Ever feel like you're finally healing... and then suddenly, you shut down or pull away from someone who’s actually good for you?
In this vulnerable and eye-opening coaching call, I sit down with my client Sheryl to unpack what happens when avoidant attachment patterns sneak back in — especially in relationships that feel secure, healthy, or maybe even soulmate-level. We explore the push-pull of disorganized attachment, the spiral of rumination after conflict, and the tough question: do you fight for the connection or walk away? If you’ve ever felt yourself sabotage intimacy even when you don’t want to, this episode will hit home in the best way.
You might want to listen if:
- You keep attracting emotionally unavailable people and wonder why
- You’re trying to “be secure” but your avoidant side keeps hijacking the moment
- You’ve had a relationship end and can’t stop replaying what you should have done
- You’re not sure if you should give someone space or fight for the connection
- You want to open up but always end up feeling misunderstood or ashamed
FIND OUT MORE!
- Apply for FREE Coaching with Jenn
- Join the DANCE CIRCLE - Get updates on Jenn's debut book "Dance of Attachment"
- Join our FREE Community! Speak Honest Facebook Group 🧡
- Become a Relationship Reboot Member and access all you need to become secure.
- Schedule your Free 30 min Attachment Assessment with Jenn Today!
- Watch Jenn on the 🔴 TEDx Stage!
- Download your free Workbook: Dance of Attachment
- Visit www.speak-honest.com to learn more
- Follow Jenn on Instagram: @speak_honest
- Like the episode? Please write a review, your words help others find us!
DISCLAIMER: Speak Honest podcast content is informational, not professional or medical advice. Jenn is an ICF relationship coach, not a licensed therapist. Consult health ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone and welcome backto another episode of Speak
Honest.
I am Jen Noble, your go-torelationship coach, and on
today's episode we are justgonna dive right in.
(00:47):
I have one of my clients heretoday with me, cheryl, and I'm
so excited to get started inthis conversation because when
Cheryl and I were talking aboutyou know she wanted to come on
the podcast, she wanted to getcoached for something, but she
wasn't quite sure.
She has this question and thisquestion and this question
session and we thought toourselves why not just do a pick
my brain session?
So we're going to go with somerapid fire questions.
(01:07):
Cheryl's going to ask me anyand everything that is on her
mind.
You promised me you're going todo that right, cheryl, I
promise.
Okay.
Good, she's going to ask meanything.
She's going to hit it with meIf I don't know the answer.
I'm just going to be honestabout it.
But I think this is going to bereally fun, because I think it's
really important for us to seethat we don't need to even have
all of the ideas in our head tocome on here and get coached.
We just need to have somequestions, and that's what it's
(01:28):
all about.
And so if you're out thereright now and you are wanting to
come on to the podcast and getcoached, then all you need to do
is scroll on down to the shownotes, click on the link to
apply for the podcast and youcan ask me anything you want as
well.
You and I will spend some timetogether, you'll come on the
(01:48):
podcast, you'll get coached andthen you'll be able to not only
help yourself, but help acommunity of women who will be
listening as well.
So if you're going to getsomething out of this
conversation with Cheryl today,then just imagine how much
someone else might get out ofyour conversation.
So, with all of that said,cheryl, let's go ahead and dive
in.
What is your first question?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So my first question, I guess, is struggling with how
to word the question.
But I guess I just noticed inmy life because there was a lot
of trauma in childhood when Imeet somebody, a new
relationship, whether that's afriendship or a dating
relationship, I tend to relateto people who have had a more
similar background to me andpeople that have had these very
healthy families growing up and,you know, didn't have that
(02:29):
trauma.
I just can't relate to them.
And so it's like, even thoughI've been doing this healing
work and, you know, working onmy attachment style, I find that
no matter how much healing I do, I still can't relate to those
people.
Much healing I do, I stillcan't relate to those people.
And so when I have thatrelationship then it's like, for
example, if you have two peoplewith disorganized attachment
(02:50):
style, you're going to strugglea lot more, and so sometimes
those relationships just don'twork because between the two of
you there's too many wounds,there's too many issues that can
come up, that can damage therelationship.
And yeah, I guess I'm just kindof struggling with how to like
when I meet somebody, I oftenfeel very open, telling somebody
(03:11):
who's had a history like thatabout my childhood.
But if I meet someone that hashad a very healthy childhood, I
find myself very avoidant thenbecause I am like embarrassed.
So I guess I'm just kind ofwondering like how to try more
with those kinds ofrelationships and not feel that
(03:34):
like shame.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, I mean that right there because, as you were
talking, so at first I kind ofwanted to say if this is
something that's important toyou, then we work through it
right.
If you want somebody that hasalso been through trauma or
childhood issues in your lifeand that's something that's
important to you, then we workthrough it right.
If you want somebody that hasalso been through trauma or
childhood issues in your lifeand that's something that's
important, you know, maybe it'spart of your spirituality, your
values, your morals, all of that.
That's a beautiful thing.
And then, as you're stilltalking, I did kind of pick up
(03:57):
on those kind of red flag words,so to speak, which is to say
you feel embarrassed or you feelshame words, so to speak, which
is to say you feel embarrassedor you feel shame.
So I would want to start thereand I would want to ask what's
coming up for you, thinkingabout telling some secure man,
someone you know who had like agood set of parents, one of
those people they had like ahappy life, they liked their
(04:18):
siblings.
You know, all of this stuffhappened.
You know they are out there.
It is wild, but they are outthere.
And what is the shame behindthat.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I guess I just feel like they could never really get
it.
And so then I find myself kindof I don't want to say writing
off the relationship, but kindof having that assumption that
they wouldn't get it.
And so then I don't even wantto tell them.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
What if I just challenged that?
What if I said that's actuallya disservice to the person?
So let's just challenge it realquick, not dismissing your
feelings at all.
I think you are correct to anextent.
I think there's a lot of peopleout there that just wouldn't
get it.
I really do.
But let's say, there are somepeople.
Maybe they have seen otherpeople go through stuff, maybe
they've seen their cousins orthey've had a best friend.
(05:04):
Maybe they, you know, took insomeone and they saw what
happened in their life.
So they're, they have theempathy to be able to understand
what's preventing us fromtalking to that person Really
nothing is preventing it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I guess it's just I don't know.
It's just really hard for me.
Like I feel like you can justkind of you can tell who's going
to get it and who's not, andlike yeah, I just know it's a
struggle I have because I it'snot like I'm intentionally going
out looking for people who havea similar background.
But when I look at the historyof my friendships and, you know,
(05:36):
romantic relationships I justfind that like it's been so much
easier for me to bond if I knowthat they had something similar
.
Well, that's a really good partto stop down on as well easier
for me to bond if I know thatthey had something similar.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Well, that's a really good part to stop down on as
well.
It's easier to bond.
But what if we challenge thatBecause that's kind of something
that we talk a lot about in theRelationship Reboot group is we
do talk about kind of shakingthis idea of what we think is a
bond or what is chemistry.
You know, if I've had thatconversation before, maybe we
(06:06):
could get into that later too.
Yeah, right, what is thisconnection with someone?
And I would say, just based onmy knowledge, my training, my
expertise, my own personalsituation, I would want to
challenge us in that and saythis bond that you think you
have with somebody with trauma,is it really a bond or is there
just a level of familiarityhappening there?
(06:28):
Right, yeah, absolutely.
And so if you found this secureguy, let's say you found someone
, let's say you're on Bumble andyou're swiping and you found
some guy and he likes his motherand his dad is still around and
he played catch with him as akid these freaks that are out
there that had good childhoodsand let's say you're dating this
guy, then I would encourage youto just keep staying in it,
(06:52):
because to an extent that's alittle bit of our avoidant
attachment kind of popping upand coming out and saying, well,
they would never understand me,I can't ask them for things
that I need, because they wouldnever understand what I'm going
through.
Such an avoidant attachmentthought process.
They would never understand.
You can't understand me, youdon't even understand.
I mean, to some extent too,there's even a potential where
you're talking with friends andthey haven't been through what
(07:13):
you've been through and youstart trying to explain
something and they either try tohelp or maybe they're
explaining their situation andyou kind of shut it down
immediately, thinking you don'tget it, you don't get me.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, that is actually a protective mechanism
inside of us.
We don't want to let them in.
So how does that land when Isay that?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
I know that you're right.
I just I don't know how to likeyeah, stop that.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, in that regards , what I would encourage us for
right now is to not worry aboutit in theory and wait for it in
practice.
Does that make sense when I saythat?
So as soon as you find thatsecure man that you want to
start dating, let me know, andthen you and I will start
working through that together,because truly, there is no
(07:59):
theoretical way to work throughthis.
