This episode brings together family, fire, and fierce truth-telling. Lisa is joined by none other than her brilliant big sister—author, activist, and anti-racism educator Sharon Hurley Hall—whose powerful book I’m Tired of Racism has become a rallying cry for equity and justice in workplaces around the world.
Together, the sisters exhale and unpack what it really means to navigate the working world while Black: the daily microaggressions, the systemic exclusion, the masks Black people are often forced to wear, and, most importantly, the ways Global Majority people can reclaim our power, protect our peace, and transcend all the weapons that form against us.
This isn’t just a conversation. It’s a reclamation. It is soft sisterhood and righteous rage. It is healing, humor, and a deep dive into the lived realities of Black women in professional spaces—brought to you by two sisters who have walked parallel paths in different corners of the diaspora.
In this soulful, searing show, you will learn:
🖤The emotional, spiritual, and professional toll of working while Black—and how to name it, navigate it, and survive it
🖤How Sharon transformed her pain into purpose through writing and anti-racism work
🖤The importance of unlearning the internalized rules of white supremacy culture in the workplace
🖤What it means to rest, recharge, and resist as Black women professionals
🖤How sisterhood, spirituality, and ancestral wisdom keep us rooted and rising
Whether you’ve ever been the only one in the room, had to shrink yourself to survive, or are simply tired of racism in all its forms, this conversation will leave you feeling seen, soothed, and so ready to exhale.
CREDITS:
👸🏽Host & Executive Producer: Lisa Hurley, author of Space To Exhale and Founder of The Great Exhale
👸🏽Guest: Sharon Hurley Hall, author of I’m Tired of Racism
👸🏽Podcast Producer: Latrice Torres, CEO of LeaderKeysConsulting
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Loved the episode? Write a review! 😊🙏🏾
SHOW NOTES
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Learn more:
https://www.antiracismnewsletter.com/
https://books2read.com/tiredofracism#!
CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST:
🔗 Connect with Lisa on
Learn more:
GET SPACE TO EXHALE:
📚Get your copy of Space To Exhale: A Handbook for Curating a Soft, Centered, Serene Life
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:28):
The Take a Breath. I am Lisa Hurley, activist,
author and community builder. Welcome to Space to Exhale, the
(00:54):
podcast weekly inspiration for self love and soft living.
(01:33):
Music Hello folks, welcome to Space to Exhale the podcast, a
safe, serene sanctuary where we focus on high vibrations,
affirmations, soft living and self-care.
I am your host Lisa Hurley. I'm a three time Anthem
award-winning activist, A Reiki master, and the author of Space
(01:58):
to Exhale, a handbook for curating a soft, centered,
serene life. I'm here to help us all do just
that. Relax, take a breath, say no to
hustle culture, and yes to a life of ease.
My hope and dream is for us all to curate lives that we don't
(02:18):
feel we need a break from today.I am super excited about my
guest. My guest today, so close to my
heart. Let me introduce you to my big
sis, Sharon Hurley Hull. Hello.
(02:39):
Hello. Hi, Lisa, everyone.
I am so delighted to be on your podcast.
Yeah, this is like old times, isn't it?
Wow girl, this is amazing, right?
It is. It's.
Amazing. It feels like a like a a reunion
of the introvert sisters. It does feel a lot like that.
I have to tell you now, do you remember we, we did a, we did an
(03:04):
episode entitled Where's my bookDeal?
And you went and got a book dealand.
I went and got a deal, yes. Talk about manifestation, isn't
it perfect? It is.
It is perfect and it is. I don't want to say it's
unbelievable because it's 100% believable because here we are.
The book is coming out soon. It's amazing.
(03:26):
But before before we get on to that, let me give you your
flowers and let me let the people know about Mrs. Sharon
Hurley Hall. OK, so Sharon Hurley Hall, she
her is an author, educator and anti racism activist.
A former journalist and writer, Sharon is also the author of I'm
(03:49):
Tired of Racism, true Stories ofExisting While Black, and of
Exploring Shadism. In addition, Sharon is the
founder of Sharon's Anti Racism newsletter, where she's on a
mission to fight racism one article at a time.
And yes, there's more. She's also the founder of the
Share Anti Racism membership community in what passes for her
(04:13):
spare time. I can relate.
Sharon provides mentoring for introverted black women and
creates courses to help people share their important stories.
So once again, Sharon, welcome and people, this is who is here
with you today. And let me tell you, if you all
want, Sharon wrote that, that, that bio.
(04:34):
And you can tell when I write a bio for Sharon, We're all, we're
all like that. You know, we, we, we say, we say
the least about ourselves. We don't want to promote and so
on and so forth. And I'm reading this bio and of
course it's all true. You know, I'm also like, well,
what about two master's degrees?What about leading what they're
(04:57):
creating a journalism curriculumfor Coventry University.
You know, just a couple little details were left out.
But you know what y'all can do go to because a couple years
back, Sharon, this is such a full circle moment because
Sharon had her virtual book launch right a few a couple
years ago and I and I moderated it and so I did the intro.
(05:19):
So if you want to know all aboutwho Sharon Hurley Hall really
is, you go on her YouTube and you find that and you watch it,
right? Oh, you're so right, sis.
You are so right. Why are we like that?
Why do we, you know, but I mean,it's it's such a great bion at
the same time, it's like when you know somebody for as long as
you and I have known each other,you're like, wow, what about
(05:41):
this? What about this?
There's this other part. She's amazing at that.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Because I mean, you know, there
are things, you know, there are things in your but that are not
in your bio. There are things that are not in
your bio. You know, your your dance
expertise, for example. I mean, you know many awards
that you have won for many things in many competitions.
(06:03):
I mean, that would be a long list on its own.
I'm not even going to start. Right, you know, all we're all
that's why I said we all do thisand we're all like this.
But I just want people, you know, we're we're each other's
biggest fans. And so I'm always going to be,
you know, team Sharon, those of you who have been on this
journey with me for the past several weeks, the journey of
(06:25):
space to exhale the podcast, youknow that before we get into the
deep work and the talking and the discussion, all of that,
it's called space exhale. And that is what that is exactly
what we do. So before we get into it, yes,
yarn is already ready. Let us take a moment to exhale
together. Let us get grounded and take a
(06:48):
few deep breaths. So close your eyes, relax your
jaw, roll your shoulders a bit and relax them down.
Do a little shimmy, shake right,shake some of that tension off,
and now we're going to inhale through our nose and exhale,
(07:14):
Inhale and exhale one more time.Inhale and exhale.
All right, so now that we're grounded, let's get into it.
(07:41):
And I see some friends that are in the chat already.
Listen, yes, I'm seeing people. I'm seeing people, you know, Joy
Linda. Of course, I'm also seeing a few
people that are, you know, I'm seeing LinkedIn user that's
saying hugs, Lisa and so hugs back.
But of course, right now, what I'm looking at, I have no idea
who you are. But I accept the hugs and I'm
grateful. And indeed.
(08:02):
And and the props for our smilesfrom the other LinkedIn user.
Yes, yes, exactly. So Sharon, when you and I were
discussing, OK, what do we want to dive into on this show, it
really didn't take, you know, wejust immediately both said, ah,
(08:22):
we're going to talk about working while black, right?
And you, you have written your book is I'm tired of Racism,
true stories of existing while Black.
And it obviously is a topic because working while black
obviously is part of existing while black and a topic that is
(08:43):
dear to your heart, it's also dear to mine.
And so your book states I, I, I love the title because it just
states so boldly what many of usdon't want to say out loud.
Or if we say it out loud, we aresilenced for it.
We, you are, you are saying I'm tired of racism.
I'm tired of racism, Girl, you tired.
(09:04):
I tired. And all the people who are on
the right side of history are tired too.
And my question is, can you share a moment from your life or
career when you felt this tiredness, this this career
fatigue, this existential, you know, just just wanting to.
(09:24):
Yeah. When, when, when, when did that
happen? What was that defining moment
for you? Where, where do I even start is
the question. Because there are always.
There have been so many. But if I think it doesn't have
to be just one, give us a coupleof yeah.
I think when I was working in the Uka couple of things, a
couple of things happen in pretty close succession.
(09:47):
The first of them was when I gota promotion at work that came
with a certain pay rise, and they made an excuse not to offer
me the full amount. Now, my white colleagues who had
had a similar promotion got the full amount.
My white colleagues who got the promotion after got the full
amount. But somehow I was only getting
half of it. You know, they had some
(10:10):
spuriously plausible reason for it.
Yeah. You know, spuriously plausible,
but that was that was one of thefirst things.
The second thing which followed after that, I believe was when I
then, so I started looking for ajob because, you know, I stay
where you are and valued, right.And a colleague and I applied
(10:30):
for the same job and, you know, we had compared CVS and so on.
And you know, she said, you know, well, honestly, I, you
know, I don't even know why I'm applying because you are
definitely the more qualified. And, you know, I went in, I saw
the double take. And, you know, at that point, it
was already all over. But I still did.
(10:51):
I did a great interview. We compared notes on the train
back. You know, we were very
civilized. So we went up together.
And so we got a law and we compared notes.
And she said, man, I really madea mess of that interview.
But do you know who got the job offer?
Weren't me. And so it weren't me.
It weren't me. Hey, Stacey Latonya.
(11:14):
Hello. Hello.
Yeah, it wasn't me. And it's like, you know, that is
just it's so wearing. It's so wearing.
It's it's, you know, all the little signs that you can't be
yourself, all the little signs that you are not valued, all the
(11:34):
little signs. And I mean, you know, by the
time I was in that job and I, you know, I was, you know, young
ish, but not that young, right? Late 20s, right?
You had some experience. You definitely had some.
I had some work experience, you know, I had my, I had my
bachelor's. I had lived abroad for a year.
(11:55):
I had, you know, I had all of this.
And it's like, why are you telling me that I am valued
less? Why are you showing me that I am
valued less? Why are you doing that in big
and small ways every day? You know, And so, and, you know,
this continued, this continued even even when I was no longer
(12:18):
working with organizations because, you know, I worked
with, I worked mostly with nonprofits mostly, right?
But I didn't work the first. The story I told you was when I
was working for a corporation, right?
But even when I was working as a, as a freelancer, I remember
early on in my career I was having an e-mail exchange back
and forth. This is before social media,
(12:40):
right? And somehow the guy I was
talking to discovered I was black and and suddenly wanted to
ask how I dare to charge so much.
I don't think it's coincidental that he was from South Africa.
I have to say, I don't think it's coincidental.
I love your delivery. I don't think it was
(13:03):
coincidental. I agree with you on that for
sure. And so and so, I mean, I think
we could all list multiple, those of us racialized as black,
those of us of the global majority, those of us who face
isms in any way. We could all list multiple
(13:24):
attacks on our humanity, right? All list multiple refusals to
see and value us all list. You know numerous examples of
racist abuse because let's not call them microaggressions,
right? Because because and
(13:44):
microaggressions do happen and you and I write about that a
lot. We do.
Yeah. You, you wrote such a an amazing
one of many amazing pieces on itthat I happily as soon as I got
to my chapter where I mentioned micro aggressions, I was like, I
(14:05):
know exactly who I'm going to quote on this.
I don't need to look very far. I'm a goal.
And, and here's a full circle moment for you, you know, you
know, every so often I do a reboot in my newsletter, my
reboot piece this this month, which also links to your space
to exhale page is that very samepiece of microaggressions.
Yeah, it's nothing, Michael, about them, as Linda is pointing
(14:27):
out. Right.
They're they're they're not micro.
And I always I explained him in the book and I have explained in
other places as well the I thinkit was Doctor Darold Wing Sue,
if I get the name wrong, you'll please give me grace.
But I believe that is the personwho certainly has written.
I'm not sure if they coined the term, but they definitely have
(14:49):
written. I liked about it, but they
explain that micro does not meanthat the impact is minus is
minuscule. Micro means it is one-on-one as
opposed to at a macro systemic level.
That's what the micro is referring to.
I know this. But still.
(15:10):
I know I know this, but as language.
People as language people. Micro in almost every other
context means small. It does and so and so subtly.
It tends to minimize it. Minimize.
It does minimize. It does minimize.
