" Thatsaid, I love a dinner date,
obviously, not just because it'sa longer booking, but because
it's so nice to sit and have theanticipation build and have a
little glass of wine and a bitof banter. I'm reasonably good
at talking to all sorts ofdifferent people I have dinner

(32:05):
dates in pubs in in liketakeaway fish and chips on the
beach, or in a fancy restaurantor a hotel, it doesn't really
matter to me where we are, it'sspending that little bit of time
to get to know each other just alittle bit and like each other -
because liking each other leadsto really awesome sex. Outside
of the dinner date, my favouriteis two hours. I like to have you

(32:26):
come see me, I've got 15 minutesor so to sit to have a drink
with you or talk to you orwhatever, throw you in the
shower, get you in bed, there'stime to have more than one go,
there's time to have a littlechat in between sessions, and
when you leave, I feel like Iactually know someone I've got
to get to know someone again.
Whereas the one hour one, I dolove, but it is much more
functional.

Jenna Love (32:49):
It is quite-- like an hour does go by quite quickly
doesn't it?

It really does.
And I'm happy to do more thanone go in an hour. That's not a
problem for me. But there's nota lot of talking, which is fine.
But it does mean I don't knowmuch about you. And you know,
you've been inside me and Idon't know anything about you.
It is a weird feeling.

Jenna Love (33:07):
I think you were one of the first sex workers I saw,
in my sort of circles at least,that started offering 'Netflix
and Chill' packages.

I wasn't the first, I do remember that I got
the idea from somewhere else.
But yes, it was early on. Andthey're really popular. Really,
really popular. Because thesocial element spent in the room
too. I think some workersstruggle to know how to
structure that price wise andbehaviour wise and all the rest
of it. I'm a bit casual about myapproach to some things and not
others. So in Netflix and chill,I don't mind if we sit on the

(33:38):
couch and have a bit of asmooch. You know, but the actual
business end of things doesn'tstart till after the Netflix.

Jenna Love (33:47):
Yeah, cool. I've never done that sort of booking
myself and I know Holly doesoffer them too. So I find it
interesting, I think I'd enjoy

But I split mine. I don't really like to do Netflix
and chill. I don't like to mixit because that's that whole
thing about you either book asession with me for sex. And
that's a four hour booking offull priced, you know, or you
book the snuggle session becauseotherwise I feel like people
take advantage and like you saidit's really about being able to

(34:16):
assert your own boundaries. Andfor me I feel like people who
would usually book four hoursand pay the full price will book
the Netflix and chill and thenjust push boundaries the whole
Netflix time. So I prefer todelineate those really clearly
and say you either book ifyou're gonna have sex with me in
the booking we need to do like aproper booking and if you want
to just snuggle on the couch andhave no sex then we do that. So

(34:37):
I'm really strict on on that. Soyeah.

Yeah, look and I don't I don't blame you for
that. I I know that people dotry to take advantage if you
give an inch and all that, youknow.

Yeah,

I'm very clear with people that the first half
of the booking if they book thatwill be social time. I keep my
clothes on during the socialtime. So there's, you know,
limited amounts of access thatthey have anyway.

Jenna Love (35:00):
That's why I can't - I can't keep my clothes on.

Well, this is the problem

Jenna Love (35:04):
This is why I can't do bookings like that

Yeah I can't control myself. Yeah. I don't
know if I'm as worried aboutthem.

But I will reveal a very large secret for
you if you like,

Jenna Love (35:12):
Ooh

Yeah.

For three years, I think I've had my
Netflix and chill package inplay. And I have watched Netflix
twice. Yeah. Twice. In all ofthat time. People just want to
sit and chat. And they'relooking for a booking structure
where there's some time beforethe business end of things, to
have some, you know, nicebanter. And, look, I have a

(35:33):
sense of humour. I'm good atmaking people laugh and feel
comfortable. And I think itreally helps them.

Jenna Love (35:38):
Yeah, so it's an indoor social date.

Exactly. And I have the Netflix and chill. And
I also do a shorter version,which is just drinks and
dessert, which we can do in abar or we can do in the room
doesn't matter to me. And itreally seems to help people feel
at ease, especially newbies, orpeople coming out of
relationships, because comingout of a relationship to have
sex with new people is reallyoverwhelming. And really
overwhelming. I mean, even evencuddling someone they feel the

(36:01):
wrong size and shape and stuff.
It takes ages to get used to.
And I'm very happy to providesome nice space for that.

Jenna Love (36:09):
Our next patron question, they said, If you
happen to ask this, it'll beinteresting to see if she gives
the correct answer, so nopressure, but who is your
favourite member of MontyPython?

