October 17, 2025 • 20 mins
The next episode of the SOUNDS OF FILM features an in-depth conversation with Tom Needham and British filmmaker Elliott Hasler, the writer and director of VINDICATION SWIM, the inspiring true story of Mercedes Gleitze, the first British woman to swim the English Channel.
VINDICATION SWIM tells the extraordinary story of Gleitze’s 1927 accomplishment and her subsequent struggle to reclaim her achievement after being falsely accused of faking her swim.
The film vividly captures both her physical endurance and her determination to defy societal barriers in a male-dominated world. Shot with remarkable authenticity, the film features Kirsten Callaghan in her debut role as Gleitze, performing all her own swimming scenes—without the use of green screens or body doubles. The film also stars John Locke, James Wilby, and Douglas Hodge, who provides narration.
Filmed over three years in the actual waters of the English Channel, VINDICATION SWIM stands as a celebration of perseverance, equality, and the indomitable human spirit. Directed by Hasler—who, at just 23, has already been hailed as one of Britain’s most promising young filmmakers—the film brings to life an unsung chapter of British sports and feminist history.
About The Sounds of Film
The Sounds of Film is the nation’s longest-running film and music-themed show, hosted by Tom Needham. For over three decades, the program has featured in-depth interviews with many of the world’s leading directors, composers, and artists. Past guests include Laurie Anderson, Ernest Dickerson, Barbara Kopple, and Howard Shore.
Listeners can hear The Sounds of Film on all major podcast platforms including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, and Audible, where it continues to spotlight conversations at the intersection of art, politics, and social justice.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hi, this is Tom Needham and you're listening to the sounds
of film. Today we're speaking with
British filmmaker Elliot Hassler, the writer and director
of Vindication Swim, an incredible, inspiring biopic
about Mercedes Glides, the firstBritish woman to swim the
English Channel. The film brings to life her
(00:22):
extraordinary determination and the challenges she faced both in
the frigid waters and in a male dominated 1920s England.
Elliot, thank you so much for joining us today on The Sounds
of Film. No worries at all, thanks for
having me on. Yeah, So what first drew you to
the story of Mercedes? Well, I've never actually heard
(00:44):
of Mercedes Glides and we share the same hometown.
We're both born in Brighton on the South Coast of England.
So, you know, having grown up there and, you know, lived by
the Channel my whole life, I really should have known who she
was. And then I kind of discovered
the story, you know, about her and kind of started reading
about it. You know, I thought, wow, this
would really make a, you know, agreat movie.
And it kind of all came on from there.
(01:04):
Really. It was sort of this sort of
desire to bring her name back into kind of the public memory
where it where it ought to be because she was such a huge
celebrity back in the back in the 20s and 30s when she was
doing these incredible swims allover the world.
Can you tell us a little bit about your film career?
You're relatively relatively young and it's a big thing to
choose a film project to do because it can really
(01:27):
distinguish you and and make your career.
You've had some success already,but just tell us a little bit
about your career thus far. Yes, I've been making films
since I was about 10. That was when I first got into
it. It was a school project.
That's what I was at at the timewhere instead of doing lessons,
they made a film over the courseof a week.
And that was kind of my first experience of being behind the
(01:50):
camera. You know, I'd always grown up
loving films and watching them and things.
But. But that was kind of my first,
yeah, sort of foray into the actual world of film making.
And I just fell in love with it from there.
You know, I thought it was such a such a fantastic thing to do.
And from then on, I started making, you know, little kind of
amateur projects with friends and family and that kind of
thing. And then when I was 14, I
decided to make a film about my great grandfather and his
(02:11):
experiences as a, as a prisoner of war in Italy during the
Second World War. And he, he escaped and he made
this huge, incredible journey across the country.
So I, I kind of took it upon myself to make that while I was
at school with, you know, just agroup of friends kind of did it
on the weekends. It was an amateur project, you
know, nothing, nothing particularly advanced, tiny
budget, but it did incredibly well.
It got Auk and AUS release. We launched it last year.
(02:33):
We saw this Paramount plus. So it's now on there, UK, France
and Italy. So, you know, it kind of took on
this life of its own and did anddid incredibly well.
And then off the back of that I was able to come on to do
Vindication swim. And what appeared to you to be
the the best reason to do this film as your next film?
I think everything kind of aligned pretty well with that
(02:56):
being the next one. You know, I kind of, I found
this story and it kind of, it resonated pretty well with me at
that moment in time. I think, you know, on a much
smaller scale, there's a lot of parallels with what Mercedes did
to kind of, you know, how it is starting out in the film
industry, you know, kind of justthe the resilience, the
determination, you know, it's not an easy industry to break
into. So those traits of Mercedes
gleit certainly resonated prettystrongly with me.
(03:17):
And, and it just felt like, you know, kind of the right time to
be, to be telling the story. Yeah, So why is it so hard right
now to make films in the industry?
Well, it's an interesting one because I think technically it's
got easier to make films, you know, in terms of the the kit
and and what you need to actually shoot a movie.
You know, you have a 4K camera in your pocket these days.
(03:38):
So I think actually making filmshas become easier.
But but it's just the whole kindof process of actually breaking
into this industry has become a lot, a lot more challenging.
