Can you really be a great mom without losing yourself in the process?
In this heart-opening episode, I sit down with parenting expert and somatic coach Vivian Meraki to talk about what it really means to parent through divorce. We unpack the pressure to be the “perfect mom,” the guilt that often follows us after a breakup, and how somatic awareness can help us show up for our kids and ourselves. Whether you’re navigating co-parenting, starting over, or just trying to hold it together, you are not alone. Vivian brings so much wisdom, warmth, and practical support to help you redefine motherhood on your own terms.
You might want to listen if:
- You feel like you’re constantly self-sacrificing and losing parts of yourself as a mom
- You’re trying to break generational parenting patterns but don’t know how
- You’re struggling with guilt or shame after a divorce
- You want to model confidence, resilience, and self-trust for your kids
- You’re curious about how somatic practices can support emotional healing
About Our Guest:
Vivian Meraki is an award-winning speaker, bestselling author, and trauma-informed parenting expert who helps parent leaders break generational cycles and deeply connect with the people and things that matter to them. A former corporate leader across startups, agencies, and consultancies—including the United Nations and several healthtech companies—Vivian left burnout behind in 2020 to say yes to a different kind of success: one rooted in self-trust, emotional safety, and connection that lasts.
Links:
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- Become a Relationship Reboot Member and access all you need to become secure.
- Schedule your Free 30 min Attachment Assessment with Jenn Today!
- Watch Jenn on the 🔴 TEDx Stage!
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DISCLAIMER: Speak Honest podcast content is informational, not professional or medical advice. Jenn is an ICF relationship coach, not a licensed therapist. Consult health ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone and welcome backto another episode of Speak
Honest.
I am Jen Noble, your go-torelationship coach, and on
today's episode we are justgoing to dive right in.
(00:47):
I have one of my clients heretoday with me, cheryl, and I'm
so excited to get started inthis conversation Because when
Cheryl and I were talking aboutyou know she wanted to come on
the podcast, she wanted to getcoached for something, but she
wasn't quite sure she has thisquestion and this question and
this question session and wethought to ourselves why not
just do a pick my brain session?
So we're going to go with somerapid fire questions.
Cheryl's going to ask me anyand everything that is on her
(01:09):
mind.
You promised me you're going todo that right, cheryl?
I promise Okay.
Good, she's going to ask meanything.
She's going to hit it with meIf I don't know the answer.
I'm just going to be honestabout it.
But I think this is going to bereally fun, because I think it's
really important for us to seethat we don't need to even have
all of the ideas in our head tocome on here and get coached.
We just need to have somequestions, and that's what it's
all about.
And so if you're out thereright now and you are wanting to
(01:31):
come on to the podcast and getcoached, then all you need to do
is scroll on down to the shownotes, click on the link to
apply for the podcast and youcan ask me anything you want as
well.
You and I will spend some timetogether, you'll come on the
podcast, you'll get coached andthen you'll be able to not only
help yourself, but help acommunity of women who will be
listening as well.
(01:51):
So if you're going to getsomething out of this
conversation with Cheryl today,then just imagine how much
someone else might get out ofyour conversation.
So, with all of that said,cheryl, let's go ahead and dive
in.
What is your first question?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So my first question, I guess, is struggling with how
to word the question.
But I guess I just noticed inmy life because there was a lot
of trauma in childhood.
When I meet somebody in a newrelationship, whether that's a
friendship or a datingrelationship, I tend to relate
to people who have had a moresimilar background to me and
people that have had these veryhealthy families growing up and,
(02:30):
you know, didn't have thattrauma.
I just can't relate to them.
And so it's like, even thoughI've been doing this healing
work and, you know, working onmy attachment style, I find that
no matter how much healing I do, I still can't relate to those
people.
And so when I have thatrelationship then it's like, for
example, if you have two peoplewith disorganized attachment
(02:52):
style, you're going to strugglea lot more and so sometimes
those relationships just don'twork because between the two of
you there's too many wounds,there's too many issues that can
come up, that can damage therelationship.
And yeah, I guess I'm just kindof struggling with how to like.
When I meet somebody, I oftenfeel very open telling somebody
(03:14):
who's had a history like thatabout my childhood.
But if I meet someone that hashad a very healthy childhood.
I find myself very avoidantthen because I am like
embarrassed, and so I guess I'mjust kind of wondering like how
to try more with those kind ofrelationships and not feel that
(03:39):
like shame.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, I mean that right there, because, as you
were talking so at first, I kindof wanted to say if this is
something that's important toyou, then we work through it,
right.
If you want somebody that hasalso been through trauma or
childhood issues in your lifeand that's something that's
important, you know, maybe it'spart of your spirituality, your
values, your morals, all of that, that's a beautiful thing.
As you're still talking, I didkind of pick up on those kind of
(04:04):
red flag words, so to speak,which is to say you feel
embarrassed or you feel shame.
So I would want to start thereand I would want to ask what's
coming up for you?
Thinking about telling somesecure man, someone who had a
good set of parents, one ofthose people.
They had a happy life, theyliked their siblings, all of
(04:26):
this stuff happened.
They are out there.
It is wild, but they are outthere.
And what is the shame behindthat?
Like, tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I guess I just feel like they could never really get
it.
And so then I find myself kindof I don't want to say writing
off the relationship, but kindof having that assumption that
they wouldn't get it, and sothen I don't even want to tell
them.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
What if I just challenged that?
What if I said that's actuallya disservice to the person?
So let's just challenge it realquick, not dismissing your
feelings at all.
I think you are correct to anextent.
I think there's a lot of peopleout there that just wouldn't
get it.
I really do.
But let's say, there are somepeople.
Maybe they have seen otherpeople go through stuff.
Maybe they've seen theircousins or they've had a best
(05:09):
friend.
Maybe they, you know, took insomeone and they saw what
happened in their life.
So they're, they have theempathy to be able to understand
what's preventing us fromtalking to that person Really
nothing is preventing it.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I guess it's just I don't know, it's just really
hard for me.
Like I feel like you can justkind of you can tell who's going
to get it and who's not, andlike yeah, I just know it's a
struggle I have because I it'snot like I'm intentionally going
out looking for people who havea similar background.
But when I look at the historyof my friendships and you know,
(05:43):
romantic relationships I justfind that it's been so much
easier for me to bond if I knowthat they had something similar.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Well, that's a really good part to stop down on as
well.
It's easier to bond.
But what if we challenge that,Because that's something that we
talk a lot about in therelationship reboot group is we
do talk about kind of shakingthis idea of what we think is a
bond or what is chemistry.
