14. Somebody You Love has relationships

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jenna Love (00:01):
Do you miss the free and affordable ads and social
networks without all of theanti-sex rhetoric?

Holly Harte (00:06):
Assembly Four is a team of sex workers and
technologists from Melbourne,Australia, aiming to bring back
free and fair advertising andsocial spaces to the sex working
community

Jenna Love (00:15):
Stepping away from the clunky design of traditional
platforms, their two productstryst.link and switter.at are
refreshing and well neededchanges in both presentation and
mission.

And both are free to join and open to all.

Jenna Love (00:29):
You can find both of our profiles on trust, and I
love how it is so clearlydesigned by sex workers.

Yep. And I love how straightforward and easy it is
to use and how much they clearlysupport the sex working
community.

Jenna Love (00:41):
And also how responsive they are when it
comes to feedback and customerservice.

Check out their website assemblyfour.com (four
the word, not the number) formore info.

Jenna Love (00:55):
Welcome to Somebody You Love, or the sale of two
titties. I'm Jenna Love.

And I'm Holly Harte.

Jenna Love (01:05):
And we're experts in disappointing our parents,
breaching community guidelines,and banging the people who vote
against our rights. Before weget into the show today, we just
would like to take a second toacknowledge the traditional
custodians of the land fromwhich we are recording, I am on
the land of the Darug andGundungurra peoples and Holly is

(01:25):
on the land of the Ngunawalpeople.

We'd also like to acknowledge our privilege within
the industry. As cis whiteworkers, we don't face the
challenges as more marginalisedworkers do. We can't speak on
behalf of more marginalisedworkers than ourselves. And so
these experiences and thoughtsare just our own.

Jenna Love (01:42):
It won't come as a surprise to you that as a
podcast about sex work, we willbe dealing with adult themes,
and this podcast is really notdesigned for non adults to
listen to. So if you are a nonadult, don't listen. Thanks.

We also wanted to mention we've had a few clients
of ours contact us with a littlebit of concern that they may be
crossing boundaries or breakingsome of the rules or doing some
of the things that we'vediscussed that we don't
particularly like. We want tomake it clear that if you're the
kind of person who is worrying,you're probably not the kind of
person that we're talking about.

Jenna Love (02:19):
we knew that this would always be a potential
issue with us speaking publiclyabout this stuff. But as, yeah,
as Holly said, like, I have areally long etiquette page on my
website. And there's a lot ofinformation there. And I can

(02:39):
guarantee you that the clientsthat read all of it are the
clients that probably didn'teven really need to in the first
place anyway, the clients that Ihave who reference it, my best
clients, I'm always like, "yeah,of course, you've read it". And
then it's the people who wouldnever think to read that in the
first place, or the people whowouldn't ever listen to our
podcast, that are usually theones that we have problems with.

(03:00):
So the very fact that you'relistening to this podcast, that
you're listening to the voicesof sex workers, you're already,
you know, A++ in our books.

So if you're one of our clients, and particularly if
you're one of our regularclients, we keep seeing you
because you're a good client, sodon't take too much to heart.
Take this for what it is - justsome criticisms and thoughts, a
bit of laugh and a bit ofbanter. For the most part,
you're probably doing fantastic.

Jenna Love (03:28):
So today we are talking about sex workers having
relationships. And this issomething that I'm super
passionate about. And I think itcan get dismissed quite easily
in the activism space, becauseit's sort of not, I think it
can--maybe people might see itas a bit frivolous. Like we're
just talking about our lovelives. But I think it's actually
incredibly crucial to the sexworker rights movement. And for

(03:53):
me, it was a really core part ofmy activism. So I'm going to
tell a little bit of a storyabout how I sort of came to be
an activist, I guess, and how Inow consider myself to be one. I
used to do a whole bunch ofvideos on Twitter that were
like, Question and Answervideos. So people just ask
questions, and I would answerthem in the form of a video,
just little two, three minutevideos. And then one day, I was

(04:17):
talking to Mr. Love, and we werethinking maybe it would be cool
if he came on and did some withme. And we actually asked people
for questions that wasspecifically for the two of us
or for him. Now this was quite abig deal for us because Mr. Love
is definitely the shyer of thetwo of us. He is not the kind of
person to just start a podcastand start talking to people all

(04:39):
the time. And he often like--alot of the time people ask him
stuff about sex work, and he'sjust like, "I don't know, like,
that's just what my wife does,like what's"--he doesn't really
see it as a big deal. And so Ispoke to a couple of my friends
at the time being like, "Oh, Mr.
Love is kind of keen to come onand do a couple of those videos
with me" and everyone I spoke towarned me against doing it and

(05:00):
said, "Oh, you know, youmight--or you better be careful.
It might, you know, scareclients away" or whatever. And I
was like, "Oh, well, I've alwaysbeen open about having a
husband, like everyone knows heexists. I talk about him in all
my bookings". I feel like myclients are sick of hearing
about him, because I'm alwaysraving on about how great he is.
And they were like, "Yeah, butit's very, very different to

(05:21):
know that he exists as aconcept. And to actually, like,
see him", even though he wasn'tshowing his face in the videos.
And I was like me, "Okay, fairpoint". But I also was like, I
don't care. Because if I loseclients, then I lose clients.
And as we can tell by thispodcast, it's like, I'm just
really good at turning peopleoff booking me, that's like my
special power. So I just wasn'treally bothered. And I went

(05:43):
ahead with it. And the responsewas exactly the opposite. And
actually, I had quite a few newclients come to me who sort of
said, "I saw those videos". Andthey were really interested in
the way our relationship works.
And it really humanised me andmade them want to come and meet
me. And my regular clients werelike "it was so great to
actually hear him speak and sayall the things that you've been

(06:04):
saying about him". So it ends upbeing really great. And I'm
really proud that we did that.
And soon after that, I wascontacted by somebody from SWOP
New South Wales about a magazinethat they produce, which is just
for sex workers only. So a lotof people listening won't have
access to it. And they asked ifI'd be interested in being
interviewed. And this was thefirst time somebody had, like,

(06:26):
wanted to interview me. And Iwas like, Oh, my God, I've,
"yes, I'd love to beinterviewed". And then they said
that they wanted me to be on thecover. And I was like, "Are you
telling me I'm a cover girl?
Amazing". So I'm basically amodel now. And so I went into
their offices, and we had aninterview. And quite early on in

(06:47):
the interview, the interviewersaid to me--talking about my
activism. And I was like, "Oh,no, no, no, I'm not an activist.
Like I'm, I'm just a whore", youknow. And she said to me, "ah, I
would describe what you do, youknow, just sharing those videos
with your husband, that'sactivism". And I had always
thought, like, I always kind ofwanted to be an activist, but I

(07:09):
didn't think, you know, I justdidn't think I was cool enough.
I didn't think I was braveenough. I didn't think I had the
knowledge behind me. And when Ilooked at the activists that I
looked up to in our community,and in any community, I was just
like, "Oh, my God, that's soawesome". Like, I really kind of
bowed down to them. But anyway,she said, "Yeah, I consider you
an activist". And that reallyignited a thing in me and I

(07:30):
went, "Oh, well, maybe, maybe Ican be". So yeah, that in a way
that really cemented my passionfor sex work activism, and it
all sort of was born out of mejust having a chat with my
partner. It's kind of as simpleas that. And that's, that's a
really powerful element of usgetting our voices out there.

