August 12, 2025 • 63 mins
What does it take to rebuild trust in workplaces that were never designed with us in mind? In this illuminating episode of Space To Exhale: The Podcast, Lisa sits down with Minda Harts, bestselling author of "The Memo" and of her latest groundbreaking title "Talk To Me Nice: The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace."
Together, the two authors unpack the silent crisis of broken communication at work, and reveal a liberatory new framework for repairing connection, restoring respect, and reinstating psychological safety—especially for Black women and women of color navigating systems that weren’t built for our brilliance.
Rooted in both lived experience and powerful research, Minda’s Seven Trust Languages® framework offers a practical path toward equity, empathy, and more human leadership.
In this episode you’ll discover:
✅ What the “Seven Trust Languages” are, and how they mirror love languages
✅ How to identify your own trust language and honor others' trust languages in the workplace
✅ The real impact of broken trust on teams, morale, and mental health
✅ How inclusive leaders can build (and repair) trust, intentionally and equitably
✅ How organizations can incorporate the trust languages into their formal processes like performance reviews
Whether you’re a people leader, team member, or aspiring changemaker, this episode will equip you with the tools to work smarter—not harder—and reclaim your peace while you’re on the clock.
🎧 Tune in, take notes, and remember: You deserve to feel safe, seen, trusted and supported at work.
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👸🏽Guest: Minda Harts, bestselling author of The Memo and Talk To Me Nice: The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace
👸🏽Host & Executive Producer: Lisa Hurley, Author, Space To Exhale and Founder, The Great Exhale
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:32):
Take a breath. Welcome to Space to Exhale, the
podcast weekly inspiration for self love and soft living.
I am your host Lisa Hurley. I'm a three time Anthem Award
(00:56):
winner, Reiki master, and community builder, and I'm the
author of the book Space to Exhale.
Through healing modalities like breath work, affirmations, and
(01:16):
meditations, I'll guide you on alife changing journey to help
you know yourself, love yourself, be yourself, and
create much needed space to exhale.
(01:41):
Hello folks, and welcome to Space to Exhale the podcast, a
safe, serene sanctuary where we focus on high vibrations,
affirmations, soft living, and self-care.
I'm your host, Lisa Hurley. I'm a three time Anthem
award-winning activist, A Reiki master, and the author of Space
to Exhale, a handbook for curating a soft centered, serene
(02:05):
life. I'm here to help us all do just
that. Relax, take a breath, say no to
hustle culture, and yes to a life of ease.
My hope and dream is for us all to curate lives that we don't
feel we need a break from. Today I am super excited to
(02:26):
introduce to you my guest Minda Hearts and let me just read to
you her bio. Actually, you know, I'll add her
to the stage while while I read her bio Welcome Minda.
I'm just gonna let people know who you are right?
I mean, I'm. Awesome.
Most people know, but just in case they don't, so Minda Hearts
(02:48):
is a best selling author, workplace consultant, and sought
after keynote speaker who's revolutionizing how
organizations build trust. Through her groundbreaking 7
Trust Languages framework, she helps leaders and teams create
cultures where trust becomes their greatest competitive
advantage. As the author of The memo Right
(03:12):
Within You Are More Than Magic, and her latest book, Talk to Me
Nice, The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace, Minda
has empowered thousands to buildstronger workplace relationships
and navigate professional challenges with confidence.
Her impact spans boardrooms and conference stages worldwide,
(03:32):
with companies like Nike, Google, Best Buy, and Zoom
calling on her to drive meaningful change through trust
building strategies. She's been recognized by
LinkedIn as the number one top voice in the workplace and by
Business Insider as one of the top 100 people transforming
business. In addition to her speaking and
(03:55):
consulting work, Minda is shaping future leaders as an NYU
assistant professor and founder of The Memo LLC.
When organizations want to transform their communication
through trust, they call Minda Hearts.
Round of applause, Round of applause, round of applause.
Welcome, Linda. Thank you, Lisa.
(04:16):
I appreciate you and congratulations on space to
exhale. Congratulations.
Thank you so much and congratulations on Talk TO Me.
Nice. Like it's such a major moment.
I mean, this is I, I don't know,like book number 45 or so #4
right? Yeah.
I mean, you, you have been doingit for a while and you know,
(04:38):
thank you for staying consistent.
You know, you, you gave us the memo and so many other books and
you just keep delivering what weneed.
So thank you for that and for being here for the for the
culture and for black and brown people in the workplace.
Appreciate you. So before we get started, those
(04:59):
of you who have been listening, you know that before we get
started with any episode, we ground ourselves with some
breath work and an affirmation. Those of you who are new, we
ground ourselves first with breath work and an affirmation.
So close your eyes, start slowing your breath down, relax
(05:22):
your shoulders, relax your jaw, relax your forehead a bit.
You can probably feel some tension there and relax your
eyebrows. And we're going to do 3 deep
breaths. And so inhale through your nose
and exhale through your mouth and one more inhale and exhale.
(05:51):
Last deep breath, inhale and exhale.
OK, so now that we're a bit moregrounded, as you know, Minda's
new book is Talk to Me Nice. And I always include an
affirmation to ground us for every show.
And so today's affirmation, unsurprisingly, right as I am
(06:15):
committed to being trustworthy and building trust in every
interaction. So keep that in your mind as you
go through, we go through this episode and this experience
together. And so Minda, tell us, tell the
listeners what led you to develop the seven trust
(06:36):
languages. And I see, I see it has a lovely
registration symbol after it, which I love to see.
So tell us what led you to develop this framework.
Yeah, well, again, thank you, Lisa for having me and thank you
for grounding us. I, I needed that.
It's been a, a, a bit of a morning.
So I thank you for that grounding activity.
(06:58):
You know, it's interesting because the work that I have
been doing over the last severalyears had a, a focus on black
and brown women, women of color in the workplace.
And when I decided to write my 4th book, I called it my
crossover album, you know, because I wanted to expand the
table of it. But when I really got to the
(07:18):
core of it, what I've been doingall this time is trust building
work. I just didn't call it that.
And so I thought, you know, there's so much going on in the
workplace, in and outside the workplace.
And the one thing that we all understand is when trust is
present, we know that feeling. And when trust is not present,
we know that feeling. Trust is a global language.
(07:40):
Doesn't matter if you're a womanor a man or a a child, we all
know that feeling of having trust and not having trust.
And so I felt like, you know, let's ground the conversation in
respect and trust because maybe that will help us understand why
we weren't able to solve some ofthese other issues before
because we were trying to get people to walk in our shoes,
(08:01):
which they never will. But we do know what feeling low
trust environment feels like, right?
So for me, I wanted us to be able to get back to a space,
some of some foundational. I think we jumped in the deep
end of the pool, Lisa, and not everybody had the right floaties
and goggles and you know, all the things on.
(08:22):
So I'm like, OK, we got to get back to basics and back to
basics is trust. We can't get to an equitable
workplace if we don't trust eachother.
So, you know, it's kind of the chicken or the egg.
And and that's what I wanted to really dive into is the trust
aspect. OK, thank.
Thank you so much for that. And one of the things you do you
(08:43):
you do it in all of your books as part of your writing style
and you've done it in this book as well as you share anecdotes
from your life, from your career.
Also there there's also always like a running soundtrack
clearly are a music lover. So there's that as well.
But in terms of a story from your life or career, was there
one that led you, a specific onethat led you to say, OK, I I
(09:07):
need to do, I've been thinking about this book, but it needs to
happen right now. And This is why.
It's because you're going through it.
If you're going through it, maybe somebody else is.
Was there a story or an experience that led you there?
Yeah. You know, I, I also thought
about the five love languages who many of us know that in our
(09:27):
cultural lexicon. And I thought, well, if we have
love languages for our romantic and platonic life, what's the
language for work, right. And trust was that thing.
And I thought back to times in my career where I really
appreciated a manager or a colleague demonstrating trust.
I tell one story in the book. I have a manager.
(09:49):
We I call him Harold in the book.
And he told us that a layoff wascoming, a furlough was coming
six months before it happened, right?
And he was very transparent withus.
And I didn't realize how much I value transparency until it
presented itself, right. So he told us what probably
(10:10):
shouldn't have been said. He said the quiet part out loud.
He said, hey, in six months, some of you be here, some of you
won't be. And I don't know who that is
yet, but I want you to prepare for what's to come.
And I'll never forget how I feltthat day, Lisa sitting in that
staff meeting and him preparing us for what's to come, right?
And I felt so grateful to have that information because now I
(10:34):
can plot my next path instead ofsome of my other colleagues who
are on a different team. And their manager tells them
that morning, right? You don't have time to think.
And so he put us as human beingsfirst and employees 2nd.
And that built so much trust. Was he a perfect manager?
No, but in that moment, and as long as he was my manager, I
(10:55):
trusted him that he had my best interest in mind.
And I think I asked people to think about what's a, a manager
that you know, you would run through a brick wall for, right?
It's because you trusted them because they demonstrated that
day in and day out. And I just think that so many of
us have lost sight of what trustmeans and what it means to be
(11:17):
trustworthy in the workplace. Yes, yes.
Thanks for sharing that. That actually reminded me of
similar ish kind of of story really what had happened.
It was a lifetime ago and essentially I was I was hired.
It was supposed to be a full time role and I showed up on,
(11:37):
you know, the day of and they'relike, you know, psych.
It's not, it's not full time, you know, you're freelancer
etcetera, etcetera. OK, so that broke trust.
However, the person you know, towhom I reported directly, you
know, he had no idea that was going to happen.
But what he did was tell me at some point.
(11:58):
Look, I basically, I know that you they keep telling you it's
coming, it's coming, it's comingthe full time role.
It's not coming. It's it's it's not so it's
similar. So it's it's not going, it's not
going to happen. And so I want you to take time,
You know, you're great at what you do.
Take time, look for your next role and go out on, you know,
(12:20):
leave on your own terms. So it's, it's similar and that
really, like you said, when a boss, a manager, a leader takes
the time to see you and treat you as a human being first, as
opposed to a number, as opposed to a line item on a spreadsheet.
And it, you know, it makes everything, it makes the hugest
(12:41):
difference. And that that former boss and I
are like, we're like, we're, youknow, friends on Facebook,
whatever, you know, that kind ofthing.
So it, it has long lasting and far reaching consequences both
when trust is built and when clearly when it is broken as
well. Speaking of which, So what are
(13:03):
the signs especially for black women and women of colour, but
really, like you said, crossoveralums.
So it's for everybody, right? So what are the signs,
especially the signs that are easy to overlook, that trust has
been or is being eroded? Yeah, that's a great a great
question. And I think so many of us have
normalized these toxic behaviorsinside the workplace that we
(13:26):
don't even think about what trust is.
I mean again, we wanted in our romantic and platonic
relationships, why wouldn't we want it at a place that will
spend 90,000 of our 90,000 hoursof our lives?
Trust should be. That's most of our lives, to be
honest of our. Lives, yeah, I hate to say it, I
know somebody might have to takeanother exhale here in 90,000
(13:47):
hours, right? But but that is the truth that
it's like, okay, we got to get some trust ushered into this
space and some of the areas thatpeople I think don't think about
as often, they know when it's happening to them.
It feels uncomfortable. But these are erosions of trust.
Often, Lisa, think people think it's the grand acts, right?
The grand acts of betrayal, but it's actually the silent moments
(14:11):
that we never talk about, right?So yes, we might talk about the
layoffs and the reorganizations.Those are ways that trust is
eroded in the workplace, but also the micromanaging, right?
That's a big one. That's a big one, that is.
A big one, because it shows him behavior.
It shows him behavior. No matter what someone says, you
(14:34):
see the truth in their actions. Absolutely.
So micromanaging. You mentioned one where somebody
promises you something in the workplace, dangles that carrot
if you will, and then you never get the carrot right.
It's a mirage and so, oh, it's. Not carrot.
It's an invisible carrot. You're like, wait a second, just
(14:58):
one more year, one more quarter when we keep let's talk about it
in six months and next thing youknow, it's been 10 years and
you're like, wait a second, whathappened to that carrot?
You know, and, and those are those erosions of trust, even
down to a lot of us work, you know, hybrid or on virtual
screens. And it's sometimes people don't
have their camera on for variousreasons, right?
(15:19):
But somebody may see that I'm having a very important
conversation and because I don'tknow what you're doing over
there, I'm thinking that I can'ttrust you, right?