Oh the correct answer? I see. Someone my dad's
age has asked the question.

Jenna Love (36:30):
I don't think they are actually!

No, no

Excuse me.

That is funny.

John Cleese is my favourite, but that's not the
correct answer and I'm aware ofthat.

Why is that not correct?

Jenna Love (36:45):
I don't know what any of this means.
So John Cleese is an arsehole ofa person. But he is an amazing
comedian and performer and has alot of redemptive qualities in
the way he views the world andthings. I think Michael Palin
and is supposed to be thecorrect answer, because he's
supposed to be the most talentedone who writes most of the good
songs and stuff.
Well, I don't know who any ofthose people are. I cannot stand

(37:09):
Monty Python. I'm sorry.

That's okay.

Jenna Love (37:11):
I've just lost a bunch of clients, haven't I?

No they'll forgive you, though. As long as
you know, there's always TheGoons

The what?

Jenna Love (37:19):
Nope

The Goon Show.
I'm just throwing a bit ofmarketing in, don't worry. The
Goon Show was before MontyPython and inspired Monty
Python.

Jenna Love (37:31):
So I would probably also hate that too.

Most likely, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of like
back Dudley Moore kind of time,like way back?

Oh yeah. What is the best restaurant in
Melbourne?

I have no answer for this question.

What's your favourite?

There's a couple of really great
restaurants in Melbourne.
Obviously, we're renowned forour amazing dining. I love one
that a client introduced me tocalled Sezar, which is an
Armenian restaurant. It's sobeautiful. It's just you can
dine banquet style, or you cando the a la carte thing. But the
banquet style is the way to go.
Because then you can try alittle bit of everything. And
it's this really strange blend,I'd never tried Armenian food

(38:10):
before.

Jenna Love (38:11):
Yeah I don't think I have

N o, it's a great blend of like European,
Southern European and MiddleEastern food. And it's just
like, it's stunning. So you canhave zucchini flowers stuffed
with cheese and also havehummus.

Jenna Love (38:25):
It sounds fantastic.

Yeah, it's really good. Or, you know, rice
with currants and things in it,but also roasted lamb shoulder,
or it's a strange combination,and it's really yum. And the
This is amazing. This is likeCharlie's food tour of
best, best best best steak inMelbourne is at Pascale, which
is that part of the QT hotel.
Their restaurant is amazing.
Service is amazing. And then forlike casual sort of dining, I

(38:50):
really love The Waiters Club, orthe Waiters Restaurant, I think
it's called sorry, which justdoes really simple pasta and
risotto. And if you order aglass of wine, it comes in a
kitchen glass, you know, likethe old Vegemite glasses. And
they're open till like three inthe morning. So they're a great
place to go for a late nightsnack.

(39:14):
Melbourne.
Oh I can keep going, it's justcrazy. I am so lucky to get to
try so many restaurants becausethat's the mother of young
children, there was a time whereI thought I would never eat out
again ever. So it's been such alovely treat to be able to go
and try all these places.

Jenna Love (39:32):
Hopefully some of them are able to make it through
the current situation and comeout the other end.

Look, I've lost my local Thai takeaway, which is
the only one that didn't likecoriander and they've gone now I
have to eat coriander

Jenna Love (39:49):
That's not fair.
Okay, I think I could be wrongbecause I've copied this across
from our Patreon but I thinkthat the next question is
actually being asked by somebodywho is a parent themselves as
well, and we have sort oftouched on it, but the question
is, one of the ways to removethe stigma of sex work and
indeed of sex positivity as awhole, is to raise children to
view the full spectrum ofsexuality as healthy and sex

(40:13):
work as a legitimate career. Andyet we know that at the moment,
that is not exactly theprevailing view of society. So
how do you balance the need tode stigmatise sex work with the
importance of protecting yourchildren from avoidable social
backlash?

I mentioned earlier that my mum was a sex
worker. And so I was brought upin an environment where all
things to do with sex wereviewed as able to be spoken
about openly. And you know,there wasn't a lot of ick factor
except for the parents havingsex of course. And you know
being gay was normal, beingbisexual was normal, being of a

(40:52):
different gender, or changinggender was just fine. None of
those things were unusual in mylife. And so I've brought my
children up the same way. Wellbefore I became Charlie, we had
discussions in our house aboutsexuality, and transgender
stuff, and all that sort ofthing, because it comes up, it
comes up in the news, it comesup in family members making

(41:14):
announcements. We do have onecousin who is transgender, and
my children had questions aboutthat when they were little, you
know, and I just answered themhonestly, that's the best I can
do. And then as I mentionedearlier, so there was a
conversation that came up abouta stripper, and I was really
careful to sort of make it clearthat, you know, whatever she did
with her body, she was makingmoney and doing a good job. And

(41:36):
it was her choice. And we have,we have conversations about
consent all the time, about, youknow, not touching your brother,
keep your hands off yourbrother, even that sort of level
for small children is reallyimportant, knowing that they get
to control who touches them andwhen, not forcing hugs on

(41:58):
people, all that sort of stuff.
So it kind of runs the gamut.
It's not just about stigma. It'sabout having a healthy attitude
towards sex and consent acrossthe board, and also having a
really good handle on the factthat what--the choices that
other people make are none ofyour business, they're just not.

