Ever felt like you can’t tell if you’re ready to leave or just desperate for something to change?
In this raw and revealing conversation, I sit down with Dr. Becky Whetstone, also known as the “Marriage Crisis Manager,” to talk about what really happens when a relationship hits the point of "I think I want out." Whether you're in the middle of a marriage meltdown or quietly questioning everything, this episode is packed with insight, validation, and surprising hope. We talk about the nervous system’s role in emotional shutdown, why a separation doesn’t have to mean the end, and how responsiveness in a partner can make or break a relationship. Dr. Becky also shares her own story of starting over at 42 and why it’s never too late to grow emotionally and reclaim your sense of self.
You might want to listen if:
- You feel emotionally neglected and aren't sure how much more you can take
- You're thinking about separation but don’t know what that actually means
- You’ve been told you’re too emotional or too much in your marriage
- You’re the only one doing the work and it’s making you question everything
- You’ve wondered if your marriage is worth saving but don’t know where to start
FIND OUT MORE!
- Apply for FREE Coaching with Jenn
- Join the DANCE CIRCLE - Get updates on Jenn's debut book "Dance of Attachment"
- Join our FREE Community! Speak Honest Facebook Group 🧡
- Become a Relationship Reboot Member and access all you need to become secure.
- Schedule your Free 30 min Attachment Assessment with Jenn Today!
- Watch Jenn on the 🔴 TEDx Stage!
- Download your free Workbook: Dance of Attachment
- Visit www.speak-honest.com to learn more
- Follow Jenn on Instagram: @speak_honest
- Like the episode? Please write a review, your words help others find us!
DISCLAIMER: Speak Honest podcast content is informational, not professional or medical advice. Jenn is an ICF relationship coach, not a licensed therapist. Consult health ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to another episode of Speak
Honest.
I am Jen Noble, your go-torelationship coach, and on
today's episode, I had the honorof getting to talk to Dr Becky.
(00:49):
Dr Becky Whetstone is a marriageand family therapist.
She is a compassionate expertdedicated to guiding individuals
through their most challengingtimes.
She offers intelligent,thoughtful decision-making and
action-taking for people inmarriage crisis.
Over the years, she hassupported thousands of couples
navigating the turbulent watersof marital crisis.
(01:12):
If you out there right now arein a marriage and you are at a
place where you are not surewhether or not you can make this
work, I highly recommendlistening to this episode with
Dr Becky.
We also just talk about how tomake relationships work.
That was some of the best partsof this conversation with her.
It also taught me that we'renever too old to start.
Dr Becky went back to schoolafter the age of 40, and it
(01:35):
really resonated with my ownpersonal story of, okay, I want
to go out there, I want to getthose credentials and I want to
do this thing.
And so if you're out there andyou're wondering what am I
supposed to do with the rest ofmy life Jen, I just hit 40.
I don't know what to do, justlisten to her story.
It's so inspirational.
And if you're sitting out thereright now and you're thinking I
(01:56):
really want to be with otherwomen like this, I wish I was
sitting in the room with DrBecky and Jen having this
conversation.
Well, I want to invite you tojoin our free Facebook community
.
You can join at any time.
You can just go on Facebook andyou can search Speak Honest,
secure Communication for Women,and you're going to be able to
find the Facebook right there.
If, for some reason, you cannotfind it, go ahead and scroll on
(02:16):
down to the show notes.
You can click on the link inthe show notes.
It'll take you straight to theFacebook group.
You're going to answer a coupleof questions just so we can get
to know you.
Make sure that you are who yousay you are so we can keep it a
safe environment for only womenwho are looking to heal their
relationships.
If that sounds like you, wewould love to have you in the
group Now.
I hope you enjoy my conversationwith Dr Becky.
(02:38):
Hello everyone, I am so excitedto get to talk with Dr Becky
Whetstone today Now, if you areunfamiliar with her work, I
recommend going out and Googlingher right now.
But she has the most fantasticbook and it is called.
I Think I Want Out what to Dowhen One of you Wants to End the
(03:00):
Marriage Oof.
The title of that book Dr Beckyeven just gets to me.
I think I want out.
I've been there.
Go ahead, introduce yourself,tell us a little bit about
yourself and say hi.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, first of all, hi everyone, and thank you so
much for having me on the show.
It's just, I feel like I'mfamous all of a sudden to be on
your show.
This is an incredibleopportunity.
Yeah, I've been relationshipobsessed my whole life since
childhood.
I used to scour advice columnsand I felt like that's what I
(03:29):
wanted to do when I grew up.
So I did.
I'm a writer, I've always been awriter, and I went and majored
in journalism in college andwhat I did was I went to Texas
to marry a Texan and I did notstart writing.
I got married and became ahousewife and I quickly realized
I did not enjoy being ahousewife at all, that I needed
(03:50):
to find a career for myself.
So back then I was pretty lost.
But what I did know is I'dmarried this fabulous man who
was my dream come true.
He was so loving and cute andsuccessful and six months into
our marriage he slammed the dooron me emotionally, went cold on
(04:11):
me like a bright light todarkness, and I spent the next
five years trying to get him tocome back out and love me and
pay attention to me and date meand, you know, be loving again.
He never would.
So we had two little kids andin about the eighth year I went
(04:32):
through kind of what you wouldcall a midlife crisis.
I just could not stand to bearound him anymore.
I just sat him down one dayafter work and I said I don't
think I want to be marriedanymore.
I know I need a separation.
I don't know if I want adivorce.
I don't know anything.
I just need to get away fromyou.
So we went to a marriagetherapist seeking advice and the
(04:56):
marriage therapist sent us homeand said if you don't want to
work on your marriage, I can'thelp you.
So we managed our marriagecrisis ourselves.
We separated ourselves.
We made the biggest mess.
We ended up, in my opinion,prematurely divorced.
I think if we'd have had theright care and someone telling
us and normalizing kind of whatwas going on, that we could have
(05:20):
found our way back to eachother.
But instead we tore up the townand ended up having this awful
divorce and it never set wellwith me that the therapist
couldn't help us.
And in our town we went to theguy who was the guy, the main
guy, the most respected guy intown and he couldn't help us.
(05:40):
So I sat on that for a while.
We got divorced.
I did go get a job for anewspaper.
I became a feature writer and acolumnist for the San Antonio
Express News.
I started writing aboutrelationships, very much like
Carrie Bradshaw in Sex and theCity.
I talked about the woes ofbeing a single mom and it was
(06:02):
extremely popular and I becameknown as a relationship guru in
San Antonio and I was on a bunchof radio shows and the local TV
shows.
But the callers would call inand complain that I had no
credentials.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I know that feeling, I really feel that.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I know, and it's just agonizing Just because you
didn't go to plant schooldoesn't mean that you can't grow
excellent plants, you know?
I mean I don't understand this,but anyway, I went to grad
school to shut people up becausepeople were going get a mail
order degree and I'm like, no,if Becky's going to do this,
she's going to do it legit.
(06:40):
So I went to grad school tobecome a marriage and family
therapist and I really fell inlove with what I was learning.
That really deepened me as arelationship guru kind of person
.
It really I don't know.
And the thing I discovered, too, was academic research, as
opposed to just reading magazinearticles or someone's book on
(07:03):
the shelf.
I was going to the library andpulling up journals and studies
and I learned the importance ofresearch, and so I made it my
business to look up marriagecrisis and I found all this
mother load of information.
That was so incredible and Ilove this so much.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So let me back up real quick because I want to get
the timeline set here.
So around when did you go backto school?
Because I think this is soimportant.
We have a lot of listeners, alot of women out there and
they're kind of starting over.
They've been divorced.
Honestly, I'm hearing a lot ofmy own story, which is I'm a
relationship coach, and a lot oftimes people are like, yeah,
but what the fuck do you know?
So I'm back in school to get mydegree in order to have that
(07:43):
clout.
So I totally get you.
I love this so much.
It just keeps happening.
But I get it right.
We want to be safe in whatwe're understanding.