That is a really interesting story that I did not
know about your growth in theindustry, Jenna. But yeah, I
definitely agree that it isvital that we discuss these
sorts of things. I think showingthe public that we're
multifaceted people that we havereal life experiences, real
world experiences, we're notjust caricatures of of humans,

(08:11):
we actually are human, we haveemotions, we have relationships,
we have families, all this sortof stuff is really important to
creating a 3d image of us in thepublic's mind. It really helps
to remove a bit of stigma, butalso just to humanise us. And so
when people talk about sexworkers, people think of human
beings, not shady alleys withthe stereotypical stuff that the

(08:33):
media likes to portray. Ofcourse, that can be some of the
industry. But that doesn'trepresent all of us. And that's
not all of who any of us are.

Jenna Love (08:41):
Yeah, and I think when you don't see us as humans,
that can lead down the path ofthinking that we are somewhat
disposable. And I think a lot ofus, any of us who have listened
to any true crime, or even likeshows like Law & Order and all
that sort of thing. You know,it's not uncommon to hear about,
you know, things like serialkillers, targeting sex workers

(09:02):
and that sort of thing. And Iknow that when we talk about our
job to civilians, sometimes theygo, "Oh, no, but aren't you
worried about, you know, theserial killers?" And my view of
that is that you know, our workis not inherently dangerous.
Being in a room with anotherperson is not inherently
dangerous. There are plenty ofprofessions that do that. The

(09:23):
dangerous element is when thatperson thinks that we don't have
anyone who loves us. That'swhere sex workers can be
susceptible to violence, and tomarginalisation, is when people
think that we don't have supportnetworks and that we that we
don't have anyone who's going tomiss us when we're gone. And
that couldn't be more wrong, ofcourse. So knowing we were doing
this episode this week, I wantedto get a little bit of

(09:45):
completely unscientificinformation from our community.
So we posted polls on Instagramand Twitter. The Twitter one is
a bit--because we said "pleaseonly be sex workers", but
it's--the results are anonymous,so whether you know--got to take
it somewhat with a grain ofsalt, because some random people
may have contributed who weren'tsex workers, the Instagram one,

(10:05):
you can actually see everyonewho did contribute. And there
were two people who I was like,"Who are you? I don't think
you're a sex worker". So I tookthem out of the numbers. And we
also posted in a sex worker onlyspace. So we know that everyone
contributing there is a sexworker. And it's like, there's
no clients around looking atwhat we say. So I think there's
arguably more validity to begiven to those results. But

(10:27):
overall, we had about 450 peoplerespond to our little study. As
I said, it's completely nonscientific. But hopefully it
gives us a bit of an idea. Andwe were asking about whether
people were in relationships ornot, basically. So about 50%
across all three mediums, about50% of sex workers said that
they were in a relationship. Soof those 75% of them described

(10:52):
that relationship as beingserious and monogamous. So I
think that's quite interesting,because a lot of people assume
that if a sex worker is in arelationship, that it will be a
non-monogamous one. And we'lltalk about that a bit later. But
yeah, three quarters of peopleresponded saying no, they are in
monogamous relationships. Ofthose who were single, it was

(11:13):
about 50/50, whether they werehappy to be single, and they
wanted to stay single, versusthose who were described
themselves as dating or lookingfor a relationship, whatever
kind of relationship that mightbe. And in our sex worker only
space, there was a bit ofdiscussion about it. And we've
got permission from a couple ofpeople to share their stories,

(11:33):
because I just think it'simportant to remember that we
all have different situations,and there's so many different
ways of doing relationships outthere. And that's reflected in
the sex working community aswell.

One of our favourite workers, Amanda
Valentina, had to say, "I ampermanently single and have no
interest in dating again, letalone in the near future. I feel
I'm the best possible version ofmyself when I'm flying solo, and
have sadly learned throughexperience that boundary
management is challenging for mewhen emotions are involved.
Working allows me to managethose boundaries effectively, as

(12:05):
well as proactively masteringthe art of assertiveness. The
only romantic relationship Ihave interest in maintaining is
the one with myself. I am, as Iput it time and time again,
happily ever single."

Jenna Love (12:18):
Something that came up that was quite interesting
that I had never consideredbefore was there are a few
workers who shared theirexperiences of being in what
they would describe as serious,non monogamous relationships.
But that the government dictatesthat their relationship is
defined by the exclusion of allothers, and that their visas are

(12:38):
dependent on that. So a coupleof anonymous stories: "it wasn't
our intention to settle down andnest together", which is
often--in non-monogamouscircles, nesting is referred to
the person that you live with.
So Mr. Love is my nestingpartner. It wasn't our intention
to do that. "But a partnershipvisa was our last resort. And it
forced us to jump onto therelationship escalator together.

(12:59):
Fortunately, were very happytogether. But fuck, it's been an
expensive, invasive, fucked upprocess". And they said a lot of
that had been shaped by thepandemic. And somebody else
said, "I am married. And we areexclusive. And we have to stay
that way, probably forever, Iwill never get an Australian
citizenship. So I don't thinkthat there is any option for me

(13:20):
to ever be poly or in an openrelationship. Again, I'm glad
that my partner and I are goingstrong. And I don't currently
have the desire to date anyoneelse. But it sucks that this
will never be a choice that Ican make". So yeah, there's some
kind of unique situations thataffect some sex workers. And we
do have plans to have someworkers on in the future who
will talk about theirrelationships. In just two weeks

(13:41):
time, I think we will be havingsomebody very special, who will
be coming on to the show withtheir monogamous partner and
they both will be speaking tous, which will be very cool. But
for today, Holly and I just kindof going to chat about our own
experiences. So a comment that Icome across all the time,
particularly on Reddit, Redditis is real keen on this one is
the "ew but no guy is going todate a whore". "What are you

(14:06):
going to do when you've got tosettle down?" And "how are you
going to find somebody?" and youknow, "no man wants to be
married to someone who's awhore", blah, blah, blah, all
that sort of stuff. See it allthe time.

I mean, it's a whore gonna date you? The idea
that was somehow unlovable dueto our jobs, which are
essentially selling theexperience of love, is
incredibly off base. It's such amisogynistic view to think that
multiple sexual partnersdecreases anyone's value in any
way. And that this somehow makespeople inherently undesirable.

(14:38):
Obviously, stigma and people'singrained assumptions and
insecurities make dating as asex worker much more complex,
and we totally understand thatit's a different thing to
navigate then traditionaldating, but it doesn't mean that
we're desperate or that we'reworth any less than any other
human.

