May 11, 2023 • 27 mins
Brenda and Deborah discuss how to identify and work with the dynamics of the relationships that we experience along our soul journey and what states of mind are the most efficient in how we invest our emotions and energy in them to help them (and us) grow.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Soul Path Sessions podcast with
Deborah Minds Pearson and BrendaLittleton.
Brenda is an educator andcounselor rooted in YY and
Ecopsychology.
She helps her clients understandthe importance of the mind,
body, spirit, and earthrelationship for healing.
Deborah is a licensedpsychotherapist and has been
trained in traditional andsacred psychology, exploring
(00:30):
from the ground up what makesour human experience meaningful,
wholesome, and enlightening.
Deborah and Brenda invite you toaccompany them on a soul path
journey as they explore thepossibilities of living a more
soulful life as therapists,seekers, and lovers of fate.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Welcome back to SOPA Sessions.
I'm Deborah Minds Pearson.
I'm here with my friend andfellow therapist, Brenda
Littleton, and today we're gonnabe looking at the soul of our
relationships and how to getalong in our
relationships, especially withthose people we might share a
home with and call family.
(01:11):
Mm-hmm.
or anybody that'sin our intimate space.
So that's what I'm interestedin.
Well,
Speaker 3 (01:17):
You've been reading Terry Real?
Yes.
Or real, I guess Real,
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Real.
Terry Real.
He's mm-hmm.
About our age.
He's in his sixties.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And, um, I know that his work has interested you and
there's a few ideas that I'dlove to know more about.
Okay.
And I know that you're in the bein the, in initiatory, um,
molding it over and yet it, it,it really has seeped and
saturated you.
Yes.
So, while we may not be doing atreaty on Terry r we are going
to investigate with respect tohis work with, in being with
(01:49):
relationship or in relationship.
Yes.
So, I love to hear more aboutthe idea of, um, the sense of
not being Right.
I think you, you had some Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So, so, so, so much of what he talks about is when
we enter a relationship withanother human being, we are
gonna bring our family of originright into it.
And the way we defendedourselves and, and stayed.
Okay.
Which was our last podcast.
Mm-hmm.
.
Um, and we have these, um, we,we marry somebody or we're with
(02:23):
in a intimate relationship,we're in fantasy.
And the minute we hit reality,they show us, um, that they
think differently than us.
And then we deal with that in away that, uh, can be really
brutal to, uh, our, ouradrenaline.
And we tend to go into automaticbehavior.
Right.
(02:43):
Hence why you and I have a jobworking with, with family
systems.
And so one of the firstquestions he, he says, I'm not
so interested in the problem.
I'm interested in where thatperson is inside.
Like, how are they hooked up?
Because if I'm talking to acouple and that person's
(03:04):
activated and they're in thelimbic or emotional center of
their brain, acting outchildhood trauma, it doesn't
matter what topic we're on, it'sgoing to be at a much reg, more
regressed place.
And that's typically what we seein our own relationships.
And as therapists, we see thetopic could be anything.
It could be the holidays, itcould be how you spend money,
(03:26):
but if I'm doing it from a placeof woundedness, and if I'm doing
it from a place of regression,we're gonna have the same old
argument again and again andagain.
So he points that out, like,where are you coming from?
His supposition is, if I'mcoming from my prefrontal
cortex, my wise adult logiccenter, I have the capacity to
(03:47):
be the following.
I love this list.
Nuanced, wise, realistic,forgiving, flexible, warm,
yielding, and humble.
That's the wise adult folks.
Okay.
Where
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Does that live?
?
Well,
Speaker 2 (04:05):
That lives in the prefrontal cortex.
Okay.
It's the ability to weigh andmeasure, to hold one more than
one idea to use discernment.
Mm-hmm.
to manageemotions, to be aware of the
feelings of others, as well asmy own feelings.
That's really what'sdistinguishes adults from
children, the wise adult.
I can imagine that I'm having anexperience and you're having one
(04:28):
too.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
So it's, um, a sense of generosity and compassion
mm-hmm.
and having a senseof belief that, um, you may be
in a contrary conversation andyou're not going to lose
yourself.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah.
And this idea of the, the guiltyis charged.
Winning is a big, um, strategythat we tend to get into with
other people, and it's reallynot efficient.
His focus has largely been onworking with men, um, and
couples.
And in our culture, in thepatriarchal culture, it's about
(05:02):
being top dog winning, um,keeping the ego safe.
And it's not about cooperating,it's aga about me first and
getting outta there unscathed.
And so he talks about the youand me culture versus the us the
title of his book culture.
And he appeals to thesensibilities of a lot of busy
people when he says, uh,practicing nuanced, realistic,
(05:25):
forgiving, flexible, warm,yielding and humble states of
mind is more efficient
Speaker 3 (05:32):
In the, in the long run.
The short term in the long run.
Yeah.
Right.
Because for the relationship ex.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
So you're coming into the, the idea I'm a, um, and,
and non-violent communication.
I'm a facilitator, and the ideais that you both come in with
the intention of love andcompassion and working things
out mm-hmm.
as opposed tobeing Right.
Regardless of what it, you know,what it is that we're gonna go
through.
Yeah.
So very different
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Direction.
Well, you know, we start offwith that idea, but then there's
a, a button that's pushed.
Okay.
And our reflexes, we don't evenget a chance to think.
Yeah.
We go right into how weprotected ourself from assault.
Mm-hmm.
, I mean, if myfrightened self is going to take
(06:19):
over and you're now gonna be theenemy, you're gonna be the
other.
It's not gonna be about us.
And I wouldn't even considerthat.
Maybe you are regressed too.
Maybe your, you've gone offline,maybe you've had a hard day.
Mm-hmm.
, maybe somethingwork didn't happen at work, or
you're not feeling well.
