September 30, 2021 • 41 mins
Today we are speaking to The Alice Grey. Alice is a full service provider and internet sweetie based in Melbourne, Australia. She is a lover of intricate lingerie and rich red wine, cosy restaurants and couch cuddles. Alice has also brought along her partner, who we will be calling Mr G. They’ve been together for 2.5 years and we thought were the perfect way to follow up last week’s episode on relationships as sex workers. We also throw in a Question of the Week from a listener who has a predicament about developing feelings for their provider.
Scarlet Alliance Emergency Relief Fund: https://chuffed.org/project/sex-worker-support
CHAPTERS
2:34 Main Segment: Lovebirds Alice and Mr G
28:47 Question of the Week: Listener question about falling for a provider
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For more info on sex work in Australia, please check out the following organisations:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jenna Love (00:02):
COVID-19 has had a significant impact on the sex
industry. And snap lock downsand travel restrictions mean
that there are times when sexworkers require emergency
financial relief in order forthem and their dependents to
stay safe housed and fed.
Holly Harte (00:16):
Sex workers don't get sick or holiday pay and many
have no savings to fall back on.
The stigma and discriminationthat we face means that some
have no proof of earnings toaccess government support. And
of course, migrant workers areoften forgotten.
Jenna Love (00:28):
Scarlet Alliance and their state and territory member
organisations joined together tocreate an ongoing fund that is
hosted on the website chuffedthat's c-h-u-f-f-e-d.
Holly Harte (00:39):
Donations are tax deductible. 100% of funds raised
go directly to sex workers inneed. And most weeks the amount
of people apply outweigh theamount of funds raised and sadly
people have to be turned away.
The link to this fund is in ourshow notes.
Jenna Love (00:56):
Welcome to Somebody You Love, or the sale of two
titties. I'm Jenna Love.
Holly Harte (01:04):
And I'm Holly Harte.
Jenna Love (01:06):
And we're experts in disappointing our parents,
breaching community guidelinesand banging the people who vote
against our rights.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back tothe show. First up, we would
like to acknowledge thetraditional owners of the land
on which we are recording. I'mon Darug and Gundungurra land,
Holly is on Ngunnawal land andour guests today are calling in
(01:28):
from the land of the Wurundjeripeople of the Kulin nation, we
pay our respects to elders pastand present, and to the
continuation of the cultural,spiritual and educational
practices of Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander peoples.
Holly Harte (01:42):
In case it's not already obvious, we'd like to
remind you that this is an adultpodcast about adult things. We
talk about sex, and we talkabout sex work. So if that's not
your jam, now's the time to goand do something far less
interesting.
Jenna Love (01:55):
Now, today's episode is alarmingly blinding. And it's
whiteness. And it's also prettypretty cisgendered. And I'm
pretty heterosexual. So we needto stress that that is not
reflective of the diversity ofthe sex industry. It has always
been the goal of the SomebodyYou Love team to be able to give
a platform to as wide a range ofsex workers as possible. And
(02:16):
that is something that wecontinue to be committed to
achieving. But we also know thatit's not something that we can
do all at once and immediatelystraight out of the gate. If
you're interested in being aguest on the show, or if you
know somebody who might be,please go to
somebodyyoulove.net/guests.
Holly Harte (02:35):
Today we are speaking to The Alice Great.
Alice is a full service providerand internet sweetie based in
Melbourne, Australia. She is alover of intricate lingerie and
rich red wine, cosy restaurantsand couch cuddles. Alice has
also brought along her partnerwho we will be calling Mr. G. No
relation to Chris Lilley, forour Aussie listeners. They've
(02:57):
been together for two and a halfyears and we thought they were
the perfect way to follow uplast week's episode on
relationships as sex workers.
Jenna Love (03:05):
So hi Alice and hi, Mr. G.
Holly Harte (03:09):
Welcome.
Alice Grey (03:10):
Hey, friends.
Mr G (03:11):
Hey, thanks for having us on.
Jenna Love (03:12):
So let's get stuck into questions, shall we?
Alice Grey (03:15):
Let's do it.
Jenna Love (03:16):
My first question is for Alice. How did you two meet?
Alice Grey (03:22):
We met on Tinder it's, it's very, it was very
cute. I was on Tinder for thewhole of like, 48 hours
scrolling through profiles,deciding that I hated life and
hated Tinder. And yeah, I cameacross my dude. And it's been
great.
Jenna Love (03:43):
So was that your first time on Tinder?
Alice Grey (03:45):
No, it was my second. But it was very similar.
It's just not a, it's not a wayof meeting people that comes
naturally to me. We live in thisworld that thrives online. And
so when you sit across fromsomeone in a cafe or on public
transport, and try and strike upa conversation, they think
you're crazy. So it was, it wasalways really awkward. And yeah,
(04:08):
just not something that I wantedto spend a lot of time doing.
But I was lucky to find someoneamazing. In a very short amount
of time.
Holly Harte (04:15):
I can also concur that Tinder is a dumpster fire.
So it's very good when youstrike gold.
Jenna Love (04:21):
Yeah, nice success story.
Holly Harte (04:23):
Question for Alice.
How did you tell Mr. Grey aboutyour line of work?
Alice Grey (04:27):
Oh, man, I put it in my Tinder bio. But
unfortunately, dating apps don'tlike sex workers. And so I had
it in there that I was a smallbusiness owner for a number of
years. And naturally, peoplewere sort of curious to go, 'Oh,
okay, well, what does thatmean?' And that would be a nice
segue. But I knew that it wassomething that I wanted to bring
(04:49):
up as early as I possibly could.
Holly Harte (04:51):
And so how did you go about that?
Alice Grey (04:53):
I think, I think I was headed to a booking and Greg
asked me where, what I did orwhere I was going. And I
mentioned that I was a sexworker. And it was really, it
was just a bit of a nothingconversation really, it was
quite natural. And I suppose wewere talking through a text
based medium. So it all lookedvery calm, but internally, I was
(05:14):
freaking out.
Mr G (05:15):
It was one of the one of the, yeah, one of the first
things, like it was sort of,'Hey, how are you?' You know, a
few other pleasantries, and thenI think it was something along
the lines of like, 'I'm justheading off to work. So I might
not be able to talk for a bit'.
And I was like, 'Oh, cool. Sosmall business, kind of thing.
Like what does that involve?'And like, straight up straight
up, like 'I'm, I'm a fullservice sex worker'. And it's
like, 'Oh, okay, cool'.
Jenna Love (05:37):
So how did you react to that? Is that something that
you had any experience with? Didyou know what a full service sex
worker was?
Mr G (05:45):
I'd never heard that term before. But like it's kind of
pretty, pretty obvious. It's allin the name there.
Alice Grey (05:51):
There is a lot of jargon in our industry.
Mr G (05:53):
But no, it's like, it like obvious like, alright, cool. I
guess I was shocked. Not inlike, 'Oh, my god' kind of
sense. But like, to myknowledge, I've never met a sex
worker before. So I was like,okay, cool. But yeah, like there
was definitely like a vibehappening. So I think one of the
first things I did after thatwas like, I think I googled
like, 'Relationship with sexworkers' or something like that.
(06:16):
Like I didn't really know how tofeel like, then yeah, I was just
kind of like, sort of, you know,see what the internet kind of
thinks.
Jenna Love (06:23):
Good thing you didn't ask Reddit because they
would have just told you to, tocancel it. Throw her in the bin.
Mr G (06:27):
Yeah, yeah, Reddit's, you know, it's all over the shop,
depending on which subreddit yougo to. But yeah, I think I think
I found like it was a forum orlike, maybe a blog post or
something. And it was like,ultimately, it boils down to,
it's just a job. And I was like,well, that makes a lot of sense.
Holly Harte (06:43):
Alice do you ever have any concerns about what Mr.
Grey's family thinks? Or ifpeople he knows, recognise you?
Alice Grey (06:50):
Those are two very separate questions. I think, you
know, when you're in arelationship with someone, you
do want validation from theirfamily, you want them to like
you, right? Otherwise, you know,Christmas celebrations will be
very awkward. So, given thatGreg's family, are a little bit
more on the conservative side,yes, I am, and we are, a little
bit hesitant to tell them andhave made the decision not to
(07:14):
share my work with them. Whichis a difficult decision in and
of itself. And as for peoplerecognising me, well, I'm
virtually open about my workwith most people in my life
aside from my own parents, andGreg's parents so if someone
were to recognise me and have aproblem with that then I think
that's on them
Jenna Love (07:35):
Perfectly answered.
If it's not going to out you,can you tell us what his and
your parents think that you do?
Alice Grey (07:42):
Well I have a history of work in research so
they think that I'm stillworking there.
Jenna Love (07:47):
It's always good when it's partially true when
there's I, you know, my coverstory was makeup artist for a
long time because I was trainedas a makeup artist, so I could,
you know, it was easy to keep itgoing. Yeah.
Alice Grey (07:58):
For sure. And with the pandemic, unfortunately a
lot of research roles ended, somany people have become
unemployed. I have since foundemployment in hospitality, which
I love but doesn't really bodewell in lockdown. So everyone
knows that I'm unemployed at themoment, which is fine.
Jenna Love (08:17):
Alrighty, Mr. G. So, have you had any negative
comments or bizarre assumptionsthat have come from people who
know what your partner does as ajob?
Mr G (08:26):
No, so it's pretty ,it's like Alice's family doesn't
know, so my family don't know, Ikind of keep it like sort of two
layers so like, the people closeto me, my my close friends know.
And then anyone sort of outsideof that it's ah, Alice is a
student. And she doeshospitality work which is true.
Yeah, and for most like, thinklike 99% of the responses are
(08:49):
either positive or kind ofinquisitive. But I've never had
anyone like straight up have anegative response to that which
is, which is kind of good and itsort of reflects on the people
I've chosen to keep close likethe people you know, I enjoy
spending time with they're allgood people and I think for the
most part like that reflects intheir response really.
Alice Grey (09:06):
I think that equally reflects upon you my dude.
Mr G (09:09):
Aw thank you.