And so there's all these, it's less of a trust issue, but more
of an expectation gap, right? I expect something of you which
is trustworthy in my view. But because you don't know that,
the erosions keep taking place. And it was one of the reasons I
(15:41):
wrote this book, Lisa, because Ifelt like we just didn't have
the language to be able to articulate when certain things
have happened so that we can course correct.
But people can't show you what trust looks like if they don't
know what good looks like to you, right?
And so getting clear on what we need in the workplace is that
more transparency, is that more feedback.
(16:02):
People can't give you that if they don't know that's what you
need. Right, right, exactly.
And that that segues nicely into.
So we've kind of like laid the groundwork.
So explain to viewers outline the Seve trust languages you've
already compared it to. OK, the basis was the five love
(16:23):
languages, or the idea came fromthat we need trust languages for
the workplace. But what?
What are the seven trust languages and why are they so
fundamental to workplace relationships?
So it's funny when I get the opportunity to speak at a lot of
different companies and people have run my books.
And so they'll approach me over the years and say, oh, I don't
(16:45):
trust my manager or I don't trust my colleague or the big
one, I don't trust HR, right? So they'll always say that to
me. And the more I kept hearing
people tell me that, I thought, wait, what's underneath the
reason why, right? It's not that it's not just
trust, but there's something underneath it.
And the more I started to ask questions, I'm like, oh, what
you really need is clarity and honesty.
(17:07):
You need more transparency. Oh, what you really need is
intellectual security or psychological security.
Or you need. That safety and belonging, Oh,
what you really need is demonstration somebody modeling
the behavior in which they are doing what they say.
Oh, you really need feedback, meaningful and consistent
(17:29):
insight. Oh, you really need to be
acknowledged, right. See, you need to be seen for
your work. Oh, and now one of the next
languages, sensitivity. There's so many managers and
colleagues that need the language of sensitivity, right?
Just because a joke might be funny to me doesn't mean it's
going to land that way to somebody else in the room,
(17:51):
right? So what you really need is a
more empathetic leader or colleague.
And lastly, I heard people saying they need more follow
through, people keeping their word.
If you say you're going to do something, then let me know that
and if you can't do it anymore and tell me that too, that's
still following through. And so I found that no matter
(18:14):
what people were saying, it fellin one of these like 7 boxes of
what they needed. And I thought, OK, what would it
look like to ask for a little more clarity or a little more
honesty around your job description?
You've been you were hired for ajob and now you've been doing a
different job, but you don't trust your manager.
But have a conversation and findout what has changed, you know,
(18:35):
so again, understanding what I need in the workplace.
And the book does that through assessments, but then also the
people that we work with, maybe we're eroding trust
unintentionally and we don't even know it right.
So being able to show up becausetrust is a two way St.
Wow, that that is. I love that you put so much
(18:56):
thought into it. And I also love that you
included among all the others, all of the other trust
languages. I love that you included
sensitivity. That was actually a pleasant
surprise to me when I started delving into the book.
I was like, oh, this is not something with the others.
I'm like, OK, yes, transparency,security, demonstration,
(19:18):
feedback, acknowledgement, follow through.
Would not have expected sensitivity to show up there.
And I think you probably know why it sounds like one of the
quote UN quote other people callsoft skills, which I don't.
I don't believe that that is a real thing, that soft skills are
a real thing. I think soft skills are actually
hard. There are they're hard skills
(19:39):
and they're they're difficult for people to actually
implement. Sensitivity is so necessary.
I think it is a close cousin of empathy.
And so I love that that is is isincluded in the in the
framework. So actually hadn't intended to
go here, but what are your trust?
(20:00):
What? What are your trust languages?
Have you identified yours? Yes, yes, I, I have.
And it's been fun to find out what people, they had not
considered what theirs might be.And so there is a quiz inside
the book for people to figure that out.
But mine, I have three and one of them is transparency,
(20:21):
feedback and acknowledgement. So those things really build
trust with me. And you know, I want to say too
about transparency. I think there's a misconception
in the workplace, Lisa, that being transparent is telling
everybody everything, right? And that's not transparency.
Transparency is also saying thisis all the information I have.
(20:41):
And when I have more, I'll let you know.
Or if you have questions, then feel free to come and and ask
me, right? But I think that, you know, some
people feel, oh, we can't tell everybody everything.
Some things you just don't need to know.
But also telling people that is we're just having a space to
have that. That's being transparent.
That's going to calm my nervous system a little bit instead of
(21:03):
seeing the smoke coming out of the chimney and then everybody
pretending that the smoke is notcoming out of the chimney.
That that's a very, you know, the Emperor, the Emperor's
invisible clothes and whatever, like, no, there's nothing,
nothing is happening here. What are you even talking about?
Right? I definitely remember a
situation where, again, long, long story, but you know,
company I worked with was going through some issues as they do.
(21:25):
And one of my colleagues was kind of UPS with, you know, they
were upset that management had not shared certain details,
including some financial ones, right?
And while I understood my colleagues feelings, I, you
know, pull her aside. And he said, look, certainly
especially when you get to a certain level of management, you
(21:45):
actually have a fiduciary and legal duty to not reveal certain
information, right. And so sometimes the you know,
someone in senior management notsharing something, it's not
because they don't want to, it'sbecause they can't.
But to your point, had management, senior management
just said we cannot share. We, we, you know, we legally
(22:07):
cannot share this. But here's what's happening at a
high level that would have created, like you said, you
know, regulated everyone's nervous systems a little bit and
help them breathe a little easier, you know for sure.
Yeah. So a lot of this, the framework
and the, the, the work that you're, you've laid out for us
and provided us with in this book sounds like it has a
(22:30):
grounding in emotional intelligence.
Like I said, what what folks would call the soft skills,
which I truly, I believe this, like I said, the soft skills are
the hard skills. So what made you go basically
ground your work in an emotionalintelligence model versus which
(22:51):
is very a reciprocal, A reciprocal model, A model of
transparency and reciprocity, whereas most, a a lot of books
talk about transaction, you do this for me, I do this for you,
that, that sort of relationship.So what made you go like hard
180 in the other direction? Yeah, thank you for seeing that.
(23:13):
I, I went really hard that direction because I believe that
the future of work is understanding the human element.
We can't take that away, right? The human element is so
important in our connection, andI think that it's important for
us to again, remind each other that we're not robots, right?
That we do have feelings, we do have thoughts, and we all just
(23:34):
want to do the best work of our career.
But we can't do that when there's a lot of barriers,
right? So, but the other part of it is
we don't have the space to be able to talk about what those
barriers are. And so my hope is that through
the new book Talk to Me nice that people have the language to
be able to remove those barriersa for themselves, but then for
others, right? Because again, you know, trust
(23:56):
might be there at 10 AM and thensomebody does something or says
something unintentionally or intentionally and it's gone by
10:10, right? That happens all day long.
And we don't say anything. We don't do anything.
We just kind of side eye each other all day long and nobody
knows what the what the erosion was, right?
And So what would it look like if we talked about it in a way
(24:19):
that is respectful, right? How do we enhance trust instead
of eroding trust? And I feel like again, there's
trust isn't necessarily the issue at work.
It's we have a communication crisis.
We no longer know how to talk toeach other.
We don't consider the nuance in situations.
We create narratives that may ormay not be true based of our
interactions with somebody. And I'm like, OK, let's just
(24:43):
flip the table over and restart it with some respect, humanity
and dignity. Right.
And back to the basics, because honestly, when you have, like
you said, respect, honesty, trust those, those like basics,
the basics are the foundation ofthe house, right?
I, I did, I did a post the otherday about, you know, houses,
(25:05):
some kinds of houses in, in Barbados that are for various
reasons, they're not built on a solid foundation.
No house, house, organization, whatever you want to call it.
If the foundation is shaky, the rest of it is.
At some point it is going to to either literally topple or
(25:26):
you'll just, there'll always just be a sense of insecurity, a
lack of security, lack of psychological safety.
And all of that ties into a lackof trust and being able to relax
at work. And that probably sounds like an
oxymoron, like it's work. You're not supposed to be
relaxing. But I know you understand what I
mean. Yes, there's work to do.
(25:46):
So you go in and you do what needs to be done, but you do it
from a perspective where you're not in fight or flight.
Fight. What was it?
Fight, fright flees, freeze, fawn, right?
You're not in any of those states.
You can relax mentally and psychologically and show up as
your best self. Yeah.
And that's should be afforded toall of us, right?
(26:09):
Some people, you shouldn't have to be sitting in your, in your
favorite chair at home or in theoffice and wondering who's going
to attack you today and all of those things, Right.
And again, I think that if trustcan be broken, it can also be
rebuilt. But we need the language to be
able to demonstrate, you know, trust has to be a noun and a
(26:29):
verb, right? And I think sometimes in the
workplace, we just show up with our titles and we think, oh,
trust is automatically here and,and no, trust is built each and
every day. Trust is not a one time event.
It's a culture. It's a lifestyle.
I love that trust is a culture and a lifestyle.
So once somebody identifies their trust languages, let me
(26:52):
put them back up so everybody can see them again and again.
These seven trust languages are transparency, security,
demonstration, feedback, acknowledgement, sensitivity,
and follow through. So once somebody has identified
their trust language and startedto work with it, like how, how
do they then show up? It's like, OK, so you come in,
(27:13):
right? You somebody, right, all the
companies, right, hire Minda, right?
You come in and consult about the trust languages, you come
in, you do your, your course andyour, you know, you do your
work, right? And so how do you help people
then implement that? So after you leave, right, and
you've done the training the next day when you're not there
(27:35):
to guide them through, how do people implement, actually
implement on their own? Yeah.
So the lovely thing that I like about this book that's probably
a little bit different than my last books is I pretty much give
it play by play on how, let's say for example, sensitivity is
somebody's primary trust language, and then you might
find that you have a secondary or a tertiary trust language.
(27:58):
And so maybe sensitivity is an issue.
Maybe you work with someone who's always telling the joke
that nobody needs to hear between 8:00 and 5:00 or ever,
but they think they're the funnyperson in the office.
They're always saying the thing.But it's impacting you because a
lot of the jokes tend to be about, you know, your community
(28:19):
or whatever that is. And, you know, a good, a good
example of that in culture rightnow is that there's a lot of
backlash against Gen. Z, right, in terms of how they
show up. And so many people have so many
bad things to say about Gen. Z, right?
And this is where we need to build trust with various
generations. And So what would it look like
(28:42):
for us to be a little more culturally sensitive to how
they've been socialized, right? Certain ways in which they get
to use their voice that may havetaken US 20 years to ask for a
raise. And they're like, I've been here
for six months. What are we waiting on?
Right? They're asking.
They're moving in a different way.
Does it mean that it's wrong? Does it mean that it's right?
Does it mean, but they're not going to trust us from other
(29:04):
generations if we don't build relationships with them and try
to understand what they are. So instead of saying you guys
don't like to work or you don't understand workplace culture,
what would it look like to be sensitive and be a mentor or a
coach to say, yeah, I understandwhy you're asking for that, but
here, this is how things kind ofwork.
Let me show you the rules, right?
(29:25):
It feels better, it sounds better.
And that and I also give you step by step on how you
implement those things. I give sample scripts on OK, you
can't just walk up to your a person who doesn't know what a
trust language is and say, give me more.
But you can give examples. Root your conversations in fact,
right? Point to examples that are
tangible. Not that oh, I don't feel like
(29:47):
you like me. No, in last week's meeting you
said XY and Z and I just wanted to understand what you meant by
that, right? Because I understand you weren't
trying to erode trust. But this is how it came to me,
and I wanted to have a conversation about it.
We are all adults in the workplace, but it's not what we
say, but how we say it. And I think if we speak to each
other with humanity and dignity,even on those tough
(30:10):
conversations, we can still uphold somebody, our integrity
and somebody else's dignity well.
That that, that is, that is beautiful.
And I do love that you provide scripts because a lot of people,
I, you know, identify the what without saying, OK, but here's
(30:30):
the how, here's the how. And even even, let's say so
someone is following, has followed your script, but maybe
maybe they don't completely likeimplement it to the letter and
something goes awry. So when trust is broken, whether
it's between individuals, you know, individual colleagues or
(30:50):
you know an organization to its employee base, what is the first
step toward build toward repair and healing?
What, what, what first step should anyone take?
Maybe, maybe let's start with one, You know, one-on-one, one
colleague to another, a manager,manager, direct report
relationship. Yeah, I also want to acknowledge
(31:12):
that when trust is broken and the power dynamics are different
right from your manager, your manager might be the one causing
the problems or you know, HR you're having the issue there.
