November 3, 2020 • 62 mins
In this episode we interview Rob Stull. Rob is a Comic Book Industry Veteran who has worked for every major publisher, a teacher, a Museum of Fine Arts Boston Artist-in-Residence, and an Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Luminary.
We chat about how he got into the comic book industry, the influence of hip hop culture, advice for upcoming artists, adventures with Phase2, and becoming the first local artist to receive a residency from the museum of fine arts.
You can find Rob here:
www.robstull.com
www.instagram.com/robstull24
www.twitter.com/RobStull24
www.facebook.com/iamrobstull
www.mfa.org/exhibition/writing-the-future
https://openarchives.umb.edu/digital/collection/p15774coll41
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:05):
Welcome to Souls of Hip Hop, a podcast for hip hop heads
that aims to bring inspiringpeople together to share their
wisdom, passion, and uniquestories.
My name is Candy, and I'm DJRazor Cut.
And together we are Soulidarity,connecting souls organically.
(00:26):
On today's show, we welcome RobStull. Rob is a comic book
industry veteran who has workedfor every major publisher. He is
also a teacher, a Museum of FineArts Boston artist in residence,
and an Isabella Stewart GardnerMuseum luminary. Thank you so
much for joining us and jumpingon our podcast.
(00:48):
How would your parents describewhat you do?
An artist, really. Just artists- that sums it up perfectly.
There were so many artists in myfamily, you know, my uncle's
taught art, one uncle was aceramicist. Another uncle was a
drawing instructor, a drawingprofessor, my father's an
architect, retired architect.
Everybody just did art. Sogrowing up, it wasn't like an
(01:09):
unusual kind of thing. It wasalways around. You know,
everybody was always doingsomething. So I was predisposed
to it. You know, I wasintroduced to it at such a young
age, it was just a natural kindof thing. Visual Art.
What was Boston like during yourchildhood?
When I was a kid, I was reallyquiet, really quiet and shy. And
(01:32):
I remember I went to this schoolthat I hated. And it had you
guys probably don't remember thelittle school buses, like the
station wagon school buses thatwould pick you up? You guys
remember those? Or am I datingmyself? No, I didn't think so.
So they would pull the kids thatthat took that ride with me.
(01:52):
That would just terrorize you.
And I was such a quiet, shy kid.
I hated that school bus ride. Itwasn't even a school bus. It was
just like a station wagon. Ithad little school bus sign on
the top of it. But I rememberdrawing like images from that
experience going to that school.
So it wasn't like it was aconverted warehouse. I don't
(02:16):
even remember what part ofBoston it was. I just know that
I hated it. But it left anundeniable impression on me.
Because it's I think in in a lotof ways, it woke up a lot of
that creative energy. Butthat's, that's going back as as
far as I can remember growingup. I was living in Boston, sort
of close to Kenmore square area.
(02:41):
In the Back Bay. This is beforethe Back Bay was like impossible
to live financially. It wasactually affordable. It was a
lower rent district. Nobody everbelieves that. But it was it was
it was kind of affordable backthen. But I actually went to
public school in Brookline. Andthat was a positive experience,
(03:02):
What made it positive?
That's when I started meetingpeople. That kind of
contributed, I would say to theshaping and forming of my
character, you start meetingpeople that are into the same
things that you are, you know,things like that. That's when I
really got into hip hop. I wasalways a comic book head though.
comic books were there fromkindergarten. So I was always a
(03:26):
comic book head, you know, meand some of my classmates in
grade school. It's funny, like,I think creative people, we sort
of gravitate to people that aresort of have like an like minded
interest. So I had like, most ofmy immediate friends were
artistically inclined. So wewould basically do our version
(03:47):
of whatever the popular comicbooks that we like, or that we
read, and we would do likeknockoff versions and create our
own characters and our own comicbooks and things like that, too.
But by high school, that's whenI started meeting people, the
unique dominoes, floor lords,and other graffiti artists. It
(04:09):
wasn't like we were all I know,for me, it wasn't like I was
focused on one specific aspector element of the culture. It
was just the culture alltogether. You know, we were just
all into hip hop. And then therewere people that did several
different things. There was somepeople that I met that did
graffiti, a DJ, that break theywill be boys. So what's that
(04:31):
kind of thing? And it just kindof happened. It just sort of
evolved out of out of thin airalmost. But it wasn't like it
was presented to us. You knowwhat I mean? And I think it's
because I experienced it when Iwas so young, you know, wasn't
like this is hip hop. It justsort of gradually kind of came
into our lives.
Like what you said about youknow, meeting other creative
(04:54):
people and I believe hip hop isone of those cultures that
allows people to expressthemselves. And why a lot of
creative people gravitatetowards it. How did that
experience of meeting the peoplein the culture getting involved
in it? How did that influenceyou as a person?
Influence?! it completelydominated my life. So I just
(05:20):
backtrack a little bit, youknow, if you're fortunate enough
to go to a good school, and thefaculty there, they take
interest in the students, likethere's a kid that excels in
sports, or is no good at actingor track or whatever it is, then
they will take an interest inthat student and try to help
(05:42):
nurture sort of this unrefinedability or talent that's there.
So that's what the faculty andpretty much teachers throughout
my school career did, because Ialways excelled in art, and
visual art, I could always drawreal good. So they started
pushing me in that direction.
And I knew, by the time I was13, that I wanted to do
(06:04):
something in Visual Arts, butprofessionally. So then I had
teachers in high school, andprobably as early as my freshman
year, saying, you know, if youwant a career in art, you have
to look into like graphicdesign, or advertising or
commercial art or somethingthat's lucrative. So that's kind
of where my head was at. Butthen I always had these outside
(06:26):
interests, like I had the comicbook, Jones that was always
there. And then I was meeting,and then hip hop just completely
came in and dominated. And thisis sort of like the nylon,
tracksuit era. So if I wasn't upin the art room, and that was
the other thing, you know, theart teachers would give me
(06:47):
assignments that wereindependent of the regular
classroom curriculum, because Iexcelled in art. And there were
maybe a handful of otherstudents that had similar
opportunities. But if I wasn'tup in the art room, which I was
there most of the time, and Iwas in front of the cafeteria.
Somebody had it radio gone, andwe were you know, getting it in.
(07:10):
Yeah, I always joked on it.
Whenever I'm around the youknow, or, or nyeem, or born, or
any of those, those pioneeringdancers for Boston? I would
always say, Yeah, I would dance,but I'll kind of keep it like
off to the side. Or, you know,they dominated the club scene
(07:31):
back then. Lansdowne was like,you know, that was their home.
So you could fuck around if youwere in there with your with
your people. If the floorboardscame through, he just stopped
immediately. Go do a littlesomething stopping. But now, you
(07:52):
guys was the defining moment forBoston.
Can you share any of theadventures you had with Rocky
and Track your old Saab?
How do you know about that? Whohave you been talking to?
bumping that Cypress Hill?
Wow. Wow. Yeah, those wereadventures.
(08:16):
Man, I remember one time, youjust mentioned phase two before
we started, and we did the show,we did an A-wall show with
Catro, Click one and Phase2. AndI remember I think the first
time I met phase was in NewYork, at you know where the
population is. So they used tohave like, all kinds of events.
(08:39):
It was right across the streetfrom Keith herrings old shop,
the pop shop up there and therewas like this new designer. I
think his clothing line wascalled to hide or something like
that. I think some of the girlsin positive case video have a
positive K. Yeah. I got a man orsomething like that. What's your
man got to do with me? I thinkone of the girls he was trying
(09:02):
to rap to pat on the too highgear. So he was doing like a was
a new designer. And he was hewas doing like a runway a
traditional runway show. So Ihad linked up with Cato. When I
got to town and I met phase andyou know phase did the magazine
The it times. So he gave me amagazine and I was hustling t
(09:25):
shirts. I did a T shirt on myown where I did a lot of
recognizable or historicalfigures within you know, civil
rights movement. So I had aMarcus Garvey t shirt and upon
Marley t shirt, Nelson Mandela tshirt, etc, etc, etc. So I just
(09:46):
gave him some t shirts and hegave me a couple of the magazine
and it was just like instant.
And then when we did the show inBoston, it was at a gallery.
This is way before that areadown. downtown Boston, you know,
Rose Wharf. That's all likesuper expensive. Now, this is
back when that area was sort ofbeing developed. So they had
(10:08):
there was a small little galleryman, everybody in their mother
was trying to get into thatshow. I don't want to put click
on class, because he he needs itwhen we talk about him, because
he's that he doesn't really dothe art stuff anymore, which is
a travesty. But I leave him outof it for the sake of, of this
conversation and just, you know,extending to him his proper
(10:29):
respect. But it blew my mindthat phase was even part of my
show. So I remember he came intotown with Vulcan. And I was in
the back. Because we were it wasan AWOL show, but the only three
artists but the whole crew wasthere. But the only three
artists that we were showcasing,were like I said, Katro Phase2
(10:51):
and click and phase had all ofthese pieces that were done,
just like black and white, likea white board. And then he did
almost like would look to me,like Sharpie magic marker. But
it was so intricate. And italmost looked like it was
freestyle right off the top ofhis head. And he was nailing
(11:11):
these pieces to actual frames.
So I was helping him nail andput frames around his work to be
showcased in our show. So that'sa memory never gonna let go of,
you know, that guy was like, Imean to be, who he is, and what
(11:32):
he represents for the cultureand to be able to call him a
friend. That's huge for me, youknow, but then after I knew him,
he was just like anybody thatyou know, that's a friend, but
really wouldn't figure withinthe culture for sure. You saw
how I just kind of avoided theSaab stories.
I saw that.
(11:53):
No need to incriminate yourself.
Fun times. Have fun time. Wewent to a De la Soul concert. De
la Soul came to Waltham,Brandeis, Brandeis. And we were
pushing that show I just sharedwith you about we have flyers.
(12:14):
And I remember handing Maceo aflyer and Maceo connected Phase2
right away. And then he asked mefor a couple more. So you can
hand them to somebody is bored.
But they did. They went fromwherever they were performing on
campus. To some somebody in thecrowd said after party. It's so
and so true. In that wholecrowd, wherever they were
(12:36):
performing on campus is this onestory the one story I'll tell
you, they came in extended onthis poor girl's dorm room. So
then a party, somebody got somesome commandeered some
turntables. They went in and itwas packed. And it spilled out
into the lawn. And and they wereall there just chopping it up
(12:57):
like regular people are therethey were all they're just kind
of surreal. But that's kind ofwhat what the vibe was back
then. He just kind of found yourway to things. And and everybody
was sort of an extension byassociation. So nobody looked at
anybody weird, like, like youtrying to hang on or whatever.
(13:20):
You know, we were all just byassociation. So it was just a
real natural kind of organickind of thing.
What year was that?
I had to have been early 90s.
Because that's when the show wasand we were we were promoting it
like crazy. That was the otherthing. We had a whole bunch of
people from New York that camethrough to, you know, just on,
(13:41):
you know, good faith was there.
volken was there it's probably awhole lot of other people there
that I didn't realize werethere. So, yeah, that had to
have been 91 ancient history.
How does the kid in high schoolwho loves comics now transition
to working with a major comicbook publisher?