You see, children can't takethat perspective unless they've
been trained in it to know thatparents are separate from
(06:42):
themselves and have their a badday and maybe, uh, aren't
reflecting their best selvesunless a parent tells'em that.
So learning how to take theother person's perspective, or
at least create space for it, isa huge breakthrough.
Yeah.
I mean, we've taught activelistening for years as
therapists, but what he's reallysaying, it doesn't matter if
(07:02):
you're creating room for the,the patient conversation of
parroting what your partner saidand reframing, reframing it.
If you're activated, you canthrow it out the windows.
You're gonna say like, lookslike you're feeling sorry for
yourself.
Am I right?
You know, the active listeningisn't gonna work.
So it's much more a conversationabout me and you trying to
(07:25):
become us and the awareness thatI've gotta get back online and
be very generous.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
So how does one become, um, observant of when,
when they're in the, the freewayof emotion of being activated?
Like how, where are the stops?
Where is where is, like I saywith the metaphor, the freeway,
where are the off-ramps to beable to get off that track?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Well, one of them is to recognize the red flags.
Um, okay.
It's escalating.
Names are being called, um,stonewalling.
I don't wanna talk to you.
Contempt, defensiveness.
The things that John Gottmantalked about.
Yeah.
In, uh, the seven principles ofmaking marriage work.
It's like, oh, those are, whenthat happens, it's like weevils
(08:11):
in the oatmeal.
You don't wanna keep going.
So being mindful if it'sescalating and it's not working
out, yeah.
That would be a sign.
We're off track and henormalizes it.
We're gonna get off track it.
I'll use myself as a Guinea pig.
I work with a lot of couples,but he's my own couple.
I can tell when Michaels doessomething and my blood pressure
goes up right there, um, he saidsomething and I'm activated.
(08:35):
I'm now offline my choice.
Especially having read this bookand, and learning from it and
being reminded, we need to bereminded of these things cuz we
don't get reminded enough in ourculture that we can get
activated and it look like highblood pressure and, you
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Know, headaches, clenched
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Fists and headaches and deep hurt pain and wanting
to run sleep apnea.
Sleep apnea.
And in the moment, just likewith my body's going through, I
feel defensive.
I feel contempt.
I, I feel criticized.
So what I do instead is I softenand take a breath.
And now my adult, when I take abreath like Buddhas brain, the
(09:13):
book Mark Hansen's book mm-hmm.
, I immediatelysignal to my heart that I'm not
being chased by crocodiles.
When I signal to my heart thatI'm not being chased by
crocodiles, my amygdala stoppedsending messages to my brain
that I am in deep danger and Iam thinking from my limbic
system, my emotional brain,which then allows my brain to
(09:35):
tell me I'm safe, which allowsmy adrenals to calm down and
stop pumping adrenaline so thatI wanna fight, flight, fix, or
freeze as well.
Yeah.
And faw make it all better.
So when I become aware of that,I can stop and soften.
And then when I take the breathand I take a step back, okay.
(09:57):
Really, sometimes I'll literallytake a step back and then my, I
wait for my adult and becauseI've preloaded some of these
thoughts, I'll say he'sactivated or he's not activated
and I'm activated.
I can literally assess who'sactivated.
If he's activated, like he's yelled at me the other
day, you're being so impatient,, you're just not patient
(10:20):
.
And because I had read Terry'sbook, I said, I took a breath
and I thought he could berighted instead of going into my
typically regressed defenseposture.
I just looked at him and I said,you're right.
And he looked at me like, what?
.
I'm not used to that.
And, and I thought I wouldrather be free to quote my
(10:42):
teacher rom doss than write.
Yeah.
I was annoying.
I couldn't see how annoying Iwas just smashing into things,
trying to get out of the houseand forgetting half the things I
was, I was running out this, hewas right.
And then I create room for hispoint of view.
Okay.
I'm not as a woman, I was raisedin the time era feminism, which
(11:05):
says the guy is trying to crushyou.
And I learned to be harsh.
And one of the things that Terrysays about harshness, we all
received it as children.
Almost all of us did.
That there's no redeeming valuein being harsh.
So I'm looking at that too as amajor principle.
(11:26):
Could I have learned as a childwithout someone yelling at me,
calling me a name, beingimpatient with me being harsh.
Being harsh.
So stop, drop and roll.
And I just let go of it.
I just let go.
He said I was impatient, sowhat?
And I just kind of riffed on itand he kind of went, yeah, I'd
like you to really remember yourphone this time.
(11:47):
You know, because you come upthe stairs, you leave it nine
times outta 10.
I'm like, you know, you'reright.
I do.
And honestly, Brenda, it feltlike just, it just rolled off my
shoulders.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
You don't have to carry it.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I don't have to.
I don't have to be.
Right.
What a burden.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
And that's the ego burden.
Yeah.
It's just like saying you carryall this burden, all this weight
you have to maintain the senseof, um, protection and being
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
This is what, what Terry's list of what the
adaptive child.
Go
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Ahead.
Well I was just thinking you'vebeen having a very tight, high
dense load of patients.
Yes.
And and it's interesting thatyou are impatient when you are
like full of patients.
.
That's my youngest as in
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Part contact as a therapist.
Yeah.
I sit with this my wise adult.
Yeah.
My wise adult breathes.
Takes time, does a lot oflistening.
Mm-hmm.
enters the stream,uh, in a very different way.
And that's really important forall of us to be aware of.
I have my professional self andmost of my clients are like
(12:49):
that.
They do fine.
They're very successful people.
Yeah.
They know how to work with theirclients.
They know how to work in theirbusinesses and run things.
It's when we get home that weregress because I'm gonna take
off that mask and put it on thisdoor and I'm gonna be the child
now.
