Both embracing your silence and using your voice can be sources of power, but how do you know how to tell? In this soul-stirring episode of Space To Exhale: The Podcast, Lisa sits down with the brilliant Elaine Lin Hering—facilitator, keynote speaker, and author of the must-read book Unlearning Silence. Together, they explore the delicate dance between the silence imposed on us, and the silence we intentionally claim.
They speak honestly about both the cost and the value of staying quiet, how to know when our silence is harming us, and the courage it takes to unlearn that silence and reclaim our voices—especially as women of color navigating systems that often reward our invisibility. Elaine shares how she’s rewriting her relationship with voice, agency, self-love, and boundaries—and invites us to do the same.
This is not just a conversation. It is also a mirror and a meditation. Tune in and exhale as the two kindred spirits discuss:
💚 The difference between imposed silence and chosen stillness—and why that matters.
💚 How to recognize when your silence is self-protective vs. self-erasing.
💚 Practices for tuning into the “quiet within” even when the world is loud.
💚 What it means to reclaim your voice without betraying your peace.
💚 Why unlearning silence is an act of liberation.
CREDITS:
👸🏽Host & Executive Producer: Lisa Hurley, author of Space To Exhale and Founder of The Great Exhale
👸🏽Guest: Elaine Lin Hering, author of Unlearning Silence (Penguin, 2024)
👸🏽Podcast Producer: Latrice Torres, CEO of LeaderKeysConsulting
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SHOW NOTES
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Learn more: https://elainelinhering.com/
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ABOUT SPACE TO EXHALE:
Say no to hustle culture, and yes to a life of ease. In Space To Exhale, Lisa Hurley, Anthem Award-winning activist and founder of The Great Exhale, provides you with an inspiring and practical guide to help you beat burnout, embrace rest, and live a soft, fulfilling life.
Part memoir, part manifesto, part m
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
None. Take a breath.
I am Lisa Hurley, activist, author and community builder.
(00:53):
Welcome to Space to Exhale, the podcast weekly inspiration for
self love and soft living. Music folks and welcome to Space
(01:36):
to Exhale the podcast, a safe, serene sanctuary where we focus
on high vibrations, affirmations, soft living and
self-care. I am your host Lisa Hurley.
I'm a three time Anthem award-winning activist, A Reiki
master and the author of Space to Exhale, a handbook.
(01:59):
Handbook for curating a soft, centered, serene life.
I'm here to help us all do just that.
Relax, take a breath, say no to hustle culture, and yes to a
life of ease. My hope and a dream is for us
all to curate lives that we don't feel we need a break from.
(02:23):
And today, I am super excited tointroduce to you my guest and my
friend, Elaine Lynn Herring. Elaine, welcome to the show.
Oh thank you for having me. Also that intro was exactly what
I needed today. I was literally doing the
stretches with the video page. Good, good, good.
(02:47):
Yeah. No, it's like you have to set
the tone. You have to set the tone for,
for what we're going to do today.
Now before I mean you, you know,you've listened to a few of
these so you know what's about to happen next.
And you probably don't want it to happen, but I'm going to
introduce you properly. I like to let the people know,
let the people know who they're listening to and why you, why
(03:10):
you are here specifically. And so folks listen to this and
just get ready because when I, when I read this bio, y'all
ain't ready. That's all I'm saying.
I was reading and I was like, Ohmy gosh.
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.
You know what? I have curated a life that I
don't need a break from. There you go.
(03:31):
How's that and it shows in your bio.
I love that. So Elaine Lynn Herring helps
people build communication, collaboration, and conflict
management skills. She has worked on 6 continents,
taught at Harvard, Dartmouth, Tufts, UC Berkeley, and UCLA,
and is a former lecturer on law at Harvard Law School.
(03:55):
That's just paragraph one, folks.
I'm absolutely going to be the peanut gallery.
Here. Oh, it's amazing.
It's amazing. I love it.
She has worked with coal miners,microfinance organizers, mental
health professionals and senior government leadership.
(04:15):
Her clients include name brands such as American Express,
Google, Nike, Novartis, Pixar, and the Red Cross.
She has been recognized as one of the top management thinkers
to watch by Thinkers 50 and is the USA TODAY best selling
author of Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash
(04:39):
Talent and Live More Fully. Unlearning Silence was named the
best personal development human behavior book of 2024 by Porch
Light. So once again, Elaine, welcome.
Thank you for having me, allowing me to be in this space
with beautiful brilliant wise you.
(05:02):
Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.
I, you know, we, it's, it's, I love LinkedIn because moments
like this can happen. There's a lot of foolishness on
LinkedIn. Both know there's a lot of
foolishness, but moments like this and connections like this
make all of that worth it because, you know, you and I
(05:22):
just connected and vibed and have been supporting each other
just quietly behind the scenes. And I love everything about it,
everything. So thank you for really being in
community with me. Absolutely right back at you.
Thank you. Thank you.
As usual. You folks know before we get
(05:42):
into the meat of the episode, and it is going to be, it's
going to be juicy. It's going to be a juicy one.
We're going to take a moment to exhale together.
So we're going to get grounded and take a few deep breaths in
whatever way works for you. So if you want to close your
eyes, do that. If you are seated, get a bit
(06:02):
more comfortable. If you're lying down, you know,
sort of on your couch, just like, yeah, wiggle into the
couch a little bit into those cushions and get really
comfortable. Close your eyes and now inhale
and exhale, and one more inhale and a deep exhale, and once
(06:35):
again inhale and exhale. OK, so come back into the room.
And as you're coming back in, I want to read to you a brief
excerpt from Elaine's USA TODAY best selling book on learning
(06:57):
silence. And it is.
Silence is, by definition, an absence.
Absence of voice, absence of opinion, absence of life.
It starts so subtly that we don't even notice it.
Often silence is the path of least resistance.
(07:18):
Too often, it seems the only path.
Our habits around silence are soreflexive we forget we have a
choice. When you've learned to live with
silence, you forget the possibility of what could be.
Well, just I, I love, I love your words.
(07:39):
I I had meant to have my copy ofUnlearning Silence here because
it is just it's just like post its now it's like that beautiful
hombre blue and that a sea of yellow post its so it has been
redesigned. Love it you.
Love it. It is a beautiful book, you
(07:59):
know, obviously on the outside, but the the words and the themes
I absolutely love. So my first question for you is,
can you share a moment in your life when you realized that your
silence was not protecting you anymore, but it was costing you?
Yeah, you know, you want to havethese.
(08:21):
I, I, in the movie version of mylife, have these big aha moments
where the music crescendos and there's tension and then there's
the de Numa and, you know, the clouds break and the
everything's clear. My real life doesn't work like
that. How does your real life work?
Because your real life is sounding kind of like my real
(08:43):
life. So tell me a little more.
I thought about this as I was coming back in the house this
morning after dropping off my kid.
I had a water bottle, I had a snack box, I had toys, I had
like the grocery bag, I had trash from the car.
And I thought, this is not the version of us that other people
see, right? Someone else said to me the
(09:03):
other day and sort of a catch upcall tell me everything.
I think they were probably expecting something juicy like
some big contract or client engagement or keynote stage and
those are all parts of my life. But my reply I think caught them
off guard and I said you want toknow everything.
(09:26):
My kitchen is sticky right now and I don't know why.
Listen, my kitchen is sticky. That actually in its own way
needs to be AT shirt because that is the reality of life.
That is the reality of life. The kitchen is sticky.
You know, if you have pets, you know, there's fur everywhere.
(09:47):
There's Legos that are wait, lying in wait for you to step on
them, right? The male.
The male is piling up. Whatever.
Yeah. Yes, yes, and and in terms of
space to exhale, you know what? My kitchen is sticky and can I
let it be? Which oftentimes the answer is
no. Yeah, Right, right, right.
(10:08):
Fair enough. Fair enough.
Because I want to get to that exhale and that beautiful space
in the I just have baseline, just a baseline.
But if there's only so much of me to go around, then I've got
to choose. Yeah, and.
Maybe I can live with the sticky.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes you do have to live with the sticky for
(10:29):
a moment. And sometimes you realize that
there, there is in some ways there is a bit of beauty in
those sticky moments. There is some beauty, right?
There is. I remember, obviously, you know,
my niece is very much an adult right now, but I still, you know
how we adults are. We remember them when they were
(10:49):
like teeny tiny. She's probably cringing as I'm
saying this, but I remember those moments, you know, her
tiny little feet and, you know, just those little hugs.
And, yeah, sometimes there's like a little element of juice
box in the car, right? But that's OK.
That is OK, you know? So, yeah, it is.
It is absolutely OK. So are there moments then when
(11:12):
in regular life you have to makea choice between, OK, am I going
to choose voice or choose silence, like just in regular
everyday life? I mean, clearly at work, yeah,
definitely, yeah. But in everyday life, with your
family, with your friends, your wider social circle, how do you
(11:34):
navigate those moments? All the time.
Let me actually answer your yourfirst question which is the the
moment. Go over, listen this
conversation. I know we want it to go.
I know as I was thinking about the sticky I got distracted.
I got to this question of, you know, the silence served me for
a very long time, particularly at work but also at home.
(11:55):
I was the peacemaker because I didn't seem to have any needs,
goals, hopes, dreams of my own that other people needed to
solve for. I was easy to work with.
I was a good team player becauseI'm just here to serve.
Now what happens? None of your own needs are met
and you also become a shell of the person you could be because
(12:17):
you're busy living someone else's life.
And it was a wait your turn Elaine situation in in the
workplace that I was part of at the time.
And I looked around thinking, well, if I'm waiting my turn,
I'm going to be waiting a very long time because the person
(12:39):
ahead of me isn't isn't moving. Right.
And so do I really have to play by this supposed norm?
Also, I think we've gotten it wrong.
All the calls to just speak up, be louder, clearer, more
courageous, more confident, Thatall seems wrong off because it
(13:02):
is not just about speaking up. But how do we navigate this
thing called silence? That I've learned from the way I
was raised, the family I was part of, right?
Youngest daughter, immigrant family from Taiwan to the United
States, grew up in the church, right?
Maybe that explains everything. Listen, you are, listen, you are
preaching actually to a lot of people right now, right.
(13:24):
And there's certain, there's certain norms across people of
the diaspora, of different diasporas, but there are, but
there are commonalities, right? Yes, I understand what you just
said. So now I will quote from one of
my favorite books forthcoming soon, bio author Lisa Hurley, A
Good Life. This is page 17, chapter 1 for
(13:46):
those of you taking notes or want to post it when you're
copied. On the time.
A good life must be grounded in authenticity.
The life of our dreams must be based in who we are in reality,
not who someone else thinks we should be.
I love that. Who are we?
Do we know who we are? Are we chasing a life that other
(14:11):
people want for us, of us, because it benefits them,
Because they don't have to change if we can play that role?
But do we get to be who we are? And by voice, I mean not just
the words you say, but how you get to live.
Yeah, yeah. Voice.
I I loved that you in, in, in your book, you used the phrase,
(14:35):
you know, choosing voice and choosing voice and using voice.
And I had never actually heard it phrase that way.
You know, we do. We do love the coining of a new
phrase. Yes, yes, we do.
Right. As as as word nerds and authors
and so on. And so I loved your framing of
choosing voices, but I definitely got the I, I was able
(14:58):
to pick up what you were puttingdown in terms of it's not
literally your not only literally your voice, your
speaking voice. It is your energy, your
presence, how you choose to movethrough the world.
And so something you kind of alluded to just now is the
silence that is imposed on us, right?