You know, if I've had thatconversation before, maybe we
could get into that later too.
(06:13):
Right, what is this connectionwith someone?
And I would say, just based onmy knowledge, my training, my
expertise, my own personalsituation, I would want to
challenge us in that and saythis bond that you think you
have with somebody with trauma,is it really a bond or is there
just a level of familiarityhappening there?
(06:34):
Right, yeah absolutely.
And so if you found this secureguy let's say you found someone.
Let's say you're on Bumble andyou're swiping and you found
some guy and he likes his motherand his dad is still around and
he played catch with him as akid these freaks that are out
there that had good childhoodsand let's say you're dating this
guy then I would encourage youto just keep staying in it,
(06:58):
because to an extent that's alittle bit of our avoidant
attachment kind of popping upand coming out and saying, well,
they would never understand me,I can't ask them for things
that I need because they wouldnever understand what I'm going
through.
Such an avoidant attachmentthought process.
They would never understand.
You can't understand me, youdon't even understand.
I mean, to some extent too,there's even a potential where
you're talking with friends andthey haven't been through what
(07:19):
you've been through and youstart trying to explain
something and they either try tohelp or maybe they're
explaining their situation andyou kind of shut it down
immediately, thinking you don'tget it, you don't get me, yeah,
yeah.
That is actually a protectivemechanism inside of us.
We don't want to let them in.
So how does that land when Isay that?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I know that you're right.
I just I don't know how to likestop that.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Well in that regards, yeah, Stop that.
Well, in that regards, what Iwould encourage us for right now
is to not worry about it intheory and wait for it in
practice.
Does that make sense when I saythat?
So as soon as you find thatsecure man that you want to
start dating, let me know, andthen you and I will start
working through that together,because truly, there is no
theoretical way to work throughthis.
(08:03):
In your mind you got to just putyourself especially for an
avoidant and I know you'redisorganized, but both of us
kind of disorganized, attachment, lean, avoidant, earning,
secure in so many ways.
You've come so far, truly, andin those ways, looking at, what
is it that you want in arelationship long term, what
kind of relationship is it thatyou want?
Go out there, start meetingthose types of people.
(08:24):
Term, what kind of relationshipis it that you want?
Go out there, start meetingthose types of people and then,
once that hits, once the painhits, once the fear hits, once
the Jen I tried to tell himsomething that happened to me,
he just couldn't understand hits.
Then we decide.
But we don't just write themoff because we assume he's not
going to be able to get it.
He might surprise us, andthat's what I would encourage us
to do.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, what you thinking.
Yeah, even hearing you say thatit just kind of is I don't know
.
And I guess I never, like yousaid.
You know we lean avoidant, butI just I guess I didn't realize
that in the past because youknow, when you're with people
who are more avoidant than you,you don't really see it.
But you're right.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, yeah, and that's just that protective
mechanism that's inside of us.
So, again, I want us to to notbeat that part up.
You know what I mean.
I want us to not like, thinklike, oh, I hate this part of me
, can't she just go away?
You know all that kind of stuff.
And instead I wanted to justlook at, okay, this part.
When we have a disorganizedattachment and we are swinging
into our avoidance side, the keyas an avoidance in that moment
(09:33):
is to stay, it's to hunker down,it's to ground ourselves, it's
to anchor and it's to not beafraid.
It's not to flee.
Anxious is a different thing.
Right Over here, we need to notattach so much.
We need to let go.
We need to live our own lifeOver here, on the avoidance side
.
We're good at living our ownlife.
We're good, we're fine, wedon't need anyone.
So that's what I'm encouraged.
(09:53):
So how is that kind of in thatquestion?
Do you have any other questionsaround that?
Do you want to move on to adifferent one?
Does that kind of help explain?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, that does I mean.
I get what you mean that it'ssomething that you need to
practice in the moment.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, Actually, something just came up for me.
Can I pick this back up thisconversation?
Yeah, of course.
Do you have any friends in yourlife that you would consider
secure, that you have, that hada good childhood or anything
like that?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Not like fully secure , but you know it's a, it's a
spectrum and I would say likesecure, leaning slightly
avoidant.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Okay, well, I would encourage you to practice.
So one of the things that Ireally like doing, I like doing
myself, I like telling myclients to do is don't start
with the big romanticrelationships, don't start with
family, right, don't start withlike the eye of the tornado, so
to speak.
Start small, like find like asecure co-worker, find a secure
barista that you found behindthe counter, and like don't
(10:51):
trauma dump on them, please, butlike find someone in your life.
And if that, and if you don'thave anyone, then I would even
start us there, like so let'ssee where we can go.
Maybe there's a meetup group.
We can meet up and we can startmeeting other girls and we can
start meeting other friends andwe can start trying to see oh
hey, here's somebody, here'ssomebody that I would like in my
(11:11):
life.
They seem secure.
Let me inch into this beliefthat I have that they won't
understand me.
Let me see if they do.
And this is a long process,right, and this isn't something
that you're going to go out thisweekend and do.
This is going to be months inthe process, but it's a starting
point to get you to an exposureworkplace to start practicing
(11:32):
what it feels like to shareparts of yourself with someone
who might not understand, but insharing that, you allow them to
see a part of you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Actually, when you said trauma dump, that like made
me think.
Like, because you might think,oh, I'm going to share the good
memories, you know to start out,but when you have so little or
so few good memories, you thinkto yourself, if I tell them
anything about my childhood,it's going to be seen as trauma
dumping, you know.
But you also, you also don'twant to avoid the question if
(12:03):
they ask you about childhoodmemories and so, yeah, it just
kind of.
It's a kind of weird place tobe in sometimes.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
For sure, and it just is, and so kind of even just
learning that part and learninglike you could, or even just
saying like, eh, I don't reallyfeel like talking about my
childhood, just saying thatthat's an okay thing to say.
So, yeah, all right, great,well, I love that question so
much, and if anything else popsup around that like, let me know
, well, where else are you goingwith this in your mind?
What other questions you got?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I guess nothing else on that topic I would say Maybe
not a specific question, butjust something that you know you
had mentioned recently that Imade me think of is when you are
just have a disorganizedattachment style and you notice
that you are pushing someoneaway or someone's pushing you
(12:51):
away, I kind of struggle withlike what's the more secure
thing to do and I know you saidyou know that what's the want
behind it.
But is it kind of better topursue sometimes, if that is the
want or if you know that I'msorry, I'm trying to think of
how to word that no, this isgood.