Jenna Love (14:54):
Yeah, this is what I don't get - like we're actually
professionals at bedroom fun.
And having like, good timetogether. Like aren't we
actually incredibly fuckingdateable? Like, we're really
good at that stuff. So what!?
Like, it just doesn't doesn'treally make sense to me.

At some point for me, my mother asked me, I think
it was when I was a stripper, is"do you think this is gonna
affect your dating life? Like,what if you want to settle
down?" Things like that. And foryears, I did feel that way. I
thought "oh is this going to beharder for me to meet the right
person?". And eventually, I'vecome to the realisation that the
right person is going to love mefor whoever I am and the

(15:36):
decisions that I make in mylife. And I don't want to cut
myself off from being who I wantto be. Just in case I meet
someone who loves me for areduced version of myself.

Jenna Love (15:46):
Abso-fucking-lutely.
And this is what gets me is thatI think people saying this, they
don't realise how high the baractually is. The conversation is
always framed around, "willsomebody accept what you do for
work, or what you have done forwork in the past?" And like, I
am not out here looking forsomebody who accepts what I do,
or who allows me to be a sexworker or somebody who's okay

(16:07):
with it. Fuck that. I'm out herelooking for somebody who raises
me the fuck up, who thinks thatI'm a bloody legend, who loves
that I do a job that I'mpassionate about and that brings
me joy. And that, like, I don'tthink they have any idea. Like,
I'm mainly going to use myhusband as an example here. He
isn't just okay with what I do.

(16:30):
He loves and respects the shitout of me and thinks that I'm an
amazing person and builds me upjust like a partner should. As
an example, you know, I'm alwaysposting videos online. And I do
different little interviews andthings like that. Actually, I
did an interview with amainstream media channel
recently. And it was likedistance recorded. So I recorded

(16:55):
on my end, and then sent them myrecording. So it was completely
unedited. It was just me talkingfor an hour, basically. And then
they're going to cut it up. Andlater in the day, I walked past
my husband's office, and I heardmy voice coming out. And I was
like, "What are you doing?" Andhe was listening to my recording
of that. And he sat there andlistened to that whole thing.
And he always does, he--I alwaysoverhear him listening to little

(17:17):
videos, I've put up online andstuff. And I always get
embarrassed. I'm always like,"Oh, god, what did I say? Fuck".
You know, I'm happy to put theshit out to everyone on the
internet. But when my nearestand dearest see it, I'm like,
"Oh, no, what have I said?", andevery time he's like, "I'm proud
of you. I love you. I love thatpeople--" The other day he said
to me, "I love that people cometo you and ask for your opinion

(17:38):
on things. Because you're, youknow, for better or worse an
expert in a field becauseyou're, you're somebody
that--you've got things to sayand people are listening to what
you say". And I just think thatthis idea of "No man's gonna put
up with someone who's been awhore". I'm like, "oh, babe, you
do not realise how fuckinglegendary the partners of sex

(17:58):
workers are". They're notputting up with us. They are
right there with us. I mean, I'msure there's some terrible ones
out there. But I think that theones that stick around, and a
lot of the ones that I know, arebloody legendary.

It's a really archaic view that women have to
somehow be less than who theyare just so that they can get
the perfect partner. And that'sso ingrained, and particularly
with generations gone by, thatyou should be whatever your
partner wants you to be. And Ithink we're coming into an age
now, where a lot of people arefinding that they can be who

(18:33):
they want to be, and meet apartner that accepts them, and
not just accepts them, butadores that about them. And
that's so empowering. And as yousaid, Jenna, so many of the
partners of sex workers that Iknow are incredibly supportive,
and they love their partnersbecause of who they are, not
because of who they are not.

Jenna Love (18:49):
Yeah, also, people may not want a partner, or they
might want multiple partners.
And let's not forget that thisconversation is always "oh, no
man's going to want to date awhore". Half the whores I know
are lesbians. So what men wanthas nothing to do with it. So I
think another question thatcomes up for a lot of sex
workers is choosing whether ornot to be open to their clients

(19:10):
and be open in their advertisingand all social media about
whether they have a partner ornot. And you know, look for a
lot of workers, they really wantto keep their their private and
their professional livesseparate. You know, if somebody
asks them, whether they have apartner, they say, "That's none
of your business". Andabsolutely fair enough. It

(19:30):
doesn't have to be anyone else'sbusiness. But in my case, I had
just never thought not to beopen about being married because
I, I don't know, it was justlike doing any job. I was like,
"Well, I have a husband,that's--there's a ring on my
finger and we're married". Sothat--I don't know, I just never
thought that it would besomething that I should hide.
And early on there was a lot ofcomments around forums and just

(19:52):
even from clients that would sayit to me face to face, there was
a lot of assumptions that myhusband must have been a cuckold
- somebody who gets off on theidea of their partner being with
other people, and often in likea humiliation way, and all that
it was a fetish and that he waswith me because it like turned
him on to be with with a sexworker or something like that.

(20:14):
And people found it reallystrange when I was like, "No,
he's, he's just my partner,like, I don't--we're just
married, just like your doctormight have a husband, I have a
husband like, I don't... there'snothing more to it". And so I
think this was like, you know,good 10 years ago, almost 10
years ago, people sort of hadthis idea that if a sex worker

(20:35):
did have a partner, that therewas a reason for it, rather than
just being a human being who hasrelationships. These days, I
don't get that nearly as much,probably partly because I'm a
bit more well known, I guess,and people know about Mr. Love.
But also, because of the work ofa lot of other sex workers who
have been open about havingpartners, I think we've all

(20:56):
really helped kind of pave theway of being a bit more accepted
that that is a very normalthing. It's just as normal as
somebody not having a partner aswell, you certainly don't have
to, of course, but it's not anymore unusual than anyone in any
job having a partner. It's not asurprise when you hire a tradie
to come to your house if theyhave a partner. And it's not a

(21:16):
surprise if a sex worker has apartner either. What do you
think about this, this thing ofdisclosing whether you're
attached or not?

Well, I'm unable to comment from personal
experience, as I've neverformally had a partner during
sex work, I've sort of had fuckbuddies and things like that,
but not an actual partner. If Idid have a partner, I would be
strongly inclined to disclosejust because I'm just too
frickin honest. And lying for meis not something I'm comfortable

(21:46):
with. I think my clients knowme, really raw and honestly, and
that's just who I am. So I wouldhave no issues with being really
honest about it. And I thinkyeah, it's it's a nice thing to
share. "Hey, I'm in love andloved", that would be fun.