Jenna Love (09:10):
Aww they're so in love.
Alice Grey (09:12):
We're adorable.
Holly Harte (09:16):
Alice, were you dating much before you met Mr.
Grey? And like what was yourdating experience like as a sex
worker, before you found thisbeautiful relationship?
Alice Grey (09:26):
I feel like I had a really broad spectrum of
experiences in dating. But I amalso a serial monogamist. So my
first long term relationshipwhile I was also a sex worker,
was really complex and dramatic.
I actually hid my job from thatpartner for a really, really
long time. And it's certainly
n (09:47):
advise or B
heart and I broke my own heart.
It was terrible, and I sworethat I was never, ever gonna
hide my job again. But it alsoleft me feeling that I was not
worthy of love or finding arelationship being a sex worker.
(10:08):
That sucked. But the nextrelationship that I walked into,
that was an interesting one. Andunfortunately, that became
abusive. I thought that I was, Ithought that I was loved and
appreciated by this person, justbecause they were willing to
tolerate my job when that wasnot the case. And that person
decided that they wanted to beable to manipulate the way that
(10:30):
I was doing my job, and who Iwas, what I could do. So yeah,
that that ended prettydramatically as well. But then I
had a substantial amount of timeby myself and did some work on
myself, established personalboundaries, and also some you
know, self love and selfrespect. And I think that that,
in and of itself is what enabledme to, to have such a happy and
(10:53):
successful relationship that Ihave now.
Jenna Love (10:55):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. That's, well
it's not great to hear that youhad some not so great
experiences, but I think that alot of people listening can
relate. And yeah, it's notalways an easy road dating as a
sex worker, it just isn't.
Alice Grey (11:09):
No, it's not, unfortunately, yeah, there are
people out there who who see usas a bit of a commodity to
profit from or to control andmake work for them. Some people
fetishize us and others thinkthat it's just sexy until it's
not, and then they don't havethe skills to handle it when
it's not. And this is somethingthat many of us go through every
(11:33):
single day.
Jenna Love (11:34):
And that, it sounds like with the second partner
that you spoke about, that yousort of, initially, it seemed as
though everything was fine. Andhe was completely okay with your
work, but then obviously hadvery strong opinions about what
your work actually entailed. SoI guess it's the the difficulty
in, when somebody says, 'Yeah,no worries', it's working out
(11:55):
whether that is reallyreflective of what's inside.
Alice Grey (11:58):
Definitely, I think it just speaks to a lack of
broader understanding of whatsex work actually is. And
people's experiences with it, Ithink that most guys think of
sex work as you know, going tothe strippers or maybe going to
a brothel. And, you know, it allsounds like a lot of fun at the
beginning. But then when they'reactually faced with that, on an
intimate level, not many havethe experience or the knowledge
(12:20):
to to work with it, particularlyin an intimate setting.
Jenna Love (12:23):
So something we hear a lot is that there's this
assumption that as a sex worker,if you're in a relationship with
somebody, that it must be somekind of open or non-monogamous
relationship. So Mr.G what areyour thoughts on being
monogamous, when Alice isobviously intimate with her
clients?
Mr G (12:40):
I think it's just like, ultimately, the framework comes
down to the fact that she'shaving sex with people in a, in
a workplace context, like, justthe same, like if I was dating a
chef, like, how could I be mad,that they're going out and
cooking food for other people?
Like, you know, that's like,it's a job, you know, like, we
we're all, we're all in thissort of thing, together, this
(13:00):
system where like, we have to doyou know, things for money to
exist in this society. So yeah,it's just in this context, it's,
it's, you know, sex and sexassociated things. So I think
like, at the end of the day,it's like, alright, cool, you
know, we all leave home and dosomething, but at the end of the
day, you know, we both cometogether, and we spend time
(13:22):
together outside of thatworkplace, you know, context.
So, like, I'm not gonna get madat an accountant, because, you
know, they're off, you know,doing someone else's accounting
stuff...
Alice Grey (13:34):
It's funny that you call us accountants (laughs)
Jenna Love (13:37):
Yeah, good analogy
Mr G (13:39):
Yeah, yeah. That's, like, yeah, ultimately, it just boils
Alice Grey (13:40):
It's helpful that we have different definitions of
down to the fact that it's work,you know, like, you know, sex
work is work. So yeah, it'slike, you know, we're all leav
ng to go to work, and just, we'rdoing different things. So yeah
intimacy. And those values don'tstrictly rely on, solely on sex.
You know, we find other ways tobe intimate with each other,
(14:03):
like, like cooking for eachother and like spending personal
time together, that are just as,if not more meaningful, and and
it means that we're not placingthe values of our relationship
on the backbone of oneinsignificant construct.
Jenna Love (14:17):
Alice could I ask, have you ever felt pressure
either internally or externallyto not pursue monogamy as a sex
worker?
Alice Grey (14:24):
Yeah, yeah. When that first relationship ended, I
had this impression that I wasnever going to be able to have a
monogamous relationship as a sexworker. And so I thought, maybe
I need to explore being 'open'or being 'poly' and so I dated
some people who were in open andpoly relationships, but I just
(14:46):
found that I got really jealous,sharing other people intimately
and it wasn't about the sex. Itwas about the the emotional
connection and I wanted to havemy partner there with me for me,
and I didn't want to have toshare them with anybody else.
Holly Harte (15:01):
Alice, have you had any awkward reactions from
clients when you came out aboutbeing in a relationship?
Alice Grey (15:07):
I think once again, I've had a really broad spectrum
of responses to speaking aboutmy relationships, or my
relationship, with my clients.
There have been a few clientswho have developed feelings,
romantic feelings for me, whichis lovely and beautiful. And I
feel very flattered. Theyhaven't responded well to the
idea of me being in arelationship. So unfortunately,
(15:28):
those those people are no longermy clients. But generally, the
response has been really niceand supportive. Many of the
couples that I see think it'sfantastic, and we sort of trade,
you know, random coupleanecdotes. But no, it's been
mostly lovely.
Jenna Love (15:47):
I'm thinking about this for myself, because I was
in a relationship when I enteredthe industry, there's got to be
a thought process about, when doyou, like when do you know, it's
serious enough that you decideto be open with your clients? Is
that a factor?
Alice Grey (16:03):
Yeah, that is really interesting, I think when, I
feel more able to speak freelyabout my relationship with
clients who are in relationshipsthemselves, and so we can just
very comfortably share stories,and that's fine. But when it
comes to actually having to seta boundary when maybe navigating
a client's feelings, that can bea little bit awkward, and if
(16:26):
you're not at a stage where youfeel that your relationship is
sort of serious enough todisclose, but that's something
that you want to mention, it canit can be tough, but that's
okay, you just put your big girlpants on and we do our best.
Jenna Love (16:39):
So have you guys faced any challenges as a couple
relating to your work? And ifso, how have you managed to
overcome them?
Mr G (16:46):
I think the sort of the biggest challenges for us have
been sort of any in anyrelationship, there's, you know,
issues around work and hours andthat sort of balancing, you
know, the time out, you know,spent working especially in an
industry such as sex work whereyou know, it's not a nine to
five, it's, you know, there'sovernights, long bookings, short
(17:07):
bookings, you know, touring, allthat kind of stuff. So it's
mostly around that, you know,it's like, you know, in between
lockdowns when Alice goes, youknow, is trying to reclaim some,
get some cash back, you know, soshe's, she's out there working
pretty hard. And it's kind oflike, 'Hello, I'm here as well'.
But at the same time, you know,there's been, you know, some
(17:29):
days where I've put in some longhours as well. So it's just sort
of balancing that andunderstanding that sometimes,
you know, you got to put thepedal to the metal a bit and
work a little bit harder. Andone of the positive sides of the
pandemic is, you know, we've gotto spend a lot more time
together because of that,
Alice Grey (17:44):
It has been lovely.
Mr G (17:44):
Yeah. I think that's been the biggest issue for me.
Jenna Love (17:49):
I think that that's probably similar to the
experience of anybody in apartnership with somebody who
runs their own business to anextent.
Alice Grey (17:57):
Definitely
Mr G (17:57):
Yeah, 100%
Jenna Love (17:58):
You know, it's sort of a 24/7 gig.
Alice Grey (18:00):
I have very similar feelings about it. And I've
noticed that, you know, as Itook on that role in hospitality
between lockdowns when wecouldn't quite do sex work, but
I (18:09):
keep me occupied and B
navigating two different workingstyles. But as Greg said, it's
been beautiful to have this timetogether during lockdown, one of
the silver linings is that weget this time. So I'm certainly
grateful for it. And a funnykind of complication is that I
get really excited if I thinkthat a client of mine might be,
(18:32):
you know, a celebrity or someonecool or interesting, and I want
to talk about it. But we haveset firm boundaries around not
discussing who my clients are,or what they do, or what we do
together. And so sometimes Gregwill need to remind me, 'Hey, I
don't wanna know.' And I willjust, I'll get so excited, I
(18:53):
wanna talk about this coolperson that I've met, but I
can't!
Jenna Love (18:59):
That's so interesting, because I tell Mr.
Love everything. So are you ableto elaborate more on those
boundaries?
Mr G (19:05):
Yeah, it just comes down to specifics really, like I'm
happy to talk about work andlike, I'm aware of what sex work
entails. It's more just like, Idon't really want to know the
specifics. Like, I don't reallywant to know who they are, don't
really want to know, like, aslong as Alice is, you know, the
booking went well, she had agood time, you know, she got
paid and like, that's great.
Happy to talk about sort of,maybe things that didn't go so
(19:28):
well. If she wants to ventthat's that's fine. But yeah,
just sort of the specifics. It'sjust like, you know, what, just
don't, not really, not reallyinterested in knowing and I
think it's, I couldn'trationalise why that is, but
it's just something which sortof makes us feel, it makes me
feel a bit more comfortable, Iguess.
Holly Harte (19:47):
It's very healthy to have boundaries in any
relationship. It's sensible,regardless of what your
partner's job is. And regardlessof what those boundaries
surround and you just find, oridentify places that you feel
you can you know, make yourselffeel a little bit more
comfortable and that's reallyhealthy and the fact that you
can communicate that with eachother is also really nice.