But, if you don't mind measking, how about?
How old were you when you wentback to school?
42.
Yes, girl.
Oh, that makes me so excited.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I wasn't the oldest person in my cohort, not at all.
There's quite a few people andI've got clients.
Now they're like I'm 50 and Ijust started counseling school
and I'm like so what?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So what?
Get out there and do it.
It's never too late.
No, it is never too late.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
That is a huge.
You know, I finished when I was47.
It's so funny because thepeople I went to school with,
the younger ones, are now theage I was when I was in graduate
school, and we laugh about that.
That's so funny.
I had young teens back then andnow they have young teens.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, some of my friends are like in their 20s
because I meet them in collegeand I'm like a 40-year-old.
But anyway, it's like gettingoff sidetracked here.
But I think it's so importantfor people to see that, even if
the marriage doesn't work out,or even if it is that they need
to start over in life, that it'snot forever right.
Like you get back in there, youkeep growing, you keep going.
And look what Dr Becky hasbecome.
(08:50):
She is now the relationshipguru, she now has the letters
after her name and she is doingit.
So tell me more about this book.
So I think I want out.
Is this for women who know theywant the divorce or is this for
women who want to save themarriage?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
The people that are certain they want a divorce.
That's about 1% of thepopulation.
Most people are nagged withdoubts and they're anguishing
over whether to stay or go.
So what has happened in amarriage crisis is someone has
reached that crescendo of stresswhere they're just about to
lose their mind and they can'ttake it anymore and they go.
(09:27):
I think I want out or I'munhappy in the marriage, they
sort of burst a bubble andcreate this crisis situation and
when that happens, each spousetheir nervous systems fire up
and they go into the fight,flight and freeze response.
When you go in the fight,flight and freeze response, you
cannot think clearly, you cannotact rationally, you won't even
(09:47):
remember most of theconversations that you have.
Your digestion stops.
It's crazy.
And this activation of thenervous system goes on for
months and they're sitting theredeciding where they want to
stay or go while their nervoussystems are all activated and
I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no.
Now I learned in the research.
(10:08):
You know that we need to getpeople stabilized and calm them
down and tell them we're in nohurry to make a decision.
Let's just slow this down andwe'll get you calmed down.
And then, once you're more calm, then we will have adult
conversations.
Look under the hood of yourmarriage, see what we're dealing
with and see what thepossibilities are.
(10:30):
I also have to figure out earlyon whether they would benefit
from a separation.
If they do, I want them to doit not the way my husband and I
did, with no rhyme reason ortimeline.
I want them to work with atherapist who has a timeframe
(10:50):
set up for them weekly or everyother week, meetings with their
therapist overseeing theseparation, making sure they're
behaving themselves.
They're following the rules.
I have rules and they're verystrict.
You're not supposed to talk toeach other when you're separated
.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Okay, this is great.
Can we dive into this?
Because I'm hearing you say ifyou want to go, a separation
that is not the end of yourrelationship, Because you hear
this all the time oh, if you'regoing to separate, you might as
well divorce.
But that's just not true is it?
That's what negative Nelliesaid, so what I'm hearing you
say, though, also, is don't justseparate without a plan.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
No, otherwise I mean I'm sure you've heard of couples
that end up in separation limboand it just goes on and on and
on and on and on and they didn'tdo the work that they should
have been doing through thattime to get themselves healthier
as individuals and to belearning what a healthy
relationship is.
If you're not doing the work onyourself and learning to
(11:48):
understand relationship dynamics, then if you reconcile, the
research shows that 85% of youwill end up divorced within six
months.
So in my separation, it'smandatory that you get
individual therapy.
It's mandatory that yourseparation be overseen by
someone like me.
(12:08):
I call myself a marriage crisismanager and you're not allowed
to talk because the reason youseparate it is because whoever
the decider is, whoever thatperson is that thinks they want
a divorce, I want them to try itbefore they do it, because a
lot of people get divorced.
Then they go wait a minute, Idon't like this.
(12:29):
And they call me and go Becky,can you help me get my spouse
back?
And I'm like let's have youhave a trial divorce where you
don't speak to each other duringthis.
See if you miss your person,see if you recognize maybe
benefits that they brought toyour life that you didn't notice
before and you know, get someperspective on what being single
(12:52):
is, because if you get a flattire, you're going to have to
call triple A, like singlepeople do, instead of your
spouse.
So I find that you know, when acouple's stuck in a negative
cycle of behaviors, one of theways we create change is by
shaking up the system.
So the separation is meant toshake up the system and get them
(13:15):
to hopefully build motivationto want to save the marriage.
But there's a certainpercentage that are going to go
separate and they're going to go.
I love this.
I'm the happiest I've been Inthose cases.
I'd like to see those go aslong as six months, because some
people are high in thebeginning and excited to be away
from their spouse, but three,four, five, six months into it
(13:39):
they start getting restless andthey don't like it.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I love that you bring this up, because I've talked
about this before, which is kindof this, so a thing that I love
talking about.
I'm attachment focusedrelationship coach, right, so
I'll talk about attachmentstyles like all day, every day,
it's my passion.
But what I talk about isespecially for those
disorganized folks, those ladiesthat kind of want to pull them
in close but then push them away.
When you first get single, it'salmost like you have your own
(14:03):
honeymoon period.
Do you see this happen as well?
This sounds like what you'resaying, and so it's like oh,
look at me, I'm going out withthe girls every night, like I'm
going out to the clubs, I'mhaving such a good time, I'm
doing all this and then all of asudden, just like all
relationships, it kind ofsettles down and it's a little
bit boring and you're like waita second, this isn't what I
thought it was going to be.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
That's exactly right.
When my husband left the firstnight he was gone.
I remember jumping on our kingsize bed, jumping up and down,
singing ding dong the asshole'sgone.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I love it so much.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
He would never let me listen to music in the house or
in the car, and I had playedmusic for two years without ever
turning it off.
I was just like.
It was like a thirsty girl, youknow, just down in the water.
You know everything he forbidme to do.
I wanted to do it.
So this was a true like midlifecrisis where I was in a
rebellious mode, you know, andI'm like I love being away from
(14:59):
him.
This is fabulous.
But about a year later I went.
What the hell did?
I just do?
I came back.
When you're in a midlife crisis,you are in the fight, flight or
freeze response.
I say your IQ drops by 20points.
But that's not a fact.
It just seems that way becausea person is so self-oriented in
(15:20):
a negative way, they're veryself-centered and narcissistic
to the extreme degree for aperiod of time and they're not
reachable.
You can't pull them out of it.
So they kind of got to go tearup the town and come back to
reality, and so you look at itas like in the beginning of the
relationship, they're over here,conforming and sacrificing,
(15:41):
giving up a lot of who they areso they could be married, and
they got nothing out of that.
They're so mad that they spentall that time trying to get
someone to love them and theynever got that.
So now they swing all over tothis other side and say it's all
about me and to hell witheverybody else.
Now they're going to come backto the middle.
(16:01):
It usually takes about twoyears, but in my case it was a
year when I came back down andgot grounded and looked around
and I was divorced and he wasdating somebody seriously
already and he wouldn't eventalk to me about possibly
(16:22):
reconciling or going to amarriage therapist or anything
like that.
So that informed me that peopleneed to take their time, and I
wish someone had explained thenervous system part to me back
then that I was temporarilyinsane and I couldn't help it.
And that's normal.
(16:43):
It's normal to be temporarilyinsane when you are in the fight
.
Fight or freeze response.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
It's so important to really kind of get that across.
If you're in this big moment,you're having this midlife
crisis, if you're feeling like Idon't know if I could just stay
with the same man for the next20 years of my life, I don't
know what I'm going to do,you're normal, it happens, and
is there a way for?
Let's say, there's a woman outthere listening and she's been
with her husband eight, nine, 10years and she's kind of hitting
that stage.
(17:10):
You know he's becoming a littlebit more avoidant, she's
getting a little bit moreanxious.
He's not giving her enough ofwhat she needs.