Absolutely right. And it I the experience you
(15:30):
shared earlier about not gettingthe promotion and not getting
the pay, the pay increase thoughlike that rings so close to
home. I remember, I think one year it
happened to me in one year. I remember, I remember that, you
know, my, my review started with, well, if anybody on this
(15:53):
team, you of all people deserve to get an increase in a
promotion. And I, and I initially, because
sometimes you take things literally and I, I really
thought it was going in a good direction and then.
There's like you deserve it, butyou're not getting it.
Make that make. Sense Meanwhile somebody you
(16:15):
know of you know 8.5 by Levin Hugh right had recently joined
had recently joined the team andhad said one day oh I'd really
love to be able to get a new apartment but I can't afford it
on my on on my salary. Next thing you know, all of a
(16:37):
sudden out of the normal review cycle, this person is got a
promotion and a pay increase andmoved into a fabulous apartment.
And so when people talk about the effects of racism and the
effects on black people, black and global majorities, people
(16:58):
inability in many cases to create generational wealth,
those are the kinds of instancesthat's where it starts.
It starts by you being the most qualified but not getting the
same pay increase as your less qualified, paler hued
colleagues. It starts by me being the person
who deserves both a promotion and a pay increase, getting
(17:20):
neither but somebody with 0 experience and almost and almost
0 melanin. Right.
Is. There a correlation is there a
correlation between the, you know, the lack of melanin and
the amount of the pay increase you can get?
Listen, it must be exponentially.
It's writing. Something you know, it is, it
(17:42):
has. And I know sometimes one says
correlation is not causation, but sometimes it is.
I'm just saying sometimes correlation is.
Yes, yes. And so, you know, I really when
you, your, your chapter on the working white black effect, I
mean, you know, when we were talking about, you know,
featuring a couple of chapters in the newsletter, I knew that
(18:03):
had to be one of them because itis such a, it's such a prevalent
thing, right? It happens so often.
It happened. You know, the thing that I've
always found interesting is thatI wrote originally because I, as
you know, did a whole section ofmy book on working while black,
(18:24):
and occasionally I add new newsletter pieces to it.
And I wrote about my experiencesin the UK, in the workplace, in
several companies. Every Black person I know that
has read it, that has worked in a place where they are
minoritized, no matter where that country is, has related to
(18:48):
it. Every person of the global
majority who has read it has also related to it.
You know, You know. Because it's it's a real thing.
And what what I find interestingabout your experience is that
you've kind of done it all. You've worked, you know, in
different regions, different continents, different countries,
(19:10):
all the things, right? You know, you are fluent in as a
copy copywriters, writers and copywriters will understand
this. But you're fluent in American
English and you and British English, which in some cases
people might not realize they are two different languages.
So different. So so different.
They're two very different languages.
But but on a, on a serious note,you have this sort of like trans
(19:34):
national, trans global experience, but the constant is
the racism and the microaggressions and the
diminishments and all of that. So what one of my another
question I have for you is, was there beyond what you shared at
the top of the show? Was there something that
happened? Was there a breaking point that
(19:56):
led you to start actually documenting your experiences
publicly? Because.
You and I, you again, you know, we have a podcast that is now
temporarily, we're claiming this, it's temporarily on a for
the past two years. But but side note, but it's
called, it's called the introvert sisters.
So we are both, you know, we're quiet souls, we're quiet, we're
(20:16):
introverted. We do more thinking than
speaking. Podcasts aside, we actually do
more thinking than speaking. And So what led you to go from
thinking about and ruminating about them, mentally processing
these experiences, to publicly speaking and talking about them
and advocating against that kindof experience?
(20:41):
Well, it's, it's, it's interesting when I, when I look
back at the, the history that led me to where I am now, there
are a couple of inflection points.
And one of them actually goes really far back.
Because I'm sure you can also remember, and I know you talk
about some of this in, in your book, You can all you remember
coming to live in Barbados from Trinidad and X and, and
(21:06):
experiencing a different social dynamic, a different kind of
racial politics in terms of the,the, the expectations and social
status of those racialised as white and those racialised as
black. And you know this is going to
say. This is it's so it's so elegant.
I love it. You know, this is not, this is
(21:26):
not to say that I mean, it is still a black majority country.
You can still see it, you can beit, all of those kinds of
things. But there are things hanging on
from colonialism that are still that still have an effect on the
society today. So that's what led me to do my
research that became exploring shadism.
But more recently what happened is, and, and I had also, I think
(21:52):
it had been stirring for a little while because I then look
back and I realised that even before 2020 I had written a
piece, I think I wrote a couple of things around the time that
47 got elected the first time. Right, Enough said about that.
(22:12):
Enough said about. Right.
But anyway, what happened is George Floyd's murder, frankly,
because I felt the soul deep weariness, which is the reason
we need space to exhale, right? I felt the soul deep weariness.
And so I started, you know, I think I wrote a piece called
(22:33):
Wild Black Thoughts on the Assumption of Wrongness.
Yes, I remember that. That's a good one.
Right, right. Which was that, that is
actually, that is the piece thatstarted me on this current
trend, right? This trajectory, because it, it
just, it just brought everythingto the surface.
(22:53):
You know, all the things that wehad experienced, all the things
that we had swallowed, the things that we had tried to
convince ourselves weren't so bad, the things that we had no,
no, that we knew were bad. But, you know, if we took the
time to react to each of them, we would never do anything else
or, you know, all of those things.
And, and so I, I wrote that piece, people responded to it,
(23:17):
and then I realized I had more to say and the floodgates kind
of opened. And so a few months later, I
started the newsletter, which has been going for nearly five
years and now has more than 600 pieces in it.
Right. That is, that is, and
congratulations on that because thank you.
Honestly, nowadays, anything that lasts more than a year or
(23:38):
two, to be honest, it's like it's a it's a miracle and it's
not, it's not any shade on on anybody.
It is, it is, it can be hard. It is difficult.
Doing the kind of work that you do is not easy, even though you
you have an advantage because you have start you, you are a
writer and a language person. So doing a newsletter from and a
(23:59):
trained journalist. And once again, the person who
created a journalism was university, yes.
So you, you have all of that experience and all of that
talent, but it is still hard. Activism is not easy.
Solopreneurship is often not easy.
(24:21):
And so kudos to you for staying the course and keeping it going
for more than five years. You know, enough respect, as we
say about home and also people. I just want to say this right,
something that me and my good Beijing buddy Steve Jones, the
the CEO of POC stock, We say this all the time.
(24:42):
Say it with your checks. You know the phrase say it with
your chest, That's great, but also say it with the checks,
right? In other words, support people
beyond likes and, and, and you know, the likes are wonderful.
The comments are wonderful. We absolutely appreciate them.
You know, all of you that have shown up here for us today, we
are very happy that you are hereand we're not talking about
(25:05):
y'all because y'all are the samepeople that always show up for
us. We don't listen everybody in
this comment section. I know when I go back and I can
actually see people's names, I'mlike, Oh yes, I know this.
Person. This person.
Check. Check.
Check, check, check, check. These people, you know, y'all
always show up for us and so we appreciate that we're talking.
About them? We're grateful.
We appreciate it. We're talking about the other
people who are like, oh, I support, I support you.
(25:29):
I'm working. I appreciate you.
That's wonderful. Where's the tech?
Where's the subscription money? Where's the support?
Because, right, Because I'm justsaying.
I know you get space. How do you get space to exhale
if you're living? Can't a mouse?
You can't. How do you like, how do you get?
How do you get? Yes, Yanker Introvert Sisters
(25:51):
Reloaded. Good to see you in the room.
Yes, yeah. Hi Yanker.
Right. You know, how do you get space
to exhale? How do you get to to rest?
How do you get to recover if you're worried about how to pay
your bills? And you know, it, it, it irks
me. It really it, it irks me.
(26:12):
That more people don't. Sorry, no.
Sorry, you no. No, no, it irks me that more
people don't, you know, again, like you, I'm grateful for all
the people that have stepped up.There is 200 strong, right?
You know, if they were 500 strong, I could focus on the
newsletter at all alone, right. So, you know, there's a,
there's, there's still a gap. There, there is a gap, but I I
(26:35):
just want to say that this mightseem like a digression, but it
actually is not. Because all of this working
while black is not just about corporate spaces, although
that's a lot of it. It is about this experience that
a lot of black people, and especially black women, are
expected to work for free and bemammies to the entire universe
(26:57):
and to have everybody. I posted on that too.
I'm just saying, right? I am not your mammy, I am not
your Saviour. Run me that check.
When is the check? You know I'm so I see you in
the. Comments We ain't got nothing
but rich and rested. Rich and rested.
Exactly. That is, that is, that is
(27:19):
Yinka's trademark and vibe. And yeah, that is, that is just
perfect, right? Yeah, that is where we need to
be. And and you know how that is
space. Exhale that, Richard that.
Is space exhale? And here's the thing, we do this
work because we are called to itbecause we believe it is
meaningful, because because it needs to be done and all of that
(27:41):
remains true. But it I there is nothing in the
contract that says that you haveto be running on fumes, right?
While you were doing this work. Yeah, right.
You can have impact without exhaustion.
That's my watchword this year, right?
What say OK, hold on, rewind, say that one more thing.
Impact without exhaustion, yes, right.
(28:04):
I'm a fan. I love that.
I love that. Let me just say another thing.
Let me just say another thing because again, people like to to
think, I understand why it's easy to think of working wild
black or existing wild black within a few narrow silos or or
confines, but all of it ties to racism.
(28:25):
It ties to white supremacy culture, culture.
And one of the most recent tragic examples of this is
there's a minimally melanated woman out there who recently, to
the best of my recollection, called a young black child the N
(28:45):
word with the hard, ER, right, the hard one.
I mean, even even without that, it would be, it would be bad,
don't get me wrong, but just straight out call him a, you
know what? And what has happened is that
this person who was harmed, a young black child, has raised in
the space of a few days hundredsof thousands of dollars because
(29:09):
she is not upset because she sheis at the FO part of FAFO and
she right. She is upset because she is
upset because she was called to account for the harm that she
did. But, you know, it is, it is so,
it is so wearing for those of usdoing the work when somebody
(29:31):
that does that amount of harm can raise hundreds of thousands
of dollars and the rest of us are out here saying, OK, but you
know. Yeah, because could we?
Get 10s of thousands even. Could we just get, you know, can
we, you know, can, can somebody,can somebody support the work
that we're doing? Can somebody support, you know,
(29:52):
compensate the education that wehave been giving year in, year
out? And I mean, we're not the only
ones. I mean, there are people that
have been doing this for 10, for15 years and they still are
having the same problem. I like what is on the screen
there, the terrible tree of white supremacy, capitalism and
patriarchy. And so, you know, who is that
the, you know, who loses out in that?
(30:13):
Black women. Black women, right?
Yeah, that's. The need for.
Space to exhale. Did I catch that right?
Yes, you did. Yes, you did.
Yes, you did. Right, hence the the need for
for SpaceX Hale. And so, OK, we've been talking
about working well Black. And you know, those of you again
(30:34):
who have been tuning in for the past few episodes know that I
asked all of my guests to choosean excerpt from SpaceX Hale that
they would like me to read for them.
And unsurprisingly so, this is going to be a bit of a meta
experience. I don't know how else to
describe it, but it's an excerptof my book that appeared in
Sharon's newsletter. I love it.
(30:58):
Right. So because again, her her book
is called I'm Tired of Racism, true stories of existing while
black and I wrote a chapter called Working while Black.
And so she featured it in her newsletter.
And side note on that too, that is what actual support looks
like, right? She has a newsletter.
(31:19):
Her sister is, you know, launching a book.
The number of texts I have just gotten from Sharon randomly,
Hey, I'm going to feature you inthe newsletter this month.
Hey, can you send me a banner? I'm going to put it on my
website. Hey, you know, it's always a
hey, how here's how I'm going tosupport you.
And so just putting that out there as well that there are
ways to do this for each other. Network across, right, Network
(31:44):
across. My thing is, you know, I have
100,000 plus followers. Anytime I see somebody doing
something I, you know, I'm like,OK, I'm a repost it.
I will, you know, promote it as much as I can within my
community. And that is how it works.
But now back to the matter at hand.