In your mind you got to justput yourself especially for an
avoidant and I know you'redisorganized, but both of us
kind of disorganized, attachment, lean, avoidant, earning,
secure in so many ways.
You've come so far, truly, andin those ways, looking at, what
is it that you want in arelationship long-term?
What kind of relationship is itthat you want?
Go out there, start meetingthose types of people and then,
(08:22):
once that hits, once the painhits, once the fear hits, once
the Jen I tried to tell himsomething that happened to me he
just couldn't understand hits.
Then we decide, but we don'tjust write him off because we
assume he's not going to be ableto get it.
He might surprise us, andthat's what I would encourage us
to do.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, what you thinking.
Yeah, even hearing you say thatit just kind of is I don't know
.
And I guess I never, like yousaid.
You know we lean avoidant, butI just I guess I didn't realize
that in the past because youknow, when you're with people
who are more avoidant than you,you don't really see it.
But you're right, so true yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, yeah, and that's just that protective
mechanism that's inside of us.
So again, I want us to to notbeat that part up.
You know what I mean.
I want us to not like, thinklike, oh, I hate this part of me
, can't she just go away?
You know all that kind of stuff.
And instead I want it to justlook at, okay, this part.
When we have a disorganizedattachment and we are swinging
into our avoidance side, the keyas an avoidance in that moment
(09:28):
is to stay, it's to hunker down,it's to ground ourselves, it's
to anchor and it's to not beafraid.
It's not to flee.
Anxious is a different thing.
Right Over here, we need to notattach so much.
We need to let go.
We need to live our own lifeOver here, on the avoidance side
(09:51):
.
We're good at living our ownlife.
We're good, we're fine, wedon't need anyone.
So that's what I'm encouraged.
So how is that kind of in thatquestion?
Do you have any other questionsaround that?
Do you want to move on to adifferent one?
Does that kind of help explain?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, that does I mean.
I get what you mean that it'ssomething that you need to
practice in the moment.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Actually, something just came up for me.
Can I pick this back up thisconversation?
Yeah, of course.
Do you have any friends in yourlife that you would consider
secure, that you have, that hada good childhood or anything
like that?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Not like fully secure , but it's a spectrum and I
would say that like secure,leaning slightly, avoidance yeah
.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Okay, well, I would encourage you to practice.
So one of the things that Ireally like doing, I like doing
myself, I like telling myclients to do, is don't start
with the big romanticrelationships.
Don't start with family, right,don't start with like the eye
of the tornado, so to speak.
Start small, like find like asecure coworker, find a secure
barista that you found behindthe counter.
(10:44):
Don't trauma dump on them,please, but find someone in your
life, and if you don't haveanyone, then I would even start
us there.
Let's see where we can go.
Maybe there's a meetup group.
We can meet up and we can startmeeting other girls and we can
start meeting other friends andwe can start trying to see oh
hey, here's somebody, here'ssomebody that I would like in my
life.
They seem secure.
(11:05):
Let me into this belief that Ihave that they won't understand
me.
Let me see if they do.
And this is a long process,right, and this isn't something
that you're going to go out thisweekend and do.
This is going to be months inthe process, but it's a starting
point to get you to an exposureworkplace, to start practicing
what it feels like to shareparts of yourself with someone
(11:27):
who might not understand, but insharing that, you allow them to
see a part of you.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Actually, when you said trauma dump, that like made
me think, like, because youmight think, oh, I'm going to
share the good memories, youknow to start out, but when you
have so little or so few goodmemories, you think to yourself,
if I tell them anything aboutmy childhood, it's going to be
seen as drama dumping.
You know, you also don't wantto avoid the question if they
(11:55):
ask you about childhood memoriesand so, yeah, it just kind of
it's a kind of weird place to bein sometimes.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
For sure, and it just is, and so kind of even just
learning that part and learninglike you could, or even just
saying like I don't really feellike talking about my childhood,
just saying that that's an okaything to say, yeah, all right,
great.
Well, I love that question somuch and if anything else pops
up around that, like let me know, well, where else are you going
with this in your mind?
What other questions you got.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I guess something else on that topic I would say
maybe not a specific question,but just something that you had
mentioned recently that I mademe think of is when you have a
disorganized attachment styleand you notice that you are
pushing someone away orsomeone's pushing you away, I
kind of struggle with likewhat's the more secure thing to
do.
And I know you said, you knowthat what's the want behind it.
But is it kind of better topursue sometimes, if that is the
(12:53):
want or if you know that?
I'm sorry, I'm trying to thinkof how to word that.
No, this is good.
Like, if you know that thatperson is in an unhealthy space
with their attachment style inthe moment, do you kind of just
kind of let them have theirspace and figure it out on their
own and kind of give them timeto kind of realize, because I've
done that in the past, likeI've acted in unhealthy ways
(13:16):
with my disorganized attachment,and if somebody had tried to
explain to me in the moment Idon't think it would have worked
Like it wouldn't have, becauseI'm too triggered in the moment.
I don't think it would haveworked Like it wouldn't have
because I'm, you know, tootriggered in that moment.
So sometimes I struggle.
If I know somebody is doingthat to me, like pushing me away
, I get in my avoidance side andI'm like, okay, I'm going to
leave you alone.
You know you take your time andyou know you come to me when
(13:39):
you're ready.
But then I hear these stories.
You know, like yours, that it'slike sometimes it is better to
keep trying, and I know when I'min that spot and I'm being the
one pushing someone away, Iwould want them to keep trying.
So I guess my question is justkind of like how do you know,
like how do you decide what'sthe right move?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
or you know what's needed in that situation how do
you decide what's the right move, or you know what's needed in
that situation.
So I'm kind of hearing you ask,let's say you're in a situation
and someone is shutting down orthey're pushing you away or
they're kind of getting in somesort of triggered state, and so
I'm hearing you ask what do youdo in that moment?
Do you give them space or doyou keep trying?
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, how do you know what's the right move?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, well, I would say how do you know what the
right move is ultimately?
Going to be really difficult tosay in a theoretical world,
because this is going to depend.
Is this someone that'sincredibly important to you?
Is this somebody that you haveyears invested in this
relationship?
Is this the first time this hasever happened?
Is this a chronic problem?
Right, like, did you see?
Situational.
(14:40):
It's going to be completelydependent.
So if you have a situation, Ican talk it through.
If it's theoretical, then whatwe would want to do is look at
all of those things and rememberhow, in the program, one of the
very first things, very firstthing, we do, module one is I
make you guys put out your goalsand intentions right, and
that's why because without agoal or an intention, we get
(15:02):
bogged down into the weeds ofwhat's right or wrong, and
what's right or wrong isirrelevant, and you hear me say
this all the time but there isno secure action.
It is the intent behind whatyou're doing.
So if you're leaving someonealone because you trust them and
you love them and you're havingcompassion for them, and in the
moment you're leaving themalone, you're having grace and
(15:23):
understanding and you'rechecking in on them and you're
just making sure it's okay andyou love them and you're having
compassion for them.
And in the moment you'releaving them alone, you're
having grace and understandingand you're checking in on them
and you're just making sure it'sokay and you've had that
conversation.
That's very secure.
I would love that you know justto say like yes, please take as
much time as you need,sweetheart, I'm here for you as
soon as you're ready.
If you're leaving them alone andin the time apart, you're
thinking that fucking asshole, Ican't stand him.
(15:43):
I never want to see him again.
When he comes back to me, hebetter be on his knees
apologizing.
In that moment, you're leavingthem alone both times, aren't
you?
But the energy is verydifferent, isn't it?
Yeah, so that's what I wouldencourage.
I would encourage to really justdig into what is the ultimate
goal.
(16:03):
Do you want to stay with thisperson?
Do you want to make this work?
And I'm always down.
I'm always down to make thehard relationships work.
I will never be the type ofperson to say, leave him or
leave her.
Don't be a part of this.
Like, if you want to make itwork, we're going to make it
work, but that means sometimeswe're going to have to get
outside of our comfort zone.
And that means yeah, if theyare shut down and they ask for
(16:31):
space, then we need to check inwith ourselves.
Are we truly okay with it?
Maybe you're okay with threedays, not three weeks, and we
learned how to communicate thatand that's the secure way to
kind of hold space for thosepersons.
So tell me what's landing foryou there?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I mean that all makes sense and I guess if it is
someone that you've known longer, you can tell generally what to
do.
But what if it's somebody thatlike is newer to you and you're
not sure?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Great, so let's break this down.
So someone's newer to you.