The relationship isn't at aplace where she wants to
necessarily leave, but she alsocan't keep going on like this.
What can she do within therelationship?
Is there ever a chance for justthe woman to kind of get
herself kind of in a place whereshe feels a little bit more
(17:30):
secure, without having to go tohim and say I think I want out
First?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
of all.
I think the biggest problem Isee in marriage period is that
we're emotionally immature inour relationships and that's
caused by our childhood issues.
It makes us emotionallyimmature so we're emotional
children in our relationshipsand that's caused by our
childhood issues.
It makes us emotionallyimmature.
So we're emotional children inour relationships.
We do crazy things like poutand give our spouse the silent
treatment and slam doors.
(17:55):
That's childish, okay.
So people need to learn how togrow up and you can find great
therapists who will take you onthat journey of growing yourself
up emotionally.
But when you do that, when yougrow yourself up and you become
an emotional adult, you realizeyou are responsible for your own
(18:16):
happiness.
Your spouse is not yourentertainment committee they,
you know.
Like I said, I hear this allthe time I'm born in my marriage
.
My spouse never plans a date.
Okay, well, that's'm born in mymarriage.
My spouse never plans a date.
Okay, well, that's a commonproblem with women.
Their spouse never plans a date.
It's very common, especiallywith white American men.
You know, white American menare notoriously shut down,
(18:39):
invulnerable, and so they're notthat great in the relationship
department.
I'm sorry, guys, if you're inthe car listening to this.
It's true, it's true, and y'allneed to do something about this.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
She's not wrong, she's exactly.
I mean, this is what'shappening.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
No, but in light of that, you know you've got to
work with what you have.
So I tell women, you know,start focusing on the things in
your life that will make youhappy.
Have you been developing yourindividuality within the
marriage, you know, instead oflooking at him to be the one
that to make you happy?
So get yourself good on yourown, and then you learn how to
(19:19):
tell your spouse what you needor what you would like for them
to do.
And so many women go well, if Ihave to tell him it's not
important and it doesn't meananything, well, get over that.
You know my spouse is not goingto dream up and he's one of
those guys I was just talkingabout y'all.
He is not going to think ofsome big birthday extravaganza
(19:41):
for me, but I tell him about twoweeks before here's where I
want to go to eat.
Here's the friends I want youto invite to come along with us.
Here's the gift I want you togive me.
And I'm okay with that becauseI'm an emotional adult and the
thing is he takes instructionsvery well.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Now see, that does help a lot.
But you're completely right inthis, because one of the big
things in research and I'm sureyou're very familiar with the
Gottmans and all the work thatthey do and got to love him, but
with them what they weretalking about was that you are
seven times more likely to besatisfied in your relationship
If you are able to communicateyour needs to your partner, and
(20:21):
vice versa.
So what I'm hearing you say inthat moment is you communicated
to your husband what you neededin that moment and he listened
and was able to follow suit.
So that's what we're lookingfor in a relationship.
We can't just expect them toread our minds.
And if we're getting to thatplace, then I think that there
might be something more insecurehappening underneath, which is
either and we have to just behonest about this we are either
(20:42):
setting him up for failure,right, so it's like oh no, he
can't read my mind.
I guess he sucks, I guess it'stime for me to go off, or, you
know, we're just in this placewhere we don't feel like we
deserve to ask for what we need.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Oh heck, Now that one drives me crazy Again.
If you go do trauma therapy,which I highly recommend for
everybody, don't you tell me youdon't have childhood trauma,
because I know you do.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
She said it.
You heard Dr Becky say it.
Right, there Doesn't have it.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And you know how I know, because your nervous
system gets activated, right,when someone says something that
hurts your feelings, yournervous system gets activated,
you know.
If that's going on, then youhave childhood trauma.
Okay Period, end of all game.
So you have problems withemotional immaturity.
Now the problem with the dudesis my husband's responsive.
(21:32):
So that's really great.
I've got clients who tell theirhusbands what to do for their
birthdays and they're notresponsive, and therein that's
going to be a big problem.
Lack of responsiveness and Italk about this in my book lack
of responsiveness is a hugecause of divorce.
So the thing is, if you make areasonable request of your
(21:57):
spouse hey, you can't tell aspouse what to do.
You may make a request hey,honey, I request that you take
me to the Billy Joel concert,you know, and I want seats right
up front, if you don't mind.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
And maybe the VIP experience, if you can.
Thanks and table service, butokay, in your household.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
That's a reasonable request, because y'all make a
good living and all that kind ofstuff.
And so you know, if he ignoresit, then you have to say to
yourself okay, so we're married.
What the hell are we doing?
Like, if I ask you to rub myshoulders tonight for 10 minutes
, that's a reasonable requestand you don't do it, then what
the hell are we doing here?
(22:39):
And so what you learn is, inchildhood trauma, you know
there's a significant number ofthe population that is not
relational.
That's like being married to anemotional wall.
You know and you like, knock,knock who's there and they won't
come out.
That's what happened to myhusband back in the 1990s was he
was vulnerable in the beginningto reel me in and then I guess
(23:03):
something happened I'll neverknow what it was that made him
uncomfortable one day and heslammed the door in my face and
never opened it back again.
And in healthy relationships weall get zinged I write about
this in my book where yourspouse or your partner hurts
your feelings and then your wallgoes up right.
But the key to happyrelationships is bringing it
(23:25):
right back down.
You can't leave it up for weeksand months and years like my ex
did.
So these are things that youhave to be aware of.
So again, you know, if you'vegot a spouse out there that's
not responsive, then you indeedhave serious marriage problems
that may possibly lead todivorce if you can't learn to
(23:45):
accept that.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Such a good key piece here, because responsiveness
right.
If you ask him for somethingthat you need and he's unable to
give that to you, then let'sdig into that more.
Another interesting side ofthis is check in with yourself
and see in the past, when you'veasked for something and he's
given it to you, have you beenable to receive it?
(24:07):
Have you been able to actuallylovingly say thank you or
receive it in that beautifulkind of way, or is it not good
enough?
I didn't want it that way.
Can you rub my back?
Not there, don't rub it there.
Why'd you rub it there?
Are we creating a safeenvironment for him to be able
to actually be responsive?
I think is also somethingimportant.
What would you say about that?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
A story just fell in my head that's so funny, from my
husband's first marriage.
He was married for 25 years andit was a difficult marriage.
And she kicked him out after 25years and he said they were in
the marriage therapist rightbefore they got divorced.
And she was saying he neverbuys me anything, he never buys
me anything.
(24:48):
And so he said well, what aboutthat gold Rolex on your wrist?
And she said you bought it onsale.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
It wasn't good enough for her,and so why would he want to buy
her anything else if every timehe does it's not enough?
Why would he care If?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
you are complaining that someone got you a gold
Rolex on sale.
You have a problem.
I'm telling you right now.
You're right.
That's what came to mind is youcan't go.
Well, the only reason you didthis is because I asked you to
that.
I hear a lot.
If you do stuff like that, thenthe men are going to go into
(25:34):
their emotional cave and they'regoing to stay in isolation
indefinitely.
And part of having a greatrelationship is we have to make
it safe for them to come out andbe vulnerable with us, and vice
versa.
Right, so you can't insult themwhen they come out and make a.
You know, let's say, they makean effort that's kind of lame,
(25:58):
you know, then you don't ripthem up for their lame effort.
That's not going to fly.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Speaking of funny stories, I was divorced in a
similar situation.
Terrible, toxic blah, blah,blah got reburied.
Found myself bringing some ofthat into the relationship again
without realizing it.
So my now husband cooks thisdinner, does all of this stuff,
and I sit down to eat it and thefirst thing that comes out of
my mouth is why is this broccoliso mushy?
Here he is taking this time tocook and be lovely for us.
(26:25):
It's not.
Usually he doesn't do it.
He doesn't like cooking.
I love doing it, it's noproblem, but do you hear that?
So why would he then want tocook again if I'm just putting
him down and putting him down?