(15:20):
And that that's part of what we really want to dig into in this
episode. Silence is that is imposed on US
versus silence and stillness that we cultivate within
ourselves. And, you know, so often we're so
used to being silenced, we don'teven know the difference between
the two. Like, is it them?
Is it us? Is it from the world and
(15:42):
society? Is this something that I've
selected for myself? Like how can people even begin
to tell the difference between the two?
Yeah. And even as you're saying that,
I noticed my body tensing up. Yeah.
So for anyone might do, yeah. So for anyone who needs a
breath, yeah, let's go back to the to the beautiful face that
(16:03):
you have curated to really exhale.
Because part of the work of unlearning silence is realizing
that it's there, and that can beincredibly disorienting.
OK, say that one. Say that one more time for the
people, because that was that was a little that was a little
(16:25):
bit of church right there. Say it one more time.
Part of the work of unlearning silence is realizing,
recognizing that it is there. What parts of myself might I
have hidden? Might I have dampened down?
Might I have put on the back burner?
Is it because of me, as you're saying?
(16:46):
Is it because of someone else? I don't know.
It's all woven up in a ball of wax.
Wound up in a ball of wax, right?
They at work, they said you're too much.
Did I start to believe that? They said I was too loud, too
overbearing, too too quiet. Fill in the blank.
(17:07):
You hear these narratives and then we're told you need to take
the feedback. And it's hard not to internalize
it, particularly if you're getting some of the similar
messages at home or in your personal relationships.
Yes, yes. Is it them?
Is it me? I don't know.
By the way, I'm a grown ass woman.
And how can I not know who I am?Yeah, Now that's an
(17:30):
uncomfortable place. A lot of us don't.
A lot of us don't. A lot of us don't, and there's
not space to do that because my life, whether at work or at
home, is set up around this person that I am currently
showing up as. And if I evolve, change,
stretch, learn, then the people around me also need to shift.
(17:55):
But are they willing to? If we're going to stay in
relationship. Yes, yes, and.
There's some relationships that are really hard to extract from.
Oh my. Gosh.
And so it's a shift for everyone.
So is it you? Is it me?
Well, there's what is my work? Who am I?
(18:16):
I'd start with the internal work.
Listening to this podcast, sitting in a meeting at the
dinner table. The internal work is what do I
think? Do I agree with that?
Do I disagree with that? Rather than just ingesting
right, rather than just nodding and accepting?
Right. And what do I processing and
(18:36):
consciously deciding? Yes, critical thinking.
And that's why I go back to choice all the time.
You ask me, do I choose voice? Do I choose silence throughout
life? Absolutely.
Because in every moment I'm thinking, do I, do I agree with
this? Do I want to do this?
And more and more listening, is this how I want to be spending
(18:57):
my time, energy band my life. The things that we do, the
things that we choose or accept that add it all up.
That's your life. But we forget that we have a
choice because we're going on tothe next thing or the people say
you got to do this or this is what you should aspire to.
(19:18):
When is there work for that? What do I really want?
Who am I? What do I believe?
What? And so that quiet internal work
of what do I think, what do I need raises your awareness that
there is a you in there even when the world does not want to
recognize that there is an autonomous, beautiful, unique
you with gifts and skills different than anyone else.
(19:41):
They just want you to be play this role.
Yeah, because because the role that you are playing serves
them. And this is, you know, and we
love, we we love our people, right?
This is whether in personal or unprofessional relationships,
you'll keep it high level, right?
But it is in both personal and professional relationships.
(20:03):
But when we start digging into OK, who are we beyond the roles
that either have been assigned to us, sometimes that we have
chosen and and sometimes we choose a role.
But then we don't realize, hang on a second, I've outgrown this
role. I've outgrown it.
(20:24):
I have not sat still long enough.
And that that's why I wanted to discuss.
OK, there's the silence within and the silence without.
When you get into the silence within, that's when you get to
choose whether or not you even want to interact with the
silence without. You get to choose how to use
your. Voice.
Powerfully, and in a way that really serves you, as opposed to
(20:47):
just showing up on autopilot. Yes.
So the silence within goes back to your work on authenticity.
Do I know who I am? Do I know what I believe?
Do I know what I stand for? You could say it's values.
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
Do I know what I stand for and therefore my actions, behaviors,
(21:09):
life choices should flow from that?
It also is a grounding of centering and anchoring for all
of the noise, all of the wind, all of the waves around us.
Do you know who you are and do you stand by who you are?
And if so, you can sleep at night, whatever other people are
(21:30):
saying. Yes, sleep soundly and well on
that satin pillow. I'm still working on the satin
pillow. Listen, it's it's so necessary
and it's so good. I mean, OK, like I said, we're
in charge of this conversation. So we're going to do a little
segue into how good the satin orare for hair and skin and all of
(21:56):
that good stuff. Like if you're a side sleeper
and you are sleeping on a cottonpillow, you are doing yourself a
grave disservice. That is just APSA from us to
you. I feel like you're giving away
your secrets and I need to do a before and after, right?
I'm a I'm currently a cotton pillow cover sleeper.
I know sometimes I know I have much to learn.
(22:25):
We need to give our skin space. Exhale.
OK. So I love this moment because
we'll talk a year from now and Iwill glow more because I have
given my. You're already glowing.
You're already glowing though It's not real life, but that we
(22:45):
can grow, right? We are not stuck where we are
now. We can learn to sleep on satin
pillows and know what is good for our skin.
We can learn to choose, even if we do not believe that we can
choose or have historically had a choice.
We can grow and the people around us will need to figure it
(23:08):
out. Yeah, they will adjust.
They will absolutely adjust. There is, I think it's an
affirmation in in the book. I, I hope it is because I'm
about to quote it, but it's definitely something I said, but
it basically says flex, they will adjust.
And I that sorry, go on you, yougo ahead.
(23:30):
I'm doing aligning with with unlearning silence.
Totally. I'm going to do the asterisk
there just so we know and are emotionally, mentally,
relationally prepared. They will adjust.
Not without cost, not without sometimes people kicking and
screaming, true. Not without maybe some sharp
(23:50):
words or some silence from them.But that's the silence without.
That is the silence without. That does not have to have an
influence on the silence within if you know what your values
are, but I. Love.
I love that asterisk. And that is very important
because when you are grounded inyour values and when you are,
(24:13):
when you have done more of that inner work to know who you are,
to just get to know yourself better and get to love yourself
better, then yeah, some of thesepeople are going to be a bit mad
upset. There will be some spiky
adjustment periods. But that's OK.
(24:33):
Yes, it also makes sense why they might be mad if their life
has been easier based on the exploitation of your talents.
You are taking away from them something that they benefited
from. So logically it makes sense.
So do not be caught off guard ifand when that spikiness happens.
(24:56):
Do not take it as evidence that you are doing something wrong.
No, it is, it is, it is physics,right?
Let me, let me just say very I'm, I'm, I'm a linguist.
So let me just say, I'm about toenter into territory, territory
I know nothing about. So she's going though.
She's going, but. Basically it is to to each and
every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.
(25:18):
So when you flex, when you flex,when I say when you flex, they
will adjust. That is what happens.
If you push, they're going to push back.
Yes. Now, sometimes the push can turn
into a hug. It can be.
Oh, I didn't realize that. I didn't know that bothered you.
Thank you for you choosing voiceand using voice and speaking up
(25:41):
and letting me know. Yeah, baby, I'm sorry.
It could be that. It could be that.
We hope. We hope.
It's that conversation. If they're calling you baby,
that's especially. If they're calling you baby,
let's hope that is the conversation.
There are times, let's say at work, for example, if you you,
you might flex, flex, flex in whatever way you choose.
(26:01):
Flex might be speaking up in a meeting, standing up for
somebody that is being bullied, for example.
There are multiple scenarios. Choosing to redirect a
conversation to yourself when someone has spoken over you.
That's something you mentioned alot in your book, right?
And so you flex, in other words,you defend yourself, you choose
(26:22):
to speak up, you redirect and they are going to adjust.
Now the adjustment you might be adjusted upon with the company,
right? I'm just saying that that can
happen and has happened. So like you said, be prepared
when you, when you do that flex,be prepared.
Know that in terms of the laws of physics, you cannot push
(26:43):
without expecting an equal response.
Of some kind, Yes. Of some kind, yeah.
And that also goes to choice of is this in alignment with my
values and how I want to live mylife?
If I have one life to live, how do I want to live it?
(27:04):
I don't want to be staying awakeat night on my satin pillow
wondering what if yes. Exactly.
Yep, exactly. I do want to say, though, that
unlearning silence does not meansaying Everything Everywhere,
all the time to everyone, right?The world is far too noisy.
Not everyone deserves your wisdom, your insight.
(27:27):
And so part of that choice is where am I going to spend the
spoons? Where am I going to spend that
energy? Where am I going to drop my
gems? That's why chapter 3 of the book
is when silence makes sense rather than you've got to speak
up you in this way at this time or you are a bad person person.
No, it comes from a place of agency.
Is it silence that I'm choosing that can be strategic playing
(27:51):
the long game? Or is it silence that is chosen
for me because there are no other choices, It's too costly
and that that that agency to choose for yourself.
So is it the silence within? Is it silence without?
Is it, is it a silence you're choosing that serves you and
what you need today and tomorrowand in the days to come?
(28:12):
Or is it one that is imposed upon you because this is just
the narrow roll and the box thatyou are told to fit in?
I I love that I listen the, the,the honestly, the episode could
end now because that was so brilliant.
I'm like, how do you even followfollow that up?
I mean, that was absolutely amazing.
(28:33):
I actually, I chose, I normally read an excerpt also from my
book, yes, in every episode. And I wanted to, oh, you're
we're so like aligned, you know,and I actually chose an excerpt.
It's very, very short, but I think it plays into ties into
what you just spoke about. There are times when silence
(28:56):
makes sense. We do want to unlearn it, but
there are times when we need it.We're not saying to, as you
said, we're not saying to just speak all the time.
We're not saying that everybody and everything has to be loud.
We're not saying anything of that nature.
And so there are people like myself, like I'm definitely an
introvert, hardcore, 1000%. And so silence is a part of my
(29:23):
personality and my way of being in the world, even even as a
podcaster, even as somebody who partially speaks for a living.
So, so to speak, my default and my natural personality is a
quiet 1. And so for people like myself
who are not quote UN quote naturally quiet, that that
(29:48):
tension between OK, is this, is this my silence?
Is this my personality? Is it OK to be quiet?
Because you have, you have to both learn.
You have to learn and unlearn. Yes.
Learn and unlearn. And that's why I loved when I
got to that chapter in your book, I was like, yes, you know,
(30:09):
I'm like, because without that chapter about when silence makes
sense, the book, obviously, you know, you wrote it, but the book
would have been incomplete because it needed that balance.
Yes. It's also what differentiates my
book from anything else out on the market that I think for
those of us who carry subordinate identities based on
race, gender, class, ethnicity, whatever it is, we know that
(30:33):
silence sometimes is about self-care, is about survival.
You can't. You need the both and because
that is the reality of it. But taking it back to agency, I
can't wait to hear what you've chosen though to read in your
book. Thank you.
Thank you so well, let's get right into it because you know,
(30:54):
you and I will continue talking after.
But let me let me just read thisexcerpt from Chapter 3.
And we've been talking about authenticity.
And so this is an excerpt titledBe Yourself of All the Lessons
I've Learned from Mama Bear, who, by the way, is sitting
right next to me, but. Hi, Mama Bear.
(31:15):
Hi Mama Bear. Of all the lessons I've learned
from Mama Bear, this might be the most important one.