So I'm going to read an excerpt of an excerpt of an excerpt.
(32:07):
And so it actually is going to start with the intro that Sharon
wrote on her newsletter. So if it sounds a bit different
that it right, So it's from thisis the excerpt from an excerpt
from Space to Exhale that appeared in Sharon's anti racism
newsletter. So here goes.
(32:29):
Hello friends. This is the second excerpt from
Space to Exhale by Lisa Hurley. If you missed it, check out the
first one. Expect it to excel.
This excerpt talks about a common experience for Black
women in the workplace. Read on for details of both the
Working While Black effect and how anti racism advocates and
(32:50):
accomplices can take steps to encounter it.
Working while Black refers to the cluster of daily
diminishments, psychologically harmful behaviours and
emotionally taxing experiences that Black people, especially
Black women, encounter in white majority workplaces.
(33:12):
Ask any black person, no matter the variables career wise, the
constant is that they have experienced some or all of the
12 elements that comprise what Ihave termed the working Wild
Black effect. WWBE.
The WWBE is a syndrome composed of an interconnected web of
(33:35):
behaviors and occurrences. It includes simultaneously being
invisible and hyper visible, overworked and under resourced,
last hired but first fired, overcredentialed but under promoted.
Managing but not viewed as management material.
(33:55):
Being perceived as excessive yetinadequate.
It also includes experiences such as being torn, policed,
unsponsored, and of course, being called angry or aggressive
just because our faces are at rest.
Let me give you a few more examples of the WWBE, because my
impression is that most minimally melanated people have
(34:18):
no idea how much of an additional psychological burden
Black people bear at work in thelives of public figures.
The WWBE looks like former Vice President Kamala Harris, with
her stellar reputation, experience, credentials,
eloquence, policies, policies, and actual plans, losing the
(34:42):
2024 election to an unqualified felon who should never have been
allowed to run in the first place.
Just saying. The working wild black effect
also looks like my forever FLOTUS Michelle Obama being
criticized about her arms and myforever POTUS Barack Obama being
(35:04):
criticized about wearing a tan suit.
It looks like actress Taraji P Henson weeping because even
though she is so tenured in her acting career, she still has to
fight for decent roles and equitable pay.
Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson being publicly
flayed for days during her SCOTUS confirmation hearing.
(35:28):
Remember that one tear? It still breaks my heart.
Dot doctor Bonnie Candia Bailey,a former vice president of
Student Affairs at Lincoln University of Missouri, being
bullied and unsupported to such a degree that she ended her own
life in order to get some relief.
(35:49):
May she rest in peace. Those of us who are not so
visible also have to navigate the treacherous White Majority
waters. Just because the daily race
related paper cuts are not occurring in public doesn't mean
they're not occurring at all. Trust me, they are.
The WWBE comprises pay inequity,The broken rung and the glass
(36:13):
Cliff. The pet to threat phenomenon,
The black girl boss paradox being the only being the
representative code switching. Hear discrimination,
microaggressions, misogynoir, intersectionality, and the
superwoman schema. A note from Sharon.
There are full details of how these phenomena show up in the
(36:35):
book. So you know what to do.
So what now? Because that's a lot, right?
Imagine experiencing all of the above multiple times a day for
decades. Do you understand now why black
women are tired? Why we don't feel
psychologically safe? Why we don't trust corporate
(36:56):
spaces? This is why so many of us are
choosing self-employment over the daily professional struggle.
For my non black readers, I've shared all this to help educate
you about what most of your Black colleagues are going
through, with the hope that yourempathy and ethics will stir you
to do better. Be the person you proclaim
(37:19):
yourself to be. If you had time to post a Black
square and write a performative caption during the racial
reckoning of 2020, then you havetime to interrupt bias when you
see it. Do what you can to help your
Black colleagues breathe a little easier.
There are so many small but impactful actions you can take
(37:41):
as an individual. If you have privilege, use it
for good. Interrupt bias and
microaggressions in the moment. Publicly fight for pay equity
for the Black people on your team.
Let us end the trend of Black people being the highest
qualified and lowest paid. Pronounce people's names
correctly. If you can pronounce
(38:03):
Tchaikovsky, onomatopoeia, or schadenfreude, you can pronounce
our names. Be a good human.
Most of us know what it's like, what it feels like to be
bullied, so let's not bully others.
Let the golden rule obtain. If you don't want it for
yourself, don't inflict it on others.
(38:23):
For organizations, if you are listed as one of the best places
to work, my question is best forwhom?
If you purport to have created apsychologically safe culture, my
question is safe for home because despite your
proclamations, Black people, particularly Black women, do not
feel safe at work. As a corporate entity, you have
(38:47):
the power and means to make positive changes at scale.
I don't have all the answers, but I do have some suggestions
for how you can provide space toexhale for your global majority
employees. Prioritize and fund DEI.
Prioritize psychological safety.Prioritize community and safe
spaces. DE prioritize performativity.
(39:09):
For my black readers, I have shared all this to let you know
that you are not alone and what you're going through is not a
figment of your imagination. The system, alas, is operating
as designed. I've also shared this to
hopefully inspire some self reflection given that this is
how things are. How do you choose to proceed
(39:32):
with your career? What do you want for yourself?
How are you going to curate your?
How are you going to curate yourcareer to minimize harm and
maximize health? How will you createspace to
exhale in your work life? You don't need to answer these
questions now, but at least start thinking about them in the
(39:54):
next chapter, curating your career.
We will explore them more deeplynow.
Another note from Sharon. That's the end of our 2nd and
final excerpt from Space to Exhale.
As you know, my articles on working while black were some of
the earliest ones in this newsletter, so this excerpt has
particular resonance. What stood out to you and what
(40:16):
action will you take as a result?
Thanks for reading, Sharon. So.
That's it where you might need to end the episode now because
we're not What a. Moment.
We're not going to, but yeah, so.
So when you first read it, when I when I sent you a copy of the
(40:40):
book, and because you didn't know what you know, you need a
general theme. But I don't think you realize I
was going to write a chapter that was that rough.
I did not realize that that chapter was going to be in it.
Yeah. I, you know, because I obviously
I know about all your other workwith your community and, you
know, all the other things that you talk about about soft living
(41:01):
and, you know, rest and mental health and all of those kinds of
things. I'm sorry, I was reading.
Yeah, because comment. Listen, you need some edge
control girl like. Yeah.
And it's, you know, so I did notknow that was going to be in it,
(41:23):
but it was so powerful. And I'm so particularly
powerful, as I said in my introduction, as as as, as the
reson deck for your book and foryour community, right.
The reason why we need those spaces, the reason why Yinka,
for example, has written Rested as a trademark, right?
(41:46):
Because it's all about the reason why I talk about impact
without exhaustion, right? It's all I mean, is it any
coincidence that all three of usand many others are having the
same thought at the same time? That the way that we have been
living is unsustainable? Yes, especially for us as Black
women, Yes. I mean, capitalism, patriarchy,
(42:09):
colonialism will do that anyway.I mean, it's not really helping
anyone. But, you know, we definitely
drew the short straw. For sure, for sure.
Yeah. And so one of the sorry, go
ahead. No, no, no.
And so I think that, you know, you're there in the middle of
all the, you know, the lovely stories and the memoir and all
(42:31):
this kind of thing. And it's like bam.
Apricot. Yeah, this.
Oh, OK then. So This is why we need this
book. This is why we need this book.
It's accountability because because I'm like, I'm like, I am
not going to put anything out there that you know, I'm not
going to. All Lives Matter, my own book.
(42:51):
No. I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to All Lives Matter, my own book.
I'm going to tell the truth as Iknow and I have experienced it.
And that is what I was determined to do and that is
what I did. And I want to make sure not only
to describe some of the experiences.
And that is important because some people genuinely, by some
(43:13):
strange means, don't know, or sothey claim, right.
So I want to describe, but I also wanted to to recommend.
You know, I'm a strong believer in verbs.
So here's the issue. Here's what we're going through.
I want to make black people, andespecially Black women feel seen
and heard and understood and held right.
(43:35):
I want all of this to happen andI want the people, the powers
that be, to do better. And This is why our work is In
Sync, because, you know, for anybody that has been reading
the newsletter for a long time, you will notice that I, I
shifted gears a little bit, tinybit from just, you know, at
(43:56):
first I was documenting. But what you will often find is
that now I will say, OK, So whatare you going to do with this?
Here's an action you can take, you know, at least reflect on
this, right, so that you're moving and also, you know, that
that idea of just, you know, making the people who share our
(44:18):
identity feel seen and making those who don't be aware and
have actions that they can take and I think and.
Accountable. And accountable.
And I think your book also does that really, really well.
I mean, yes, it is a soft space with hard truths.
It's what it is. I guess I'm gonna have to
(44:39):
rewrite my copy. I listen.
I love, I love Wordsmith. Soft space with hard truths.
What? Yes, I love that.
Yes. You can use it.
I'm sorry. Yes, soft space with hard
truths, right? Because you don't just say, you
(45:01):
know, it's not, it's not throughthrough, if you know what I
mean. It is very, it is very, it is
very focused. It, it takes people on a journey
and it explains the why that we,you know, the why, the reasons
that we need what we need. And then it gives people stuff
to do. Yeah, right.
It gives people stuff to help them start that healing process
(45:22):
which is so necessary. I, I remember being interviewed
once a couple years back and someone, you know, the
interviewer asked, you know, usual question Will, what can
white people do to, you know, listen and learn more?
And I was like, I'm like, look, we are centuries in at this
(45:44):
point, right? We're centuries in.
We're even if you want to say decades in, right, Let's say
we're decades in. Listening and learning needs to
be a constant. I'm not saying it doesn't, but
what about what about where's the action where the verbs?
Because because if all people dois listen, I'm going to listen
(46:05):
and I'm going to reflect and. I like that voice.
Are you going to reflect my paycheck right.
Are you going to reflect, you know my promotion?
Are you going to reflect actually supporting my business?
Are you going to reflect, Stop no longer redlining us, whether
it comes to housing or in our inour careers, because corporate
(46:28):
and career redlining is a real thing, right?
So while you're reflecting, are you changing that stuff too?
Yes. Are you going for us?
Are you, are you going to, are you going to reflect stealing
stuff from the culture and passing it off as your own?
Are you going to reflect that, right?
Calling, calling AAVE, you know what is it?
(46:48):
Gen. Z, whatever that is.
I'm like, yeah, as a linguist, Isay, no, that is not the.
Credit where it is, credit whereit is due and compensate also
where it is due. Yes, credit and compensation
where it is due and do something, take action.
Take action. That's it.
(47:09):
Yes, we listen. Yes, we.
Learn. I listen and learn all the time.
1 of introvert. Listening and learning is my
sweet spot, but that is not where it stops.
That's where it starts. Yeah, right.
You you get to is action accountability right?
And, and, and how are you, how are you contributing as well?
And when I look at you and you know, your, your life in, in
(47:34):
terms of your, your professionallife and, and your life as a, as
a human being, as an introvert and so on, I can, I can see, I
remember once you asking me somewhat you're like.
How did I even become an activist?
Like you're, you're, you're like, when did this happen?
I said, Sharon, you know, you'vealways been this person a right,
(47:56):
Even though I, I might have known it because, you know, I
grew up, You know, you're, you're your mind is here, right?
So we, we know one another, right?
But also, our parents were the original, you know, the fraud,
the flaw. Power.
Beautiful power and all of that.So you, you were raised around
that. You were raised in a black
(48:17):
majority country, right? Albeit having been born, you
were born in the UK, which I don't understand why that still
makes people glitch. Every time I tell somebody that
you're British, like they pause.Like if I've said something
wrong, like I don't know where my own sister was born.
But side note. Well, yes girl.
Well, you know, they people be questioning.
Let's not go there. Let's not even go there.
(48:38):
Let's not even go there. Let's not even go there.
But yeah, no, I see. Part of what I see is you're
having moved from a lot of processing and a lot of
thinking. And you were always writing in
your notebooks, in your whereveryou were always writing, right?
Not necessarily publicly, but you moved from the writing
(48:58):
privately to the writing publicly.
And like you said, you move fromdescription to in some cases
prescription. Like here's what you need to do
because sometimes we don't need to tell people that.