Yeah.
And you're gonna take, you'regonna take care of me.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
So what does Terry say that what Terry's
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Talking about the adaptive child.
The what I've learned to be whenI'm activated, this is how the
brain goes black and whiteversus nuanced.
Perfectionistic versusrealistic.
Relentless versus forgiving.
Like, I'm gonna fight you toothand nail to the ground.
I learned to do that with twoolder brothers who teased me.
(13:33):
I just get in there like awolverine versus forgiving.
Rigid versus flexible.
Like maybe part of what he'ssaying is right.
Mm-hmm.
and I benefit fromit.
Harsh versus warm.
Think how much distance thereis.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
between
the two.
Maybe
Speaker 2 (13:49):
He cares about me.
See my activated brain wouldnever think that Michael cared
about me.
He's been critical of me.
Yeah.
Like my brothers were criticalto me.
Yeah.
And when I really, I, I justwanna do a commercial for maybe
your parents didn't abuse you,but your siblings might have or
mm-hmm.
somebody else inthe family.
Um, hard versus yielding.
(14:10):
Like if I'm just staying on thisplace versus yielding, yield the
position that's an, an adultcertain versus humble.
So much healing happens withhumility.
When the ego burden is literallyheavy when I go, I can be wrong,
I can be late, I can be ignorantof something and I still have a
(14:32):
right to exist
Speaker 3 (14:34):
And it's all okay.
I mean, you may not wannaperpetuate it, but the idea is
that the, I think you said thekey word is I could benefit from
this.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I could benefit, and this is a hint for all of us.
If I'm tight in my body, thesomatic, the soma mm-hmm.
, I am going to beblack and white.
Perfectionist, relentless,rigid, harsh, hard, certain.
So I need to take that breath.
Yeah.
I need to take a step back,maybe go wash my hands, listen
(15:06):
to the podcast, listen, read thebook.
There's lots of resources.
But I'm really down the rabbithole with Terry cuz he's really,
he's a seasoned therapist like Iam.
And to know that I can listenwith love and interest, uh,
David d Burn's work in the fivesecrets of effective
communication.
(15:27):
It begins with I can validatewhat the other person is
experiencing.
If I were you, I'd be you.
I can ask questions about it.
Nobody thinks to do that whenyou're activated.
Like tell me more about myimpatience and how it's
upsetting.
I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah.
And the idea of those questions,a sense of curiosity feels like
that's the language of prefacingus versus me.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yes.
Cuz once I bring you in, youhave your own way of seeing the
world that could benefit me.
Yeah.
And you are alone in it.
And if I join you, even ifyou're like with people who have
Alzheimer's or any kind ofdementia, they, they don't
recommend saying there's noflying monkeys on the wall or
you know, or Uncle Burt is notstanding there.
(16:16):
It's like, what is Uncle Burtsaying?
What that, what I'm experiencingat that moment is my reality.
Right.
If you join me in it with loveand patience and empathy for
that's what I'm experiencing.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
So the idea of why it's attracting you, like the
idea of it's grabbed you.
Um, you find a lot of validityas as I do as well.
Mm-hmm.
, how is thisliving?
Like how can you apply this, um,say with children or, um,
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, with within the family.
Well,
Speaker 2 (16:54):
We don't need to be harsh with our kids.
We can ask them what they'regoing through.
We can validate theirexperience.
Mm-hmm.
if they come homeand say, I hate my teacher.
Um, rather than, oh, yourteacher, I met her back to
school.
I'm back to school.
They're just fine
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Know.
Dismissing.
Dismissing.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah.
I wanna drop out soccer.
A lot of my kids say, uh, theparents are like, they can't
drop outta soccer.
Invest in it.
You know, they're gonna be teamplayer.
Ask'em what they're goingthrough.
Don't, you're not in it to winit.
Yeah.
You're gonna join him.
I feel tired, I don't wanna goto practice tonight.
Ask more questions.
What's it like for you?
Going to practice every night.
Mm-hmm.
(17:30):
Uh, I can't get my work done.
That's gotta be difficult.
I don't have time to be, youknow, just to relax.
Well that's gotta be hard andinquire many times when you
choir.
Cuz generally they hire me toinquire gently.
The kid will say, I'll say, areyou saying Cause I'll ask a
question.
Does that mean you don't wannaplay soccer anywhere?
(17:51):
No.
I, I like soccer.
I just don't wanna be doingleague soccer.
I'd rather just play at theschool.
Mm-hmm.
, I like soccer orI'd like to take this season off
cuz I really like to read.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
So the idea of valuing what's going on in one's
life, not dismissing it well,
Speaker 2 (18:12):
He so frightened his parents that if they get off the
beaten track, we brutalize them.
Mm.
And so often what we're here todo and is nurture our children,
guide them at in a conversationthat is non-critical and
empathic.
And then set healthy limits fromthat place with them
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Together.
And not what, what you'reexplaining is feeding the back
line.
In my, my dialogue about when weteach our children, when we show
by modeling that we dismiss ourchildren mm-hmm.
as kids, theylearn that their real thoughts,
(18:56):
their ideas, who they are, theirneeds are dismissed.
Mm-hmm.
.
And this is what you do withthese parts of our life.
When we have a need, my parentdismissed it mm-hmm.
, um, or not fullyengaged with it mm-hmm.
, I was encouragedto give it up for their needs.
Um mm-hmm.
.
So as you mature, you take thatconditioning with you so that
(19:18):
when you're older and workingin, in a profession or in a
relationship, um, you're, you'velearned to rely on the, the
facility within yourself todismiss your needs.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
And not even to know their needs.
Yeah.
Because in many cases wherechildren are helicoptered Yeah.
And essentially rewarded forbeing better than everybody.
Mm-hmm.