Gosh, I wish you were my mother.

Unless you're cheering someone on, just keep
your mouth shut. You don't haveto agree. Like it's not actually
a prerequisite.

Jenna Love (42:25):
Yeah, bang on. For Shit People Say this week, it's
a little bit tricky to come upwith content, because Charlie is
just such a bloody lovelyperson. And hopefully, people
are generally quite nice to her.
They better bloody be or I'llget onto them. But, but she
does, she says she's got a storyfor us. So let's hear it.

So well back when Charlie was just starting
out, it was my very first tourin Melbourne. I would like to
say a lovely gentleman showedup, but he was not lovely. A
gentleman showed up with his owncrystal glassware so that we
could drink some champagnetogether because my glassware
was bound to be inferior. Andthen he spent most of the hour

(43:07):
and a half, I think it was thathe booked for, talking to me
about Hitler, and all of thewonderful things Hitler had done
for the world, includingpointing out you know, which
races were not as good asothers, and all of that sort of
stuff. And then we moved fromHitler to Trump and how
wonderful Trump was and how hewould bring Hitler's vision to
fruition. And wasn't thatamazing. And I mean, I'm fairly

(43:30):
left wing, I'm sure people havenoticed. And I had to find a way
to get through that bookingwithout like, trying to kill
him.

Jenna Love (43:39):
So we're not just talking somebody who says,
"look, Hitler had some redeemingqualities" or--

No, no, no!

Jenna Love (43:46):
It was full in support.
It was full "I've read all ofMein Kampf, and I think he's
amazing. And I know all of hislife story and I have to tell
you about every single thingHitler has ever done or said".
And it was soul destroying.

So how did you manage that? Were you like,
"Okay..."

I pivoted to the Trump conversation and blew
me out of the water

Jenna Love (44:08):
How was that any better?

That sounds pretty bad as well! Just to make sure
the time--keep checking theclock like are we nearly there?

What I actually had to do, which was my only
choice, was to jump on and shuthim up.

Jenna Love (44:21):
But how gross is that?

Well, yeah, it was hard to do. But I did it.
You know, so like, yes, "comehere, give me a kiss. You can't
talk when my tongues in yourmouth", thank you.

You know, when people ask us about you know,
are your clients unattractive orwhatever, and it's like, dude,
there's nothing physical that'sgonna put me off but if you
start telling me you loveHitler, that's gonna like--I'm
not--doesn't make me horny.

Jenna Love (44:44):
That'll do it.

It is difficult if you are a fan of genocide to
get excited, about sleeping withyou, yes.

Definitely not your kink, hey?

No, I don't want people to think that I take
those sort of issues lightly, Idon't, which is why it upset me
so much and why I had to find away through and just the--I just
had to get to the other side ofthis book in and do it in a way
that kept me safe. Becausesometimes when you call people
on their beliefs, they can getquite irrational and things can
change very quickly, and alsomade the time go as fast as

(45:17):
possible. So I worked reallyhard so that the time would just
be gone.

Jenna Love (45:23):
It fascinates me how comfortable people are sharing
opinions that are quite extremeor inflammatory to sex workers -
I don't know if other people hadthis experience, but I think
that, obviously, we're very goodat creating safe spaces. And so
people can feel comfortable,which is wonderful. But I have
to wonder if there's thiselement of thinking that we

(45:45):
don't maybe have our own views,or, you know, our reactions to
those sorts of views don'tmatter or something like that.

I think that's it, Jenna, and it can be quite
upsetting because I think whatit is, is that if someone's
willing to reveal an opinion,they know to be abhorent, they
don't really care what the otherperson thinks. So it's actually
a problem in terms of myscreening and security, for
those sort of things to happen,because it means that person's
not holding me in particularlyhigh regard. And I would

(46:13):
definitely never see anyoneagain after I'd had that
experience. And that's not tosay that if we have a political
disagreement, I'm not going tosee you that's very different
from you want to wipe out awhole section of the world?

Jenna Love (46:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's levels here.