And so you as a global majority person, as a black woman, you
have done that. Many of us have done that.
(49:18):
And all we're asking is that others do the same.
You cannot just stay in the listening and learning.
And yeah, like, like Janka says,thoughts and prayers, right?
You can't stay. Thoughts and prayers are lovely.
I'm a I'm a prayer warrior. I believe in a good prayer.
But faith without works is dead.You need the faith and you need
(49:42):
the works. You need both.
It's an equation, right? You take off 1/2, the equation
is going to fall to one side. It's going to topple.
You need both faith and works. And so that is what we are
asking to, to not even asking because that's not even the
energy I want to put out there. But that is that is the
requirement. No, no, no.
(50:02):
At this point, at this point, we're not asking.
We're, we're, we're saying, we are stating explicitly that you
have to take action. You have to take action.
And you know, for, for those people that say, oh, but but
what can I do? And you worry about getting it
wrong. It is better to do something and
get it wrong than to do nothing.It is better to do something,
(50:24):
get it wrong, and sincerely apologize and repair the harm
than to do nothing. Yeah, yeah.
If you you know if you leave everything to the next person,
nothing is going to change. Say it one more time.
If you leave everything to the next person, nothing is going to
change. Right.
(50:45):
And and that actually is something I'm so happy you said
that. That's something I mentioned in
the book as well. Don't.
And actually I think, I think I was speaking to corporations at
that point, but it was like, oh,wrong.
What other companies are doing. You set the rules and decide the
culture and establish that and implement it for your
(51:07):
organization and for your team and for your department.
Don't look around how other people are doing and say, well,
they're not doing it, so I don'tneed to know.
You do. Just do the right thing, do the
right thing. If you know that there's a
person, you know, like in that story that you shared with us at
the top of the show, sis, when you're like, OK, well, you're
the most qualified person, but you did not get the the
(51:30):
promotion and the pay increase and so forth.
Those are the cases in which people should intervene,
frankly, right. Don't know that you are you, you
know, barely well, you know, letme, let me hold my tongue.
But just three people, girl. I had to pull it back.
I had to pull it back. Breathe.
(51:53):
Breathe, breathe. This gets me so heated because
we've been dealing with it for too long and it seems like if we
just keep going and. I know.
I know you. Yeah.
You have had it too. You have.
You have. I mean, tell me if I'm talking
out of turn, right. But you have been in spaces
where there are 8 by 5 by 11 people who are turning up late
(52:15):
and leaving early and somehow get the promotion.
Yeah, and. While they come up with 10
reasons why you cannot have it even though you have done big
corporate launches. Yeah.
Anyway, yeah, still mad about that.
It is, it is. Thank you, thank you.
I appreciate. I appreciate you being mad on my
(52:37):
behalf because that is support. And so one of the isms that we
have sort of skirted around, butnot addressed directly is
professionalism, right? Which is so often basically
weaponized against black people.So how given everything that
(52:58):
we've discussed, given where we are, like, is there any way to
reclaim professionalism? Is it something that we want to
reclaim? Is it something that we want to
redefine? You know, these are some
thoughts I have SO. I, I, I think that we probably
need to redefine it. And the reason I say that is
because the things that are deemed most professional are all
(53:19):
bound up with white supremacy culture, right?
And so that is not helping anybody.
So we need to really rethink what is the stuff that really
matters, you know, can you do the job that you were hired for?
Do you have some good ideas? You know, do can you contribute
(53:39):
them in whatever way you can, Which does not mean that you
have to stand up and present at a meeting.
It could be an e-mail. It could be in a chat on a Zoom
call, right? You know it really.
You know the things that don't matter, like you know the things
that don't matter, the things they often concentrate on, like
what is your hair like? Are you wearing a head wrap?
(54:01):
Are you wearing? Are you, are you performing?
Femininity is how I think of it as well.
Girl. Right, right now, that is a big
one for me, right? A number of places that I have
been in where it's like they want you to wear heels and a
skirt and this and jewelry and makeup and all this kind of
thing. But you know, this is not who I
am. Listen.
(54:22):
Never, never have been. Never has been.
Does it affect my ability to do the job right?
You know, are are you forcing people to put on a performance
in the name of professionalism? Because if you are, then your
notion of professionalism needs to change.
If you are in a, in a job setting, a corporate setting, a
(54:44):
work setting, what matters is your ability to learn or do the
job depending on where you are in your career, right?
What matters is your ability to,to contribute.
But when I say contribute, I don't mean work yourself to the
bone. I don't mean stay late and come
(55:05):
in early. I don't mean any of those
things, you know, I don't mean be on a plantation.
Basically, let me, let me be plain.
I do not mean being on a corporate plantation and being
treated to soot. Right, I don't mean to laugh,
but. That is another extraction.
That is the next thing to enslavement, right?
It really is. It really?
(55:27):
It really is. It's like, oh, you know, if you
leave before, you know your date, work day is 9:00 to 5:00.
But if you leave before 6 and you don't know in at 8:30, all
of a sudden that's a problem. You know they're not paying you
no extra, mind you, but. They're not paying you.
No, man. There's a name for that.
Yeah, and that is supposed to beillegal, right?
That is supposed to be illegal. I don't see why corporations get
(55:49):
a free pass, right? I don't seem like corporations.
No, they should not. And you know, and then you end
up with people who are stressed,you end up with people who are
unhealthy, you end up with people who have all kinds of
illnesses. So we definitely to rethink and
redefine what we consider professionalism.
(56:09):
You know, what is it that actually needs to happen within
the context of a workplace? Can the person that is doing the
job deliver that? Right.
Does it matter what time they dothe work, whether they're in the
office, whether they have the perfect pair of heels, whether
they're made-up to the nines, whether they're wearing
jewellery, you know, whether they, you know, should it matter
(56:33):
whether they have piercings and tattoos and whatever?
Should it matter whether they'rewearing a head wrap?
Right. Of all those things that I've
listed, there's only one of those things that actually
matters, and that is what professionalism should be about,
treating people with respect anddoing the job.
(56:53):
Amen. Two things, two things, two
things, right? Not doing harm to your
colleagues and doing the job. I mean, Amen to that.
Amen to that. Oh Janker said.
Bye, Janko. We'll see you next time.
Nice to see you, Janko. Thanks for swinging through.
I have one last question before we start to wrap up because and
(57:16):
I know we're running a bit over,you know per usual.
I knew this was going to happen.I knew it was.
Going to happen. We already knew, right?
And so the show is, you know, the book is space exhale.
The show is space exhale. So I have to ask you, we're
talking about professionalism and I believe in life work
balance, not work life balance because I think life comes
(57:37):
first. So it feels, it often feels like
the world is trying to suffocateus right knees, knees on our
necks in various ways. And so where have you been able
to find space to exhale or wherehave you been able?
(57:57):
How have you been able to createspace to exhale for
yourself? I, I, I agree with one of the
things, I think you said it somewhere in your book, it has
to be intentional. You do have to create it because
the world out there doesn't wantyou to create it.
The world out there, especially if you're a black woman, you
know, wants the mammy wants the saviour or wants the person that
(58:19):
they can pile onto. And so you, it's up to you to
say, Oh, I'm blocking out some time in my calendar for me or I
am taking a vacation and I'm no,I will not have my phone on or
whatever. I started about two years ago
now. I'm not as good at doing it, but
the starting point was once 1/4.I block out a week where I take
(58:43):
no meetings. Oh.
I love that. Yeah, right.
I have I have tented supposedly a no call day once a week
doesn't quite work out like thatbecause there there are a couple
of things that happen once a month on that day that I do want
to attend, but it's my choice, right?
But nobody can book a call with me on that day, right?
(59:03):
I break up the week. It's the middle of it's the
middle of the week, right? And I have got very good now at
saying, oh, you know, this thingis coming up.
Let me block out that time on mycalendar, right.
So you know, the first step is not allowing people to book you
when you don't want to be booked.
Boundaries, boundaries. Boundaries, boundaries.
And then, you know, giving yourself time off making
(59:26):
considering what is really important, considering what is
really important, what often is important is family with, you
know, time with family, time with friends, time with
yourself. If you're introvert, right?
I this year I put a 30 minute break in my, in my work day for
me to be with myself. I don't end up taking it every
(59:48):
day, but I tell you, I've taken a hell of a lot more of them
than before. I put it in my calendar, right?
I have it on my actually have iton my habit tracker so I can
check how many days a week I do it right and yeah, just.
Giving yourself space. Yeah, giving yourself space and
time because type time and type learns and translates to space.
(01:00:11):
And learning not to feel guilty about it, right?
Learning to put myself first in that way.
I mean, a really good example isas you've known so many people
watching. I had eye surgery in May and I
talked to the people in my community and I and, you know,
my peer mentors stepped in and they ran the two meetings for
that month, right, right. I actually attended the second
(01:00:34):
one, but I was not in charge of the meeting.
But I I didn't attend the first one.
Life. You know, I did a little bit of
pre scheduling, right? Not at my usual cadence when I'm
here. You know, 222 social media posts
a week when people didn't even realize I was gone, right?
And and I did not actually replyto anything for two weeks, 2
(01:00:55):
full weeks. Oh my gosh, that must have been
heaven. It was.
That's how it. Was it was, it was.
And you know, I went away earlier this year and I turned
off my most of my notifications and I have not turned on, but
most of them have not come back on, right?
So I actually did you realize, you realized how beautiful the
(01:01:16):
lack of noise is? It's not used.
To us, though. This is not news to us.
I mean we, we are both readers. We always loved a quiet space
where we could sit with our book.
This is this has been from time.Yes, and so.
In a in a sense, you know, it's recreating those spaces for
yourself and being intentional about it, I think.
(01:01:37):
And yeah. And it's hard work because
you're fighting decades of programming, you're fighting the
world out there trying to draw you in.
You know you're on vacation, butcan you just, you're not
available today, but can you just?
And then you have to learn to say no.
You have to learn to say no. Can you just, can you just wait
until I come back? You know, right?
(01:01:59):
Yeah, exactly. Can you just not not be
unreasonable and leave me alone?Can you not desecrate my alone
time? Exactly.
Exactly. Oh my God, sis, we could talk.
We could talk like this for hours and hours.
But you know, we're for sure just over the hour mark.
So I'll bring the episode to a close.
(01:02:20):
But before I do that, you know, every episode I share an
affirmation. This episode I actually have two
for the people. So the first one is I am
navigating corporate spaces withease, safety and success, right?
I will, I will say it two more times.
(01:02:41):
Y'all can repeat it when you want to.
I am navigating corporate spaceswith ease, safety and success.
I am navigating corporate spaceswith ease, safety and success.
And the second one, I think you're going to love sis.
(01:03:04):
I am always divinely protected. The weapons may form, but they
will never prosper. Amen.
I am always divinely protected. The weapons may form, but they
will never prosper. I am always divinely protected.
The weapons may form, but they will never prosper.
(01:03:27):
Amen and Hallelujah and. So it is and so it is and.
So it is as she and so says. Thank you for being here, this
is amazing, right? Amazing.
My gosh. Best, best conversation ever.
Best conversation ever. And so thank you and thanks to
(01:03:48):
all of you for joining me on space to exhale the podcast
TuneIn every Tuesday live on LinkedIn to catch the vibes.
Can't make the live show? No problem.
Subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and YouTube to catch the
replay. And if you want to dive deeper
into what we discussed today, besure to subscribe to Sharon's
(01:04:12):
Anti Racism, Sharon's Anti Racism newsletter.
And also be sure to get a copy of my book, Space to Exhale,
available at Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Marcus Books, Widely
Publishing, and wherever books are sold.
To stay in touch, follow me on LinkedIn and check out my
website, spacedirecthailbook.comfor updates about all the soft
(01:04:36):
life shenanigans now, since nextnext week's episode will fall on
my publication day, right? Mark your calendars for two very
special events. The first event is I'll be
hosting a virtual launch celebration on Tuesday, June
17th at our usual Showtime of 12noon Eastern on LinkedIn.
(01:05:01):
I will be joined once again by my amazing sister, Sharon Hurley
Hall as well as Alexis Mobley, Liku Ahmadi, Latonya Davis and
Ilona Washington. And thanks, thanks ladies for
agreeing to be my guest on that show.