And so I also give scripts for when somebody doesn't show up
the way you want them to and howyou respond.
But what I will say is I think most people want to Createspace
(31:37):
for us to work well together. I think most people do, but the
issue is we don't all have the same tools for conflict
resolution. And So what I would first do is
identify what is it that you need to feel that trust is
present in the workplace. And once you identify what your
trust languages are, whatever the person that is causing kind
of the pain point, root the conversation in the fact.
(32:00):
So for example, let's say that Ifind that feedback is really
important to me, but I work for somebody who never gives me any
feedback. I've done like 10 projects.
I don't know if they've been done well or not.
Nothing's taking place and I don't necessarily have the kind
of relationship with my manager to to ask for it or I'm nervous
to ask for it, whatever the casemay be.
(32:21):
And I'm like, OK, how can he or how can they provide me feedback
if they don't know that that's what's needed for me, right?
And maybe I didn't even realize that.
So Long story short is I can instead of going to my manager
and saying you never give me, you never give me any feedback.
I don't know if I'm doing good. I don't know if I belong.
They're going to be on the defense, right?
(32:43):
What would it look like to say, OK, I just wanted to chat with
you because I just finished up this project and went really
well. I feel good about it.
But I wanted to know how you feel because the last three
projects I completed, you haven't given me any feedback.
Is that something we can partner?
I really value when you offer mefeedback on these projects
because then I know if I'm headed the right direction and I
(33:06):
want to keep getting better eachand every Sprint, that manager
is going to be like, oh, OK, yeah, I can do that, right?
And I think that's part of it. We create these narratives that
people don't want us to be successful, but half the time
they have 90,000 things they're doing.
They're not thinking about us and what just you heard.
Is true people listen, people are going through and before
(33:28):
before you and I, you know, start started the show
officially. We're chatting about this a bit
backstage is that there is so much happening in the world
right now, so much happening in the US and that is sort of
bleeding out into the rest of the world affecting affecting
everyone globally. And people have a lot going on.
They have a lot on their minds and there's just exponentially
(33:53):
more stress. I think a lot of us thought, OK,
you know, COVID happened and that's probably like the high
point of stress and chaos that the world is going to
experience. And then other things happened
and, and, and here we are. So also, and I don't know if
this ties into the sensitivity trust language, but just having
(34:13):
that awareness that maybe just maybe somebody's whatever they,
you might think they're going through has nothing to do with
you, right? Or, you know, they might just be
under a huge weight of stress, you know nothing about.
And so lead with some sensitivity, lead with some
empathy, ask a question, ask with, you know, lead with, hey,
(34:36):
are you OK? You know, depending on your
relationship, of course, you know, you see, you see in a
little, you know, not like your usual self.
Is everything OK? Just want to check in on you.
That is something that can help building to, to build
relationships and let people know, hey, I see you as a human
being and I care about you in that way.
And I, I think that's really, really important.
Yeah, thank you for highlightingthat, Lisa, Because, you know,
(34:58):
back to the sensitivity, you know, people will say, well,
does it take all that just get back to work, right.
We're seeing a lot of dialogue around CEOs just saying be happy
you have a job. And it's like, OK, two things
can be true at the same time. I can be grateful for the work
that I have, but I can also workeven more, be more productive
when trust is present. And the data shows that when
(35:20):
trust is present, we're 21% moreproductive.
There's 50% more retention, right?
50% less burnout. And so trust isn't just, oh, let
me wrap myself in, in a trust blanket and do a trust ball.
No, trust is good for business, you know?
And so I think that we have to understand that people will be
(35:42):
be more productive when they aren't fearful, right, or when
they can have conversations, butto be like, oh, just get back to
work, OK, return to office. I understand that maybe it's no
longer sustainable for everybodyto work from home anymore, but
let's talk about the why. Listen, we have all these
buildings and we're losing moneyevery single day.
We need everybody back. But let's talk about a plan that
(36:05):
you you now don't live in the same state.
Let's take, let's plan 8 months to get you transitioned back
into the state in which you can live.
Like there's so many ways that we can have better conversations
with each other that keep trust at the center.
And I just feel like so many leaders right now are playing in
the Wizard of Oz is the cowardlyLion.
(36:25):
And we don't need that type of, we don't need those type of
leaders right now. No, no, no, we don't.
And it's so this is this is sucha good topic.
And when I was, it's funny that you mentioned trust.
Trust falls when I was looking through initially to see I just
want to check in SpaceX say likehow many times do I mention the
(36:46):
word trust? I was just like, interested,
right? I met, you know, I mentioned a
few times when I came across oneparagraph that said Sanders that
said, well, how am I going to doa trust fall with somebody that
just stabbed me in the back, right?
And that's basically like the foundation of what you're
talking about. Like, you know, the, the, the,
(37:06):
you have to be able to trust people, trust their behavior,
and it can't be performative. And you also talked about the
link between trust, psychological safety and being
able to relax and rest at work. And so while we're here, I want
to read people who all my, my listeners, my stalwarts who join
(37:27):
every week know that I, I, I read a short excerpt from the
book every week. And so of course, you know, I'm
a big fan. I met him like, oh, I'm
mentioning Minda in my book, butnot, not just because I mean,
obviously I wanted to, but your work is relevant, right?
And so I do mention about, you know, the need to be able to
(37:50):
curate your career with wisdom. And I think that trust ties into
rest because that's how if you have trust, work does not have
to be constantly stressful and it doesn't have to be something
you mentioned burnout earlier. It doesn't have to be something
that you burnout from. So I'll read this excerpt and
(38:10):
then you know, we'll, we'll diveback into the conversation.
So this one is from chapter 8. It's called curate your career.
So how to curate your career? So this book is about making
choices. It's about curating your life so
that it operates to your benefitto you.
(38:32):
Sorry, I completely messed up because I'm a human being.
So I'm going to start again, right?
This book is about making choices.
It's about curating your life sothat it operates to your benefit
and frees you to enjoy greater ease.
The curation process is 1 of examination, interrogation,
selection and implementation. So you end up with an exhibit
(38:56):
your life that is pleasing to your spirit, supportive to your
mind, and healthy for your body.Because adulting is a scam and
capitalism is a hater. Our professions play an enormous
role in our existence on this earth, so much so that we can't
truly redesign our lives withoutconsidering what kind of career
we want and how to approach it so that we succeed in whatever
(39:18):
way we define success. There are entire books written
on this subject targeted specifically to Black women and
women of color. The Memo by Minder Hartz is an
excellent one. Hearts makes the indisputable
point that if a traditional career is what you truly want,
then you must play the game according to the rules that have
been established because patriarchy and white supremacy
(39:40):
aren't going anywhere anytime soon until changes are made at a
systemic level. It is what it is.
She's 100% right. For some of us, including me at
one point, that is the path we desire.
We enjoy the daily joust, the thrust and parry, the schemes
and strategies. We enjoy proving the naysayers
wrong and proving our cheerleaders right.
(40:01):
We want to ascend to the corporate ladder and eventually
sit pretty in the C-Suite, and that is perfectly OK.
We are allowed to want what we want.
We are allowed to seek success in whatever ways are meaningful
to us. We are also allowed to change
our minds about how we define success.
Space or exhale is about exactlythat, Pausing to reflect, taking
(40:23):
a breath and choosing a different path.
As the years have passed, by definition of success has
evolved. To paraphrase James Baldwin, I
do not dream of labour. For me, rest is the new success.
And so yes, yes, Minda people, people like what is what's the
(40:46):
tie again between rest and spaceto exhale And the trust
languages is because when, when you have that trust, when you
have that trust, you can relax and show up as your best self.
When you have that trust, you don't have to burn out.
And mentioned here about enjoying what I call the daily,
the daily joust. You know, and you mentioned this
(41:07):
a little bit earlier, you know, I'm wondering if somebody is
keeping behind your back, wondering what management is up
to all of those things. When you are in that state, you
are not in a state of trust and relaxation.
And no matter whether you think you are showing up as your best
self, I guarantee you that you are not.
I guarantee. Period.
(41:28):
Period. I mean, there's a statistic out
there, Lisa and you with the work you do, I'm sure you're
aware of this, but maybe this will be new for some of the
visit or from the listeners is over 40 million in America, 40
million people suffer from anxiety and depression.
I'm not saying that the workplace is the root cause of
that, but I guarantee if we havemore ease and spaces to exhale
(41:51):
inside the workplace, there'd beless people feeling that
anxiousness or those Sunday scary, Monday scary's right.
And so there we don't have to have toxic workplaces.
We can let's UN normalize that those toxic behaviors for
success. So thank you for that.
Thank you. Thank you.
Because space exhale is about anapproach not just for for for
(42:13):
work and for life. And so I see what you have
written as you know, you're, you're like, well, let's create
some space, exhale in our organizations, in our
relationships, in our, you know,with our colleagues and really
dive into, you know, the, the psychological safety of it all
because psychological safety is a form of rest.
(42:37):
And so actually Speaking of that, how have you, because you
know, you've been doing this work for a while.
I know, I know. And I know how books go.
It's like people, people see, oh, well, you know, Mina Mina's
published a book and think that it just happened.
Like you've probably been working on it, I would imagine
for years, if not months, if notyears, right.
And so how have you experienced rest as you were, you know, read
(43:01):
it as you were writing this book, continuing your career,
continuing your consulting work.How did you experience, you
know, the seven trust languages and rest in psychological safety
in your own career? Yeah, thank you for that.
Well, I pitched the book two years ago.
And so, Lisa, yes, trust is always important.
(43:23):
You should never go out of style.
But I didn't know we'd be in thethe workplace, the climate that
we would be in and and just the climate in general.
And so trust inside, outside theworkplace is so important.
And what I would say is, as writing this book, I was more
aware of myself. I was able to put a mirror up to
(43:45):
myself and say, am I demonstrating trustworthy
behaviors? Right, Because it's easy to say
somebody else isn't doing the right things or very roding.
It's easy to say you, you, you, you, you, But what about me?
How can I show up as a better? So I'm writing these languages,
right? And I'm like, oh, crap, I can be
more transparent. I can provide more, you know,
(44:07):
like when somebody tells me I prime example, somebody, a
friend of mine was telling me a story that happened to them and
I was like, oh, it's OK, you know, don't get been out of
shape about it. It's fine, it's fine and they're
like, well, how would you feel? I said I wouldn't care.
I wouldn't move on with my day. And it stopped me in my tracks
because I needed the language ofsensitivity they were share they
were sharing with me being vulnerable about something that
(44:30):
bothered them. And how often do we dismiss
somebody's feelings, right? Because it's not bothering me.
So why, why are you tripping, right?
And then those are those momentsfor erosion.
And again, it's unintentionally.We think we're saying the right
thing sometimes. And I have to go back and
apologize to them and say, you know what?
I'm sorry that I wasn't as sensitive to how you feel.
(44:50):
Yes, it it didn't bother me in the same way, but you are a
different person. And let's talk about ways that
maybe we can demonstrate, and I have to continuously demonstrate
the language of sensitivity because I don't get ruffled as
much as other people do on certain topics.
Again, it's one of those things where we can even be day-to-day
(45:12):
our better selves. And I, and again, I hope that
the seven trust languages insideand outside the workplace will
help us understand those ways inwhich we get to recommit to
humanity and dignity each and every day the way that we engage
with people. Yeah, I, I love that.
And I love, you know, similarly to you, I have also, you know,
(45:32):
you write a book and listen, thebook comes and snatch your edges
sometimes. Then you're like, OK, maybe like
you said, maybe I need to do better.
Maybe I need to do better. Maybe I, like you said, I could
be more sensitive or, you know, more transparent.
You know, I, I sometimes get that because I, you know, I'm an
(45:54):
introvert and so I have a lot ofconversations insight that
sounds that sounds bad, but in. My head, I have them too, so I'm
gonna convert to OK. Right, so I have a lot of like
internal mental conversations and sometimes I don't even
realize that I'm not expressing them verbally.
And so, you know, some of my friends have said, oh, well, I
(46:16):
didn't realize that XYZ was going on.
Why didn't you tell me? And I was like, I don't, I don't
know. I wasn't, it wasn't on purpose,
you know, and but I but realizing that my friends want
to know. My friends are interested and
they really care and so trying to remember to come out of my
head and actually express, you know, thoughts or say when I
(46:40):
need help or you know what, whatever it happens to be,
because, you know, that's that'simportant.