You're not sure what they needand in this situation, what
happens?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Like give me like a hypothetical you can tell that
it's obvious fear from adisorganized attachment style,
but they are just, every timethe fears come up, just wanting
to completely end therelationship.
When do you be like, okay, thiswasn't meant to be, and when do
you be like, no, I shouldprobably try a little harder to
(17:21):
show them that I care and toease those fears.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Well, again, I'll say , both of those things could be
happening at the exact same time.
You can show them you care andstill have boundaries around
what's going on.
So there was a client I had andshe had a chronic state of
constantly threatening to breakup with her husband.
It's just basically it's howshe got him to do what she
wanted, to be honest.
But you know, she didn't likeit very much and he's anxiously
(17:46):
attached and she leans a littlebit more avoidant.
So she was just constantly kindof like you know, if you don't
do this, we're going to divorceYears and years and years and
years of this.
But in this moment, you know,he's just kind of bending over
himself trying to win her backall the time.
That's a very anxiouslyattached thing to do, but what
we want to do in this moment is,if she's acting like that, the
(18:12):
secure thing would be to saylisten, sweetheart, I love you
so much.
I'm in this for the long haul,I'm ready to work on this, I'm
ready to work with this, but youcannot threaten divorce with me
anymore.
That's just not going to happenIf you do that again.
And then we'll have to come upwith what would the boundary be.
And then we help them and theythreaten it with divorce again
or breaking up or whatever it is.
And you know they say they'rescared or they say they don't
think they can do this anymore.
And you say, hold up, it'shappening again.
(18:34):
What's going on for you?
And now do you see the energyin which I can have that
conversation?
Why?
Because I'm not taking itpersonal.
Them breaking up with me is notabout me, it's about their fear
.
And that's the place we want toget to, where then we can say,
okay, like, I'm okay with this.
Like, if this is what you haveto do in order to get through
this, I'm willing to hold spacefor you, I don't mind, but you
(18:57):
can't say this, this is myboundary here.
Yeah, so like, for example, I'mfeisty.
I'm a very feisty person.
You know that about me, right?
I say what's on my mind.
I cuss all the time blah, blah,blah.
But one like boundary that myhusband has with me is I can't
call him names.
So a little bit early on in therelationship, because I got
very used to calling my ex names, my ex-husband names, because
(19:18):
this is how I would fight and Iam really good at finding the
thing that hurts someone else.
It's that sweet, sweethypervigilance.
You know what I mean.
You can find the thing that'slike they're a little like
Achilles heel, and so I have aname call.
Or you know it's say likeyou're a dickhead or you're a
bitch or whatever it is right,like whatever the mean thing
that's coming out of my mouth,or I'm like, don't be so stupid.
(19:45):
Later on, during one of ourconversations about our fight,
he had mentioned that thatreally hurt his feelings and
that he would really like it ifin future arguments we don't
resort to name calling Now.
Does that mean I was perfect atit during our next fight?
No, because I'm still me and Istill have triggers and I still
(20:07):
have old attachments, dances,and I still have old habits.
But what it meant was I couldkeep trying and it takes.
I don't know.
I think there was the researchthat someone did recently that
says our brains are likechildren and it takes children
at least 10 to 12 times to learnsomething.
So you'd tell your kid go hangup your coat, go hang up your
(20:28):
coat, go hang up.
Oh my God, go hang up yourfreaking coat.
Already.
It takes a long time and thenthey have to build the habit.
It's the same thing in ourrelationships.
So let's say you're with thisperson and they're threatening
to break up and you tell themplease don't do that again.
They're going to do it again.
So let's be mindful there.
That's a great topic to talk on, because people be like but I
told him what I needed, I toldhim my boundary and he's still
doing it.
It's like okay, it's going totake like 10 to 12 times.
(20:49):
Let's just knock that out rightnow.
It's going to become a habitand we have to help them break
that, and so that's all it takesLike okay, great.
So in this conversation with myhusband, I'm going to try
really hard, but this is a habitof mine.
So when I'm doing that, can wehave some sort of signal?
Or you need to just like youhave every right to walk away
from me?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Say, oh, name calling , it's not happening, I'll be
back when you're done and youjust walk away and this is what
you could do with this person,with this partner, with anyone
in your life.
That is kind of threatening todo this and you can hold space
for them, but that's alsohonestly, cheryl, asking a lot,
that's asking you to be perfectin that moment, and so I want to
(21:30):
challenge that and say that'snot necessarily fair either to
you.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Because I have so much empathy for it, because I
used to do that, like I ahundred percent used to be that
person to threaten to leave allthe time, and so I understand
and I don't take it personally.
So I understand and I don'ttake it personally, like you
said, I don't.
But first time it happened it'slike I don't know how to be on
the receiving end of it.
So the first time it happened Iwas, I handled it really well,
(21:55):
was very forgiving, veryunderstanding.
But then it happened again andI, like you just said, it can
take many tries or many times ofthis happening before somebody
stops that behavior.
And I think when it happenedagain, I just really got into my
avoidance side.
I was like, oh, you're doingthis again, you must really mean
it this time.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Great.
So right there, you must reallymean it this time.
That is when you took itpersonal.
Yeah, and that's okay to say,right, let's own it.
Looking back.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I don't, but in the moment I did.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, yeah, which is beautiful.
Actually, that's like such apowerful statement, looking like
in the moment you took itpersonal.
Having been removed with timeyou can see it's not.
Yeah, but your body in themoment took it personal and
that's okay.
But that's where we would workon.
And also, I just want to beclear maybe you know radical,
(22:46):
maybe you're the type of personthat you don't want someone in a
relationship to constantly keepthreatening breaking up.
That's an okay like boundary tohave.
Yeah, but I know what you mean.
But don't let your empathy forsomeone else prevent you from
having boundaries.
Right, you can understand whatsomeone is going through.
That doesn't mean you have toput up with it and you can love
(23:08):
them and they can love you, andthat still doesn't mean that
you're right for each other.
It just means that you're intwo different places right now.
I remember, kind of like again,having this empathy for someone
but not condoning it.
I remember way, way back in theday I was a new mother and my
child would cry all the time,and it was one of the first
times where I, all of a sudden,my empathy overtook myself and
(23:31):
it's like I understood why womenshake their babies.
Yeah, and it was overwhelming.
But just because I have empathywith it doesn't mean I condone
it Right.
That's what I want us to hitwith in all of our relationships
, because I think we do get inthis rut and we see this a lot
which is like what he has anavoidant attachment, or he has
(23:51):
an anxious attachment or adisorganized attachment.
It's not his fault.
He had trauma.
I could work with this.
I can understand it.
But here's the thing out of theworld, 99.9% of the people are
not bad people.
They're all doing the best thatthey can with the tools that
they have.
Even like, even like reallyterrible people.
They're not like you know theworst, like you can understand.
(24:13):
If you understood theirbackstory, you would see why
they got created the way thatthey are today and where all of
their actions come from ourdefense mechanisms.
But just because we saw somemass murderer get abused and
beaten as a kid and so, as aresult, this is his way of
taking back control does thatmean all of a sudden we're like,
oh my gosh, sweetheart, ofcourse, please go murder those
(24:36):
people.
No, and I know I'm being likeover, you know zealous.
That's the point.
So we can like kind of see the,the, the humor in it to an
extent, but it's that so I don'twant our empathy to prevent us
from setting boundaries.
How does that land when?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I say that, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I mean, I think, when it stillbothers you later.
And you know, like, when I lookback and see my avoidant
behavior in that moment, then itbothers me because I don't know
how to like, you know you can'tgo back and fix that, you can't
go back and redo that moment.
(25:15):
What about it bothers you?
Just that I wasn't secure inthat moment and that I just
reacted to avoidance withavoidance and you know I shut
down.
You know, like I have thathabit of just like when I'm hurt
then I'll shut down and thenlater I'll be like, oh, they
(25:36):
weren't, that wasn't about me.
You know what they were doing,that wasn't.
And it's like they say, you onlyget one chance to make a first
impression, like you can't goback and behave securely when,
just because you see it clearlylater, you know you can't.
Yeah, but what can you do now?
You can talk to the person andsay what you know was on your
mind in that moment, what youreally felt, but it's just hard
(25:58):
to do when it's much later.
True, but what else can we dowith?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
that information.
Do better next time.
You're ruminating on this a lot.
We've worked together for alittle while now and I've heard
this come up a couple times,which means I can tell there's a
rumination on it.
I can tell we haven't processedthrough it yet, which is
beautiful.
Keep bringing it up everysingle time.
I'm so proud of you and alsowhat it's really trying to show
you and let me know if this hitsor resonates is you don't want
(26:22):
to do that again.