Thankfully, thank God, I have avery secure husband now who
later on told me hey, thatdidn't feel very good when you
said the broccoli was mushy.
Could you maybe tell me how youlike to cook it next time?
(26:46):
And I was like what did I do todeserve you?
You're amazing.
Thank you for putting me in myplace, but that's right.
We need to be also creatingthose safe spaces, and if you're
out there thinking, yeah, well,he doesn't do a safe space for
me, then again I think we're atthe place where Dr Becky says
you need to go and find someoneto help you through this, then
Well, right, I mean, if yourhusband doesn't want to go to
marriage therapy or doesn't wantto work on this, or he's
(27:09):
reluctant to, you can stillchange the relationship by
changing yourself.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
You know and that is a theme of marriage and family
therapy, of which I am amarriage and family therapist
when you go to school, we'retaught, first and foremost, that
a family is a system, foremostthat a family is a system, and
if one person in the familychanges, it will change every
other member of the dynamic insome way, shape or form, and so
that's why, if you ever hear atherapist, go go by yourself.
That's why that's why you know,and I remember, when I was
(27:43):
about two years before mymarriage crisis, I started
thinking I may have to be singlehere, you know, and I'm a
housewife.
So I went back to grad school.
I wasn't studying counseling atthat time, I was in
communication because I wantedto be in journalism.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Cool Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
And my husband told me later he realized that I was
sort of prepping a nest, youknow, for divorce to be able to
support myself.
But again, if you go out andbecome the hero of your family,
it just takes one person.
The thing is I've had clientsthat started working out and
(28:20):
they lost a bunch of weight andall that stuff and it scared
their husbands to death andtheir husband's like wait a
minute, what's going on here?
And they wanted to makethemselves better now because
they now felt like other menwere going to be coming after
their wives.
So it's just crazy, in thedifferent ways that you make
changes, that it's going toaffect your husband and perhaps
(28:41):
or your spouse and motivate themto do something too.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Exactly Because you don't motivate them by nagging
them, telling them to eat better.
Maybe you just motivate them byreading more in their presence
or cooking better, healthierfoods or, like you said, being
able to go and make yourselfmore secure.
A lot of women will come to meand ask Jen, how do I get him to
look up his attachment style,how do I get him to heal his
attachment style?
And I say you don't.
And if you're thinking that way, we're still going in that
(29:07):
anxious spiral.
So let's like pull back, slowdown, as you said earlier, and
really see that the studies show, the research shows that all it
takes is one person in therelationship to become more
secure and it actually can growthat other person.
So there's two ways this isgoing to go and let me know if
this tracks with what you knowin your area, dr Becky is this
(29:28):
is going to go one of two ways.
You're gonna become more secureand either he's not gonna like
that because it's gonnainstigate his own insecurities,
his own childhood wounds, andhe's not gonna like your new
secure self and so he might pullaway.
Or you're gonna become moresecure and it's gonna level him
up.
But what I say to that is bothof those seem like pretty good
(29:48):
options to me, because what'sthe alternative?
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I think that nervous systems regulate one another,
you know, and so one of thereasons I fell in love with my
husband is he has the calmestnervous system in the world.
And by the time I was datinghim, you know, about 15 years
ago, I was just.
I was out of grad school forlike six or seven years and I
was well aware of attachmentstyles and I had always been
(30:13):
anxious, attached, and of courseI attracted these avoidant men
and, you know, went in therubber band push pull, push pull
, push pull.
That we all hate, right.
So I made it my business tofind a secure, attached man,
like that was an absolute musthave.
So what I love about him is,you know, he can give me all the
(30:34):
space in the world.
I need to go write a book or,you know, do a podcast on a
evening after work or whatever,and he's totally happy for me
and he'll give me all the spaceI want.
But if I want to get someloving, then he's open for that
too.
I call it ambidextrousattachment.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I love that.
That's my favorite word.
I love that, so there's nodoubt.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
And so what happened with him being so secure
attached?
In the beginning of ourrelationship I did have some
insecurity because, like so manywomen, we're so ridiculous.
We sit around going does helike me?
Does he like me?
Does he like me, does he likeme?
Well, as soon as I realized,damn it, he does like me, like
he's really crazy about me, thenI was able to become a secure
(31:21):
attached person too with him,and my anxious attached days are
long gone.
I have not felt that in a long,long time, 15 years probably.
So if you're single, by God,lord, have mercy, find us a
secure attached person.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, and the fun part about that is, if you are
finding yourself out theredating and you're just not
attracted to the secure people,then pull back a little bit from
dating, get yourself a littlebit more secure and then go back
out there.
Right, you'll notice it.
It'll be this pendulation ofbeing like okay, I went out
there, I'm just not attracted tothis guy.
It's usually a high chance thatyou're still in a non-secure
(32:03):
attachment stance happening, sopull back.
With all of that said, dr Becky, thank you so much for sharing
your story today.
This has been such a joy to getto know you.
I love your energy, I loveeverything.
Tell us a little bit more aboutyour book, where people can go
and find it and how else canthey reach you?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Okay.
So the book is.
I Think I Want Out what to Dowhen One of you Wants to End
your Marriage.
It's for people that can alsojust thinking they might be
unhappy in their marriage.
It'd be the perfect book foryou and it's available at all
booksellers like Barnes, noble,amazon, and it's in Kindle
format and hard copy and audiobook and, fortunately for y'all,
(32:40):
I do read the audio book.
If you don't like my voice, getthe Kindle.
The other thing is is I am somad about how our culture lets
us down, about teaching us howto be healthy as adults and
healthy in relationships, thatI'm an angry blogger and I blog
prolifically on the mediumplatform teaching everybody
(33:04):
everything I know aboutrelationships, and so you'll
find me on the Medium platformat Dr Becky spell out Dr Becky
or Becky Whetstone and then mywebsite is
marriagecrisismanagercom and youcan contact me through that.
And don't ever confuse me withthe Dr Becky, who is the child
(33:25):
psychologist, please.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Good to know You're going to go to.
It's a marriagecrisismanagercomand are you currently taking on
clients?
If someone is?
Out there right now and they'relistening and they're like oh
my gosh, I need Dr Becky.
She's exactly what.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I need Great.
I see adult individuals and Isee couples.
You don't have to be inmarriage crisis to see me.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
And you take clients online and all types.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Absolutely.
You can go to my website rightnow and purchase a session with
me, and we'll probably meetwithin a week.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Perfect.
If you are out there right nowand you are in a place where you
are just feeling like yourmarriage is at that crisis
moment, I highly recommend goingto Dr Becky's website.
It was marriagecrisismanagercom.
Go there, check her out, getthe book, read her blogs.
I'm going to go and read thoseblogs because I love me a good,
feisty, frustrated woman andlike the systems that hold us
(34:15):
back always really gets me going.
So I love that so much.
And, dr Becky, thank you somuch for coming on today's
podcast.
I hope to have you back againone day and I hope you have a
beautiful day.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Thank you so much.
I so appreciate it.
Bye everybody.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
All right, everyone, I hope you enjoyed this
conversation as much as I did.
Isn't Dr Becky just freakingamazing?
I could have talked to her forjust hours afterwards.
I wanted to pick her brainabout so much.
I was so grateful that she tookthe time to come on to the
podcast and tell us all abouther expertise, tell us about
what she knows, tell us abouther own life experience and what
(34:53):
to do when you are in thatmarriage crisis.
So if you're out there right nowand again you are in a
relationship where you feel likeyou are at crisis mode, just
remember that there's a lot wecan do to fix that.
Remember that all it takes isone person to get into their
secure nature and it has thepotential to level up the entire
(35:13):
family.
So keep that in mind as you areworking through your own
attachment styles, as you areworking through your own healing
journey, that we don't have tofocus on everyone else around us
.
We are going to focusinternally now and from that we
are going to level up.
So again, if you're out thereright now and you're thinking, I
really, really want to heal Jen, I just don't know where to get
(35:33):
started, then I highly highlysuggest you come and join our
free Facebook community.