Like we have to. It would be a really, really
good exercise just for I mean, Iknow you wrote the book for the
workplace, but like, what is that?
It's it's like, you know, love languages, but you know, in a
just for non romantic for for platonic relationships,
(47:01):
professional relationships, but for friends.
Yeah. My gosh, please tell me there's
going to be like A7 log languages deck or something,
because that has got to happen, right?
That would be, that would be absolutely amazing for people to
sort of interact with the, with the, with the trust languages,
you know, in non professional environments, like, like, you
(47:26):
know, curated environments or environments where there is some
structure, but where it's more casual and they can, you know,
maybe a group of friends laughing together, sharing about
what their trust languages are. That would be absolutely
awesome. Well, thank you for saying that.
I actually created a game calledthe Trust Catalyst that I've
been playing at different companies to get people and it
(47:47):
involves cards and trust shifts and and it gives people
familiar. So they may not have read the
book yet, but we're getting flexing that skill, right?
That skill of understanding whattrust languages and how they
show up and how we can exercise those.
And it's also funny. I think you're reading into the
future, Lisa, but I've been getting a lot of emails.
(48:07):
You know, the book's only been out a couple weeks, but I've
been getting emails from people who have started reading the
book, and they're like, you knowwhat?
This is actually good for family, too.
I'm going to start thinking about how I can use these in a
family. And I hadn't considered it in
that way. So you know.
My gosh, all I'm seeing is brandextension, brand extension,
brand extension. The marketer in me is very
excited for you because to your point that you mentioned at the
(48:30):
top of the show that you, you created your crossover album,
right? And so you, you really have done
that. And yes, your, your primary
audience initially, you know, black women, black, black and
brown people, black and brown women, but this is truly for
everyone. Like you said, it is a global
(48:51):
language. Everyone understands that
feeling, feelings of trusting, you know, having trust in a
situation or with someone or theinverse.
And so this really, Oh my gosh, I mean, you, you kind of like,
you know, you've done brand extensions with your, with your
books before, right? Oh my gosh, talk to me.
Talk to me nice for teams and talk to me nice for listen, I'm
(49:14):
sorry. I am so ready for them all
because this work is interesting.
Something that we mentioned before we came on stage was that
all work, the details of all work might be different, but
there's a similar foundation because what you are doing, what
you have done and what you're doing is healing work, right?
(49:38):
And yes, I know talk to me Nice is a is a business book and and
so on and so forth. And that is how it is
categorized, but it actually expands way beyond that that
genre, you know, So you, you really have truly created your
crossover album and I'm just looking forward to seeing all of
the fabulousness that that results from it.
(50:00):
Well, thank you again. Thank you for seeing me.
I appreciate you. Thank you.
You're welcome. You're welcome.
So this is kind of related to what we were just talking about,
about it not being the, the trust language is not only being
for work, right? So let's say, because work is
such a big part of all of our lives.
(50:22):
So let's say the seven trust languages, it's X number of
years into the future, certain people are no longer president
and the seven trust languages are like fully embedded in
workplace culture globally, in workplace culture, in political
culture and so on. How do you see the world feeling
(50:43):
and looking differently? You know, with, with the seven
trust languages, sort of like inglobal organizational DNA.
Yeah. So I'm very, I'm an optimist and
I feel as though sometimes we just need that little switch to
click in our head and be like, oh, I didn't realize that that
(51:04):
was the thing that we've been needing to talk about on a
larger scale. And so for me, I'm really
excited about seven trust languages being kind of what the
five love languages were in, in our cultural zeitgeist.
But using this as a framework sothat people can root crisis or
(51:24):
misunderstandings in facts and recover, right?
Because it's not enough for us to say, you know what, we just
have bad workplaces and, and your boss is going to erode your
trust. HR is going to erode your trust.
No, that is not OK. Let's, let's redefine what
success looks like. Let's redefine what working
together looks like. Let's redefine how we engage and
(51:45):
have better conversations. And I hope that I will, at the
end of it all, we said that people will say and point to me
being as part of that catalyst, part of that work, right?
And so for me, I just feel like when I was writing my former
books like The Memo and right within, there are a lot of
people who would read it and they'd never know.
They never experienced racism orsexism or ageism in the
(52:08):
workplace. So they couldn't really
understand it. They got it from kind of the
outside book. Intellectual Perspective.
But. Not experientially, but
intellectually. Very good.
And so I realized that, you knowwhat, how can I get you to see
me as a human 1st? And it's that trust.
So if you're in Tokyo, you want trust.
(52:28):
If you're in North Dakota, you want trust.
If you're in Barbados, you want trust.
We can root it all. We all can sit at the table and
talk about when trust is high, when trust isn't there, and how
we can make it better. And I feel like once we have
those better conversations, we get to the ageism, we get to the
sexism, we get to the other thatare taking place.
But we have to start with the T.There's no future if we the word
(52:51):
future, if we take the T out, it's not future, but with we
have that T back in, it's the trust.
It's the future that we get to have going in.
And, and I just want us to have a future where everybody gets to
do their best work without barriers.
And so if we show up better and implement trust, even if we make
a mistake 10 minutes later when you and me log off, we might
(53:12):
erode some trust with somebody. But it's how we get back in the
game, and it's how we demonstrate that we're
trustworthy each and every day. And we get to do that.
And that's a. Privilege.
Oh my gosh, that is that is amazing.
And yes, we do get to make choices every day, every second,
to be honest. And I love that you mentioned
(53:34):
that the likelihood is like evenlook, just now I'm reading from
my own book and I make a mistake.
Mistakes are going to happen, right?
Mistakes are going to happen. So the, the, the goal is not
even really to avoid mistakes fully.
And that that is impossible, right?
Because perfection is impossible.
Do you want to do better? Absolutely.
(53:55):
So yes, the mistake might happen, but then you get back
up, dust yourself off and you start again.
So yes, if maybe you realize youhave not been as transparent as
you could be, you have not been as sensitive as you could be,
you have not followed through. Let me, let me just put the
seven trust languages back up sopeople remember what we're
(54:16):
talking about again. So the seven trust languages,
transparency, security, demonstration, feedback,
acknowledgement, sensitivity andfollow through.
So yes, it's likely that you're going to, you're going to slip
up. But then you have this, you have
this book, you have the framework, you have the why, you
(54:37):
have the how, you have all the scripts, right?
So that you've, you've, you've provided that for all of us so
that we can, it's easier for us to do better.
And I, I truly, truly appreciatethat.
And so before we wrap up, we're a few minutes out.
What is one small thing, one or two small things that listeners
(54:59):
can start doing today? You know before and of course
all of y'all know I'm yes, and I'm pointing my finger like an
auntie. Go and buy this book.
Go and buy talk to me. Nice.
That's number one, right? That's your number one to do.
But if for people who have not yet purchased the book right,
(55:21):
What is one small thing that people can start doing today as
soon as they log off to get closer to building trust in
their, yes, in their professional lives, but also in
their personal lives? Yeah, first of all, thank you.
And and also you need both of the books, Lisa's book and this
book together, OK. And if you are not having the
(55:44):
time to read, I also in the reader for the audio, audio
Audible book. So if you're not tired of my
voice yet, go ahead and get it on Audible.
But what I will say is that two things I think you hit it
perfectly, Lisa, when you said that this isn't about a shame
game. This isn't about blaming
ourselves or blaming us about. This is about just getting
(56:05):
better. What do we got to do to get
better, to be a better colleague, to be a better, you
know, work wife, work husband, whatever it is a better, you
know, HR, a partner in the workplace.
How do we do that? And each and every day we are
tasked with a decision to make. So when you make that next
decision in the next hour, next 15 minutes, next week, think
(56:25):
about it. Is this decision going to
enhance trust or erode trust? And if we take a beat to be able
to say if I CC somebody on this e-mail, do they really need to
be CC Ed or do I or do I just need to send it to the person
that is going? To what's my think about it,
because I can't I do not I trulyI don't understand it.
(56:52):
I really I actually and I got introuble while I remember this at
work for not seeing somebody. I'm like, why?
They did not need to be. And it was not a question of not
being transparent. It was like, I'm thinking I'm
saving this person's inbox. Yeah, yeah.
Yes, anyway, so I know, I know, I ranted, but that that.
Was a trigger. That was a trigger, right?
But you know, am I ceasing this person's manager because I want
(57:16):
to get them in trouble? Or do I need to have a
conversation with this person first before I involve their
manager? We have all it can be in a
situation where we're not thinking about how this impacts
people. If I let that person say the
joke that they always say in theteam meeting and I don't do
anything to stop it, am I enhancing trust with my team or
(57:36):
eroding trust with my team, right?
So let's ask ourselves the decisions that we make take a
pause and say, is this how's this going to impact the person
on the other end, right? How would humanizing their
experience and how they'll receive this information?
Or do we need to have a little more context?
Or do I need to pick up the phone instead of sending the
e-mail? Right?
(57:57):
So think about the things that we can do to make the person on
the receiving end of our experience better.
And I think if we're all doing that, Lisa, then we make the
workplace better than we found it.
We make the our world's better than we found it.
And I don't expect that all of us will speak all 7 language
languages, but if we all pick one and enhance that, think
(58:18):
about how we make the space better.
If we're all being a little moresensitive, a little more
acknowledging somebody's good work, right?
A little goes a long way. Let me let me ask you, I know
we're we're basically at time, but let me ask you another
question. So I know everybody has, will,
will have, has and will have their their primary, primary,
(58:38):
secondary, tertiary, cross languages.
Is there all of all 7? Is there like 1 foundational 1?
I know this is a hard question because you're like, no, we need
all all seven, we need all seven.
But the answer might be no. But is there like 1 foundational
one that you think this is a good place for people to start
(58:59):
with? I'm going to double down on
sensitivity. I think we can be more
empathetic, especially in the country right now.
We don't all have to see policies and and laws the same,
but we can still treat people with humanity and respect,
right? You know, I may, we may not
(59:21):
somebody listening right now, wemay or may not have voted for
the same person. We may not have the same value
system, right? But what we should all have is
that I don't want to take someone's dignity away from
them. I don't want to intentionally
harm anybody else. So do I need to wear the hat in
this environment? Do I need to wear the shirt in
(59:42):
this environment? Or what's that going to signal
to the people on my team, right,who may not feel the same way I
do about a certain thing? We can all be more sensitive
emotionally and culturally. Last I'll say is I hear a lot of
people say I don't watch the news anymore.
If you're a manager or a leader or a colleague, it's important.
You have to watch it all day long, but find out what's going
(01:00:02):
on because that's going to make sure that you're not saying the
thing in the meeting. That might be, you know, toxic
or, you know, maybe today we don't have the one-on-one or the
performance evaluation because that person just had something
happen in their community. That's on my team.
So what would it look like for me to say?
You know what, Minda, I noticed there's a lot going on and
(01:00:23):
whatever in DC right now. Let's wait to have our
conversation next week. Let's touch base this that's I'm
being more sensitive. I'm being emotionally
intelligent, right? That's costs us nothing, but it
enhances so much trust. Yes.
And you're creating psychological safety, an
experience of psychological safety for them, for your
(01:00:45):
imports. We're speaking 2 languages now,
sensitivity and security. Absolutely, Absolutely.
So Minda, thank you so much. We are at time this conversation
could have gone on a lot longer.There's so much to delve into,
but thank you so much for being here.
This absolutely was a wonderful conversation and much needed.
(01:01:06):
Like I said it, it is, you know,the the seven trust language for
the workplace. But let me tell you, this is
about so much more because trustis foundational to every single
human interaction, regardless ofcontext.
So you know, I'm going to encourage all of you, those of
you who are team replay, go back, listen, listen to and
(01:01:30):
watch the entire thing. There's so much that you're
going to learn and make sure, ofcourse, that you get a copy or a
few copies of Talk to Me Nice byMinda Harts.
And so with that, everyone, thank you so much for joining me
on SpaceX. Hail the podcast.
Make sure you tune in every Tuesday on LinkedIn Live to
(01:01:52):
catch the vibes. And if you can't make the live
show, though, I'd love for you to.
But if you can't, that's no problem.
Subscribe on Spotify and YouTubeto catch the replay.
And if you want to dive deeper into what Minda and I were
discussing today, like I said, get a copy of her book.
It is called Talk to Me Nice. It is available everywhere on
(01:02:13):
all, all major book, book resellers and book retailers.