I don't know if that's because there's more films out there or
just because the the industry isin a bit of a slump at the
moment, Maybe a bit of both. I don't know.
But it it certainly is tough these days.
Can you tell me a little bit about what it's like making
films that are eventually shown in America, but you're you're in
(04:01):
England? Yeah.
I mean, you know, when we began this film, it was we kind of
didn't really think about it so much in terms of where it was
going to end up, which I know isa bit of a cardinal sin in the
world of film making. But that was kind of how this
one was. You know, it was a group of
people who are very passionate about this story and kind of
bringing it to life. And then over the course of
making it, COVID hit and the world open border swimming just
(04:24):
absolutely boomed. So it took on this whole new
kind of life after that and it really did become, you know,
quite a big deal in the UK. We as an indie film, we thought
maybe we get kind of 1-2 weeks in theatres.
We ended up having this huge 18 week run, you know, 300 theatres
all around the UK. It just, it really did kind of,
you know, go crazy. And it was, it was fantastic to
witness, you know, because we'd spent so long working on the
(04:44):
film to kind of have that reception.
And that release was, was just absolutely fantastic.
And then it's allowed us to, youknow, bring the film across to
the States where we're, you know, bringing it to.
We've got a number of screens kind of the tri-state area.
And then we're doing California,Canada after that as well.
So it's just, you know, it has really taken on this life of its
own and kind of bringing this story of Mercedes Glides out
there to the world. Is Mercedes just still to this
(05:06):
day very very well known and popular there that the film was
so successful? Or is it just that the film got
a buzz and and people just kept on turning out to see it?
Yeah, I mean, it was the latter really.
Mercedes, unfortunately, has become kind of a forgotten
figure since her swims back in, you know, nearly 100 years ago.
So yes, she she was not well known at all.
(05:28):
No one really knew about her. Most people we brought onto the
movie, you know, they were like,who is this woman?
And then they started reading about her and then came very,
you know, passionate about bringing her story back.
But but but yeah, I'd say she's probably as well known in the UK
as she is out here, which, you know, unfortunately isn't very
well known at all. So it's kind of, you know, been
through the film that we've had this, you know, fantastic
resurgence in her, in her legacy.
Tell me about the title, the vindication story.
(05:52):
What that vindication means? It sounds a little tricky
without giving too much away, but essentially Mercedes was
implicated in this whole kind ofcheating hoax scandal.
There was a rival swimmer that came along after she'd swam the
English Channel and kind of claimed to have done the same
thing. And, and it launched this huge
hoax, this big scandal. It was called the hoax of the
(06:12):
century at the time. So it was, you know, an
incredibly big deal. And essentially Mercedes was
accused of kind of falsifying her swim.
And then she had to go out thereand, and prove that she had done
it and that she could in fact swim the English Channel.
She had to vindicate herself, you know, Hence the.
Hence the. Title So this is not just a
movie about showing her swimming.
(06:33):
It's also much more than that interms of her personal life and
what she had to go through and and what the time period was
like, right? Yeah, absolutely.
You know, it's really kind of a battle against the
establishment. You know, she's got to really
fight for what she believes in and what she feels she's capable
of. And she's got so many different
sort of, you know, barriers up against her.
(06:55):
She's a woman in the 1920s. She's she's of the working
class. She's also the daughter of
German immigrants. So she has all that kind of
racism after the First World Wartowards people of German
heritage. So, you know, kind of every,
every prejudice really she's up against and she has to kind of
knock all the, you know, down all these barriers and, and go
out there and then battle against Mother Nature itself to,
to achieve her dreams and why? Do you think a story like that
(07:16):
is just as relevant today in 2025?
I think in a, in a way, it's a bit of a sad reflection on our
society that is still relevant because, you know, I think those
problems should have gone away. But but unfortunately, you know,
there are still a lot of barriers that face women today.
And, you know, obviously people who have a races and things like
that, You know, there are a lot of issues in the world.
And I think, you know, these sorts of stories of people
(07:38):
overcoming adversity and, and persevering and, and going out
there and accomplishing what they want to do.
I think, you know, are incredibly timely.
And there's always going to be kind of a relevance of these
Trail Blazers, these pioneers who who defied the sort of
societal expectations of their era and achieve these incredible
things. I've heard some people compare
you to Spielberg. Spielberg famously made Jaws and
(08:02):
told everyone about how hard it was to make a film on the water.
How was the experience for you? I It was very hard.
Yeah, we probably should have heeded Spielberg's warnings
about coming out there, but it, I mean, it was incredibly tough
that the production itself took three years.
So that kind of gives you a sense of what we were up
(08:23):
against. But, you know, I mean, sometimes
we'd go out there on the EnglishChannel, we'd get like one or
two shots in the can and we'd have to abandon the shoot
because the winds had changed, the tides had changed, and then
it was just no longer safe to carry on.
I think the very first day that we went out there, I think kind
of epitomizes the the difficultyof the shoot.
It was a little too choppy, a little too rough to be going
out. And, you know, because we were
(08:43):
kind of naive to it. It was the first day we went
with it and everyone was struck with really bad seasickness.
And and poor John Locke, who plays Mercedes coach in the
film, he was vomiting over one side of the boat, turning to the
other side, delivering his linesand then vomiting back into the
ocean again. So, you know, I think that just
kind of goes to show the challenges we're up against kind
of a daily basis working like this.