Jenna Love (22:00):
Yeah, I think it's very understandable for sex
workers who do want to separatethat for a whole number of
reasons, one of which may wellbe protecting their real life
identity and that of theirfamilies. But I do think it
can't be underestimated howexhausting that would be.
Because that is akin to living adouble life, essentially,

(22:21):
especially if they're not out totheir loved ones, or all of
their loved ones, about being asex worker, then they're hiding
from them that they're being asex worker, and they're hiding
them from their clients. Sothey're really having to carry
all these lies around. And ifthey want to do that, then
that's great. And if they feelthat they need to do that, then
they absolutely should. But Ithink that we do need to

(22:41):
understand what a burden that isto carry around all the time.
Definitely. So what abouttelling a new lover? What is
your experience with that?
Look, I've been quite lucky. AndI've been very lucky in
relationships in general. So Ido have to preface everything
with that. Obviously, my husbandand I were already together when

(23:01):
I started in the industry. Sothat was something that we
talked about together, I didn'tneed to like break it to him as
such. But in the--I spent abouttwo years away from the
industry, which I talked aboutin our little origin story,
Somebody You Love became a sexworker. And during that time, I
started dating, one of my nowpartners. And I had never
mentioned having worked in thesex industry to him. Mainly--not

(23:24):
because I was particularlyashamed of it. Perhaps there was
some internalised whorephobiathere. But I think it was mainly
because I just didn't, it wasjust a thing that I did in the
past, and it sort of hadn't comeup. And it wasn't something that
I felt had anything to do withme at that point in my life. But
after we'd been dating for, Iwant to say six months or so, I

(23:46):
had decided to go back into thesex industry. And I was like,
"Ah, okay, I have to tell himnow". So we arranged to meet up
one day, it was actually justafter I'd finished a shift at a
brothel. Because we don't livevery close to each other, but
the brothel was near where helives. So we decided to meet up.
And we just went and hung out ina park. He has dogs, so they're

(24:07):
always happy for outside time.
We went and met up in a park andI had prepared, you know, this
whole speech. And I wasincredibly nervous. Even though
I thought he was really cool andwe had a great thing going, I
was really worried that he wouldjust turn around and say, "Okay,
well, that's it for us then"like, this is not, you know, I
don't know, all those thingsthat you worry about. And I kind

(24:27):
of--I worked my way up and Ispilled the beans and I told
him, you know, all this bignews. And he was like, "Oh,
okay". And I was like, "Oh, isthat? Is that okay?" And he was
like, "Oh, yeah, I mean, are youhappy? Is this--are you? Are you

(24:47):
enjoying your work? Do you likeit?" You know, and I was like,
"yeah, I'm really glad to beback". And he was like, "Okay,
cool". And that was kind of thatlater on in that same
conversation. He was like, "Hey,I don't know if this is the
wrong thing to say but I feellike you'd be really good at
that". And I was like, "Yeah, Ithink I am.. I think I am quite

(25:09):
good at it, actually, thankyou". And that was that. We
didn't speak too much about itfor a little while. He's a very
quiet guy, somebody who reallylikes to process these thoughts
on his own, and then he'll bringthem to the table, which is not
like me, I just process themoutside of my person. But later
on, almost a year later, I thinkwe had talked about sex work,

(25:33):
and he'd asked about it, we'dhad lots of conversations about
it, and he follows my socialmedia and is incredibly
supportive as well. At a laterdate, he told me that at first,
it did make him feel quite selfconscious. And he was worried
that he was inferior. And hesort of had these ideas that I
was having all these crazy,wonderful experiences. And he
was like, "Oh, god, what is shedoing with me?" You know? And

(25:56):
then he said, then he realised,"well, she's doing it with me
without payment. So obviously,that means that she really wants
to be with me". And I was like,"Yeah, I mean, if anything,
that's, that's a hugeendorsement. Isn't that
like--that must make you feellike a fucking rock star,
because I want to hang out withyou with nothing else. Like, the

(26:17):
only thing I'm getting out of itis you. And I love that. That's
a really wonderful thing". So hewent through that thought
process on his own. But I cansee that that would be something
that could be difficult. Andeveryone else I've dated, has
either known very, very earlyon, or I've met them as a
client. So obviously, they knewwhat I do. So I know that lots
of people out there don't havegreat experiences. But I've just

(26:39):
never had an issue with tellinga partner about my work.

My experiences haven't been as healthy as
yours. I have, as I said before,haven't had a serious partner
while I've been doing sex workin the last however many years,
but in the past, I have dated,and in between bouts of sex
work, I have had partners. I hadone partner when I disclosed to

(27:06):
them, they were very paranoidduring our relationship. I mean,
he was a pretty paranoid dudeanyway. And when we split up, he
actually went to my mother'shouse and knocked on the door to
tell her that I had been a sexworker. So I wish I didn't ever
tell him. I had another partnerwho I told who then sort of used
it as a way to put me downduring the relationship as if I

(27:30):
was somehow tainted, which wasreally disappointing. And at
that time, I didn't have theconnections in the industry. And
I didn't have the self esteem, Isuppose to realise that that was
bullshit.

Jenna Love (27:41):
I think it's quite telling, like, I think it
really, really showed their truecolours, for lack of a less
cliched way of putting that.
Because I think, you know, theone that was was quite paranoid,
I think was always going to haveissues with the feeling of, of
you being with anyone else, oranything like that. Jealousy,
insecurities, and the one thatused it to put you down, I
imagine would have foundsomething to put you down. And

(28:04):
that was the tool that hegrabbed on to, in order to do
that. And it's shitty that thesepeople would use sex work to do
those things. But I think italso shows if sex work wasn't
there, they would have foundsomething else to do that with.
And I don't think sex work isnecessarily the cause of that.
But it certainly can bring itout and make it unpleasant for
you.

Definitely. The first one, Luke, he actually
used to be really paranoid. Iused to work in
telecommunications at the time,and I'd catch the two buses home
because we we lived out in NewSouth Wales at the time. And if
I was four minutes late to gethome from work, he would ask me
where I'd been like, he waslike, "Who have you been with,
where?" he was paranoid. Therewas a lot of issues going on

(28:50):
there. And the relationship didactually end in a restraining
order. So I don't think sex workwas any sort of influence on
that. I think it was justanother thing that he used to,
to target me with or to beparanoid about.

Jenna Love (29:05):
And then when the relationship was over, and he
went to your mum's place, wasthat do you think just an act to
try and hurt you?

Yes.

Jenna Love (29:13):
It was just weaponizing it?