Of course, also go to minderhearts.com for additional
information and definitely, you know, show some love to your
girl as well. Get a copy of Space to Exhale.
Go to Space to exhalebook.com. It's available like Minders
available everywhere, Barnes andNoble, Amazon, Good Reads
(01:02:35):
everywhere, wherever books are sold.
And if you have already purchased a copy of both books,
let us know what you think, right?
Just hop on to the Internet, right?
Write us a review. Let us know what you think.
And so that's it. Goodbye for now.
And remember, I always sign off by saying this.
(01:02:55):
I want you to, I really want youto remember this.
And I'm going to add one more. You're worthy of rest.
You are worthy of trust. You are worthy of love and you
are worthy of having time and space to exhale.
Thank you. Goodbye and I'll see you next
week.
Take a breath. Welcome to Space to Exhale, the
podcast weekly inspiration for self love and soft living.
I am your host Lisa Hurley. I'm a three time Anthem Award
(00:56):
winner, Reiki master, and community builder, and I'm the
author of the book Space to Exhale.
Through healing modalities like breath work, affirmations, and
(01:16):
meditations, I'll guide you on alife changing journey to help
you know yourself, love yourself, be yourself, and
create much needed space to exhale.
(01:41):
Hello folks, and welcome to Space to Exhale the podcast, a
safe, serene sanctuary where we focus on high vibrations,
affirmations, soft living, and self-care.
I'm your host, Lisa Hurley. I'm a three time Anthem
award-winning activist, A Reiki master, and the author of Space
to Exhale, a handbook for curating a soft centered, serene
(02:05):
life. I'm here to help us all do just
that. Relax, take a breath, say no to
hustle culture, and yes to a life of ease.
My hope and dream is for us all to curate lives that we don't
feel we need a break from. Today I am super excited to
(02:26):
introduce to you my guest Minda Hearts and let me just read to
you her bio. Actually, you know, I'll add her
to the stage while while I read her bio Welcome Minda.
I'm just gonna let people know who you are right?
I mean, I'm. Awesome.
Most people know, but just in case they don't, so Minda Hearts
(02:48):
is a best selling author, workplace consultant, and sought
after keynote speaker who's revolutionizing how
organizations build trust. Through her groundbreaking 7
Trust Languages framework, she helps leaders and teams create
cultures where trust becomes their greatest competitive
advantage. As the author of The memo Right
(03:12):
Within You Are More Than Magic, and her latest book, Talk to Me
Nice, The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace, Minda
has empowered thousands to buildstronger workplace relationships
and navigate professional challenges with confidence.
Her impact spans boardrooms and conference stages worldwide,
(03:32):
with companies like Nike, Google, Best Buy, and Zoom
calling on her to drive meaningful change through trust
building strategies. She's been recognized by
LinkedIn as the number one top voice in the workplace and by
Business Insider as one of the top 100 people transforming
business. In addition to her speaking and
(03:55):
consulting work, Minda is shaping future leaders as an NYU
assistant professor and founder of The Memo LLC.
When organizations want to transform their communication
through trust, they call Minda Hearts.
Round of applause, Round of applause, round of applause.
Welcome, Linda. Thank you, Lisa.
(04:16):
I appreciate you and congratulations on space to
exhale. Congratulations.
Thank you so much and congratulations on Talk TO Me.
Nice. Like it's such a major moment.
I mean, this is I, I don't know,like book number 45 or so #4
right? Yeah.
I mean, you, you have been doingit for a while and you know,
(04:38):
thank you for staying consistent.
You know, you, you gave us the memo and so many other books and
you just keep delivering what weneed.
So thank you for that and for being here for the for the
culture and for black and brown people in the workplace.
Appreciate you. So before we get started, those
(04:59):
of you who have been listening, you know that before we get
started with any episode, we ground ourselves with some
breath work and an affirmation. Those of you who are new, we
ground ourselves first with breath work and an affirmation.
So close your eyes, start slowing your breath down, relax
(05:22):
your shoulders, relax your jaw, relax your forehead a bit.
You can probably feel some tension there and relax your
eyebrows. And we're going to do 3 deep
breaths. And so inhale through your nose
and exhale through your mouth and one more inhale and exhale.
(05:51):
Last deep breath, inhale and exhale.
OK, so now that we're a bit moregrounded, as you know, Minda's
new book is Talk to Me Nice. And I always include an
affirmation to ground us for every show.
And so today's affirmation, unsurprisingly, right as I am
(06:15):
committed to being trustworthy and building trust in every
interaction. So keep that in your mind as you
go through, we go through this episode and this experience
together. And so Minda, tell us, tell the
listeners what led you to develop the seven trust
(06:36):
languages. And I see, I see it has a lovely
registration symbol after it, which I love to see.
So tell us what led you to develop this framework.
Yeah, well, again, thank you, Lisa for having me and thank you
for grounding us. I, I needed that.
It's been a, a, a bit of a morning.
So I thank you for that grounding activity.
(06:58):
You know, it's interesting because the work that I have
been doing over the last severalyears had a, a focus on black
and brown women, women of color in the workplace.
And when I decided to write my 4th book, I called it my
crossover album, you know, because I wanted to expand the
table of it. But when I really got to the
(07:18):
core of it, what I've been doingall this time is trust building
work. I just didn't call it that.
And so I thought, you know, there's so much going on in the
workplace, in and outside the workplace.
And the one thing that we all understand is when trust is
present, we know that feeling. And when trust is not present,
we know that feeling. Trust is a global language.
(07:40):
Doesn't matter if you're a womanor a man or a a child, we all
know that feeling of having trust and not having trust.
And so I felt like, you know, let's ground the conversation in
respect and trust because maybe that will help us understand why
we weren't able to solve some ofthese other issues before
because we were trying to get people to walk in our shoes,
(08:01):
which they never will. But we do know what feeling low
trust environment feels like, right?
So for me, I wanted us to be able to get back to a space,
some of some foundational. I think we jumped in the deep
end of the pool, Lisa, and not everybody had the right floaties
and goggles and you know, all the things on.
(08:22):
So I'm like, OK, we got to get back to basics and back to
basics is trust. We can't get to an equitable
workplace if we don't trust eachother.
So, you know, it's kind of the chicken or the egg.
And and that's what I wanted to really dive into is the trust
aspect. OK, thank.
Thank you so much for that. And one of the things you do you
(08:43):
you do it in all of your books as part of your writing style
and you've done it in this book as well as you share anecdotes
from your life, from your career.
Also there there's also always like a running soundtrack
clearly are a music lover. So there's that as well.
But in terms of a story from your life or career, was there
one that led you, a specific onethat led you to say, OK, I I
(09:07):
need to do, I've been thinking about this book, but it needs to
happen right now. And This is why.
It's because you're going through it.
If you're going through it, maybe somebody else is.
Was there a story or an experience that led you there?
Yeah. You know, I, I also thought
about the five love languages who many of us know that in our
(09:27):
cultural lexicon. And I thought, well, if we have
love languages for our romantic and platonic life, what's the
language for work, right. And trust was that thing.
And I thought back to times in my career where I really
appreciated a manager or a colleague demonstrating trust.
I tell one story in the book. I have a manager.
(09:49):
We I call him Harold in the book.
And he told us that a layoff wascoming, a furlough was coming
six months before it happened, right?
And he was very transparent withus.
And I didn't realize how much I value transparency until it
presented itself, right. So he told us what probably
(10:10):
shouldn't have been said. He said the quiet part out loud.
He said, hey, in six months, some of you be here, some of you
won't be. And I don't know who that is
yet, but I want you to prepare for what's to come.
And I'll never forget how I feltthat day, Lisa sitting in that
staff meeting and him preparing us for what's to come, right?
And I felt so grateful to have that information because now I
(10:34):
can plot my next path instead ofsome of my other colleagues who
are on a different team. And their manager tells them
that morning, right? You don't have time to think.
And so he put us as human beingsfirst and employees 2nd.
And that built so much trust. Was he a perfect manager?
No, but in that moment, and as long as he was my manager, I
(10:55):
trusted him that he had my best interest in mind.
And I think I asked people to think about what's a, a manager
that you know, you would run through a brick wall for, right?
It's because you trusted them because they demonstrated that
day in and day out. And I just think that so many of
us have lost sight of what trustmeans and what it means to be
(11:17):
trustworthy in the workplace. Yes, yes.
Thanks for sharing that. That actually reminded me of
similar ish kind of of story really what had happened.
It was a lifetime ago and essentially I was I was hired.
It was supposed to be a full time role and I showed up on,
(11:37):
you know, the day of and they'relike, you know, psych.
It's not, it's not full time, you know, you're freelancer
etcetera, etcetera. OK, so that broke trust.
However, the person you know, towhom I reported directly, you
know, he had no idea that was going to happen.
But what he did was tell me at some point.
(11:58):
Look, I basically, I know that you they keep telling you it's
coming, it's coming, it's comingthe full time role.
It's not coming. It's it's it's not so it's
similar. So it's it's not going, it's not
going to happen. And so I want you to take time,
You know, you're great at what you do.
Take time, look for your next role and go out on, you know,
(12:20):
leave on your own terms. So it's, it's similar and that
really, like you said, when a boss, a manager, a leader takes
the time to see you and treat you as a human being first, as
opposed to a number, as opposed to a line item on a spreadsheet.
And it, you know, it makes everything, it makes the hugest
(12:41):
difference. And that that former boss and I
are like, we're like, we're, youknow, friends on Facebook,
whatever, you know, that kind ofthing.
So it, it has long lasting and far reaching consequences both
when trust is built and when clearly when it is broken as
well. Speaking of which, So what are
(13:03):
the signs especially for black women and women of colour, but
really, like you said, crossoveralums.
So it's for everybody, right? So what are the signs,
especially the signs that are easy to overlook, that trust has
been or is being eroded? Yeah, that's a great a great
question. And I think so many of us have
normalized these toxic behaviorsinside the workplace that we
(13:26):
don't even think about what trust is.
I mean again, we wanted in our romantic and platonic
relationships, why wouldn't we want it at a place that will
spend 90,000 of our 90,000 hoursof our lives?
Trust should be. That's most of our lives, to be
honest of our. Lives, yeah, I hate to say it, I
know somebody might have to takeanother exhale here in 90,000
(13:47):
hours, right? But but that is the truth that
it's like, okay, we got to get some trust ushered into this
space and some of the areas thatpeople I think don't think about
as often, they know when it's happening to them.
It feels uncomfortable. But these are erosions of trust.
Often, Lisa, think people think it's the grand acts, right?
The grand acts of betrayal, but it's actually the silent moments
(14:11):
that we never talk about, right?So yes, we might talk about the
layoffs and the reorganizations.Those are ways that trust is
eroded in the workplace, but also the micromanaging, right?
That's a big one. That's a big one, that is.
A big one, because it shows him behavior.
It shows him behavior. No matter what someone says, you
(14:34):
see the truth in their actions. Absolutely.
So micromanaging. You mentioned one where somebody
promises you something in the workplace, dangles that carrot
if you will, and then you never get the carrot right.
It's a mirage and so, oh, it's. Not carrot.
It's an invisible carrot. You're like, wait a second, just
(14:58):
one more year, one more quarter when we keep let's talk about it
in six months and next thing youknow, it's been 10 years and
you're like, wait a second, whathappened to that carrot?
You know, and, and those are those erosions of trust, even
down to a lot of us work, you know, hybrid or on virtual
screens. And it's sometimes people don't
have their camera on for variousreasons, right?
(15:19):
But somebody may see that I'm having a very important
conversation and because I don'tknow what you're doing over
there, I'm thinking that I can'ttrust you, right?
And so there's all these, it's less of a trust issue, but more
of an expectation gap, right? I expect something of you which
is trustworthy in my view. But because you don't know that,
the erosions keep taking place. And it was one of the reasons I
(15:41):
wrote this book, Lisa, because Ifelt like we just didn't have
the language to be able to articulate when certain things
have happened so that we can course correct.
But people can't show you what trust looks like if they don't
know what good looks like to you, right?
And so getting clear on what we need in the workplace is that
more transparency, is that more feedback.
(16:02):
People can't give you that if they don't know that's what you
need. Right, right, exactly.
And that that segues nicely into.
So we've kind of like laid the groundwork.
So explain to viewers outline the Seve trust languages you've
already compared it to. OK, the basis was the five love
(16:23):
languages, or the idea came fromthat we need trust languages for
the workplace. But what?