I'm looking forward to next weekand then on Saturday, June 21 I
(01:05:22):
will be hosting a fabulous high vibrational in person book lot
celebration which is sponsored by POC Stock, The Great Exhale
Leader, Keys Consulting, Sharon's Anti Racism newsletter
and the Starbucks Green Brook store #21251 managed by Jessica
Acevedo. Tickets are on sale now and
(01:05:45):
seats are limited, so make sure you get yours.
Prices start at just $25, which is less than the cost of the
book, and your ticket also gets you a free professional headshot
of $500 value courtesy of my premier sponsor, Pop Stock.
So go to spacedirecthailbook.comright now to secure your seat.
(01:06:06):
I am looking forward to sharing space and time with all of you
next week when my sisters and I gather to celebrate Pub Day.
So, so excited, so excited. So everyone, thanks again.
Goodbye for now and remember youare worthy of rest, you are
(01:06:28):
worthy of love, and you are worthy of having time and space
to exhale. Bye.
See you next week.
The Take a Breath. I am Lisa Hurley, activist,
author and community builder. Welcome to Space to Exhale, the
(00:54):
podcast weekly inspiration for self love and soft living.
(01:33):
Music Hello folks, welcome to Space to Exhale the podcast, a
safe, serene sanctuary where we focus on high vibrations,
affirmations, soft living and self-care.
I am your host Lisa Hurley. I'm a three time Anthem
award-winning activist, A Reiki master, and the author of Space
(01:58):
to Exhale, a handbook for curating a soft, centered,
serene life. I'm here to help us all do just
that. Relax, take a breath, say no to
hustle culture, and yes to a life of ease.
My hope and dream is for us all to curate lives that we don't
(02:18):
feel we need a break from today.I am super excited about my
guest. My guest today, so close to my
heart. Let me introduce you to my big
sis, Sharon Hurley Hull. Hello.
(02:39):
Hello. Hi, Lisa, everyone.
I am so delighted to be on your podcast.
Yeah, this is like old times, isn't it?
Wow girl, this is amazing, right?
It is. It's.
Amazing. It feels like a like a a reunion
of the introvert sisters. It does feel a lot like that.
I have to tell you now, do you remember we, we did a, we did an
(03:04):
episode entitled Where's my bookDeal?
And you went and got a book dealand.
I went and got a deal, yes. Talk about manifestation, isn't
it perfect? It is.
It is perfect and it is. I don't want to say it's
unbelievable because it's 100% believable because here we are.
The book is coming out soon. It's amazing.
(03:26):
But before before we get on to that, let me give you your
flowers and let me let the people know about Mrs. Sharon
Hurley Hall. OK, so Sharon Hurley Hall, she
her is an author, educator and anti racism activist.
A former journalist and writer, Sharon is also the author of I'm
(03:49):
Tired of Racism, true Stories ofExisting While Black, and of
Exploring Shadism. In addition, Sharon is the
founder of Sharon's Anti Racism newsletter, where she's on a
mission to fight racism one article at a time.
And yes, there's more. She's also the founder of the
Share Anti Racism membership community in what passes for her
(04:13):
spare time. I can relate.
Sharon provides mentoring for introverted black women and
creates courses to help people share their important stories.
So once again, Sharon, welcome and people, this is who is here
with you today. And let me tell you, if you all
want, Sharon wrote that, that, that bio.
(04:34):
And you can tell when I write a bio for Sharon, We're all, we're
all like that. You know, we, we, we say, we say
the least about ourselves. We don't want to promote and so
on and so forth. And I'm reading this bio and of
course it's all true. You know, I'm also like, well,
what about two master's degrees?What about leading what they're
(04:57):
creating a journalism curriculumfor Coventry University.
You know, just a couple little details were left out.
But you know what y'all can do go to because a couple years
back, Sharon, this is such a full circle moment because
Sharon had her virtual book launch right a few a couple
years ago and I and I moderated it and so I did the intro.
(05:19):
So if you want to know all aboutwho Sharon Hurley Hall really
is, you go on her YouTube and you find that and you watch it,
right? Oh, you're so right, sis.
You are so right. Why are we like that?
Why do we, you know, but I mean,it's it's such a great bion at
the same time, it's like when you know somebody for as long as
you and I have known each other,you're like, wow, what about
(05:41):
this? What about this?
There's this other part. She's amazing at that.
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Because I mean, you know, there
are things, you know, there are things in your but that are not
in your bio. There are things that are not in
your bio. You know, your your dance
expertise, for example. I mean, you know many awards
that you have won for many things in many competitions.
(06:03):
I mean, that would be a long list on its own.
I'm not even going to start. Right, you know, all we're all
that's why I said we all do thisand we're all like this.
But I just want people, you know, we're we're each other's
biggest fans. And so I'm always going to be,
you know, team Sharon, those of you who have been on this
journey with me for the past several weeks, the journey of
(06:25):
space to exhale the podcast, youknow that before we get into the
deep work and the talking and the discussion, all of that,
it's called space exhale. And that is what that is exactly
what we do. So before we get into it, yes,
yarn is already ready. Let us take a moment to exhale
together. Let us get grounded and take a
(06:48):
few deep breaths. So close your eyes, relax your
jaw, roll your shoulders a bit and relax them down.
Do a little shimmy, shake right,shake some of that tension off,
and now we're going to inhale through our nose and exhale,
(07:14):
Inhale and exhale one more time.Inhale and exhale.
All right, so now that we're grounded, let's get into it.
(07:41):
And I see some friends that are in the chat already.
Listen, yes, I'm seeing people. I'm seeing people, you know, Joy
Linda. Of course, I'm also seeing a few
people that are, you know, I'm seeing LinkedIn user that's
saying hugs, Lisa and so hugs back.
But of course, right now, what I'm looking at, I have no idea
who you are. But I accept the hugs and I'm
grateful. And indeed.
(08:02):
And and the props for our smilesfrom the other LinkedIn user.
Yes, yes, exactly. So Sharon, when you and I were
discussing, OK, what do we want to dive into on this show, it
really didn't take, you know, wejust immediately both said, ah,
(08:22):
we're going to talk about working while black, right?
And you, you have written your book is I'm tired of Racism,
true stories of existing while Black.
And it obviously is a topic because working while black
obviously is part of existing while black and a topic that is
(08:43):
dear to your heart, it's also dear to mine.
And so your book states I, I, I love the title because it just
states so boldly what many of usdon't want to say out loud.
Or if we say it out loud, we aresilenced for it.
We, you are, you are saying I'm tired of racism.
I'm tired of racism, Girl, you tired.
(09:04):
I tired. And all the people who are on
the right side of history are tired too.
And my question is, can you share a moment from your life or
career when you felt this tiredness, this this career
fatigue, this existential, you know, just just wanting to.
(09:24):
Yeah. When, when, when, when did that
happen? What was that defining moment
for you? Where, where do I even start is
the question. Because there are always.
There have been so many. But if I think it doesn't have
to be just one, give us a coupleof yeah.
I think when I was working in the Uka couple of things, a
couple of things happen in pretty close succession.
(09:47):
The first of them was when I gota promotion at work that came
with a certain pay rise, and they made an excuse not to offer
me the full amount. Now, my white colleagues who had
had a similar promotion got the full amount.
My white colleagues who got the promotion after got the full
amount. But somehow I was only getting
half of it. You know, they had some
(10:10):
spuriously plausible reason for it.
Yeah. You know, spuriously plausible,
but that was that was one of thefirst things.
The second thing which followed after that, I believe was when I
then, so I started looking for ajob because, you know, I stay
where you are and valued, right.And a colleague and I applied
(10:30):
for the same job and, you know, we had compared CVS and so on.
And you know, she said, you know, well, honestly, I, you
know, I don't even know why I'm applying because you are
definitely the more qualified. And, you know, I went in, I saw
the double take. And, you know, at that point, it
was already all over. But I still did.
(10:51):
I did a great interview. We compared notes on the train
back. You know, we were very
civilized. So we went up together.
And so we got a law and we compared notes.
And she said, man, I really madea mess of that interview.
But do you know who got the job offer?
Weren't me. And so it weren't me.
It weren't me. Hey, Stacey Latonya.
(11:14):
Hello. Hello.
Yeah, it wasn't me. And it's like, you know, that is
just it's so wearing. It's so wearing.
It's it's, you know, all the little signs that you can't be
yourself, all the little signs that you are not valued, all the
(11:34):
little signs. And I mean, you know, by the
time I was in that job and I, you know, I was, you know, young
ish, but not that young, right? Late 20s, right?
You had some experience. You definitely had some.
I had some work experience, you know, I had my, I had my
bachelor's. I had lived abroad for a year.
(11:55):
I had, you know, I had all of this.
And it's like, why are you telling me that I am valued
less? Why are you showing me that I am
valued less? Why are you doing that in big
and small ways every day? You know, And so, and, you know,
this continued, this continued even even when I was no longer
(12:18):
working with organizations because, you know, I worked
with, I worked mostly with nonprofits mostly, right?
But I didn't work the first. The story I told you was when I
was working for a corporation, right?
But even when I was working as a, as a freelancer, I remember
early on in my career I was having an e-mail exchange back
and forth. This is before social media,
(12:40):
right? And somehow the guy I was
talking to discovered I was black and and suddenly wanted to
ask how I dare to charge so much.
I don't think it's coincidental that he was from South Africa.
I have to say, I don't think it's coincidental.
I love your delivery. I don't think it was
(13:03):
coincidental. I agree with you on that for
sure. And so and so, I mean, I think
we could all list multiple, those of us racialized as black,
those of us of the global majority, those of us who face
isms in any way. We could all list multiple
(13:24):
attacks on our humanity, right? All list multiple refusals to
see and value us all list. You know numerous examples of
racist abuse because let's not call them microaggressions,
right? Because because and
(13:44):
microaggressions do happen and you and I write about that a
lot. We do.
Yeah. You, you wrote such a an amazing
one of many amazing pieces on itthat I happily as soon as I got
to my chapter where I mentioned micro aggressions, I was like, I
(14:05):
know exactly who I'm going to quote on this.
I don't need to look very far. I'm a goal.
And, and here's a full circle moment for you, you know, you
know, every so often I do a reboot in my newsletter, my
reboot piece this this month, which also links to your space
to exhale page is that very samepiece of microaggressions.
Yeah, it's nothing, Michael, about them, as Linda is pointing
(14:27):
out. Right.
They're they're they're not micro.
And I always I explained him in the book and I have explained in
other places as well the I thinkit was Doctor Darold Wing Sue,
if I get the name wrong, you'll please give me grace.
But I believe that is the personwho certainly has written.
I'm not sure if they coined the term, but they definitely have
(14:49):
written. I liked about it, but they
explain that micro does not meanthat the impact is minus is
minuscule. Micro means it is one-on-one as
opposed to at a macro systemic level.
That's what the micro is referring to.
I know this. But still.
(15:10):
I know I know this, but as language.
People as language people. Micro in almost every other
context means small. It does and so and so subtly.
It tends to minimize it. Minimize.
It does minimize. It does minimize.
Absolutely right. And it I the experience you
(15:30):
shared earlier about not gettingthe promotion and not getting
the pay, the pay increase thoughlike that rings so close to
home. I remember, I think one year it
happened to me in one year. I remember, I remember that, you
know, my, my review started with, well, if anybody on this
(15:53):
team, you of all people deserve to get an increase in a
promotion. And I, and I initially, because
sometimes you take things literally and I, I really
thought it was going in a good direction and then.
There's like you deserve it, butyou're not getting it.
Make that make. Sense Meanwhile somebody you
(16:15):
know of you know 8.5 by Levin Hugh right had recently joined
had recently joined the team andhad said one day oh I'd really
love to be able to get a new apartment but I can't afford it
on my on on my salary. Next thing you know, all of a
(16:37):
sudden out of the normal review cycle, this person is got a
promotion and a pay increase andmoved into a fabulous apartment.
And so when people talk about the effects of racism and the
effects on black people, black and global majorities, people
(16:58):
inability in many cases to create generational wealth,
those are the kinds of instancesthat's where it starts.