In a world that insists that we be as strident and extroverted
as possible, she demonstrates the power of quietness.
She fully embraces her introversion.
She's not a boisterous, belligerent, broad strokes
(31:36):
person. She's serene, soft spoken and
stately Oasis vibes. She's never the loudest person
in a group, but rest assured shewill make the biggest impression
instead of sucking all the air out of her room.
She elevates the energy she doesnot chase.
She attracts good people, good experiences, good fortune.
(32:01):
She stands tall, radiating dignity and positive vibes and
folks are naturally drawn to her.
She does not do drama. She vibrates at a level where
drama never even enters her ambit.
She embodies the energy of peace.
Her stillness is one of her strengths.
She refuses to be swayed by anyone who anyone else thinks.
(32:26):
Let me, let me reread that because I messed up.
It's a, it's a light. Light bloopers.
Light bloopers, people. Her stillness is one of her
strengths. She refuses to be swayed by
anyone else, by who anyone else thinks she should be.
She shows up unapologetically asherself, quiet or not.
(32:46):
She definitely has main character energy.
By modelling the beauty of beingcalm and quiet, she gave me
permission to embrace my introversion and lean into
pursuits that align with that trait.
Lesson, do you be true to yourself.
You don't have to be loud to be a leader.
(33:07):
And so I chose that because because of your chapter 3.
So the two chapter threes are talking to each other and
saying, hey, there's a nuance here.
Yes, there is a nuance. And so I, I, I just, I really
do. I'm such a fan of your book.
(33:28):
And there are, and there are actually very few books that
I've read. Like I said, I wish I had
remembered to bring it over herebecause it literally just is
posted after posted after postedby every other page.
I'm like, yes, yes, Oh my gosh. But the two chapters are
speaking to each other because both of us embrace the art and
(33:49):
existence of nuance. Well, yes, we need to unlearn
silence, but we're not. But we're not saying just be
loud all the time in every context.
We're not saying that every person necessarily has to be
extroverted. We're saying get to know
yourself, you're aware of every context and choose voice
(34:14):
strategically and in a way that is grounded in self love and to
silence strategically, Yes, in away that is grounded in self
love. And that's what I love about how
our books interplay with each other.
You know, I see, I see. I was reading it and I was
seeing, I saw so many parallels.But yes, clearly, clearly I'm a
(34:37):
fan. Thank you.
You're welcome. And you cannot love yourself or
we talk about self-care. You cannot care for yourself or
love yourself if you do not knowyourself.
Yes, yes. And how do you know yourself if
you have silenced yourself, put your own needs, goals, hopes,
(34:58):
dreams, concerns on the back burner for someone else?
Or you're in an environment where the people around you
silence you? I mean unlearning silence.
And the subtitle is Speak Your mind Unleashed talent.
Because there is some work that is not ours to do.
Can you, can you tell us more about that for the people who
(35:19):
have not yet read your book, It's available everywhere.
Purchase. Purchase.
OK, moving on. So there is how do I silence
myself right all the time, especially for me as a mother,
right? I my, my son is now I'm going to
reveal all the secrets of thingsthat parents are not supposed to
(35:42):
do, but that I'm doing. That's OK.
Listen, the the kitchen is sticky, right?
We're we're good We're we're, we're right.
We're vibing now we're vibing. We've.
Already missed any illusion thatour lives look like they do on
social media? Listen, let me take, let me take
this screen down. Y'all would run OK?
I'm just saying. I hear you.
(36:02):
Let me move the camera to 2cm tothe right.
A little bit. Yeah, exactly.
He has nightmares. He has nightmares.
What makes him feel safe to snuggle with Mama.
Oh. I love that.
OK, but when he snuggles, he then falls asleep in his deep
piece and then he waps his arm over on you, who does not get
(36:24):
sleep on their cotton pillow. Yes.
So you're on cotton and you're being, you're being punched by
your baby, right? There's many, many layers.
To this it's a trooper. It's a trooper.
Exactly. Am I putting his needs in front
of my own in that moment? Yes.
(36:46):
Am I wanting to show up as the mother that I am?
I mean, silence is so invasive and so subtle that it is really
hard at times to know, is this what I'm choosing?
Is this my voice? Is it not?
But The thing is, what you have chosen in the past or chose
yesterday or last night does nothave to be what you choose today
or tomorrow. And taking the pressure off that
(37:10):
choice makes me who I am versus I am learning, growing, I'm
experimenting with my voice, I'mfiguring it out.
I'm making the best choice that I can based on the data that I
have today. There's that.
Then there is how does the worldor how the people that I work
with or around me silence me? Well, I'd argue that there's
(37:33):
this expectation in the world atlarge that Mother should be self
sacrificial. Always present baking homemade
cookies for the school fundraiser with a smile on your
face. If we play into that, it can
erase the uniqueness of who we are in the reality of our sticky
(37:57):
kitchens. Right.
And poor sleep. Yes, yes, yes.
So so how how do you so for for people who many of us choose
self-imposed silence in uncomfortable situations, You
know, I, I will admit I'm often a fan of the path of least
(38:21):
resistance. I do I, I have it's, you know,
two sides. I have a fighter side and then I
have like, I can't be bothered side.
I I can't do this right now sideright.
But how do you do the work of really deciding that when you
know, like I like in APTA situation or something similar
(38:42):
roof, right and all of it and you come in with your Kroger's
cookies. Listen, let's just listen.
We're going to talk reality. Now.
You come in with your Kroger's cookies in the in the bag.
Yes, of course. In the in the the clam case,
right, you haven't even repackaged.
(39:03):
You have not repackaged. And then I meant the judgment of
the. Judgment.
From the plastic free folks. From the plastic free folks and
you feel like you're in Game of Thrones and people are saying
shame, shame, shame, yes and butbut people don't realize, wait,
this is actually all this mom could do.
Correct. This is all on this given day.
(39:26):
This is this is what she could do because you don't know what
else she has going on. It's a miracle.
The kid is is bathed, dressed, clean and presentable.
All their supplies are there, right?
All they don't listen. A bunch of little miracles had
to go into her showing up there with the Kroger bag and the and
(39:47):
the cupcakes that you're judgingher for.
You know my favorite part of that though, and it reminds me
of the passage you read about Mama Bear, is that as we do that
with our Kroger's cookies in theplastic, it allows other people
to do it too. That we actually create new
(40:10):
norms by how we show up and whatwe deem acceptable.
And that part that you said of no one else knows, right?
The the reason I hang on to agency of when you choose to use
your voice and when you choose to stay silent is because no one
else knows what you are carrying, what demons you are
(40:33):
fighting, what miracles it took for you to just be here.
Yeah, exactly. Never mind the cookies, yeah.
Never mind the cookies. Never mind the cookies.
I mean, even even for this show,it's, it's, it's, it's
everything, right? You and I are calling each other
on the phone. You know, it's just listen,
(40:54):
people, we're, this is reality, OK?
This part that you're seeing lovely and, and, and and equally
authentic, equally authentic in its own way.
There is also the behind the scenes.
Do you have the right link? Did it you know is it the all
all this stuff yes right and just translate that to
(41:15):
everybody's life. There is a behind the scenes, a
behind the screen right for everybody's life.
And I wish more people took thatinto consideration when having
the audacity to show up with that, with that kind of, you
know, the Kroger's judgment. Like, no, no, just enjoy the
(41:36):
cookies. They're.
So is the Kroger's judgment really coming from them, or is
it coming from me? Because if the judgment is
coming from me, I can do something about that.
You mean you mean is it? Like are are you judging
yourself on protecting that ontothem?
Because they might not be judging you at all.
Correct. This is spotlight effect in
(41:59):
action, right? I'm thinking more about my
Kroger's cookies than anyone else.
Everyone else is like, great, wegot food.
Or what about my cookies? Or you know what?
I wouldn't bring cookies. I signed up for napkins.
Listen, let me just tell you, the napkins and soda and and
plastic cutlery, we need them too.
(42:22):
We need them too, right we. Need them too.
What expectations I, I'm first one to raise my hand guilty of
this, right? What expectations do I have of
myself of what my life should look like?
And therefore I'm telling myselfI'm not measuring up because of
the expectations I had for my for myself.
Now, I may have internalized them from other people, from the
(42:44):
big screen, from the small screen, but if my narrative is I
showed up, I'm here for my kid, I even brought cookies, right?
That's a win. And you know what?
Side eye, plastic free homemade baked cookies.
That's on you. If that's how you want to live,
you do you. Let me do me that I can control.
(43:09):
That gives me some space to exhale because my voice is going
to be doing what I can. And today, that's Kroger's
cookies. Yeah, I love that.
I love that that at the top of the show you made sure to and
and in the middle that you made sure to reframe that the voice
is a concept as opposed to a biological part of the body.
(43:36):
You see what I'm saying? Yes, yes, we have voices and we
use them, but it really is you're speaking at a conceptual
level in terms of agency. Voice is how you move through
the world. Yes, Oh my gosh, I love.
That voice is how you move through the world.
And I'm I I got to follow this cookie conversation up because
you've given us license to go wherever we want.
My favorite. Yeah.
(43:57):
My neighbor spent time making cookies from scratch.
Like, asked me for an easy kid accessible recipes so they can
have bonding time with their kids.
Took them four hours. Cookies did not turn out well.
They showed up to the potluck. Everybody else bought storm
bait. Yeah, right.
And then who's the odd person out?
(44:18):
The person that did home that did home made so interesting.
Do. You, yeah.
Instead of this image of what you should be doing, at least
take some of the pressure and expectation off.
And if you are, oh, let's go to the workplace for a little bit.
(44:38):
Yes, that's because. If you are a leader with any
sort of influence, if you are not expecting that other people
will show up as you do, you needto make that explicit.
So for example, who always checktheir e-mail on vacation, right?
PTO. She's checking, she's firing
(45:01):
things back. What happens?
Everyone else in the organization assumed, regardless
of what policy says yes, regardless of what is legal.
I guess we check e-mail around here.
So if you lead people, you have the title.
Yeah. You've got to make explicit that
I may do this. I do not intend for you to do
(45:23):
this right. I bring homemade cookies because
I love that. I do not expect that of you to
mitigate the shame, guilt, pressure, right?
We do not always understand how we silence other people.
Often times us silencing them isthem feeling like they have to
fit into the mold or the model that we have laid out.
(45:47):
So. We've got to dispel that by
saying I'm going to do this. It doesn't mean you need to do
it. And also, let me be curious
about what makes it easiest for you to show up, for you to bring
your gifts, skills, thoughts, insights for you to be free,
right? For you to exhale because I care
(46:10):
about you and want to support you.
That's the conversation I would want to have personally,
professionally, so that we all get to be who we are in the
fullness and richness of who we are.
I just, there's so many gems. It's like, it's like every
sentence, every, everything you say is a gem.
(46:36):
I have AI have a question for you.
Yeah, we've, we've spoken a lot about tuning in to, you know,
the, the, the silence within or,or doing inner work.
Are there ways in which one can feel unexpressed voice in the
body? Have I gone to have I then I go
(47:00):
to deep or no? No, I don't think you went too
deep at all. I think it goes back to the
reality that our bodies know. Yeah.
Right. Whether it's the body keeps the
score or otherwise, our bodies know.
My own experience, I was in a workplace that was not healthy
for me. The eczema came out, the hive
started, the hair started falling out.
(47:23):
And I'm not, I know I'm not the only one.
So when you talk about unexpressed voice, our bodies so
often know, oh this isn't right or intuition or our Spidey sense
that is not logical or concrete data-driven enough, right?