Like if you know that thatperson is in an unhealthy space
(13:13):
with their attachment style inthe moment, do you kind of just
kind of let them have theirspace and figure it out on their
own and kind of give them timeto kind of realize, because I've
done that in the past, likeI've acted in unhealthy ways
with my disorganized attachment,and then when I sit with that,
like if somebody had tried toexplain to me in the moment, I
don't think it would have worked, like it wouldn't have, because
(13:34):
I'm, you know, too triggered inthat moment.
So sometimes I struggle if Iknow somebody is doing that to
me, like pushing me away, I getin my avoidance side and I'm
like, okay, I'm going to leaveyou alone.
You know you take your time andyou know you come to me when
you're ready.
But then I hear these storieslike yours, that it's like
sometimes it is better to keeptrying, and I know when I'm in
(13:58):
that spot and I'm being the onepushing someone away, I would
want them to keep trying.
So I guess my question is justkind of like how do you decide
what's the right move, or youknow what's needed in that
situation.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So I'm kind of hearing you ask, let's say,
you're in a situation andsomeone is shutting down or
they're pushing you away orthey're kind of getting in some
sort of triggered state, and soI'm hearing you ask what do you
do in that moment?
Is that right?
Yeah, how do you know what'sthe right move?
Yeah, well, I would say, how doyou know what the right move is
?
Ultimately going to be reallydifficult to say in a
theoretical world, because thisis going to depend.
(14:33):
Is this someone that'sincredibly important to you?
Is this somebody that you haveyears invested in this
relationship?
Is this the first time this hasever happened?
Is this a chronic problem?
Did see like situational.
It's going to be completelydependent.
So if you have a situation, Ican talk it through.
If it's theoretical, then whatwe would want to do is look at
(14:54):
all of those things and rememberhow, in the program, one of the
very first things, very firstthing we do, module one is I
make you guys put out your goalsand intentions right.
And that's why is I make youguys put out your goals and
intentions right?
Yeah, and that's why, becausewithout a goal or an intention,
we get bogged down into theweeds of what's right or wrong
and what's right or wrong isirrelevant, and you hear me say
this all the time but there isno secure action.
(15:15):
It is the intent behind whatyou're doing.
So if you're leaving someonealone because you trust them and
you love them and you're havingcompassion for them alone,
because you trust them and youlove them and you're having
compassion for them, and in themoment you're leaving them alone
, you're having grace andunderstanding and you're
checking in on them and you'rejust making sure it's okay and
you've had that conversation.
That's very secure.
I would love that you know.
Just to say like, yes, pleasetake as much time as you need,
(15:37):
sweetheart, I'm here for you assoon as you're ready.
If you're leaving them aloneand in the time apart, you're
thinking that fucking asshole, Ican't stand him.
I never want to see him again.
When he comes back to me, hebetter be on his knees
Apologizing.
In that moment You're leavingthem alone both times, aren't
you?
But the energy is verydifferent isn't it.
Yeah, yeah.
(15:58):
And so that's what I wouldencourage.
I would encourage to reallyjust dig into what is the
ultimate goal.
Do you want to stay with thisperson?
Do you want to make this work?
And I'm always down.
I'm always down to make thehard relationships work.
I will never be the type ofperson to say leave him or leave
her or don't be a part of this.
Like, if you want to make itwork, we're going to make it
work.
But that means sometimes we'regoing to have to get outside of
(16:19):
our comfort zone.
And that means, yeah, if theyare shut down and they ask for
space, then we need to check inwith ourselves.
Are we truly okay with it?
Maybe you're okay with threedays, not three weeks, and we
learned how to communicate that,and that's the secure way to
kind of hold space for thosepersons.
So tell me what's landing foryou there.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I mean that all makes sense and I guess if it is
someone that you've known longer, you can tell generally what to
do.
But what if it's somebody thatlike is newer to you and you're
not sure, great, so let's breakthis down.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
So someone's newer to you, you're not sure what they
need and in this situation, whathappens Like?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
give me like a hypothetical, you can tell that
it's obvious fear from adisorganized attachment style,
but they are just, every timethe fears come up, just wanting
to completely end therelationship.
When do you be like, okay, thiswasn't meant to be, and when do
you be like, no, I shouldprobably try a little harder to
(17:19):
show them that I care and toease those fears.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Well, again, I'll say , both of those things could be
happening at the exact same time.
You can show them you care andstill have boundaries around
what's going on, like, let's say, for example so there was a
client I had and she had achronic state of constantly
threatening to break up with herhusband.
It's just basically it's howshe got him to do what she
wanted, to be honest.
But you know, she didn't likeit very much and he's anxiously
(17:45):
attached and she leans a littlebit more avoidant.
So she was just constantly kindof like you know, if you don't
do this, we're going to divorceYears and years and years and
years of this.
But in this moment, you know,he's just kind of bending over
himself trying to win her backall the.
If she's acting like that, thesecure thing would be to say
(18:06):
listen, sweetheart, I love youso much.
I'm in this for the long haul.
I'm ready to work on this, I'mready to work with this, but you
cannot threaten divorce with meanymore.
That's just not going to happenIf you do that again, you know,
and then we'll have to come upwith what would the boundary be.
And then we help have to comeup with what would the boundary
be.
And then we help them and theythreaten it with divorce again
or breaking up or whatever it is.
(18:27):
And they, you know, they saythey're scared or they say they
don't think they can do thisanymore.
And you say, hold up, it'shappening again.
What's going on for you?
And now do you see the energyin which I can have that
conversation?
Why?
Because I'm not taking itpersonal.
Them breaking up with me is notabout me, it's about their fear
(18:47):
.
And that's the place we want toget to, where then we can say,
okay, like, I'm okay with this,like, if this is what you have
to do in order to get throughthis, I'm willing to hold space
for you, I don't mind, but youcan't say this, this is my
boundary here.
So, like, for example, I'mfeisty.
I'm a very feisty person.
You know that about me, right?
I say what's on my mind.
I cuss all the time blah, blah,blah.
But one like boundary that myhusband has with me is I can't
(19:10):
call him names.
So a little bit early on in therelationship, because I got
very used to calling my ex names, my ex-husband names, because
this is how I would fight and Iam really good at finding the
thing that hurts someone else.
Finding the thing that hurtssomeone else, it's that sweet,
sweet hypervigilance.
You know what I mean.
You can find the thing that'slike their little Achilles heel,
and so I have a name call.
Or it's say like you're adickhead or you're a bitch or
(19:32):
whatever it is right, whateverthe mean thing that's coming out
of my mouth.