Yeah, so can you see how thisrumination that you have over
here about I can't believe I didthat.
I should have been more secure.
I can't believe I foughtavoidance with avoidance.
You know I don't know whatyou're thinking, but, like you
know my mind like, oh, that wasstupid of me, why couldn't I
have been better?
Why did I mess this up?
The my mind like, oh, that wasstupid of me, why couldn't I
(26:43):
have been better?
Why did I mess this up?
The thing is is that's puttinga lot of pressure on you back
then.
First off, that's expecting youto be perfect in that
relationship, and that's justwhat I don't want to see happen.
But then also you can see howit means, how important it is to
you to get secure now.
But are we going to be able toget secure if we're shaming
ourselves for our past?
Yeah, you're right, because ifwe could heal and shame, the
(27:08):
whole world would be healed bynow.
What you thinking?
I see your eyes.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I don't know, I guess I, just I, I think that same
thing, sometimes like oh, itmust be rumination.
And sometimes I wonder, like oh, it must be rumination.
And sometimes I wonder is itthat this was different and this
was more important to me, or isit that I'm ruminating and that
it's like in the anxious sideof my disorganized attachment
(27:36):
style?
It's hard to tell sometimes.
How do you mean more importantto you?
Just that connection was moreimportant to me, more important
how that I felt like moreunderstood than I have in the
past with other people in otherrelationships.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
That could still again be true.
It could be an importantrelationship, but that doesn't
necessarily mean.
I guess that's kind of what Iwanted to know.
I heard you saying, like, oh,this is more important, like
more important, how Moreimportant?
Such as oh, you think thatthere's a connection between the
two of you and so the two ofyou are going to work out
long-term.
Do you feel like there's like asoulmate connection going on
(28:12):
there, something like that?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, like wondering if I should still put effort
there.
Or is that just me being, youknow, ruminating anxious
attachment style?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I will always say if you feel like you need to go put
effort into something, go puteffort into it Always.
If you feel like you leftsomething on the table, go back,
communicate, fight for what youwant Always.
I will always say that that'sgood advice, yeah, but then
actually having to go throughwith it, that's the difficult
part, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think sometimes it takes a
different kind of relationship,I guess, to realize that you're
avoidant, sometimes Because,like in the past, like I was
always avoidant, but lessavoidant than the other person,
yeah, and so I didn't reallyrealize how avoidant I was, I
think, until this relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Oh, that is so true.
I didn't even know that for meit would have been the other way
.
I didn't understand that I hada disorganized attachment.
I would have thought I was justplain avoidant until I started
dating an avoidant.
And then I turned hella anxiousand I became someone.
I never understood even whothat girl was.
Sometimes.
I sometimes still am shocked bythat person of me.
(29:23):
So it's interesting what happenswhen you get into these
different relationships, whichis also why it's important
sometimes to go get into newrelationships, go learn who you
are with other people.
In fact, even if I don'tpersonally attribute or
subscribe to soulmates or twinflames or any of that kind of
stuff, I personally believe thatthere's tons of people out
there and we can make it workwith honestly anyone If you just
figure it out out there.
And we can make it work withhonestly anyone Like if you just
(29:43):
you know, if you figure it out.
That being said, if you dobelieve in this concept of like
a soulmate or like this is yourperson or like it's going to
really work, sometimes it takesmoving on getting in a new
relationship and then going backto the person.
So this is kind of a datingidea that's out there.
But you don't want your ex to beyour rebound.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, so like, if you reallywant to make it work with him,
(30:06):
go out there, learn who you are,try other people figure this
part of you out and then see, oh, he's the one I want, this is
it Like I know this is who Iwant.
And then maybe you go back andmaybe you missed your time and I
don't know.
And you know, life happens andthere's cute movies out there
about that kind of stuff.
You know where, like peoplekeep missing their timeframes
and things.
(30:27):
But who knows, maybe you get inenough relationships by the
time that both of you are 60,you are meant to be together and
that's it.
But imagine you never livedyour life that entire time you
were waiting for him.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Right, yeah, yeah, I struggle sometimes with if I
believe in that or not.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
You know that I kind of go back and forth, but I do
think I believe in it enoughthat it to soulmates or even
like past lives or you know allof that kind of stuff Like.
But all I know, all I know is aconnection is happening, like a
true attachment bond ishappening.
And I will say this 10 timesover.
You know I talk about my ex alot, but like, I say it because
(31:17):
I just I need people tounderstand that just because I'm
happily married now and I'mvery secure and I'm living the
best life I've ever been and I'mthe happiest I've ever been,
that does not mean that my soul,my heart, my body sometimes
does not just get drawn back tothat man.
Yeah, it is wild and I cannotexplain it.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, maybethat means when we're both 70,
(31:41):
we're going to find each otheragain and then we'll die in our
deathbeds together.
I don't know, maybe it means wewere together in a previous
life and that's that connectionthat's happening.
But all I know and this iswhere I finally got to it All I
know is if in the moment, whileI'm waiting to figure this out,
I'm not living my life, thenwhat am I doing?
And it might also mean I missmy opportunity to be with him
(32:03):
again, if I want to, later on.
Now, the difference here is Ithink I do have a different
mindset, where I also know, whenI look at him in a logical,
secure way, I'm not attracted tohim.
I'm attracted to somethingabout him.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it was the fact that Ijust got to live a free life
(32:25):
with him when I was dating himand I got to take time off of
being a mother, and maybe that'sreally what I'm missing half
the time when I fantasize abouthim.
I don't know what it is and Ialso have this beautiful
relationship right now.
So if anyone's talking, they'relike how the fuck can you be
talking about this ex whenyou're married, your poor
husband, like that's so unfairto him, blah, blah, blah.
(32:46):
And I'd be like no, no, he knowsall of this shit, because I'm
in a secure relationship where Ican tell him what I'm feeling
and what I'm understanding.
And hey, going back to ouroriginal conversation, he
doesn't understand anything thatI'm talking about.
He doesn't know this feelingthat I feel, but he's willing to
listen and understand and talkto me about it and he's secure
enough to know I would never doanything about it.
(33:07):
And it doesn't mean I don'tlove him deeply with all of my
heart just because I have theserandom thoughts every once in a
while.
That is how we take our bigfeelings and we turn them into
secure relationships.
Because I remember back in theday if I would have had
limerence or attraction tosomeone, I would have felt like
I'm cheating on my husband.
I would have felt shame, Iwould have felt guilt.
(33:29):
Then I'd push my husband awaybecause I'd feel bad about it.
Then our conversations would gobad, our communication would go
down.
I'd start getting disdain andcontempt in there.
This is what started happening,because I get crushes a lot.
I don't know what that is.
I don't know if I'm just like ahyper crush, like some people
(33:50):
are hypersexual.
I'm like hyper crushable.
I don't know what it is, butit's like some hot guy walks
into my class and I'm like, ohyeah, that's my new crush for
the month.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I have this like intense limerence at all times,
see, and for me it's theopposite, like I never I mean I
don't say never, but it's rarefor me to like someone to him
again.
You know, and I think I've toldyou this before, go talk to him
again make it work.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Move where you need to move, fight for him.
If you want to fight for him,tell him you love him, I don't
care what it is, put it all outon the line, open up your heart,
(34:34):
get rejected, fall flat on yourface and then get back up and
see what we can do next.
But sometimes that's what ittakes.
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, all right.
Is this a good place to startwrapping up for today?
It is All right.
Such good questions.
Thank you so much, cheryl, forasking these questions.
(34:55):
I think we hit on a lot ofreally tough and deep
conversations and I don't eventhink we fully explored the
depth of a lot of these.
So come back into the group atany time, ask these questions,
because I think, after we'vetalked about this, what's going
to happen is your mind is goingto open up in other places.
Now is what I'm hoping.
So once that happens andanother question pops up, come
(35:16):
ask in the group.
You know what I mean.
That's the best part.
Like wait, jen, hold onSomething else just opened up.
Like wait, jen, hold onSomething else just opened up.
Like, what about this, whatabout this?
And the more we keep exploringthat, the better.
I'm sure it will.
Yeah, and thank you again somuch for coming on and being
vulnerable.
And if anyone right now islistening to this and you want
to come on and do this, do youjust want to pick my brain on a
(35:36):
podcast?
You just want to be like don'tunderstand what anxious
attachment is.
Why does this keep happeningand why does my brain work this
way?
Because I keep reading about itbut nothing makes any sense.
Or maybe Cheryl's story madeyou realize you know you have a
soulmate or you have a twinflame and you want to figure out
what to do about that and youjust want more help.
Come on the podcast.