It was a, it was, you know, a strange office to be in for
(09:04):
three years. Was it ever dangerous at any
point? Yeah, absolutely.
We the worst it got. We knew he loved the producer.
One of the shoots. That one wasn't a, you know,
wasn't a fun day. Luckily we didn't, otherwise I
think the film never would have been made.
But kind of we were out there shooting.
An actor had to be taken into shore because he had another
(09:25):
another engagement he had to getback for.
So we were swapping out with a body double and then we went
back out and and the producer inthe meantime had elected to stay
out in the channel to kind of speed up the process.
So he was bobbing around for about two miles offshore in a
little sort of RIB with an outboard motor on it holding the
production rowing boat. And, and then in the meantime,
we were back, you know, droppingthis actor off and had to come
(09:46):
back out and, and, you know, find him again.
And as soon as we cleared the harbour wall, I mean, the
visibility had just shrunk down to pretty much nothing.
You couldn't see anything really.
And, and the waves had picked up.
It was, it was hailing, you know, it's just awful, awful
conditions. And, you know, we really did
think we'd lost him. It was probably about 20 minutes
of, of searching kind of frantically.
And, and we happened to eventually come up on these
fishing boats that had formed this circle.
(10:09):
And, you know, lo and behold, inthe middle of this circle,
there's the producer floating around.
But they just, you know, kind of.
Sheltered him. That's wild.
Tell me about about Kirsten Callaghan.
She was incredible in the movie and this must have been a tough
film for her to make. Yeah, no, it was incredibly
tough for Kirsten, but she knowsshe really rose to the occasion
(10:31):
on it. She was.
I know. I don't think we could have
found anyone else to play Mercedes.
Not only do they look identical,you know, they're a real
spitting image of one another. But I think Kirsten just really
embodied those traits that make the character, the resilience,
you know, the perseverance, determination.
She really kind of, you know, came into her own with this
film. So she did, you know, an
incredible job and she did all the swimming.
There was no body double S in this film.
(10:52):
When we did our audition, one ofthe things she said was that she
wanted to do all the swimming herself, have no body double S
and and really kind of put herself into Mercedes shoes and
feel that discomfort in the English Channel.
And, you know, sometimes we werefilming because it was 4 hours.
She was in the water at a time and it's it's cold out there.
So she she really suffered for her art with this film.
But I think, you know, it just goes to show, you know, how how
(11:13):
how kind of passionate she was for the movie in in her
performance. Did she?
Ever have any problems with jellyfish or anything like that?
Luckily we didn't have any problems with jellyfish.
She had a bad cramp one day, which I've never seen a cramp
like it was like a, you could see it was like a tennis ball
was like stuck in her leg. It was, it was, it was really
pretty bad. But I think that was sort of the
(11:34):
worst experience she had. But it's just that, you know,
the biting cold of, of being outthere and coming out the water
and getting back in and kind of you're not swimming much because
we've got a kind of reset between takes.
She's kind of just floating there and getting colder and
colder. Wow, did she ever at any point
to start to think, wow, maybe I could do this swim like the full
swim? I I think it was probably the
(11:55):
opposite. I think it's put her off ever
watching tries. For the English Channel for
real. Why is that?
Just because it's so hard, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a
real feat of endurance. I mean, even today more people
have climbed Mount Everest than have swung the English Channel,
which, you know, I think just goes to show how difficult and
and physically challenging it actually is.
Why is it so hard? Well, it's just a very, you
(12:19):
know, very tempestuous stretch of water.
It's, it's 21 miles across, but there's all sorts of currents
and, and things like that. So, you know, if you missed the
tide, for instance, on your swim, it can add 6 hours onto it
because you've got to, you know,battle against the current and,
and, and you know, make the tideagain.
So there's just all kind of things that can go wrong.
It's, you know, it's incredibly challenging swim and it's kind
of almost, you know, kind of thegold standard.
Really we're in the swimming world of of, of, you know, kind
(12:41):
of that kind of achievement. Can you tell me a little bit
about how whatever budget you had affected the way that you
had to shoot the movie? I mean, yeah, we were definitely
very constrained by the budget. You know, this wasn't a
Hollywood production. This was a very independent film
made on a shoestring, really, You know, it's just very
dedicated team who went out there and wanted to celebrate
(13:04):
the story of Mercedes Glides. So the budget, yeah, definitely
impacted a lot of what we were doing.
But we kind of, you know, had tolook at creative ways of getting
round the budgetary issues that we face.
So for instance, recreating the the period of 1927.
So what we'd do, we'd, we'd bring up these classic car clubs
and because it was COVID at the time, they weren't really going
out to the, the sort of the shows and things and, and
displaying their cars. So we'd bring them up and say,
(13:26):
you know, we're doing this film,we need some 1920s vehicles.
Would you be happy to come along?
We can't really pay you, but youknow, we can give you gas money,
we can give you lunch. And I'd say 9 times out of 10,
they'd come back and they'd say,don't worry about the gas, don't
worry about the lunch. We just want to be part of this
story and have our car featured in a movie.
Wow, that's really creative. Any other ways that you really
had to stretch in terms of like creative ways of making do with
(13:49):
the budget that you had? I, I mean, it was just a very
kind of small outfit. We were very light on our feet.