I had no plan at all. All I hadwas like the positive examples
(14:07):
within my family. Because myfamily we we see so many people
within the family did art. Wehave a lot of that part hanging
up on the walls, you know, inthe houses that we grew up in a
good amount of that was our bymy uncles, and then Friends of
the family. So I think by thetime I was a teenager, it
(14:27):
evolved into more friends of thefamily. They were also artists
from the community by Paul Goodnight, Napoleon Jones,
Henderson, Nelson Stephens name,the Chandler, B'nai nevolin,
etc, etc. So, these are allpeople that I had access to
through my parents. So that evenmore so reinforced that notion
(14:49):
of Okay, this is something Iknow I want to do, and to have
that that resource, you know, tohave them be assessable to me,
was everything to me. So Ididn't really Have a plan. I
just knew I wanted to do withit. Because it looked cool. To
me that was success. You know, Iaspired to have my art hanging
(15:10):
on somebody's wall one day. Sothose are the examples I had.
You weren't like, you know, Ididn't aspire to be anything
outside of that. I kept it realsimple. And then it wasn't
until, like you said, I gotolder, and really started to
question what I wanted to dowith my life. And then I had
(15:32):
those thoughtful teachers try toguide me in the right
directions. So I would say, whenI graduated high school, I knew
based on the suggestions of myteachers in high school, that if
I was going to remain local,that I needed to look into
either mass art or museumschool. And I had one teacher,
(15:55):
in particular missense. Shesaid, she just really sold me on
museum school, I don't evenremember what she was saying, or
why it was so important to herthat I go there. But I went
there. And I'm glad I wentthere. Because that's when I got
connected with rocklea, DSseven, Dave Taylor. That's when
(16:15):
I met. That's when I met a wholelot of people who have remained
friends with me to this day, butimmediately, so I went through
art school, as a graphic designand illustration major. So the
second I graduated, I was tryingto get into the workforce and
make a living. So I interviewedan ad firm, that's no longer
(16:40):
around. I don't think they'rearound anymore Hill holiday. And
they were in the top of HancockTower, and Hill holiday, and
they were worldwide. They werein Germany, they were in Japan,
they were in Paris, and theywere here in Boston, and I
interviewed. But I had alsostarted sort of poking my nose
(17:03):
around in the comic bookindustry. Because I have a
natural drawn ability, I alwaysfelt like that's something that
I can do. And there were friendsof mine that were at school. And
we're going to places like svgain New York, Parsons or Pratt
Reis de, and they would get alittle pickup jobs here and
there, little fill ins forMarvel. So I send you I can do
(17:27):
that too. Long story short, Iwas waiting to hear back from a
Marvel editor on what's called aone shot. And if I asked you,
what do you think that means?
What do you think that means?
You got one chance to draw itbig? No?
Well, not one chance. But it'sone assignment. It's nothing.
But I was like, Well, I can takethat one shot and parlay that
(17:50):
into regular work, because youknow, I'm just that dope. So,
but I was waiting to hear backfrom that editor. So petal
holiday offered me whatever Iwanted to do, whether that be
freelance part time, full time,whatever. And I heard back from
that Marvel editor right away.
And I decided to pass on thelucrative aspects of full time
(18:15):
employment with dental benefits,and health insurance is not that
good stuff, to do this Marvelthing, because that was always,
you know, that was in my heartever since I was a kid. So I had
to see it through to see if Icould do it. So that's kind of
how it started. I gave myselfwhat I call self imposed
(18:36):
deadlines, because I wanted Iknew I needed to make a living
and a one shot wasn't gonna doit. So I wanted to give myself a
year to kind of learn themechanics of the industry.
Because as much as I thought Iknew, I didn't know a whole lot
about the business of comicbooks. I mean, I could draw real
good, but so could hundreds ofothers in the industry. So I
(19:00):
wanted to kind of arm myselfwith as much information as I
could, and then give myself ayear to turn it into something
full time and lucrative. If Itook more, I figured if I took
more time than a year, and I'mwasting my time, when I could
just go back to your holiday andhave full time employment. There
(19:21):
are so many years later, I tookthe comic book leap of faith,
and I enjoyed a career like twodecades long in Congress, you
know, and I kind of tookvacations and time off when I
wanted to. I sort of the natureof that industry. It's all
freelance and you know, you havecontractual arrangements, you
(19:44):
know, that come about, but it'sall what you can hustle. You
know, they pay you by andnegotiate everything and you can
go shoot your page rate,negotiate how much money it's
all really dependent. upon you,and how hard you hustle, it's
gonna determine how lucrativeit's going to be for you. So I
(20:05):
loved everything about it. Ilove when I was busy working
hard, real hard to stay busy.
That's when my hustle was themost severe when I was like,
busy working around the clock.
So that's, that's how itstarted.
And now after two decades ofexperience, if you could give
your younger self that wasstarting out that year of self
(20:28):
limit, one piece of advice, whatwould you tell yourself?
Great question, I think I wouldtell my younger self, or would
have tried to do both, I wouldhave tried to do the
advertising, and the comic bookson the side. But I think at that
age, and at that time in mylife, I just wanted to, like
(20:49):
dump everything into comics, youknow, because it was more like I
wanted to prove to myself that Icould do it. And I wanted to
deal with it, to do it, on myown terms, and by my own
definition, so I didn't want anyoutside interference or
distractions. I think that's whyI focus solely on that. But then
(21:10):
the other side of that, and thisis kind of the way I'm wired is
I wasn't comfortable with justone comic book assignment. So I
had to make sure I had otherthings on the side. And I worked
hard to make sure there's otherthings were laid out of studio
out there. And that's when wedid a whole lot of cool things
and music. You know, we hookedup with different record labels
(21:32):
to do our covers and CD coverart, things like that. But we I
always had something else goingon in the background. I didn't
feel comfortable if I didn't.
As an artist, have you ever hada time where you felt censored?
No. I mean, not centeredcensored in a traditional sense,
(21:54):
I would say. But if you'reworking on like for Marvel, or
DC, and you're working on preestablished characters, then
there's sort of like a formatthat you have to create within.
And that's for good reason. Youknow, you don't want to alienate
the fan base. And you want to doright by that character. And I
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think when I first broke intothe industry, it was a big deal
to be able to say I, you know, Iworked on Spider Man or X-Men or
Batman or whatever. But thenafter so many years, for me
anyway, that wasn't enoughanymore. Because I'm saying,
that's cool. But I don't own anyof those characters. Somebody
else owns all of that stuff, Iwant to do my own thing. And I
(22:38):
think every creator that worksin comics, after certain amount
of investment of so many years,it's just natural to question
diseases, I could do this, Icould do my own thing, you know,
and then you start sort ofsetting it out or laying that
groundwork to try your ownprojects. And I started doing
(22:58):
that, I would say when I wasstill living in New York, so
that's almost 20 years ago, I'mstill doing it now. But then I
also had a real desire to teach.
And a lot of my peers that werepursuing a career in comics, at
the same time, I was, theywouldn't comics broke for me,
and didn't for them, they wentinto teaching. So now there have
(23:21):
just as much investment inteaching, as I do in, you know,
working professional art and incomics. So it's kind of like,
I've always been a person whereI give any discipline, the
respect that it deserves. Ididn't want to just wake up one
morning and say, Okay, now Iwant to be a teacher. And think,
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Okay, I know, enough teachers,you know, so I should be able to
do that same thing with comicbooks, I thought I knew enough
about comic books to say, Okay,I know what that's involved with
what that's required to do thatstuff. And I should be able to
do that. But then there was awhole ton of information that I
didn't know, just about, like Isaid before, like the business
(24:03):
side of it, and the mechanics ofit. So teaching was the same
thing I didn't want to, and thisis where I guess my young self
meets up with my little bitolder self, we kind of sort of
remember again, where I'm sayingthis time, I don't want to
abandon one for the other, I canstill do the art and do the
(24:23):
teaching thing. And that's kindof where I am right now. You
know, not a whole lot haschanged, and so many years, but
I really enjoy teaching. I seeso many I teach young kids. So I
see a lot of myself, in themthat energy and that and that
just fuels me and inspires me.
(24:47):
I feel technology has replaced amentor disciple connection for
young artists.
Yeah, I would agree. I wouldagree. And I come from that kind
of generation. So I'm always I'mlike a walking throwback. I
always try to, to reintroduceit. It's like a sensibility,
(25:08):
like hip hop is just as much ofan attitude, and a sensibility
that for individuals likeourselves, who we've we've lived
it. So it's, it's so much a partof who we are, that we can't
help but infuse it andincorporate it in everything
(25:29):
that we do. So it's in the waythat I relate to these kids. And
they're not even conscious ofit. Sometimes, as it's, it's a
deliberate attempt on my part,but other times is totally
unconscious. So, technology, formost of us, I would say, it
(25:50):
enhances what we do. I neverwant to be a slave to it, in a
lot of ways. I'm a dinosaur, inmy thinking, because I like to
fall back to traditional methodsof problem solving, and trying
to get people engaged. But Ithink getting young people
(26:11):
excited. In the same way, we gotexcited when we were introduced
to the culture that ensures thecontinued evolution of the
culture that ensures that it cancontinue to, to live, but you
have to get them engaged first,they got to get turned on by it
in the same way that we gotturned on by it. And then then
(26:34):
they become inspired. And theyhave to know the real, they
can't get misguided and Missscrewed information. And I think
that's when people again, likeourselves, it's almost like a
responsibility, where self care,all that stuff on the radio or
on TV, just just forget aboutthat for a minute. Come hang out
(26:57):
with me and listen to what I gotto say. I think those core
elements, they resonate withevery generation, if they're
introduced to it in the rightway. I'm a firm believer of
that. Because coming from theworld of comic books, like I'll
call myself an artist, andstoryteller, that's how I refer
to myself. I'm a, I'm an artist,and a storyteller. And if you
(27:19):
think about how expressive hiphop is, from all of the
elements, it's all storytelling,if you think about it, and
that's how I present it to youngpeople. I don't know any young
person who doesn't have vividimagination. I mean, when I was
12, 13, my mind was all over theplace. And that's most kids. So
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you just have to give themlicense to say, okay, all of
those crazy rockets going offinside your head. That's cool.
And let me show you how tochannel that and direct that to
a place in a way where it'spositive. I think if we all of
back to those elements, or thosethose aspects of the culture
(28:04):
that really, that we really fellin love with. It was that it was
something that innocent and thatpure, you know, they grabbed
ahold of us.
You're teaching a course on theimportance of hip hop culture
and African American culture oncomics.
Yeah, I did a workshop at BU in2015, called connection, because
(28:25):
comic books are socialcommentary. And they've always
been social commentary. But doyou think rap music rap music is
the same thing, music ingeneral. And let's toss around
some names. songwriters, likereally good songwriters like
john lennon, or Stevie Wonder,or Bob Marley or Bob Dylan?
(28:47):
Hendrix. I mean, the list goeson and on, especially Dylan, and
Marley. And guys from the 60s,you remember the protest songs
that were protesting the VietnamWar, just a precursor to the
conscious rap. It came about inthe 80s, like when you had like,
(29:09):
native tongues, ex clan, even dela, the jungle brothers, black
sheep. I mean, it's like theywere all for gangstar. They were
all from that era, where theywere talking about something
that was socially relevant post,they were also politically
conscious. A lot of people goteducated by listening to rap
(29:30):
records that would be remiss ifI didn't mention Public Enemy to
slip. But so many other examplesbrand new being so all that is
is an extension of the protestsongs. And our Vietnam was like
that for that first Desert Stormwar, that first Cold War back in
(29:50):
the 80s, or whatever it was, andwe got a myriad of different
examples present day that wecould draw from. So again,
thanks Use that artists do theartistic license to talk about
what they see. Because what theysee is what all of us see, you
know, it's not a one one sidedkind of thing. They're not
(30:14):
talking about champagne anddiamonds and chicks and Spence,
rims or whatever, they'retalking about things that are
affecting everybody. So what Idid with the workshop was, I
made that comparison, like Ijuxtapose comic books as being
social commentary. As far backas like, there was an
(30:36):
underground comics movement, youtalk about censorship, that's
why they will call undergroundfor a reason. I mean, anyway,
like, whether it was the subjectmatter was just too raunchy, you
know, in the form of like,overtly sexual, or real harsh
criticism of the war, orwhatever it was, it was not from
(30:56):
mainstream. So they developtheir own audience. And in doing
so they created their ownplatform. So I wanted the
students to be you to thinkabout how they can connect
music, and visual art. And itwas teaching them the basic
(31:18):
fundamentals of comic books, buta natural understanding of basic
drawing fundamentals wasrequired. Because I didn't want
to waste a whole lot of time,trying to teach people how to
draw, I wanted people thatalready knew how to draw to come
in there so that they have that.