You can go on there and searchfor Speak Honest, secure
Communication for Women, or goahead and scroll on down to the
show notes.
Right now, just go, scroll, goon.
I want to see you scroll,scroll, scroll, scroll.
Click on that link and join theFacebook community.
You're going to answer a couplequestions, we're going to let
you write in and then we'regoing to say hi and you're going
(35:55):
to get invested with otherwomen that are going through
what you are going through,because, girl, you are not alone
and you are not meant to dothis alone.
We are here for you.
We got you Now.
I will speak with you all nextweek.
Take care, as we wrap uptoday's conversation, always
(36:17):
remember that healing is ajourney, not a destination, and
it is an honor to be a part ofyour healing journey.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we covered today, be
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode
right there, and please rememberto rate, review and subscribe
if you enjoyed today's podcast.
(36:38):
Your feedback means the worldto us and helps others discover
our podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to another episode of Speak
Honest.
I am Jen Noble, your go-torelationship coach, and on
today's episode, I had the honorof getting to talk to Dr Becky.
(00:49):
Dr Becky Whetstone is a marriageand family therapist.
She is a compassionate expertdedicated to guiding individuals
through their most challengingtimes.
She offers intelligent,thoughtful decision-making and
action-taking for people inmarriage crisis.
Over the years, she hassupported thousands of couples
navigating the turbulent watersof marital crisis.
(01:12):
If you out there right now arein a marriage and you are at a
place where you are not surewhether or not you can make this
work, I highly recommendlistening to this episode with
Dr Becky.
We also just talk about how tomake relationships work.
That was some of the best partsof this conversation with her.
It also taught me that we'renever too old to start.
Dr Becky went back to schoolafter the age of 40, and it
(01:35):
really resonated with my ownpersonal story of, okay, I want
to go out there, I want to getthose credentials and I want to
do this thing.
And so if you're out there andyou're wondering what am I
supposed to do with the rest ofmy life Jen, I just hit 40.
I don't know what to do, justlisten to her story.
It's so inspirational.
And if you're sitting out thereright now and you're thinking I
(01:56):
really want to be with otherwomen like this, I wish I was
sitting in the room with DrBecky and Jen having this
conversation.
Well, I want to invite you tojoin our free Facebook community
.
You can join at any time.
You can just go on Facebook andyou can search Speak Honest,
secure Communication for Women,and you're going to be able to
find the Facebook right there.
If, for some reason, you cannotfind it, go ahead and scroll on
(02:16):
down to the show notes.
You can click on the link inthe show notes.
It'll take you straight to theFacebook group.
You're going to answer a coupleof questions just so we can get
to know you.
Make sure that you are who yousay you are so we can keep it a
safe environment for only womenwho are looking to heal their
relationships.
If that sounds like you, wewould love to have you in the
group Now.
I hope you enjoy my conversationwith Dr Becky.
(02:38):
Hello everyone, I am so excitedto get to talk with Dr Becky
Whetstone today Now, if you areunfamiliar with her work, I
recommend going out and Googlingher right now.
But she has the most fantasticbook and it is called.
I Think I Want Out what to Dowhen One of you Wants to End the
(03:00):
Marriage Oof.
The title of that book Dr Beckyeven just gets to me.
I think I want out.
I've been there.
Go ahead, introduce yourself,tell us a little bit about
yourself and say hi.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, first of all, hi everyone, and thank you so
much for having me on the show.
It's just, I feel like I'mfamous all of a sudden to be on
your show.
This is an incredibleopportunity.
Yeah, I've been relationshipobsessed my whole life since
childhood.
I used to scour advice columnsand I felt like that's what I
(03:29):
wanted to do when I grew up.
So I did.
I'm a writer, I've always been awriter, and I went and majored
in journalism in college andwhat I did was I went to Texas
to marry a Texan and I did notstart writing.
I got married and became ahousewife and I quickly realized
I did not enjoy being ahousewife at all, that I needed
(03:50):
to find a career for myself.
So back then I was pretty lost.
But what I did know is I'dmarried this fabulous man who
was my dream come true.
He was so loving and cute andsuccessful and six months into
our marriage he slammed the dooron me emotionally, went cold on
(04:11):
me like a bright light todarkness, and I spent the next
five years trying to get him tocome back out and love me and
pay attention to me and date meand, you know, be loving again.
He never would.
So we had two little kids andin about the eighth year I went
(04:32):
through kind of what you wouldcall a midlife crisis.
I just could not stand to bearound him anymore.
I just sat him down one dayafter work and I said I don't
think I want to be marriedanymore.
I know I need a separation.
I don't know if I want adivorce.
I don't know anything.
I just need to get away fromyou.
So we went to a marriagetherapist seeking advice and the
(04:56):
marriage therapist sent us homeand said if you don't want to
work on your marriage, I can'thelp you.
So we managed our marriagecrisis ourselves.
We separated ourselves.
We made the biggest mess.
We ended up, in my opinion,prematurely divorced.
I think if we'd have had theright care and someone telling
us and normalizing kind of whatwas going on, that we could have
(05:20):
found our way back to eachother.
But instead we tore up the townand ended up having this awful
divorce and it never set wellwith me that the therapist
couldn't help us.
And in our town we went to theguy who was the guy, the main
guy, the most respected guy intown and he couldn't help us.
(05:40):
So I sat on that for a while.
We got divorced.
I did go get a job for anewspaper.
I became a feature writer and acolumnist for the San Antonio
Express News.
I started writing aboutrelationships, very much like
Carrie Bradshaw in Sex and theCity.
I talked about the woes ofbeing a single mom and it was
(06:02):
extremely popular and I becameknown as a relationship guru in
San Antonio and I was on a bunchof radio shows and the local TV
shows.
But the callers would call inand complain that I had no
credentials.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I know that feeling, I really feel that.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I know, and it's just agonizing Just because you
didn't go to plant schooldoesn't mean that you can't grow
excellent plants, you know?
I mean I don't understand this,but anyway, I went to grad
school to shut people up becausepeople were going get a mail
order degree and I'm like, no,if Becky's going to do this,
she's going to do it legit.
(06:40):
So I went to grad school tobecome a marriage and family
therapist and I really fell inlove with what I was learning.
That really deepened me as arelationship guru kind of person
.
It really I don't know.
And the thing I discovered, too, was academic research, as
opposed to just reading magazinearticles or someone's book on
(07:03):
the shelf.
I was going to the library andpulling up journals and studies
and I learned the importance ofresearch, and so I made it my
business to look up marriagecrisis and I found all this
mother load of information.
That was so incredible and Ilove this so much.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
So let me back up real quick because I want to get
the timeline set here.
So around when did you go backto school?
Because I think this is soimportant.
We have a lot of listeners, alot of women out there and
they're kind of starting over.
They've been divorced.
Honestly, I'm hearing a lot ofmy own story, which is I'm a
relationship coach, and a lot oftimes people are like, yeah,
but what the fuck do you know?
So I'm back in school to get mydegree in order to have that
(07:43):
clout.
So I totally get you.
I love this so much.
It just keeps happening.
But I get it right.
We want to be safe in whatwe're understanding.
But, if you don't mind measking, how about?
How old were you when you wentback to school?
42.
Yes, girl.
Oh, that makes me so excited.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I wasn't the oldest person in my cohort, not at all.
There's quite a few people andI've got clients.
Now they're like I'm 50 and Ijust started counseling school
and I'm like so what?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So what?
Get out there and do it.
It's never too late.
No, it is never too late.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
That is a huge.
You know, I finished when I was47.
It's so funny because thepeople I went to school with,
the younger ones, are now theage I was when I was in graduate
school, and we laugh about that.
That's so funny.
I had young teens back then andnow they have young teens.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, some of my friends are like in their 20s
because I meet them in collegeand I'm like a 40-year-old.
But anyway, it's like gettingoff sidetracked here.
But I think it's so importantfor people to see that, even if
the marriage doesn't work out,or even if it is that they need
to start over in life, that it'snot forever right.