, um, again, that,that sense of inflation.
I see kids who are suicidalbecause they're really good at
what they do.
They're awesome students,they're awesome athletes.
(19:56):
And they are saturated with thisidea that if they couldn't do
those things, it'd be unlovable.
So they either become bullies tothemselves or they, they achieve
these heights and bullied.
They grew up to be bullies totheir children.
Yeah.
Only love these es theseelevated parts
Speaker 3 (20:16):
As well as all the somatic issues that mature by 40
50.
Or sometimes they erupt whenwe're in our fifties, like
irritable bowel or mm-hmm.
, um, the immuneautoimmune, things like that.
I
Speaker 2 (20:30):
See our kids checking out.
Yeah.
When they're overly helicopter,they get to an age.
It's usually adolescents, uh,when they're gonna rebel and
they find something to numb.
So they'll find, uh, oh my gosh,everything, um, alcohol, pot,
you name it.
They'll take grandma's pills,they'll take, take anything, but
they will drop out completelybecause there's no place for
(20:51):
them to have their own thoughtsexcept the thoughts of they have
their, the parents' thoughts.
And like bronze says, yourchildren are, they really have
their own thoughts.
They come from tomorrow.
And we seem to be so frightenedof their thoughts if we create
room.
I remember with my son Zack, hewas quite a different thinker
and I had to stand back whenhe'd say, I don't see why I
actually have to go to college.
(21:11):
What's this college thing?
It's such a drive.
And I would have these longconversations where I'd listen
to him.
Like, what else would you bethinking with?
Like, tell me your thoughtsabout it.
Yeah.
He says, well, I can learn on myown.
And we went way down the rabbithole with what interested him.
And it was quite frighteningbecause he was saying things
that
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Frightening for you,
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Frightening for me.
Cuz he said, I don't see why Ican't just live in nature and
read books.
And I'm thinking he, that's,don't we call that houseless
homeless?
And I'm having all thesefantasies, but I, I learned to
stay with him because he would,he was such a strong kid in this
, um, he would just shut downand do what he wanted to do
anyway, so I went along for theride and I found that he had
(21:53):
beautiful thoughts.
Yeah.
And I just ask him questionslike, so if you live out in
nature, where would you live?
And have you looked intoshelters and you didn't go to
university?
And what if you changed yourmind, how would you go about it?
Like with that?
So it can lead to thesebeautiful, brave conversations
that are nuanced.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I gotta tell you that , that's how I lived my life.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Ah, like zacharia
Speaker 3 (22:17):
.
Yeah.
I did.
I didn't go to college until Iwas 40.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
See?
And you're
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Here.
I'm here.
And I lived out in nature and Iread the books and I, you
know.
Yeah.
So, um, it is possible.
You see, I
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Think we need to see those things.
I think there's such a tightnarrative in the patriarchal
view that we must get ahead ofeverybody.
Yeah.
I, I just paid for Zach to goget a bachelor's degree for
eight years while he took everyelective and explored his
musical career.
So we ended up getting some ofthat living up in Humboldt
County and really got to explorehis wild sides, which was great.
(22:52):
.
I love it.
Until he was 40 and then hebecame a psychotherapist.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I know, me too.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
You guys gotta talk.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Um, the little attention or the atten the
adjunctive, I should say, um,outcome of this conversation is
in my larger work of, um,working with people, um, in how,
how how they abdicate their ownself-worth Yeah.
(23:22):
Is many, most of us have allbeen taught from our, our
parenting, you know, our primarycaregivers, our, our school, our
society, the concentric circles,um, to dismiss that inner work
that what you've just been desdescribing, and it leaves this
imbalance, but it does createthis need for validation.
(23:45):
But we don't give it toourselves.
We look for it outward and wecrave it.
Mm-hmm.
, we act because wedon't own it ourselves.
We haven't been able to, uh, wehaven't been val validated, we
haven't been encouraged tobelieve and, and value who we
are and what we say and how wewanna do things.
And we're having all of thesediscordant, you know, pressures
(24:09):
saying, no, do it this way.
So when we're older, wetend to not have that
stealthiness inside and thatsense of belief.
And we do abdicate and we, butwe still have the same appetite.
But instead of self-fulfillingit, we search for the outward.
We, we go outside to validatemm-hmm.
(24:31):
.
And that's where we hook up witha lot of issues that allow us to
experience these things to thencreate discordants and, and
heartache and grief to come backeventually to that line of
self-care.
Because we, we, we travel allthose places, all those
positions outward, and we, weget those, uh, those, those
(24:53):
attendant lovers that, that, um,can build us up and suckers dry
because we don't know we have anexperience from within
ourselves.
Mm-hmm.
what that lookslike and feels like, you know?
Yeah.
We, we we need the outer.
I
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Love when I'm watching you because what you're
doing is your hands are comingto your heart mm-hmm.
.
And they're saying when youknow, when you're in, when
you're going in and you're, youknow what you need and you
desire and then your hands goout.
And so that is the, I call thatthe point of power.
When I take the point of poweraway from what is heartfelt Yeah
.
And close to me and I place itout in you, uh, then I'm gonna
(25:31):
be disappointed.
Absolutely.
Because I just absolutely gaveyou my passion.
It's like Zach, well quote onelast time before we're done.
He said to me when I bought himthe last set of oil paints and
he'd given up painting for musicand he said, if you love
painting so much, why don't youdo it?
Mm-hmm.
, which I startedbecause I realized I wanted a
son who was an artist, but I didnot, or at least when he showed
(25:52):
an interest in art, I thoughtthat was fabulous.
And when he gave it up, I washeartsick.
And when my son handed it backto me, yeah.
It first I was insulted and thenI was invited.
I stopped arguing in a harsh,rigid way.