And then we could really diveinto some of the possibilities
of how they can infuse music andvisual art, to tell a story that
(31:41):
would bring the world together.
That would be a vehicle forconnection, and peace. And all
that's it. I mean, it soundskind of corny, but if you think
about it, it's a basic,fundamental commonality that we
(32:05):
all share globally as a planet.
Yeah, and it went over realgood. Yeah, I'm always I'm
always looking to different waysof expression, but then also
pushing the things that I love,also, like, I'm a product of hip
hop. But then I also have thisdeep love and respect for comic
(32:25):
book industry. And the wholelanguage of sequential art, not
only as a teaching tool, but butas an art form, unnecessary art
form, and an incredibly credibleteaching tool. So that's what
that was about.
Mass rock against racism justcelebrated their 40th
(32:47):
anniversary this year. Can youtell us more about this
movement?
so more ancient history. That'sanother good example, though.
This is like Boston, when I wascoming up, it was very
segregated. And, I mean, I hadfriends that might have lived in
South Boston or Charles town orwherever, but I knew enough not
to be in those neighborhoodsafter dark. And in certain
(33:10):
areas, you know, back then, youknow, in Dorchester, Roxbury,
mattapan, certain white folk notto be in those areas. You know,
there was the whole busingthing. And you guys may have,
you know, heard about the wholebusing thing in Boston. I didn't
personally experience it. But Ihad friends that were my age
(33:31):
that so you have a program, likera or match rock against racism,
man, that was like a godsend forso many of us kids. And that's
how a lot of us met New Kids onthe Block before they were the
new kids on the block. A littlehip hop kids, man, they dance,
you know, especially Danny. Hedid that in the hip hop label
(33:53):
called damage records. T Max washis first artists that was
signed to the label and I do thelogo. But they had like this
little office at UMass Bostondowntown, right across from Park
Plaza. That was just like ameeting place. They had one area
of the room that has been oleumdown. And they had another
(34:15):
corner of the room that had theturntable setup. And you had all
the writers over here in theirblack books. It was like a
sanctuary and no judgment. Andthese kids came from every
corner of the city. They theywere from Roxbury. They were
from Quincy. It was fromsouthie. They were from
Brookline. They were fromNewton, Somerville. And none of
(34:38):
that mattered. It was that sortof like we were talking about
earlier that association. Youknow, we were all connected to
an extended family. We justdidn't realize it until we
walked through that door. Andthen we realized it. And there
was something for everybody. Andthat was like my favorite place
(34:58):
in the world. To hang out it, wedidn't even know what we were
doing was so important as ittranslates to the landscape of
the city at that time. And whatwe were doing as kids, we were
serious change agents. If youthink about it, you know what we
were laying down for futuregenerations to follow. We had no
(35:20):
idea the might, maybe a littlebit, but we really didn't
realize the impact and thesignificance of what we were
doing. We did shows but majorshout out to Fran Smith, and
Ruby Garrett's follow me biggerfollow was an actual teacher at
UMass. And Fran Smith was astudent, a teaching student. So
(35:43):
Fran, really wasn't that mucholder than we were. I mean, she
was probably 20. And we werelike, 1314. But they taught us
how to, like work together, youknow, and respect each other,
independent of what area of thecity from what suburb or
whatever has taught us how to,like create, together, you know,
(36:04):
all in the name of art, or artslash hip hop. You know that. I
mean, I met so many people thatare, I would say, significant
contributors to the culture ofhip hop here in Boston. And then
it's funny, Fran tells thisstory about how guys like Leno
and the Lord's and born from theDomino's, they wanted to be able
(36:30):
to do shows with us, you know,with with AR AR, and Fran made
them audition just likeeverybody else. And I don't I
don't know if Leto was offended.
But I know based on friendsstories, that Bourne was like,
I'm not edition in for anythingunique Domino Domino's, and
we're not all over the place.
(36:52):
And then you probably heard ofHBO homeboys only. Yeah. I mean,
all of that was happening at thesame time. So that was like the
city was electric back then. Butwe as kids really changed that
whole segregation, racialdynamic that existed. And
looking back on it now. It waspowerful. The stuff that you
(37:16):
know, brought Run DMC the town,had some some of these are AR
kids opening up for Run DMC Imean, never. And I mean, Run DMC
was at the top of their, theywere in their prime back then.
So the channel they had theyhosted a lot of rock shows. And,
but that that was major. Thatwas major as history right
(37:39):
there. But get a podium beforeyour birthday celebration. That
was beautiful. That wasbeautiful. It was sort of like a
an offshoot of this archivingevent that we had the previous
year where we did a throughUMass Amherst, and the Healy
library, and mass hip hoparchive. A shout out to Pacey
(38:03):
Forrester, he documented a lotof material from an artifacts
from just not just us coming up.
But anybody, they opened thedoors to the community, and
anybody that had stuff thatwould be significant to add to
the archive. So now that's partof their permanent and archive.
Yeah, the last time we saw eachother in person was at the 40th
(38:26):
anniversary of RAR.
Yeah, I saw so many people Ihadn't seen in years.
So you have a new residency atthe MFA. Can you describe what
what that means?
Yeah, that's really, that's areal cool project. And this
started prior to COVID. I feellike COVID-19 came through and
(38:46):
completely derailed everybody'shopes and dreams all over the
world. So they did the samething with our residency. But we
have been resilient in themoment. And we're soldiering
forward. So we are going to havea physical opening at the end of
this year. I don't know whatit's gonna look like yet.
Because you can see when peoplestart to get back to reopening,
(39:10):
and you're seeing cases of thevirus starting to spike again.
Any idiot could have said what'sgoing to happen. But I digress.
But yeah, last May, pro black,Rob Gibbs. He has a neuro series
called breathe life. So he's gota real beautiful mural in
Dorchester. But the little boy,what I love about this, this
(39:33):
brother's work, and I've knownhim for a long time. I think the
beautiful thing about Boston andour sort of history of being
connected from from generationto generation is when when we
had a wall RS without limits. Wewere just kids hanging out, but
(39:54):
we all shared a common interest.
You know, we all really had thisJones to do art and Just due to
really great art, and, and we,that challenged ourselves and
and it's sort of like that'slike the essence in the spirit
of hip hop. It's almost like,you know, you got to show and
prove if your crewmate is rightthere and you got to represent.
(40:16):
So it's that kind of thing. Wekept each other fresh and on
point. That was the firingthing. And there was a group
called Africa Cobra, from the60s. And some of the artists
that I had mentioned when wefirst started talking the Polian
Henderson, Nelson Stevens, theywere part of this, this movement
(40:38):
called an Africa was an acronymfor African commune of Bad, bad
meaning good, relevant artists.
And they found it in the 60s 68.
They were sort of like ourblueprint for a wall, and in a
wallet inspired a la, AfricanLatino Alliance, pro black zone
quest, Mark 27. And now theyhave, they've spawned all of
(41:03):
these disciples of the youngergeneration and look up to them
like gods. So pro always had theutmost respect for him. And he's
done amazing things with his artcareer. So it's kind of nice to
show that connection locally,you know, from from generation
to generation, and the respectthat's always been there, and no
(41:25):
animosity. You know, I think allof that beef and animosity
that's, that's more like a NewYork thing. It's never, from my
experience, it's never been aBoston thing. We've always at
least my my era, we've alwaystried to build each other up and
encourage each other and supporteach other. And we have the
opportunity to me and pro tolink up on this project. It was
(41:48):
almost like a no brainer, like,why didn't we think of it and
shout out to mckaela McCreary,she had the foresight to put us
together. Go back a bit. I hadmentioned something and then
almost forgot to give you alittle bit more detail. So pro
black had the dedication to themural that's on Fremont Street,
(42:09):
across from the piano factory.
That's his latest one, with theboy and the girl on her
shoulders. So he had justfinished that in May of last
year. And I was at an event thatmckeeva mccrary at the MFA was
hosting with a whole lot ofcommunity teachers, and it's a
roundtable discussion. And wewent directly from there to the
(42:33):
dedication of pros mural in thesouth then. So that was a great
day. That was like this bigpremiere for like this movie,
this incredible movie that youcan't wait to see and everybody
in the neighborhood sales reallygood. So long story short,
McKeever wanted to know ormckeeva had the foresight to try
and bring that energy into theMFA. So there were a couple of
(42:56):
things that were going on at theMFA at the time, they were right
on the cusp of the hundred and50th anniversary of the MFA. So
there was a whole lot ofprogramming around that. And
then there was this littleexhibit called writing in the
future. bask in the hip hopgeneration. So I'm being
(43:18):
sarcastic. That's like a hugedeal, because basky has never
been exhibited in the MFA ever,let alone his contemporaries. So
she connected us directly withthat exhibition. So I actually
have pieces that I did intribute form that were mixed
(43:39):
media g clay on canvas, that aregoing originally were to be
displayed at the exit of theexhibit, and sort of a paying
homage to a lot of thosepioneering artists that laid
down the foundation, but theartists who are featured in the
exhibit basky on of course,teacher, Lady pink MLC, Fab
(44:03):
Five, Freddy Leake, known asKeith Haring toxic LA to cool
core, but if you're not familiarwith any of these artists,
definitely look them up inGoogle. They defined an era that
I know everybody from my era wasturned on by and inspired by.
This is sort of like whenShepard Fairey was coming up and
(44:26):
Kenny Scharf, 80s 80s in Bostonin New York. I mean, if you were
like me, I was back and forth toNew York in the 80s all the
time. So to be given anopportunity to have anything to
do with a groundbreaking exhibitlike that. I mean, who would
have thought that the MFA inBoston would ever host I mean,
(44:49):
just basky out alone is a bigdeal. But all of those people at
the same time, and there was allthis other programming. There
were panel discussions. blockparties with DJs. It was really
recreating the whole essence ofthose significant aspects of the
culture that define the culturereally define the movement, and
(45:14):
COVID just came through and justwiped it all away. So most of
the companion events got knockedout. But recently, as a matter
of fact, we just gotconfirmation that physical
exhibit will remain in Bostonuntil the end of the year. So
what the MFA did was theyoffered a residency to myself
(45:36):
and pro black. And to myunderstanding, that's the first
time a residency or the MFA hasoffered residency to local
artists. So, so we're kind ofblazing a trail. And being the
first, obviously, a lot ofpeople are being resilient in
the moment, like this zoneconversation, and teaching
(45:58):
online and just rethinkingdifferent ways of how we just
move and maneuver through lifeand business. So a lot of that
is being introduced on the web,that, you know, originally,
people would have experiencedphysically in a traditional
exhibition format. So we have aprogram book that was flipped
comic book style, that was myidea, kind of took the format of
(46:22):
old school Marvel Comics, andhad the same kind of layout and
prose logos on it. And my logoson here, the MFA Logo is on
their, Pro is actually doing acommunity mural, I don't think
the kids are going to beinvolved anymore. But it's with
Madison Park High. So if you'refamiliar with pro black, he's
one of the founders of artistsfor humanities. And he heads up
(46:45):
the painting program down there.