Like you get back in there, youkeep growing, you keep going.
And look what Dr Becky hasbecome.
(08:50):
She is now the relationshipguru, she now has the letters
after her name and she is doingit.
So tell me more about this book.
So I think I want out.
Is this for women who know theywant the divorce or is this for
women who want to save themarriage?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
The people that are certain they want a divorce.
That's about 1% of thepopulation.
Most people are nagged withdoubts and they're anguishing
over whether to stay or go.
So what has happened in amarriage crisis is someone has
reached that crescendo of stresswhere they're just about to
lose their mind and they can'ttake it anymore and they go.
(09:27):
I think I want out or I'munhappy in the marriage, they
sort of burst a bubble andcreate this crisis situation and
when that happens, each spousetheir nervous systems fire up
and they go into the fight,flight and freeze response.
When you go in the fight,flight and freeze response, you
cannot think clearly, you cannotact rationally, you won't even
(09:47):
remember most of theconversations that you have.
Your digestion stops.
It's crazy.
And this activation of thenervous system goes on for
months and they're sitting theredeciding where they want to
stay or go while their nervoussystems are all activated and
I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no.
Now I learned in the research.
(10:08):
You know that we need to getpeople stabilized and calm them
down and tell them we're in nohurry to make a decision.
Let's just slow this down andwe'll get you calmed down.
And then, once you're more calm, then we will have adult
conversations.
Look under the hood of yourmarriage, see what we're dealing
with and see what thepossibilities are.
(10:30):
I also have to figure out earlyon whether they would benefit
from a separation.
If they do, I want them to doit not the way my husband and I
did, with no rhyme reason ortimeline.
I want them to work with atherapist who has a timeframe
(10:50):
set up for them weekly or everyother week, meetings with their
therapist overseeing theseparation, making sure they're
behaving themselves.
They're following the rules.
I have rules and they're verystrict.
You're not supposed to talk toeach other when you're separated
.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Okay, this is great.
Can we dive into this?
Because I'm hearing you say ifyou want to go, a separation
that is not the end of yourrelationship, Because you hear
this all the time oh, if you'regoing to separate, you might as
well divorce.
But that's just not true is it?
That's what negative Nelliesaid, so what I'm hearing you
say, though, also, is don't justseparate without a plan.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
No, otherwise I mean I'm sure you've heard of couples
that end up in separation limboand it just goes on and on and
on and on and on and they didn'tdo the work that they should
have been doing through thattime to get themselves healthier
as individuals and to belearning what a healthy
relationship is.
If you're not doing the work onyourself and learning to
(11:48):
understand relationship dynamics, then if you reconcile, the
research shows that 85% of youwill end up divorced within six
months.
So in my separation, it'smandatory that you get
individual therapy.
It's mandatory that yourseparation be overseen by
someone like me.
(12:08):
I call myself a marriage crisismanager and you're not allowed
to talk because the reason youseparate it is because whoever
the decider is, whoever thatperson is that thinks they want
a divorce, I want them to try itbefore they do it, because a
lot of people get divorced.
Then they go wait a minute, Idon't like this.
(12:29):
And they call me and go Becky,can you help me get my spouse
back?
And I'm like let's have youhave a trial divorce where you
don't speak to each other duringthis.
See if you miss your person,see if you recognize maybe
benefits that they brought toyour life that you didn't notice
before and you know, get someperspective on what being single
(12:52):
is, because if you get a flattire, you're going to have to
call triple A, like singlepeople do, instead of your
spouse.
So I find that you know, when acouple's stuck in a negative
cycle of behaviors, one of theways we create change is by
shaking up the system.
So the separation is meant toshake up the system and get them
(13:15):
to hopefully build motivationto want to save the marriage.
But there's a certainpercentage that are going to go
separate and they're going to go.
I love this.
I'm the happiest I've been Inthose cases.
I'd like to see those go aslong as six months, because some
people are high in thebeginning and excited to be away
from their spouse, but three,four, five, six months into it
(13:39):
they start getting restless andthey don't like it.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I love that you bring this up, because I've talked
about this before, which is kindof this, so a thing that I love
talking about.
I'm attachment focusedrelationship coach, right, so
I'll talk about attachmentstyles like all day, every day,
it's my passion.
But what I talk about isespecially for those
disorganized folks, those ladiesthat kind of want to pull them
in close but then push them away.
When you first get single, it'salmost like you have your own
(14:03):
honeymoon period.
Do you see this happen as well?
This sounds like what you'resaying, and so it's like oh,
look at me, I'm going out withthe girls every night, like I'm
going out to the clubs, I'mhaving such a good time, I'm
doing all this and then all of asudden, just like all
relationships, it kind ofsettles down and it's a little
bit boring and you're like waita second, this isn't what I
thought it was going to be.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
That's exactly right.
When my husband left the firstnight he was gone.
I remember jumping on our kingsize bed, jumping up and down,
singing ding dong the asshole'sgone.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I love it so much.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
He would never let me listen to music in the house or
in the car, and I had playedmusic for two years without ever
turning it off.
I was just like.
It was like a thirsty girl, youknow, just down in the water.
You know everything he forbidme to do.
I wanted to do it.
So this was a true like midlifecrisis where I was in a
rebellious mode, you know, andI'm like I love being away from
(14:59):
him.
This is fabulous.
But about a year later I went.
What the hell did?
I just do?
I came back.
When you're in a midlife crisis,you are in the fight, flight or
freeze response.
I say your IQ drops by 20points.
But that's not a fact.
It just seems that way becausea person is so self-oriented in
(15:20):
a negative way, they're veryself-centered and narcissistic
to the extreme degree for aperiod of time and they're not
reachable.
You can't pull them out of it.
So they kind of got to go tearup the town and come back to
reality, and so you look at itas like in the beginning of the
relationship, they're over here,conforming and sacrificing,
(15:41):
giving up a lot of who they areso they could be married, and
they got nothing out of that.
They're so mad that they spentall that time trying to get
someone to love them and theynever got that.
So now they swing all over tothis other side and say it's all
about me and to hell witheverybody else.
Now they're going to come backto the middle.
(16:01):
It usually takes about twoyears, but in my case it was a
year when I came back down andgot grounded and looked around
and I was divorced and he wasdating somebody seriously
already and he wouldn't eventalk to me about possibly
(16:22):
reconciling or going to amarriage therapist or anything
like that.
So that informed me that peopleneed to take their time, and I
wish someone had explained thenervous system part to me back
then that I was temporarilyinsane and I couldn't help it.
And that's normal.
(16:43):
It's normal to be temporarilyinsane when you are in the fight
.
Fight or freeze response.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
It's so important to really kind of get that across.
If you're in this big moment,you're having this midlife
crisis, if you're feeling like Idon't know if I could just stay
with the same man for the next20 years of my life, I don't
know what I'm going to do,you're normal, it happens, and
is there a way for?
Let's say, there's a woman outthere listening and she's been
with her husband eight, nine, 10years and she's kind of hitting
that stage.
(17:10):
You know he's becoming a littlebit more avoidant, she's
getting a little bit moreanxious.
He's not giving her enough ofwhat she needs.
The relationship isn't at aplace where she wants to
necessarily leave, but she alsocan't keep going on like this.
What can she do within therelationship?
Is there ever a chance for justthe woman to kind of get
herself kind of in a place whereshe feels a little bit more
(17:30):
secure, without having to go tohim and say I think I want out
First?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
of all.
I think the biggest problem Isee in marriage period is that
we're emotionally immature inour relationships and that's
caused by our childhood issues.
It makes us emotionallyimmature so we're emotional
children in our relationshipsand that's caused by our
childhood issues.
It makes us emotionallyimmature.
So we're emotional children inour relationships.
We do crazy things like poutand give our spouse the silent
treatment and slam doors.
(17:55):
That's childish, okay.
So people need to learn how togrow up and you can find great
therapists who will take you onthat journey of growing yourself
up emotionally.