You know, it was the emphasis really was on getting as much in
front of the camera as we could as opposed to kind of having
that the big entourage, you know, the behind the scenes
stuff that none of the audience actually end up seeing.
So we kind of, you know, we cut a lot of costs on on kind of the
(14:11):
the team, if you like in in the background, we had a very kind
of light outfit that just nimbleon our feet and and put as much
emphasis on what the audience are actually going to see as
possible. One of the things that it
doesn't seem like you cut back on was the music.
Wonderful score in the film. Tell me a little bit about it.
Thank you. Yeah, we had a fantastic
composer, Daniel Clyde McCallum is his name.
(14:32):
So he's a, he's an Emmy winning composer based out in Los
Angeles. So we're really lucky to get him
on board. And he he got this 60 piece
orchestra out in Eastern Europe to put the score together.
We kind of went for this sort ofclassic seafaring English
traditional kind of cello sound for Mercedes theme.
And you know, he did a terrific job.
It's an incredibly rich, immersive score, you know, for
(14:53):
for an independent movie especially.
And will there be a soundtrack release for that?
I I believe it's already been released, yeah.
So it should be available on Spotify and Apple Music I guess
already. Oh great.
So we will feature it on the program the sounds of film.
One of the things that I I really wanted to ask you is what
was the most fun for you in terms of making this film?
(15:19):
I I think for me, kind of the the period aspect of the movie
was was very fun. You kind of walk onto set and
there's all these old vehicles, you know, there's all these
people in 1920s outfits, the horse and car, old cobbled
streets. And it it really does feel as
though you've stepped back in time, which as the director is
such a kind of cool thing to witness.
You know, it feels like I was back in 1927.
(15:39):
So I think for me that was one of the the coolest things.
But then also the experience of filming out on the water.
I just don't think that's something I'll ever be able to
convince anybody to let me do again.
So having, you know, spending the time out there and on those
beautiful sunny days that you'llsee in the film, it was just
incredible. You know, it was, it was such a
joy to kind of have that as my as my office for three years.
(15:59):
It's amazing what you've been able to do with low budgets so
far in your life. Can you imagine if one day the
studios open up their wallet to you and it allow you to make,
you know, like a $300 million movie?
Are you ready for something likethat that?
That'd be pretty nice. Yeah.
I mean, if, if they're, if they're listening, you know, I'd
take that for the next one for sure.
(16:21):
If you were able to get a big budget like that, what what
would be the things that you'd most be looking forward to in
terms of making movies? I'd probably give myself a
bigger salary, but, but no, I mean, in terms of the movie, I,
I don't know. I think the budget's always
going to be relative to the story you're trying to tell.
(16:41):
So, you know, if it was a big epic, then naturally that's
going to demand a larger budget.I think for vindication swim.
We would have spent too much if we, if we'd, you know, plowed
300 million into, into a movie like that.
It just doesn't require that sort of level of, of, of
financing. So I think it, you know, it
would really kind of be dependent upon the story.
But I, I, I love that kind of epic cinema.
I'm a big fan of David Lean and and Lawrence Arabia and, you
(17:02):
know, his epic movies. So yeah, if I kind of had a
budget like that at my disposal,that's the kind of thing I'd
want to be making. Well, I have to give you credit.
I mean, between getting those shots where you believe it's in
the time period that the film took place and and the score and
the water shots and the acting, it just seems like this film
(17:24):
could have cost over 100, two, $100 million.
It's very impressive. Thank.
You very much. Yeah, it really has like a big
budget look to it. So what's next for you?
Well, we got this, you know, this great release in the in the
US, we're kind of taking it theatrically to a number of
theaters. We got open in New York tonight,
(17:44):
actually at the Quad. Then we've got New Jersey
tomorrow, Connecticut the day after, and a number of screens
in California. We've got LA, San Diego, Santa
Barbara and San Francisco. So we're kind of going all over
the country with the film, whichwill be great to kind of connect
with American audiences and and see how they react to it.
But then it turns out the film projects, I've got a, I've got a
few on the go. One's a sort of a true crime
(18:05):
thriller. It was also set in the 1930s.
So there's that one kind of raising the funds for at the
moment. And I got another.
It's a First World War survival thriller, another one about
this, this Jewish kid growing upin in South Africa during the
apartheid era. So there's a number of projects.
They're all kind of tied together with this sort of
historical thread. That's really your thing, isn't
it? You like that?
(18:27):
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's something very
interesting about looking back and finding these sort of
unknown stories and, and, and bringing them back to life
through film. You know, for me, that's
something I, I certainly enjoy. I think there's a lot we can
learn from them as well. Well, what is it that you hope
that people learn from this current film?
(18:47):
I think the main thing is just to be inspired by the story of
Mercedes Glides, not necessarilyto go out there and and, you
know, swim the English Channel or anything like that, but but
just to be inspired to kind of do anything in your life.
You know, as I said earlier, I think there's a real sort of
relevance to me as a film maker to what, you know, in terms of
what Mercedes did. So I think there's a lot of
people can take from this whatever walk of life you're in,
(19:08):
whatever career you're in. I think the story of Mercedes
Black just really has this incredible potential to to
inspire people. Well, you mentioned Vindication.