We are denying wisdom that is there and our bodies try to tell
(47:46):
us louder through reactions. So absolutely.
And I'd argue it goes back to listening to our bodies.
What do you need? What do you need right now?
Oh, you know what? My actually right now, if I'm
listening, my left shoulder is tense right right there.
(48:07):
OK, so up towards the ears. Yeah, well, this one's fine.
I'm down. Don't over rotate.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, OK, so left shoulder up and
down. Yes.
How often do we pause to do a body scan or check in to say
(48:28):
what do we need? What's off?
Is it just a deep breath? Because I've been doing this all
day without realizing it. And that's what I love about
your book of every chapter has the breathing exercises, has
higher vibrations. Let's slow down with that
structure and the guidance to check in and nourish, because
(48:53):
the world around us is not telling us to slow down, check
in and nourish. It is.
It is not. It is so often requiring us to
just be on that treadmill, the treadmill, and just keep going
without pausing, without taking a moment for a breath, for just
(49:17):
a second of stillness, a pause, reflection, a break.
The there's this both spoken andunspoken insistence that we just
keep going, doing, producing, working, on and on and on.
We do it at work and then we come home.
(49:37):
We do it at home, then we go to the PTA.
We do the PTA, then we go to church.
We do it at church because we'rerunning all the committees,
right? And let me tell you, and yes,
yes, by we, I'm, I am talking about people who identify as
women. Yes, the reality.
Yes, it is often the expectation.
(49:57):
And this is, I mean literally anexample in my book, which is,
look, other people are going to use their voice to try to
influence how you spend your time, your energy, your life.
Yes, right, that that's just thereality of it.
And one might argue that they should.
Please tell me more about that because.
(50:19):
Look, Lisa, I think you're so brilliant.
You would be perfect for headingup this committee.
And you know what? Lisa does have the skills.
She is brilliant. She would head up that committee
better than anybody else. But just because she can does
not mean that she should or thatshe wants to.
(50:41):
So if the reality is that everyone's clamoring for your
time and pulling, it is your job, your voice is to listen to
your body, listen to your own priorities, your own needs to
say, is that something that I want to give life to right now?
I'm laughing not at what you said, but because Latrice, who
(51:06):
is behind the scenes producing. Thank you so much, Latrice.
Latrice Torres, CEO of Leader Keys.
Big up Latrice, but Latrice is behind the scenes producing.
I'm laughing because she's also at one point been my coach.
I'm like, wait, did they plan? Maybe, Lisa, maybe this is just
(51:27):
an intervention. Y'all yeah right.
I'm like, wait, is it my episodeor am I being?
I'm not sure what is happening right now.
You've been punked. I have been punked because the
number of times she said, she said you have to learn to say
no. And I've, I've gotten there.
I've gotten a lot better. Now to your point earlier about
(51:49):
our point about flexing and people adjusting and the spiky
reactions. And so I've gotten a lot of
spiky reactions because, to yourpoint, people have been
benefiting from your inability to choose voice and exercise
agency and say no. Yes.
Right. Yeah, they know.
It's so important. Who's not benefiting?
(52:12):
Mm hmm. Yeah, when you're.
Tired, yes, you're exhausted, you're worn out.
You and let us also add resentful.
Yes, let's just be real sticky kitchen that that's we're
resentful because then we get mad because we said yes to
something we didn't want to say yes.
Well, we said yes. Yes.
(52:34):
They didn't say yes, we said yes, but now we're mad at them.
So here's nuance. We're going to go nuance.
Let's bring in the nuance. Because, correct, we did not say
no. And at the same time, did we
feel like we could say no? Did we?
Feel empowered and safe. Did we feel?
(52:54):
And safe. And so this to me is why
everything is interwoven, why itis me unlearning my silence to
say no more often if it is not aligned with my values and who I
want to be. It is also everybody else's
responsibility and opportunity to make it easier for us to say
(53:15):
no right, if I can. Say that again, can.
Yeah, just say that one again. That was brilliant.
It is everyone's opportunity andresponsibility to make it easier
for us to say no, make it easierfor us to show up as we are, to
actually hold, identify and holdthe boundaries because we can
(53:35):
say no is a complete sentence. We can quote Pooja Lakshman and
say boundaries are not Co created.
We could say that till we're blue in the face but it is too
costly for us to say no. The calculus changes.
What do I mean by making it easier for Lisa to say no?
Because remember this is an intervention.
Latrice and I are on you. It is Lisa.
(53:55):
I think you'd be fantastic for heading up the committee.
At the same time, I know you've got a lot of plates that you're
spinning and a lot of people whowant your time and energy.
So as much as we would love to have you, only say yes if it is
genuinely what you want to be doing right now.
(54:16):
If not, doors always open, come back another time.
We'd love to have you and reallywant to be sure it's a good yes.
By the way, I don't want you to give me an answer right now
because I don't want this to feel like I'm pressuring you.
I'll, I'll ping you in a week ifI haven't heard from you, but
sleep on it, right? How much different is that?
(54:37):
How much different a reality would we live in that we can
actually Co create for one another?
Because as much as I want Lisa to head up the committee, I
actually want Lisa to be whole even more.
Yeah, and happy and comfortable,you know, and, and you, you
ideally you want to preserve, hopefully it is a good
(54:58):
relationship. Assume, let's assume make this
something good relationship, right?
And so you want to preserve thatpositivity and that harmony and
that unity and that synergy, especially when there is a real
or perceived power imbalance. It it that whole kind of that
(55:22):
those kinds of interactions can be difficult because how are you
going to, you know, especially let's say your entry level, are
you going to you, you want to use voice and tell your CEO no
right like out. So.
Again, Nuance contacts, etcetera, but but if you're, if
(55:45):
you, you see whether it is your CEO or other senior leaders in
the company reacting in a positive way to someone who says
no or set or because a no can be, it can be a flat no, it can
also be a not right now or not quite in this way, or let's
(56:05):
negotiate and talk it out some more.
Totally right. But if as the entry level
employee, you can see that hey, it's OK to at least to have a
discussion, I don't actually need to feel forced to do this,
then that means that those leaders and that company have
created a culture of safety where people can can unlearn
(56:33):
their silence. Sometimes on the job, I'll learn
their silence, reclaim their voice, and use their agency.
Yes. And here's the value proposition
for leadership for the business.Did you not hire that person
because of the value they could add, because of the skills that
they bring, because of the lenses to the world that they
(56:56):
offer? And what are you going to do to
do squash that talent? Silence it.
You have AI to do rope things for you.
You don't need to pay. You do need to pay for people to
think critically and to push back.
And creatively yes, and. Creatively, yes.
And so many leaders squash that,which is why chapter 5 of my
(57:20):
book is how we silence others. You do not have to intend to
silence people to do it. Yes, that was so important.
Listen, when I tell you that book is church, when I read that
chapter, because many of us and it's, it's, it's not saying it's
not real, right, or or is not saying it's not real or true.
(57:43):
But it is easy to think of the times when you have been
silenced. It is easy and even more
comfortable in some ways. But to think that you might have
been the person that silenced somebody else and made you made
them feel as horrible others have made you feel.
Yeah. So that chapter, yes, yes, yes,
yes, yes, yes. And Chapter 9 is how to stop
(58:06):
silencing people. So we're not just going to hold
up the mirror and make you feel uncomfortable.
We don't want you to look away. Yeah, right.
So here's here's some methodology.
Here's what you can do. Here's what you can do.
I also want to highlight becausewe were talking about the entry
level person and the CEO, right?There's a power imbalance.
(58:28):
So two things. One is if you are the higher
power person by hierarchy or tenure or whatever it is, social
capital, lead in the way that you want the world to look, make
it easier for other people than it was for you.
None of this queen bee syndrome business.
(58:51):
And 2nd, I've heard this phrase from multiple people, and I cite
it in the book Power is Invisible to those who have it.
When when I say that when I hearit, I'm often thinking about the
board, about the leadership team, you know, about my
manager, that they're not thinking about the power that
(59:12):
they have. They're so focused on the power
that they don't have. But what about me?
What power do I have to influence someone how someone
else experiences the world? Maybe not for generations,
maybe, but but just maybe today.And maybe today is enough that I
(59:34):
actually took time to be presentwith them.
That I actually started the meeting by saying, let's all
stretch it out. Exhale.
It's a. Crazy time in the world and
someone else felt seen. What power do we have?
And to make sure that we don't give it up because we're so
focused on the power we don't have.
(59:55):
It's not condemnation, it's an invitation.
Oh well, listen, on that note. On that, on that note, we are
unfortunately going to bring this episode to a close.
But that was beautiful. I love that.
You know, it is not condemnation, it is an
(01:00:15):
invitation. And that invitation holds so
much power by you framing it that way, there's so much power
in that. An invitation to check in with
yourself. Invitation to examine how you
interact with others, how othersmight be feeling around you and
(01:00:38):
making any changes, both for andreally, all the changes are for
your own good. Like if you happy.
Yes. If you happy, the likelihood is
other people around you are going to be happier, you know,
And they, I, I love it. They'll adjust.
Right. They will adjust.
They will adjust. So before, before we sign off,
(01:01:02):
what are you up to? What are you doing next?
Tell, tell, tell the people where they can find you.
All of the good stuff. Yeah, people can find me.
Latrice is on it, Elaine. Yes.
Most active on LinkedIn? You know, Unlearning silence is
about a year out. Where am I?
I am trying to get it embedded in high potential leadership
(01:01:25):
development programs because those of us who are unlearning
silence, we need managers and leaders who also stop silencing
us. And so if you want to lead and
be able to fully unleash the talent on your team, you've got
to solve for silence. So that's where I'm focused.
You know, I think it's going to take three to five years, but
(01:01:47):
always open to an invitation if anyone can partner on that wants
to partner on it. But mostly an invitation to keep
living and creating the world's that we want to live in,
including one where there's space to exhale.
Oh, bless you. Thank you.
That is absolutely beautiful. And so today's affirmation, I, I
(01:02:08):
include affirmation every episode.
I think, I hope that you will like this one.
Today's affirmation, we're goingto say it three times, is I am
choosing to use my voice in powerful, productive ways.
I am choosing to use my voice inpowerful productive.
(01:02:29):
Ways. I am choosing to use my voice in
powerful, productive ways, right?
So thank you once again, Elaine.This was absolutely, this was
everything I expected it to be and a whole bunch more.
So thank you so much. Thanks for being my guest and
(01:02:52):
for being here with me. And to everybody that is
listening and watching, thank you for joining me today on
Space to Exhale the podcast TuneIn every Tuesday live on
LinkedIn to catch the vibes. And if you can't make the live
show, subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and YouTube to catch
the replay. If you want to dive deeper into
(01:03:13):
what we discussed today, be sureto get a copy of my book Space
Direct Sale, which is available at Barnes and Noble, Amazon,
Wiley Publishing, and wherever books are sold.
I'm just warning y'all this is along outro today because I have
things going on and y'all need to hear about them so bear with
me. Every minute.
(01:03:34):
Listen it is it is 2 weeks almost to the day before pub
day. So this right I.
Know I know until everybody elsegets to read the gems that I've
already gotten to read. Yay, go pre-order now.
Pre-order now. Thank you.
So to stay in touch, follow me on LinkedIn and check out my
website space to exhalebook.com for updates about all the soft
(01:03:56):
life shenanigans. And since, as Elaine and I just
said, two episodes from now on June 17, it will be my
publication day. So mark your calendars for two
very special events. The first is I'll be hosting a
virtual launch celebration on Pub Day, Tuesday, June 17th at
our usual time, our usual space to exhale time of noon Eastern.