Or I'm like don't be so stupid.
Or something like that.
Right, so early, early on inour relationship, we're having a
fight and I said something likethat like don't be so stupid.
Later on, during one of ourconversations about our fight,
he had mentioned that thatreally hurt his feelings and
that he would really like it ifin future arguments we don't
(19:55):
resort to name calling Now.
Does that mean I was perfect atit during our next fight?
No, because I'm still me and Istill have triggers and I still
have old attachment stances andI still have old habits.
But what it meant was I couldkeep trying and it takes.
I don't know.
I think there was the researchthat someone did recently that
(20:15):
says our brains are likechildren and it takes children
at least like 10 to 12 times tolearn something.
So you know, you'd like tellyour kid go hang up your coat.
Go hang up your coat.
Go hang up, oh my God, go hangup your freaking coat already,
right, like.
It's like takes a long time,and then they have to build the
habit.
It's the same thing in ourrelationships.
So let's say you're with thisperson and they're threatening
to break up and you tell themplease don't do that again.
(20:35):
They're going to do it again.
So let's be mindful there.
That's a great, because peoplebe like but I told him what I
needed, I told him my boundaryand he's still doing it.
It's like okay, it's going totake like 10 to 12 times.
Let's just knock that out rightnow.
It's going to become a habitand we have to help them break
that and so that's all it takesLike, okay, great.
So in this conversation with myhusband, I'm like, great, I'm
going to try really hard, butthis is a habit of mine.
(20:57):
Or you need to just like youhave every right to walk away
from me, say, oh, name calling,it's not happening, I'll be back
when you're done, and you justwalk away.
And this is what you could dowith this person, with this
partner, with anyone in yourlife that is kind of threatening
to do this and you can holdspace for them, but that's also
(21:18):
honestly, cheryl, asking a lot,that's asking you to be perfect
in that moment, and so I want tochallenge that and say that's
not necessarily fair either toyou, because I have so much
empathy for it because I used todo that, like I 100% used to be
that person to threaten toleave all the time, and so I
understand and I don't take itpersonally like you said.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I don't but first time it happened it's like I
don't know how to be on thereceiving end of it.
So the first time it happenedit's like I don't know how to be
on the receiving end of it.
So the first time it happened Ihandled it really well.
It was very forgiving, veryunderstanding.
But then it happened again andI, like you just said it, it can
take many tries or many timesof this happening before
somebody stops that behavior.
(22:01):
And I think when it happenedagain I just really got into my
avoidance side.
I was like, oh, you're doingthis again.
You must really mean it thistime.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Great.
So right there, you must reallymean it this time.
That is when you took itpersonal.
Yeah, and that's okay to say,right, let's own it.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Looking back, I don't , but in the moment I did.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, which is beautiful.
Actually, that's like such apowerful statement, looking like
in the moment you took itpersonal.
Having been removed with timeyou can see it's not, but your
body in the moment took itpersonal and that's okay.
But that's where we would workon and say okay.
And and also, I just want to beclear maybe you know radical,
(22:44):
maybe you're the type of personthat you don't want someone in a
relationship to constantly keepthreatening breaking up.
That's an okay like boundary tohave.
Yeah, but I know what you mean.
But don't let your empathy forsomeone else prevent you from
having boundaries.
You can understand what someoneis going through.
That doesn't mean you have toput up with it and you can love
them and they can love you, andthat still doesn't mean that
(23:05):
you're right for each other.
It just means that you're intwo different places right now.
I remember like again havingthis empathy for someone but not
condoning it Right.
I remember way, way back in theday I was a new mother and my
child would cry all the time,and it was one of the first
times where I, all of a sudden,my empathy overtook myself and
it's like I understood why womenshake their babies.
(23:29):
Yeah, and it was overwhelming.
But just because I have empathywith it doesn't mean I condone
it Right, yeah, that's what Iwant us to hit with in all of
our relationships, because Ithink we do get in this rut and
we see this a lot which is likehe has an avoidant attachment or
he has an anxious attachment ora disorganized attachment.
It's not his fault.
He had trauma.
I could work with this.
(23:50):
I can understand it.
But here's the thing out of theworld, 99.9% of the people are
not bad people.
They're all doing the best thatthey can with the tools that
they have, even like reallyterrible people.
They're not like you know theworst, like you can understand.
If you understood theirbackstory, you would see why
they got created the way thatthey are today and where all of
(24:12):
their actions come from ourdefense mechanisms.
But just because we saw somemass murderer get abused and
beaten as a kid and so, as aresult, this is his way of
taking back control Does thatmean all of a sudden we're like,
oh my gosh, sweetheart, ofcourse, please go murder those
people.
No, and I know I'm being likeover, you know zealous.
(24:35):
That's the point.
So we can like kind of see thehumor in it to an extent, but
it's that.
So I don't want our empathy toprevent us from setting
boundaries.
How does that?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
land.
When I say that, yeah, you'reabsolutely right.
I mean, I think when it stillbothers you later, when I look
back and see my avoidantbehavior in that moment, then it
bothers me because I don't knowhow to like you can't go back
and fix that, you can't go backand redo that moment.
What about it bothers you?
Just that I wasn't secure inthat moment and that I just
(25:07):
reacted to avoidance withavoidance and you know I shut
down.
You know, like I have thathabit of just like when I'm hurt
then I'll shut down and thenlater I'll be like, oh, they
weren't, that wasn't about me.
You know what they were doing,that wasn't.
And it's like they say say, youonly get one chance to make a
first impression, like you can'tgo back and behave securely
(25:30):
when, just because you see itclearly later, you know you
can't.
Yeah, but what can you do?
Now?
You can talk to the person andsay what you know was on your
mind in that moment, what youreally felt.
But it's just hard to do whenit's much later.
True, but what else can we do?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
with that information .
Do better next time.
You're ruminating on this a lot.
We've worked together for alittle while now and I've heard
this come up a couple times,which means I can tell there's a
rumination on it.
I can tell we haven't processedthrough it yet, which is
beautiful.
Keep bringing it up everysingle time.
I'm so proud of you and alsowhat think it's really trying to
show you and let me know ifthis hits or resonates is you
(26:05):
don't want to do that again.
Yeah, so can you see how thisrumination that you have over
here about I can't believe I didthat.
I should have been more secure.
I can't believe I foughtavoidance with avoidance.
I don't know what you'rethinking, but like you know my
mind like, oh, that was stupidof me.
Why couldn't I have been better?
Why did I mess this up?
The thing is, is that's puttinga lot of pressure on you back
(26:27):
then?