So he's gonna have his studentspartner up with Madison Park
High students to do thecommunity mural on the exterior
of Madison Park High. So thatwas one thing, it was a three
part event that we werecollaborating on as artists and
residents. So let me roll wasone part of the program book was
(47:07):
another and theIs there a film and a film
documentary?
Why did that slip my mind.
And that would be coming outsoon. Because they did the
teaser trailer last month.
Looking forward to that, thatwas a lot of fun to do. For
(47:29):
people who may know of us, butnot know that much about us. I
think it's a nice little windowinto you know who we are
artists. And then behind the artis nice and evenly balanced. It
really shows the mutual respect,you know, we share between each
other. So it's really great. Allright, all the way around beyond
(47:51):
measure, local film company,they produce that.
I mean, I can see why withBasquiat and a lot of the people
you named were collaboratorswith him as well. And so you
collaborating with thisresidency, it kind of goes with
the same theme of that as well,being able to bring better
reach.
(48:12):
All of those artists were hiscontemporaries. And I just keep
bringing it back to hip hopagain, it's it's just so pure
and innocent. It's like what wewere all doing as kids back in
the day, and I might have knowncause or cash, God rest his
soul. What maze was zone?
And, you know, hey, what do youdo? To try and get a show
(48:35):
somewhere? I mean, it was justlike that, you know, that kind
of commonplace? And all of thebusiness are, how much are you
gonna make and how much did thatwas all like, over there. It was
always about the art first. Andyou look back on how those
luminaries, how they came up. Itwas the similar kind of thing.
(48:57):
They were just products of theirenvironment. It's almost like
they didn't realize they weredoing something so phenomenal.
Until all of these hordes ofpeople started coming in and
trying to get a piece of themand telling them Oh my god,
you're incredible. You're great.
You're this, you're that. Andsome of them didn't want to take
that ride. Some of them theirtheir attitude was some of the
writers and graffiti artists.
(49:18):
Their attitude was no I'm, I'm awriter, I'm a group. I'm a
bomber. You know, I'm not. Ididn't start bombing to take
trips to Paris and fly all overthe world as started bombing to
destroy frickin train lines. Youknow, I'm not with all of that
caviar and Champagne stuff. ButI think it was very similar with
(49:41):
us to was that innocence, butthen that it was coupled with
that excitement. layer, youknow, we could do anything.
And you've done so many thingsand you're still involved in so
many projects. What do you do tomaintain focus? How do you
balance it all?
This might sound a little selfabsorbed. But that's easy for
(50:03):
me. I have blogs from time totime, like everybody, but my
takeaway from this wholequarantine pandemic. And now
uprising, I mean, where do Ibegin is a whole myriad of stuff
to pull from an inspirationdoesn't always have to be rosy
and positive inspiration canenrage you, but you're inspired.
(50:28):
And I feel lucky, and fortunateto be able to have a disability
where I can channel thatredirect that, and doesn't
necessarily have to be amasterpiece that I would want to
display somewhere. But it's away of getting that out of my
system. And not fully out of mysystem. But getting it out there
(50:49):
and playing around with it. Iknow a lot of artists that feel
the same way, and have sort oflike a similar approach and
format to how to deal withthings. I've always been very
grateful for that ability to beable to express myself in a way
that I that I have, or that Ican. And this whole experience
(51:14):
hasn't been short of that, Ineed to pay a little bit better
attention to self care. See,I've always been a slim dude and
put on a little bit of puttingput a couple of pounds on so
that's not a good look for me.
So, but that's a reminder, youknow, okay, you kill kids.
Creativity hasn't waned, but youkind of slack in in other areas.
(51:35):
So tighten that up. But um,yeah, inspiration is so many
places, so many sources to drawfrom. I've never been starved on
that, especially now, I got afew private challenges I'm not
going to speak about in a wholelot of great detail, but a
couple of our buddies of minefrom New York, our mission is
when the smoke finally clears.
(51:59):
And we get on the other side ofthis madness, if that even ever
happens. But I'm optimistic thatit will, then we're hitting up
the galleries. So you have likespecific number of pieces that
we need to create new pieces bynothing that you posted online,
Robin's got to be new. In turn,we're inspiring each other. Once
(52:20):
as simple. I have a habit ofposting things that I'm kind of
sort of in the process ofcreating. Can I do that? And
he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah,sure. But just knowing that
people you care about, and we'reall living through the same
thing. You know, we're alltaking it day by day. And that's
the way to do it. Just knowingthat there's somebody else out
there even this interactiontoday, you know, with what we're
(52:43):
doing, talking about, you know,that the common thread here is
this culture that we all love.
That's why I was no, absolutelylooking forward to sharing some
time with you guys today. Butyeah, so that inspiration is
everywhere. Especially theyouth, you just take a walk
outside, and it's everywhere.
I was curious to know how youfelt about the new Spider Man.
(53:06):
Love it. I saw the movie, theanimated one.
I love the hip hop influence init.
Yeah, I liked that. And that wasundeniable and on purpose. But I
like the little nuance II thingsthat they did, where they almost
superimposed little comic bookelements, like blatant. And
(53:27):
sometimes if you blinked youmissed it. You know, it was
almost subliminal in areas. Butit's almost like they had like
the superimposed dot pattern.
Like if you were like a kid inthe old comic books, you take a
magnifying glass to the pages,and you'd see all the little
dots with the color and blown upyou don't really see that too
(53:48):
much anymore, because most ofthe books are colored by
computer now but that was likesome old school throwback shit
that I didn't think a whole lotof people would catch to little
nuances like that, that theydid. They were all throughout
the movie just sort ofhaphazard, scattered about. I
thought it was amazing. And Ihave some friends that the
conceptual art for that movie.
(54:11):
I'm not gonna put them on blast,because their egos are already
overblown. Just kidding.
Is there anything else you wouldlike to talk about or express to
our listeners?
I think we nailed it. I think Iwould just tell people if if
there was ever something thatyou wanted to do, your real
(54:31):
passionate about. And it'spositive, not to beat yourself
up with the what ifs? What ifI'm not good enough? Or what if
I'm not, you know, what if Idon't make it or what if I don't
just invest the time as opposedto watching the years go by and
then saying I should have didthat? Because that's what hip
(54:51):
hop for us. And I'm speakinglocally, it was just all around.
So it was just what we did askids It wasn't like a trend that
we were following. And theneverybody that we knew did the
same thing. So it's like, oddsare, I mean, we could be on a
train somewhere, and some kidwill be in his black book, and
(55:13):
then another kid over there. Andit was just a common kind of
thing. So you just almostassumed that anybody that you
met at that time, that was inyour age or age range, that they
were into the same things thatyou were, it was that powerful,
to just take advantage of thoseopportunities. I think RAR, we
(55:34):
were talking about, we didn'trealize the significance and the
power of what we were doinguntil years after the fact. But
we really helped to contributeto changing the racial climate
and landscape of this city.
people outside of Boston, I'msure you guys know, they hear
horror stories about Boston,Boston now is nothing like it's
(55:56):
not perfect, but it's nothinglike it was when I was coming up
in a generation just before me.
And I feel proud in saying thatmy generation helped change all
of that. Yes, that's what Iwould tell, especially the
(56:16):
younger listeners, you know, ifthere's something that you're
into, like you seen a lot ofyoung people out here, like you
saw young people out thereprotesting the Gulf War, when
the first bush was in office, mydays and protesting, and
especially during a globalpandemic, I think I'm pretty
much over with, but Iunderstand, and I support and
(56:37):
applaud their desire to be outthere. Because they're fed up.
It's like this, this is raginginside of them. So the older
heads like me will say, I'm notgoing to be out there. But then
the younger people say, I haveno choice but to be you know,
and I respect that. And to me,that's positive, because the
change changes. They're layingdown that landscape. And I was
(57:01):
talking to my friend, the secondthat I saw the Floyd murder on
TV, like we all did. And thenyou saw that stuff happened
almost instantaneously. Thatwhole uprising is swept across
the country, and it traveled thewhole globe. So I was saying
this is different. This is acombination of Rodney King,
(57:21):
Landrieu. Castiel, and EricGarner, and Briana Taylor, and
Freddie Gray, and on and on andon Tamir Rice, and on and on and
on. But this is different. Andwe see and why this is
different. So how is this timegonna manifest 10 years from
(57:42):
now? You don't know. But it's avery interesting time to be
alive. And I for one, with allthe craziness that's going on in
uncertainty, I'm glad I'm hereand experiencing it. You know,
cuz we're eventually going toget to the other side of it. I'm
gonna make sure I'm still aroundand doing what I need to do.
Take care of me in mind. I hopeyou all do the same. And so we
(58:07):
can have a story to tell on theother side. Yeah.
Well, as we're starting to wrapup, we want to roll out the red
carpet for you. Can you let ourlisteners know, you know where
they can find you and how theycan support you.
Oh, for sure. RobStull.com - I'mon social media, even though I'm
(58:27):
not a big fan of social media.
I'm RobStull24 on Twitter, thatI'm barely on anymore. And
RobStull24 on Instagram. I'm onFacebook. Facebook is kind of
pissing me off. I don't knowwhat's going on with Zuckerberg.
But it's RobStull24 and I amRobStull on Facebook,
we end (58:49):
What is hip hop to you?
Oh, wow, life - Life. I didn'tstart this hashtag but I rapid
art life. Because to me, art andlife are intrinsic. It's almost
like there's no line betweenthem. For me. art for me is life
(59:10):
itself. I draw every day. I tryto be creative in some kind of
way every day, even if I'm notdrawing, even if I'm just
sitting around andconceptualizing something. Hip
Hop is life. I thank God that Iwas sort of like, an offspring
of that first generation. So I'mnot I'm not that old to be like
(59:35):
the first generation, but I'm anoffspring of the first
generation. So I got it pure.
And I'm glad that I did. Becauseyou talk to a lot of these kids.
And when I say kids, I meananywhere from 10 to 17. And you
ask them what they think hip hopis. They'll quote some rapper on
(59:55):
the radio. I don't know No, youknow, that's not hip hop at all.
That's rap music. And we didn'tget into that. But I always
argue that there's a distinctdifference between hip hop
culture and hip hop music andrap music. two totally different
(01:00:18):
things.
Thank you so much to our guests,Rob, for taking the time and
being so open while sharing yourperspective with us.
Some of the gems we took awayfrom this interview were
Strong emotions can be a greatsource of inspiration. Negative
(01:00:39):
experiences can be channeled andused as creative fuel just as
much as positive ones.
The ripple effect of encouragingenvironments can lead to great
individual and social change.
Common things can lead toexceptional outcomes by doing
them with the right people. Whenyou share your imagination, it
creates collaboration which inturn, nurtures a community.
(01:01:01):
our theme music was beatboxed byDenis the Menace and produced by
Zede, a big shout out to thebrothers from Switzerland.
Also, a big shout out to ourbrother Christopher Barns, aka
Trackyou already know. And Mali, You
already know.
If you would like to support ourshow, you can buy us a coffee by
(01:01:22):
clicking on the link in the shownotes. We would love to get your
feedback, questions and anysuggestions you might have. You
can reach out to us onInstagram, Twitter or Facebook
@SoulidarityLLC or via emailsoulidarityllc@gmail.com
If you liked today's show,please tell a friend about our
(01:01:44):
podcast. Or as Phife Dawg wouldsay: Tell your mother, tell your
father, sent a telegram.
in our next episode we welcomeEast-3.
East-3 is a lifelong writer, hiphop practitioner, designer,
multimedia artist, entrepreneur,accountant and educator. He
lives in Hawaii and representsthe Rock Force Crew.