What are the seven trust languages and why are they so
fundamental to workplace relationships?
So it's funny when I get the opportunity to speak at a lot of
different companies and people have run my books.
And so they'll approach me over the years and say, oh, I don't
(16:45):
trust my manager or I don't trust my colleague or the big
one, I don't trust HR, right? So they'll always say that to
me. And the more I kept hearing
people tell me that, I thought, wait, what's underneath the
reason why, right? It's not that it's not just
trust, but there's something underneath it.
And the more I started to ask questions, I'm like, oh, what
you really need is clarity and honesty.
(17:07):
You need more transparency. Oh, what you really need is
intellectual security or psychological security.
Or you need. That safety and belonging, Oh,
what you really need is demonstration somebody modeling
the behavior in which they are doing what they say.
Oh, you really need feedback, meaningful and consistent
(17:29):
insight. Oh, you really need to be
acknowledged, right. See, you need to be seen for
your work. Oh, and now one of the next
languages, sensitivity. There's so many managers and
colleagues that need the language of sensitivity, right?
Just because a joke might be funny to me doesn't mean it's
going to land that way to somebody else in the room,
(17:51):
right? So what you really need is a
more empathetic leader or colleague.
And lastly, I heard people saying they need more follow
through, people keeping their word.
If you say you're going to do something, then let me know that
and if you can't do it anymore and tell me that too, that's
still following through. And so I found that no matter
(18:14):
what people were saying, it fellin one of these like 7 boxes of
what they needed. And I thought, OK, what would it
look like to ask for a little more clarity or a little more
honesty around your job description?
You've been you were hired for ajob and now you've been doing a
different job, but you don't trust your manager.
But have a conversation and findout what has changed, you know,
(18:35):
so again, understanding what I need in the workplace.
And the book does that through assessments, but then also the
people that we work with, maybe we're eroding trust
unintentionally and we don't even know it right.
So being able to show up becausetrust is a two way St.
Wow, that that is. I love that you put so much
(18:56):
thought into it. And I also love that you
included among all the others, all of the other trust
languages. I love that you included
sensitivity. That was actually a pleasant
surprise to me when I started delving into the book.
I was like, oh, this is not something with the others.
I'm like, OK, yes, transparency,security, demonstration,
(19:18):
feedback, acknowledgement, follow through.
Would not have expected sensitivity to show up there.
And I think you probably know why it sounds like one of the
quote UN quote other people callsoft skills, which I don't.
I don't believe that that is a real thing, that soft skills are
a real thing. I think soft skills are actually
hard. There are they're hard skills
(19:39):
and they're they're difficult for people to actually
implement. Sensitivity is so necessary.
I think it is a close cousin of empathy.
And so I love that that is is isincluded in the in the
framework. So actually hadn't intended to
go here, but what are your trust?
(20:00):
What? What are your trust languages?
Have you identified yours? Yes, yes, I, I have.
And it's been fun to find out what people, they had not
considered what theirs might be.And so there is a quiz inside
the book for people to figure that out.
But mine, I have three and one of them is transparency,
(20:21):
feedback and acknowledgement. So those things really build
trust with me. And you know, I want to say too
about transparency. I think there's a misconception
in the workplace, Lisa, that being transparent is telling
everybody everything, right? And that's not transparency.
Transparency is also saying thisis all the information I have.
(20:41):
And when I have more, I'll let you know.
Or if you have questions, then feel free to come and and ask
me, right? But I think that, you know, some
people feel, oh, we can't tell everybody everything.
Some things you just don't need to know.
But also telling people that is we're just having a space to
have that. That's being transparent.
That's going to calm my nervous system a little bit instead of
(21:03):
seeing the smoke coming out of the chimney and then everybody
pretending that the smoke is notcoming out of the chimney.
That that's a very, you know, the Emperor, the Emperor's
invisible clothes and whatever, like, no, there's nothing,
nothing is happening here. What are you even talking about?
Right? I definitely remember a
situation where, again, long, long story, but you know,
company I worked with was going through some issues as they do.
(21:25):
And one of my colleagues was kind of UPS with, you know, they
were upset that management had not shared certain details,
including some financial ones, right?
And while I understood my colleagues feelings, I, you
know, pull her aside. And he said, look, certainly
especially when you get to a certain level of management, you
(21:45):
actually have a fiduciary and legal duty to not reveal certain
information, right. And so sometimes the you know,
someone in senior management notsharing something, it's not
because they don't want to, it'sbecause they can't.
But to your point, had management, senior management
just said we cannot share. We, we, you know, we legally
(22:07):
cannot share this. But here's what's happening at a
high level that would have created, like you said, you
know, regulated everyone's nervous systems a little bit and
help them breathe a little easier, you know for sure.
Yeah. So a lot of this, the framework
and the, the, the work that you're, you've laid out for us
and provided us with in this book sounds like it has a
(22:30):
grounding in emotional intelligence.
Like I said, what what folks would call the soft skills,
which I truly, I believe this, like I said, the soft skills are
the hard skills. So what made you go basically
ground your work in an emotionalintelligence model versus which
(22:51):
is very a reciprocal, A reciprocal model, A model of
transparency and reciprocity, whereas most, a a lot of books
talk about transaction, you do this for me, I do this for you,
that, that sort of relationship.So what made you go like hard
180 in the other direction? Yeah, thank you for seeing that.
(23:13):
I, I went really hard that direction because I believe that
the future of work is understanding the human element.
We can't take that away, right? The human element is so
important in our connection, andI think that it's important for
us to again, remind each other that we're not robots, right?
That we do have feelings, we do have thoughts, and we all just
(23:34):
want to do the best work of our career.
But we can't do that when there's a lot of barriers,
right? So, but the other part of it is
we don't have the space to be able to talk about what those
barriers are. And so my hope is that through
the new book Talk to Me nice that people have the language to
be able to remove those barriersa for themselves, but then for
others, right? Because again, you know, trust
(23:56):
might be there at 10 AM and thensomebody does something or says
something unintentionally or intentionally and it's gone by
10:10, right? That happens all day long.
And we don't say anything. We don't do anything.
We just kind of side eye each other all day long and nobody
knows what the what the erosion was, right?
And So what would it look like if we talked about it in a way
(24:19):
that is respectful, right? How do we enhance trust instead
of eroding trust? And I feel like again, there's
trust isn't necessarily the issue at work.
It's we have a communication crisis.
We no longer know how to talk toeach other.
We don't consider the nuance in situations.
We create narratives that may ormay not be true based of our
interactions with somebody. And I'm like, OK, let's just
(24:43):
flip the table over and restart it with some respect, humanity
and dignity. Right.
And back to the basics, because honestly, when you have, like
you said, respect, honesty, trust those, those like basics,
the basics are the foundation ofthe house, right?
I, I did, I did a post the otherday about, you know, houses,
(25:05):
some kinds of houses in, in Barbados that are for various
reasons, they're not built on a solid foundation.
No house, house, organization, whatever you want to call it.
If the foundation is shaky, the rest of it is.
At some point it is going to to either literally topple or
(25:26):
you'll just, there'll always just be a sense of insecurity, a
lack of security, lack of psychological safety.
And all of that ties into a lackof trust and being able to relax
at work. And that probably sounds like an
oxymoron, like it's work. You're not supposed to be
relaxing. But I know you understand what I
mean. Yes, there's work to do.
(25:46):
So you go in and you do what needs to be done, but you do it
from a perspective where you're not in fight or flight.
Fight. What was it?
Fight, fright flees, freeze, fawn, right?
You're not in any of those states.
You can relax mentally and psychologically and show up as
your best self. Yeah.
And that's should be afforded toall of us, right?
(26:09):
Some people, you shouldn't have to be sitting in your, in your
favorite chair at home or in theoffice and wondering who's going
to attack you today and all of those things, Right.
And again, I think that if trustcan be broken, it can also be
rebuilt. But we need the language to be
able to demonstrate, you know, trust has to be a noun and a
(26:29):
verb, right? And I think sometimes in the
workplace, we just show up with our titles and we think, oh,
trust is automatically here and,and no, trust is built each and
every day. Trust is not a one time event.
It's a culture. It's a lifestyle.
I love that trust is a culture and a lifestyle.
So once somebody identifies their trust languages, let me
(26:52):
put them back up so everybody can see them again and again.
These seven trust languages are transparency, security,
demonstration, feedback, acknowledgement, sensitivity,
and follow through. So once somebody has identified
their trust language and startedto work with it, like how, how
do they then show up? It's like, OK, so you come in,
(27:13):
right? You somebody, right, all the
companies, right, hire Minda, right?
You come in and consult about the trust languages, you come
in, you do your, your course andyour, you know, you do your
work, right? And so how do you help people
then implement that? So after you leave, right, and
you've done the training the next day when you're not there
(27:35):
to guide them through, how do people implement, actually
implement on their own? Yeah.
So the lovely thing that I like about this book that's probably
a little bit different than my last books is I pretty much give
it play by play on how, let's say for example, sensitivity is
somebody's primary trust language, and then you might
find that you have a secondary or a tertiary trust language.
(27:58):
And so maybe sensitivity is an issue.
Maybe you work with someone who's always telling the joke
that nobody needs to hear between 8:00 and 5:00 or ever,
but they think they're the funnyperson in the office.
They're always saying the thing.But it's impacting you because a
lot of the jokes tend to be about, you know, your community
(28:19):
or whatever that is. And, you know, a good, a good
example of that in culture rightnow is that there's a lot of
backlash against Gen. Z, right, in terms of how they
show up. And so many people have so many
bad things to say about Gen. Z, right?
And this is where we need to build trust with various
generations. And So what would it look like
(28:42):
for us to be a little more culturally sensitive to how
they've been socialized, right? Certain ways in which they get
to use their voice that may havetaken US 20 years to ask for a
raise. And they're like, I've been here
for six months. What are we waiting on?
Right? They're asking.
They're moving in a different way.
Does it mean that it's wrong? Does it mean that it's right?
Does it mean, but they're not going to trust us from other
(29:04):
generations if we don't build relationships with them and try
to understand what they are. So instead of saying you guys
don't like to work or you don't understand workplace culture,
what would it look like to be sensitive and be a mentor or a
coach to say, yeah, I understandwhy you're asking for that, but
here, this is how things kind ofwork.
Let me show you the rules, right?
(29:25):
It feels better, it sounds better.
And that and I also give you step by step on how you
implement those things. I give sample scripts on OK, you
can't just walk up to your a person who doesn't know what a
trust language is and say, give me more.
But you can give examples. Root your conversations in fact,
right? Point to examples that are
tangible. Not that oh, I don't feel like
(29:47):
you like me. No, in last week's meeting you
said XY and Z and I just wanted to understand what you meant by
that, right? Because I understand you weren't
trying to erode trust. But this is how it came to me,
and I wanted to have a conversation about it.
We are all adults in the workplace, but it's not what we
say, but how we say it. And I think if we speak to each
other with humanity and dignity,even on those tough
(30:10):
conversations, we can still uphold somebody, our integrity
and somebody else's dignity well.
That that, that is, that is beautiful.
And I do love that you provide scripts because a lot of people,
I, you know, identify the what without saying, OK, but here's
(30:30):
the how, here's the how. And even even, let's say so
someone is following, has followed your script, but maybe
maybe they don't completely likeimplement it to the letter and
something goes awry. So when trust is broken, whether
it's between individuals, you know, individual colleagues or
(30:50):
you know an organization to its employee base, what is the first
step toward build toward repair and healing?
What, what, what first step should anyone take?
Maybe, maybe let's start with one, You know, one-on-one, one
colleague to another, a manager,manager, direct report
relationship. Yeah, I also want to acknowledge
(31:12):
that when trust is broken and the power dynamics are different
right from your manager, your manager might be the one causing
the problems or you know, HR you're having the issue there.
And so I also give scripts for when somebody doesn't show up
the way you want them to and howyou respond.
But what I will say is I think most people want to Createspace
(31:37):
for us to work well together. I think most people do, but the
issue is we don't all have the same tools for conflict
resolution. And So what I would first do is
identify what is it that you need to feel that trust is
present in the workplace. And once you identify what your
trust languages are, whatever the person that is causing kind
of the pain point, root the conversation in the fact.
(32:00):
So for example, let's say that Ifind that feedback is really
important to me, but I work for somebody who never gives me any
feedback. I've done like 10 projects.
I don't know if they've been done well or not.