It starts by you being the most qualified but not getting the
same pay increase as your less qualified, paler hued
colleagues. It starts by me being the person
who deserves both a promotion and a pay increase, getting
(17:20):
neither but somebody with 0 experience and almost and almost
0 melanin. Right.
Is. There a correlation is there a
correlation between the, you know, the lack of melanin and
the amount of the pay increase you can get?
Listen, it must be exponentially.
It's writing. Something you know, it is, it
(17:42):
has. And I know sometimes one says
correlation is not causation, but sometimes it is.
I'm just saying sometimes correlation is.
Yes, yes. And so, you know, I really when
you, your, your chapter on the working white black effect, I
mean, you know, when we were talking about, you know,
featuring a couple of chapters in the newsletter, I knew that
(18:03):
had to be one of them because itis such a, it's such a prevalent
thing, right? It happens so often.
It happened. You know, the thing that I've
always found interesting is thatI wrote originally because I, as
you know, did a whole section ofmy book on working while black,
(18:24):
and occasionally I add new newsletter pieces to it.
And I wrote about my experiencesin the UK, in the workplace, in
several companies. Every Black person I know that
has read it, that has worked in a place where they are
minoritized, no matter where that country is, has related to
(18:48):
it. Every person of the global
majority who has read it has also related to it.
You know, You know. Because it's it's a real thing.
And what what I find interestingabout your experience is that
you've kind of done it all. You've worked, you know, in
different regions, different continents, different countries,
(19:10):
all the things, right? You know, you are fluent in as a
copy copywriters, writers and copywriters will understand
this. But you're fluent in American
English and you and British English, which in some cases
people might not realize they are two different languages.
So different. So so different.
They're two very different languages.
But but on a, on a serious note,you have this sort of like trans
(19:34):
national, trans global experience, but the constant is
the racism and the microaggressions and the
diminishments and all of that. So what one of my another
question I have for you is, was there beyond what you shared at
the top of the show? Was there something that
happened? Was there a breaking point that
(19:56):
led you to start actually documenting your experiences
publicly? Because.
You and I, you again, you know, we have a podcast that is now
temporarily, we're claiming this, it's temporarily on a for
the past two years. But but side note, but it's
called, it's called the introvert sisters.
So we are both, you know, we're quiet souls, we're quiet, we're
(20:16):
introverted. We do more thinking than
speaking. Podcasts aside, we actually do
more thinking than speaking. And So what led you to go from
thinking about and ruminating about them, mentally processing
these experiences, to publicly speaking and talking about them
and advocating against that kindof experience?
(20:41):
Well, it's, it's, it's interesting when I, when I look
back at the, the history that led me to where I am now, there
are a couple of inflection points.
And one of them actually goes really far back.
Because I'm sure you can also remember, and I know you talk
about some of this in, in your book, You can all you remember
coming to live in Barbados from Trinidad and X and, and
(21:06):
experiencing a different social dynamic, a different kind of
racial politics in terms of the,the, the expectations and social
status of those racialised as white and those racialised as
black. And you know this is going to
say. This is it's so it's so elegant.
I love it. You know, this is not, this is
(21:26):
not to say that I mean, it is still a black majority country.
You can still see it, you can beit, all of those kinds of
things. But there are things hanging on
from colonialism that are still that still have an effect on the
society today. So that's what led me to do my
research that became exploring shadism.
But more recently what happened is, and, and I had also, I think
(21:52):
it had been stirring for a little while because I then look
back and I realised that even before 2020 I had written a
piece, I think I wrote a couple of things around the time that
47 got elected the first time. Right, Enough said about that.
(22:12):
Enough said about. Right.
But anyway, what happened is George Floyd's murder, frankly,
because I felt the soul deep weariness, which is the reason
we need space to exhale, right? I felt the soul deep weariness.
And so I started, you know, I think I wrote a piece called
(22:33):
Wild Black Thoughts on the Assumption of Wrongness.
Yes, I remember that. That's a good one.
Right, right. Which was that, that is
actually, that is the piece thatstarted me on this current
trend, right? This trajectory, because it, it
just, it just brought everythingto the surface.
(22:53):
You know, all the things that wehad experienced, all the things
that we had swallowed, the things that we had tried to
convince ourselves weren't so bad, the things that we had no,
no, that we knew were bad. But, you know, if we took the
time to react to each of them, we would never do anything else
or, you know, all of those things.
And, and so I, I wrote that piece, people responded to it,
(23:17):
and then I realized I had more to say and the floodgates kind
of opened. And so a few months later, I
started the newsletter, which has been going for nearly five
years and now has more than 600 pieces in it.
Right. That is, that is, and
congratulations on that because thank you.
Honestly, nowadays, anything that lasts more than a year or
(23:38):
two, to be honest, it's like it's a it's a miracle and it's
not, it's not any shade on on anybody.
It is, it is, it can be hard. It is difficult.
Doing the kind of work that you do is not easy, even though you
you have an advantage because you have start you, you are a
writer and a language person. So doing a newsletter from and a
(23:59):
trained journalist. And once again, the person who
created a journalism was university, yes.
So you, you have all of that experience and all of that
talent, but it is still hard. Activism is not easy.
Solopreneurship is often not easy.
(24:21):
And so kudos to you for staying the course and keeping it going
for more than five years. You know, enough respect, as we
say about home and also people. I just want to say this right,
something that me and my good Beijing buddy Steve Jones, the
the CEO of POC stock, We say this all the time.
(24:42):
Say it with your checks. You know the phrase say it with
your chest, That's great, but also say it with the checks,
right? In other words, support people
beyond likes and, and, and you know, the likes are wonderful.
The comments are wonderful. We absolutely appreciate them.
You know, all of you that have shown up here for us today, we
are very happy that you are hereand we're not talking about
(25:05):
y'all because y'all are the samepeople that always show up for
us. We don't listen everybody in
this comment section. I know when I go back and I can
actually see people's names, I'mlike, Oh yes, I know this.
Person. This person.
Check. Check.
Check, check, check, check. These people, you know, y'all
always show up for us and so we appreciate that we're talking.
About them? We're grateful.
We appreciate it. We're talking about the other
people who are like, oh, I support, I support you.
(25:29):
I'm working. I appreciate you.
That's wonderful. Where's the tech?
Where's the subscription money? Where's the support?
Because, right, Because I'm justsaying.
I know you get space. How do you get space to exhale
if you're living? Can't a mouse?
You can't. How do you like, how do you get?
How do you get? Yes, Yanker Introvert Sisters
(25:51):
Reloaded. Good to see you in the room.
Yes, yeah. Hi Yanker.
Right. You know, how do you get space
to exhale? How do you get to to rest?
How do you get to recover if you're worried about how to pay
your bills? And you know, it, it, it irks
me. It really it, it irks me.
(26:12):
That more people don't. Sorry, no.
Sorry, you no. No, no, it irks me that more
people don't, you know, again, like you, I'm grateful for all
the people that have stepped up.There is 200 strong, right?
You know, if they were 500 strong, I could focus on the
newsletter at all alone, right. So, you know, there's a,
there's, there's still a gap. There, there is a gap, but I I
(26:35):
just want to say that this mightseem like a digression, but it
actually is not. Because all of this working
while black is not just about corporate spaces, although
that's a lot of it. It is about this experience that
a lot of black people, and especially black women, are
expected to work for free and bemammies to the entire universe
(26:57):
and to have everybody. I posted on that too.
I'm just saying, right? I am not your mammy, I am not
your Saviour. Run me that check.
When is the check? You know I'm so I see you in
the. Comments We ain't got nothing
but rich and rested. Rich and rested.
Exactly. That is, that is, that is
(27:19):
Yinka's trademark and vibe. And yeah, that is, that is just
perfect, right? Yeah, that is where we need to
be. And and you know how that is
space. Exhale that, Richard that.
Is space exhale? And here's the thing, we do this
work because we are called to itbecause we believe it is
meaningful, because because it needs to be done and all of that
(27:41):
remains true. But it I there is nothing in the
contract that says that you haveto be running on fumes, right?
While you were doing this work. Yeah, right.
You can have impact without exhaustion.
That's my watchword this year, right?
What say OK, hold on, rewind, say that one more thing.
Impact without exhaustion, yes, right.
(28:04):
I'm a fan. I love that.
I love that. Let me just say another thing.
Let me just say another thing because again, people like to to
think, I understand why it's easy to think of working wild
black or existing wild black within a few narrow silos or or
confines, but all of it ties to racism.
(28:25):
It ties to white supremacy culture, culture.
And one of the most recent tragic examples of this is
there's a minimally melanated woman out there who recently, to
the best of my recollection, called a young black child the N
(28:45):
word with the hard, ER, right, the hard one.
I mean, even even without that, it would be, it would be bad,
don't get me wrong, but just straight out call him a, you
know what? And what has happened is that
this person who was harmed, a young black child, has raised in
the space of a few days hundredsof thousands of dollars because
(29:09):
she is not upset because she sheis at the FO part of FAFO and
she right. She is upset because she is
upset because she was called to account for the harm that she
did. But, you know, it is, it is so,
it is so wearing for those of usdoing the work when somebody
(29:31):
that does that amount of harm can raise hundreds of thousands
of dollars and the rest of us are out here saying, OK, but you
know. Yeah, because could we?
Get 10s of thousands even. Could we just get, you know, can
we, you know, can, can somebody,can somebody support the work
that we're doing? Can somebody support, you know,
(29:52):
compensate the education that wehave been giving year in, year
out? And I mean, we're not the only
ones. I mean, there are people that
have been doing this for 10, for15 years and they still are
having the same problem. I like what is on the screen
there, the terrible tree of white supremacy, capitalism and
patriarchy. And so, you know, who is that
the, you know, who loses out in that?
(30:13):
Black women. Black women, right?
Yeah, that's. The need for.
Space to exhale. Did I catch that right?
Yes, you did. Yes, you did.
Yes, you did. Right, hence the the need for
for SpaceX Hale. And so, OK, we've been talking
about working well Black. And you know, those of you again
(30:34):
who have been tuning in for the past few episodes know that I
asked all of my guests to choosean excerpt from SpaceX Hale that
they would like me to read for them.
And unsurprisingly so, this is going to be a bit of a meta
experience. I don't know how else to
describe it, but it's an excerptof my book that appeared in
Sharon's newsletter. I love it.
(30:58):
Right. So because again, her her book
is called I'm Tired of Racism, true stories of existing while
black and I wrote a chapter called Working while Black.
And so she featured it in her newsletter.
And side note on that too, that is what actual support looks
like, right? She has a newsletter.
(31:19):
Her sister is, you know, launching a book.
The number of texts I have just gotten from Sharon randomly,
Hey, I'm going to feature you inthe newsletter this month.
Hey, can you send me a banner? I'm going to put it on my
website. Hey, you know, it's always a
hey, how here's how I'm going tosupport you.
And so just putting that out there as well that there are
ways to do this for each other. Network across, right, Network
(31:44):
across. My thing is, you know, I have
100,000 plus followers. Anytime I see somebody doing
something I, you know, I'm like,OK, I'm a repost it.
I will, you know, promote it as much as I can within my
community. And that is how it works.
But now back to the matter at hand.
So I'm going to read an excerpt of an excerpt of an excerpt.
(32:07):
And so it actually is going to start with the intro that Sharon
wrote on her newsletter. So if it sounds a bit different
that it right, So it's from thisis the excerpt from an excerpt
from Space to Exhale that appeared in Sharon's anti racism
newsletter. So here goes.
(32:29):
Hello friends. This is the second excerpt from
Space to Exhale by Lisa Hurley. If you missed it, check out the
first one. Expect it to excel.
This excerpt talks about a common experience for Black
women in the workplace. Read on for details of both the
Working While Black effect and how anti racism advocates and
(32:50):
accomplices can take steps to encounter it.
Working while Black refers to the cluster of daily
diminishments, psychologically harmful behaviours and
emotionally taxing experiences that Black people, especially
Black women, encounter in white majority workplaces.
(33:12):
Ask any black person, no matter the variables career wise, the
constant is that they have experienced some or all of the
12 elements that comprise what Ihave termed the working Wild
Black effect. WWBE.