(01:02:05):
Don't forget to subscribe to theshow and leave a rating and
review. See you on our nextepisode. Thank you for listening
to our podcast.
No, seriously. Thank you.
I am Candy. I am DJ Razor Cut.
This is Souls of Hip Hop
Welcome to Souls of Hip Hop, a podcast for hip hop heads
that aims to bring inspiringpeople together to share their
wisdom, passion, and uniquestories.
My name is Candy, and I'm DJRazor Cut.
And together we are Soulidarity,connecting souls organically.
(00:26):
On today's show, we welcome RobStull. Rob is a comic book
industry veteran who has workedfor every major publisher. He is
also a teacher, a Museum of FineArts Boston artist in residence,
and an Isabella Stewart GardnerMuseum luminary. Thank you so
much for joining us and jumpingon our podcast.
(00:48):
How would your parents describewhat you do?
An artist, really. Just artists- that sums it up perfectly.
There were so many artists in myfamily, you know, my uncle's
taught art, one uncle was aceramicist. Another uncle was a
drawing instructor, a drawingprofessor, my father's an
architect, retired architect.
Everybody just did art. Sogrowing up, it wasn't like an
(01:09):
unusual kind of thing. It wasalways around. You know,
everybody was always doingsomething. So I was predisposed
to it. You know, I wasintroduced to it at such a young
age, it was just a natural kindof thing. Visual Art.
What was Boston like during yourchildhood?
When I was a kid, I was reallyquiet, really quiet and shy. And
(01:32):
I remember I went to this schoolthat I hated. And it had you
guys probably don't remember thelittle school buses, like the
station wagon school buses thatwould pick you up? You guys
remember those? Or am I datingmyself? No, I didn't think so.
So they would pull the kids thatthat took that ride with me.
(01:52):
That would just terrorize you.
And I was such a quiet, shy kid.
I hated that school bus ride. Itwasn't even a school bus. It was
just like a station wagon. Ithad little school bus sign on
the top of it. But I rememberdrawing like images from that
experience going to that school.
So it wasn't like it was aconverted warehouse. I don't
(02:16):
even remember what part ofBoston it was. I just know that
I hated it. But it left anundeniable impression on me.
Because it's I think in in a lotof ways, it woke up a lot of
that creative energy. Butthat's, that's going back as as
far as I can remember growingup. I was living in Boston, sort
of close to Kenmore square area.
(02:41):
In the Back Bay. This is beforethe Back Bay was like impossible
to live financially. It wasactually affordable. It was a
lower rent district. Nobody everbelieves that. But it was it was
it was kind of affordable backthen. But I actually went to
public school in Brookline. Andthat was a positive experience,
(03:02):
What made it positive?
That's when I started meetingpeople. That kind of
contributed, I would say to theshaping and forming of my
character, you start meetingpeople that are into the same
things that you are, you know,things like that. That's when I
really got into hip hop. I wasalways a comic book head though.
comic books were there fromkindergarten. So I was always a
(03:26):
comic book head, you know, meand some of my classmates in
grade school. It's funny, like,I think creative people, we sort
of gravitate to people that aresort of have like an like minded
interest. So I had like, most ofmy immediate friends were
artistically inclined. So wewould basically do our version
(03:47):
of whatever the popular comicbooks that we like, or that we
read, and we would do likeknockoff versions and create our
own characters and our own comicbooks and things like that, too.
But by high school, that's whenI started meeting people, the
unique dominoes, floor lords,and other graffiti artists. It
(04:09):
wasn't like we were all I know,for me, it wasn't like I was
focused on one specific aspector element of the culture. It
was just the culture alltogether. You know, we were just
all into hip hop. And then therewere people that did several
different things. There was somepeople that I met that did
graffiti, a DJ, that break theywill be boys. So what's that
(04:31):
kind of thing? And it just kindof happened. It just sort of
evolved out of out of thin airalmost. But it wasn't like it
was presented to us. You knowwhat I mean? And I think it's
because I experienced it when Iwas so young, you know, wasn't
like this is hip hop. It justsort of gradually kind of came
into our lives.
Like what you said about youknow, meeting other creative
(04:54):
people and I believe hip hop isone of those cultures that
allows people to expressthemselves. And why a lot of
creative people gravitatetowards it. How did that
experience of meeting the peoplein the culture getting involved
in it? How did that influenceyou as a person?
Influence?! it completelydominated my life. So I just
(05:20):
backtrack a little bit, youknow, if you're fortunate enough
to go to a good school, and thefaculty there, they take
interest in the students, likethere's a kid that excels in
sports, or is no good at actingor track or whatever it is, then
they will take an interest inthat student and try to help
(05:42):
nurture sort of this unrefinedability or talent that's there.
So that's what the faculty andpretty much teachers throughout
my school career did, because Ialways excelled in art, and
visual art, I could always drawreal good. So they started
pushing me in that direction.
And I knew, by the time I was13, that I wanted to do
(06:04):
something in Visual Arts, butprofessionally. So then I had
teachers in high school, andprobably as early as my freshman
year, saying, you know, if youwant a career in art, you have
to look into like graphicdesign, or advertising or
commercial art or somethingthat's lucrative. So that's kind
of where my head was at. Butthen I always had these outside
(06:26):
interests, like I had the comicbook, Jones that was always
there. And then I was meeting,and then hip hop just completely
came in and dominated. And thisis sort of like the nylon,
tracksuit era. So if I wasn't upin the art room, and that was
the other thing, you know, theart teachers would give me
(06:47):
assignments that wereindependent of the regular
classroom curriculum, because Iexcelled in art. And there were
maybe a handful of otherstudents that had similar
opportunities. But if I wasn'tup in the art room, which I was
there most of the time, and Iwas in front of the cafeteria.
Somebody had it radio gone, andwe were you know, getting it in.
(07:10):
Yeah, I always joked on it.
Whenever I'm around the youknow, or, or nyeem, or born, or
any of those, those pioneeringdancers for Boston? I would
always say, Yeah, I would dance,but I'll kind of keep it like
off to the side. Or, you know,they dominated the club scene
(07:31):
back then. Lansdowne was like,you know, that was their home.
So you could fuck around if youwere in there with your with
your people. If the floorboardscame through, he just stopped
immediately. Go do a littlesomething stopping. But now, you
(07:52):
guys was the defining moment forBoston.
Can you share any of theadventures you had with Rocky
and Track your old Saab?
How do you know about that? Whohave you been talking to?
bumping that Cypress Hill?
Wow. Wow. Yeah, those wereadventures.
(08:16):
Man, I remember one time, youjust mentioned phase two before
we started, and we did the show,we did an A-wall show with
Catro, Click one and Phase2. AndI remember I think the first
time I met phase was in NewYork, at you know where the
population is. So they used tohave like, all kinds of events.
(08:39):
It was right across the streetfrom Keith herrings old shop,
the pop shop up there and therewas like this new designer. I
think his clothing line wascalled to hide or something like
that. I think some of the girlsin positive case video have a
positive K. Yeah. I got a man orsomething like that. What's your
man got to do with me? I thinkone of the girls he was trying
(09:02):
to rap to pat on the too highgear. So he was doing like a was
a new designer. And he was hewas doing like a runway a
traditional runway show. So Ihad linked up with Cato. When I
got to town and I met phase andyou know phase did the magazine
The it times. So he gave me amagazine and I was hustling t
(09:25):
shirts. I did a T shirt on myown where I did a lot of
recognizable or historicalfigures within you know, civil
rights movement. So I had aMarcus Garvey t shirt and upon
Marley t shirt, Nelson Mandela tshirt, etc, etc, etc. So I just
(09:46):
gave him some t shirts and hegave me a couple of the magazine
and it was just like instant.
And then when we did the show inBoston, it was at a gallery.
This is way before that areadown. downtown Boston, you know,
Rose Wharf. That's all likesuper expensive. Now, this is
back when that area was sort ofbeing developed. So they had
(10:08):
there was a small little galleryman, everybody in their mother
was trying to get into thatshow. I don't want to put click
on class, because he he needs itwhen we talk about him, because
he's that he doesn't really dothe art stuff anymore, which is
a travesty. But I leave him outof it for the sake of, of this
conversation and just, you know,extending to him his proper
(10:29):
respect. But it blew my mindthat phase was even part of my
show. So I remember he came intotown with Vulcan. And I was in
the back. Because we were it wasan AWOL show, but the only three
artists but the whole crew wasthere. But the only three
artists that we were showcasing,were like I said, Katro Phase2
(10:51):
and click and phase had all ofthese pieces that were done,
just like black and white, likea white board. And then he did
almost like would look to me,like Sharpie magic marker. But
it was so intricate. And italmost looked like it was
freestyle right off the top ofhis head. And he was nailing
(11:11):
these pieces to actual frames.
So I was helping him nail andput frames around his work to be
showcased in our show. So that'sa memory never gonna let go of,
you know, that guy was like, Imean to be, who he is, and what
(11:32):
he represents for the cultureand to be able to call him a
friend. That's huge for me, youknow, but then after I knew him,
he was just like anybody thatyou know, that's a friend, but
really wouldn't figure withinthe culture for sure. You saw
how I just kind of avoided theSaab stories.
I saw that.
(11:53):
No need to incriminate yourself.
Fun times. Have fun time. Wewent to a De la Soul concert. De
la Soul came to Waltham,Brandeis, Brandeis. And we were
pushing that show I just sharedwith you about we have flyers.
(12:14):
And I remember handing Maceo aflyer and Maceo connected Phase2
right away. And then he asked mefor a couple more. So you can
hand them to somebody is bored.
But they did. They went fromwherever they were performing on
campus. To some somebody in thecrowd said after party. It's so
and so true. In that wholecrowd, wherever they were
(12:36):
performing on campus is this onestory the one story I'll tell
you, they came in extended onthis poor girl's dorm room. So
then a party, somebody got somesome commandeered some
turntables. They went in and itwas packed. And it spilled out
into the lawn. And and they wereall there just chopping it up
(12:57):
like regular people are therethey were all they're just kind
of surreal. But that's kind ofwhat what the vibe was back
then. He just kind of found yourway to things. And and everybody
was sort of an extension byassociation. So nobody looked at
anybody weird, like, like youtrying to hang on or whatever.
(13:20):
You know, we were all just byassociation. So it was just a
real natural kind of organickind of thing.
What year was that?
I had to have been early 90s.
Because that's when the show wasand we were we were promoting it
like crazy. That was the otherthing. We had a whole bunch of
people from New York that camethrough to, you know, just on,
(13:41):
you know, good faith was there.
volken was there it's probably awhole lot of other people there
that I didn't realize werethere. So, yeah, that had to
have been 91 ancient history.
How does the kid in high schoolwho loves comics now transition
to working with a major comicbook publisher?
I had no plan at all. All I hadwas like the positive examples
(14:07):
within my family. Because myfamily we we see so many people
within the family did art. Wehave a lot of that part hanging
up on the walls, you know, inthe houses that we grew up in a
good amount of that was our bymy uncles, and then Friends of
the family. So I think by thetime I was a teenager, it
(14:27):
evolved into more friends of thefamily. They were also artists
from the community by Paul Goodnight, Napoleon Jones,
Henderson, Nelson Stephens name,the Chandler, B'nai nevolin,
etc, etc. So, these are allpeople that I had access to
through my parents. So that evenmore so reinforced that notion
(14:49):
of Okay, this is something Iknow I want to do, and to have
that that resource, you know, tohave them be assessable to me,
was everything to me. So Ididn't really Have a plan. I
just knew I wanted to do withit. Because it looked cool. To
me that was success. You know, Iaspired to have my art hanging
(15:10):
on somebody's wall one day. Sothose are the examples I had.