Swim is playing all over the place.
Is there a place online that people can go to learn where
it's playing and also just to find out about your work?
Yes, so they can they can followus on social media.
(19:29):
Mine's just my name at Elliot Hassler or the film is at
Vindication Swim Film and then we'll be releasing digitally all
throughout the United States on the 18th of November, which is
also Mercedes like 125th birthday.
Well, Elliot, I'm so excited that I had a chance to speak
with you. You're going to have such a
major career. You already do.
I want to highly recommend Vindication Swim.
(19:52):
It's really an inspiring story, very well made, and I can't wait
to see the other films that you mentioned.
We'll have to talk again in the future, but thank you so much,
Elliot. Good luck with everything.
No worries, thanks so much for having me on the show.
Hi, this is Tom Needham and you're listening to the sounds
of film. Today we're speaking with
British filmmaker Elliot Hassler, the writer and director
of Vindication Swim, an incredible, inspiring biopic
about Mercedes Glides, the firstBritish woman to swim the
English Channel. The film brings to life her
(00:22):
extraordinary determination and the challenges she faced both in
the frigid waters and in a male dominated 1920s England.
Elliot, thank you so much for joining us today on The Sounds
of Film. No worries at all, thanks for
having me on. Yeah, So what first drew you to
the story of Mercedes? Well, I've never actually heard
(00:44):
of Mercedes Glides and we share the same hometown.
We're both born in Brighton on the South Coast of England.
So, you know, having grown up there and, you know, lived by
the Channel my whole life, I really should have known who she
was. And then I kind of discovered
the story, you know, about her and kind of started reading
about it. You know, I thought, wow, this
would really make a, you know, agreat movie.
And it kind of all came on from there.
(01:04):
Really. It was sort of this sort of
desire to bring her name back into kind of the public memory
where it where it ought to be because she was such a huge
celebrity back in the back in the 20s and 30s when she was
doing these incredible swims allover the world.
Can you tell us a little bit about your film career?
You're relatively relatively young and it's a big thing to
choose a film project to do because it can really
(01:27):
distinguish you and and make your career.
You've had some success already,but just tell us a little bit
about your career thus far. Yes, I've been making films
since I was about 10. That was when I first got into
it. It was a school project.
That's what I was at at the timewhere instead of doing lessons,
they made a film over the courseof a week.
And that was kind of my first experience of being behind the
(01:50):
camera. You know, I'd always grown up
loving films and watching them and things.
But. But that was kind of my first,
yeah, sort of foray into the actual world of film making.
And I just fell in love with it from there.
You know, I thought it was such a such a fantastic thing to do.
And from then on, I started making, you know, little kind of
amateur projects with friends and family and that kind of
thing. And then when I was 14, I
decided to make a film about my great grandfather and his
(02:11):
experiences as a, as a prisoner of war in Italy during the
Second World War. And he, he escaped and he made
this huge, incredible journey across the country.
So I, I kind of took it upon myself to make that while I was
at school with, you know, just agroup of friends kind of did it
on the weekends. It was an amateur project, you
know, nothing, nothing particularly advanced, tiny
budget, but it did incredibly well.
It got Auk and AUS release. We launched it last year.
(02:33):
We saw this Paramount plus. So it's now on there, UK, France
and Italy. So, you know, it kind of took on
this life of its own and did anddid incredibly well.
And then off the back of that I was able to come on to do
Vindication swim. And what appeared to you to be
the the best reason to do this film as your next film?
I think everything kind of aligned pretty well with that
(02:56):
being the next one. You know, I kind of, I found
this story and it kind of, it resonated pretty well with me at
that moment in time. I think, you know, on a much
smaller scale, there's a lot of parallels with what Mercedes did
to kind of, you know, how it is starting out in the film
industry, you know, kind of justthe the resilience, the
determination, you know, it's not an easy industry to break
into. So those traits of Mercedes
gleit certainly resonated prettystrongly with me.
(03:17):
And, and it just felt like, you know, kind of the right time to
be, to be telling the story. Yeah, So why is it so hard right
now to make films in the industry?
Well, it's an interesting one because I think technically it's
got easier to make films, you know, in terms of the the kit
and and what you need to actually shoot a movie.
You know, you have a 4K camera in your pocket these days.
(03:38):
So I think actually making filmshas become easier.
But but it's just the whole kindof process of actually breaking
into this industry has become a lot, a lot more challenging.
I don't know if that's because there's more films out there or
just because the the industry isin a bit of a slump at the
moment, Maybe a bit of both. I don't know.
But it it certainly is tough these days.
Can you tell me a little bit about what it's like making
films that are eventually shown in America, but you're you're in
(04:01):
England? Yeah.
I mean, you know, when we began this film, it was we kind of
didn't really think about it so much in terms of where it was
going to end up, which I know isa bit of a cardinal sin in the
world of film making. But that was kind of how this
one was. You know, it was a group of
people who are very passionate about this story and kind of
bringing it to life. And then over the course of
making it, COVID hit and the world open border swimming just
(04:24):
absolutely boomed. So it took on this whole new
kind of life after that and it really did become, you know,
quite a big deal in the UK. We as an indie film, we thought
maybe we get kind of 1-2 weeks in theatres.