Yeah, yes, absolutely. It was, yeah, it was
just a way to get at me at thetime, he was sleeping in his car
in my street, and doing thingslike really doing bizarre things
to try to hurt me. So not goodtimes. The other partner of
mine, who was the love of mylife, really was not a very

(29:34):
healthy person at all. And hewas, once again incredibly
insecure. And, yeah, he saw anychance to try to bring me down

Jenna Love (29:39):
And that's that's the next question. When do you
because he felt shitty inside.
So yeah, I think sex work wasn'twhat caused or wasn't a big
thing in either of thosesituations. But it definitely
was, as you said, weaponized,several times. And so I so I
wish I didn't tell those peoplebut it's not even that it's more
that I wish I didn't date thosepeople. That would be the soluti

(30:00):
n is that, you know, I have heathier relationships or healthi
r self esteem these days. So Idon't put myself in those sort
of situations. I've also beenn Tinder dates with two women,
who I never heard from againafter those dates. And I feel
like a massive part of it wasex work. They never said expli
itly, but you do pick up on peope's body language, when you t

(30:23):
ll them, you do pick up on thoe sorts of things. I didn't te
l them until we actuallyent on our first date, because I
like to see someone eye to eyso they can see me as a human b
fore they decide sex work is cnfronting for them. One of th
m was actually a polyamoous woman in a relatio
ship. She was really into etical polyamory, but she thought
sex work was not valid. So thats in my eyes, maybe slightl

(30:46):
a double standard. There'sa little bit of whoreph
bia there. But that's her choiceto make. That's fine. And it's,
ou know, not the person for meSo, yeah, to go back and answer
the question in terms of tellina new partner, I always will t
ll my new lovers and new partnetell a new person in your life?
In particular, for this episode,s, but it can be fraught.

(31:12):
a new romantic interest in yourlife? When should you tell them?

I tell them straightaway, either on the
first date, or in the firstmessages online, if that's where
we meet. I have stayed away,though, from telling them
online, as I find that it leadsto, as is standard in the sex
work community, bans from thosesorts of apps, they think we're
soliciting so they will banpermanently ban our accounts for
even mentioning that that's ourcareer, which is just absolute

(31:37):
madness. But also, when I havetold, particularly men, on
dating apps that that's my job,it encourages fetishization of
the work or seeing me as a sexobject. You know, I've had
people reply with just really, Ithink that they they mean well,
and they think that they're openminded dudes, but the stuff
they're replying is reallymaking me feel like that's all

(32:00):
they see me as suddenly. And soI'd rather not do that
immediately. I'd rather waituntil we meet in person and they
get an idea of me. What's yourexperience with that? Jenna, how
long do you usually wait?

Jenna Love (32:12):
Yeah, I don't wait at all, I would prefer every
single person that I've evercome into contact with in my
life to know that I'm a sexworker, because I would like to
know if they have a problem withthat, because I don't have time
to fuck with those people. LikeI'm not interested in investing
a second of my life intosomebody that thinks that I'm

(32:33):
less than because of what I do.
So I'm very much you know,upfront, I want to know straight
away, and if they do respond ina fetishizing way, I'm like
"Cool. Goodbye", or respondsaying, "Oh, isn't that a bit
eurgh?" "Okay, cool. No worries,goodbye". And I know, I don't
expect everyone can be to becompletely woke and up with sex
worker issues. And, you know, Ispend a lot of my time doing
activism and, and speaking topeople who don't know about this

(32:55):
stuff, but if we're talkingabout, you know, me, my personal
dating life, I don't have timefor that shit. But that being
said, that's really, really,really easy for me to do,
because I am completely outabout my work, as you like, your
example with Luke is a greatone, where if you are not
completely out about your work,every single person that you

(33:16):
tell is a potential liability.
So if you're sort of, and Ithink that that's something we
really need to, we really needto keep in mind, because I think
it's all well and good to say,"Oh, you've got to be upfront
and tell people" and that's sortof, that's how I like to live my
life. But telling somebody thatyou're a sex worker can put your
safety in danger. You don't knowhow they're going to react, they

(33:39):
can weaponize that if you have acivilian job, as we call it,
they can contact your employers,they can contact family members.
And I think that as a result,telling people straight away is
just not always an option for alot of sex workers. And they
have to really tread a lot morecarefully and wait until they
have developed a sense of trustwith someone which is tricky,

(34:02):
because then that person maythen feel that the trust has
been broken because they'vewithheld something from them.
But it's, I mean, it's bloodydifficult. And I obviously I've
had such brilliant experiences,I can't tell them, I don't have
any good advice for how tomanage that. I'm often asked
"how does me being a sex workeraffect my relationship or my
relationships?" And while Iacknowledge that for many people

(34:25):
it does, in my case, it justdoesn't. It never has, since
becoming a sex worker, I'vedated five people. So including
my husband, that's six peopleand you know, people that don't
want to believe this aren'tgoing to believe it. But I can
tell you that there has neverbeen a single issue in those
relationships as a result of mywork. And a lot of people often

(34:46):
when I speak to media, they--Imention my husband, and they go,
"Oh, oh, do you think we couldtalk to him?" And as I said
before, he's quite shy and he'slike, "ah, I don't know if I
really want to talk to people".
But he also--and I'm puttingwords in his mouth, I know, but
his other thing when people saylike, "how do you make it work?
Or how does it affect yourrelationship?" He's like, "I
don't know. It just doesn't. Shegoes to work and she comes home.

(35:08):
Like, it's literally like anyother job". And I know that not
everyone sees it as literallyany other job. And, of course,
there is the element where Ihave sex with other people. I
know that's a part of it. Butfor him, and for all the other
partners I've had, they've justbeen... it honestly has just
been a non issue. I've heard sexworkers say that they've dated

(35:28):
people who they thought it wouldbe a non issue with, and the
person has acted really coolwith it. But then when they've
had arguments or somethingthey've thrown it in their
faces, and I am so so gratefulthat I've never had that
experience. If somebody were tothrow sex work in my face in an
argument, I might commit myfirst ever act of violence. That
would be just completelyunacceptable. So it's really sad

(35:50):
to hear that people have hadthose experiences. But in my
case, it just, it just hasn'tbeen a thing. Of those six
relationships, only two of themare still going. I actually had
a breakup at the beginning ofthis year, which is the main
reason why we haven't done thisepisode until now. We originally
talked about doing it early on,and I was far too heartbroken

(36:10):
and kept bursting into tears.
And we were like, "okay, let'sleave that one till later". And
I can tell you that being anescort is the hardest fucking
job in the world when you'reheartbroken. It is not easy to
be there for other people whenyou're feeling that way. But I'm
all good now. And yeah, only twoof those relationships still
exist. But none of them endedbecause of anything to do with

(36:32):
sex work, they just came to anend as relationships do. Have
you had it sort of affect yourrelationships in the past?
As I've said before, my exesdidn't take it well. But I
definitely dated a differentkind of person when I was
younger, I've mentioned before,I have been single now for over
10 years. And in that time, Ihave grown so much and developed

(36:56):
so much more self esteem. So Idon't think I would be dating
people now who would have thatlevel of insecurity. And I don't
think it's even just aboutinsecurity. But I think I would
date people who are more open todiscussion, people who are able
to tell me when they are feelinginsecure, or when they're not
comfortable with something, andwe can work this out between us.
I think, in the past, there wereissues in my relationships,

(37:18):
because I was dating people whowere quite mature, and who
weren't good communicators. Nowcommunication is such an
important thing to me and datingsomeone who values me highly. So
I would hope going forward thatthat's not the sort of thing
that I would have to deal withwhen I'm dating. So now that I'm
a grown woman with some selfrespect, I would only date

(37:39):
someone who accepts me for myentire basket case self, bunch
of cats and dogs sex work andmental illness included
And me. I'm part of the packagedeal.