You weren't like, you know, Ididn't aspire to be anything
outside of that. I kept it realsimple. And then it wasn't
until, like you said, I gotolder, and really started to
question what I wanted to dowith my life. And then I had
(15:32):
those thoughtful teachers try toguide me in the right
directions. So I would say, whenI graduated high school, I knew
based on the suggestions of myteachers in high school, that if
I was going to remain local,that I needed to look into
either mass art or museumschool. And I had one teacher,
(15:55):
in particular missense. Shesaid, she just really sold me on
museum school, I don't evenremember what she was saying, or
why it was so important to herthat I go there. But I went
there. And I'm glad I wentthere. Because that's when I got
connected with rocklea, DSseven, Dave Taylor. That's when
(16:15):
I met. That's when I met a wholelot of people who have remained
friends with me to this day, butimmediately, so I went through
art school, as a graphic designand illustration major. So the
second I graduated, I was tryingto get into the workforce and
make a living. So I interviewedan ad firm, that's no longer
(16:40):
around. I don't think they'rearound anymore Hill holiday. And
they were in the top of HancockTower, and Hill holiday, and
they were worldwide. They werein Germany, they were in Japan,
they were in Paris, and theywere here in Boston, and I
interviewed. But I had alsostarted sort of poking my nose
(17:03):
around in the comic bookindustry. Because I have a
natural drawn ability, I alwaysfelt like that's something that
I can do. And there were friendsof mine that were at school. And
we're going to places like svgain New York, Parsons or Pratt
Reis de, and they would get alittle pickup jobs here and
there, little fill ins forMarvel. So I send you I can do
(17:27):
that too. Long story short, Iwas waiting to hear back from a
Marvel editor on what's called aone shot. And if I asked you,
what do you think that means?
What do you think that means?
You got one chance to draw itbig? No?
Well, not one chance. But it'sone assignment. It's nothing.
But I was like, Well, I can takethat one shot and parlay that
(17:50):
into regular work, because youknow, I'm just that dope. So,
but I was waiting to hear backfrom that editor. So petal
holiday offered me whatever Iwanted to do, whether that be
freelance part time, full time,whatever. And I heard back from
that Marvel editor right away.
And I decided to pass on thelucrative aspects of full time
(18:15):
employment with dental benefits,and health insurance is not that
good stuff, to do this Marvelthing, because that was always,
you know, that was in my heartever since I was a kid. So I had
to see it through to see if Icould do it. So that's kind of
how it started. I gave myselfwhat I call self imposed
(18:36):
deadlines, because I wanted Iknew I needed to make a living
and a one shot wasn't gonna doit. So I wanted to give myself a
year to kind of learn themechanics of the industry.
Because as much as I thought Iknew, I didn't know a whole lot
about the business of comicbooks. I mean, I could draw real
good, but so could hundreds ofothers in the industry. So I
(19:00):
wanted to kind of arm myselfwith as much information as I
could, and then give myself ayear to turn it into something
full time and lucrative. If Itook more, I figured if I took
more time than a year, and I'mwasting my time, when I could
just go back to your holiday andhave full time employment. There
(19:21):
are so many years later, I tookthe comic book leap of faith,
and I enjoyed a career like twodecades long in Congress, you
know, and I kind of tookvacations and time off when I
wanted to. I sort of the natureof that industry. It's all
freelance and you know, you havecontractual arrangements, you
(19:44):
know, that come about, but it'sall what you can hustle. You
know, they pay you by andnegotiate everything and you can
go shoot your page rate,negotiate how much money it's
all really dependent. upon you,and how hard you hustle, it's
gonna determine how lucrativeit's going to be for you. So I
(20:05):
loved everything about it. Ilove when I was busy working
hard, real hard to stay busy.
That's when my hustle was themost severe when I was like,
busy working around the clock.
So that's, that's how itstarted.
And now after two decades ofexperience, if you could give
your younger self that wasstarting out that year of self
(20:28):
limit, one piece of advice, whatwould you tell yourself?
Great question, I think I wouldtell my younger self, or would
have tried to do both, I wouldhave tried to do the
advertising, and the comic bookson the side. But I think at that
age, and at that time in mylife, I just wanted to, like
(20:49):
dump everything into comics, youknow, because it was more like I
wanted to prove to myself that Icould do it. And I wanted to
deal with it, to do it, on myown terms, and by my own
definition, so I didn't want anyoutside interference or
distractions. I think that's whyI focus solely on that. But then
(21:10):
the other side of that, and thisis kind of the way I'm wired is
I wasn't comfortable with justone comic book assignment. So I
had to make sure I had otherthings on the side. And I worked
hard to make sure there's otherthings were laid out of studio
out there. And that's when wedid a whole lot of cool things
and music. You know, we hookedup with different record labels
(21:32):
to do our covers and CD coverart, things like that. But we I
always had something else goingon in the background. I didn't
feel comfortable if I didn't.
As an artist, have you ever hada time where you felt censored?
No. I mean, not centeredcensored in a traditional sense,
(21:54):
I would say. But if you'reworking on like for Marvel, or
DC, and you're working on preestablished characters, then
there's sort of like a formatthat you have to create within.
And that's for good reason. Youknow, you don't want to alienate
the fan base. And you want to doright by that character. And I
(22:15):
think when I first broke intothe industry, it was a big deal
to be able to say I, you know, Iworked on Spider Man or X-Men or
Batman or whatever. But thenafter so many years, for me
anyway, that wasn't enoughanymore. Because I'm saying,
that's cool. But I don't own anyof those characters. Somebody
else owns all of that stuff, Iwant to do my own thing. And I
(22:38):
think every creator that worksin comics, after certain amount
of investment of so many years,it's just natural to question
diseases, I could do this, Icould do my own thing, you know,
and then you start sort ofsetting it out or laying that
groundwork to try your ownprojects. And I started doing
(22:58):
that, I would say when I wasstill living in New York, so
that's almost 20 years ago, I'mstill doing it now. But then I
also had a real desire to teach.
And a lot of my peers that werepursuing a career in comics, at
the same time, I was, theywouldn't comics broke for me,
and didn't for them, they wentinto teaching. So now there have
(23:21):
just as much investment inteaching, as I do in, you know,
working professional art and incomics. So it's kind of like,
I've always been a person whereI give any discipline, the
respect that it deserves. Ididn't want to just wake up one
morning and say, Okay, now Iwant to be a teacher. And think,
(23:43):
Okay, I know, enough teachers,you know, so I should be able to
do that same thing with comicbooks, I thought I knew enough
about comic books to say, Okay,I know what that's involved with
what that's required to do thatstuff. And I should be able to
do that. But then there was awhole ton of information that I
didn't know, just about, like Isaid before, like the business
(24:03):
side of it, and the mechanics ofit. So teaching was the same
thing I didn't want to, and thisis where I guess my young self
meets up with my little bitolder self, we kind of sort of
remember again, where I'm sayingthis time, I don't want to
abandon one for the other, I canstill do the art and do the
(24:23):
teaching thing. And that's kindof where I am right now. You
know, not a whole lot haschanged, and so many years, but
I really enjoy teaching. I seeso many I teach young kids. So I
see a lot of myself, in themthat energy and that and that
just fuels me and inspires me.
(24:47):
I feel technology has replaced amentor disciple connection for
young artists.
Yeah, I would agree. I wouldagree. And I come from that kind
of generation. So I'm always I'mlike a walking throwback. I
always try to, to reintroduceit. It's like a sensibility,
(25:08):
like hip hop is just as much ofan attitude, and a sensibility
that for individuals likeourselves, who we've we've lived
it. So it's, it's so much a partof who we are, that we can't
help but infuse it andincorporate it in everything
(25:29):
that we do. So it's in the waythat I relate to these kids. And
they're not even conscious ofit. Sometimes, as it's, it's a
deliberate attempt on my part,but other times is totally
unconscious. So, technology, formost of us, I would say, it
(25:50):
enhances what we do. I neverwant to be a slave to it, in a
lot of ways. I'm a dinosaur, inmy thinking, because I like to
fall back to traditional methodsof problem solving, and trying
to get people engaged. But Ithink getting young people
(26:11):
excited. In the same way, we gotexcited when we were introduced
to the culture that ensures thecontinued evolution of the
culture that ensures that it cancontinue to, to live, but you
have to get them engaged first,they got to get turned on by it
in the same way that we gotturned on by it. And then then
(26:34):
they become inspired. And theyhave to know the real, they
can't get misguided and Missscrewed information. And I think
that's when people again, likeourselves, it's almost like a
responsibility, where self care,all that stuff on the radio or
on TV, just just forget aboutthat for a minute. Come hang out
(26:57):
with me and listen to what I gotto say. I think those core
elements, they resonate withevery generation, if they're
introduced to it in the rightway. I'm a firm believer of
that. Because coming from theworld of comic books, like I'll
call myself an artist, andstoryteller, that's how I refer
to myself. I'm a, I'm an artist,and a storyteller. And if you
(27:19):
think about how expressive hiphop is, from all of the
elements, it's all storytelling,if you think about it, and
that's how I present it to youngpeople. I don't know any young
person who doesn't have vividimagination. I mean, when I was
12, 13, my mind was all over theplace. And that's most kids. So
(27:42):
you just have to give themlicense to say, okay, all of
those crazy rockets going offinside your head. That's cool.
And let me show you how tochannel that and direct that to
a place in a way where it'spositive. I think if we all of
back to those elements, or thosethose aspects of the culture
(28:04):
that really, that we really fellin love with. It was that it was
something that innocent and thatpure, you know, they grabbed
ahold of us.
You're teaching a course on theimportance of hip hop culture
and African American culture oncomics.
Yeah, I did a workshop at BU in2015, called connection, because
(28:25):
comic books are socialcommentary. And they've always
been social commentary. But doyou think rap music rap music is
the same thing, music ingeneral. And let's toss around
some names. songwriters, likereally good songwriters like
john lennon, or Stevie Wonder,or Bob Marley or Bob Dylan?
(28:47):
Hendrix. I mean, the list goeson and on, especially Dylan, and
Marley. And guys from the 60s,you remember the protest songs
that were protesting the VietnamWar, just a precursor to the
conscious rap. It came about inthe 80s, like when you had like,
(29:09):
native tongues, ex clan, even dela, the jungle brothers, black
sheep. I mean, it's like theywere all for gangstar. They were
all from that era, where theywere talking about something
that was socially relevant post,they were also politically
conscious. A lot of people goteducated by listening to rap
(29:30):
records that would be remiss ifI didn't mention Public Enemy to
slip. But so many other examplesbrand new being so all that is
is an extension of the protestsongs. And our Vietnam was like
that for that first Desert Stormwar, that first Cold War back in
(29:50):
the 80s, or whatever it was, andwe got a myriad of different
examples present day that wecould draw from. So again,
thanks Use that artists do theartistic license to talk about
what they see. Because what theysee is what all of us see, you
know, it's not a one one sidedkind of thing. They're not
(30:14):
talking about champagne anddiamonds and chicks and Spence,
rims or whatever, they'retalking about things that are
affecting everybody. So what Idid with the workshop was, I
made that comparison, like Ijuxtapose comic books as being
social commentary. As far backas like, there was an
(30:36):
underground comics movement, youtalk about censorship, that's
why they will call undergroundfor a reason. I mean, anyway,
like, whether it was the subjectmatter was just too raunchy, you
know, in the form of like,overtly sexual, or real harsh
criticism of the war, orwhatever it was, it was not from
(30:56):
mainstream. So they developtheir own audience. And in doing
so they created their ownplatform. So I wanted the
students to be you to thinkabout how they can connect
music, and visual art. And itwas teaching them the basic
(31:18):
fundamentals of comic books, buta natural understanding of basic
drawing fundamentals wasrequired. Because I didn't want
to waste a whole lot of time,trying to teach people how to
draw, I wanted people thatalready knew how to draw to come
in there so that they have that.