We ended up having this huge 18 week run, you know, 300 theatres
all around the UK. It just, it really did kind of,
you know, go crazy. And it was, it was fantastic to
witness, you know, because we'd spent so long working on the
(04:44):
film to kind of have that reception.
And that release was, was just absolutely fantastic.
And then it's allowed us to, youknow, bring the film across to
the States where we're, you know, bringing it to.
We've got a number of screens kind of the tri-state area.
And then we're doing California,Canada after that as well.
So it's just, you know, it has really taken on this life of its
own and kind of bringing this story of Mercedes Glides out
there to the world. Is Mercedes just still to this
(05:06):
day very very well known and popular there that the film was
so successful? Or is it just that the film got
a buzz and and people just kept on turning out to see it?
Yeah, I mean, it was the latter really.
Mercedes, unfortunately, has become kind of a forgotten
figure since her swims back in, you know, nearly 100 years ago.
So yes, she she was not well known at all.
(05:28):
No one really knew about her. Most people we brought onto the
movie, you know, they were like,who is this woman?
And then they started reading about her and then came very,
you know, passionate about bringing her story back.
But but but yeah, I'd say she's probably as well known in the UK
as she is out here, which, you know, unfortunately isn't very
well known at all. So it's kind of, you know, been
through the film that we've had this, you know, fantastic
resurgence in her, in her legacy.
Tell me about the title, the vindication story.
(05:52):
What that vindication means? It sounds a little tricky
without giving too much away, but essentially Mercedes was
implicated in this whole kind ofcheating hoax scandal.
There was a rival swimmer that came along after she'd swam the
English Channel and kind of claimed to have done the same
thing. And, and it launched this huge
hoax, this big scandal. It was called the hoax of the
(06:12):
century at the time. So it was, you know, an
incredibly big deal. And essentially Mercedes was
accused of kind of falsifying her swim.
And then she had to go out thereand, and prove that she had done
it and that she could in fact swim the English Channel.
She had to vindicate herself, you know, Hence the.
Hence the. Title So this is not just a
movie about showing her swimming.
(06:33):
It's also much more than that interms of her personal life and
what she had to go through and and what the time period was
like, right? Yeah, absolutely.
You know, it's really kind of a battle against the
establishment. You know, she's got to really
fight for what she believes in and what she feels she's capable
of. And she's got so many different
sort of, you know, barriers up against her.
(06:55):
She's a woman in the 1920s. She's she's of the working
class. She's also the daughter of
German immigrants. So she has all that kind of
racism after the First World Wartowards people of German
heritage. So, you know, kind of every,
every prejudice really she's up against and she has to kind of
knock all the, you know, down all these barriers and, and go
out there and then battle against Mother Nature itself to,
to achieve her dreams and why? Do you think a story like that
(07:16):
is just as relevant today in 2025?
I think in a, in a way, it's a bit of a sad reflection on our
society that is still relevant because, you know, I think those
problems should have gone away. But but unfortunately, you know,
there are still a lot of barriers that face women today.
And, you know, obviously people who have a races and things like
that, You know, there are a lot of issues in the world.
And I think, you know, these sorts of stories of people
(07:38):
overcoming adversity and, and persevering and, and going out
there and accomplishing what they want to do.
I think, you know, are incredibly timely.
And there's always going to be kind of a relevance of these
Trail Blazers, these pioneers who who defied the sort of
societal expectations of their era and achieve these incredible
things. I've heard some people compare
you to Spielberg. Spielberg famously made Jaws and
(08:02):
told everyone about how hard it was to make a film on the water.
How was the experience for you? I It was very hard.
Yeah, we probably should have heeded Spielberg's warnings
about coming out there, but it, I mean, it was incredibly tough
that the production itself took three years.
So that kind of gives you a sense of what we were up
(08:23):
against. But, you know, I mean, sometimes
we'd go out there on the EnglishChannel, we'd get like one or
two shots in the can and we'd have to abandon the shoot
because the winds had changed, the tides had changed, and then
it was just no longer safe to carry on.
I think the very first day that we went out there, I think kind
of epitomizes the the difficultyof the shoot.
It was a little too choppy, a little too rough to be going
out. And, you know, because we were
(08:43):
kind of naive to it. It was the first day we went
with it and everyone was struck with really bad seasickness.
And and poor John Locke, who plays Mercedes coach in the
film, he was vomiting over one side of the boat, turning to the
other side, delivering his linesand then vomiting back into the
ocean again. So, you know, I think that just
kind of goes to show the challenges we're up against kind
of a daily basis working like this.
It was a, it was, you know, a strange office to be in for
(09:04):
three years. Was it ever dangerous at any
point? Yeah, absolutely.
We the worst it got. We knew he loved the producer.
One of the shoots. That one wasn't a, you know,
wasn't a fun day. Luckily we didn't, otherwise I
think the film never would have been made.
But kind of we were out there shooting.
An actor had to be taken into shore because he had another
(09:25):
another engagement he had to getback for.
So we were swapping out with a body double and then we went
back out and and the producer inthe meantime had elected to stay
out in the channel to kind of speed up the process.
So he was bobbing around for about two miles offshore in a
little sort of RIB with an outboard motor on it holding the
production rowing boat. And, and then in the meantime,
we were back, you know, droppingthis actor off and had to come
(09:46):
back out and, and, you know, find him again.