Became more yielding my wiseadult said, I think my kid just
taught me something.
Yeah.
I've denied myself the artistwithin, which is the name of our
(26:14):
next talk We're gonna get to.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Thank you so much, Deborah.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
All right.
Thank you Brenda.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
And that concludes this week's episode of the Soul
Path Sessions podcast withDeborah Mights Pearson and
Brenda Littleton.
If you'd like to hear more aboutliving a more soulful life,
please subscribe to our channelon your favorite podcast app and
be sure to check out the shownotes and links below.
For more information fromDeborah, visit soul path
sessions.com and for brendabrenda littleton com.
(26:48):
Thank you for listening andremember to follow your soul.
Welcome to the Soul Path Sessions podcast with
Deborah Minds Pearson and BrendaLittleton.
Brenda is an educator andcounselor rooted in YY and
Ecopsychology.
She helps her clients understandthe importance of the mind,
body, spirit, and earthrelationship for healing.
Deborah is a licensedpsychotherapist and has been
trained in traditional andsacred psychology, exploring
(00:30):
from the ground up what makesour human experience meaningful,
wholesome, and enlightening.
Deborah and Brenda invite you toaccompany them on a soul path
journey as they explore thepossibilities of living a more
soulful life as therapists,seekers, and lovers of fate.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Welcome back to SOPA Sessions.
I'm Deborah Minds Pearson.
I'm here with my friend andfellow therapist, Brenda
Littleton, and today we're gonnabe looking at the soul of our
relationships and how to getalong
relationships, especially withthose people we might share a
home with and call family.
(01:11):
Mm-hmm.
So that's what I'm interestedin.
Well,
Speaker 3 (01:17):
You've been reading Terry Real?
Yes.
Or real, I guess Real,
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Real.
Terry Real.
He's mm-hmm.
About our age.
He's in his sixties.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And, um, I know that his work has interested you and
there's a few ideas that I'dlove to know more about.
Okay.
And I know that you're in the bein the, in initiatory, um,
molding it over and yet it, it,it really has seeped and
saturated you.
Yes.
So, while we may not be doing atreaty on Terry r we are going
to investigate with respect tohis work with, in being with
(01:49):
relationship or in relationship.
Yes.
So, I love to hear more aboutthe idea of, um, the sense of
not being Right.
I think you, you had some Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So, so, so, so much of what he talks about is when
we enter a relationship withanother human being, we are
gonna bring our family of originright into it.
And the way we defendedourselves and, and stayed.
Okay.
Which was our last podcast.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and we have these, um, we,we marry somebody or we're with
(02:23):
in a intimate relationship,we're in fantasy.
And the minute we hit reality,they show us, um, that they
think differently than us.
And then we deal with that in away that, uh, can be really
brutal to, uh, our
And we tend to go into automaticbehavior.
Right.
(02:43):
Hence why you and I have a jobworking with
systems.
And so one of the firstquestions he, he says, I'm not
so interested in the problem.
I'm interested in where thatperson is inside.
Like, how are they hooked up?
Because if I'm talking to acouple and that person's
(03:04):
activated and they're in thelimbic or emotional center of
their brain, acting outchildhood trauma, it doesn't
matter what topic we're on, it'sgoing to be at a much reg, more
regressed place.
And that's typically what we seein our own relationships.
And as therapists, we see thetopic could be anything.
It could be the holidays, itcould be how you spend money,
(03:26):
but if I'm doing it from a placeof woundedness, and if I'm doing
it from a place of regression,we're gonna have the same old
argument again and again andagain.
So he points that out, like,where are you coming from?
His supposition is, if I'mcoming from my prefrontal
cortex, my wise adult logiccenter, I have the capacity to
(03:47):
be the following.
I love this list.
Nuanced, wise, realistic,forgiving, flexible, warm,
yielding, and humble.
That's the wise adult folks.
Okay.
Where
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Does that live?
Well,
Speaker 2 (04:05):
That lives in the prefrontal cortex.
Okay.
It's the ability to weigh andmeasure, to hold one more than
one idea to use discernment.
Mm-hmm.
feelings of others, as well asmy own feelings.
That's really what'sdistinguishes adults from
children, the wise adult.
I can imagine that I'm having anexperience and you're having one
(04:28):
too.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
So it's, um, a sense of generosity and compassion
mm-hmm.
in a contrary conversation andyou're not going to lose
yourself.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah.
And this idea of the, the guiltyis charged.
Winning is a big, um, strategythat we tend to get into with
other people, and it's reallynot efficient.
His focus has largely been onworking with men, um, and
couples.
And in our culture, in thepatriarchal culture, it's about
(05:02):
being top dog winning, um,keeping the ego safe.
And it's not about cooperating,it's aga about me first and
getting outta there unscathed.
And so he talks about the youand me culture versus the us the
title of his book culture.
And he appeals to thesensibilities of a lot of busy
people when he says, uh,practicing nuanced, realistic,
(05:25):
forgiving, flexible, warm,yielding and humble states of
mind is more efficient
Speaker 3 (05:32):
In the, in the long run.
The short term in the long run.
Yeah.
Right.
Because for the relationship ex.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
So you're coming into the, the idea I'm a, um, and,
and non-violent communication.
I'm a facilitator, and the ideais that you both come in with
the intention of love andcompassion and working things
out mm-hmm.
Regardless of what it, you know,what it is that we're gonna go
through.
Yeah.
So very different
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Direction.
Well, you know, we start offwith that idea, but then there's
a, a button that's pushed.
Okay.
And our reflexes, we don't evenget a chance to think.
Yeah.
We go right into how weprotected ourself from assault.
Mm-hmm.
(06:19):
over and you're now gonna be theenemy, you're gonna be the
other.
It's not gonna be about us.