Jenna is definitely part of the package deal. And
therefore Mr. Love by proxy. So

Jenna Love (37:56):
Mr. Love is nodding because he knows that Holly is
part of my package deal. He'salways having to hear us
chatting nonstop, all throughoutthe different hours of the
night. Yeah, I do think I'vebeen lucky with the people that
I do spend my time around. Youknow, I grew up and really found
myself in the arts community andthe theatre community, and in a

(38:19):
lot of queer circles, and Ithink that's what a lot of
people don't realise, whenthey're surprised that sex
workers are in relationships, alot of sex workers do sit at
those intersections of themargins, a lot of us are LGBTQ.
There's a lot of sex workers whoare involved in like, other
lefty spheres and who might beinvolved in--there's a lot that

(38:40):
have been performers, because,which kind of makes sense. I
think the two jobs kind of gohand in hand. So it's not a
surprise that we would findpartners who are very sort of
open minded, who are sexpositive, who understand
marginalisation and whounderstand perhaps a less
tradition al way of living life.

Civilians often ask, doesn't your partner worry
about what you do for work?
Don't they worry about yoursafety. Do you find that?

Jenna Love (39:09):
Yeah, people ask me this all the time. I mean, to an
extent like, yeah, we all worryabout our partners, obviously,
we don't want any harm to cometo them. But what I normally say
is, you know, my husband, hedrives a forklift for a living.
And if you want to talk aboutsafety at work, like have you
watched videos of forkliftaccidents, because I have and

(39:30):
they're fucking horrifying. Andnobody ever says to me, "Oh,
Jenna, are you? Are you okaywith Mr. Love working in a
warehouse?" You know, no oneever says that. And yeah, I do.
I have these little moments of"Oh my god, what if something
horrible happens to him?" Butthe way I deal with that, and
again, I'm putting words in hismouth, but I can only assume

(39:50):
that he feels the same way, isby going well, I trust and
respect him and I love him. Iknow that he's a really sensible
person and that he's going tofollow the work health and
safety guidelines, I know he'sreally sensible, he's not
somebody who's going to go dofoolish things. I think, you
know, incredibly highly of him.
So obviously, I think he's goingto take the right precautions to

(40:11):
look after himself. And thathe's not going to be silly and
foolish and muck around with hisown health and safety. And I
would suggest he feels the sameway about me. And certainly
earlier on, when we knew lessabout the industry, he was more
concerned about that. But heknows that I'm not an idiot, and
that I'm going to do what I needto do to protect myself. And he

(40:33):
also knows that my activism is apart of keeping myself safe.
Because that's, I mean, it'spart of keeping all sex workers
safer. And that's why it's soimportant to me. So I think it's
a bit silly to ask if you're, ifyour partner worries about you
at work, because there's a lotof jobs that that have dangers
in them of all different kinds.

(40:53):
And I think that what you haveto do is you have to just trust
that your partner is doing theright thing. And I think like,
I'm certainly not anti monogamy.
But I think a lot of the peoplethat have these ideas are very,
like pro monogamy. And I thinkmonogamy is fine, I just don't
think it should be like set upas the standard, I think it's a
decent option to have. I justpersonally think it's a little
bit weird, but that's okay. AndI sort of go how--you're all

(41:15):
about monogamy, you're all aboutthis, like one person for the
rest of your life. And yet youdon't have enough trust and
respect in that person to trusttheir decisions, and to know
that they're going to do theright thing for them and for the
two of you? Like that's a bitweird to me.

This is another one that I don't have lived
experience with. But I think I'dbe really clear with my partner
about the safety measures that Itake. And I'm sure or I would
hope that they would appreciatemy ability as an adult to manage
my own safety. They are mypartner, not my parent, even
though when you're in any sortof relationship, that's just

(41:54):
what you do. When you lovesomeone you worry, you care, and
you hope that they don't gethurt. But there is a line where
that becomes prohibitive andjust becomes neuroses.

Jenna Love (42:05):
I mean, if you let your partner--"if you let your
partner" God, who am I becoming?
If you're comfortable with yourpartner driving to work every
day, but you're not comfortablewith what they're doing at the
job, then your views on safetymight be a little bit skewed, I
think

Is there room in sex worker relationships for
monogamy?

Jenna Love (42:24):
Yes, absolutely. And this is a big one. And I think
I've been hesitant to talk aboutthis because I'm so open about
being non monogamous and notbeing a fan of monogamy, really,
as I said. No, I think it'sfine. I think it's a good
choice. But I just think it'sweird how it's held up as though
that's the standard and anythingelse is a deviation. But I think

(42:44):
the best way that I canillustrate this, from my
experience is that when I firstwent into the sex industry, my
husband and I were monogamous.
And it wasn't until I actuallytook a break from the industry
that we decided to sort ofexplore non monogamy, moreso
from my needs, it was somethingthat I wanted to try. And he was
like, "Okay, we'll give this ago" because he's a legend. And
in fact, then that we started toexplore polyamory, which is a

(43:06):
whole kind of nother level. AndI think that what's really
telling is that when I wanted tobegin doing sex work, we had a
lot of conversations, but wewere like, "okay, yeah, cool.
Let's give that a go. And Ithink that'll be all right".
When we moved to doing nonmonogamy, when we moved to the
step of me, spending time withother people in an intimate

(43:28):
setting without there beingpayment. That was a much bigger
jump, that said a lot more aboutour relationship. So they're
just two completely differentthings. The fact that I'm a sex
worker is not why we are in anopen relationship. That's just
because I'm a big slut. It'squite a different issue. But
yeah, they are completelydifferent things. And so even

(43:52):
though I am in an openrelationship at this point, that
has nothing to do with my work,I work a job, and I have a
relationship style. And thosetwo things, pretty much have
nothing to do with each other.
So in that sense, absolutely. Itcan be monogamous, or it can be
not.

My preference for relationships is generally
monogamy - it has been in thepast. As I get older, though, I
do like the idea of notnecessarily an open
relationship, but maybe moreflexibility. As I said before,
I'm open to discussion with mypartners. And we can discuss
those sorts of things withoutjudgement, that would be an
ideal relationship for me wheremaybe at some point, my partner

(44:30):
says, I'm feeling like this, andI can express my feelings and I
can go the same way. If I wasdoing sex work at the time, and
honestly, even if I wasn't doingsex work during the
relationship, I would becomfortable with my partner
saying sex workers. I don't findthat threatening in any way. And
I understand sometimes there's aneed for variety and that

(44:51):
doesn't really offend me thatonce again, my job does not mean
that I am immediately open toone thing or another

Jenna Love (45:03):
COVID-19 has had a significant impact on the sex
industry. And snap lock downsand travel restrictions mean
that there are times when sexworkers require emergency
financial relief in order forthem and their dependents to
stay safe housed and fed.

Sex workers don't get sick or holiday pay, and
many have no savings to fallback on. The stigma and
discrimination that we facemeans that some have no proof of
earnings to access governmentsupport. And of course, migrant
workers are often forgotten.