But when you do that, when yougrow yourself up and you become
an emotional adult, you realizeyou are responsible for your own
(18:16):
happiness.
Your spouse is not yourentertainment committee they,
you know.
Like I said, I hear this allthe time I'm born in my marriage
.
My spouse never plans a date.
Okay, well, that's'm born in mymarriage.
My spouse never plans a date.
Okay, well, that's a commonproblem with women.
Their spouse never plans a date.
It's very common, especiallywith white American men.
You know, white American menare notoriously shut down,
(18:39):
invulnerable, and so they're notthat great in the relationship
department.
I'm sorry, guys, if you're inthe car listening to this.
It's true, it's true, and y'allneed to do something about this.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
She's not wrong, she's exactly.
I mean, this is what'shappening.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
No, but in light of that, you know you've got to
work with what you have.
So I tell women, you know,start focusing on the things in
your life that will make youhappy.
Have you been developing yourindividuality within the
marriage, you know, instead oflooking at him to be the one
that to make you happy?
So get yourself good on yourown, and then you learn how to
(19:19):
tell your spouse what you needor what you would like for them
to do.
And so many women go well, if Ihave to tell him it's not
important and it doesn't meananything, well, get over that.
You know my spouse is not goingto dream up and he's one of
those guys I was just talkingabout y'all.
He is not going to think ofsome big birthday extravaganza
(19:41):
for me, but I tell him about twoweeks before here's where I
want to go to eat.
Here's the friends I want youto invite to come along with us.
Here's the gift I want you togive me.
And I'm okay with that becauseI'm an emotional adult and the
thing is he takes instructionsvery well.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Now see, that does help a lot.
But you're completely right inthis, because one of the big
things in research and I'm sureyou're very familiar with the
Gottmans and all the work thatthey do and got to love him, but
with them what they weretalking about was that you are
seven times more likely to besatisfied in your relationship
If you are able to communicateyour needs to your partner, and
(20:21):
vice versa.
So what I'm hearing you say inthat moment is you communicated
to your husband what you neededin that moment and he listened
and was able to follow suit.
So that's what we're lookingfor in a relationship.
We can't just expect them toread our minds.
And if we're getting to thatplace, then I think that there
might be something more insecurehappening underneath, which is
either and we have to just behonest about this we are either
(20:42):
setting him up for failure,right, so it's like oh no, he
can't read my mind.
I guess he sucks, I guess it'stime for me to go off, or, you
know, we're just in this placewhere we don't feel like we
deserve to ask for what we need.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Oh heck, Now that one drives me crazy Again.
If you go do trauma therapy,which I highly recommend for
everybody, don't you tell me youdon't have childhood trauma,
because I know you do.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
She said it.
You heard Dr Becky say it.
Right, there Doesn't have it.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And you know how I know, because your nervous
system gets activated, right,when someone says something that
hurts your feelings, yournervous system gets activated,
you know.
If that's going on, then youhave childhood trauma.
Okay Period, end of all game.
So you have problems withemotional immaturity.
Now the problem with the dudesis my husband's responsive.
(21:32):
So that's really great.
I've got clients who tell theirhusbands what to do for their
birthdays and they're notresponsive, and therein that's
going to be a big problem.
Lack of responsiveness and Italk about this in my book lack
of responsiveness is a hugecause of divorce.
So the thing is, if you make areasonable request of your
(21:57):
spouse hey, you can't tell aspouse what to do.
You may make a request hey,honey, I request that you take
me to the Billy Joel concert,you know, and I want seats right
up front, if you don't mind.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
And maybe the VIP experience, if you can.
Thanks and table service, butokay, in your household.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
That's a reasonable request, because y'all make a
good living and all that kind ofstuff.
And so you know, if he ignoresit, then you have to say to
yourself okay, so we're married.
What the hell are we doing?
Like, if I ask you to rub myshoulders tonight for 10 minutes
, that's a reasonable requestand you don't do it, then what
the hell are we doing here?
(22:39):
And so what you learn is, inchildhood trauma, you know
there's a significant number ofthe population that is not
relational.
That's like being married to anemotional wall.
You know and you like, knock,knock who's there and they won't
come out.
That's what happened to myhusband back in the 1990s was he
was vulnerable in the beginningto reel me in and then I guess
(23:03):
something happened I'll neverknow what it was that made him
uncomfortable one day and heslammed the door in my face and
never opened it back again.
And in healthy relationships weall get zinged I write about
this in my book where yourspouse or your partner hurts
your feelings and then your wallgoes up right.
But the key to happyrelationships is bringing it
(23:25):
right back down.
You can't leave it up for weeksand months and years like my ex
did.
So these are things that youhave to be aware of.
So again, you know, if you'vegot a spouse out there that's
not responsive, then you indeedhave serious marriage problems
that may possibly lead todivorce if you can't learn to
(23:45):
accept that.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Such a good key piece here, because responsiveness
right.
If you ask him for somethingthat you need and he's unable to
give that to you, then let'sdig into that more.
Another interesting side ofthis is check in with yourself
and see in the past, when you'veasked for something and he's
given it to you, have you beenable to receive it?
(24:07):
Have you been able to actuallylovingly say thank you or
receive it in that beautifulkind of way, or is it not good
enough?
I didn't want it that way.
Can you rub my back?
Not there, don't rub it there.
Why'd you rub it there?
Are we creating a safeenvironment for him to be able
to actually be responsive?
I think is also somethingimportant.
What would you say about that?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
A story just fell in my head that's so funny, from my
husband's first marriage.
He was married for 25 years andit was a difficult marriage.
And she kicked him out after 25years and he said they were in
the marriage therapist rightbefore they got divorced.
And she was saying he neverbuys me anything, he never buys
me anything.
(24:48):
And so he said well, what aboutthat gold Rolex on your wrist?
And she said you bought it onsale.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
It wasn't good enough for her,and so why would he want to buy
her anything else if every timehe does it's not enough?
Why would he care If?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
you are complaining that someone got you a gold
Rolex on sale.
You have a problem.
I'm telling you right now.
You're right.
That's what came to mind is youcan't go.
Well, the only reason you didthis is because I asked you to
that.
I hear a lot.
If you do stuff like that, thenthe men are going to go into
(25:34):
their emotional cave and they'regoing to stay in isolation
indefinitely.
And part of having a greatrelationship is we have to make
it safe for them to come out andbe vulnerable with us, and vice
versa.
Right, so you can't insult themwhen they come out and make a.
You know, let's say, they makean effort that's kind of lame,
(25:58):
you know, then you don't ripthem up for their lame effort.
That's not going to fly.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Speaking of funny stories, I was divorced in a
similar situation.
Terrible, toxic blah, blah,blah got reburied.
Found myself bringing some ofthat into the relationship again
without realizing it.
So my now husband cooks thisdinner, does all of this stuff,
and I sit down to eat it and thefirst thing that comes out of
my mouth is why is this broccoliso mushy?
Here he is taking this time tocook and be lovely for us.
(26:25):
It's not.
Usually he doesn't do it.
He doesn't like cooking.
I love doing it, it's noproblem, but do you hear that?
So why would he then want tocook again if I'm just putting
him down and putting him down?
Thankfully, thank God, I have avery secure husband now who
later on told me hey, thatdidn't feel very good when you
said the broccoli was mushy.
Could you maybe tell me how youlike to cook it next time?
(26:46):
And I was like what did I do todeserve you?
You're amazing.
Thank you for putting me in myplace, but that's right.
We need to be also creatingthose safe spaces, and if you're
out there thinking, yeah, well,he doesn't do a safe space for
me, then again I think we're atthe place where Dr Becky says
you need to go and find someoneto help you through this, then
Well, right, I mean, if yourhusband doesn't want to go to
marriage therapy or doesn't wantto work on this, or he's
(27:09):
reluctant to, you can stillchange the relationship by
changing yourself.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
You know and that is a theme of marriage and family
therapy, of which I am amarriage and family therapist
when you go to school, we'retaught, first and foremost, that
a family is a system, foremostthat a family is a system, and
if one person in the familychanges, it will change every
other member of the dynamic insome way, shape or form, and so
that's why, if you ever hear atherapist, go go by yourself.