(35:57):
You can get help with that.
You can come and join us at anytime.
Just scrolling down to the shownotes, click on the link to
apply for a podcast coachingcall and I would love to have
you on.
And again, cheryl, thank you somuch.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Is there anything else, any other questions or
anything you want to say beforewe finish up, not that I can
think of now, but I'm sure Iwill think of some.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
All right.
Well, when you think of them,let me know and I will talk with
you all next week.
Take care, as we wrap uptoday's conversation, always
remember that healing is ajourney, not a destination, and
it is an honor to be a part ofyour healing journey.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we covered today, be
(36:36):
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode.
Right there, and pleaseremember to rate, review and
valuable information mentionedin today's episode right there,
and please remember to rate,review and subscribe.
If you enjoyed today's podcast,your feedback means the world
to us and helps others discoverour podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone and welcome backto another episode of Speak
Honest.
I am Jen Noble, your go-torelationship coach, and on
today's episode we are justgonna dive right in.
(00:47):
I have one of my clients heretoday with me, cheryl, and I'm
so excited to get started inthis conversation because when
Cheryl and I were talking aboutyou know she wanted to come on
the podcast, she wanted to getcoached for something, but she
wasn't quite sure.
She has this question and thisquestion and this question
session and we thought toourselves why not just do a pick
my brain session?
So we're going to go with somerapid fire questions.
(01:07):
Cheryl's going to ask me anyand everything that is on her
mind.
You promised me you're going todo that right, cheryl, I
promise.
Okay.
Good, she's going to ask meanything.
She's going to hit it with meIf I don't know the answer.
I'm just going to be honestabout it.
But I think this is going to bereally fun, because I think it's
really important for us to seethat we don't need to even have
all of the ideas in our head tocome on here and get coached.
We just need to have somequestions, and that's what it's
(01:28):
all about.
And so if you're out thereright now and you are wanting to
come on to the podcast and getcoached, then all you need to do
is scroll on down to the shownotes, click on the link to
apply for the podcast and youcan ask me anything you want as
well.
You and I will spend some timetogether, you'll come on the
(01:48):
podcast, you'll get coached andthen you'll be able to not only
help yourself, but help acommunity of women who will be
listening as well.
So if you're going to getsomething out of this
conversation with Cheryl today,then just imagine how much
someone else might get out ofyour conversation.
So, with all of that said,cheryl, let's go ahead and dive
in.
What is your first question?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So my first question, I guess, is struggling with how
to word the question.
But I guess I just noticed inmy life because there was a lot
of trauma in childhood when Imeet somebody, a new
relationship, whether that's afriendship or a dating
relationship, I tend to relateto people who have had a more
similar background to me andpeople that have had these very
healthy families growing up and,you know, didn't have that
(02:29):
trauma.
I just can't relate to them.
And so it's like, even thoughI've been doing this healing
work and, you know, working onmy attachment style, I find that
no matter how much healing I do, I still can't relate to those
people.
Much healing I do, I stillcan't relate to those people.
And so when I have thatrelationship then it's like, for
example, if you have two peoplewith disorganized attachment
(02:50):
style, you're going to strugglea lot more, and so sometimes
those relationships just don'twork because between the two of
you there's too many wounds,there's too many issues that can
come up, that can damage therelationship.
And yeah, I guess I'm just kindof struggling with how to like
when I meet somebody, I oftenfeel very open, telling somebody
(03:11):
who's had a history like thatabout my childhood.
But if I meet someone that hashad a very healthy childhood, I
find myself very avoidant thenbecause I am like embarrassed.
So I guess I'm just kind ofwondering like how to try more
with those kinds ofrelationships and not feel that
(03:34):
like shame.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, I mean that right there because, as you were
talking, so at first I kind ofwanted to say if this is
something that's important toyou, then we work through it
right.
If you want somebody that hasalso been through trauma or
childhood issues in your lifeand that's something that's
important to you, then we workthrough it right.
If you want somebody that hasalso been through trauma or
childhood issues in your lifeand that's something that's
important, you know, maybe it'spart of your spirituality, your
values, your morals, all of that.
That's a beautiful thing.
And then, as you're stilltalking, I did kind of pick up
(03:57):
on those kind of red flag words,so to speak, which is to say
you feel embarrassed or you feelshame words, so to speak, which
is to say you feel embarrassedor you feel shame.
So I would want to start thereand I would want to ask what's
coming up for you, thinkingabout telling some secure man,
someone you know who had like agood set of parents, one of
those people they had like ahappy life, they liked their
(04:18):
siblings.
You know, all of this stuffhappened.
You know they are out there.
It is wild, but they are outthere.
And what is the shame behindthat.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I guess I just feel like they could never really get
it.
And so then I find myself kindof I don't want to say writing
off the relationship, but kindof having that assumption that
they wouldn't get it.
And so then I don't even wantto tell them.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
What if I just challenged that?
What if I said that's actuallya disservice to the person?
So let's just challenge it realquick, not dismissing your
feelings at all.
I think you are correct to anextent.
I think there's a lot of peopleout there that just wouldn't
get it.
I really do.
But let's say, there are somepeople.
Maybe they have seen otherpeople go through stuff, maybe
they've seen their cousins orthey've had a best friend.
(05:04):
Maybe they, you know, took insomeone and they saw what
happened in their life.
So they're, they have theempathy to be able to understand
what's preventing us fromtalking to that person Really
nothing is preventing it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I guess it's just I don't know.
It's just really hard for me.
Like I feel like you can justkind of you can tell who's going
to get it and who's not, andlike yeah, I just know it's a
struggle I have because I it'snot like I'm intentionally going
out looking for people who havea similar background.
But when I look at the historyof my friendships and, you know,
(05:36):
romantic relationships I justfind that like it's been so much
easier for me to bond if I knowthat they had something similar
.
Well, that's a really good partto stop down on as well easier
for me to bond if I know thatthey had something similar.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Well, that's a really good part to stop down on as
well.
It's easier to bond.
But what if we challenge thatBecause that's kind of something
that we talk a lot about in theRelationship Reboot group is we
do talk about kind of shakingthis idea of what we think is a
bond or what is chemistry.
You know, if I've had thatconversation before, maybe we
(06:06):
could get into that later too.
Yeah, right, what is thisconnection with someone?
And I would say, just based onmy knowledge, my training, my
expertise, my own personalsituation, I would want to
challenge us in that and saythis bond that you think you
have with somebody with trauma,is it really a bond or is there
just a level of familiarityhappening there?
(06:28):
Right, yeah, absolutely.
And so if you found this secureguy, let's say you found someone
, let's say you're on Bumble andyou're swiping and you found
some guy and he likes his motherand his dad is still around and
he played catch with him as akid these freaks that are out
there that had good childhoodsand let's say you're dating this
guy, then I would encourage youto just keep staying in it,
(06:52):
because to an extent that's alittle bit of our avoidant
attachment kind of popping upand coming out and saying, well,
they would never understand me,I can't ask them for things
that I need, because they wouldnever understand what I'm going
through.
Such an avoidant attachmentthought process.
They would never understand.
You can't understand me, youdon't even understand.
I mean, to some extent too,there's even a potential where
you're talking with friends andthey haven't been through what
(07:13):
you've been through and youstart trying to explain
something and they either try tohelp or maybe they're
explaining their situation andyou kind of shut it down
immediately, thinking you don'tget it, you don't get me.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, that is actually a protective mechanism
inside of us.
We don't want to let them in.
So how does that land when Isay that?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
I know that you're right.
I just I don't know how to likeyeah, stop that.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, in that regards , what I would encourage us for
right now is to not worry aboutit in theory and wait for it in
practice.
Does that make sense when I saythat?
So as soon as you find thatsecure man that you want to
start dating, let me know, andthen you and I will start
working through that together,because truly, there is no
(07:59):
theoretical way to work throughthis.
In your mind you got to justput yourself especially for an
avoidant and I know you'redisorganized, but both of us
kind of disorganized, attachment, lean, avoidant, earning,
secure in so many ways.
You've come so far, truly, andin those ways, looking at, what
is it that you want in arelationship long-term?
What kind of relationship is itthat you want?
Go out there, start meetingthose types of people and then,
(08:22):
once that hits, once the painhits, once the fear hits, once
the Jen I tried to tell himsomething that happened to me he
just couldn't understand hits.
Then we decide, but we don'tjust write him off because we
assume he's not going to be ableto get it.
He might surprise us, andthat's what I would encourage us
to do.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, what you thinking.
Yeah, even hearing you say thatit just kind of is I don't know
.
And I guess I never, like yousaid.