First off, that's expecting youto be perfect in that
relationship, and that's justwhat I don't want to see happen.
But then also you can see howit means, how important it is to
you to get secure now.
But are we going to be able toget secure if we're shaming
ourselves for our past.
Yeah, you're right, because ifwe could heal and shame, the
(26:48):
whole world would be healed bynow.
What you thinking?
I see your eyes.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I don't know, I guess I just I think that same thing
sometimes like oh, it must berumination.
And sometimes I wonder is itthat this was different and this
was more important to me?
Or is it that I'm ruminatingand that it's like in the
anxious side of my disorganizedattachment style?
It's hard to tell sometimes.
(27:15):
How do you mean more importantto you?
Just that connection was moreimportant to me, more important
how that I felt like moreunderstood than I have in the
past with other people in otherrelationships.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That could still again be true.
It could be an importantrelationship.
I guess that's kind of what Iwanted to know.
I heard you saying like oh,this is more important, like
more important, how moreimportant?
Such as oh, you think thatthere's a connection between the
two of you and so the two ofyou are going to work out long
term.
Do you feel like there's like asoulmate connection going on
there, something like that?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, like wondering if I should still put effort
there.
Or is that just me being, youknow, ruminating?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
anxious attachment style.
I will always say if you feellike you need to go put effort
into something, go put effortinto it Always.
If you feel like you leftsomething on the table, go back,
communicate, fight for what youwant.
Always.
I will always say that that'sgood advice, but then actually
having to go through with it,that's the difficult part, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, yeah, I think sometimes it takes a different
kind of relationship, I guess,to realize that you're avoidant,
sometimes Because in the past Iwas always avoidant, because,
like in the past, like I wasalways avoidant, but less
avoidant than the other person,and so I didn't really realize
how avoidant I was, I think,until this relationship.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Oh, that is so true.
I didn't even know that for meit would have been the other way
.
Like I didn't understand that Ihad a disorganized attachment.
I would have thought I was justplain avoidant until I started
dating an avoidant.
And then I turned hella anxiousand I became someone.
I never understood even whothat girl was.
Sometimes.
I sometimes still am shocked bythat person of me.
So it's interesting what happenswhen you get into these
(28:54):
different relationships, whichis also why it's important
sometimes to go get into newrelationships, go learn who you
are with other people.
In fact, even if I don'tpersonally attribute or
subscribe to soulmates or twinflames or any of that kind of
stuff, I personally believe thatthere's tons of people out
there and we can make it workwith honestly anyone Like if you
just you know, if you figure itout.
(29:15):
That being said, if you dobelieve in this concept of a
soulmate or like this is yourperson or like it's going to
really work.
Sometimes it takes moving on,getting in a new relationship
and then going back to theperson.
So this is kind of a datingidea that's out there, but you
don't want your ex to be yourrebound.
(29:35):
Does that make sense, yeah.
So like, if you really want tomake it work with him, go out
there, learn who you are, tryother people figure this part of
you out and then see, oh, he'sthe one I want.
This is it Like I know, this iswho I want.
And then maybe you go back andmaybe you missed your time and I
don't know.
And you know, life happens andthere's cute movies out there
(29:56):
about that kind of stuff.
You know where, like peoplekeep missing their timeframes
and things.
But who knows, maybe you, youget in enough relationships by
the time the both of you are 60,you are meant to be together
and that's it.
But imagine you never livedyour life that entire time you
were waiting for him.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Right, yeah.
Yeah, I struggle sometimes withif I believe in that or not.
You know that I kind of go backand forth, but I do think I
believe in it enough that itmakes me struggle, for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I agree, I'm kind of the same way.
If we get into like a slightlyphilosophical conversation here,
as you know, we start kind ofwrapping up is I don't know what
I believe in sometimes when itcomes to soulmates or even like
past lives or you know all ofthat kind of stuff Like.
But all I know, all I know, isa connection is happening, like
a true attachment bond ishappening.
(30:44):
I will say this 10 times over.
You know I talk about my ex alot but, like I say it because I
need people to understand thatjust because I'm happily married
now and I'm very secure and I'mliving the best life I've ever
been and I'm the happiest I'veever been, that does not mean
that my soul, my heart, my bodysometimes does not just get
drawn back to that man.
(31:05):
Yeah, it is wild and I cannotexplain it.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, maybethat means when we're both 70,
we're going to find each otheragain and then we'll die in our
deathbeds together.
I don't know, maybe it means wewere together in a previous
life and that's that connectionthat's happening.
But all I know and this iswhere I finally got to it all I
(31:26):
know is if in the moment, whileI'm waiting to figure this out,
I'm not living my life.
Then what am I doing?
And it might also mean I missmy opportunity to be with him
again, if I want to, later on.
Now, the difference here is Ithink I do have a different
mindset, where I also know, whenI look at him in a logical,
(31:47):
secure way, I'm not attracted tohim.
I'm attracted to somethingabout him.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it was the fact that Ijust got to live a free life
with him when I was dating himand I got to take time off of
being a mother, and maybe that'sreally what I'm missing half
the time when I fantasize abouthim.
I don't know what it is, and Ialso have this beautiful
(32:08):
relationship right now.
So if anyone's talking, they'relike how the fuck can you be
talking about this ex whenyou're married, your poor
husband that's so unfair to him,blah, blah, blah.
And I'd be like no, no, heknows all of this shit, because
I'm in a secure relationshipwhere I can tell him what I'm
feeling and what I'munderstanding.
And hey, going back to ouroriginal conversation, he
doesn't understand anything thatI'm talking about.
(32:30):
He doesn't know this feelingthat I feel, but he's willing to
listen and understand and talkto me about it and he's secure
enough to know I would never doanything about it.
And it doesn't mean I don'tlove him deeply with all of my
heart just because I have theserandom thoughts every once in a
while.
That is how we take our bigfeelings and we turn them into
(32:51):
secure relationships.
Because I remember back in theday, if I would have had
limerence or attraction tosomeone, I would have felt like
I'm cheating on my husband.
I would have felt shame, Iwould have felt guilt.
Then I'd push my husband awaybecause I'd feel bad about it.
Then our conversations would gobad, our communication would go
down, I'd start getting disdainand contempt in there.
And this is what startedhappening.
Because I get crushes a lot.
(33:14):
I don't know what that is.
I don't know if I'm just likesome people are hypersexual, I'm
like hyper crushable.