I see a lot of people who are very right wing,
and that's not a problem. I amactually able to not talk about
politics, believe it or not, ifthey tell me extreme things, and
it does happen quite a lot,particularly in Melbourne,
because we've had all thelockdown. So we've got this
really big growth in Qanon stuffhappening. And I'm sure it will
get happening in Sydney too andeverywhere else. But it is a

(46:50):
reaction to the distress thatpeople are going through. So I
try to see through that to whatthe where the suffering is
coming from. And if I can't seethat element, then it's sort of
I'm left with "Well, you're justa crunt."

Jenna Love (47:04):
Yeah, well, I had an overnight booking which
obviously, we're differentpeople, we often we have a lot
of clients who are verydifferent to us. And the first
portion of it, the nightportion, was absolutely fine.
And then the next morning, wehad a discussion where he
revealed some stuff that I foundto be incredibly racist. And

(47:24):
then after we'd had thatconversation, which is quite
tense, because I'm not good atbiting my tongue as anyone who's
listened knows. And you know, Iwas still I was polite, but it
was tense.

Yeah.

Jenna Love (47:34):
And then he was like, "anyway, like, one last go
before we finish?" And I feltsick. I just I think that that's
something that a lot of peopledon't realise is that, yeah, as
Holly said, it's not aboutwhether we find someone
attractive, or if they're tootoo big or too small or too,
whatever. But that was a realsituation where I felt like a

(47:56):
whore.

Yeah

Jenna Love (47:57):
I had these moments.
I was like, I don't want to behaving sex with this person now.
And I did it because it wascoming to the end of the booking
and I wanted it to be over. Butit was not a nice feeling. And I
think that's those nuances areperhaps lost by people who
haven't been in those situationsthat we have like that.

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that, you
know, it's, um, it's difficult.
There's no physical thing thatwould make me feel repulsed or
turned off a client, I seepeople of all physical abilities
and intellectual abilities andeverything. So that's not a
problem for me. And as I saidbefore, if you if you think
differently to me on thepolitical spectrum, that's also
okay. I have a lot of respectfor people who are proper, you

(48:34):
know, small l liberals and thatsort of stuff, because there's a
rationality to what they putforward and consistency to their
beliefs. But if you'rewackadoodle, that makes life
really hard.

Jenna Love (48:49):
Yes it does! Thank you so much for being here with
us today, Charlie. It's beenawesome to get to know a little
bit more about you. Thanks forsharing your story.

Bye. Thanks Charlie!

See you guys.
Thanks again.

Jenna Love (49:01):
See ya!

Bye.

Jenna Love (49:06):
It's time for us to give a big shout out to all of
our patrons. We are so gratefulfor your support, both financial
and just emotional and it's justvery nice. So this week, we have
some new Giving Somebodies theyare Helsing, Natalia Velour, and
my mate Annie. We have newGenerous Somebodies, Colin,

(49:29):
Jamie and Indy. And our new VeryGenerous somebodies are Lola
Hunt from Assembly Four, Justin,and Diane.

Our Even More Generous Somebodies are Timmy,
Andrew, Adam Smith, Leo,Lachlan, Cass, Sub London and
Miss Billy. Our ExtremelyGenerous Somebodies are Aaron,
Samuel, Andrew, Pete, andTheodore Betts the First
Esquire.

Jenna Love (49:58):
Thanks so much for listening. We'll catch you next
week. Please look out for us onTwitter, Instagram, Facebook,
and Patreon. Our name everywhereis somebodyyoupod as in podcast.
Our Patreon starts at just $3 amonth, and you can get all of
our episodes ad-free and a dayearly, plus bonus episodes,

(50:18):
behind the scenes action,bloopers and more. Thank you for
taking the time to listen to thevoices of sex workers. And
remember, Somebody You Lovemight just be a sex worker.
COVID-19 has had a significantimpact on the sex industry. And
snap lockdowns and travelrestrictions mean that there are

(50:40):
times when sex workers requireemergency financial relief in
order for them and theirdependents to stay safe, housed
and fed.

Sex workers don't get sick or holiday pay and many
have no savings to fall back on.
The stigma and discriminationthat we face means that some
have no proof of earnings toaccess government support. And
of course migrant workers areoften forgotten

Jenna Love (51:01):
Scarlet Alliance and their state and territory member
organisations joined together tocreate an ongoing fund that is
hosted on the website chuffed(that's CHUFFED)

Donations are tax deductible. 100% of funds raised
go directly to sex workers inneed. And most weeks the amount
of people apply outweigh theamount of funds raised and sadly
people have to be turned away.
The link to this fund is in ourshow notes.

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11. Somebody You Love is a parent (Charlie Swinton)

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