And I wouldn't even considerthat.
Maybe you are regressed too.
Maybe your, you've gone offline,maybe you've had a hard day.
Mm-hmm.
you're not feeling well.
You see, children can't takethat perspective unless they've
been trained in it to know thatparents are separate from
(06:42):
themselves and have their a badday and maybe, uh, aren't
reflecting their best selvesunless a parent tells'em that.
So learning how to take theother person's perspective, or
at least create space for it, isa huge breakthrough.
Yeah.
I mean, we've taught activelistening for years as
therapists, but what he's reallysaying, it doesn't matter if
(07:02):
you're creating room for the,the patient conversation of
parroting what your partner saidand reframing, reframing it.
If you're activated, you canthrow it out the windows.
You're gonna say like, lookslike you're feeling sorry for
yourself.
Am I right?
You know, the active listeningisn't gonna work.
So it's much more a conversationabout me and you trying to
(07:25):
become us and the awareness thatI've gotta get back online and
be very generous.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
So how does one become, um, observant of when,
when they're in the, the freewayof emotion of being activated?
Like how, where are the stops?
Where is where is, like I saywith the metaphor, the freeway,
where are the off-ramps to beable to get off that track?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Well, one of them is to recognize the red flags.
Um, okay.
It's escalating.
Names are being called, um,stonewalling.
I don't wanna talk to you.
Contempt, defensiveness.
The things that John Gottmantalked about.
Yeah.
In, uh, the seven principles ofmaking marriage work.
It's like, oh, those are, whenthat happens, it's like weevils
(08:11):
in the oatmeal.
You don't wanna keep going.
So being mindful if it'sescalating and it's not working
out, yeah.
That would be a sign.
We're off track and henormalizes it.
We're gonna get off track it.
I'll use myself as a Guinea pig.
I work with a lot of couples,but he's my own couple.
I can tell when Michaels doessomething and my blood pressure
goes up right there, um, he saidsomething and I'm activated.
(08:35):
I'm now offline my choice.
Especially having read this bookand, and learning from it and
being reminded, we need to bereminded of these things cuz we
don't get reminded enough in ourculture that we can get
activated and it look like highblood pressure and, you
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Know, headaches, clenched
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Fists and headaches and deep hurt pain and wanting
to run sleep apnea.
Sleep apnea.
And in the moment, just likewith my body's going through, I
feel defensive.
I feel contempt.
I, I feel criticized.
So what I do instead is I softenand take a breath.
And now my adult, when I take abreath like Buddhas brain, the
(09:13):
book Mark Hansen's book mm-hmm.
being chased by crocodiles.
When I signal to my heart thatI'm not being chased by
crocodiles, my amygdala stoppedsending messages to my brain
that I am in deep danger and Iam thinking from my limbic
system, my emotional brain,which then allows my brain to
(09:35):
tell me I'm safe, which allowsmy adrenals to calm down and
stop pumping adrenaline so thatI wanna fight, flight, fix, or
freeze as well.
Yeah.
And faw make it all better.
So when I become aware of that,I can stop and soften.
And then when I take the breathand I take a step back, okay.
(09:57):
Really, sometimes I'll literallytake a step back and then my, I
wait for my adult and becauseI've preloaded some of these
thoughts, I'll say he'sactivated or he's not activated
and I'm activated.
I can literally assess who'sactivated.
If he's activated, like he's
day, you're being so impatient,
(10:20):
.
And because I had read Terry'sbook, I said, I took a breath
and I thought he could berighted instead of going into my
typically regressed defenseposture.
I just looked at him and I said,you're right.
And he looked at me like, what?
I'm not used to that.
And, and I thought I wouldrather be free to quote my
(10:42):
teacher rom doss than write.
Yeah.
I was annoying.
I couldn't see how annoying Iwas just smashing into things,
trying to get out of the houseand forgetting half the things I
was, I was running out this, hewas right.
And then I create room for hispoint of view.
Okay.
I'm not as a woman, I was raisedin the time era feminism, which
(11:05):
says the guy is trying to crushyou.
And I learned to be harsh.
And one of the things that Terrysays about harshness, we all
received it as children.
Almost all of us did.
That there's no redeeming valuein being harsh.
So I'm looking at that too as amajor principle.
(11:26):
Could I have learned as a childwithout someone yelling at me,
calling me a name, beingimpatient with me being harsh.
Being harsh.
So stop, drop and roll.
And I just let go of it.
I just let go.
He said I was impatient, sowhat?
And I just kind of riffed on itand he kind of went, yeah, I'd
like you to really remember yourphone this time.
(11:47):
You know, because you come upthe stairs, you leave it nine
times outta 10.
I'm like, you know, you'reright.
I do.
And honestly, Brenda, it feltlike just, it just rolled off my
shoulders.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
You don't have to carry it.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
I don't have to.
I don't have to be.
Right.
What a burden.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
And that's the ego burden.
Yeah.
It's just like saying you carryall this burden, all this weight
you have to maintain the senseof, um, protection and being
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
This is what, what Terry's list of what the
adaptive child.
Go
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Ahead.
Well I was just thinking you'vebeen having a very tight, high
dense load of patients.
Yes.
And and it's interesting thatyou are impatient when you are
like full of patients.
That's my youngest as in
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Part contact as a therapist.
Yeah.
I sit with this my wise adult.
Yeah.
My wise adult breathes.
Takes time, does a lot oflistening.
Mm-hmm.
And that's really important forall of us to be aware of.
I have my professional self andmost of my clients are like
(12:49):
that.
They do fine.
They're very successful people.
Yeah.
They know how to work with theirclients.
They know how to work in theirbusinesses and run things.
It's when we get home that weregress because I'm gonna take
off that mask and put it on thisdoor and I'm gonna be the child
now.