And then we could really diveinto some of the possibilities
of how they can infuse music andvisual art, to tell a story that
(31:41):
would bring the world together.
That would be a vehicle forconnection, and peace. And all
that's it. I mean, it soundskind of corny, but if you think
about it, it's a basic,fundamental commonality that we
(32:05):
all share globally as a planet.
Yeah, and it went over realgood. Yeah, I'm always I'm
always looking to different waysof expression, but then also
pushing the things that I love,also, like, I'm a product of hip
hop. But then I also have thisdeep love and respect for comic
(32:25):
book industry. And the wholelanguage of sequential art, not
only as a teaching tool, but butas an art form, unnecessary art
form, and an incredibly credibleteaching tool. So that's what
that was about.
Mass rock against racism justcelebrated their 40th
(32:47):
anniversary this year. Can youtell us more about this
movement?
so more ancient history. That'sanother good example, though.
This is like Boston, when I wascoming up, it was very
segregated. And, I mean, I hadfriends that might have lived in
South Boston or Charles town orwherever, but I knew enough not
to be in those neighborhoodsafter dark. And in certain
(33:10):
areas, you know, back then, youknow, in Dorchester, Roxbury,
mattapan, certain white folk notto be in those areas. You know,
there was the whole busingthing. And you guys may have,
you know, heard about the wholebusing thing in Boston. I didn't
personally experience it. But Ihad friends that were my age
(33:31):
that so you have a program, likera or match rock against racism,
man, that was like a godsend forso many of us kids. And that's
how a lot of us met New Kids onthe Block before they were the
new kids on the block. A littlehip hop kids, man, they dance,
you know, especially Danny. Hedid that in the hip hop label
(33:53):
called damage records. T Max washis first artists that was
signed to the label and I do thelogo. But they had like this
little office at UMass Bostondowntown, right across from Park
Plaza. That was just like ameeting place. They had one area
of the room that has been oleumdown. And they had another
(34:15):
corner of the room that had theturntable setup. And you had all
the writers over here in theirblack books. It was like a
sanctuary and no judgment. Andthese kids came from every
corner of the city. They theywere from Roxbury. They were
from Quincy. It was fromsouthie. They were from
Brookline. They were fromNewton, Somerville. And none of
(34:38):
that mattered. It was that sortof like we were talking about
earlier that association. Youknow, we were all connected to
an extended family. We justdidn't realize it until we
walked through that door. Andthen we realized it. And there
was something for everybody. Andthat was like my favorite place
(34:58):
in the world. To hang out it, wedidn't even know what we were
doing was so important as ittranslates to the landscape of
the city at that time. And whatwe were doing as kids, we were
serious change agents. If youthink about it, you know what we
were laying down for futuregenerations to follow. We had no
(35:20):
idea the might, maybe a littlebit, but we really didn't
realize the impact and thesignificance of what we were
doing. We did shows but majorshout out to Fran Smith, and
Ruby Garrett's follow me biggerfollow was an actual teacher at
UMass. And Fran Smith was astudent, a teaching student. So
(35:43):
Fran, really wasn't that mucholder than we were. I mean, she
was probably 20. And we werelike, 1314. But they taught us
how to, like work together, youknow, and respect each other,
independent of what area of thecity from what suburb or
whatever has taught us how to,like create, together, you know,
(36:04):
all in the name of art, or artslash hip hop. You know that. I
mean, I met so many people thatare, I would say, significant
contributors to the culture ofhip hop here in Boston. And then
it's funny, Fran tells thisstory about how guys like Leno
and the Lord's and born from theDomino's, they wanted to be able
(36:30):
to do shows with us, you know,with with AR AR, and Fran made
them audition just likeeverybody else. And I don't I
don't know if Leto was offended.
But I know based on friendsstories, that Bourne was like,
I'm not edition in for anythingunique Domino Domino's, and
we're not all over the place.
(36:52):
And then you probably heard ofHBO homeboys only. Yeah. I mean,
all of that was happening at thesame time. So that was like the
city was electric back then. Butwe as kids really changed that
whole segregation, racialdynamic that existed. And
looking back on it now. It waspowerful. The stuff that you
(37:16):
know, brought Run DMC the town,had some some of these are AR
kids opening up for Run DMC Imean, never. And I mean, Run DMC
was at the top of their, theywere in their prime back then.
So the channel they had theyhosted a lot of rock shows. And,
but that that was major. Thatwas major as history right
(37:39):
there. But get a podium beforeyour birthday celebration. That
was beautiful. That wasbeautiful. It was sort of like a
an offshoot of this archivingevent that we had the previous
year where we did a throughUMass Amherst, and the Healy
library, and mass hip hoparchive. A shout out to Pacey
(38:03):
Forrester, he documented a lotof material from an artifacts
from just not just us coming up.
But anybody, they opened thedoors to the community, and
anybody that had stuff thatwould be significant to add to
the archive. So now that's partof their permanent and archive.
Yeah, the last time we saw eachother in person was at the 40th
(38:26):
anniversary of RAR.
Yeah, I saw so many people Ihadn't seen in years.
So you have a new residency atthe MFA. Can you describe what
what that means?
Yeah, that's really, that's areal cool project. And this
started prior to COVID. I feellike COVID-19 came through and
(38:46):
completely derailed everybody'shopes and dreams all over the
world. So they did the samething with our residency. But we
have been resilient in themoment. And we're soldiering
forward. So we are going to havea physical opening at the end of
this year. I don't know whatit's gonna look like yet.
Because you can see when peoplestart to get back to reopening,
(39:10):
and you're seeing cases of thevirus starting to spike again.
Any idiot could have said what'sgoing to happen. But I digress.
But yeah, last May, pro black,Rob Gibbs. He has a neuro series
called breathe life. So he's gota real beautiful mural in
Dorchester. But the little boy,what I love about this, this
(39:33):
brother's work, and I've knownhim for a long time. I think the
beautiful thing about Boston andour sort of history of being
connected from from generationto generation is when when we
had a wall RS without limits. Wewere just kids hanging out, but
(39:54):
we all shared a common interest.
You know, we all really had thisJones to do art and Just due to
really great art, and, and we,that challenged ourselves and
and it's sort of like that'slike the essence in the spirit
of hip hop. It's almost like,you know, you got to show and
prove if your crewmate is rightthere and you got to represent.
(40:16):
So it's that kind of thing. Wekept each other fresh and on
point. That was the firingthing. And there was a group
called Africa Cobra, from the60s. And some of the artists
that I had mentioned when wefirst started talking the Polian
Henderson, Nelson Stevens, theywere part of this, this movement
(40:38):
called an Africa was an acronymfor African commune of Bad, bad
meaning good, relevant artists.
And they found it in the 60s 68.
They were sort of like ourblueprint for a wall, and in a
wallet inspired a la, AfricanLatino Alliance, pro black zone
quest, Mark 27. And now theyhave, they've spawned all of
(41:03):
these disciples of the youngergeneration and look up to them
like gods. So pro always had theutmost respect for him. And he's
done amazing things with his artcareer. So it's kind of nice to
show that connection locally,you know, from from generation
to generation, and the respectthat's always been there, and no
(41:25):
animosity. You know, I think allof that beef and animosity
that's, that's more like a NewYork thing. It's never, from my
experience, it's never been aBoston thing. We've always at
least my my era, we've alwaystried to build each other up and
encourage each other and supporteach other. And we have the
opportunity to me and pro tolink up on this project. It was
(41:48):
almost like a no brainer, like,why didn't we think of it and
shout out to mckaela McCreary,she had the foresight to put us
together. Go back a bit. I hadmentioned something and then
almost forgot to give you alittle bit more detail. So pro
black had the dedication to themural that's on Fremont Street,
(42:09):
across from the piano factory.
That's his latest one, with theboy and the girl on her
shoulders. So he had justfinished that in May of last
year. And I was at an event thatmckeeva mccrary at the MFA was
hosting with a whole lot ofcommunity teachers, and it's a
roundtable discussion. And wewent directly from there to the
(42:33):
dedication of pros mural in thesouth then. So that was a great
day. That was like this bigpremiere for like this movie,
this incredible movie that youcan't wait to see and everybody
in the neighborhood sales reallygood. So long story short,
McKeever wanted to know ormckeeva had the foresight to try
and bring that energy into theMFA. So there were a couple of
(42:56):
things that were going on at theMFA at the time, they were right
on the cusp of the hundred and50th anniversary of the MFA. So
there was a whole lot ofprogramming around that. And
then there was this littleexhibit called writing in the
future. bask in the hip hopgeneration. So I'm being
(43:18):
sarcastic. That's like a hugedeal, because basky has never
been exhibited in the MFA ever,let alone his contemporaries. So
she connected us directly withthat exhibition. So I actually
have pieces that I did intribute form that were mixed
(43:39):
media g clay on canvas, that aregoing originally were to be
displayed at the exit of theexhibit, and sort of a paying
homage to a lot of thosepioneering artists that laid
down the foundation, but theartists who are featured in the
exhibit basky on of course,teacher, Lady pink MLC, Fab
(44:03):
Five, Freddy Leake, known asKeith Haring toxic LA to cool
core, but if you're not familiarwith any of these artists,
definitely look them up inGoogle. They defined an era that
I know everybody from my era wasturned on by and inspired by.
This is sort of like whenShepard Fairey was coming up and
(44:26):
Kenny Scharf, 80s 80s in Bostonin New York. I mean, if you were
like me, I was back and forth toNew York in the 80s all the
time. So to be given anopportunity to have anything to
do with a groundbreaking exhibitlike that. I mean, who would
have thought that the MFA inBoston would ever host I mean,
(44:49):
just basky out alone is a bigdeal. But all of those people at
the same time, and there was allthis other programming. There
were panel discussions. blockparties with DJs. It was really
recreating the whole essence ofthose significant aspects of the
culture that define the culturereally define the movement, and
(45:14):
COVID just came through and justwiped it all away. So most of
the companion events got knockedout. But recently, as a matter
of fact, we just gotconfirmation that physical
exhibit will remain in Bostonuntil the end of the year. So
what the MFA did was theyoffered a residency to myself
(45:36):
and pro black. And to myunderstanding, that's the first
time a residency or the MFA hasoffered residency to local
artists. So, so we're kind ofblazing a trail. And being the
first, obviously, a lot ofpeople are being resilient in
the moment, like this zoneconversation, and teaching
(45:58):
online and just rethinkingdifferent ways of how we just
move and maneuver through lifeand business. So a lot of that
is being introduced on the web,that, you know, originally,
people would have experiencedphysically in a traditional
exhibition format. So we have aprogram book that was flipped
comic book style, that was myidea, kind of took the format of
(46:22):
old school Marvel Comics, andhad the same kind of layout and
prose logos on it. And my logoson here, the MFA Logo is on
their, Pro is actually doing acommunity mural, I don't think
the kids are going to beinvolved anymore. But it's with
Madison Park High. So if you'refamiliar with pro black, he's
one of the founders of artistsfor humanities. And he heads up
(46:45):
the painting program down there.
So he's gonna have his studentspartner up with Madison Park
High students to do thecommunity mural on the exterior
of Madison Park High. So thatwas one thing, it was a three
part event that we werecollaborating on as artists and
residents. So let me roll wasone part of the program book was
(47:07):
another and theIs there a film and a film
documentary?