Nothing's taking place and I don't necessarily have the kind
of relationship with my manager to to ask for it or I'm nervous
to ask for it, whatever the casemay be.
(32:21):
And I'm like, OK, how can he or how can they provide me feedback
if they don't know that that's what's needed for me, right?
And maybe I didn't even realize that.
So Long story short is I can instead of going to my manager
and saying you never give me, you never give me any feedback.
I don't know if I'm doing good. I don't know if I belong.
They're going to be on the defense, right?
(32:43):
What would it look like to say, OK, I just wanted to chat with
you because I just finished up this project and went really
well. I feel good about it.
But I wanted to know how you feel because the last three
projects I completed, you haven't given me any feedback.
Is that something we can partner?
I really value when you offer mefeedback on these projects
because then I know if I'm headed the right direction and I
(33:06):
want to keep getting better eachand every Sprint, that manager
is going to be like, oh, OK, yeah, I can do that, right?
And I think that's part of it. We create these narratives that
people don't want us to be successful, but half the time
they have 90,000 things they're doing.
They're not thinking about us and what just you heard.
Is true people listen, people are going through and before
(33:28):
before you and I, you know, start started the show
officially. We're chatting about this a bit
backstage is that there is so much happening in the world
right now, so much happening in the US and that is sort of
bleeding out into the rest of the world affecting affecting
everyone globally. And people have a lot going on.
They have a lot on their minds and there's just exponentially
(33:53):
more stress. I think a lot of us thought, OK,
you know, COVID happened and that's probably like the high
point of stress and chaos that the world is going to
experience. And then other things happened
and, and, and here we are. So also, and I don't know if
this ties into the sensitivity trust language, but just having
(34:13):
that awareness that maybe just maybe somebody's whatever they,
you might think they're going through has nothing to do with
you, right? Or, you know, they might just be
under a huge weight of stress, you know nothing about.
And so lead with some sensitivity, lead with some
empathy, ask a question, ask with, you know, lead with, hey,
(34:36):
are you OK? You know, depending on your
relationship, of course, you know, you see, you see in a
little, you know, not like your usual self.
Is everything OK? Just want to check in on you.
That is something that can help building to, to build
relationships and let people know, hey, I see you as a human
being and I care about you in that way.
And I, I think that's really, really important.
Yeah, thank you for highlightingthat, Lisa, Because, you know,
(34:58):
back to the sensitivity, you know, people will say, well,
does it take all that just get back to work, right.
We're seeing a lot of dialogue around CEOs just saying be happy
you have a job. And it's like, OK, two things
can be true at the same time. I can be grateful for the work
that I have, but I can also workeven more, be more productive
when trust is present. And the data shows that when
(35:20):
trust is present, we're 21% moreproductive.
There's 50% more retention, right?
50% less burnout. And so trust isn't just, oh, let
me wrap myself in, in a trust blanket and do a trust ball.
No, trust is good for business, you know?
And so I think that we have to understand that people will be
(35:42):
be more productive when they aren't fearful, right, or when
they can have conversations, butto be like, oh, just get back to
work, OK, return to office. I understand that maybe it's no
longer sustainable for everybodyto work from home anymore, but
let's talk about the why. Listen, we have all these
buildings and we're losing moneyevery single day.
We need everybody back. But let's talk about a plan that
(36:05):
you you now don't live in the same state.
Let's take, let's plan 8 months to get you transitioned back
into the state in which you can live.
Like there's so many ways that we can have better conversations
with each other that keep trust at the center.
And I just feel like so many leaders right now are playing in
the Wizard of Oz is the cowardlyLion.
(36:25):
And we don't need that type of, we don't need those type of
leaders right now. No, no, no, we don't.
And it's so this is this is sucha good topic.
And when I was, it's funny that you mentioned trust.
Trust falls when I was looking through initially to see I just
want to check in SpaceX say likehow many times do I mention the
(36:46):
word trust? I was just like, interested,
right? I met, you know, I mentioned a
few times when I came across oneparagraph that said Sanders that
said, well, how am I going to doa trust fall with somebody that
just stabbed me in the back, right?
And that's basically like the foundation of what you're
talking about. Like, you know, the, the, the,
(37:06):
you have to be able to trust people, trust their behavior,
and it can't be performative. And you also talked about the
link between trust, psychological safety and being
able to relax and rest at work. And so while we're here, I want
to read people who all my, my listeners, my stalwarts who join
(37:27):
every week know that I, I, I read a short excerpt from the
book every week. And so of course, you know, I'm
a big fan. I met him like, oh, I'm
mentioning Minda in my book, butnot, not just because I mean,
obviously I wanted to, but your work is relevant, right?
And so I do mention about, you know, the need to be able to
(37:50):
curate your career with wisdom. And I think that trust ties into
rest because that's how if you have trust, work does not have
to be constantly stressful and it doesn't have to be something
you mentioned burnout earlier. It doesn't have to be something
that you burnout from. So I'll read this excerpt and
(38:10):
then you know, we'll, we'll diveback into the conversation.
So this one is from chapter 8. It's called curate your career.
So how to curate your career? So this book is about making
choices. It's about curating your life so
that it operates to your benefitto you.
(38:32):
Sorry, I completely messed up because I'm a human being.
So I'm going to start again, right?
This book is about making choices.
It's about curating your life sothat it operates to your benefit
and frees you to enjoy greater ease.
The curation process is 1 of examination, interrogation,
selection and implementation. So you end up with an exhibit
(38:56):
your life that is pleasing to your spirit, supportive to your
mind, and healthy for your body.Because adulting is a scam and
capitalism is a hater. Our professions play an enormous
role in our existence on this earth, so much so that we can't
truly redesign our lives withoutconsidering what kind of career
we want and how to approach it so that we succeed in whatever
(39:18):
way we define success. There are entire books written
on this subject targeted specifically to Black women and
women of color. The Memo by Minder Hartz is an
excellent one. Hearts makes the indisputable
point that if a traditional career is what you truly want,
then you must play the game according to the rules that have
been established because patriarchy and white supremacy
(39:40):
aren't going anywhere anytime soon until changes are made at a
systemic level. It is what it is.
She's 100% right. For some of us, including me at
one point, that is the path we desire.
We enjoy the daily joust, the thrust and parry, the schemes
and strategies. We enjoy proving the naysayers
wrong and proving our cheerleaders right.
(40:01):
We want to ascend to the corporate ladder and eventually
sit pretty in the C-Suite, and that is perfectly OK.
We are allowed to want what we want.
We are allowed to seek success in whatever ways are meaningful
to us. We are also allowed to change
our minds about how we define success.
Space or exhale is about exactlythat, Pausing to reflect, taking
(40:23):
a breath and choosing a different path.
As the years have passed, by definition of success has
evolved. To paraphrase James Baldwin, I
do not dream of labour. For me, rest is the new success.
And so yes, yes, Minda people, people like what is what's the
(40:46):
tie again between rest and spaceto exhale And the trust
languages is because when, when you have that trust, when you
have that trust, you can relax and show up as your best self.
When you have that trust, you don't have to burn out.
And mentioned here about enjoying what I call the daily,
the daily joust. You know, and you mentioned this
(41:07):
a little bit earlier, you know, I'm wondering if somebody is
keeping behind your back, wondering what management is up
to all of those things. When you are in that state, you
are not in a state of trust and relaxation.
And no matter whether you think you are showing up as your best
self, I guarantee you that you are not.
I guarantee. Period.
(41:28):
Period. I mean, there's a statistic out
there, Lisa and you with the work you do, I'm sure you're
aware of this, but maybe this will be new for some of the
visit or from the listeners is over 40 million in America, 40
million people suffer from anxiety and depression.
I'm not saying that the workplace is the root cause of
that, but I guarantee if we havemore ease and spaces to exhale
(41:51):
inside the workplace, there'd beless people feeling that
anxiousness or those Sunday scary, Monday scary's right.
And so there we don't have to have toxic workplaces.
We can let's UN normalize that those toxic behaviors for
success. So thank you for that.
Thank you. Thank you.
Because space exhale is about anapproach not just for for for
(42:13):
work and for life. And so I see what you have
written as you know, you're, you're like, well, let's create
some space, exhale in our organizations, in our
relationships, in our, you know,with our colleagues and really
dive into, you know, the, the psychological safety of it all
because psychological safety is a form of rest.
(42:37):
And so actually Speaking of that, how have you, because you
know, you've been doing this work for a while.
I know, I know. And I know how books go.
It's like people, people see, oh, well, you know, Mina Mina's
published a book and think that it just happened.
Like you've probably been working on it, I would imagine
for years, if not months, if notyears, right.
And so how have you experienced rest as you were, you know, read
(43:01):
it as you were writing this book, continuing your career,
continuing your consulting work.How did you experience, you
know, the seven trust languages and rest in psychological safety
in your own career? Yeah, thank you for that.
Well, I pitched the book two years ago.
And so, Lisa, yes, trust is always important.
(43:23):
You should never go out of style.
But I didn't know we'd be in thethe workplace, the climate that
we would be in and and just the climate in general.
And so trust inside, outside theworkplace is so important.
And what I would say is, as writing this book, I was more
aware of myself. I was able to put a mirror up to
(43:45):
myself and say, am I demonstrating trustworthy
behaviors? Right, Because it's easy to say
somebody else isn't doing the right things or very roding.
It's easy to say you, you, you, you, you, But what about me?
How can I show up as a better? So I'm writing these languages,
right? And I'm like, oh, crap, I can be
more transparent. I can provide more, you know,
(44:07):
like when somebody tells me I prime example, somebody, a
friend of mine was telling me a story that happened to them and
I was like, oh, it's OK, you know, don't get been out of
shape about it. It's fine, it's fine and they're
like, well, how would you feel? I said I wouldn't care.
I wouldn't move on with my day. And it stopped me in my tracks
because I needed the language ofsensitivity they were share they
were sharing with me being vulnerable about something that
(44:30):
bothered them. And how often do we dismiss
somebody's feelings, right? Because it's not bothering me.
So why, why are you tripping, right?
And then those are those momentsfor erosion.
And again, it's unintentionally.We think we're saying the right
thing sometimes. And I have to go back and
apologize to them and say, you know what?
I'm sorry that I wasn't as sensitive to how you feel.
(44:50):
Yes, it it didn't bother me in the same way, but you are a
different person. And let's talk about ways that
maybe we can demonstrate, and I have to continuously demonstrate
the language of sensitivity because I don't get ruffled as
much as other people do on certain topics.
Again, it's one of those things where we can even be day-to-day
(45:12):
our better selves. And I, and again, I hope that
the seven trust languages insideand outside the workplace will
help us understand those ways inwhich we get to recommit to
humanity and dignity each and every day the way that we engage
with people. Yeah, I, I love that.
And I love, you know, similarly to you, I have also, you know,
(45:32):
you write a book and listen, thebook comes and snatch your edges
sometimes. Then you're like, OK, maybe like
you said, maybe I need to do better.
Maybe I need to do better. Maybe I, like you said, I could
be more sensitive or, you know, more transparent.
You know, I, I sometimes get that because I, you know, I'm an
(45:54):
introvert and so I have a lot ofconversations insight that
sounds that sounds bad, but in. My head, I have them too, so I'm
gonna convert to OK. Right, so I have a lot of like
internal mental conversations and sometimes I don't even
realize that I'm not expressing them verbally.
And so, you know, some of my friends have said, oh, well, I
(46:16):
didn't realize that XYZ was going on.
Why didn't you tell me? And I was like, I don't, I don't
know. I wasn't, it wasn't on purpose,
you know, and but I but realizing that my friends want
to know. My friends are interested and
they really care and so trying to remember to come out of my
head and actually express, you know, thoughts or say when I
(46:40):
need help or you know what, whatever it happens to be,
because, you know, that's that'simportant.
Like we have to. It would be a really, really
good exercise just for I mean, Iknow you wrote the book for the
workplace, but like, what is that?
It's it's like, you know, love languages, but you know, in a
just for non romantic for for platonic relationships,
(47:01):
professional relationships, but for friends.
Yeah. My gosh, please tell me there's
going to be like A7 log languages deck or something,
because that has got to happen, right?
That would be, that would be absolutely amazing for people to
sort of interact with the, with the, with the trust languages,
you know, in non professional environments, like, like, you
(47:26):
know, curated environments or environments where there is some
structure, but where it's more casual and they can, you know,
maybe a group of friends laughing together, sharing about
what their trust languages are. That would be absolutely
awesome. Well, thank you for saying that.