(01:04:21):
And then on Saturday, June 21, I'll be hosting a fabulous high
vibrational in person book launch celebration which is
sponsored by POC Stock, The Great Exhale Leader, Keys
Consulting and Sharon's Anti Racism newsletter.
Tickets are on sale now and seats are limited, so make sure
you get yours and you can go to well, Latrice has it online
(01:04:45):
there, right, Launch event tickets.
It's the great exhale.com. And you can also go to space to
exhalebook.com to secure your seat.
I am looking forward to sharing space with you next week when I
have a very special guest for you, my sister Sharon Hurley
Hall, author of I'm Tired of Racism.
(01:05:06):
So once again, thank you. Goodbye for now.
I'll see you next week. And remember, you are worthy of
rest, you are worthy of love, and you are worthy of having
time and space to exhale. Thank you.
Goodbye, and I'll see you next week.
None. Take a breath.
I am Lisa Hurley, activist, author and community builder.
(00:53):
Welcome to Space to Exhale, the podcast weekly inspiration for
self love and soft living. Music folks and welcome to Space
(01:36):
to Exhale the podcast, a safe, serene sanctuary where we focus
on high vibrations, affirmations, soft living and
self-care. I am your host Lisa Hurley.
I'm a three time Anthem award-winning activist, A Reiki
master and the author of Space to Exhale, a handbook.
(01:59):
Handbook for curating a soft, centered, serene life.
I'm here to help us all do just that.
Relax, take a breath, say no to hustle culture, and yes to a
life of ease. My hope and a dream is for us
all to curate lives that we don't feel we need a break from.
(02:23):
And today, I am super excited tointroduce to you my guest and my
friend, Elaine Lynn Herring. Elaine, welcome to the show.
Oh thank you for having me. Also that intro was exactly what
I needed today. I was literally doing the
stretches with the video page. Good, good, good.
(02:47):
Yeah. No, it's like you have to set
the tone. You have to set the tone for,
for what we're going to do today.
Now before I mean you, you know,you've listened to a few of
these so you know what's about to happen next.
And you probably don't want it to happen, but I'm going to
introduce you properly. I like to let the people know,
let the people know who they're listening to and why you, why
(03:10):
you are here specifically. And so folks listen to this and
just get ready because when I, when I read this bio, y'all
ain't ready. That's all I'm saying.
I was reading and I was like, Ohmy gosh.
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.
You know what? I have curated a life that I
don't need a break from. There you go.
(03:31):
How's that and it shows in your bio.
I love that. So Elaine Lynn Herring helps
people build communication, collaboration, and conflict
management skills. She has worked on 6 continents,
taught at Harvard, Dartmouth, Tufts, UC Berkeley, and UCLA,
and is a former lecturer on law at Harvard Law School.
(03:55):
That's just paragraph one, folks.
I'm absolutely going to be the peanut gallery.
Here. Oh, it's amazing.
It's amazing. I love it.
She has worked with coal miners,microfinance organizers, mental
health professionals and senior government leadership.
(04:15):
Her clients include name brands such as American Express,
Google, Nike, Novartis, Pixar, and the Red Cross.
She has been recognized as one of the top management thinkers
to watch by Thinkers 50 and is the USA TODAY best selling
author of Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash
(04:39):
Talent and Live More Fully. Unlearning Silence was named the
best personal development human behavior book of 2024 by Porch
Light. So once again, Elaine, welcome.
Thank you for having me, allowing me to be in this space
with beautiful brilliant wise you.
(05:02):
Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.
I, you know, we, it's, it's, I love LinkedIn because moments
like this can happen. There's a lot of foolishness on
LinkedIn. Both know there's a lot of
foolishness, but moments like this and connections like this
make all of that worth it because, you know, you and I
(05:22):
just connected and vibed and have been supporting each other
just quietly behind the scenes. And I love everything about it,
everything. So thank you for really being in
community with me. Absolutely right back at you.
Thank you. Thank you.
As usual. You folks know before we get
(05:42):
into the meat of the episode, and it is going to be, it's
going to be juicy. It's going to be a juicy one.
We're going to take a moment to exhale together.
So we're going to get grounded and take a few deep breaths in
whatever way works for you. So if you want to close your
eyes, do that. If you are seated, get a bit
(06:02):
more comfortable. If you're lying down, you know,
sort of on your couch, just like, yeah, wiggle into the
couch a little bit into those cushions and get really
comfortable. Close your eyes and now inhale
and exhale, and one more inhale and a deep exhale, and once
(06:35):
again inhale and exhale. OK, so come back into the room.
And as you're coming back in, I want to read to you a brief
excerpt from Elaine's USA TODAY best selling book on learning
(06:57):
silence. And it is.
Silence is, by definition, an absence.
Absence of voice, absence of opinion, absence of life.
It starts so subtly that we don't even notice it.
Often silence is the path of least resistance.
(07:18):
Too often, it seems the only path.
Our habits around silence are soreflexive we forget we have a
choice. When you've learned to live with
silence, you forget the possibility of what could be.
Well, just I, I love, I love your words.
(07:39):
I I had meant to have my copy ofUnlearning Silence here because
it is just it's just like post its now it's like that beautiful
hombre blue and that a sea of yellow post its so it has been
redesigned. Love it you.
Love it. It is a beautiful book, you
(07:59):
know, obviously on the outside, but the the words and the themes
I absolutely love. So my first question for you is,
can you share a moment in your life when you realized that your
silence was not protecting you anymore, but it was costing you?
Yeah, you know, you want to havethese.
(08:21):
I, I, in the movie version of mylife, have these big aha moments
where the music crescendos and there's tension and then there's
the de Numa and, you know, the clouds break and the
everything's clear. My real life doesn't work like
that. How does your real life work?
Because your real life is sounding kind of like my real
(08:43):
life. So tell me a little more.
I thought about this as I was coming back in the house this
morning after dropping off my kid.
I had a water bottle, I had a snack box, I had toys, I had
like the grocery bag, I had trash from the car.
And I thought, this is not the version of us that other people
see, right? Someone else said to me the
(09:03):
other day and sort of a catch upcall tell me everything.
I think they were probably expecting something juicy like
some big contract or client engagement or keynote stage and
those are all parts of my life. But my reply I think caught them
off guard and I said you want toknow everything.
(09:26):
My kitchen is sticky right now and I don't know why.
Listen, my kitchen is sticky. That actually in its own way
needs to be AT shirt because that is the reality of life.
That is the reality of life. The kitchen is sticky.
You know, if you have pets, you know, there's fur everywhere.
(09:47):
There's Legos that are wait, lying in wait for you to step on
them, right? The male.
The male is piling up. Whatever.
Yeah. Yes, yes, and and in terms of
space to exhale, you know what? My kitchen is sticky and can I
let it be? Which oftentimes the answer is
no. Yeah, Right, right, right.
(10:08):
Fair enough. Fair enough.
Because I want to get to that exhale and that beautiful space
in the I just have baseline, just a baseline.
But if there's only so much of me to go around, then I've got
to choose. Yeah, and.
Maybe I can live with the sticky.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes you do have to live with the sticky for
(10:29):
a moment. And sometimes you realize that
there, there is in some ways there is a bit of beauty in
those sticky moments. There is some beauty, right?
There is. I remember, obviously, you know,
my niece is very much an adult right now, but I still, you know
how we adults are. We remember them when they were
(10:49):
like teeny tiny. She's probably cringing as I'm
saying this, but I remember those moments, you know, her
tiny little feet and, you know, just those little hugs.
And, yeah, sometimes there's like a little element of juice
box in the car, right? But that's OK.
That is OK, you know? So, yeah, it is.
It is absolutely OK. So are there moments then when
(11:12):
in regular life you have to makea choice between, OK, am I going
to choose voice or choose silence, like just in regular
everyday life? I mean, clearly at work, yeah,
definitely, yeah. But in everyday life, with your
family, with your friends, your wider social circle, how do you
(11:34):
navigate those moments? All the time.
Let me actually answer your yourfirst question which is the the
moment. Go over, listen this
conversation. I know we want it to go.
I know as I was thinking about the sticky I got distracted.
I got to this question of, you know, the silence served me for
a very long time, particularly at work but also at home.
(11:55):
I was the peacemaker because I didn't seem to have any needs,
goals, hopes, dreams of my own that other people needed to
solve for. I was easy to work with.
I was a good team player becauseI'm just here to serve.
Now what happens? None of your own needs are met
and you also become a shell of the person you could be because
(12:17):
you're busy living someone else's life.
And it was a wait your turn Elaine situation in in the
workplace that I was part of at the time.
And I looked around thinking, well, if I'm waiting my turn,
I'm going to be waiting a very long time because the person
(12:39):
ahead of me isn't isn't moving. Right.
And so do I really have to play by this supposed norm?
Also, I think we've gotten it wrong.
All the calls to just speak up, be louder, clearer, more
courageous, more confident, Thatall seems wrong off because it
(13:02):
is not just about speaking up. But how do we navigate this
thing called silence? That I've learned from the way I
was raised, the family I was part of, right?
Youngest daughter, immigrant family from Taiwan to the United
States, grew up in the church, right?
Maybe that explains everything. Listen, you are, listen, you are
preaching actually to a lot of people right now, right.
(13:24):
And there's certain, there's certain norms across people of
the diaspora, of different diasporas, but there are, but
there are commonalities, right? Yes, I understand what you just
said. So now I will quote from one of
my favorite books forthcoming soon, bio author Lisa Hurley, A
Good Life. This is page 17, chapter 1 for
(13:46):
those of you taking notes or want to post it when you're
copied. On the time.
A good life must be grounded in authenticity.
The life of our dreams must be based in who we are in reality,
not who someone else thinks we should be.
I love that. Who are we?
Do we know who we are? Are we chasing a life that other
(14:11):
people want for us, of us, because it benefits them,
Because they don't have to change if we can play that role?
But do we get to be who we are? And by voice, I mean not just
the words you say, but how you get to live.
Yeah, yeah. Voice.
I I loved that you in, in, in your book, you used the phrase,
(14:35):
you know, choosing voice and choosing voice and using voice.
And I had never actually heard it phrase that way.
You know, we do. We do love the coining of a new
phrase. Yes, yes, we do.
Right. As as as word nerds and authors
and so on. And so I loved your framing of
choosing voices, but I definitely got the I, I was able
(14:58):
to pick up what you were puttingdown in terms of it's not
literally your not only literally your voice, your
speaking voice. It is your energy, your
presence, how you choose to movethrough the world.
And so something you kind of alluded to just now is the
silence that is imposed on us, right?
(15:20):
And that that's part of what we really want to dig into in this
episode. Silence is that is imposed on US
versus silence and stillness that we cultivate within
ourselves. And, you know, so often we're so
used to being silenced, we don'teven know the difference between
the two. Like, is it them?
Is it us? Is it from the world and
(15:42):
society? Is this something that I've
selected for myself? Like how can people even begin
to tell the difference between the two?
Yeah. And even as you're saying that,
I noticed my body tensing up. Yeah.
So for anyone might do, yeah. So for anyone who needs a
breath, yeah, let's go back to the to the beautiful face that
(16:03):
you have curated to really exhale.
Because part of the work of unlearning silence is realizing
that it's there, and that can beincredibly disorienting.
OK, say that one. Say that one more time for the
people, because that was that was a little that was a little
(16:25):
bit of church right there. Say it one more time.
Part of the work of unlearning silence is realizing,
recognizing that it is there. What parts of myself might I
have hidden? Might I have dampened down?