Jenna Love (20:05):
I also think that would be quite common and
necessary in a lot ofrelationships where one partner
is say working in the medicalfield or working in law or
something where confidentialityis you know really important so
it's not all that unusual.
Mr G (20:18):
Yeah for sure
Holly Harte (20:19):
Or for like, international spies.
Jenna Love (20:20):
Them too.
Alice Grey (20:21):
Absolutely, absolutely, I've always wanted
to be an international spy, soGreg, this is great training
Jenna Love (20:27):
Maybe you are, maybe sex work is just your cover. He
wouldn't know!
Alice Grey (20:30):
Hey! It would be an excellent cover.
Mr G (20:33):
Oh man, layers. Jesus.
Alice Grey (20:35):
Greg made a really good analogy once, saying, so he
was working in a hospitalityadjacent field and was saying
'Look Alice, you really wouldn'tbe interested in the ins and
outs of my day-to-day so I'm notgonna share them with you'. And
I went 'Actually that's a reallygood point it'd be really
fucking boring' so I get it anddon't feel bad that I can'
(20:56):
share the the ins and outs of mmy bookings with h
Jenna Love (21:02):
You can just share them with us instead.
Alice Grey (21:03):
Yay!
Holly Harte (21:05):
We have some questions that our patrons have
submitted very kindly, they'revery interested to know some
more about you both. Mr. G, haveyou ever met any escorts before
Alice, that you know of?
Mr G (21:17):
Not to my knowledge! One thing I have realised since
being in relationship with Aliceis that if you're like, a
face-in worker like yougenerally are very very good at
you know, keeping that underwraps so very potentially, but
not to my knowledge.
Alice Grey (21:33):
Stigma it's a shit hey
Mr G (21:34):
I have met many more since dating Alice now.
Holly Harte (21:37):
Now you know. You go 'Oh!' you know, you may not
have known before, all the oneswho are meeting.
Alice Grey (21:42):
This makes me think that the hardest part of dating
a sex worker is is keeping upwith the amount of names that
their friends have.
Mr G (21:49):
100% 100%.
Jenna Love (21:52):
Okay, this is a big question from a patron, Alice
has sex work ever given youinteresting insights that are
related to your scientificpursuits, or vice versa?
Alice Grey (22:03):
Interesting. Do you know what, my experiences with
clients have have led me topursue the career that I'm
currently pursuing. I amcurrently studying a
postgraduate degree inpsychology purely because I love
my interactions with my clientsand I find it so interesting to
A (22:21):
learn about their lives and B
journeys that they otherwisewouldn't have embarked on. And
yeah, so that's, I don't reallywant to disclose specifically
where I would like to end up butyeah, that definitely led me
into this journey so thank youto all of my beautiful clients
for helping me find somethingthat I'm really passionate
(22:43):
about.
Holly Harte (22:44):
Wow, so before that, that wasn't something that
you were strongly considering,it was you had other life, you
know, goals and decisions. Andthat grew with the relationship
with your clients.
Alice Grey (22:54):
Yeah, definitely. I, fresh out of high school, I
embarked on a really long degreein biomedicine, had a background
in genetics and musculardystrophy, I thought I was going
to be a doctor did all of thethesis writing and battles with
a supervisor only to get to theend of it and go wow, I hate
(23:15):
this. What am I gonna do now?
Yeah, so I took a year off tosort of collect my thoughts and
was reflecting on my time in theindustry and realised that there
are just so many transferableskills that people don't realise
we have. Sex workers generallyhave so much compassion and
empathy for their clients and Ithink that we could really
utilise that in the world
Holly Harte (23:37):
Question for Mr. G.
What first attracted you toAlice?
Mr G (23:43):
I thought she was physically very attractive you
know that that gives you the theswipe right on tinder
Alice Grey (23:47):
That's such a diplomatic way to put it
Holly Harte (23:51):
She was a babe!
Mr G (23:52):
But it was more like, the bio like it was, there was a lot
going on, like a person who hada lot of interests and obviously
was very intelligent. So yeah, acombination of those two I
think. And just like, the theconversation was like
immediately very engaging wewere having a great chat from
the get-go. And yeah it's justlike one of those times where
you're like oh yeah cool this isthis is this is great you know
(24:13):
just from the get go. It wasn'tlike a, like a slow build or
anything like that. I mean, likeour first date, our first date
like you know, we were justmeeting for coffee and we went
and got some drinks and we'rejust like this you know, ended
up being this like
Alice Grey (24:23):
Four hours later
Mr G (24:24):
A huge huge date on the Sunday kind of thing.
Jenna Love (24:27):
Love that. So Alice, same question for you. What
first attracted you to him?
Alice Grey (24:32):
Oh my god. I am a snob and I love the fact that he
had a professional photo as hisTinder bio picture. I was so
sick of scrolling throughlike...
Mr G (24:46):
Fish pics!
Alice Grey (24:47):
Terrible selfies...
yeah!
Mr G (24:49):
So many fish pics.
Alice Grey (24:51):
So many fish pics.
The yeah, the only things thatreally interested me on Tinder
were A (24:54):
pictures of people's pets and nice photos. So it was
it was definitely this beautifulprofile picture and let's be
honest, I'm a sucker for abearded man.
Jenna Love (25:06):
I... a photo of fish would dry me the fuck up. I
cannot ...why are you showing mea fish? Ugh
Holly Harte (25:17):
Yeah the most common things that I see on
Tinder when I do bother to go onthe awful app is guys, like
holding dead fish or a whole lotof dead fish and they're like
look what I 'look at me, thehunter! I provide for you'.
Jenna Love (25:29):
No! Why are you holding a dead fucking animal?
Alice Grey (25:32):
It's not sexy.
Holly Harte (25:33):
Second one is them sticking their finger up in the
photo like in some sort ofedgy... who looks at that and
goes 'that's hot'?
Jenna Love (25:39):
I don't like dating 12 year olds sorry.
Alice Grey (25:42):
Not attracted to edgelords, guys. Sorry.
Holly Harte (25:44):
Yeah, and then and then the other one is them, with
just a picture of their car. AndI'm like, never have I seen a
picture of a car and gone 'Iwant to date a guy because of
the car he drives'.
Alice Grey (25:53):
Yeah, yeah. Car pictures are really common!
Holly Harte (25:56):
I love my car. I'm proud of my car. I really enjoy
it. But I don't use it as adating thing. Like
Mr G (26:01):
Look at the things I have, it's like ah, from, which, which
Avengers movie like, 'Behold, mystuff!' Yeah, I have a friend
who's, she's going through theinternet dating kind of perils
as someone in her late 30s andjust some of the some of the
(26:22):
shit she she shares with us justlike, like you said, like, guys
like throwing up gang signs andlike middle fingers and fishing
and drugged tigers in Bali andstuff and yeah, it's kind of
wild.
Holly Harte (26:34):
Oh, yeah. The Tigers. Yeah.
Jenna Love (26:36):
Who told them that women want that? Who told them
that?
Mr G (26:39):
This is the the thing like this, like no one's told them,
they're just kind of like, well,I like this picture then,
therefore a woman must love thispicture you know.
Holly Harte (26:47):
A male gaze thing, isn't it?
Mr G (26:48):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's probably it.
Holly Harte (26:50):
Looking at it through a bloke's eyes. This is
what I think's cool. Not 'Whatwould a woman find attractive?'
Jenna Love (26:54):
The fourth category is photos where they look like
serial killers? And they'relike... Why are you so angry?
That's not appealing. I don't, Idon't want to be attacked by
you.
Alice Grey (27:04):
I think they're trying to be moody.
Jenna Love (27:06):
Yeah, broody, but like, I want somebody who's
emotionally on top of theirshit.
Alice Grey (27:12):
One of us has to be in this relationship. And it's
not me.
Jenna Love (27:21):
You need to represent stability, because
that's not, I'm not delivering.
Holly Harte (27:26):
Alice, what advice would you give to sex workers
who are dating or looking for arelationship in general?
Alice Grey (27:31):
Oh gosh, this is so close to my heart. Firstly, I
think that it's important toremember that we shouldn't be
defined by our sexual pasts orpreferences. Broader society
likes to teach us that we areunworthy of love if we lead
sexually rich lives. And that'sjust not the case. We are all
worthy of love, respect andkindness. Secondly, I think that
(27:55):
personal boundaries are reallyimportant. And it is equally
important not to compromise onthose. Don't let other guys try
and tell you how you run yourbusiness or live your life. Live
your life for yourself, and theright person will come along to
join you.
Mr G (28:12):
It goes back to like enthusiastic, especially
especially with internet dating.
Like it goes back toenthusiastic consent. Like if
it's not a fuck yes, it's a no.
If it's not someone who's like,hell yeah. Don't waste your
time, you know, you've gotbetter things to do.
Alice Grey (28:25):
Don't think that you can change the guy who says that
he tolerates your job.
Jenna Love (28:30):
Yeah, somebody who tolerates you or accepts you,
it's just not, it's not a highenough standard, soz.
Alice Grey (28:35):
No, it's not, it's not good enough. You deserve to
be cherished and supported andlifted up by the person that you
love. A really lovely friend ofmine by the name of Georgie
Wolf, runs a blog called The Artof the Hookup. And a part of
that is teaching people how todate online during the pandemic,
(28:56):
and how to interact with peopleand maybe begin relationships or
just communicate. So for hottips, go support that amazing
human because they areexcellent.
Jenna Love (29:08):
And they've just started up a new podcast called
The Satisfaction Project, whichis related to that and is worth
checking out too.
Mr G (29:16):
Just to go off on that, like, we moved in together ah,
the February before thepandemic, like really kicked
off. So we had like, two orthree months experience of us
like living together and then itwas like, well, you know, get
used to it. But yeah, like Ithink if we were by ourselves,
like I would certainly be abasket case right now.
Alice Grey (29:38):
Definitely, definitely.
Jenna Love (29:39):
Like you Holly.