I don't know what it is, butit's just like some hot guy
walks into my class and I'm like, oh yeah, that's my new crush
for the month.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I have this like intense limerence at all times,
see, and for me it's theopposite, like I never I mean I
don't say never, but it's rarefor me to like someone.
So then, when I do when you doit feels that much more
important, big deal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
And so I think the key here for both of us, for
anyone listening Don't shamethat part of you, follow it and
explore it.
And so, yeah, if you want to gotalk to him again, you know,
and I think I've told you thisbefore go talk to him again,
make it work, move where youneed to move, fight for him.
If you want to fight for him,tell him you love him.
I don't care what it is, put itall out on the line.
(34:01):
Open up your heart, getrejected, fall flat on your face
and then get back up and seewhat we can do next.
But sometimes that's what ittakes.
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, all right.
Is this a good place to startwrapping up for today?
It is All right.
Such good questions.
Thank you so much, cheryl, forasking these questions.
(34:22):
I think we hit on a lot ofreally tough and deep
conversations and I don't eventhink I think we hit on a lot of
really tough and deepconversations and I don't even
think we fully explored thedepth of a lot of these.
So come back into the group atany time, ask these questions,
because I think, after we'vetalked about this, what's going
to happen is your mind is goingto open up in other places.
Now is what I'm hoping.
So once that happens andanother question pops up, come
(34:44):
ask in the group.
You know what I mean.
Like that's the best part.
Like wait, jen, hold on.
Something else just opened up.
Like what about this, whatabout this?
And the more we keep exploringthat, the better.
I'm sure it will.
Yeah, and thank you again somuch for coming on and being
vulnerable.
And if anyone right now islistening to this and you want
to come on and do this, do youjust want to pick my brain on a
podcast?
(35:04):
You just want to be like I justdon't understand what anxious
attachment is.
Why does this keep happeningand why does my brain work this
way?
Because I keep reading about itbut nothing makes any sense.
Or maybe Cheryl's story madeyou realize you know you have a
soulmate or you have a twinflame and you want to figure out
what to do about that and youjust want more help.
Come on the podcast.
(35:24):
You can get help with that.
You can come and join us at anytime.
Just scroll on down to the shownotes, click on the link to
apply for a podcast coachingcall and I would love to have
you on.
And again, cheryl, thank you somuch.
Is there anything else, anyother questions or anything you
want to say before we finish up?
Not that I can think of now,but I'm sure I will think of
some.
All right.
Well, when you think of them,let me know and I will talk with
(35:46):
you all next week.
Take care, as we wrap uptoday's conversation, always
remember that healing is ajourney, not a destination, and
it is an honor to be a part ofyour healing journey.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we covered today, be
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
(36:06):
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode
right there.
And please remember to rate,review and subscribe if you
enjoyed today's podcast.
Your feedback means the worldto us and helps others discover
our podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone and welcome backto another episode of Speak
Honest.
I am Jen Noble, your go-torelationship coach, and on
today's episode we are justgoing to dive right in.
(00:47):
I have one of my clients heretoday with me, cheryl, and I'm
so excited to get started inthis conversation Because when
Cheryl and I were talking aboutyou know she wanted to come on
the podcast, she wanted to getcoached for something, but she
wasn't quite sure she has thisquestion and this question and
this question session and wethought to ourselves why not
just do a pick my brain session?
So we're going to go with somerapid fire questions.
Cheryl's going to ask me anyand everything that is on her
(01:09):
mind.
You promised me you're going todo that right, cheryl?
I promise Okay.
Good, she's going to ask meanything.
She's going to hit it with meIf I don't know the answer.
I'm just going to be honestabout it.
But I think this is going to bereally fun, because I think it's
really important for us to seethat we don't need to even have
all of the ideas in our head tocome on here and get coached.
We just need to have somequestions, and that's what it's
all about.
And so if you're out thereright now and you are wanting to
(01:31):
come on to the podcast and getcoached, then all you need to do
is scroll on down to the shownotes, click on the link to
apply for the podcast and youcan ask me anything you want as
well.
You and I will spend some timetogether, you'll come on the
podcast, you'll get coached andthen you'll be able to not only
help yourself, but help acommunity of women who will be
listening as well.
(01:51):
So if you're going to getsomething out of this
conversation with Cheryl today,then just imagine how much
someone else might get out ofyour conversation.
So, with all of that said,cheryl, let's go ahead and dive
in.
What is your first question?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So my first question, I guess, is struggling with how
to word the question.
But I guess I just noticed inmy life because there was a lot
of trauma in childhood.
When I meet somebody in a newrelationship, whether that's a
friendship or a datingrelationship, I tend to relate
to people who have had a moresimilar background to me and
people that have had these veryhealthy families growing up and,
(02:30):
you know, didn't have thattrauma.
I just can't relate to them.
And so it's like, even thoughI've been doing this healing
work and, you know, working onmy attachment style, I find that
no matter how much healing I do, I still can't relate to those
people.
And so when I have thatrelationship then it's like, for
example, if you have two peoplewith disorganized attachment
(02:52):
style, you're going to strugglea lot more and so sometimes
those relationships just don'twork because between the two of
you there's too many wounds,there's too many issues that can
come up, that can damage therelationship.
And yeah, I guess I'm just kindof struggling with how to like.
When I meet somebody, I oftenfeel very open telling somebody
(03:14):
who's had a history like thatabout my childhood.
But if I meet someone that hashad a very healthy childhood.
I find myself very avoidantthen because I am like
embarrassed, and so I guess I'mjust kind of wondering like how
to try more with those kind ofrelationships and not feel that
(03:39):
like shame.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, I mean that right there, because, as you
were talking so at first, I kindof wanted to say if this is
something that's important toyou, then we work through it,
right.
If you want somebody that hasalso been through trauma or
childhood issues in your lifeand that's something that's
important, you know, maybe it'spart of your spirituality, your
values, your morals, all of that, that's a beautiful thing.
As you're still talking, I didkind of pick up on those kind of
(04:04):
red flag words, so to speak,which is to say you feel
embarrassed or you feel shame.
So I would want to start thereand I would want to ask what's
coming up for you?
Thinking about telling somesecure man, someone who had a
good set of parents, one ofthose people.
They had a happy life, theyliked their siblings, all of
(04:26):
this stuff happened.
They are out there.
It is wild, but they are outthere.
And what is the shame behindthat?
Like, tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I guess I just feel like they could never really get
it.
And so then I find myself kindof I don't want to say writing
off the relationship, but kindof having that assumption that
they wouldn't get it, and sothen I don't even want to tell
them.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
What if I just challenged that?