Why did that slip my mind.
And that would be coming outsoon. Because they did the
teaser trailer last month.
Looking forward to that, thatwas a lot of fun to do. For
(47:29):
people who may know of us, butnot know that much about us. I
think it's a nice little windowinto you know who we are
artists. And then behind the artis nice and evenly balanced. It
really shows the mutual respect,you know, we share between each
other. So it's really great. Allright, all the way around beyond
(47:51):
measure, local film company,they produce that.
I mean, I can see why withBasquiat and a lot of the people
you named were collaboratorswith him as well. And so you
collaborating with thisresidency, it kind of goes with
the same theme of that as well,being able to bring better
reach.
(48:12):
All of those artists were hiscontemporaries. And I just keep
bringing it back to hip hopagain, it's it's just so pure
and innocent. It's like what wewere all doing as kids back in
the day, and I might have knowncause or cash, God rest his
soul. What maze was zone?
And, you know, hey, what do youdo? To try and get a show
(48:35):
somewhere? I mean, it was justlike that, you know, that kind
of commonplace? And all of thebusiness are, how much are you
gonna make and how much did thatwas all like, over there. It was
always about the art first. Andyou look back on how those
luminaries, how they came up. Itwas the similar kind of thing.
(48:57):
They were just products of theirenvironment. It's almost like
they didn't realize they weredoing something so phenomenal.
Until all of these hordes ofpeople started coming in and
trying to get a piece of themand telling them Oh my god,
you're incredible. You're great.
You're this, you're that. Andsome of them didn't want to take
that ride. Some of them theirtheir attitude was some of the
writers and graffiti artists.
(49:18):
Their attitude was no I'm, I'm awriter, I'm a group. I'm a
bomber. You know, I'm not. Ididn't start bombing to take
trips to Paris and fly all overthe world as started bombing to
destroy frickin train lines. Youknow, I'm not with all of that
caviar and Champagne stuff. ButI think it was very similar with
(49:41):
us to was that innocence, butthen that it was coupled with
that excitement. layer, youknow, we could do anything.
And you've done so many thingsand you're still involved in so
many projects. What do you do tomaintain focus? How do you
balance it all?
This might sound a little selfabsorbed. But that's easy for
(50:03):
me. I have blogs from time totime, like everybody, but my
takeaway from this wholequarantine pandemic. And now
uprising, I mean, where do Ibegin is a whole myriad of stuff
to pull from an inspirationdoesn't always have to be rosy
and positive inspiration canenrage you, but you're inspired.
(50:28):
And I feel lucky, and fortunateto be able to have a disability
where I can channel thatredirect that, and doesn't
necessarily have to be amasterpiece that I would want to
display somewhere. But it's away of getting that out of my
system. And not fully out of mysystem. But getting it out there
(50:49):
and playing around with it. Iknow a lot of artists that feel
the same way, and have sort oflike a similar approach and
format to how to deal withthings. I've always been very
grateful for that ability to beable to express myself in a way
that I that I have, or that Ican. And this whole experience
(51:14):
hasn't been short of that, Ineed to pay a little bit better
attention to self care. See,I've always been a slim dude and
put on a little bit of puttingput a couple of pounds on so
that's not a good look for me.
So, but that's a reminder, youknow, okay, you kill kids.
Creativity hasn't waned, but youkind of slack in in other areas.
(51:35):
So tighten that up. But um,yeah, inspiration is so many
places, so many sources to drawfrom. I've never been starved on
that, especially now, I got afew private challenges I'm not
going to speak about in a wholelot of great detail, but a
couple of our buddies of minefrom New York, our mission is
when the smoke finally clears.
(51:59):
And we get on the other side ofthis madness, if that even ever
happens. But I'm optimistic thatit will, then we're hitting up
the galleries. So you have likespecific number of pieces that
we need to create new pieces bynothing that you posted online,
Robin's got to be new. In turn,we're inspiring each other. Once
(52:20):
as simple. I have a habit ofposting things that I'm kind of
sort of in the process ofcreating. Can I do that? And
he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah,sure. But just knowing that
people you care about, and we'reall living through the same
thing. You know, we're alltaking it day by day. And that's
the way to do it. Just knowingthat there's somebody else out
there even this interactiontoday, you know, with what we're
(52:43):
doing, talking about, you know,that the common thread here is
this culture that we all love.
That's why I was no, absolutelylooking forward to sharing some
time with you guys today. Butyeah, so that inspiration is
everywhere. Especially theyouth, you just take a walk
outside, and it's everywhere.
I was curious to know how youfelt about the new Spider Man.
(53:06):
Love it. I saw the movie, theanimated one.
I love the hip hop influence init.
Yeah, I liked that. And that wasundeniable and on purpose. But I
like the little nuance II thingsthat they did, where they almost
superimposed little comic bookelements, like blatant. And
(53:27):
sometimes if you blinked youmissed it. You know, it was
almost subliminal in areas. Butit's almost like they had like
the superimposed dot pattern.
Like if you were like a kid inthe old comic books, you take a
magnifying glass to the pages,and you'd see all the little
dots with the color and blown upyou don't really see that too
(53:48):
much anymore, because most ofthe books are colored by
computer now but that was likesome old school throwback shit
that I didn't think a whole lotof people would catch to little
nuances like that, that theydid. They were all throughout
the movie just sort ofhaphazard, scattered about. I
thought it was amazing. And Ihave some friends that the
conceptual art for that movie.
(54:11):
I'm not gonna put them on blast,because their egos are already
overblown. Just kidding.
Is there anything else you wouldlike to talk about or express to
our listeners?
I think we nailed it. I think Iwould just tell people if if
there was ever something thatyou wanted to do, your real
(54:31):
passionate about. And it'spositive, not to beat yourself
up with the what ifs? What ifI'm not good enough? Or what if
I'm not, you know, what if Idon't make it or what if I don't
just invest the time as opposedto watching the years go by and
then saying I should have didthat? Because that's what hip
(54:51):
hop for us. And I'm speakinglocally, it was just all around.
So it was just what we did askids It wasn't like a trend that
we were following. And theneverybody that we knew did the
same thing. So it's like, oddsare, I mean, we could be on a
train somewhere, and some kidwill be in his black book, and
(55:13):
then another kid over there. Andit was just a common kind of
thing. So you just almostassumed that anybody that you
met at that time, that was inyour age or age range, that they
were into the same things thatyou were, it was that powerful,
to just take advantage of thoseopportunities. I think RAR, we
(55:34):
were talking about, we didn'trealize the significance and the
power of what we were doinguntil years after the fact. But
we really helped to contributeto changing the racial climate
and landscape of this city.
people outside of Boston, I'msure you guys know, they hear
horror stories about Boston,Boston now is nothing like it's
(55:56):
not perfect, but it's nothinglike it was when I was coming up
in a generation just before me.
And I feel proud in saying thatmy generation helped change all
of that. Yes, that's what Iwould tell, especially the
(56:16):
younger listeners, you know, ifthere's something that you're
into, like you seen a lot ofyoung people out here, like you
saw young people out thereprotesting the Gulf War, when
the first bush was in office, mydays and protesting, and
especially during a globalpandemic, I think I'm pretty
much over with, but Iunderstand, and I support and
(56:37):
applaud their desire to be outthere. Because they're fed up.
It's like this, this is raginginside of them. So the older
heads like me will say, I'm notgoing to be out there. But then
the younger people say, I haveno choice but to be you know,
and I respect that. And to me,that's positive, because the
change changes. They're layingdown that landscape. And I was
(57:01):
talking to my friend, the secondthat I saw the Floyd murder on
TV, like we all did. And thenyou saw that stuff happened
almost instantaneously. Thatwhole uprising is swept across
the country, and it traveled thewhole globe. So I was saying
this is different. This is acombination of Rodney King,
(57:21):
Landrieu. Castiel, and EricGarner, and Briana Taylor, and
Freddie Gray, and on and on andon Tamir Rice, and on and on and
on. But this is different. Andwe see and why this is
different. So how is this timegonna manifest 10 years from
(57:42):
now? You don't know. But it's avery interesting time to be
alive. And I for one, with allthe craziness that's going on in
uncertainty, I'm glad I'm hereand experiencing it. You know,
cuz we're eventually going toget to the other side of it. I'm
gonna make sure I'm still aroundand doing what I need to do.
Take care of me in mind. I hopeyou all do the same. And so we
(58:07):
can have a story to tell on theother side. Yeah.
Well, as we're starting to wrapup, we want to roll out the red
carpet for you. Can you let ourlisteners know, you know where
they can find you and how theycan support you.
Oh, for sure. RobStull.com - I'mon social media, even though I'm
(58:27):
not a big fan of social media.
I'm RobStull24 on Twitter, thatI'm barely on anymore. And
RobStull24 on Instagram. I'm onFacebook. Facebook is kind of
pissing me off. I don't knowwhat's going on with Zuckerberg.
But it's RobStull24 and I amRobStull on Facebook,
we end (58:49):
What is hip hop to you?
Oh, wow, life - Life. I didn'tstart this hashtag but I rapid
art life. Because to me, art andlife are intrinsic. It's almost
like there's no line betweenthem. For me. art for me is life
(59:10):
itself. I draw every day. I tryto be creative in some kind of
way every day, even if I'm notdrawing, even if I'm just
sitting around andconceptualizing something. Hip
Hop is life. I thank God that Iwas sort of like, an offspring
of that first generation. So I'mnot I'm not that old to be like
(59:35):
the first generation, but I'm anoffspring of the first
generation. So I got it pure.
And I'm glad that I did. Becauseyou talk to a lot of these kids.
And when I say kids, I meananywhere from 10 to 17. And you
ask them what they think hip hopis. They'll quote some rapper on
(59:55):
the radio. I don't know No, youknow, that's not hip hop at all.
That's rap music. And we didn'tget into that. But I always
argue that there's a distinctdifference between hip hop
culture and hip hop music andrap music. two totally different
(01:00:18):
things.
Thank you so much to our guests,Rob, for taking the time and
being so open while sharing yourperspective with us.
Some of the gems we took awayfrom this interview were
Strong emotions can be a greatsource of inspiration. Negative
(01:00:39):
experiences can be channeled andused as creative fuel just as
much as positive ones.
The ripple effect of encouragingenvironments can lead to great
individual and social change.
Common things can lead toexceptional outcomes by doing
them with the right people. Whenyou share your imagination, it
creates collaboration which inturn, nurtures a community.
(01:01:01):
our theme music was beatboxed byDenis the Menace and produced by
Zede, a big shout out to thebrothers from Switzerland.
Also, a big shout out to ourbrother Christopher Barns, aka
Trackyou already know. And Mali, You
already know.
If you would like to support ourshow, you can buy us a coffee by
(01:01:22):
clicking on the link in the shownotes. We would love to get your
feedback, questions and anysuggestions you might have. You
can reach out to us onInstagram, Twitter or Facebook
@SoulidarityLLC or via emailsoulidarityllc@gmail.com
If you liked today's show,please tell a friend about our
(01:01:44):
podcast. Or as Phife Dawg wouldsay: Tell your mother, tell your
father, sent a telegram.
in our next episode we welcomeEast-3.
East-3 is a lifelong writer, hiphop practitioner, designer,
multimedia artist, entrepreneur,accountant and educator. He
lives in Hawaii and representsthe Rock Force Crew.
(01:02:05):
Don't forget to subscribe to theshow and leave a rating and
review. See you on our nextepisode. Thank you for listening
to our podcast.
No, seriously. Thank you.
I am Candy. I am DJ Razor Cut.
This is Souls of Hip Hop
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