Like, you know the basket casethat you are? That's what he
would be like.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday, Alice and Mr. G. It's
Holly Harte (29:43):
Like I am, I am a basket case, yeah I know.
Thank you so much, so much forhaving us.
been a pleasure having you onthe show. Really interesting to
hear your perspectives. I thinkwe've got a lot of really
fascinating insights from youboth today and we feel very
Mr G (29:52):
Thank you for having us privileged
Jenna Love (30:00):
Bye Bye! Do you miss the free and
affordable ads and socialnetworks without all of the anti
sex rhetoric?
Holly Harte (30:14):
Assembly Four is a team of sex workers and
technologists from Melbourne,Australia, aiming to bring back
free and fair advertising andsocial spaces to the sex working
community.
Jenna Love (30:23):
Stepping away from the clunky design of traditional
platforms, their two productsTryst.link and Switter.at are
refreshing and well neededchanges in both presentation and
mission.
Holly Harte (30:35):
And both are free to join and open to all.
Jenna Love (30:38):
You can find both of our profiles on Tryst and I love
how it is so clearly designed bysex workers.
Holly Harte (30:44):
Yep. And I love how straightforward and easy it is
to use and how much they clearlysupport the sex working
community.
Jenna Love (30:50):
And also how responsive they are when it
comes to feedback and customerservice.
Holly Harte (30:54):
Check out their website assemblyfour.com, four
the word, not the number, formore info.
Question of the week. This year,I met a sex worker at a brothel
and we had an amazing firstsession, I started seeing her
(31:16):
regularly aside from periods oflockdown. Over the course of our
sessions, I've gotten to knowher better, and I am feeling a
very strong connection to herbecause of our shared interests,
sense of humour, discussions,and of course, great sexual
compatibility. She often tellsme how I am attractive to her,
gives me compliments, doesthings and makes allowances for
(31:37):
me that she doesn't offer otherclients. Following this, she has
recently given me her email inorder to make a private booking
with her outside of the brothel.
And we have been chatting onsocial media too. I've got the
feels for her big time andgenuinely want to be more than a
client. I'm not sure how toapproach this as I want to ask
her out. But at the same time,I'm aware that part of her job
(31:57):
is to provide the fantasy of alover. I'm scared to tell her
how I feel because I'm worriedshe might not feel the same. And
I'd have to stop seeing herbecause of my strong feelings.
How should I let her know thatI'm interested in more. After or
before booking, via email,message? I don't know what to
do, please help?
Jenna Love (32:16):
My answer is that you don't. I'm somebody who has,
I've dated three clients. I amnot opposed to the idea of
dating clients. I don't thinkthat there should be necessarily
this big 'You cannot dateclients'. I mean, we we meet
people in the workplace,sometimes. We all do. And I
think that's totally fair, eventhough there are some sex
workers who have that hard linefor themselves, which is fair.
(32:39):
In my opinion, if it is going tohappen, it has to come from the
worker. And that's what happenedto me every single time. Those
three times that I datedsomebody who I'd met as a
client, I said, 'Hey, do youwant to maybe like not pay me
'or, you know, whatever. I hadto to initiate it. And all three
(33:01):
of them at first didn't want todo that. They were like, 'Oh,
no, no, no, I'm paying for yourtime. This is...' you know, and
they they pushed back. And in myopinion, that is how it has to
be. I mean, you don't have tonecessarily push back. You can
just say, 'Yeah, fuck yeah,let's go for it'. Because the
thing is, and it's not alwaysgoing to be this way. But the
status quo is that we knowyou're into us, right? I don't
(33:24):
want to be too brutal about it.
But you're paying to spend timewith us. So we've got this
baseline of, well, you you atleast find us attractive in some
way, you enjoy, you keep comingback. So we've already got that.
And that puts us in the positionto be able to say, look, I think
that this relationship couldbecome something else. I don't
think that the client is in theposition to say that, because
(33:46):
you honestly don't really havean idea of how we are feeling.
And I don't want to I don't knowthis worker. I don't know the
people involved in thissituation. But the fact that you
have shared interests, that youhave great sexual compatibility,
that she does things for youthat she won't allow other
clients to do. You don't knowany of that. The reality is, she
(34:07):
might say to every singleclient, 'oh, I don't let anyone
else do this' like that, and,you know, I'm not suggesting
that that is what she does, butshe might. Sexual compatibility,
shared sense of humour, sharedinterests, those are all things
we're really good at doing.
That's our job. You know, Imean, I have clients who I think
(34:28):
have such a lame sense ofhumour, but I lean into it and I
laugh at their jokes, and I'llmake the same kinds of jokes,
because I'm creating a rapportand I'm giving them a nice time.
So it's really really hard toknow if you're not getting
anything from her. So my answeris not that it can't be
something else. But if it isgoing to be something else, it
(34:50):
has to, has to, has to, has tocome from her. And if it comes
from you, I don't think it willend well.
Holly Harte (34:57):
I'm going to go the entire 180 degree other way, I'm
sorry, I'm sorry to the listenerwho's asked this question,
because you're gonna get twodifferent opinions. But I
entirely disagree. I think it'sa really difficult situation,
obviously. Because as Jennasaid, we really try to make
things comfortable for you. AndI adore a lot of my clients,
(35:19):
does that mean that I want totake it further, almost
always... probably not. I'm veryhappy in my independence, and I
don't really need anyone. Istill adore my clients as
friends. And you know, I careabout them, and I enjoy our sex,
blah, blah, blah. But it's avery rare occasion when I do
meet somebody where I would wantto take it to the next level.
(35:41):
That being said, when Jenna saidthat, we know you're attracted
to us, that's very different.
Knowing that you want to fuckme, than knowing that you want
to be with me, and that youwould like to pursue something
more. So I would never presumethat a client would want to date
me, even if I wanted to datethem. I don't think I would feel
(36:02):
comfortable to tell a client, myfeelings, but I also, that's
something I personally strugglewith. I don't think I've ever
been able to tell anyone thatI've had feelings for them until
they've told me because I'mterrified of making myself
vulnerable and being rejected.
So like, fuck, that's hard. Idon't know. I think I prefer if
(36:25):
clients are feeling like they'restarting to cross boundaries
emotionally, and they'restarting to feel like they are
getting feelings for me, Iprefer they do let me know. I
think it's, you know, there'ssuch a big spectrum of feelings.
If you feel like, you just get alittle bit of a flutter when
you're together. So cool. If youfeel like it's like a healthy
little crush, that you just getto thrill when we chat. Cool,
(36:46):
that's all fine. But if you'restarting to feel like it's
affecting you emotionally, oryou're not able to make
appropriate decisions, when youspend money seeing me or you're
putting yourself in dodgypositions, then it's probably
best that you let me know. Sothat I can then draw appropriate
lines in the sand and say, maybeyou need to take a little bit of
a break, cool things down a bit.
Or maybe you need to findsomeone else because this is not
(37:07):
something that I can ethicallytake part in. So gosh, it's
complicated. Personally, if aclient is getting feelings for
me, I want to know, if theythink that it's a concern. And
you know, gosh, it's such a hardthing, because I have met
clients that I would date, but Idon't think they would date me.
(37:28):
So do you tell her, do you not?
Jenna Love (37:31):
Yeah but I think they would. And I think that
that is just you not seeing whatother people see in you.
Holly Harte (37:41):
I disagree. So it's, it's, this is a really
difficult one to answer.
Because, look, I'll tell you, myinstinct is that probably not.
Probably, she's not into you.
And that's really, really rough,being very blunt. But the odds
are, she's just doing her job.
And she's really good at it.
Jenna Love (37:56):
Or she may be into you, but isn't interested in
having a full on relationship.
Holly Harte (38:01):
Well yeah, she may very well enjoy you as a person.
But yeah, she may not want whatyou want. I don't think there is
harm, in my opinion inexpressing how you feel. But you
do have to be prepared that ifyou do that, she says 'I can't
see you anymore'. That's that'show it goes.
Jenna Love (38:17):
Yeah, that's very true. I mean, you can go ahead
with it. But you have to knowthat it might end it.
Holly Harte (38:23):
But it could be a romantic love story as well. So
this is just the hardestquestion ever. And I don't have
an answer for you. Because I'mwaiting for my own Prince
Charming. In this situation, Ithink it would be best to say
something to the worker, like,'Obviously, I'm really happy
with how things are going, Ilove seeing you in the dynamic
that we have now. But if therewas ever room or space in your
(38:45):
life, or you had any interest inus taking things to a different
level, or doing, seeing eachother in a civilian or a
romantic sense, then I would beopen to that. Obviously, I'm not
pushing for that. And I'm reallyhappy to continue as a client
and how things are now. That'sgreat. But I just want you to
know that if that was ever aconsideration, that that's
something I'm open to'. I thinkthat for me is, is sort of
(39:08):
straddling the line. So you'remaking it really clear to that
worker, that that's an option,if that is something that she
feels, and if not, that you'renot the sort of person who is
wanting to cross boundaries, ifand that you're not hingeing the
whole client/provider dynamic onwhether or not she says yes or
no. That you are happy. And andI would say also, don't say that
(39:28):
if that's not how you feel, ifyou really don't think you can
continue to be a client if shedoesn't want to date you, then
then be honest and say, tell herthe truth because there's no
point in just ripping your heartout by pretending that it's okay
and making her uncomfortable.
But I do believe that it is niceto be honest and to take, shoot
your shot and take a chance. AsI said before, don't expect that
(39:49):
it will go 100% well, but yeah,I think communication is
important.
Jenna Love (40:00):
It's now time for us to thank our wonderful patrons
for their generous and continuedsupport of the show. Without
you, we would not be able todedicate the amount of time and
energy that we currently do, andwe are endlessly grateful for
your support.