What if I said that's actuallya disservice to the person?
So let's just challenge it realquick, not dismissing your
feelings at all.
I think you are correct to anextent.
I think there's a lot of peopleout there that just wouldn't
get it.
I really do.
But let's say, there are somepeople.
Maybe they have seen otherpeople go through stuff.
Maybe they've seen theircousins or they've had a best
(05:09):
friend.
Maybe they, you know, took insomeone and they saw what
happened in their life.
So they're, they have theempathy to be able to understand
what's preventing us fromtalking to that person Really
nothing is preventing it.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I guess it's just I don't know, it's just really
hard for me.
Like I feel like you can justkind of you can tell who's going
to get it and who's not, andlike yeah, I just know it's a
struggle I have because I it'snot like I'm intentionally going
out looking for people who havea similar background.
But when I look at the historyof my friendships and you know,
(05:43):
romantic relationships I justfind that it's been so much
easier for me to bond if I knowthat they had something similar.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Well, that's a really good part to stop down on as
well.
It's easier to bond.
But what if we challenge that,Because that's something that we
talk a lot about in therelationship reboot group is we
do talk about kind of shakingthis idea of what we think is a
bond or what is chemistry.
You know, if I've had thatconversation before, maybe we
could get into that later too.
(06:13):
Right, what is this connectionwith someone?
And I would say, just based onmy knowledge, my training, my
expertise, my own personalsituation, I would want to
challenge us in that and saythis bond that you think you
have with somebody with trauma,is it really a bond or is there
just a level of familiarityhappening there?
(06:34):
Right, yeah absolutely.
And so if you found this secureguy let's say you found someone.
Let's say you're on Bumble andyou're swiping and you found
some guy and he likes his motherand his dad is still around and
he played catch with him as akid these freaks that are out
there that had good childhoodsand let's say you're dating this
guy then I would encourage youto just keep staying in it,
(06:58):
because to an extent that's alittle bit of our avoidant
attachment kind of popping upand coming out and saying, well,
they would never understand me,I can't ask them for things
that I need because they wouldnever understand what I'm going
through.
Such an avoidant attachmentthought process.
They would never understand.
You can't understand me, youdon't even understand.
I mean, to some extent too,there's even a potential where
you're talking with friends andthey haven't been through what
(07:19):
you've been through and youstart trying to explain
something and they either try tohelp or maybe they're
explaining their situation andyou kind of shut it down
immediately, thinking you don'tget it, you don't get me, yeah,
yeah.
That is actually a protectivemechanism inside of us.
We don't want to let them in.
So how does that land when Isay that?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I know that you're right.
I just I don't know how to likestop that.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Well in that regards, yeah, Stop that.
Well, in that regards, what Iwould encourage us for right now
is to not worry about it intheory and wait for it in
practice.
Does that make sense when I saythat?
So as soon as you find thatsecure man that you want to
start dating, let me know, andthen you and I will start
working through that together,because truly, there is no
theoretical way to work throughthis.
(08:03):
In your mind you got to just putyourself especially for an
avoidant and I know you'redisorganized, but both of us
kind of disorganized, attachment, lean, avoidant, earning,
secure in so many ways.
You've come so far, truly, andin those ways, looking at, what
is it that you want in arelationship long term, what
kind of relationship is it thatyou want?
Go out there, start meetingthose types of people.
(08:24):
Term, what kind of relationshipis it that you want?
Go out there, start meetingthose types of people and then,
once that hits, once the painhits, once the fear hits, once
the Jen I tried to tell himsomething that happened to me,
he just couldn't understand hits.
Then we decide.
But we don't just write themoff because we assume he's not
going to be able to get it.
He might surprise us, andthat's what I would encourage us
to do.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, what you thinking.
Yeah, even hearing you say thatit just kind of is I don't know
.
And I guess I never, like yousaid.
You know we lean avoidant, butI just I guess I didn't realize
that in the past because youknow, when you're with people
who are more avoidant than you,you don't really see it.
But you're right.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, yeah, and that's just that protective
mechanism that's inside of us.
So, again, I want us to to notbeat that part up.
You know what I mean.
I want us to not like, thinklike, oh, I hate this part of me
, can't she just go away?
You know all that kind of stuff.
And instead I wanted to justlook at, okay, this part.
When we have a disorganizedattachment and we are swinging
into our avoidance side, the keyas an avoidance in that moment
(09:33):
is to stay, it's to hunker down,it's to ground ourselves, it's
to anchor and it's to not beafraid.
It's not to flee.
Anxious is a different thing.
Right Over here, we need to notattach so much.
We need to let go.
We need to live our own lifeOver here, on the avoidance side
.
We're good at living our ownlife.
We're good, we're fine, wedon't need anyone.
So that's what I'm encouraged.
(09:53):
So how is that kind of in thatquestion?
Do you have any other questionsaround that?
Do you want to move on to adifferent one?
Does that kind of help explain?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, that does I mean.
I get what you mean that it'ssomething that you need to
practice in the moment.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, Actually, something just came up for me.
Can I pick this back up thisconversation?
Yeah, of course.
Do you have any friends in yourlife that you would consider
secure, that you have, that hada good childhood or anything
like that?
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Not like fully secure , but you know it's a, it's a
spectrum and I would say likesecure, leaning slightly
avoidant.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Okay, well, I would encourage you to practice.
So one of the things that Ireally like doing, I like doing
myself, I like telling myclients to do is don't start
with the big romanticrelationships, don't start with
family, right, don't start withlike the eye of the tornado, so
to speak.
Start small, like find like asecure co-worker, find a secure
barista that you found behindthe counter, and like don't
(10:51):
trauma dump on them, please, butlike find someone in your life.
And if that, and if you don'thave anyone, then I would even
start us there, like so let'ssee where we can go.
Maybe there's a meetup group.
We can meet up and we can startmeeting other girls and we can
start meeting other friends andwe can start trying to see oh
hey, here's somebody, here'ssomebody that I would like in my
(11:11):
life.
They seem secure.
Let me inch into this beliefthat I have that they won't
understand me.
Let me see if they do.
And this is a long process,right, and this isn't something
that you're going to go out thisweekend and do.
This is going to be months inthe process, but it's a starting
point to get you to an exposureworkplace to start practicing
(11:32):
what it feels like to shareparts of yourself with someone
who might not understand, but insharing that, you allow them to
see a part of you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Actually, when you said trauma dump, that like made
me think.
Like, because you might think,oh, I'm going to share the good
memories, you know to start out,but when you have so little or
so few good memories, you thinkto yourself, if I tell them
anything about my childhood,it's going to be seen as trauma
dumping, you know.