Might I have put on the back burner?
Is it because of me, as you're saying?
(16:46):
Is it because of someone else? I don't know.
It's all woven up in a ball of wax.
Wound up in a ball of wax, right?
They at work, they said you're too much.
Did I start to believe that? They said I was too loud, too
overbearing, too too quiet. Fill in the blank.
(17:07):
You hear these narratives and then we're told you need to take
the feedback. And it's hard not to internalize
it, particularly if you're getting some of the similar
messages at home or in your personal relationships.
Yes, yes. Is it them?
Is it me? I don't know.
By the way, I'm a grown ass woman.
And how can I not know who I am?Yeah, Now that's an
(17:30):
uncomfortable place. A lot of us don't.
A lot of us don't. A lot of us don't, and there's
not space to do that because my life, whether at work or at
home, is set up around this person that I am currently
showing up as. And if I evolve, change,
stretch, learn, then the people around me also need to shift.
(17:55):
But are they willing to? If we're going to stay in
relationship. Yes, yes, and.
There's some relationships that are really hard to extract from.
Oh my. Gosh.
And so it's a shift for everyone.
So is it you? Is it me?
Well, there's what is my work? Who am I?
(18:16):
I'd start with the internal work.
Listening to this podcast, sitting in a meeting at the
dinner table. The internal work is what do I
think? Do I agree with that?
Do I disagree with that? Rather than just ingesting
right, rather than just nodding and accepting?
Right. And what do I processing and
(18:36):
consciously deciding? Yes, critical thinking.
And that's why I go back to choice all the time.
You ask me, do I choose voice? Do I choose silence throughout
life? Absolutely.
Because in every moment I'm thinking, do I, do I agree with
this? Do I want to do this?
And more and more listening, is this how I want to be spending
(18:57):
my time, energy band my life. The things that we do, the
things that we choose or accept that add it all up.
That's your life. But we forget that we have a
choice because we're going on tothe next thing or the people say
you got to do this or this is what you should aspire to.
(19:18):
When is there work for that? What do I really want?
Who am I? What do I believe?
What? And so that quiet internal work
of what do I think, what do I need raises your awareness that
there is a you in there even when the world does not want to
recognize that there is an autonomous, beautiful, unique
you with gifts and skills different than anyone else.
(19:41):
They just want you to be play this role.
Yeah, because because the role that you are playing serves
them. And this is, you know, and we
love, we we love our people, right?
This is whether in personal or unprofessional relationships,
you'll keep it high level, right?
But it is in both personal and professional relationships.
(20:03):
But when we start digging into OK, who are we beyond the roles
that either have been assigned to us, sometimes that we have
chosen and and sometimes we choose a role.
But then we don't realize, hang on a second, I've outgrown this
role. I've outgrown it.
(20:24):
I have not sat still long enough.
And that that's why I wanted to discuss.
OK, there's the silence within and the silence without.
When you get into the silence within, that's when you get to
choose whether or not you even want to interact with the
silence without. You get to choose how to use
your. Voice.
Powerfully, and in a way that really serves you, as opposed to
(20:47):
just showing up on autopilot. Yes.
So the silence within goes back to your work on authenticity.
Do I know who I am? Do I know what I believe?
Do I know what I stand for? You could say it's values.
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
Do I know what I stand for and therefore my actions, behaviors,
(21:09):
life choices should flow from that?
It also is a grounding of centering and anchoring for all
of the noise, all of the wind, all of the waves around us.
Do you know who you are and do you stand by who you are?
And if so, you can sleep at night, whatever other people are
(21:30):
saying. Yes, sleep soundly and well on
that satin pillow. I'm still working on the satin
pillow. Listen, it's it's so necessary
and it's so good. I mean, OK, like I said, we're
in charge of this conversation. So we're going to do a little
segue into how good the satin orare for hair and skin and all of
(21:56):
that good stuff. Like if you're a side sleeper
and you are sleeping on a cottonpillow, you are doing yourself a
grave disservice. That is just APSA from us to
you. I feel like you're giving away
your secrets and I need to do a before and after, right?
I'm a I'm currently a cotton pillow cover sleeper.
I know sometimes I know I have much to learn.
(22:25):
We need to give our skin space. Exhale.
OK. So I love this moment because
we'll talk a year from now and Iwill glow more because I have
given my. You're already glowing.
You're already glowing though It's not real life, but that we
(22:45):
can grow, right? We are not stuck where we are
now. We can learn to sleep on satin
pillows and know what is good for our skin.
We can learn to choose, even if we do not believe that we can
choose or have historically had a choice.
We can grow and the people around us will need to figure it
(23:08):
out. Yeah, they will adjust.
They will absolutely adjust. There is, I think it's an
affirmation in in the book. I, I hope it is because I'm
about to quote it, but it's definitely something I said, but
it basically says flex, they will adjust.
And I that sorry, go on you, yougo ahead.
(23:30):
I'm doing aligning with with unlearning silence.
Totally. I'm going to do the asterisk
there just so we know and are emotionally, mentally,
relationally prepared. They will adjust.
Not without cost, not without sometimes people kicking and
screaming, true. Not without maybe some sharp
(23:50):
words or some silence from them.But that's the silence without.
That is the silence without. That does not have to have an
influence on the silence within if you know what your values
are, but I. Love.
I love that asterisk. And that is very important
because when you are grounded inyour values and when you are,
(24:13):
when you have done more of that inner work to know who you are,
to just get to know yourself better and get to love yourself
better, then yeah, some of thesepeople are going to be a bit mad
upset. There will be some spiky
adjustment periods. But that's OK.
(24:33):
Yes, it also makes sense why they might be mad if their life
has been easier based on the exploitation of your talents.
You are taking away from them something that they benefited
from. So logically it makes sense.
So do not be caught off guard ifand when that spikiness happens.
(24:56):
Do not take it as evidence that you are doing something wrong.
No, it is, it is, it is physics,right?
Let me, let me just say very I'm, I'm, I'm a linguist.
So let me just say, I'm about toenter into territory, territory
I know nothing about. So she's going though.
She's going, but. Basically it is to to each and
every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.
(25:18):
So when you flex, when you flex,when I say when you flex, they
will adjust. That is what happens.
If you push, they're going to push back.
Yes. Now, sometimes the push can turn
into a hug. It can be.
Oh, I didn't realize that. I didn't know that bothered you.
Thank you for you choosing voiceand using voice and speaking up
(25:41):
and letting me know. Yeah, baby, I'm sorry.
It could be that. It could be that.
We hope. We hope.
It's that conversation. If they're calling you baby,
that's especially. If they're calling you baby,
let's hope that is the conversation.
There are times, let's say at work, for example, if you you,
you might flex, flex, flex in whatever way you choose.
(26:01):
Flex might be speaking up in a meeting, standing up for
somebody that is being bullied, for example.
There are multiple scenarios. Choosing to redirect a
conversation to yourself when someone has spoken over you.
That's something you mentioned alot in your book, right?
And so you flex, in other words,you defend yourself, you choose
(26:22):
to speak up, you redirect and they are going to adjust.
Now the adjustment you might be adjusted upon with the company,
right? I'm just saying that that can
happen and has happened. So like you said, be prepared
when you, when you do that flex,be prepared.
Know that in terms of the laws of physics, you cannot push
(26:43):
without expecting an equal response.
Of some kind, Yes. Of some kind, yeah.
And that also goes to choice of is this in alignment with my
values and how I want to live mylife?
If I have one life to live, how do I want to live it?
(27:04):
I don't want to be staying awakeat night on my satin pillow
wondering what if yes. Exactly.
Yep, exactly. I do want to say, though, that
unlearning silence does not meansaying Everything Everywhere,
all the time to everyone, right?The world is far too noisy.
Not everyone deserves your wisdom, your insight.
(27:27):
And so part of that choice is where am I going to spend the
spoons? Where am I going to spend that
energy? Where am I going to drop my
gems? That's why chapter 3 of the book
is when silence makes sense rather than you've got to speak
up you in this way at this time or you are a bad person person.
No, it comes from a place of agency.
Is it silence that I'm choosing that can be strategic playing
(27:51):
the long game? Or is it silence that is chosen
for me because there are no other choices, It's too costly
and that that that agency to choose for yourself.
So is it the silence within? Is it silence without?
Is it, is it a silence you're choosing that serves you and
what you need today and tomorrowand in the days to come?
(28:12):
Or is it one that is imposed upon you because this is just
the narrow roll and the box thatyou are told to fit in?
I I love that I listen the, the,the honestly, the episode could
end now because that was so brilliant.
I'm like, how do you even followfollow that up?
I mean, that was absolutely amazing.
(28:33):
I actually, I chose, I normally read an excerpt also from my
book, yes, in every episode. And I wanted to, oh, you're
we're so like aligned, you know,and I actually chose an excerpt.
It's very, very short, but I think it plays into ties into
what you just spoke about. There are times when silence
(28:56):
makes sense. We do want to unlearn it, but
there are times when we need it.We're not saying to, as you
said, we're not saying to just speak all the time.
We're not saying that everybody and everything has to be loud.
We're not saying anything of that nature.
And so there are people like myself, like I'm definitely an
introvert, hardcore, 1000%. And so silence is a part of my
(29:23):
personality and my way of being in the world, even even as a
podcaster, even as somebody who partially speaks for a living.
So, so to speak, my default and my natural personality is a
quiet 1. And so for people like myself
who are not quote UN quote naturally quiet, that that
(29:48):
tension between OK, is this, is this my silence?
Is this my personality? Is it OK to be quiet?
Because you have, you have to both learn.
You have to learn and unlearn. Yes.
Learn and unlearn. And that's why I loved when I
got to that chapter in your book, I was like, yes, you know,
(30:09):
I'm like, because without that chapter about when silence makes
sense, the book, obviously, you know, you wrote it, but the book
would have been incomplete because it needed that balance.
Yes. It's also what differentiates my
book from anything else out on the market that I think for
those of us who carry subordinate identities based on
race, gender, class, ethnicity, whatever it is, we know that
(30:33):
silence sometimes is about self-care, is about survival.
You can't. You need the both and because
that is the reality of it. But taking it back to agency, I
can't wait to hear what you've chosen though to read in your
book. Thank you.
Thank you so well, let's get right into it because you know,
(30:54):
you and I will continue talking after.
But let me let me just read thisexcerpt from Chapter 3.
And we've been talking about authenticity.
And so this is an excerpt titledBe Yourself of All the Lessons
I've Learned from Mama Bear, who, by the way, is sitting
right next to me, but. Hi, Mama Bear.
(31:15):
Hi Mama Bear. Of all the lessons I've learned
from Mama Bear, this might be the most important one.
In a world that insists that we be as strident and extroverted
as possible, she demonstrates the power of quietness.
She fully embraces her introversion.
She's not a boisterous, belligerent, broad strokes
(31:36):
person. She's serene, soft spoken and
stately Oasis vibes. She's never the loudest person
in a group, but rest assured shewill make the biggest impression
instead of sucking all the air out of her room.
She elevates the energy she doesnot chase.
She attracts good people, good experiences, good fortune.
(32:01):
She stands tall, radiating dignity and positive vibes and
folks are naturally drawn to her.
She does not do drama. She vibrates at a level where
drama never even enters her ambit.
She embodies the energy of peace.
Her stillness is one of her strengths.
She refuses to be swayed by anyone who anyone else thinks.
(32:26):
Let me, let me reread that because I messed up.
It's a, it's a light. Light bloopers.
Light bloopers, people. Her stillness is one of her
strengths. She refuses to be swayed by
anyone else, by who anyone else thinks she should be.