Holly Harte (40:13):
This week we have a new Giving Somebody which is
John, our new GenerousSomebodies are Nathan and
Clayton. And we have a new VeryGenerous Somebody which is
Olivia
Jenna Love (40:24):
Our Even More Generous Somebodies are Timmy
Andrew, Adam Smith, Le, Lachlan, Sub London, Mis
Billy, Nora Knightley, LeslieScott Watson, Andrew, Big M, Ou
Secret Admirer, Mudgee, Margareand Weezy
Holly Harte (40:43):
And our Extre ely Generous Somebodies are A
ron, Samuel, Andrew, Pete. Thodore Betts The First Esquire
and the incredible Amanda Valen
Jenna Love (40:55):
Thank you so much for listening yet again. We look
forward to catching you nextweek. Please look out for us on
Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,and Patreon. Our name everywhere
is Somebody You Pod as inpodcast. Our Patreon starts
t just $3 a month, and you can gt all of our episodes ad free a
(41:16):
d a day early. Plus bonus episods, behind the scenes acti
n, bloopers and more. Thank youor taking the time to listen to
he voices of sex workers.
nd remember, Somebody You Lve might just be a sex work
COVID-19 has had a significant impact on the sex
industry. And snap lock downsand travel restrictions mean
that there are times when sexworkers require emergency
financial relief in order forthem and their dependents to
stay safe housed and fed.
Holly Harte (00:16):
Sex workers don't get sick or holiday pay and many
have no savings to fall back on.
The stigma and discriminationthat we face means that some
have no proof of earnings toaccess government support. And
of course, migrant workers areoften forgotten.
Jenna Love (00:28):
Scarlet Alliance and their state and territory member
organisations joined together tocreate an ongoing fund that is
hosted on the website chuffedthat's c-h-u-f-f-e-d.
Holly Harte (00:39):
Donations are tax deductible. 100% of funds raised
go directly to sex workers inneed. And most weeks the amount
of people apply outweigh theamount of funds raised and sadly
people have to be turned away.
The link to this fund is in ourshow notes.
Jenna Love (00:56):
Welcome to Somebody You Love, or the sale of two
titties. I'm Jenna Love.
Holly Harte (01:04):
And I'm Holly Harte.
Jenna Love (01:06):
And we're experts in disappointing our parents,
breaching community guidelinesand banging the people who vote
against our rights.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back tothe show. First up, we would
like to acknowledge thetraditional owners of the land
on which we are recording. I'mon Darug and Gundungurra land,
Holly is on Ngunnawal land andour guests today are calling in
(01:28):
from the land of the Wurundjeripeople of the Kulin nation, we
pay our respects to elders pastand present, and to the
continuation of the cultural,spiritual and educational
practices of Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander peoples.
Holly Harte (01:42):
In case it's not already obvious, we'd like to
remind you that this is an adultpodcast about adult things. We
talk about sex, and we talkabout sex work. So if that's not
your jam, now's the time to goand do something far less
interesting.
Jenna Love (01:55):
Now, today's episode is alarmingly blinding. And it's
whiteness. And it's also prettypretty cisgendered. And I'm
pretty heterosexual. So we needto stress that that is not
reflective of the diversity ofthe sex industry. It has always
been the goal of the SomebodyYou Love team to be able to give
a platform to as wide a range ofsex workers as possible. And
(02:16):
that is something that wecontinue to be committed to
achieving. But we also know thatit's not something that we can
do all at once and immediatelystraight out of the gate. If
you're interested in being aguest on the show, or if you
know somebody who might be,please go to
somebodyyoulove.net/guests.
Holly Harte (02:35):
Today we are speaking to The Alice Great.
Alice is a full service providerand internet sweetie based in
Melbourne, Australia. She is alover of intricate lingerie and
rich red wine, cosy restaurantsand couch cuddles. Alice has
also brought along her partnerwho we will be calling Mr. G. No
relation to Chris Lilley, forour Aussie listeners. They've
(02:57):
been together for two and a halfyears and we thought they were
the perfect way to follow uplast week's episode on
relationships as sex workers.
Jenna Love (03:05):
So hi Alice and hi, Mr. G.
Holly Harte (03:09):
Welcome.
Alice Grey (03:10):
Hey, friends.
Mr G (03:11):
Hey, thanks for having us on.
Jenna Love (03:12):
So let's get stuck into questions, shall we?
Alice Grey (03:15):
Let's do it.
Jenna Love (03:16):
My first question is for Alice. How did you two meet?
Alice Grey (03:22):
We met on Tinder it's, it's very, it was very
cute. I was on Tinder for thewhole of like, 48 hours
scrolling through profiles,deciding that I hated life and
hated Tinder. And yeah, I cameacross my dude. And it's been
great.
Jenna Love (03:43):
So was that your first time on Tinder?
Alice Grey (03:45):
No, it was my second. But it was very similar.
It's just not a, it's not a wayof meeting people that comes
naturally to me. We live in thisworld that thrives online. And
so when you sit across fromsomeone in a cafe or on public
transport, and try and strike upa conversation, they think
you're crazy. So it was, it wasalways really awkward. And yeah,
(04:08):
just not something that I wantedto spend a lot of time doing.
But I was lucky to find someoneamazing. In a very short amount
of time.
Holly Harte (04:15):
I can also concur that Tinder is a dumpster fire.
So it's very good when youstrike gold.
Jenna Love (04:21):
Yeah, nice success story.
Holly Harte (04:23):
Question for Alice.
How did you tell Mr. Grey aboutyour line of work?
Alice Grey (04:27):
Oh, man, I put it in my Tinder bio. But
unfortunately, dating apps don'tlike sex workers. And so I had
it in there that I was a smallbusiness owner for a number of
years. And naturally, peoplewere sort of curious to go, 'Oh,
okay, well, what does thatmean?' And that would be a nice
segue. But I knew that it wassomething that I wanted to bring
(04:49):
up as early as I possibly could.
Holly Harte (04:51):
And so how did you go about that?
Alice Grey (04:53):
I think, I think I was headed to a booking and Greg
asked me where, what I did orwhere I was going. And I
mentioned that I was a sexworker. And it was really, it
was just a bit of a nothingconversation really, it was
quite natural. And I suppose wewere talking through a text
based medium. So it all lookedvery calm, but internally, I was
(05:14):
freaking out.
Mr G (05:15):
It was one of the one of the, yeah, one of the first
things, like it was sort of,'Hey, how are you?' You know, a
few other pleasantries, and thenI think it was something along
the lines of like, 'I'm justheading off to work. So I might
not be able to talk for a bit'.
And I was like, 'Oh, cool. Sosmall business, kind of thing.
Like what does that involve?'And like, straight up straight
up, like 'I'm, I'm a fullservice sex worker'. And it's
like, 'Oh, okay, cool'.
Jenna Love (05:37):
So how did you react to that? Is that something that
you had any experience with? Didyou know what a full service sex
worker was?
Mr G (05:45):
I'd never heard that term before. But like it's kind of
pretty, pretty obvious. It's allin the name there.
Alice Grey (05:51):
There is a lot of jargon in our industry.
Mr G (05:53):
But no, it's like, it like obvious like, alright, cool. I
guess I was shocked. Not inlike, 'Oh, my god' kind of
sense. But like, to myknowledge, I've never met a sex
worker before. So I was like,okay, cool. But yeah, like there
was definitely like a vibehappening. So I think one of the
first things I did after thatwas like, I think I googled
like, 'Relationship with sexworkers' or something like that.
(06:16):
Like I didn't really know how tofeel like, then yeah, I was just
kind of like, sort of, you know,see what the internet kind of
thinks.
Jenna Love (06:23):
Good thing you didn't ask Reddit because they
would have just told you to, tocancel it. Throw her in the bin.
Mr G (06:27):
Yeah, yeah, Reddit's, you know, it's all over the shop,
depending on which subreddit yougo to. But yeah, I think I think
I found like it was a forum orlike, maybe a blog post or
something. And it was like,ultimately, it boils down to,
it's just a job. And I was like,well, that makes a lot of sense.
Holly Harte (06:43):
Alice do you ever have any concerns about what Mr.
Grey's family thinks? Or ifpeople he knows, recognise you?
Alice Grey (06:50):
Those are two very separate questions. I think, you
know, when you're in arelationship with someone, you
do want validation from theirfamily, you want them to like
you, right? Otherwise, you know,Christmas celebrations will be
very awkward. So, given thatGreg's family, are a little bit
more on the conservative side,yes, I am, and we are, a little
bit hesitant to tell them andhave made the decision not to
(07:14):
share my work with them. Whichis a difficult decision in and
of itself. And as for peoplerecognising me, well, I'm
virtually open about my workwith most people in my life
aside from my own parents, andGreg's parents so if someone
were to recognise me and have aproblem with that then I think
that's on them
Jenna Love (07:35):
Perfectly answered.
If it's not going to out you,can you tell us what his and
your parents think that you do?
Alice Grey (07:42):
Well I have a history of work in research so
they think that I'm stillworking there.
Jenna Love (07:47):
It's always good when it's partially true when
there's I, you know, my coverstory was makeup artist for a
long time because I was trainedas a makeup artist, so I could,
you know, it was easy to keep itgoing. Yeah.
Alice Grey (07:58):
For sure. And with the pandemic, unfortunately a
lot of research roles ended, somany people have become
unemployed. I have since foundemployment in hospitality, which
I love but doesn't really bodewell in lockdown. So everyone
knows that I'm unemployed at themoment, which is fine.
Jenna Love (08:17):
Alrighty, Mr. G. So, have you had any negative
comments or bizarre assumptionsthat have come from people who
know what your partner does as ajob?
Mr G (08:26):
No, so it's pretty ,it's like Alice's family doesn't
know, so my family don't know, Ikind of keep it like sort of two
layers so like, the people closeto me, my my close friends know.
And then anyone sort of outsideof that it's ah, Alice is a
student. And she doeshospitality work which is true.
Yeah, and for most like, thinklike 99% of the responses are
(08:49):
either positive or kind ofinquisitive. But I've never had
anyone like straight up have anegative response to that which
is, which is kind of good and itsort of reflects on the people
I've chosen to keep close likethe people you know, I enjoy
spending time with they're allgood people and I think for the
most part like that reflects intheir response really.
Alice Grey (09:06):
I think that equally reflects upon you my dude.