I actually created a game calledthe Trust Catalyst that I've
been playing at different companies to get people and it
(47:47):
involves cards and trust shifts and and it gives people
familiar. So they may not have read the
book yet, but we're getting flexing that skill, right?
That skill of understanding whattrust languages and how they
show up and how we can exercise those.
And it's also funny. I think you're reading into the
future, Lisa, but I've been getting a lot of emails.
(48:07):
You know, the book's only been out a couple weeks, but I've
been getting emails from people who have started reading the
book, and they're like, you knowwhat?
This is actually good for family, too.
I'm going to start thinking about how I can use these in a
family. And I hadn't considered it in
that way. So you know.
My gosh, all I'm seeing is brandextension, brand extension,
brand extension. The marketer in me is very
excited for you because to your point that you mentioned at the
(48:30):
top of the show that you, you created your crossover album,
right? And so you, you really have done
that. And yes, your, your primary
audience initially, you know, black women, black, black and
brown people, black and brown women, but this is truly for
everyone. Like you said, it is a global
(48:51):
language. Everyone understands that
feeling, feelings of trusting, you know, having trust in a
situation or with someone or theinverse.
And so this really, Oh my gosh, I mean, you, you kind of like,
you know, you've done brand extensions with your, with your
books before, right? Oh my gosh, talk to me.
Talk to me nice for teams and talk to me nice for listen, I'm
(49:14):
sorry. I am so ready for them all
because this work is interesting.
Something that we mentioned before we came on stage was that
all work, the details of all work might be different, but
there's a similar foundation because what you are doing, what
you have done and what you're doing is healing work, right?
(49:38):
And yes, I know talk to me Nice is a is a business book and and
so on and so forth. And that is how it is
categorized, but it actually expands way beyond that that
genre, you know, So you, you really have truly created your
crossover album and I'm just looking forward to seeing all of
the fabulousness that that results from it.
(50:00):
Well, thank you again. Thank you for seeing me.
I appreciate you. Thank you.
You're welcome. You're welcome.
So this is kind of related to what we were just talking about,
about it not being the, the trust language is not only being
for work, right? So let's say, because work is
such a big part of all of our lives.
(50:22):
So let's say the seven trust languages, it's X number of
years into the future, certain people are no longer president
and the seven trust languages are like fully embedded in
workplace culture globally, in workplace culture, in political
culture and so on. How do you see the world feeling
(50:43):
and looking differently? You know, with, with the seven
trust languages, sort of like inglobal organizational DNA.
Yeah. So I'm very, I'm an optimist and
I feel as though sometimes we just need that little switch to
click in our head and be like, oh, I didn't realize that that
(51:04):
was the thing that we've been needing to talk about on a
larger scale. And so for me, I'm really
excited about seven trust languages being kind of what the
five love languages were in, in our cultural zeitgeist.
But using this as a framework sothat people can root crisis or
(51:24):
misunderstandings in facts and recover, right?
Because it's not enough for us to say, you know what, we just
have bad workplaces and, and your boss is going to erode your
trust. HR is going to erode your trust.
No, that is not OK. Let's, let's redefine what
success looks like. Let's redefine what working
together looks like. Let's redefine how we engage and
(51:45):
have better conversations. And I hope that I will, at the
end of it all, we said that people will say and point to me
being as part of that catalyst, part of that work, right?
And so for me, I just feel like when I was writing my former
books like The Memo and right within, there are a lot of
people who would read it and they'd never know.
They never experienced racism orsexism or ageism in the
(52:08):
workplace. So they couldn't really
understand it. They got it from kind of the
outside book. Intellectual Perspective.
But. Not experientially, but
intellectually. Very good.
And so I realized that, you knowwhat, how can I get you to see
me as a human 1st? And it's that trust.
So if you're in Tokyo, you want trust.
(52:28):
If you're in North Dakota, you want trust.
If you're in Barbados, you want trust.
We can root it all. We all can sit at the table and
talk about when trust is high, when trust isn't there, and how
we can make it better. And I feel like once we have
those better conversations, we get to the ageism, we get to the
sexism, we get to the other thatare taking place.
But we have to start with the T.There's no future if we the word
(52:51):
future, if we take the T out, it's not future, but with we
have that T back in, it's the trust.
It's the future that we get to have going in.
And, and I just want us to have a future where everybody gets to
do their best work without barriers.
And so if we show up better and implement trust, even if we make
a mistake 10 minutes later when you and me log off, we might
(53:12):
erode some trust with somebody. But it's how we get back in the
game, and it's how we demonstrate that we're
trustworthy each and every day. And we get to do that.
And that's a. Privilege.
Oh my gosh, that is that is amazing.
And yes, we do get to make choices every day, every second,
to be honest. And I love that you mentioned
(53:34):
that the likelihood is like evenlook, just now I'm reading from
my own book and I make a mistake.
Mistakes are going to happen, right?
Mistakes are going to happen. So the, the, the goal is not
even really to avoid mistakes fully.
And that that is impossible, right?
Because perfection is impossible.
Do you want to do better? Absolutely.
(53:55):
So yes, the mistake might happen, but then you get back
up, dust yourself off and you start again.
So yes, if maybe you realize youhave not been as transparent as
you could be, you have not been as sensitive as you could be,
you have not followed through. Let me, let me just put the
seven trust languages back up sopeople remember what we're
(54:16):
talking about again. So the seven trust languages,
transparency, security, demonstration, feedback,
acknowledgement, sensitivity andfollow through.
So yes, it's likely that you're going to, you're going to slip
up. But then you have this, you have
this book, you have the framework, you have the why, you
(54:37):
have the how, you have all the scripts, right?
So that you've, you've, you've provided that for all of us so
that we can, it's easier for us to do better.
And I, I truly, truly appreciatethat.
And so before we wrap up, we're a few minutes out.
What is one small thing, one or two small things that listeners
(54:59):
can start doing today? You know before and of course
all of y'all know I'm yes, and I'm pointing my finger like an
auntie. Go and buy this book.
Go and buy talk to me. Nice.
That's number one, right? That's your number one to do.
But if for people who have not yet purchased the book right,
(55:21):
What is one small thing that people can start doing today as
soon as they log off to get closer to building trust in
their, yes, in their professional lives, but also in
their personal lives? Yeah, first of all, thank you.
And and also you need both of the books, Lisa's book and this
book together, OK. And if you are not having the
(55:44):
time to read, I also in the reader for the audio, audio
Audible book. So if you're not tired of my
voice yet, go ahead and get it on Audible.
But what I will say is that two things I think you hit it
perfectly, Lisa, when you said that this isn't about a shame
game. This isn't about blaming
ourselves or blaming us about. This is about just getting
(56:05):
better. What do we got to do to get
better, to be a better colleague, to be a better, you
know, work wife, work husband, whatever it is a better, you
know, HR, a partner in the workplace.
How do we do that? And each and every day we are
tasked with a decision to make. So when you make that next
decision in the next hour, next 15 minutes, next week, think
(56:25):
about it. Is this decision going to
enhance trust or erode trust? And if we take a beat to be able
to say if I CC somebody on this e-mail, do they really need to
be CC Ed or do I or do I just need to send it to the person
that is going? To what's my think about it,
because I can't I do not I trulyI don't understand it.
(56:52):
I really I actually and I got introuble while I remember this at
work for not seeing somebody. I'm like, why?
They did not need to be. And it was not a question of not
being transparent. It was like, I'm thinking I'm
saving this person's inbox. Yeah, yeah.
Yes, anyway, so I know, I know, I ranted, but that that.
Was a trigger. That was a trigger, right?
But you know, am I ceasing this person's manager because I want
(57:16):
to get them in trouble? Or do I need to have a
conversation with this person first before I involve their
manager? We have all it can be in a
situation where we're not thinking about how this impacts
people. If I let that person say the
joke that they always say in theteam meeting and I don't do
anything to stop it, am I enhancing trust with my team or
(57:36):
eroding trust with my team, right?
So let's ask ourselves the decisions that we make take a
pause and say, is this how's this going to impact the person
on the other end, right? How would humanizing their
experience and how they'll receive this information?
Or do we need to have a little more context?
Or do I need to pick up the phone instead of sending the
e-mail? Right?
(57:57):
So think about the things that we can do to make the person on
the receiving end of our experience better.
And I think if we're all doing that, Lisa, then we make the
workplace better than we found it.
We make the our world's better than we found it.
And I don't expect that all of us will speak all 7 language
languages, but if we all pick one and enhance that, think
(58:18):
about how we make the space better.
If we're all being a little moresensitive, a little more
acknowledging somebody's good work, right?
A little goes a long way. Let me let me ask you, I know
we're we're basically at time, but let me ask you another
question. So I know everybody has, will,
will have, has and will have their their primary, primary,
(58:38):
secondary, tertiary, cross languages.
Is there all of all 7? Is there like 1 foundational 1?
I know this is a hard question because you're like, no, we need
all all seven, we need all seven.
But the answer might be no. But is there like 1 foundational
one that you think this is a good place for people to start
(58:59):
with? I'm going to double down on
sensitivity. I think we can be more
empathetic, especially in the country right now.
We don't all have to see policies and and laws the same,
but we can still treat people with humanity and respect,
right? You know, I may, we may not
(59:21):
somebody listening right now, wemay or may not have voted for
the same person. We may not have the same value
system, right? But what we should all have is
that I don't want to take someone's dignity away from
them. I don't want to intentionally
harm anybody else. So do I need to wear the hat in
this environment? Do I need to wear the shirt in
(59:42):
this environment? Or what's that going to signal
to the people on my team, right,who may not feel the same way I
do about a certain thing? We can all be more sensitive
emotionally and culturally. Last I'll say is I hear a lot of
people say I don't watch the news anymore.
If you're a manager or a leader or a colleague, it's important.
You have to watch it all day long, but find out what's going
(01:00:02):
on because that's going to make sure that you're not saying the
thing in the meeting. That might be, you know, toxic
or, you know, maybe today we don't have the one-on-one or the
performance evaluation because that person just had something
happen in their community. That's on my team.
So what would it look like for me to say?
You know what, Minda, I noticed there's a lot going on and
(01:00:23):
whatever in DC right now. Let's wait to have our
conversation next week. Let's touch base this that's I'm
being more sensitive. I'm being emotionally
intelligent, right? That's costs us nothing, but it
enhances so much trust. Yes.
And you're creating psychological safety, an
experience of psychological safety for them, for your
(01:00:45):
imports. We're speaking 2 languages now,
sensitivity and security. Absolutely, Absolutely.
So Minda, thank you so much. We are at time this conversation
could have gone on a lot longer.There's so much to delve into,
but thank you so much for being here.
This absolutely was a wonderful conversation and much needed.
(01:01:06):
Like I said it, it is, you know,the the seven trust language for
the workplace. But let me tell you, this is
about so much more because trustis foundational to every single
human interaction, regardless ofcontext.
So you know, I'm going to encourage all of you, those of
you who are team replay, go back, listen, listen to and
(01:01:30):
watch the entire thing. There's so much that you're
going to learn and make sure, ofcourse, that you get a copy or a
few copies of Talk to Me Nice byMinda Harts.
And so with that, everyone, thank you so much for joining me
on SpaceX. Hail the podcast.
Make sure you tune in every Tuesday on LinkedIn Live to
(01:01:52):
catch the vibes. And if you can't make the live
show, though, I'd love for you to.
But if you can't, that's no problem.
Subscribe on Spotify and YouTubeto catch the replay.
And if you want to dive deeper into what Minda and I were
discussing today, like I said, get a copy of her book.
It is called Talk to Me Nice. It is available everywhere on
(01:02:13):
all, all major book, book resellers and book retailers.
Of course, also go to minderhearts.com for additional
information and definitely, you know, show some love to your
girl as well. Get a copy of Space to Exhale.
Go to Space to exhalebook.com. It's available like Minders
available everywhere, Barnes andNoble, Amazon, Good Reads
(01:02:35):
everywhere, wherever books are sold.
And if you have already purchased a copy of both books,
let us know what you think, right?
Just hop on to the Internet, right?
Write us a review. Let us know what you think.
And so that's it. Goodbye for now.
And remember, I always sign off by saying this.
(01:02:55):
I want you to, I really want youto remember this.
And I'm going to add one more. You're worthy of rest.
You are worthy of trust. You are worthy of love and you
are worthy of having time and space to exhale.
Thank you. Goodbye and I'll see you next
week.
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