She shows up unapologetically asherself, quiet or not.
(32:46):
She definitely has main character energy.
By modelling the beauty of beingcalm and quiet, she gave me
permission to embrace my introversion and lean into
pursuits that align with that trait.
Lesson, do you be true to yourself.
You don't have to be loud to be a leader.
(33:07):
And so I chose that because because of your chapter 3.
So the two chapter threes are talking to each other and
saying, hey, there's a nuance here.
Yes, there is a nuance. And so I, I, I just, I really
do. I'm such a fan of your book.
(33:28):
And there are, and there are actually very few books that
I've read. Like I said, I wish I had
remembered to bring it over herebecause it literally just is
posted after posted after postedby every other page.
I'm like, yes, yes, Oh my gosh. But the two chapters are
speaking to each other because both of us embrace the art and
(33:49):
existence of nuance. Well, yes, we need to unlearn
silence, but we're not. But we're not saying just be
loud all the time in every context.
We're not saying that every person necessarily has to be
extroverted. We're saying get to know
yourself, you're aware of every context and choose voice
(34:14):
strategically and in a way that is grounded in self love and to
silence strategically, Yes, in away that is grounded in self
love. And that's what I love about how
our books interplay with each other.
You know, I see, I see. I was reading it and I was
seeing, I saw so many parallels.But yes, clearly, clearly I'm a
(34:37):
fan. Thank you.
You're welcome. And you cannot love yourself or
we talk about self-care. You cannot care for yourself or
love yourself if you do not knowyourself.
Yes, yes. And how do you know yourself if
you have silenced yourself, put your own needs, goals, hopes,
(34:58):
dreams, concerns on the back burner for someone else?
Or you're in an environment where the people around you
silence you? I mean unlearning silence.
And the subtitle is Speak Your mind Unleashed talent.
Because there is some work that is not ours to do.
Can you, can you tell us more about that for the people who
(35:19):
have not yet read your book, It's available everywhere.
Purchase. Purchase.
OK, moving on. So there is how do I silence
myself right all the time, especially for me as a mother,
right? I my, my son is now I'm going to
reveal all the secrets of thingsthat parents are not supposed to
(35:42):
do, but that I'm doing. That's OK.
Listen, the the kitchen is sticky, right?
We're we're good We're we're, we're right.
We're vibing now we're vibing. We've.
Already missed any illusion thatour lives look like they do on
social media? Listen, let me take, let me take
this screen down. Y'all would run OK?
I'm just saying. I hear you.
(36:02):
Let me move the camera to 2cm tothe right.
A little bit. Yeah, exactly.
He has nightmares. He has nightmares.
What makes him feel safe to snuggle with Mama.
Oh. I love that.
OK, but when he snuggles, he then falls asleep in his deep
piece and then he waps his arm over on you, who does not get
(36:24):
sleep on their cotton pillow. Yes.
So you're on cotton and you're being, you're being punched by
your baby, right? There's many, many layers.
To this it's a trooper. It's a trooper.
Exactly. Am I putting his needs in front
of my own in that moment? Yes.
(36:46):
Am I wanting to show up as the mother that I am?
I mean, silence is so invasive and so subtle that it is really
hard at times to know, is this what I'm choosing?
Is this my voice? Is it not?
But The thing is, what you have chosen in the past or chose
yesterday or last night does nothave to be what you choose today
or tomorrow. And taking the pressure off that
(37:10):
choice makes me who I am versus I am learning, growing, I'm
experimenting with my voice, I'mfiguring it out.
I'm making the best choice that I can based on the data that I
have today. There's that.
Then there is how does the worldor how the people that I work
with or around me silence me? Well, I'd argue that there's
(37:33):
this expectation in the world atlarge that Mother should be self
sacrificial. Always present baking homemade
cookies for the school fundraiser with a smile on your
face. If we play into that, it can
erase the uniqueness of who we are in the reality of our sticky
(37:57):
kitchens. Right.
And poor sleep. Yes, yes, yes.
So so how how do you so for for people who many of us choose
self-imposed silence in uncomfortable situations, You
know, I, I will admit I'm often a fan of the path of least
(38:21):
resistance. I do I, I have it's, you know,
two sides. I have a fighter side and then I
have like, I can't be bothered side.
I I can't do this right now sideright.
But how do you do the work of really deciding that when you
know, like I like in APTA situation or something similar
(38:42):
roof, right and all of it and you come in with your Kroger's
cookies. Listen, let's just listen.
We're going to talk reality. Now.
You come in with your Kroger's cookies in the in the bag.
Yes, of course. In the in the the clam case,
right, you haven't even repackaged.
(39:03):
You have not repackaged. And then I meant the judgment of
the. Judgment.
From the plastic free folks. From the plastic free folks and
you feel like you're in Game of Thrones and people are saying
shame, shame, shame, yes and butbut people don't realize, wait,
this is actually all this mom could do.
Correct. This is all on this given day.
(39:26):
This is this is what she could do because you don't know what
else she has going on. It's a miracle.
The kid is is bathed, dressed, clean and presentable.
All their supplies are there, right?
All they don't listen. A bunch of little miracles had
to go into her showing up there with the Kroger bag and the and
(39:47):
the cupcakes that you're judgingher for.
You know my favorite part of that though, and it reminds me
of the passage you read about Mama Bear, is that as we do that
with our Kroger's cookies in theplastic, it allows other people
to do it too. That we actually create new
(40:10):
norms by how we show up and whatwe deem acceptable.
And that part that you said of no one else knows, right?
The the reason I hang on to agency of when you choose to use
your voice and when you choose to stay silent is because no one
else knows what you are carrying, what demons you are
(40:33):
fighting, what miracles it took for you to just be here.
Yeah, exactly. Never mind the cookies, yeah.
Never mind the cookies. Never mind the cookies.
I mean, even even for this show,it's, it's, it's, it's
everything, right? You and I are calling each other
on the phone. You know, it's just listen,
(40:54):
people, we're, this is reality, OK?
This part that you're seeing lovely and, and, and and equally
authentic, equally authentic in its own way.
There is also the behind the scenes.
Do you have the right link? Did it you know is it the all
all this stuff yes right and just translate that to
(41:15):
everybody's life. There is a behind the scenes, a
behind the screen right for everybody's life.
And I wish more people took thatinto consideration when having
the audacity to show up with that, with that kind of, you
know, the Kroger's judgment. Like, no, no, just enjoy the
(41:36):
cookies. They're.
So is the Kroger's judgment really coming from them, or is
it coming from me? Because if the judgment is
coming from me, I can do something about that.
You mean you mean is it? Like are are you judging
yourself on protecting that ontothem?
Because they might not be judging you at all.
Correct. This is spotlight effect in
(41:59):
action, right? I'm thinking more about my
Kroger's cookies than anyone else.
Everyone else is like, great, wegot food.
Or what about my cookies? Or you know what?
I wouldn't bring cookies. I signed up for napkins.
Listen, let me just tell you, the napkins and soda and and
plastic cutlery, we need them too.
(42:22):
We need them too, right we. Need them too.
What expectations I, I'm first one to raise my hand guilty of
this, right? What expectations do I have of
myself of what my life should look like?
And therefore I'm telling myselfI'm not measuring up because of
the expectations I had for my for myself.
Now, I may have internalized them from other people, from the
(42:44):
big screen, from the small screen, but if my narrative is I
showed up, I'm here for my kid, I even brought cookies, right?
That's a win. And you know what?
Side eye, plastic free homemade baked cookies.
That's on you. If that's how you want to live,
you do you. Let me do me that I can control.
(43:09):
That gives me some space to exhale because my voice is going
to be doing what I can. And today, that's Kroger's
cookies. Yeah, I love that.
I love that that at the top of the show you made sure to and
and in the middle that you made sure to reframe that the voice
is a concept as opposed to a biological part of the body.
(43:36):
You see what I'm saying? Yes, yes, we have voices and we
use them, but it really is you're speaking at a conceptual
level in terms of agency. Voice is how you move through
the world. Yes, Oh my gosh, I love.
That voice is how you move through the world.
And I'm I I got to follow this cookie conversation up because
you've given us license to go wherever we want.
My favorite. Yeah.
(43:57):
My neighbor spent time making cookies from scratch.
Like, asked me for an easy kid accessible recipes so they can
have bonding time with their kids.
Took them four hours. Cookies did not turn out well.
They showed up to the potluck. Everybody else bought storm
bait. Yeah, right.
And then who's the odd person out?
(44:18):
The person that did home that did home made so interesting.
Do. You, yeah.
Instead of this image of what you should be doing, at least
take some of the pressure and expectation off.
And if you are, oh, let's go to the workplace for a little bit.
(44:38):
Yes, that's because. If you are a leader with any
sort of influence, if you are not expecting that other people
will show up as you do, you needto make that explicit.
So for example, who always checktheir e-mail on vacation, right?
PTO. She's checking, she's firing
(45:01):
things back. What happens?
Everyone else in the organization assumed, regardless
of what policy says yes, regardless of what is legal.
I guess we check e-mail around here.
So if you lead people, you have the title.
Yeah. You've got to make explicit that
I may do this. I do not intend for you to do
(45:23):
this right. I bring homemade cookies because
I love that. I do not expect that of you to
mitigate the shame, guilt, pressure, right?
We do not always understand how we silence other people.
Often times us silencing them isthem feeling like they have to
fit into the mold or the model that we have laid out.
(45:47):
So. We've got to dispel that by
saying I'm going to do this. It doesn't mean you need to do
it. And also, let me be curious
about what makes it easiest for you to show up, for you to bring
your gifts, skills, thoughts, insights for you to be free,
right? For you to exhale because I care
(46:10):
about you and want to support you.
That's the conversation I would want to have personally,
professionally, so that we all get to be who we are in the
fullness and richness of who we are.
I just, there's so many gems. It's like, it's like every
sentence, every, everything you say is a gem.
(46:36):
I have AI have a question for you.
Yeah, we've, we've spoken a lot about tuning in to, you know,
the, the, the silence within or,or doing inner work.
Are there ways in which one can feel unexpressed voice in the
body? Have I gone to have I then I go
(47:00):
to deep or no? No, I don't think you went too
deep at all. I think it goes back to the
reality that our bodies know. Yeah.
Right. Whether it's the body keeps the
score or otherwise, our bodies know.
My own experience, I was in a workplace that was not healthy
for me. The eczema came out, the hive
started, the hair started falling out.
(47:23):
And I'm not, I know I'm not the only one.
So when you talk about unexpressed voice, our bodies so
often know, oh this isn't right or intuition or our Spidey sense
that is not logical or concrete data-driven enough, right?
We are denying wisdom that is there and our bodies try to tell
(47:46):
us louder through reactions. So absolutely.
And I'd argue it goes back to listening to our bodies.
What do you need? What do you need right now?
Oh, you know what? My actually right now, if I'm
listening, my left shoulder is tense right right there.
(48:07):
OK, so up towards the ears. Yeah, well, this one's fine.
I'm down. Don't over rotate.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, OK, so left shoulder up and
down. Yes.
How often do we pause to do a body scan or check in to say
(48:28):
what do we need? What's off?
Is it just a deep breath? Because I've been doing this all
day without realizing it. And that's what I love about
your book of every chapter has the breathing exercises, has
higher vibrations. Let's slow down with that
structure and the guidance to check in and nourish, because
(48:53):
the world around us is not telling us to slow down, check
in and nourish. It is.