Mr G (09:09):
Aw thank you.
Jenna Love (09:10):
Aww they're so in love.
Alice Grey (09:12):
We're adorable.
Holly Harte (09:16):
Alice, were you dating much before you met Mr.
Grey? And like what was yourdating experience like as a sex
worker, before you found thisbeautiful relationship?
Alice Grey (09:26):
I feel like I had a really broad spectrum of
experiences in dating. But I amalso a serial monogamist. So my
first long term relationshipwhile I was also a sex worker,
was really complex and dramatic.
I actually hid my job from thatpartner for a really, really
long time. And it's certainly
n (09:47):
advise or B
heart and I broke my own heart.
It was terrible, and I sworethat I was never, ever gonna
hide my job again. But it alsoleft me feeling that I was not
worthy of love or finding arelationship being a sex worker.
(10:08):
That sucked. But the nextrelationship that I walked into,
that was an interesting one. Andunfortunately, that became
abusive. I thought that I was, Ithought that I was loved and
appreciated by this person, justbecause they were willing to
tolerate my job when that wasnot the case. And that person
decided that they wanted to beable to manipulate the way that
(10:30):
I was doing my job, and who Iwas, what I could do. So yeah,
that that ended prettydramatically as well. But then I
had a substantial amount of timeby myself and did some work on
myself, established personalboundaries, and also some you
know, self love and selfrespect. And I think that that,
in and of itself is what enabledme to, to have such a happy and
(10:53):
successful relationship that Ihave now.
Jenna Love (10:55):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. That's, well
it's not great to hear that youhad some not so great
experiences, but I think that alot of people listening can
relate. And yeah, it's notalways an easy road dating as a
sex worker, it just isn't.
Alice Grey (11:09):
No, it's not, unfortunately, yeah, there are
people out there who who see usas a bit of a commodity to
profit from or to control andmake work for them. Some people
fetishize us and others thinkthat it's just sexy until it's
not, and then they don't havethe skills to handle it when
it's not. And this is somethingthat many of us go through every
(11:33):
single day.
Jenna Love (11:34):
And that, it sounds like with the second partner
that you spoke about, that yousort of, initially, it seemed as
though everything was fine. Andhe was completely okay with your
work, but then obviously hadvery strong opinions about what
your work actually entailed. SoI guess it's the the difficulty
in, when somebody says, 'Yeah,no worries', it's working out
(11:55):
whether that is reallyreflective of what's inside.
Alice Grey (11:58):
Definitely, I think it just speaks to a lack of
broader understanding of whatsex work actually is. And
people's experiences with it, Ithink that most guys think of
sex work as you know, going tothe strippers or maybe going to
a brothel. And, you know, it allsounds like a lot of fun at the
beginning. But then when they'reactually faced with that, on an
intimate level, not many havethe experience or the knowledge
(12:20):
to to work with it, particularlyin an intimate setting.
Jenna Love (12:23):
So something we hear a lot is that there's this
assumption that as a sex worker,if you're in a relationship with
somebody, that it must be somekind of open or non-monogamous
relationship. So Mr.G what areyour thoughts on being
monogamous, when Alice isobviously intimate with her
clients?
Mr G (12:40):
I think it's just like, ultimately, the framework comes
down to the fact that she'shaving sex with people in a, in
a workplace context, like, justthe same, like if I was dating a
chef, like, how could I be mad,that they're going out and
cooking food for other people?
Like, you know, that's like,it's a job, you know, like, we
we're all, we're all in thissort of thing, together, this
(13:00):
system where like, we have to doyou know, things for money to
exist in this society. So yeah,it's just in this context, it's,
it's, you know, sex and sexassociated things. So I think
like, at the end of the day,it's like, alright, cool, you
know, we all leave home and dosomething, but at the end of the
day, you know, we both cometogether, and we spend time
(13:22):
together outside of thatworkplace, you know, context.
So, like, I'm not gonna get madat an accountant, because, you
know, they're off, you know,doing someone else's accounting
stuff...
Alice Grey (13:34):
It's funny that you call us accountants (laughs)
Jenna Love (13:37):
Yeah, good analogy
Mr G (13:39):
Yeah, yeah. That's, like, yeah, ultimately, it just boils
Alice Grey (13:40):
It's helpful that we have different definitions of
down to the fact that it's work,you know, like, you know, sex
work is work. So yeah, it'slike, you know, we're all leav
ng to go to work, and just, we'rdoing different things. So yeah
intimacy. And those values don'tstrictly rely on, solely on sex.
You know, we find other ways tobe intimate with each other,
(14:03):
like, like cooking for eachother and like spending personal
time together, that are just as,if not more meaningful, and and
it means that we're not placingthe values of our relationship
on the backbone of oneinsignificant construct.
Jenna Love (14:17):
Alice could I ask, have you ever felt pressure
either internally or externallyto not pursue monogamy as a sex
worker?
Alice Grey (14:24):
Yeah, yeah. When that first relationship ended, I
had this impression that I wasnever going to be able to have a
monogamous relationship as a sexworker. And so I thought, maybe
I need to explore being 'open'or being 'poly' and so I dated
some people who were in open andpoly relationships, but I just
(14:46):
found that I got really jealous,sharing other people intimately
and it wasn't about the sex. Itwas about the the emotional
connection and I wanted to havemy partner there with me for me,
and I didn't want to have toshare them with anybody else.
Holly Harte (15:01):
Alice, have you had any awkward reactions from
clients when you came out aboutbeing in a relationship?
Alice Grey (15:07):
I think once again, I've had a really broad spectrum
of responses to speaking aboutmy relationships, or my
relationship, with my clients.
There have been a few clientswho have developed feelings,
romantic feelings for me, whichis lovely and beautiful. And I
feel very flattered. Theyhaven't responded well to the
idea of me being in arelationship. So unfortunately,
(15:28):
those those people are no longermy clients. But generally, the
response has been really niceand supportive. Many of the
couples that I see think it'sfantastic, and we sort of trade,
you know, random coupleanecdotes. But no, it's been
mostly lovely.
Jenna Love (15:47):
I'm thinking about this for myself, because I was
in a relationship when I enteredthe industry, there's got to be
a thought process about, when doyou, like when do you know, it's
serious enough that you decideto be open with your clients? Is
that a factor?
Alice Grey (16:03):
Yeah, that is really interesting, I think when, I
feel more able to speak freelyabout my relationship with
clients who are in relationshipsthemselves, and so we can just
very comfortably share stories,and that's fine. But when it
comes to actually having to seta boundary when maybe navigating
a client's feelings, that can bea little bit awkward, and if
(16:26):
you're not at a stage where youfeel that your relationship is
sort of serious enough todisclose, but that's something
that you want to mention, it canit can be tough, but that's
okay, you just put your big girlpants on and we do our best.
Jenna Love (16:39):
So have you guys faced any challenges as a couple
relating to your work? And ifso, how have you managed to
overcome them?
Mr G (16:46):
I think the sort of the biggest challenges for us have
been sort of any in anyrelationship, there's, you know,
issues around work and hours andthat sort of balancing, you
know, the time out, you know,spent working especially in an
industry such as sex work whereyou know, it's not a nine to
five, it's, you know, there'sovernights, long bookings, short
(17:07):
bookings, you know, touring, allthat kind of stuff. So it's
mostly around that, you know,it's like, you know, in between
lockdowns when Alice goes, youknow, is trying to reclaim some,
get some cash back, you know, soshe's, she's out there working
pretty hard. And it's kind oflike, 'Hello, I'm here as well'.
But at the same time, you know,there's been, you know, some
(17:29):
days where I've put in some longhours as well. So it's just sort
of balancing that andunderstanding that sometimes,
you know, you got to put thepedal to the metal a bit and
work a little bit harder. Andone of the positive sides of the
pandemic is, you know, we've gotto spend a lot more time
together because of that,
Alice Grey (17:44):
It has been lovely.
Mr G (17:44):
Yeah. I think that's been the biggest issue for me.
Jenna Love (17:49):
I think that that's probably similar to the
experience of anybody in apartnership with somebody who
runs their own business to anextent.
Alice Grey (17:57):
Definitely
Mr G (17:57):
Yeah, 100%
Jenna Love (17:58):
You know, it's sort of a 24/7 gig.
Alice Grey (18:00):
I have very similar feelings about it. And I've
noticed that, you know, as Itook on that role in hospitality
between lockdowns when wecouldn't quite do sex work, but
I (18:09):
keep me occupied and B
navigating two different workingstyles. But as Greg said, it's
been beautiful to have this timetogether during lockdown, one of
the silver linings is that weget this time. So I'm certainly
grateful for it. And a funnykind of complication is that I
get really excited if I thinkthat a client of mine might be,
(18:32):
you know, a celebrity or someonecool or interesting, and I want
to talk about it. But we haveset firm boundaries around not
discussing who my clients are,or what they do, or what we do
together. And so sometimes Gregwill need to remind me, 'Hey, I
don't wanna know.' And I willjust, I'll get so excited, I
(18:53):
wanna talk about this coolperson that I've met, but I
can't!
Jenna Love (18:59):
That's so interesting, because I tell Mr.
Love everything. So are you ableto elaborate more on those
boundaries?
Mr G (19:05):
Yeah, it just comes down to specifics really, like I'm
happy to talk about work andlike, I'm aware of what sex work
entails. It's more just like, Idon't really want to know the
specifics. Like, I don't reallywant to know who they are, don't
really want to know, like, aslong as Alice is, you know, the
booking went well, she had agood time, you know, she got
paid and like, that's great.
Happy to talk about sort of,maybe things that didn't go so
(19:28):
well. If she wants to ventthat's that's fine. But yeah,
just sort of the specifics. It'sjust like, you know, what, just
don't, not really, not reallyinterested in knowing and I
think it's, I couldn'trationalise why that is, but
it's just something which sortof makes us feel, it makes me
feel a bit more comfortable, Iguess.