Yeah.
And you're gonna take, you'regonna take care of me.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
So what does Terry say that what Terry's
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Talking about the adaptive child.
The what I've learned to be whenI'm activated, this is how the
brain goes black and whiteversus nuanced.
Perfectionistic versusrealistic.
Relentless versus forgiving.
Like, I'm gonna fight you toothand nail to the ground.
I learned to do that with twoolder brothers who teased me.
(13:33):
I just get in there like awolverine versus forgiving.
Rigid versus flexible.
Like maybe part of what he'ssaying is right.
Mm-hmm.
Harsh versus warm.
Think how much distance thereis.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Maybe
Speaker 2 (13:49):
He cares about me.
See my activated brain wouldnever think that Michael cared
about me.
He's been critical of me.
Yeah.
Like my brothers were criticalto me.
Yeah.
And when I really, I, I justwanna do a commercial for maybe
your parents didn't abuse you,but your siblings might have or
mm-hmm.
Um, hard versus yielding.
(14:10):
Like if I'm just staying on thisplace versus yielding, yield the
position that's an, an adultcertain versus humble.
So much healing happens withhumility.
When the ego burden is literallyheavy when I go, I can be wrong,
I can be late, I can be ignorantof something and I still have a
(14:32):
right to exist
Speaker 3 (14:34):
And it's all okay.
I mean, you may not wannaperpetuate it, but the idea is
that the, I think you said thekey word is I could benefit from
this.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
I could benefit, and this is a hint for all of us.
If I'm tight in my body, thesomatic, the soma mm-hmm.
Perfectionist, relentless,rigid, harsh, hard, certain.
So I need to take that breath.
Yeah.
I need to take a step back,maybe go wash my hands, listen
(15:06):
to the podcast, listen, read thebook.
There's lots of resources.
But I'm really down the rabbithole with Terry cuz he's really,
he's a seasoned therapist like Iam.
And to know that I can listenwith love and interest, uh,
David d Burn's work in the fivesecrets of effective
communication.
(15:27):
It begins with I can validatewhat the other person is
experiencing.
If I were you, I'd be you.
I can ask questions about it.
Nobody thinks to do that whenyou're activated.
Like tell me more about myimpatience and how it's
upsetting.
I'm curious.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah.
And the idea of those questions,a sense of curiosity feels like
that's the language of prefacingus versus me.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yes.
Cuz once I bring you in, youhave your own way of seeing the
world that could benefit me.
Yeah.
And you are alone in it.
And if I join you, even ifyou're like with people who have
Alzheimer's or any kind ofdementia, they, they don't
recommend saying there's noflying monkeys on the wall or
you know, or Uncle Burt is notstanding there.
(16:16):
It's like, what is Uncle Burtsaying?
What that, what I'm experiencingat that moment is my reality.
Right.
If you join me in it with loveand patience and empathy for
that's what I'm experiencing.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
So the idea of why it's attracting you, like the
idea of it's grabbed you.
Um, you find a lot of validityas as I do as well.
Mm-hmm.
Like how can you apply this, um,say with children or, um,
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, with within the family.
Well,
Speaker 2 (16:54):
We don't need to be harsh with our kids.
We can ask them what they'regoing through.
We can validate theirexperience.
Mm-hmm.
Um, rather than, oh, yourteacher, I met her back to
school.
I'm back to school.
They're just fine
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Know.
Dismissing.
Dismissing.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah.
I wanna drop out soccer.
A lot of my kids say, uh, theparents are like, they can't
drop outta soccer.
Invest in it.
You know, they're gonna be teamplayer.
Ask'em what they're goingthrough.
Don't, you're not in it to winit.
Yeah.
You're gonna join him.
I feel tired, I don't wanna goto practice tonight.
Ask more questions.
What's it like for you?
Going to practice every night.
Mm-hmm.
(17:30):
Uh, I can't get my work done.
That's gotta be difficult.
I don't have time to be, youknow, just to relax.
Well that's gotta be hard andinquire many times when you
choir.
Cuz generally they hire me toinquire gently.
The kid will say, I'll say, areyou saying Cause I'll ask a
question.
Does that mean you don't wannaplay soccer anywhere?
(17:51):
No.
I, I like soccer.
I just don't wanna be doingleague soccer.
I'd rather just play at theschool.
Mm-hmm.
cuz I really like to read.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
So the idea of valuing what's going on in one's
life, not dismissing it well,
Speaker 2 (18:12):
He so frightened his parents that if they get off the
beaten track, we brutalize them.
Mm.
And so often what we're here todo and is nurture our children,
guide them at in a conversationthat is non-critical and
empathic.
And then set healthy limits fromthat place with them
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Together.
And not what, what you'reexplaining is feeding the back
line.
In my, my dialogue about when weteach our children, when we show
by modeling that we dismiss ourchildren mm-hmm.
(18:56):
their ideas, who they are, theirneeds are dismissed.
Mm-hmm.
And this is what you do withthese parts of our life.
When we have a need, my parentdismissed it mm-hmm.
Um mm-hmm.
So as you mature, you take thatconditioning with you so that
(19:18):
when you're older and workingin, in a profession or in a
relationship, um, you're, you'velearned to rely on the, the
facility within yourself todismiss your needs.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
And not even to know their needs.
Yeah.
Because in many cases wherechildren are helicoptered Yeah.
And essentially rewarded forbeing better than everybody.
Mm-hmm.
I see kids who are suicidalbecause they're really good at
what they do.
They're awesome students,they're awesome athletes.
(19:56):
And they are saturated with thisidea that if they couldn't do
those things, it'd be unlovable.
So they either become bullies tothemselves or they, they achieve
these heights and bullied.
They grew up to be bullies totheir children.
Yeah.