And as soon as we cleared the harbour wall, I mean, the
visibility had just shrunk down to pretty much nothing.
You couldn't see anything really.
And, and the waves had picked up.
It was, it was hailing, you know, it's just awful, awful
conditions. And, you know, we really did
think we'd lost him. It was probably about 20 minutes
of, of searching kind of frantically.
And, and we happened to eventually come up on these
fishing boats that had formed this circle.
(10:09):
And, you know, lo and behold, inthe middle of this circle,
there's the producer floating around.
But they just, you know, kind of.
Sheltered him. That's wild.
Tell me about about Kirsten Callaghan.
She was incredible in the movie and this must have been a tough
film for her to make. Yeah, no, it was incredibly
tough for Kirsten, but she knowsshe really rose to the occasion
(10:31):
on it. She was.
I know. I don't think we could have
found anyone else to play Mercedes.
Not only do they look identical,you know, they're a real
spitting image of one another. But I think Kirsten just really
embodied those traits that make the character, the resilience,
you know, the perseverance, determination.
She really kind of, you know, came into her own with this
film. So she did, you know, an
incredible job and she did all the swimming.
There was no body double S in this film.
(10:52):
When we did our audition, one ofthe things she said was that she
wanted to do all the swimming herself, have no body double S
and and really kind of put herself into Mercedes shoes and
feel that discomfort in the English Channel.
And, you know, sometimes we werefilming because it was 4 hours.
She was in the water at a time and it's it's cold out there.
So she she really suffered for her art with this film.
But I think, you know, it just goes to show, you know, how how
(11:13):
how kind of passionate she was for the movie in in her
performance. Did she?
Ever have any problems with jellyfish or anything like that?
Luckily we didn't have any problems with jellyfish.
She had a bad cramp one day, which I've never seen a cramp
like it was like a, you could see it was like a tennis ball
was like stuck in her leg. It was, it was, it was really
pretty bad. But I think that was sort of the
(11:34):
worst experience she had. But it's just that, you know,
the biting cold of, of being outthere and coming out the water
and getting back in and kind of you're not swimming much because
we've got a kind of reset between takes.
She's kind of just floating there and getting colder and
colder. Wow, did she ever at any point
to start to think, wow, maybe I could do this swim like the full
swim? I I think it was probably the
(11:55):
opposite. I think it's put her off ever
watching tries. For the English Channel for
real. Why is that?
Just because it's so hard, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a
real feat of endurance. I mean, even today more people
have climbed Mount Everest than have swung the English Channel,
which, you know, I think just goes to show how difficult and
and physically challenging it actually is.
Why is it so hard? Well, it's just a very, you
(12:19):
know, very tempestuous stretch of water.
It's, it's 21 miles across, but there's all sorts of currents
and, and things like that. So, you know, if you missed the
tide, for instance, on your swim, it can add 6 hours onto it
because you've got to, you know,battle against the current and,
and, and you know, make the tideagain.
So there's just all kind of things that can go wrong.
It's, you know, it's incredibly challenging swim and it's kind
of almost, you know, kind of thegold standard.
Really we're in the swimming world of of, of, you know, kind
(12:41):
of that kind of achievement. Can you tell me a little bit
about how whatever budget you had affected the way that you
had to shoot the movie? I mean, yeah, we were definitely
very constrained by the budget. You know, this wasn't a
Hollywood production. This was a very independent film
made on a shoestring, really, You know, it's just very
dedicated team who went out there and wanted to celebrate
(13:04):
the story of Mercedes Glides. So the budget, yeah, definitely
impacted a lot of what we were doing.
But we kind of, you know, had tolook at creative ways of getting
round the budgetary issues that we face.
So for instance, recreating the the period of 1927.
So what we'd do, we'd, we'd bring up these classic car clubs
and because it was COVID at the time, they weren't really going
out to the, the sort of the shows and things and, and
displaying their cars. So we'd bring them up and say,
(13:26):
you know, we're doing this film,we need some 1920s vehicles.
Would you be happy to come along?
We can't really pay you, but youknow, we can give you gas money,
we can give you lunch. And I'd say 9 times out of 10,
they'd come back and they'd say,don't worry about the gas, don't
worry about the lunch. We just want to be part of this
story and have our car featured in a movie.
Wow, that's really creative. Any other ways that you really
had to stretch in terms of like creative ways of making do with
(13:49):
the budget that you had? I, I mean, it was just a very
kind of small outfit. We were very light on our feet.
You know, it was the emphasis really was on getting as much in
front of the camera as we could as opposed to kind of having
that the big entourage, you know, the behind the scenes
stuff that none of the audience actually end up seeing.
So we kind of, you know, we cut a lot of costs on on kind of the
(14:11):
the team, if you like in in the background, we had a very kind
of light outfit that just nimbleon our feet and and put as much
emphasis on what the audience are actually going to see as
possible. One of the things that it
doesn't seem like you cut back on was the music.
Wonderful score in the film. Tell me a little bit about it.
Thank you. Yeah, we had a fantastic
composer, Daniel Clyde McCallum is his name.