Jenna Love (45:30):
Scarlet Alliance and their state and territory member
organisations joined together tocreate an ongoing fund that is
hosted on the website Chuffed.

Donations are tax deductible, 100% of funds raised
go directly to sex workers inneed, and most weeks the amount
of people apply outweigh theamount of funds raised and
sadly, people have to be turnedaway. The link to this fund is
in our show notes.

Jenna Love (46:00):
Our misconception for this week is one that I
brought up and found out quitequickly that Holly and I have
different views on it. Basicallythat I thought it was a
misconception and she maybeisn't sure if it is so much of a
misconception. So let's discuss.
It is that men are always payingfor it somehow. "It" being sex,
basically. So do you see this asa misconception, Holly? Or is it

(46:23):
just me?

It's such a hard one. Because immediately when
you said that to me earlier thisweek, I went "...I mean they
are". But as we discussed itfurther, I'm not quite sure
anymore. It's a really complexone, because it does revolve
around power dynamics and genderroles, and heteronormative
assumptions that we make inrelationships. So I generally

(46:46):
think at first glance, men arepaying for it one way or
another. I think generally, menusually are the more sexually
driven people in a relationshipor in society. And women
therefore hold the power of thepussy, as some people call it.
So therefore, if a man's goal isto obtain sexual interaction

(47:08):
with a woman, there is someamount of time or financial or
emotional investment that goesinto that. And I know that's
making it extremelytransactional. But I think if
you look at any dynamic insociety, they are transactional,
not always, but there aretransactional elements to
different dynamics. And that ispart of it--is that in one way

(47:30):
or another, a man, if he wantsto obtain that sexual
interaction, there will be someinvestment in one way or
another. That's my understandingor my feelings on it. Tell me
why it's a misconception. Tellme why that doesn't tickle your
pickle.

Jenna Love (47:44):
It does--it shrivels my pickle, I fucking hate it. I
hate hate hate this. I am havinga visceral reaction to it. But
that was interesting listeningto you talk about it. Because it
did make me--like when you said,you know, any interaction we
have with other people issomewhat transactional. And
that's--actually it's aphilosophy in theatre, I used to

(48:05):
study acting and one of thethings that's really crucial to
acting is that you go into everyinteraction that your character
has with another character, withan objective wanting to get
something out of thatinteraction. And the philosophy
behind that is that whenever wehave an interaction with another
person, we're doing it to getsomething out of it, even if
that thing is a bonding,comfort, or, you know, it can be

(48:28):
an altruistic thing that you'regetting out of it. But we're
always wanting something out ofeverything that we do. We don't
do things without purpose. Soactually hearing you say that I
was like, "Okay, all right, Ican understand where that's
coming from". But I stillfucking hate it. It's often used
to validate sex work, I hear itused as an argument a lot,

(48:50):
especially from men inparticular, who will, you know,
comment and say, well, "sex workis fine, because all men are
paying for it somehow anyway".
And I sort of go, I don't needyou to validate my work. I don't
need that argument made. Asyou've said, it's
heteronormative it's fuckingstupid. Because what about-does
that mean that men who have sexwith men are all paying each
other at the same? Like itdoesn't...? It doesn't make any

(49:12):
sense. And I think I it reallycuts me personally, I think
because particularly sincebecoming a sex worker, I'm
really staunch that myrelationships are amongst two
equals. And I know that it's nottalking just about money. It's
talking about, as you said,emotional investment, time, etc.
But you know, I'm a realsplit-the-bill girl. Before I

(49:34):
was a sex worker, I didn'treally care about that stuff so
much. But because I have allthese transactional
relationships in my life, it isvitally important to me that my
personal relationships are nottransactional, and that we're
both really contributing equallyto the relationship. And when I
hear people say this, I go"you're saying that Mr. Love is
somehow paying to be able tofuck me and that makes me--I

(49:58):
feel disgusted". Thatcompletely--I mean, I call me
romantic, call me naive, but Ibelieve that we have a really
equal beautiful relationship.
And it's not based on himwanting to get into my pants.
And it's the same when I get alot of clients who say to me,
"Oh, my God, Mr. Love is solucky" because they think I'm

(50:19):
great in bed or whatever. AndI'm like, "Well, actually, yeah,
he's lucky, because I'm amazing.
But it's not--it's nothing to dowith the bedroom". Like, sure,
that's a part of ourrelationship. But that... it's
not--he's not putting up withme. I think it suggests that
women have to be put up with inorder for men to get their dicks
wet. And I think that's reallyfucked. And I just, I think
it's...I hate it. I just hateit.

Yeah, I definitely think part of my view comes from
some amount of internalisedmisogyny, and I totally
recognise that. But I alsothink, as I said, before, power
dynamics are really important.
And I think in yourrelationship, you have a very
healthy, equal power dynamic,where you both want the same
things, and you both have thesame respect for each other. And
that's really healthy. And I'msure, that's what we all would

(51:04):
have as an ideal. But that isnot, in my opinion, often the
case in society, that bothpartners have the same interests
in sex, or that they both havethe same values and things like
that, I think, in society, itjust does tend to be reflected
that women are less inclined tobe intimate with their partners.

(51:26):
That may just be a stereotype.
But I think there's fuel to thatfire. I think that's there's
some truth to it. And in my pastrelationships, there definitely
has been, but yes, society as awhole tends to, to function in a
certain way. And maybe thatreinforces views that aren't
particularly healthy in myselfand in other people, I
definitely get what you'resaying about it seeming like we

(51:48):
are a burden, and managers doingwhatever they have to do to get
into our pants, and that feelsreally shitty. But I do still
think that there is some truthto the idea that, if that's a
man's goal, there is investmentin it. And like you said, using
it to justify seeing sexworkers, it does make sense to
me, because if you're a guy whoyour whole goal is, I want to

(52:12):
have sex this week, or I want tohave sex. And that is your goal,
then whether or not you go onTinder, or you catch up with a
girl that you used to go toschool with, and you lay all the
groundwork and you do--orwhatever it is, there is some
payment, there is someinvestment that you have to put
in.

Jenna Love (52:27):
But do those people not also have the same goal? If
your way of going and achievingthat is getting on a dating app
or hooking up with someone, thenthe two of you are looking for
the same goal, it's not likeyou're going out and you need to
buy them drinks, and you need tospend time in order to get them
into bed. And that's notsomething that they want to do?
Like that's their payment?

I think a lot of men don't, aren't inclined to
want to go through that wholedating experience themselves. So
it feels like they're having toput in--if their only goal is
for sex, it feels like the manis having to put in work. Even
if the woman wants them,

Jenna Love (53:00):
Well then they should just go to a sex worker!

That's exactly, exactly, exactly.

Jenna Love (53:04):
If that's what they want!