Holly Harte (19:47):
It's very healthy to have boundaries in any
relationship. It's sensible,regardless of what your
partner's job is. And regardlessof what those boundaries
surround and you just find, oridentify places that you feel
you can you know, make yourselffeel a little bit more
comfortable and that's reallyhealthy and the fact that you
can communicate that with eachother is also really nice.
Jenna Love (20:05):
I also think that would be quite common and
necessary in a lot ofrelationships where one partner
is say working in the medicalfield or working in law or
something where confidentialityis you know really important so
it's not all that unusual.
Mr G (20:18):
Yeah for sure
Holly Harte (20:19):
Or for like, international spies.
Jenna Love (20:20):
Them too.
Alice Grey (20:21):
Absolutely, absolutely, I've always wanted
to be an international spy, soGreg, this is great training
Jenna Love (20:27):
Maybe you are, maybe sex work is just your cover. He
wouldn't know!
Alice Grey (20:30):
Hey! It would be an excellent cover.
Mr G (20:33):
Oh man, layers. Jesus.
Alice Grey (20:35):
Greg made a really good analogy once, saying, so he
was working in a hospitalityadjacent field and was saying
'Look Alice, you really wouldn'tbe interested in the ins and
outs of my day-to-day so I'm notgonna share them with you'. And
I went 'Actually that's a reallygood point it'd be really
fucking boring' so I get it anddon't feel bad that I can'
(20:56):
share the the ins and outs of mmy bookings with h
Jenna Love (21:02):
You can just share them with us instead.
Alice Grey (21:03):
Yay!
Holly Harte (21:05):
We have some questions that our patrons have
submitted very kindly, they'revery interested to know some
more about you both. Mr. G, haveyou ever met any escorts before
Alice, that you know of?
Mr G (21:17):
Not to my knowledge! One thing I have realised since
being in relationship with Aliceis that if you're like, a
face-in worker like yougenerally are very very good at
you know, keeping that underwraps so very potentially, but
not to my knowledge.
Alice Grey (21:33):
Stigma it's a shit hey
Mr G (21:34):
I have met many more since dating Alice now.
Holly Harte (21:37):
Now you know. You go 'Oh!' you know, you may not
have known before, all the oneswho are meeting.
Alice Grey (21:42):
This makes me think that the hardest part of dating
a sex worker is is keeping upwith the amount of names that
their friends have.
Mr G (21:49):
100% 100%.
Jenna Love (21:52):
Okay, this is a big question from a patron, Alice
has sex work ever given youinteresting insights that are
related to your scientificpursuits, or vice versa?
Alice Grey (22:03):
Interesting. Do you know what, my experiences with
clients have have led me topursue the career that I'm
currently pursuing. I amcurrently studying a
postgraduate degree inpsychology purely because I love
my interactions with my clientsand I find it so interesting to
A (22:21):
learn about their lives and B
journeys that they otherwisewouldn't have embarked on. And
yeah, so that's, I don't reallywant to disclose specifically
where I would like to end up butyeah, that definitely led me
into this journey so thank youto all of my beautiful clients
for helping me find somethingthat I'm really passionate
(22:43):
about.
Holly Harte (22:44):
Wow, so before that, that wasn't something that
you were strongly considering,it was you had other life, you
know, goals and decisions. Andthat grew with the relationship
with your clients.
Alice Grey (22:54):
Yeah, definitely. I, fresh out of high school, I
embarked on a really long degreein biomedicine, had a background
in genetics and musculardystrophy, I thought I was going
to be a doctor did all of thethesis writing and battles with
a supervisor only to get to theend of it and go wow, I hate
(23:15):
this. What am I gonna do now?
Yeah, so I took a year off tosort of collect my thoughts and
was reflecting on my time in theindustry and realised that there
are just so many transferableskills that people don't realise
we have. Sex workers generallyhave so much compassion and
empathy for their clients and Ithink that we could really
utilise that in the world
Holly Harte (23:37):
Question for Mr. G.
What first attracted you toAlice?
Mr G (23:43):
I thought she was physically very attractive you
know that that gives you the theswipe right on tinder
Alice Grey (23:47):
That's such a diplomatic way to put it
Holly Harte (23:51):
She was a babe!
Mr G (23:52):
But it was more like, the bio like it was, there was a lot
going on, like a person who hada lot of interests and obviously
was very intelligent. So yeah, acombination of those two I
think. And just like, the theconversation was like
immediately very engaging wewere having a great chat from
the get-go. And yeah it's justlike one of those times where
you're like oh yeah cool this isthis is this is great you know
(24:13):
just from the get go. It wasn'tlike a, like a slow build or
anything like that. I mean, likeour first date, our first date
like you know, we were justmeeting for coffee and we went
and got some drinks and we'rejust like this you know, ended
up being this like
Alice Grey (24:23):
Four hours later
Mr G (24:24):
A huge huge date on the Sunday kind of thing.
Jenna Love (24:27):
Love that. So Alice, same question for you. What
first attracted you to him?
Alice Grey (24:32):
Oh my god. I am a snob and I love the fact that he
had a professional photo as hisTinder bio picture. I was so
sick of scrolling throughlike...
Mr G (24:46):
Fish pics!
Alice Grey (24:47):
Terrible selfies...
yeah!
Mr G (24:49):
So many fish pics.
Alice Grey (24:51):
So many fish pics.
The yeah, the only things thatreally interested me on Tinder
were A (24:54):
pictures of people's pets and nice photos. So it was
it was definitely this beautifulprofile picture and let's be
honest, I'm a sucker for abearded man.
Jenna Love (25:06):
I... a photo of fish would dry me the fuck up. I
cannot ...why are you showing mea fish? Ugh
Holly Harte (25:17):
Yeah the most common things that I see on
Tinder when I do bother to go onthe awful app is guys, like
holding dead fish or a whole lotof dead fish and they're like
look what I 'look at me, thehunter! I provide for you'.
Jenna Love (25:29):
No! Why are you holding a dead fucking animal?
Alice Grey (25:32):
It's not sexy.
Holly Harte (25:33):
Second one is them sticking their finger up in the
photo like in some sort ofedgy... who looks at that and
goes 'that's hot'?
Jenna Love (25:39):
I don't like dating 12 year olds sorry.
Alice Grey (25:42):
Not attracted to edgelords, guys. Sorry.
Holly Harte (25:44):
Yeah, and then and then the other one is them, with
just a picture of their car. AndI'm like, never have I seen a
picture of a car and gone 'Iwant to date a guy because of
the car he drives'.
Alice Grey (25:53):
Yeah, yeah. Car pictures are really common!
Holly Harte (25:56):
I love my car. I'm proud of my car. I really enjoy
it. But I don't use it as adating thing. Like
Mr G (26:01):
Look at the things I have, it's like ah, from, which, which
Avengers movie like, 'Behold, mystuff!' Yeah, I have a friend
who's, she's going through theinternet dating kind of perils
as someone in her late 30s andjust some of the some of the
(26:22):
shit she she shares with us justlike, like you said, like, guys
like throwing up gang signs andlike middle fingers and fishing
and drugged tigers in Bali andstuff and yeah, it's kind of
wild.
Holly Harte (26:34):
Oh, yeah. The Tigers. Yeah.
Jenna Love (26:36):
Who told them that women want that? Who told them
that?
Mr G (26:39):
This is the the thing like this, like no one's told them,
they're just kind of like, well,I like this picture then,
therefore a woman must love thispicture you know.
Holly Harte (26:47):
A male gaze thing, isn't it?
Mr G (26:48):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's probably it.
Holly Harte (26:50):
Looking at it through a bloke's eyes. This is
what I think's cool. Not 'Whatwould a woman find attractive?'
Jenna Love (26:54):
The fourth category is photos where they look like
serial killers? And they'relike... Why are you so angry?
That's not appealing. I don't, Idon't want to be attacked by
you.
Alice Grey (27:04):
I think they're trying to be moody.
Jenna Love (27:06):
Yeah, broody, but like, I want somebody who's
emotionally on top of theirshit.
Alice Grey (27:12):
One of us has to be in this relationship. And it's
not me.
Jenna Love (27:21):
You need to represent stability, because
that's not, I'm not delivering.
Holly Harte (27:26):
Alice, what advice would you give to sex workers
who are dating or looking for arelationship in general?
Alice Grey (27:31):
Oh gosh, this is so close to my heart. Firstly, I
think that it's important toremember that we shouldn't be
defined by our sexual pasts orpreferences. Broader society
likes to teach us that we areunworthy of love if we lead
sexually rich lives. And that'sjust not the case. We are all
worthy of love, respect andkindness. Secondly, I think that
(27:55):
personal boundaries are reallyimportant. And it is equally
important not to compromise onthose. Don't let other guys try
and tell you how you run yourbusiness or live your life. Live
your life for yourself, and theright person will come along to
join you.
Mr G (28:12):
It goes back to like enthusiastic, especially
especially with internet dating.
Like it goes back toenthusiastic consent. Like if
it's not a fuck yes, it's a no.
If it's not someone who's like,hell yeah. Don't waste your
time, you know, you've gotbetter things to do.
Alice Grey (28:25):
Don't think that you can change the guy who says that
he tolerates your job.
Jenna Love (28:30):
Yeah, somebody who tolerates you or accepts you,
it's just not, it's not a highenough standard, soz.
Alice Grey (28:35):
No, it's not, it's not good enough. You deserve to
be cherished and supported andlifted up by the person that you
love. A really lovely friend ofmine by the name of Georgie
Wolf, runs a blog called The Artof the Hookup. And a part of
that is teaching people how todate online during the pandemic,
(28:56):
and how to interact with peopleand maybe begin relationships or
just communicate. So for hottips, go support that amazing
human because they areexcellent.
Jenna Love (29:08):
And they've just started up a new podcast called
The Satisfaction Project, whichis related to that and is worth
checking out too.
Mr G (29:16):
Just to go off on that, like, we moved in together ah,
the February before thepandemic, like really kicked
off. So we had like, two orthree months experience of us
like living together and then itwas like, well, you know, get
used to it. But yeah, like Ithink if we were by ourselves,
like I would certainly be abasket case right now.
Alice Grey (29:38):
Definitely, definitely.