You know we lean avoidant, butI just I guess I didn't realize
that in the past because youknow, when you're with people
who are more avoidant than you,you don't really see it.
But you're right, so true yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, yeah, and that's just that protective
mechanism that's inside of us.
So again, I want us to to notbeat that part up.
You know what I mean.
I want us to not like, thinklike, oh, I hate this part of me
, can't she just go away?
You know all that kind of stuff.
And instead I want it to justlook at, okay, this part.
When we have a disorganizedattachment and we are swinging
into our avoidance side, the keyas an avoidance in that moment
(09:28):
is to stay, it's to hunker down,it's to ground ourselves, it's
to anchor and it's to not beafraid.
It's not to flee.
Anxious is a different thing.
Right Over here, we need to notattach so much.
We need to let go.
We need to live our own lifeOver here, on the avoidance side
(09:51):
.
We're good at living our ownlife.
We're good, we're fine, wedon't need anyone.
So that's what I'm encouraged.
So how is that kind of in thatquestion?
Do you have any other questionsaround that?
Do you want to move on to adifferent one?
Does that kind of help explain?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, that does I mean.
I get what you mean that it'ssomething that you need to
practice in the moment.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Actually, something just came up for me.
Can I pick this back up thisconversation?
Yeah, of course.
Do you have any friends in yourlife that you would consider
secure, that you have, that hada good childhood or anything
like that?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Not like fully secure , but it's a spectrum and I
would say that like secure,leaning slightly, avoidance yeah
.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Okay, well, I would encourage you to practice.
So one of the things that Ireally like doing, I like doing
myself, I like telling myclients to do, is don't start
with the big romanticrelationships.
Don't start with family, right,don't start with like the eye
of the tornado, so to speak.
Start small, like find like asecure coworker, find a secure
barista that you found behindthe counter.
(10:44):
Don't trauma dump on them,please, but find someone in your
life, and if you don't haveanyone, then I would even start
us there.
Let's see where we can go.
Maybe there's a meetup group.
We can meet up and we can startmeeting other girls and we can
start meeting other friends andwe can start trying to see oh
hey, here's somebody, here'ssomebody that I would like in my
life.
They seem secure.
(11:05):
Let me into this belief that Ihave that they won't understand
me.
Let me see if they do.
And this is a long process,right, and this isn't something
that you're going to go out thisweekend and do.
This is going to be months inthe process, but it's a starting
point to get you to an exposureworkplace, to start practicing
what it feels like to shareparts of yourself with someone
(11:27):
who might not understand, but insharing that, you allow them to
see a part of you.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Actually, when you said trauma dump, that like made
me think, like, because youmight think, oh, I'm going to
share the good memories, youknow to start out, but when you
have so little or so few goodmemories, you think to yourself,
if I tell them anything aboutmy childhood, it's going to be
seen as drama dumping.
You know, you also don't wantto avoid the question if they
(11:55):
ask you about childhood memoriesand so, yeah, it just kind of
it's a kind of weird place to bein sometimes.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
For sure, and it just is, and so kind of even just
learning that part and learninglike you could, or even just
saying like I don't really feellike talking about my childhood,
just saying that that's an okaything to say, yeah, all right,
great.
Well, I love that question somuch and if anything else pops
up around that, like let me know, well, where else are you going
with this in your mind?
What other questions you got.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I guess something else on that topic I would say
maybe not a specific question,but just something that you had
mentioned recently that I mademe think of is when you have a
disorganized attachment styleand you notice that you are
pushing someone away orsomeone's pushing you away, I
kind of struggle with likewhat's the more secure thing to
do.
And I know you said, you knowthat what's the want behind it.
But is it kind of better topursue sometimes, if that is the
(12:53):
want or if you know that?
I'm sorry, I'm trying to thinkof how to word that.
No, this is good.
Like, if you know that thatperson is in an unhealthy space
with their attachment style inthe moment, do you kind of just
kind of let them have theirspace and figure it out on their
own and kind of give them timeto kind of realize, because I've
done that in the past, likeI've acted in unhealthy ways
(13:16):
with my disorganized attachment,and if somebody had tried to
explain to me in the moment Idon't think it would have worked
Like it wouldn't have, becauseI'm too triggered in the moment.
I don't think it would haveworked Like it wouldn't have
because I'm, you know, tootriggered in that moment.
So sometimes I struggle.
If I know somebody is doingthat to me, like pushing me away
, I get in my avoidance side andI'm like, okay, I'm going to
leave you alone.
You know you take your time andyou know you come to me when
(13:39):
you're ready.
But then I hear these stories.
You know, like yours, that it'slike sometimes it is better to
keep trying, and I know when I'min that spot and I'm being the
one pushing someone away, Iwould want them to keep trying.
So I guess my question is justkind of like how do you know,
like how do you decide what'sthe right move?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
or you know what's needed in that situation how do
you decide what's the right move, or you know what's needed in
that situation.
So I'm kind of hearing you ask,let's say you're in a situation
and someone is shutting down orthey're pushing you away or
they're kind of getting in somesort of triggered state, and so
I'm hearing you ask what do youdo in that moment?
Do you give them space or doyou keep trying?
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, how do you know what's the right move?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, well, I would say how do you know what the
right move is ultimately?
Going to be really difficult tosay in a theoretical world,
because this is going to depend.
Is this someone that'sincredibly important to you?
Is this somebody that you haveyears invested in this
relationship?
Is this the first time this hasever happened?
Is this a chronic problem?
Right, like, did you see?
Situational.
(14:40):
It's going to be completelydependent.
So if you have a situation, Ican talk it through.
If it's theoretical, then whatwe would want to do is look at
all of those things and rememberhow, in the program, one of the
very first things, very firstthing, we do, module one is I
make you guys put out your goalsand intentions right, and
that's why because without agoal or an intention, we get
(15:02):
bogged down into the weeds ofwhat's right or wrong, and
what's right or wrong isirrelevant, and you hear me say
this all the time but there isno secure action.
It is the intent behind whatyou're doing.
So if you're leaving someonealone because you trust them and
you love them and you're havingcompassion for them, and in the
moment you're leaving themalone, you're having grace and
(15:23):
understanding and you'rechecking in on them and you're
just making sure it's okay andyou love them and you're having
compassion for them.
And in the moment you'releaving them alone, you're
having grace and understandingand you're checking in on them
and you're just making sure it'sokay and you've had that
conversation.
That's very secure.
I would love that you know justto say like yes, please take as
much time as you need,sweetheart, I'm here for you as
soon as you're ready.
If you're leaving them alone andin the time apart, you're
thinking that fucking asshole, Ican't stand him.
(15:43):
I never want to see him again.
When he comes back to me, hebetter be on his knees
apologizing.
In that moment, you're leavingthem alone both times, aren't
you?
But the energy is verydifferent, isn't it?
Yeah, so that's what I wouldencourage.
I would encourage to really justdig into what is the ultimate
goal.
(16:03):
Do you want to stay with thisperson?
Do you want to make this work?
And I'm always down.
I'm always down to make thehard relationships work.
I will never be the type ofperson to say, leave him or
leave her.
Don't be a part of this.
Like, if you want to make itwork, we're going to make it
work, but that means sometimeswe're going to have to get
outside of our comfort zone.
And that means yeah, if theyare shut down and they ask for
(16:31):
space, then we need to check inwith ourselves.
Are we truly okay with it?
Maybe you're okay with threedays, not three weeks, and we
learned how to communicate thatand that's the secure way to
kind of hold space for thosepersons.
So tell me what's landing foryou there?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I mean that all makes sense and I guess if it is
someone that you've known longer, you can tell generally what to
do.
But what if it's somebody thatlike is newer to you and you're
not sure?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Great, so let's break this down.
So someone's newer to you.
You're not sure what they needand in this situation, what
happens?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Like give me like a hypothetical you can tell that
it's obvious fear from adisorganized attachment style,
but they are just, every timethe fears come up, just wanting
to completely end therelationship.
When do you be like, okay, thiswasn't meant to be, and when do
you be like, no, I shouldprobably try a little harder to
(17:21):
show them that I care and toease those fears.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Well, again, I'll say , both of those things could be
happening at the exact same time.
You can show them you care andstill have boundaries around
what's going on.
So there was a client I had andshe had a chronic state of
constantly threatening to breakup with her husband.
It's just basically it's howshe got him to do what she
wanted, to be honest.
But you know, she didn't likeit very much and he's anxiously
(17:46):
attached and she leans a littlebit more avoidant.
So she was just constantly kindof like you know, if you don't
do this, we're going to divorceYears and years and years and
years of this.