That's why that's why you know,and I remember, when I was
(27:43):
about two years before mymarriage crisis, I started
thinking I may have to be singlehere, you know, and I'm a
housewife.
So I went back to grad school.
I wasn't studying counseling atthat time, I was in
communication because I wantedto be in journalism.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Cool Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
And my husband told me later he realized that I was
sort of prepping a nest, youknow, for divorce to be able to
support myself.
But again, if you go out andbecome the hero of your family,
it just takes one person.
The thing is I've had clientsthat started working out and
(28:20):
they lost a bunch of weight andall that stuff and it scared
their husbands to death andtheir husband's like wait a
minute, what's going on here?
And they wanted to makethemselves better now because
they now felt like other menwere going to be coming after
their wives.
So it's just crazy, in thedifferent ways that you make
changes, that it's going toaffect your husband and perhaps
(28:41):
or your spouse and motivate themto do something too.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Exactly Because you don't motivate them by nagging
them, telling them to eat better.
Maybe you just motivate them byreading more in their presence
or cooking better, healthierfoods or, like you said, being
able to go and make yourselfmore secure.
A lot of women will come to meand ask Jen, how do I get him to
look up his attachment style,how do I get him to heal his
attachment style?
And I say you don't.
And if you're thinking that way, we're still going in that
(29:07):
anxious spiral.
So let's like pull back, slowdown, as you said earlier, and
really see that the studies show, the research shows that all it
takes is one person in therelationship to become more
secure and it actually can growthat other person.
So there's two ways this isgoing to go and let me know if
this tracks with what you knowin your area, dr Becky is this
(29:28):
is going to go one of two ways.
You're gonna become more secureand either he's not gonna like
that because it's gonnainstigate his own insecurities,
his own childhood wounds, andhe's not gonna like your new
secure self and so he might pullaway.
Or you're gonna become moresecure and it's gonna level him
up.
But what I say to that is bothof those seem like pretty good
(29:48):
options to me, because what'sthe alternative?
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I think that nervous systems regulate one another,
you know, and so one of thereasons I fell in love with my
husband is he has the calmestnervous system in the world.
And by the time I was datinghim, you know, about 15 years
ago, I was just.
I was out of grad school forlike six or seven years and I
was well aware of attachmentstyles and I had always been
(30:13):
anxious, attached, and of courseI attracted these avoidant men
and, you know, went in therubber band push pull, push pull
, push pull.
That we all hate, right.
So I made it my business tofind a secure, attached man,
like that was an absolute musthave.
So what I love about him is,you know, he can give me all the
(30:34):
space in the world.
I need to go write a book or,you know, do a podcast on a
evening after work or whatever,and he's totally happy for me
and he'll give me all the spaceI want.
But if I want to get someloving, then he's open for that
too.
I call it ambidextrousattachment.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I love that.
That's my favorite word.
I love that, so there's nodoubt.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
And so what happened with him being so secure
attached?
In the beginning of ourrelationship I did have some
insecurity because, like so manywomen, we're so ridiculous.
We sit around going does helike me?
Does he like me?
Does he like me, does he likeme?
Well, as soon as I realized,damn it, he does like me, like
he's really crazy about me, thenI was able to become a secure
(31:21):
attached person too with him,and my anxious attached days are
long gone.
I have not felt that in a long,long time, 15 years probably.
So if you're single, by God,lord, have mercy, find us a
secure attached person.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, and the fun part about that is, if you are
finding yourself out theredating and you're just not
attracted to the secure people,then pull back a little bit from
dating, get yourself a littlebit more secure and then go back
out there.
Right, you'll notice it.
It'll be this pendulation ofbeing like okay, I went out
there, I'm just not attracted tothis guy.
It's usually a high chance thatyou're still in a non-secure
(32:03):
attachment stance happening, sopull back.
With all of that said, dr Becky, thank you so much for sharing
your story today.
This has been such a joy to getto know you.
I love your energy, I loveeverything.
Tell us a little bit more aboutyour book, where people can go
and find it and how else canthey reach you?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Okay.
So the book is.
I Think I Want Out what to Dowhen One of you Wants to End
your Marriage.
It's for people that can alsojust thinking they might be
unhappy in their marriage.
It'd be the perfect book foryou and it's available at all
booksellers like Barnes, noble,amazon, and it's in Kindle
format and hard copy and audiobook and, fortunately for y'all,
(32:40):
I do read the audio book.
If you don't like my voice, getthe Kindle.
The other thing is is I am somad about how our culture lets
us down, about teaching us howto be healthy as adults and
healthy in relationships, thatI'm an angry blogger and I blog
prolifically on the mediumplatform teaching everybody
(33:04):
everything I know aboutrelationships, and so you'll
find me on the Medium platformat Dr Becky spell out Dr Becky
or Becky Whetstone and then mywebsite is
marriagecrisismanagercom and youcan contact me through that.
And don't ever confuse me withthe Dr Becky, who is the child
(33:25):
psychologist, please.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Good to know You're going to go to.
It's a marriagecrisismanagercomand are you currently taking on
clients?
If someone is?
Out there right now and they'relistening and they're like oh
my gosh, I need Dr Becky.
She's exactly what.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I need Great.
I see adult individuals and Isee couples.
You don't have to be inmarriage crisis to see me.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
And you take clients online and all types.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Absolutely.
You can go to my website rightnow and purchase a session with
me, and we'll probably meetwithin a week.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Perfect.
If you are out there right nowand you are in a place where you
are just feeling like yourmarriage is at that crisis
moment, I highly recommend goingto Dr Becky's website.
It was marriagecrisismanagercom.
Go there, check her out, getthe book, read her blogs.
I'm going to go and read thoseblogs because I love me a good,
feisty, frustrated woman andlike the systems that hold us
(34:15):
back always really gets me going.
So I love that so much.
And, dr Becky, thank you somuch for coming on today's
podcast.
I hope to have you back againone day and I hope you have a
beautiful day.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Thank you so much.
I so appreciate it.
Bye everybody.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
All right, everyone, I hope you enjoyed this
conversation as much as I did.
Isn't Dr Becky just freakingamazing?
I could have talked to her forjust hours afterwards.
I wanted to pick her brainabout so much.
I was so grateful that she tookthe time to come on to the
podcast and tell us all abouther expertise, tell us about
what she knows, tell us abouther own life experience and what
(34:53):
to do when you are in thatmarriage crisis.
So if you're out there right nowand again you are in a
relationship where you feel likeyou are at crisis mode, just
remember that there's a lot wecan do to fix that.
Remember that all it takes isone person to get into their
secure nature and it has thepotential to level up the entire
(35:13):
family.
So keep that in mind as you areworking through your own
attachment styles, as you areworking through your own healing
journey, that we don't have tofocus on everyone else around us
.
We are going to focusinternally now and from that we
are going to level up.
So again, if you're out thereright now and you're thinking, I
really, really want to heal Jen, I just don't know where to get
(35:33):
started, then I highly highlysuggest you come and join our
free Facebook community.
You can go on there and searchfor Speak Honest, secure
Communication for Women, or goahead and scroll on down to the
show notes.
Right now, just go, scroll, goon.
I want to see you scroll,scroll, scroll, scroll.
Click on that link and join theFacebook community.
You're going to answer a couplequestions, we're going to let
you write in and then we'regoing to say hi and you're going
(35:55):
to get invested with otherwomen that are going through
what you are going through,because, girl, you are not alone
and you are not meant to dothis alone.
We are here for you.
We got you Now.
I will speak with you all nextweek.
Take care, as we wrap uptoday's conversation, always
(36:17):
remember that healing is ajourney, not a destination, and
it is an honor to be a part ofyour healing journey.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we covered today, be
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode
right there, and please rememberto rate, review and subscribe
if you enjoyed today's podcast.
(36:38):
Your feedback means the worldto us and helps others discover
our podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
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