(14:32):
So he's a, he's an Emmy winning composer based out in Los
Angeles. So we're really lucky to get him
on board. And he he got this 60 piece
orchestra out in Eastern Europe to put the score together.
We kind of went for this sort ofclassic seafaring English
traditional kind of cello sound for Mercedes theme.
And you know, he did a terrific job.
It's an incredibly rich, immersive score, you know, for
(14:53):
for an independent movie especially.
And will there be a soundtrack release for that?
I I believe it's already been released, yeah.
So it should be available on Spotify and Apple Music I guess
already. Oh great.
So we will feature it on the program the sounds of film.
One of the things that I I really wanted to ask you is what
was the most fun for you in terms of making this film?
(15:19):
I I think for me, kind of the the period aspect of the movie
was was very fun. You kind of walk onto set and
there's all these old vehicles, you know, there's all these
people in 1920s outfits, the horse and car, old cobbled
streets. And it it really does feel as
though you've stepped back in time, which as the director is
such a kind of cool thing to witness.
You know, it feels like I was back in 1927.
(15:39):
So I think for me that was one of the the coolest things.
But then also the experience of filming out on the water.
I just don't think that's something I'll ever be able to
convince anybody to let me do again.
So having, you know, spending the time out there and on those
beautiful sunny days that you'llsee in the film, it was just
incredible. You know, it was, it was such a
joy to kind of have that as my as my office for three years.
(15:59):
It's amazing what you've been able to do with low budgets so
far in your life. Can you imagine if one day the
studios open up their wallet to you and it allow you to make,
you know, like a $300 million movie?
Are you ready for something likethat that?
That'd be pretty nice. Yeah.
I mean, if, if they're, if they're listening, you know, I'd
take that for the next one for sure.
(16:21):
If you were able to get a big budget like that, what what
would be the things that you'd most be looking forward to in
terms of making movies? I'd probably give myself a
bigger salary, but, but no, I mean, in terms of the movie, I,
I don't know. I think the budget's always
going to be relative to the story you're trying to tell.
(16:41):
So, you know, if it was a big epic, then naturally that's
going to demand a larger budget.I think for vindication swim.
We would have spent too much if we, if we'd, you know, plowed
300 million into, into a movie like that.
It just doesn't require that sort of level of, of, of
financing. So I think it, you know, it
would really kind of be dependent upon the story.
But I, I, I love that kind of epic cinema.
I'm a big fan of David Lean and and Lawrence Arabia and, you
(17:02):
know, his epic movies. So yeah, if I kind of had a
budget like that at my disposal,that's the kind of thing I'd
want to be making. Well, I have to give you credit.
I mean, between getting those shots where you believe it's in
the time period that the film took place and and the score and
the water shots and the acting, it just seems like this film
(17:24):
could have cost over 100, two, $100 million.
It's very impressive. Thank.
You very much. Yeah, it really has like a big
budget look to it. So what's next for you?
Well, we got this, you know, this great release in the in the
US, we're kind of taking it theatrically to a number of
theaters. We got open in New York tonight,
(17:44):
actually at the Quad. Then we've got New Jersey
tomorrow, Connecticut the day after, and a number of screens
in California. We've got LA, San Diego, Santa
Barbara and San Francisco. So we're kind of going all over
the country with the film, whichwill be great to kind of connect
with American audiences and and see how they react to it.
But then it turns out the film projects, I've got a, I've got a
few on the go. One's a sort of a true crime
(18:05):
thriller. It was also set in the 1930s.
So there's that one kind of raising the funds for at the
moment. And I got another.
It's a First World War survival thriller, another one about
this, this Jewish kid growing upin in South Africa during the
apartheid era. So there's a number of projects.
They're all kind of tied together with this sort of
historical thread. That's really your thing, isn't
it? You like that?
(18:27):
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's something very
interesting about looking back and finding these sort of
unknown stories and, and, and bringing them back to life
through film. You know, for me, that's
something I, I certainly enjoy. I think there's a lot we can
learn from them as well. Well, what is it that you hope
that people learn from this current film?
(18:47):
I think the main thing is just to be inspired by the story of
Mercedes Glides, not necessarilyto go out there and and, you
know, swim the English Channel or anything like that, but but
just to be inspired to kind of do anything in your life.
You know, as I said earlier, I think there's a real sort of
relevance to me as a film maker to what, you know, in terms of
what Mercedes did. So I think there's a lot of
people can take from this whatever walk of life you're in,
(19:08):
whatever career you're in. I think the story of Mercedes
Black just really has this incredible potential to to
inspire people. Well, you mentioned Vindication.
Swim is playing all over the place.
Is there a place online that people can go to learn where
it's playing and also just to find out about your work?
Yes, so they can they can followus on social media.
(19:29):
Mine's just my name at Elliot Hassler or the film is at
Vindication Swim Film and then we'll be releasing digitally all
throughout the United States on the 18th of November, which is
also Mercedes like 125th birthday.
Well, Elliot, I'm so excited that I had a chance to speak
with you. You're going to have such a
major career. You already do.
I want to highly recommend Vindication Swim.
(19:52):
It's really an inspiring story, very well made, and I can't wait
to see the other films that you mentioned.
We'll have to talk again in the future, but thank you so much,
Elliot. Good luck with everything.
No worries, thanks so much for having me on the show.
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