But in this moment, you know,he's just kind of bending over
himself trying to win her backall the time.
That's a very anxiouslyattached thing to do, but what
we want to do in this moment is,if she's acting like that, the
(18:12):
secure thing would be to saylisten, sweetheart, I love you
so much.
I'm in this for the long haul,I'm ready to work on this, I'm
ready to work with this, but youcannot threaten divorce with me
anymore.
That's just not going to happenIf you do that again.
And then we'll have to come upwith what would the boundary be.
And then we help them and theythreaten it with divorce again
or breaking up or whatever it is.
And you know they say they'rescared or they say they don't
think they can do this anymore.
And you say, hold up, it'shappening again.
(18:34):
What's going on for you?
And now do you see the energyin which I can have that
conversation?
Why?
Because I'm not taking itpersonal.
Them breaking up with me is notabout me, it's about their fear
.
And that's the place we want toget to, where then we can say,
okay, like, I'm okay with this.
Like, if this is what you haveto do in order to get through
this, I'm willing to hold spacefor you, I don't mind, but you
(18:57):
can't say this, this is myboundary here.
Yeah, so like, for example, I'mfeisty.
I'm a very feisty person.
You know that about me, right?
I say what's on my mind.
I cuss all the time blah, blah,blah.
But one like boundary that myhusband has with me is I can't
call him names.
So a little bit early on in therelationship, because I got
very used to calling my ex names, my ex-husband names, because
(19:18):
this is how I would fight and Iam really good at finding the
thing that hurts someone else.
It's that sweet, sweethypervigilance.
You know what I mean.
You can find the thing that'slike they're a little like
Achilles heel, and so I have aname call.
Or you know it's say likeyou're a dickhead or you're a
bitch or whatever it is right,like whatever the mean thing
that's coming out of my mouth,or I'm like, don't be so stupid.
(19:45):
Later on, during one of ourconversations about our fight,
he had mentioned that thatreally hurt his feelings and
that he would really like it ifin future arguments we don't
resort to name calling Now.
Does that mean I was perfect atit during our next fight?
No, because I'm still me and Istill have triggers and I still
(20:07):
have old attachments, dances,and I still have old habits.
But what it meant was I couldkeep trying and it takes.
I don't know.
I think there was the researchthat someone did recently that
says our brains are likechildren and it takes children
at least 10 to 12 times to learnsomething.
So you'd tell your kid go hangup your coat, go hang up your
(20:28):
coat, go hang up.
Oh my God, go hang up yourfreaking coat.
Already.
It takes a long time and thenthey have to build the habit.
It's the same thing in ourrelationships.
So let's say you're with thisperson and they're threatening
to break up and you tell themplease don't do that again.
They're going to do it again.
So let's be mindful there.
That's a great topic to talk on, because people be like but I
told him what I needed, I toldhim my boundary and he's still
doing it.
It's like okay, it's going totake like 10 to 12 times.
(20:49):
Let's just knock that out rightnow.
It's going to become a habitand we have to help them break
that, and so that's all it takesLike okay, great.
So in this conversation with myhusband, I'm going to try
really hard, but this is a habitof mine.
So when I'm doing that, can wehave some sort of signal?
Or you need to just like youhave every right to walk away
from me?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Say, oh, name calling , it's not happening, I'll be
back when you're done and youjust walk away and this is what
you could do with this person,with this partner, with anyone
in your life.
That is kind of threatening todo this and you can hold space
for them, but that's alsohonestly, cheryl, asking a lot,
that's asking you to be perfectin that moment, and so I want to
(21:30):
challenge that and say that'snot necessarily fair either to
you.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Because I have so much empathy for it, because I
used to do that, like I ahundred percent used to be that
person to threaten to leave allthe time, and so I understand
and I don't take it personally.
So I understand and I don'ttake it personally, like you
said, I don't.
But first time it happened it'slike I don't know how to be on
the receiving end of it.
So the first time it happened Iwas, I handled it really well,
(21:55):
was very forgiving, veryunderstanding.
But then it happened again andI, like you just said, it can
take many tries or many times ofthis happening before somebody
stops that behavior.
And I think when it happenedagain, I just really got into my
avoidance side.
I was like, oh, you're doingthis again, you must really mean
it this time.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Great.
So right there, you must reallymean it this time.
That is when you took itpersonal.
Yeah, and that's okay to say,right, let's own it.
Looking back.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I don't, but in the moment I did.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, yeah, which is beautiful.
Actually, that's like such apowerful statement, looking like
in the moment you took itpersonal.
Having been removed with timeyou can see it's not.
Yeah, but your body in themoment took it personal and
that's okay.
But that's where we would workon.
And also, I just want to beclear maybe you know radical,
(22:46):
maybe you're the type of personthat you don't want someone in a
relationship to constantly keepthreatening breaking up.
That's an okay like boundary tohave.
Yeah, but I know what you mean.
But don't let your empathy forsomeone else prevent you from
having boundaries.
Right, you can understand whatsomeone is going through.
That doesn't mean you have toput up with it and you can love
(23:08):
them and they can love you, andthat still doesn't mean that
you're right for each other.
It just means that you're intwo different places right now.
I remember, kind of like again,having this empathy for someone
but not condoning it.
I remember way, way back in theday I was a new mother and my
child would cry all the time,and it was one of the first
times where I, all of a sudden,my empathy overtook myself and
(23:31):
it's like I understood why womenshake their babies.
Yeah, and it was overwhelming.
But just because I have empathywith it doesn't mean I condone
it Right.
That's what I want us to hitwith in all of our relationships
, because I think we do get inthis rut and we see this a lot
which is like what he has anavoidant attachment, or he has
(23:51):
an anxious attachment or adisorganized attachment.
It's not his fault.
He had trauma.
I could work with this.
I can understand it.
But here's the thing out of theworld, 99.9% of the people are
not bad people.
They're all doing the best thatthey can with the tools that
they have.
Even like, even like reallyterrible people.
They're not like you know theworst, like you can understand.
(24:13):
If you understood theirbackstory, you would see why
they got created the way thatthey are today and where all of
their actions come from ourdefense mechanisms.
But just because we saw somemass murderer get abused and
beaten as a kid and so, as aresult, this is his way of
taking back control does thatmean all of a sudden we're like,
oh my gosh, sweetheart, ofcourse, please go murder those
(24:36):
people.
No, and I know I'm being likeover, you know zealous.
That's the point.
So we can like kind of see the,the, the humor in it to an
extent, but it's that so I don'twant our empathy to prevent us
from setting boundaries.
How does that land when?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I say that, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I mean, I think, when it stillbothers you later.
And you know, like, when I lookback and see my avoidant
behavior in that moment, then itbothers me because I don't know
how to like, you know you can'tgo back and fix that, you can't
go back and redo that moment.
(25:15):
What about it bothers you?
Just that I wasn't secure inthat moment and that I just
reacted to avoidance withavoidance and you know I shut
down.
You know, like I have thathabit of just like when I'm hurt
then I'll shut down and thenlater I'll be like, oh, they
(25:36):
weren't, that wasn't about me.
You know what they were doing,that wasn't.
And it's like they say, you onlyget one chance to make a first
impression, like you can't goback and behave securely when,
just because you see it clearlylater, you know you can't.
Yeah, but what can you do now?
You can talk to the person andsay what you know was on your
mind in that moment, what youreally felt, but it's just hard
(25:58):
to do when it's much later.
True, but what else can we dowith?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
that information.
Do better next time.
You're ruminating on this a lot.
We've worked together for alittle while now and I've heard
this come up a couple times,which means I can tell there's a
rumination on it.
I can tell we haven't processedthrough it yet, which is
beautiful.
Keep bringing it up everysingle time.
I'm so proud of you and alsowhat it's really trying to show
you and let me know if this hitsor resonates is you don't want
(26:22):
to do that again.
Yeah, so can you see how thisrumination that you have over
here about I can't believe I didthat.
I should have been more secure.
I can't believe I foughtavoidance with avoidance.
You know I don't know whatyou're thinking, but, like you
know my mind like, oh, that wasstupid of me, why couldn't I
have been better?
Why did I mess this up?
The my mind like, oh, that wasstupid of me, why couldn't I
(26:43):
have been better?
Why did I mess this up?
The thing is is that's puttinga lot of pressure on you back
then.
First off, that's expecting youto be perfect in that
relationship, and that's justwhat I don't want to see happen.
But then also you can see howit means, how important it is to
you to get secure now.
But are we going to be able toget secure if we're shaming
ourselves for our past?
Yeah, you're right, because ifwe could heal and shame, the
(27:08):
whole world would be healed bynow.