The WWBE is a syndrome composed of an interconnected web of
(33:35):
behaviors and occurrences. It includes simultaneously being
invisible and hyper visible, overworked and under resourced,
last hired but first fired, overcredentialed but under promoted.
Managing but not viewed as management material.
(33:55):
Being perceived as excessive yetinadequate.
It also includes experiences such as being torn, policed,
unsponsored, and of course, being called angry or aggressive
just because our faces are at rest.
Let me give you a few more examples of the WWBE, because my
impression is that most minimally melanated people have
(34:18):
no idea how much of an additional psychological burden
Black people bear at work in thelives of public figures.
The WWBE looks like former Vice President Kamala Harris, with
her stellar reputation, experience, credentials,
eloquence, policies, policies, and actual plans, losing the
(34:42):
2024 election to an unqualified felon who should never have been
allowed to run in the first place.
Just saying. The working wild black effect
also looks like my forever FLOTUS Michelle Obama being
criticized about her arms and myforever POTUS Barack Obama being
(35:04):
criticized about wearing a tan suit.
It looks like actress Taraji P Henson weeping because even
though she is so tenured in her acting career, she still has to
fight for decent roles and equitable pay.
Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson being publicly
flayed for days during her SCOTUS confirmation hearing.
(35:28):
Remember that one tear? It still breaks my heart.
Dot doctor Bonnie Candia Bailey,a former vice president of
Student Affairs at Lincoln University of Missouri, being
bullied and unsupported to such a degree that she ended her own
life in order to get some relief.
(35:49):
May she rest in peace. Those of us who are not so
visible also have to navigate the treacherous White Majority
waters. Just because the daily race
related paper cuts are not occurring in public doesn't mean
they're not occurring at all. Trust me, they are.
The WWBE comprises pay inequity,The broken rung and the glass
(36:13):
Cliff. The pet to threat phenomenon,
The black girl boss paradox being the only being the
representative code switching. Hear discrimination,
microaggressions, misogynoir, intersectionality, and the
superwoman schema. A note from Sharon.
There are full details of how these phenomena show up in the
(36:35):
book. So you know what to do.
So what now? Because that's a lot, right?
Imagine experiencing all of the above multiple times a day for
decades. Do you understand now why black
women are tired? Why we don't feel
psychologically safe? Why we don't trust corporate
(36:56):
spaces? This is why so many of us are
choosing self-employment over the daily professional struggle.
For my non black readers, I've shared all this to help educate
you about what most of your Black colleagues are going
through, with the hope that yourempathy and ethics will stir you
to do better. Be the person you proclaim
(37:19):
yourself to be. If you had time to post a Black
square and write a performative caption during the racial
reckoning of 2020, then you havetime to interrupt bias when you
see it. Do what you can to help your
Black colleagues breathe a little easier.
There are so many small but impactful actions you can take
(37:41):
as an individual. If you have privilege, use it
for good. Interrupt bias and
microaggressions in the moment. Publicly fight for pay equity
for the Black people on your team.
Let us end the trend of Black people being the highest
qualified and lowest paid. Pronounce people's names
correctly. If you can pronounce
(38:03):
Tchaikovsky, onomatopoeia, or schadenfreude, you can pronounce
our names. Be a good human.
Most of us know what it's like, what it feels like to be
bullied, so let's not bully others.
Let the golden rule obtain. If you don't want it for
yourself, don't inflict it on others.
(38:23):
For organizations, if you are listed as one of the best places
to work, my question is best forwhom?
If you purport to have created apsychologically safe culture, my
question is safe for home because despite your
proclamations, Black people, particularly Black women, do not
feel safe at work. As a corporate entity, you have
(38:47):
the power and means to make positive changes at scale.
I don't have all the answers, but I do have some suggestions
for how you can provide space toexhale for your global majority
employees. Prioritize and fund DEI.
Prioritize psychological safety.Prioritize community and safe
spaces. DE prioritize performativity.
(39:09):
For my black readers, I have shared all this to let you know
that you are not alone and what you're going through is not a
figment of your imagination. The system, alas, is operating
as designed. I've also shared this to
hopefully inspire some self reflection given that this is
how things are. How do you choose to proceed
(39:32):
with your career? What do you want for yourself?
How are you going to curate your?
How are you going to curate yourcareer to minimize harm and
maximize health? How will you createspace to
exhale in your work life? You don't need to answer these
questions now, but at least start thinking about them in the
(39:54):
next chapter, curating your career.
We will explore them more deeplynow.
Another note from Sharon. That's the end of our 2nd and
final excerpt from Space to Exhale.
As you know, my articles on working while black were some of
the earliest ones in this newsletter, so this excerpt has
particular resonance. What stood out to you and what
(40:16):
action will you take as a result?
Thanks for reading, Sharon. So.
That's it where you might need to end the episode now because
we're not What a. Moment.
We're not going to, but yeah, so.
So when you first read it, when I when I sent you a copy of the
(40:40):
book, and because you didn't know what you know, you need a
general theme. But I don't think you realize I
was going to write a chapter that was that rough.
I did not realize that that chapter was going to be in it.
Yeah. I, you know, because I obviously
I know about all your other workwith your community and, you
know, all the other things that you talk about about soft living
(41:01):
and, you know, rest and mental health and all of those kinds of
things. I'm sorry, I was reading.
Yeah, because comment. Listen, you need some edge
control girl like. Yeah.
And it's, you know, so I did notknow that was going to be in it,
(41:23):
but it was so powerful. And I'm so particularly
powerful, as I said in my introduction, as as as, as the
reson deck for your book and foryour community, right.
The reason why we need those spaces, the reason why Yinka,
for example, has written Rested as a trademark, right?
(41:46):
Because it's all about the reason why I talk about impact
without exhaustion, right? It's all I mean, is it any
coincidence that all three of usand many others are having the
same thought at the same time? That the way that we have been
living is unsustainable? Yes, especially for us as Black
women, Yes. I mean, capitalism, patriarchy,
(42:09):
colonialism will do that anyway.I mean, it's not really helping
anyone. But, you know, we definitely
drew the short straw. For sure, for sure.
Yeah. And so one of the sorry, go
ahead. No, no, no.
And so I think that, you know, you're there in the middle of
all the, you know, the lovely stories and the memoir and all
(42:31):
this kind of thing. And it's like bam.
Apricot. Yeah, this.
Oh, OK then. So This is why we need this
book. This is why we need this book.
It's accountability because because I'm like, I'm like, I am
not going to put anything out there that you know, I'm not
going to. All Lives Matter, my own book.
(42:51):
No. I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to All Lives Matter, my own book.
I'm going to tell the truth as Iknow and I have experienced it.
And that is what I was determined to do and that is
what I did. And I want to make sure not only
to describe some of the experiences.
And that is important because some people genuinely, by some
(43:13):
strange means, don't know, or sothey claim, right.
So I want to describe, but I also wanted to to recommend.
You know, I'm a strong believer in verbs.
So here's the issue. Here's what we're going through.
I want to make black people, andespecially Black women feel seen
and heard and understood and held right.
(43:35):
I want all of this to happen andI want the people, the powers
that be, to do better. And This is why our work is In
Sync, because, you know, for anybody that has been reading
the newsletter for a long time, you will notice that I, I
shifted gears a little bit, tinybit from just, you know, at
(43:56):
first I was documenting. But what you will often find is
that now I will say, OK, So whatare you going to do with this?
Here's an action you can take, you know, at least reflect on
this, right, so that you're moving and also, you know, that
that idea of just, you know, making the people who share our
(44:18):
identity feel seen and making those who don't be aware and
have actions that they can take and I think and.
Accountable. And accountable.
And I think your book also does that really, really well.
I mean, yes, it is a soft space with hard truths.
It's what it is. I guess I'm gonna have to
(44:39):
rewrite my copy. I listen.
I love, I love Wordsmith. Soft space with hard truths.
What? Yes, I love that.
Yes. You can use it.
I'm sorry. Yes, soft space with hard
truths, right? Because you don't just say, you
(45:01):
know, it's not, it's not throughthrough, if you know what I
mean. It is very, it is very, it is
very focused. It, it takes people on a journey
and it explains the why that we,you know, the why, the reasons
that we need what we need. And then it gives people stuff
to do. Yeah, right.
It gives people stuff to help them start that healing process
(45:22):
which is so necessary. I, I remember being interviewed
once a couple years back and someone, you know, the
interviewer asked, you know, usual question Will, what can
white people do to, you know, listen and learn more?
And I was like, I'm like, look, we are centuries in at this
(45:44):
point, right? We're centuries in.
We're even if you want to say decades in, right, Let's say
we're decades in. Listening and learning needs to
be a constant. I'm not saying it doesn't, but
what about what about where's the action where the verbs?
Because because if all people dois listen, I'm going to listen
(46:05):
and I'm going to reflect and. I like that voice.
Are you going to reflect my paycheck right.
Are you going to reflect, you know my promotion?
Are you going to reflect actually supporting my business?
Are you going to reflect, Stop no longer redlining us, whether
it comes to housing or in our inour careers, because corporate
(46:28):
and career redlining is a real thing, right?
So while you're reflecting, are you changing that stuff too?
Yes. Are you going for us?
Are you, are you going to, are you going to reflect stealing
stuff from the culture and passing it off as your own?
Are you going to reflect that, right?
Calling, calling AAVE, you know what is it?
(46:48):
Gen. Z, whatever that is.
I'm like, yeah, as a linguist, Isay, no, that is not the.
Credit where it is, credit whereit is due and compensate also
where it is due. Yes, credit and compensation
where it is due and do something, take action.
Take action. That's it.
(47:09):
Yes, we listen. Yes, we.
Learn. I listen and learn all the time.
1 of introvert. Listening and learning is my
sweet spot, but that is not where it stops.
That's where it starts. Yeah, right.
You you get to is action accountability right?
And, and, and how are you, how are you contributing as well?
And when I look at you and you know, your, your life in, in
(47:34):
terms of your, your professionallife and, and your life as a, as
a human being, as an introvert and so on, I can, I can see, I
remember once you asking me somewhat you're like.
How did I even become an activist?
Like you're, you're, you're like, when did this happen?
I said, Sharon, you know, you'vealways been this person a right,
(47:56):
Even though I, I might have known it because, you know, I
grew up, You know, you're, you're your mind is here, right?
So we, we know one another, right?
But also, our parents were the original, you know, the fraud,
the flaw. Power.
Beautiful power and all of that.So you, you were raised around
that. You were raised in a black
(48:17):
majority country, right? Albeit having been born, you
were born in the UK, which I don't understand why that still
makes people glitch. Every time I tell somebody that
you're British, like they pause.Like if I've said something
wrong, like I don't know where my own sister was born.
But side note. Well, yes girl.
Well, you know, they people be questioning.
Let's not go there. Let's not even go there.
(48:38):
Let's not even go there. Let's not even go there.
But yeah, no, I see. Part of what I see is you're
having moved from a lot of processing and a lot of
thinking. And you were always writing in
your notebooks, in your whereveryou were always writing, right?
Not necessarily publicly, but you moved from the writing
(48:58):
privately to the writing publicly.
And like you said, you move fromdescription to in some cases
prescription. Like here's what you need to do
because sometimes we don't need to tell people that.
And so you as a global majority person, as a black woman, you
have done that. Many of us have done that.
(49:18):
And all we're asking is that others do the same.
You cannot just stay in the listening and learning.
And yeah, like, like Janka says,thoughts and prayers, right?
You can't stay. Thoughts and prayers are lovely.
I'm a I'm a prayer warrior. I believe in a good prayer.
But faith without works is dead.You need the faith and you need
(49:42):
the works. You need both.
It's an equation, right? You take off 1/2, the equation
is going to fall to one side. It's going to topple.
You need both faith and works. And so that is what we are
asking to, to not even asking because that's not even the
energy I want to put out there. But that is that is the
requirement. No, no, no.
(50:02):
At this point, at this point, we're not asking.
We're, we're, we're saying, we are stating explicitly that you
have to take action. You have to take action.
And you know, for, for those people that say, oh, but but
what can I do? And you worry about getting it
wrong. It is better to do something and
get it wrong than to do nothing.It is better to do something,
(50:24):
get it wrong, and sincerely apologize and repair the harm
than to do nothing. Yeah, yeah.