Yeah, 100%. But I think there are a lot of men out
there who--sure, there are a lotof people who want complex
things in relationships anddifferent sorts of dynamics. And
that's a whole other thing. ButI think there are a lot of men
out there that just want sex.
And because of the way thatwomen view sex as part, or
sorry, and I'm generalisingmassively here, but that women
generally say sex is more of anemotional thing, or they need to

(53:26):
know, or give a fuck about whothey're fucking often, like, we
don't just want any dick, wewant some dick that we care--,
whereas a lot of men in myexperience, I wouldn't say
they're not as fussy. But theend goal is sex, not anything
too much deeper than that. Sobecause of that, sort of the way
that sex is--that sexualcurrency is held, when men are

(53:48):
just driven to go and just getsex, and that's all they want,
it probably feels like paymentto have to then go through a
process of "I've got to meetthis girl. And then I've got to,
you know, invest my time intoher and then go somewhere with
her and pay for the blah, blah,blah". And it's, I can see the
reaction on your face. Now, it'snot glamorous, it's not
romantic, it's not sexy, but Ithink it is a function of that

(54:10):
whole dynamic. And that probablyfeels like payments. So like you
said, go and see a sex worker.
And that's what a lot of themdo. They come and see sex
workers, they don't have to gothrough any of the social
awkwardness or the financialoutlay, or the time outlay or
any of that sort of stuff to getwhat is purely just sex.

Jenna Love (54:28):
Yeah, well, that I think that's a great solution.
To me, it's this, likepretending that it's not
transactional, but thinking thatit is going--I've got to do
these things in order to havesex. Fuck that. If yeah, if you
need to pay for it, then cool.
That's everyone's upfront.
Everyone knows what the deal is.
Just look, I really, reallyappreciate you sharing your view
on it because you've given mestuff to think about. And we--

Likewise

Jenna Love (54:51):
We each we know that we like to disagree on things
and we're comfortable with that.
But I just think it's a reallygross way of looking at it and
people in your interactions withthem. But I think that you're
right in terms of being a bitmore maybe realistic about how a
lot of relationships actually dowork.

I definitely agree that there are gross elements to
that. And I also don't want topaint myself as having those
sorts of values. I don't wantanyone listening to be like,
"Oh, that's what Holly thinks isokay". That's just my
perspective on how the worldworks. And as I said, it may be
elements of misogyny in myself,and it may be bits of uneducated
parts, and some of it may beright. So once again, it's all

(55:29):
just my opinion. And, as always,it's a pleasure disagreeing with
you, Jenna.

Jenna Love (55:37):
For Shit People Say this week, I was recently
reminded of a conversation I hadwith a client many years ago.
Now, this was a client, who hisinitial contact with me was a
text message that just said,"Hi". And I think I responded
back "Hi", he said, "How areyou?" I, probably knowing me,
said "fine", probably with afull stop, because I do tend to

(55:58):
be a bit passive aggressive. Andany sex workers listening will
be familiar with this, we callthem "hi" guys. And often they
are seen as people who arewasting our time, people who
aren't serious about actuallymaking a booking. And a lot of
the time, it depends, if we'requite busy, we may just ignore
messages like that. A lot of sexworkers, particularly those in

(56:18):
positions to turn away work willjust ignore anybody who doesn't
submit a proper booking inquiry,and other workers will, you
know, respond to every singlemessage they get regardless of
it. For me, it really depends onhow I'm feeling. At this time, I
was obviously bored enough to goalong with the conversation. And
he did then go on to make abooking. So then we had the
booking, and during it, he saidto me, "thanks so much for

(56:43):
responding to my message,because most sex workers just
don't respond". And I was like,"oh, okay, well, that's because
you just say, Hi, you're being aHi, guy". He was like, "oh, what
else am I supposed to say?" AndI was like, well, you're
supposed to write you know, "hiJenna, I saw you on this
website. I'd love to make abooking around this time. Do you
have this availability, etc?
Here is my screeninginformation". And he was like,

(57:04):
"Whoa, that's a bit full on,isn't it?" And I was like, "No,
that's just how you should doit"

Basic manners

Jenna Love (57:12):
From my perspective, yeah. And he said, "Oh, you
can't just jump straight to thesex. Like, you've got to, you
know, say hi, introduceyourself, get to know someone a
little bit". And I was like,"oh, but we're not courting".

Good luck! And it made me realise--And
until then, I had no idea whythese people would say, just
"Hi", or "Hi, how are you", or"you available?". And it was
really interesting to get insidehis mind. Because he viewed it
as really rude to speak to awoman in the first message talk
about arranging to get togetherto have sex. And I was like,

(57:43):
"right... but it's a business".
You know, when you contact yourdentist, you don't go "Hi. Oh,
yeah. How have you been? Ah,okay, what's new with the kids?
Cool" and then make a booking,you just fucking make a booking
because it's a business andotherwise, you'd be wasting

Jenna Love (57:59):
Yeah, no worries.
But I thought that wastheir time. So it just made me
realise that a lot of theseguys, they actually think
they're being really polite. Andit's perceived by us as being
incredibly rude. And somethingI've written on my etiquette
page as well, because I think alot of things that clients or
potential clients do that areperceived as the nice thing to

(58:19):
do are actually considered quiterude by those of us in the
industry. Anyway, at the end ofthe conversation, I explained
all of that to him. And he waslike, "No, I'm not going to be
doing that". He refused to takemy advice. And he was like,
"that seems really impolite tojust jump straight into it". And
I was like, "Alright, well,you're going to keep having
people not responding messagesbut cool, whatever you do you.

(58:45):
interesting. And it's good toknow that that's where they're
coming--well, that's where someof those people might be coming
from. The reason I thought thatwas relevant for this week is
because it was like they viewedit as a courtship period. And I
was like, you don't need tocourt us though. That's not what
this--we're not courting. And ifwe were, that would not achieve
it. That would not make mypanties wet. It's time for us to

(59:10):
give a huge thank you to oursupporters on Patreon. We've had
three new Generous Somebodiessign up they are Nick, Scott,
and Abby.

Our Even Mor Generous Somebodies are Tim
y, Andrew, Adam Smith, Lo, Lachlan, Cass, Sub London, Mi
s Billy, Diane Needs,ora Knightley, Lesley, and
cott Watson. Our Extremely Geerous Somebodies are Aaron,
amuel, Andrew, Pete, and Teodore Betts, the first E

Jenna Love (59:44):
Thank you so much for listening to us today. We
love having you here. And pleaseremember to sort of spruik us on
social media if you feel sonclined. We would really like
hat, we'd love to get ourmessage out there. Please look
out for us on Twitter,Instagram, Facebook, and
Patreon. Our name everywhere issomebodyyoupod (as in podcast).

(01:00:07):
Our Patreon starts at just $3 amonth, and you can get all of
our episodes ad-free and a dayearly, plus bonus episodes
behind the scenes actionbloopers and more. Thank you fo
taking the time to listen to thvoices of sex workers. An
remember, Somebody You Lovmight just be a sex worker

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

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14. Somebody You Love has relationships

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