What you thinking?
I see your eyes.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
I don't know, I guess I, just I, I think that same
thing, sometimes like oh, itmust be rumination.
And sometimes I wonder, like oh, it must be rumination.
And sometimes I wonder is itthat this was different and this
was more important to me, or isit that I'm ruminating and that
it's like in the anxious sideof my disorganized attachment
(27:36):
style?
It's hard to tell sometimes.
How do you mean more importantto you?
Just that connection was moreimportant to me, more important
how that I felt like moreunderstood than I have in the
past with other people in otherrelationships.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
That could still again be true.
It could be an importantrelationship, but that doesn't
necessarily mean.
I guess that's kind of what Iwanted to know.
I heard you saying, like, oh,this is more important, like
more important, how Moreimportant?
Such as oh, you think thatthere's a connection between the
two of you and so the two ofyou are going to work out
long-term.
Do you feel like there's like asoulmate connection going on
(28:12):
there, something like that?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, like wondering if I should still put effort
there.
Or is that just me being, youknow, ruminating anxious
attachment style?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I will always say if you feel like you need to go put
effort into something, go puteffort into it Always.
If you feel like you leftsomething on the table, go back,
communicate, fight for what youwant Always.
I will always say that that'sgood advice, yeah, but then
actually having to go throughwith it, that's the difficult
part, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think sometimes it takes a
different kind of relationship,I guess, to realize that you're
avoidant, sometimes Because,like in the past, like I was
always avoidant, but lessavoidant than the other person,
yeah, and so I didn't reallyrealize how avoidant I was, I
think, until this relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Oh, that is so true.
I didn't even know that for meit would have been the other way
.
I didn't understand that I hada disorganized attachment.
I would have thought I was justplain avoidant until I started
dating an avoidant.
And then I turned hella anxiousand I became someone.
I never understood even whothat girl was.
Sometimes.
I sometimes still am shocked bythat person of me.
(29:23):
So it's interesting what happenswhen you get into these
different relationships, whichis also why it's important
sometimes to go get into newrelationships, go learn who you
are with other people.
In fact, even if I don'tpersonally attribute or
subscribe to soulmates or twinflames or any of that kind of
stuff, I personally believe thatthere's tons of people out
there and we can make it workwith honestly anyone If you just
figure it out out there.
And we can make it work withhonestly anyone Like if you just
(29:43):
you know, if you figure it out.
That being said, if you dobelieve in this concept of like
a soulmate or like this is yourperson or like it's going to
really work, sometimes it takesmoving on getting in a new
relationship and then going backto the person.
So this is kind of a datingidea that's out there.
But you don't want your ex to beyour rebound.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, so like, if you reallywant to make it work with him,
(30:06):
go out there, learn who you are,try other people figure this
part of you out and then see, oh, he's the one I want, this is
it Like I know this is who Iwant.
And then maybe you go back andmaybe you missed your time and I
don't know.
And you know, life happens andthere's cute movies out there
about that kind of stuff.
You know where, like peoplekeep missing their timeframes
and things.
(30:27):
But who knows, maybe you get inenough relationships by the
time that both of you are 60,you are meant to be together and
that's it.
But imagine you never livedyour life that entire time you
were waiting for him.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Right, yeah, yeah, I struggle sometimes with if I
believe in that or not.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
You know that I kind of go back and forth, but I do
think I believe in it enoughthat it to soulmates or even
like past lives or you know allof that kind of stuff Like.
But all I know, all I know is aconnection is happening, like a
true attachment bond ishappening.
And I will say this 10 timesover.
You know I talk about my ex alot, but like, I say it because
(31:17):
I just I need people tounderstand that just because I'm
happily married now and I'mvery secure and I'm living the
best life I've ever been and I'mthe happiest I've ever been,
that does not mean that my soul,my heart, my body sometimes
does not just get drawn back tothat man.
Yeah, it is wild and I cannotexplain it.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, maybethat means when we're both 70,
(31:41):
we're going to find each otheragain and then we'll die in our
deathbeds together.
I don't know, maybe it means wewere together in a previous
life and that's that connectionthat's happening.
But all I know and this iswhere I finally got to it All I
know is if in the moment, whileI'm waiting to figure this out,
I'm not living my life, thenwhat am I doing?
And it might also mean I missmy opportunity to be with him
(32:03):
again, if I want to, later on.
Now, the difference here is Ithink I do have a different
mindset, where I also know, whenI look at him in a logical,
secure way, I'm not attracted tohim.
I'm attracted to somethingabout him.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it was the fact that Ijust got to live a free life
(32:25):
with him when I was dating himand I got to take time off of
being a mother, and maybe that'sreally what I'm missing half
the time when I fantasize abouthim.
I don't know what it is and Ialso have this beautiful
relationship right now.
So if anyone's talking, they'relike how the fuck can you be
talking about this ex whenyou're married, your poor
husband, like that's so unfairto him, blah, blah, blah.
(32:46):
And I'd be like no, no, he knowsall of this shit, because I'm
in a secure relationship where Ican tell him what I'm feeling
and what I'm understanding.
And hey, going back to ouroriginal conversation, he
doesn't understand anything thatI'm talking about.
He doesn't know this feelingthat I feel, but he's willing to
listen and understand and talkto me about it and he's secure
enough to know I would never doanything about it.
(33:07):
And it doesn't mean I don'tlove him deeply with all of my
heart just because I have theserandom thoughts every once in a
while.
That is how we take our bigfeelings and we turn them into
secure relationships.
Because I remember back in theday if I would have had
limerence or attraction tosomeone, I would have felt like
I'm cheating on my husband.
I would have felt shame, Iwould have felt guilt.
(33:29):
Then I'd push my husband awaybecause I'd feel bad about it.
Then our conversations would gobad, our communication would go
down.
I'd start getting disdain andcontempt in there.
This is what started happening,because I get crushes a lot.
I don't know what that is.
I don't know if I'm just like ahyper crush, like some people
(33:50):
are hypersexual.
I'm like hyper crushable.
I don't know what it is, butit's like some hot guy walks
into my class and I'm like, ohyeah, that's my new crush for
the month.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I have this like intense limerence at all times,
see, and for me it's theopposite, like I never I mean I
don't say never, but it's rarefor me to like someone to him
again.
You know, and I think I've toldyou this before, go talk to him
again make it work.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Move where you need to move, fight for him.
If you want to fight for him,tell him you love him, I don't
care what it is, put it all outon the line, open up your heart,
(34:34):
get rejected, fall flat on yourface and then get back up and
see what we can do next.
But sometimes that's what ittakes.
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, all right.
Is this a good place to startwrapping up for today?
It is All right.
Such good questions.
Thank you so much, cheryl, forasking these questions.
(34:55):
I think we hit on a lot ofreally tough and deep
conversations and I don't eventhink we fully explored the
depth of a lot of these.
So come back into the group atany time, ask these questions,
because I think, after we'vetalked about this, what's going
to happen is your mind is goingto open up in other places.
Now is what I'm hoping.
So once that happens andanother question pops up, come
(35:16):
ask in the group.
You know what I mean.
That's the best part.
Like wait, jen, hold onSomething else just opened up.
Like wait, jen, hold onSomething else just opened up.
Like, what about this, whatabout this?
And the more we keep exploringthat, the better.
I'm sure it will.
Yeah, and thank you again somuch for coming on and being
vulnerable.
And if anyone right now islistening to this and you want
to come on and do this, do youjust want to pick my brain on a
(35:36):
podcast?
You just want to be like don'tunderstand what anxious
attachment is.
Why does this keep happeningand why does my brain work this
way?
Because I keep reading about itbut nothing makes any sense.
Or maybe Cheryl's story madeyou realize you know you have a
soulmate or you have a twinflame and you want to figure out
what to do about that and youjust want more help.
Come on the podcast.
(35:57):
You can get help with that.
You can come and join us at anytime.
Just scrolling down to the shownotes, click on the link to
apply for a podcast coachingcall and I would love to have
you on.
And again, cheryl, thank you somuch.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Is there anything else, any other questions or
anything you want to say beforewe finish up, not that I can
think of now, but I'm sure Iwill think of some.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
All right.
Well, when you think of them,let me know and I will talk with
you all next week.
Take care, as we wrap uptoday's conversation, always
remember that healing is ajourney, not a destination, and
it is an honor to be a part ofyour healing journey.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we covered today, be
(36:36):
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode.
Right there, and pleaseremember to rate, review and
valuable information mentionedin today's episode right there,
and please remember to rate,review and subscribe.
If you enjoyed today's podcast,your feedback means the world
to us and helps others discoverour podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
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