If you you know if you leave everything to the next person,
nothing is going to change. Say it one more time.
If you leave everything to the next person, nothing is going to
change. Right.
(50:45):
And and that actually is something I'm so happy you said
that. That's something I mentioned in
the book as well. Don't.
And actually I think, I think I was speaking to corporations at
that point, but it was like, oh,wrong.
What other companies are doing. You set the rules and decide the
culture and establish that and implement it for your
(51:07):
organization and for your team and for your department.
Don't look around how other people are doing and say, well,
they're not doing it, so I don'tneed to know.
You do. Just do the right thing, do the
right thing. If you know that there's a
person, you know, like in that story that you shared with us at
the top of the show, sis, when you're like, OK, well, you're
the most qualified person, but you did not get the the
(51:30):
promotion and the pay increase and so forth.
Those are the cases in which people should intervene,
frankly, right. Don't know that you are you, you
know, barely well, you know, letme, let me hold my tongue.
But just three people, girl. I had to pull it back.
I had to pull it back. Breathe.
(51:53):
Breathe, breathe. This gets me so heated because
we've been dealing with it for too long and it seems like if we
just keep going and. I know.
I know you. Yeah.
You have had it too. You have.
You have. I mean, tell me if I'm talking
out of turn, right. But you have been in spaces
where there are 8 by 5 by 11 people who are turning up late
(52:15):
and leaving early and somehow get the promotion.
Yeah, and. While they come up with 10
reasons why you cannot have it even though you have done big
corporate launches. Yeah.
Anyway, yeah, still mad about that.
It is, it is. Thank you, thank you.
I appreciate. I appreciate you being mad on my
(52:37):
behalf because that is support. And so one of the isms that we
have sort of skirted around, butnot addressed directly is
professionalism, right? Which is so often basically
weaponized against black people.So how given everything that
(52:58):
we've discussed, given where we are, like, is there any way to
reclaim professionalism? Is it something that we want to
reclaim? Is it something that we want to
redefine? You know, these are some
thoughts I have SO. I, I, I think that we probably
need to redefine it. And the reason I say that is
because the things that are deemed most professional are all
(53:19):
bound up with white supremacy culture, right?
And so that is not helping anybody.
So we need to really rethink what is the stuff that really
matters, you know, can you do the job that you were hired for?
Do you have some good ideas? You know, do can you contribute
(53:39):
them in whatever way you can, Which does not mean that you
have to stand up and present at a meeting.
It could be an e-mail. It could be in a chat on a Zoom
call, right? You know it really.
You know the things that don't matter, like you know the things
that don't matter, the things they often concentrate on, like
what is your hair like? Are you wearing a head wrap?
(54:01):
Are you wearing? Are you, are you performing?
Femininity is how I think of it as well.
Girl. Right, right now, that is a big
one for me, right? A number of places that I have
been in where it's like they want you to wear heels and a
skirt and this and jewelry and makeup and all this kind of
thing. But you know, this is not who I
am. Listen.
(54:22):
Never, never have been. Never has been.
Does it affect my ability to do the job right?
You know, are are you forcing people to put on a performance
in the name of professionalism? Because if you are, then your
notion of professionalism needs to change.
If you are in a, in a job setting, a corporate setting, a
(54:44):
work setting, what matters is your ability to learn or do the
job depending on where you are in your career, right?
What matters is your ability to,to contribute.
But when I say contribute, I don't mean work yourself to the
bone. I don't mean stay late and come
(55:05):
in early. I don't mean any of those
things, you know, I don't mean be on a plantation.
Basically, let me, let me be plain.
I do not mean being on a corporate plantation and being
treated to soot. Right, I don't mean to laugh,
but. That is another extraction.
That is the next thing to enslavement, right?
It really is. It really?
(55:27):
It really is. It's like, oh, you know, if you
leave before, you know your date, work day is 9:00 to 5:00.
But if you leave before 6 and you don't know in at 8:30, all
of a sudden that's a problem. You know they're not paying you
no extra, mind you, but. They're not paying you.
No, man. There's a name for that.
Yeah, and that is supposed to beillegal, right?
That is supposed to be illegal. I don't see why corporations get
(55:49):
a free pass, right? I don't seem like corporations.
No, they should not. And you know, and then you end
up with people who are stressed,you end up with people who are
unhealthy, you end up with people who have all kinds of
illnesses. So we definitely to rethink and
redefine what we consider professionalism.
(56:09):
You know, what is it that actually needs to happen within
the context of a workplace? Can the person that is doing the
job deliver that? Right.
Does it matter what time they dothe work, whether they're in the
office, whether they have the perfect pair of heels, whether
they're made-up to the nines, whether they're wearing
jewellery, you know, whether they, you know, should it matter
(56:33):
whether they have piercings and tattoos and whatever?
Should it matter whether they'rewearing a head wrap?
Right. Of all those things that I've
listed, there's only one of those things that actually
matters, and that is what professionalism should be about,
treating people with respect anddoing the job.
(56:53):
Amen. Two things, two things, two
things, right? Not doing harm to your
colleagues and doing the job. I mean, Amen to that.
Amen to that. Oh Janker said.
Bye, Janko. We'll see you next time.
Nice to see you, Janko. Thanks for swinging through.
I have one last question before we start to wrap up because and
(57:16):
I know we're running a bit over,you know per usual.
I knew this was going to happen.I knew it was.
Going to happen. We already knew, right?
And so the show is, you know, the book is space exhale.
The show is space exhale. So I have to ask you, we're
talking about professionalism and I believe in life work
balance, not work life balance because I think life comes
(57:37):
first. So it feels, it often feels like
the world is trying to suffocateus right knees, knees on our
necks in various ways. And so where have you been able
to find space to exhale or wherehave you been able?
(57:57):
How have you been able to createspace to exhale for
yourself? I, I, I agree with one of the
things, I think you said it somewhere in your book, it has
to be intentional. You do have to create it because
the world out there doesn't wantyou to create it.
The world out there, especially if you're a black woman, you
know, wants the mammy wants the saviour or wants the person that
(58:19):
they can pile onto. And so you, it's up to you to
say, Oh, I'm blocking out some time in my calendar for me or I
am taking a vacation and I'm no,I will not have my phone on or
whatever. I started about two years ago
now. I'm not as good at doing it, but
the starting point was once 1/4.I block out a week where I take
(58:43):
no meetings. Oh.
I love that. Yeah, right.
I have I have tented supposedly a no call day once a week
doesn't quite work out like thatbecause there there are a couple
of things that happen once a month on that day that I do want
to attend, but it's my choice, right?
But nobody can book a call with me on that day, right?
(59:03):
I break up the week. It's the middle of it's the
middle of the week, right? And I have got very good now at
saying, oh, you know, this thingis coming up.
Let me block out that time on mycalendar, right.
So you know, the first step is not allowing people to book you
when you don't want to be booked.
Boundaries, boundaries. Boundaries, boundaries.
And then, you know, giving yourself time off making
(59:26):
considering what is really important, considering what is
really important, what often is important is family with, you
know, time with family, time with friends, time with
yourself. If you're introvert, right?
I this year I put a 30 minute break in my, in my work day for
me to be with myself. I don't end up taking it every
(59:48):
day, but I tell you, I've taken a hell of a lot more of them
than before. I put it in my calendar, right?
I have it on my actually have iton my habit tracker so I can
check how many days a week I do it right and yeah, just.
Giving yourself space. Yeah, giving yourself space and
time because type time and type learns and translates to space.
(01:00:11):
And learning not to feel guilty about it, right?
Learning to put myself first in that way.
I mean, a really good example isas you've known so many people
watching. I had eye surgery in May and I
talked to the people in my community and I and, you know,
my peer mentors stepped in and they ran the two meetings for
that month, right, right. I actually attended the second
(01:00:34):
one, but I was not in charge of the meeting.
But I I didn't attend the first one.
Life. You know, I did a little bit of
pre scheduling, right? Not at my usual cadence when I'm
here. You know, 222 social media posts
a week when people didn't even realize I was gone, right?
And and I did not actually replyto anything for two weeks, 2
(01:00:55):
full weeks. Oh my gosh, that must have been
heaven. It was.
That's how it. Was it was, it was.
And you know, I went away earlier this year and I turned
off my most of my notifications and I have not turned on, but
most of them have not come back on, right?
So I actually did you realize, you realized how beautiful the
(01:01:16):
lack of noise is? It's not used.
To us, though. This is not news to us.
I mean we, we are both readers. We always loved a quiet space
where we could sit with our book.
This is this has been from time.Yes, and so.
In a in a sense, you know, it's recreating those spaces for
yourself and being intentional about it, I think.
(01:01:37):
And yeah. And it's hard work because
you're fighting decades of programming, you're fighting the
world out there trying to draw you in.
You know you're on vacation, butcan you just, you're not
available today, but can you just?
And then you have to learn to say no.
You have to learn to say no. Can you just, can you just wait
until I come back? You know, right?
(01:01:59):
Yeah, exactly. Can you just not not be
unreasonable and leave me alone?Can you not desecrate my alone
time? Exactly.
Exactly. Oh my God, sis, we could talk.
We could talk like this for hours and hours.
But you know, we're for sure just over the hour mark.
So I'll bring the episode to a close.
(01:02:20):
But before I do that, you know, every episode I share an
affirmation. This episode I actually have two
for the people. So the first one is I am
navigating corporate spaces withease, safety and success, right?
I will, I will say it two more times.
(01:02:41):
Y'all can repeat it when you want to.
I am navigating corporate spaceswith ease, safety and success.
I am navigating corporate spaceswith ease, safety and success.
And the second one, I think you're going to love sis.
(01:03:04):
I am always divinely protected. The weapons may form, but they
will never prosper. Amen.
I am always divinely protected. The weapons may form, but they
will never prosper. I am always divinely protected.
The weapons may form, but they will never prosper.
(01:03:27):
Amen and Hallelujah and. So it is and so it is and.
So it is as she and so says. Thank you for being here, this
is amazing, right? Amazing.
My gosh. Best, best conversation ever.
Best conversation ever. And so thank you and thanks to
(01:03:48):
all of you for joining me on space to exhale the podcast
TuneIn every Tuesday live on LinkedIn to catch the vibes.
Can't make the live show? No problem.
Subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and YouTube to catch the
replay. And if you want to dive deeper
into what we discussed today, besure to subscribe to Sharon's
(01:04:12):
Anti Racism, Sharon's Anti Racism newsletter.
And also be sure to get a copy of my book, Space to Exhale,
available at Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Marcus Books, Widely
Publishing, and wherever books are sold.
To stay in touch, follow me on LinkedIn and check out my
website, spacedirecthailbook.comfor updates about all the soft
(01:04:36):
life shenanigans now, since nextnext week's episode will fall on
my publication day, right? Mark your calendars for two very
special events. The first event is I'll be
hosting a virtual launch celebration on Tuesday, June
17th at our usual Showtime of 12noon Eastern on LinkedIn.
(01:05:01):
I will be joined once again by my amazing sister, Sharon Hurley
Hall as well as Alexis Mobley, Liku Ahmadi, Latonya Davis and
Ilona Washington. And thanks, thanks ladies for
agreeing to be my guest on that show.
I'm looking forward to next weekand then on Saturday, June 21 I
(01:05:22):
will be hosting a fabulous high vibrational in person book lot
celebration which is sponsored by POC Stock, The Great Exhale
Leader, Keys Consulting, Sharon's Anti Racism newsletter
and the Starbucks Green Brook store #21251 managed by Jessica
Acevedo. Tickets are on sale now and
(01:05:45):
seats are limited, so make sure you get yours.
Prices start at just $25, which is less than the cost of the
book, and your ticket also gets you a free professional headshot
of $500 value courtesy of my premier sponsor, Pop Stock.
So go to spacedirecthailbook.comright now to secure your seat.
(01:06:06):
I am looking forward to sharing space and time with all of you
next week when my sisters and I gather to celebrate Pub Day.
So, so excited, so excited. So everyone, thanks again.
Goodbye for now and remember youare worthy of rest, you are
(01:06:28):
worthy of love, and you are worthy of having time and space
to exhale. Bye.
See you next week.
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