Jenna Love (29:39):
Like you Holly.
Like, you know the basket casethat you are? That's what he
would be like.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday, Alice and Mr. G. It's
Holly Harte (29:43):
Like I am, I am a basket case, yeah I know.
Thank you so much, so much forhaving us.
been a pleasure having you onthe show. Really interesting to
hear your perspectives. I thinkwe've got a lot of really
fascinating insights from youboth today and we feel very
Mr G (29:52):
Thank you for having us privileged
Jenna Love (30:00):
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Yep. And I love how straightforward and easy it is
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Question of the week. This year,I met a sex worker at a brothel
and we had an amazing firstsession, I started seeing her
(31:16):
regularly aside from periods oflockdown. Over the course of our
sessions, I've gotten to knowher better, and I am feeling a
very strong connection to herbecause of our shared interests,
sense of humour, discussions,and of course, great sexual
compatibility. She often tellsme how I am attractive to her,
gives me compliments, doesthings and makes allowances for
(31:37):
me that she doesn't offer otherclients. Following this, she has
recently given me her email inorder to make a private booking
with her outside of the brothel.
And we have been chatting onsocial media too. I've got the
feels for her big time andgenuinely want to be more than a
client. I'm not sure how toapproach this as I want to ask
her out. But at the same time,I'm aware that part of her job
(31:57):
is to provide the fantasy of alover. I'm scared to tell her
how I feel because I'm worriedshe might not feel the same. And
I'd have to stop seeing herbecause of my strong feelings.
How should I let her know thatI'm interested in more. After or
before booking, via email,message? I don't know what to
do, please help?
Jenna Love (32:16):
My answer is that you don't. I'm somebody who has,
I've dated three clients. I amnot opposed to the idea of
dating clients. I don't thinkthat there should be necessarily
this big 'You cannot dateclients'. I mean, we we meet
people in the workplace,sometimes. We all do. And I
think that's totally fair, eventhough there are some sex
workers who have that hard linefor themselves, which is fair.
(32:39):
In my opinion, if it is going tohappen, it has to come from the
worker. And that's what happenedto me every single time. Those
three times that I datedsomebody who I'd met as a
client, I said, 'Hey, do youwant to maybe like not pay me
'or, you know, whatever. I hadto to initiate it. And all three
(33:01):
of them at first didn't want todo that. They were like, 'Oh,
no, no, no, I'm paying for yourtime. This is...' you know, and
they they pushed back. And in myopinion, that is how it has to
be. I mean, you don't have tonecessarily push back. You can
just say, 'Yeah, fuck yeah,let's go for it'. Because the
thing is, and it's not alwaysgoing to be this way. But the
status quo is that we knowyou're into us, right? I don't
(33:24):
want to be too brutal about it.
But you're paying to spend timewith us. So we've got this
baseline of, well, you you atleast find us attractive in some
way, you enjoy, you keep comingback. So we've already got that.
And that puts us in the positionto be able to say, look, I think
that this relationship couldbecome something else. I don't
think that the client is in theposition to say that, because
(33:46):
you honestly don't really havean idea of how we are feeling.
And I don't want to I don't knowthis worker. I don't know the
people involved in thissituation. But the fact that you
have shared interests, that youhave great sexual compatibility,
that she does things for youthat she won't allow other
clients to do. You don't knowany of that. The reality is, she
(34:07):
might say to every singleclient, 'oh, I don't let anyone
else do this' like that, and,you know, I'm not suggesting
that that is what she does, butshe might. Sexual compatibility,
shared sense of humour, sharedinterests, those are all things
we're really good at doing.
That's our job. You know, Imean, I have clients who I think
(34:28):
have such a lame sense ofhumour, but I lean into it and I
laugh at their jokes, and I'llmake the same kinds of jokes,
because I'm creating a rapportand I'm giving them a nice time.
So it's really really hard toknow if you're not getting
anything from her. So my answeris not that it can't be
something else. But if it isgoing to be something else, it
(34:50):
has to, has to, has to, has tocome from her. And if it comes
from you, I don't think it willend well.
Holly Harte (34:57):
I'm going to go the entire 180 degree other way, I'm
sorry, I'm sorry to the listenerwho's asked this question,
because you're gonna get twodifferent opinions. But I
entirely disagree. I think it'sa really difficult situation,
obviously. Because as Jennasaid, we really try to make
things comfortable for you. AndI adore a lot of my clients,
(35:19):
does that mean that I want totake it further, almost
always... probably not. I'm veryhappy in my independence, and I
don't really need anyone. Istill adore my clients as
friends. And you know, I careabout them, and I enjoy our sex,
blah, blah, blah. But it's avery rare occasion when I do
meet somebody where I would wantto take it to the next level.
(35:41):
That being said, when Jenna saidthat, we know you're attracted
to us, that's very different.
Knowing that you want to fuckme, than knowing that you want
to be with me, and that youwould like to pursue something
more. So I would never presumethat a client would want to date
me, even if I wanted to datethem. I don't think I would feel
(36:02):
comfortable to tell a client, myfeelings, but I also, that's
something I personally strugglewith. I don't think I've ever
been able to tell anyone thatI've had feelings for them until
they've told me because I'mterrified of making myself
vulnerable and being rejected.
So like, fuck, that's hard. Idon't know. I think I prefer if
(36:25):
clients are feeling like they'restarting to cross boundaries
emotionally, and they'restarting to feel like they are
getting feelings for me, Iprefer they do let me know. I
think it's, you know, there'ssuch a big spectrum of feelings.
If you feel like, you just get alittle bit of a flutter when
you're together. So cool. If youfeel like it's like a healthy
little crush, that you just getto thrill when we chat. Cool,
(36:46):
that's all fine. But if you'restarting to feel like it's
affecting you emotionally, oryou're not able to make
appropriate decisions, when youspend money seeing me or you're
putting yourself in dodgypositions, then it's probably
best that you let me know. Sothat I can then draw appropriate
lines in the sand and say, maybeyou need to take a little bit of
a break, cool things down a bit.
Or maybe you need to findsomeone else because this is not
(37:07):
something that I can ethicallytake part in. So gosh, it's
complicated. Personally, if aclient is getting feelings for
me, I want to know, if theythink that it's a concern. And
you know, gosh, it's such a hardthing, because I have met
clients that I would date, but Idon't think they would date me.
(37:28):
So do you tell her, do you not?
Jenna Love (37:31):
Yeah but I think they would. And I think that
that is just you not seeing whatother people see in you.
Holly Harte (37:41):
I disagree. So it's, it's, this is a really
difficult one to answer.
Because, look, I'll tell you, myinstinct is that probably not.
Probably, she's not into you.
And that's really, really rough,being very blunt. But the odds
are, she's just doing her job.
And she's really good at it.
Jenna Love (37:56):
Or she may be into you, but isn't interested in
having a full on relationship.
Holly Harte (38:01):
Well yeah, she may very well enjoy you as a person.
But yeah, she may not want whatyou want. I don't think there is
harm, in my opinion inexpressing how you feel. But you
do have to be prepared that ifyou do that, she says 'I can't
see you anymore'. That's that'show it goes.
Jenna Love (38:17):
Yeah, that's very true. I mean, you can go ahead
with it. But you have to knowthat it might end it.
Holly Harte (38:23):
But it could be a romantic love story as well. So
this is just the hardestquestion ever. And I don't have
an answer for you. Because I'mwaiting for my own Prince
Charming. In this situation, Ithink it would be best to say
something to the worker, like,'Obviously, I'm really happy
with how things are going, Ilove seeing you in the dynamic
that we have now. But if therewas ever room or space in your
(38:45):
life, or you had any interest inus taking things to a different
level, or doing, seeing eachother in a civilian or a
romantic sense, then I would beopen to that. Obviously, I'm not
pushing for that. And I'm reallyhappy to continue as a client
and how things are now. That'sgreat. But I just want you to
know that if that was ever aconsideration, that that's
something I'm open to'. I thinkthat for me is, is sort of
(39:08):
straddling the line. So you'remaking it really clear to that
worker, that that's an option,if that is something that she
feels, and if not, that you'renot the sort of person who is
wanting to cross boundaries, ifand that you're not hingeing the
whole client/provider dynamic onwhether or not she says yes or
no. That you are happy. And andI would say also, don't say that
(39:28):
if that's not how you feel, ifyou really don't think you can
continue to be a client if shedoesn't want to date you, then
then be honest and say, tell herthe truth because there's no
point in just ripping your heartout by pretending that it's okay
and making her uncomfortable.
But I do believe that it is niceto be honest and to take, shoot
your shot and take a chance. AsI said before, don't expect that
(39:49):
it will go 100% well, but yeah,I think communication is
important.
Jenna Love (40:00):
It's now time for us to thank our wonderful patrons
for their generous and continuedsupport of the show. Without
you, we would not be able todedicate the amount of time and
energy that we currently do, andwe are endlessly grateful for
your support.
Holly Harte (40:13):
This week we have a new Giving Somebody which is
John, our new GenerousSomebodies are Nathan and
Clayton. And we have a new VeryGenerous Somebody which is
Olivia
Jenna Love (40:24):
Our Even More Generous Somebodies are Timmy
Andrew, Adam Smith, Le, Lachlan, Sub London, Mis
Billy, Nora Knightley, LeslieScott Watson, Andrew, Big M, Ou
Secret Admirer, Mudgee, Margareand Weezy
Holly Harte (40:43):
And our Extre ely Generous Somebodies are A
ron, Samuel, Andrew, Pete. Thodore Betts The First Esquire
and the incredible Amanda Valen
Jenna Love (40:55):
Thank you so much for listening yet again. We look
forward to catching you nextweek. Please look out for us on
Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,and Patreon. Our name everywhere
is Somebody You Pod as inpodcast. Our Patreon starts
t just $3 a month, and you can gt all of our episodes ad free a
(41:16):
d a day early. Plus bonus episods, behind the scenes acti
n, bloopers and more. Thank youor taking the time to listen to
he voices of sex workers.
nd remember, Somebody You Lve might just be a sex work
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