Only love these es theseelevated parts
Speaker 3 (20:16):
As well as all the somatic issues that mature by 40
50.
Or sometimes they erupt whenwe're in our fifties, like
irritable bowel or mm-hmm.
I
Speaker 2 (20:30):
See our kids checking out.
Yeah.
When they're overly helicopter,they get to an age.
It's usually adolescents, uh,when they're gonna rebel and
they find something to numb.
So they'll find, uh, oh my gosh,everything, um, alcohol, pot,
you name it.
They'll take grandma's pills,they'll take, take anything, but
they will drop out completelybecause there's no place for
(20:51):
them to have their own thoughtsexcept the thoughts of they have
their, the parents' thoughts.
And like bronze says, yourchildren are, they really have
their own thoughts.
They come from tomorrow.
And we seem to be so frightenedof their thoughts if we create
room.
I remember with my son Zack, hewas quite a different thinker
and I had to stand back whenhe'd say, I don't see why I
actually have to go to college.
(21:11):
What's this college thing?
It's such a drive.
And I would have these longconversations where I'd listen
to him.
Like, what else would you bethinking with?
Like, tell me your thoughtsabout it.
Yeah.
He says, well, I can learn on myown.
And we went way down the rabbithole with what interested him.
And it was quite frighteningbecause he was saying things
that
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Frightening for you,
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Frightening for me.
Cuz he said, I don't see why Ican't just live in nature and
read books.
And I'm thinking he, that's,don't we call that houseless
homeless?
And I'm having all thesefantasies, but I, I learned to
stay with him because he would,he was such a strong kid in this
, um, he would just shut downand do what he wanted to do
anyway, so I went along for theride and I found that he had
(21:53):
beautiful thoughts.
Yeah.
And I just ask him questionslike, so if you live out in
nature, where would you live?
And have you looked intoshelters and you didn't go to
university?
And what if you changed yourmind, how would you go about it?
Like with that?
So it can lead to thesebeautiful, brave conversations
that are nuanced.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I gotta tell you that , that's how I lived my life.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Ah, like zacharia
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah.
I did.
I didn't go to college until Iwas 40.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
See?
And you're
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Here.
I'm here.
And I lived out in nature and Iread the books
know.
Yeah.
So, um, it is possible.
You see, I
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Think we need to see those things.
I think there's such a tightnarrative in the patriarchal
view that we must get ahead ofeverybody.
Yeah.
I, I just paid for Zach to goget a bachelor's degree for
eight years while he took everyelective and explored his
musical career.
So we ended up getting some ofthat living up in Humboldt
County and really got to explorehis wild sides, which was great.
(22:52):
I love it.
Until he was 40 and then hebecame a psychotherapist.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I know, me too.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
You guys gotta talk.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Um, the little attention or the atten the
adjunctive, I should say, um,outcome of this conversation is
in my larger work of, um,working with people, um, in how,
how how they abdicate their ownself-worth Yeah.
(23:22):
Is many, most of us have allbeen taught from our, our
parenting, you know, our primarycaregivers, our, our school, our
society, the concentric circles,um, to dismiss that inner work
that what you've just been desdescribing, and it leaves this
imbalance, but it does createthis need for validation.
(23:45):
But we don't give it toourselves.
We look for it outward and wecrave it.
Mm-hmm.
We haven't been able to, uh, wehaven't been val validated, we
haven't been encouraged tobelieve and, and value who we
are and what we say and how wewanna do things.
And we're having all of thesediscordant, you know, pressures
(24:09):
saying, no, do it this way.
So when we're older
stealthiness inside and thatsense of belief.
And we do abdicate and we, butwe still have the same appetite.
But instead of self-fulfillingit, we search for the outward.
We, we go outside to validatemm-hmm.
(24:31):
And that's where we hook up witha lot of issues that allow us to
experience these things to thencreate discordants and, and
heartache and grief to come backeventually to that line of
self-care.
Because we, we, we travel allthose places, all those
positions outward, and we, weget those, uh, those, those
(24:53):
attendant lovers that, that, um,can build us up and suckers dry
because we don't know we have anexperience from within
ourselves.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
We, we we need the outer.
I
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Love when I'm watching you because what you're
doing is your hands are comingto your heart mm-hmm.
And they're saying when youknow, when you're in, when
you're going in and you're, youknow what you need and you
desire and then your hands goout.
And so that is the, I call thatthe point of power.
When I take the point of poweraway from what is heartfelt Yeah
.
And close to me and I place itout in you, uh, then I'm gonna
(25:31):
be disappointed.
Absolutely.
Because I just absolutely gaveyou my passion.
It's like Zach, well quote onelast time before we're done.
He said to me when I bought himthe last set of oil paints and
he'd given up painting for musicand he said, if you love
painting so much, why don't youdo it?
Mm-hmm.
son who was an artist, but I didnot, or at least when he showed
(25:52):
an interest in art, I thoughtthat was fabulous.
And when he gave it up, I washeartsick.
And when my son handed it backto me, yeah.
It first I was insulted and thenI was invited.
I stopped arguing in a harsh,rigid way.
Became more yielding my wiseadult said, I think my kid just
taught me something.
Yeah.
I've denied myself the artistwithin, which is the name of our
(26:14):
next talk We're gonna get to.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Thank you so much, Deborah.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
All right.
Thank you Brenda.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
And that concludes this week's episode of the Soul
Path Sessions podcast withDeborah Mights Pearson and
Brenda Littleton.
If you'd like to hear more aboutliving a more soulful life,
please subscribe to our channelon your favorite podcast app and
be sure to check out the shownotes and links below.
For more information fromDeborah, visit soul path
sessions.com and for brendabrenda littleton com.
(26:48):
Thank you for listening andremember to follow your soul.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.