It is not. It is so often requiring us to
just be on that treadmill, the treadmill, and just keep going
without pausing, without taking a moment for a breath, for just
(49:17):
a second of stillness, a pause, reflection, a break.
The there's this both spoken andunspoken insistence that we just
keep going, doing, producing, working, on and on and on.
We do it at work and then we come home.
(49:37):
We do it at home, then we go to the PTA.
We do the PTA, then we go to church.
We do it at church because we'rerunning all the committees,
right? And let me tell you, and yes,
yes, by we, I'm, I am talking about people who identify as
women. Yes, the reality.
Yes, it is often the expectation.
(49:57):
And this is, I mean literally anexample in my book, which is,
look, other people are going to use their voice to try to
influence how you spend your time, your energy, your life.
Yes, right, that that's just thereality of it.
And one might argue that they should.
Please tell me more about that because.
(50:19):
Look, Lisa, I think you're so brilliant.
You would be perfect for headingup this committee.
And you know what? Lisa does have the skills.
She is brilliant. She would head up that committee
better than anybody else. But just because she can does
not mean that she should or thatshe wants to.
(50:41):
So if the reality is that everyone's clamoring for your
time and pulling, it is your job, your voice is to listen to
your body, listen to your own priorities, your own needs to
say, is that something that I want to give life to right now?
I'm laughing not at what you said, but because Latrice, who
(51:06):
is behind the scenes producing. Thank you so much, Latrice.
Latrice Torres, CEO of Leader Keys.
Big up Latrice, but Latrice is behind the scenes producing.
I'm laughing because she's also at one point been my coach.
I'm like, wait, did they plan? Maybe, Lisa, maybe this is just
(51:27):
an intervention. Y'all yeah right.
I'm like, wait, is it my episodeor am I being?
I'm not sure what is happening right now.
You've been punked. I have been punked because the
number of times she said, she said you have to learn to say
no. And I've, I've gotten there.
I've gotten a lot better. Now to your point earlier about
(51:49):
our point about flexing and people adjusting and the spiky
reactions. And so I've gotten a lot of
spiky reactions because, to yourpoint, people have been
benefiting from your inability to choose voice and exercise
agency and say no. Yes.
Right. Yeah, they know.
It's so important. Who's not benefiting?
(52:12):
Mm hmm. Yeah, when you're.
Tired, yes, you're exhausted, you're worn out.
You and let us also add resentful.
Yes, let's just be real sticky kitchen that that's we're
resentful because then we get mad because we said yes to
something we didn't want to say yes.
Well, we said yes. Yes.
(52:34):
They didn't say yes, we said yes, but now we're mad at them.
So here's nuance. We're going to go nuance.
Let's bring in the nuance. Because, correct, we did not say
no. And at the same time, did we
feel like we could say no? Did we?
Feel empowered and safe. Did we feel?
(52:54):
And safe. And so this to me is why
everything is interwoven, why itis me unlearning my silence to
say no more often if it is not aligned with my values and who I
want to be. It is also everybody else's
responsibility and opportunity to make it easier for us to say
(53:15):
no right, if I can. Say that again, can.
Yeah, just say that one again. That was brilliant.
It is everyone's opportunity andresponsibility to make it easier
for us to say no, make it easierfor us to show up as we are, to
actually hold, identify and holdthe boundaries because we can
(53:35):
say no is a complete sentence. We can quote Pooja Lakshman and
say boundaries are not Co created.
We could say that till we're blue in the face but it is too
costly for us to say no. The calculus changes.
What do I mean by making it easier for Lisa to say no?
Because remember this is an intervention.
Latrice and I are on you. It is Lisa.
(53:55):
I think you'd be fantastic for heading up the committee.
At the same time, I know you've got a lot of plates that you're
spinning and a lot of people whowant your time and energy.
So as much as we would love to have you, only say yes if it is
genuinely what you want to be doing right now.
(54:16):
If not, doors always open, come back another time.
We'd love to have you and reallywant to be sure it's a good yes.
By the way, I don't want you to give me an answer right now
because I don't want this to feel like I'm pressuring you.
I'll, I'll ping you in a week ifI haven't heard from you, but
sleep on it, right? How much different is that?
(54:37):
How much different a reality would we live in that we can
actually Co create for one another?
Because as much as I want Lisa to head up the committee, I
actually want Lisa to be whole even more.
Yeah, and happy and comfortable,you know, and, and you, you
ideally you want to preserve, hopefully it is a good
(54:58):
relationship. Assume, let's assume make this
something good relationship, right?
And so you want to preserve thatpositivity and that harmony and
that unity and that synergy, especially when there is a real
or perceived power imbalance. It it that whole kind of that
(55:22):
those kinds of interactions can be difficult because how are you
going to, you know, especially let's say your entry level, are
you going to you, you want to use voice and tell your CEO no
right like out. So.
Again, Nuance contacts, etcetera, but but if you're, if
(55:45):
you, you see whether it is your CEO or other senior leaders in
the company reacting in a positive way to someone who says
no or set or because a no can be, it can be a flat no, it can
also be a not right now or not quite in this way, or let's
(56:05):
negotiate and talk it out some more.
Totally right. But if as the entry level
employee, you can see that hey, it's OK to at least to have a
discussion, I don't actually need to feel forced to do this,
then that means that those leaders and that company have
created a culture of safety where people can can unlearn
(56:33):
their silence. Sometimes on the job, I'll learn
their silence, reclaim their voice, and use their agency.
Yes. And here's the value proposition
for leadership for the business.Did you not hire that person
because of the value they could add, because of the skills that
they bring, because of the lenses to the world that they
(56:56):
offer? And what are you going to do to
do squash that talent? Silence it.
You have AI to do rope things for you.
You don't need to pay. You do need to pay for people to
think critically and to push back.
And creatively yes, and. Creatively, yes.
And so many leaders squash that,which is why chapter 5 of my
(57:20):
book is how we silence others. You do not have to intend to
silence people to do it. Yes, that was so important.
Listen, when I tell you that book is church, when I read that
chapter, because many of us and it's, it's, it's not saying it's
not real, right, or or is not saying it's not real or true.
(57:43):
But it is easy to think of the times when you have been
silenced. It is easy and even more
comfortable in some ways. But to think that you might have
been the person that silenced somebody else and made you made
them feel as horrible others have made you feel.
Yeah. So that chapter, yes, yes, yes,
yes, yes, yes. And Chapter 9 is how to stop
(58:06):
silencing people. So we're not just going to hold
up the mirror and make you feel uncomfortable.
We don't want you to look away. Yeah, right.
So here's here's some methodology.
Here's what you can do. Here's what you can do.
I also want to highlight becausewe were talking about the entry
level person and the CEO, right?There's a power imbalance.
(58:28):
So two things. One is if you are the higher
power person by hierarchy or tenure or whatever it is, social
capital, lead in the way that you want the world to look, make
it easier for other people than it was for you.
None of this queen bee syndrome business.
(58:51):
And 2nd, I've heard this phrase from multiple people, and I cite
it in the book Power is Invisible to those who have it.
When when I say that when I hearit, I'm often thinking about the
board, about the leadership team, you know, about my
manager, that they're not thinking about the power that
(59:12):
they have. They're so focused on the power
that they don't have. But what about me?
What power do I have to influence someone how someone
else experiences the world? Maybe not for generations,
maybe, but but just maybe today.And maybe today is enough that I
(59:34):
actually took time to be presentwith them.
That I actually started the meeting by saying, let's all
stretch it out. Exhale.
It's a. Crazy time in the world and
someone else felt seen. What power do we have?
And to make sure that we don't give it up because we're so
focused on the power we don't have.
(59:55):
It's not condemnation, it's an invitation.
Oh well, listen, on that note. On that, on that note, we are
unfortunately going to bring this episode to a close.
But that was beautiful. I love that.
You know, it is not condemnation, it is an
(01:00:15):
invitation. And that invitation holds so
much power by you framing it that way, there's so much power
in that. An invitation to check in with
yourself. Invitation to examine how you
interact with others, how othersmight be feeling around you and
(01:00:38):
making any changes, both for andreally, all the changes are for
your own good. Like if you happy.
Yes. If you happy, the likelihood is
other people around you are going to be happier, you know,
And they, I, I love it. They'll adjust.
Right. They will adjust.
They will adjust. So before, before we sign off,
(01:01:02):
what are you up to? What are you doing next?
Tell, tell, tell the people where they can find you.
All of the good stuff. Yeah, people can find me.
Latrice is on it, Elaine. Yes.
Most active on LinkedIn? You know, Unlearning silence is
about a year out. Where am I?
I am trying to get it embedded in high potential leadership
(01:01:25):
development programs because those of us who are unlearning
silence, we need managers and leaders who also stop silencing
us. And so if you want to lead and
be able to fully unleash the talent on your team, you've got
to solve for silence. So that's where I'm focused.
You know, I think it's going to take three to five years, but
(01:01:47):
always open to an invitation if anyone can partner on that wants
to partner on it. But mostly an invitation to keep
living and creating the world's that we want to live in,
including one where there's space to exhale.
Oh, bless you. Thank you.
That is absolutely beautiful. And so today's affirmation, I, I
(01:02:08):
include affirmation every episode.
I think, I hope that you will like this one.
Today's affirmation, we're goingto say it three times, is I am
choosing to use my voice in powerful, productive ways.
I am choosing to use my voice inpowerful productive.
(01:02:29):
Ways. I am choosing to use my voice in
powerful, productive ways, right?
So thank you once again, Elaine.This was absolutely, this was
everything I expected it to be and a whole bunch more.
So thank you so much. Thanks for being my guest and
(01:02:52):
for being here with me. And to everybody that is
listening and watching, thank you for joining me today on
Space to Exhale the podcast TuneIn every Tuesday live on
LinkedIn to catch the vibes. And if you can't make the live
show, subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and YouTube to catch
the replay. If you want to dive deeper into
(01:03:13):
what we discussed today, be sureto get a copy of my book Space
Direct Sale, which is available at Barnes and Noble, Amazon,
Wiley Publishing, and wherever books are sold.
I'm just warning y'all this is along outro today because I have
things going on and y'all need to hear about them so bear with
me. Every minute.
(01:03:34):
Listen it is it is 2 weeks almost to the day before pub
day. So this right I.
Know I know until everybody elsegets to read the gems that I've
already gotten to read. Yay, go pre-order now.
Pre-order now. Thank you.
So to stay in touch, follow me on LinkedIn and check out my
website space to exhalebook.com for updates about all the soft
(01:03:56):
life shenanigans. And since, as Elaine and I just
said, two episodes from now on June 17, it will be my
publication day. So mark your calendars for two
very special events. The first is I'll be hosting a
virtual launch celebration on Pub Day, Tuesday, June 17th at
our usual time, our usual space to exhale time of noon Eastern.
(01:04:21):
And then on Saturday, June 21, I'll be hosting a fabulous high
vibrational in person book launch celebration which is
sponsored by POC Stock, The Great Exhale Leader, Keys
Consulting and Sharon's Anti Racism newsletter.
Tickets are on sale now and seats are limited, so make sure
you get yours and you can go to well, Latrice has it online
(01:04:45):
there, right, Launch event tickets.
It's the great exhale.com. And you can also go to space to
exhalebook.com to secure your seat.
I am looking forward to sharing space with you next week when I
have a very special guest for you, my sister Sharon Hurley
Hall, author of I'm Tired of Racism.
(01:05:06):
So once again, thank you. Goodbye for now.
I'll see you next week. And remember, you are worthy of
rest, you are worthy of love, and you are worthy of having
time and space to exhale. Thank you.
Goodbye, and I'll see you next week.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!