But you also, you also don'twant to avoid the question if
(12:03):
they ask you about childhoodmemories and so, yeah, it just
kind of.
It's a kind of weird place tobe in sometimes.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
For sure, and it just is, and so kind of even just
learning that part and learninglike you could, or even just
saying like, eh, I don't reallyfeel like talking about my
childhood, just saying thatthat's an okay thing to say.
So, yeah, all right, great,well, I love that question so
much, and if anything else popsup around that like, let me know
, well, where else are you goingwith this in your mind?
What other questions you got?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I guess nothing else on that topic I would say Maybe
not a specific question, butjust something that you know you
had mentioned recently that Imade me think of is when you are
just have a disorganizedattachment style and you notice
that you are pushing someoneaway or someone's pushing you
(12:51):
away, I kind of struggle withlike what's the more secure
thing to do and I know you saidyou know that what's the want
behind it.
But is it kind of better topursue sometimes, if that is the
want or if you know that I'msorry, I'm trying to think of
how to word that no, this isgood.
Like if you know that thatperson is in an unhealthy space
(13:13):
with their attachment style inthe moment, do you kind of just
kind of let them have theirspace and figure it out on their
own and kind of give them timeto kind of realize, because I've
done that in the past, likeI've acted in unhealthy ways
with my disorganized attachment,and then when I sit with that,
like if somebody had tried toexplain to me in the moment, I
don't think it would have worked, like it wouldn't have, because
(13:34):
I'm, you know, too triggered inthat moment.
So sometimes I struggle if Iknow somebody is doing that to
me, like pushing me away, I getin my avoidance side and I'm
like, okay, I'm going to leaveyou alone.
You know you take your time andyou know you come to me when
you're ready.
But then I hear these storieslike yours, that it's like
sometimes it is better to keeptrying, and I know when I'm in
(13:58):
that spot and I'm being the onepushing someone away, I would
want them to keep trying.
So I guess my question is justkind of like how do you decide
what's the right move, or youknow what's needed in that
situation.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So I'm kind of hearing you ask, let's say,
you're in a situation andsomeone is shutting down or
they're pushing you away orthey're kind of getting in some
sort of triggered state, and soI'm hearing you ask what do you
do in that moment?
Is that right?
Yeah, how do you know what'sthe right move?
Yeah, well, I would say, how doyou know what the right move is
?
Ultimately going to be reallydifficult to say in a
theoretical world, because thisis going to depend.
(14:33):
Is this someone that'sincredibly important to you?
Is this somebody that you haveyears invested in this
relationship?
Is this the first time this hasever happened?
Is this a chronic problem?
Did see like situational.
It's going to be completelydependent.
So if you have a situation, Ican talk it through.
If it's theoretical, then whatwe would want to do is look at
(14:54):
all of those things and rememberhow, in the program, one of the
very first things, very firstthing we do, module one is I
make you guys put out your goalsand intentions right.
And that's why is I make youguys put out your goals and
intentions right?
Yeah, and that's why, becausewithout a goal or an intention,
we get bogged down into theweeds of what's right or wrong
and what's right or wrong isirrelevant, and you hear me say
this all the time but there isno secure action.
(15:15):
It is the intent behind whatyou're doing.
So if you're leaving someonealone because you trust them and
you love them and you're havingcompassion for them alone,
because you trust them and youlove them and you're having
compassion for them, and in themoment you're leaving them alone
, you're having grace andunderstanding and you're
checking in on them and you'rejust making sure it's okay and
you've had that conversation.
That's very secure.
I would love that you know.
Just to say like, yes, pleasetake as much time as you need,
(15:37):
sweetheart, I'm here for you assoon as you're ready.
If you're leaving them aloneand in the time apart, you're
thinking that fucking asshole, Ican't stand him.
I never want to see him again.
When he comes back to me, hebetter be on his knees
Apologizing.
In that moment You're leavingthem alone both times, aren't
you?
But the energy is verydifferent isn't it.
Yeah, yeah.
(15:58):
And so that's what I wouldencourage.
I would encourage to reallyjust dig into what is the
ultimate goal.
Do you want to stay with thisperson?
Do you want to make this work?
And I'm always down.
I'm always down to make thehard relationships work.
I will never be the type ofperson to say leave him or leave
her or don't be a part of this.
Like, if you want to make itwork, we're going to make it
work.
But that means sometimes we'regoing to have to get outside of
(16:19):
our comfort zone.
And that means, yeah, if theyare shut down and they ask for
space, then we need to check inwith ourselves.
Are we truly okay with it?
Maybe you're okay with threedays, not three weeks, and we
learned how to communicate that,and that's the secure way to
kind of hold space for thosepersons.
So tell me what's landing foryou there.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I mean that all makes sense and I guess if it is
someone that you've known longer, you can tell generally what to
do.
But what if it's somebody thatlike is newer to you and you're
not sure, great, so let's breakthis down.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
So someone's newer to you, you're not sure what they
need and in this situation, whathappens Like?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
give me like a hypothetical, you can tell that
it's obvious fear from adisorganized attachment style,
but they are just, every timethe fears come up, just wanting
to completely end therelationship.
When do you be like, okay, thiswasn't meant to be, and when do
you be like, no, I shouldprobably try a little harder to
(17:19):
show them that I care and toease those fears.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Well, again, I'll say , both of those things could be
happening at the exact same time.
You can show them you care andstill have boundaries around
what's going on, like, let's say, for example so there was a
client I had and she had achronic state of constantly
threatening to break up with herhusband.
It's just basically it's howshe got him to do what she
wanted, to be honest.
But you know, she didn't likeit very much and he's anxiously
(17:45):
attached and she leans a littlebit more avoidant.
So she was just constantly kindof like you know, if you don't
do this, we're going to divorceYears and years and years and
years of this.
But in this moment, you know,he's just kind of bending over
himself trying to win her backall the.
If she's acting like that, thesecure thing would be to say
(18:06):
listen, sweetheart, I love youso much.
I'm in this for the long haul.
I'm ready to work on this, I'mready to work with this, but you
cannot threaten divorce with meanymore.
That's just not going to happenIf you do that again, you know,
and then we'll have to come upwith what would the boundary be.
And then we help have to comeup with what would the boundary
be.
And then we help them and theythreaten it with divorce again
or breaking up or whatever it is.
(18:27):
And they, you know, they saythey're scared or they say they
don't think they can do thisanymore.
And you say, hold up, it'shappening again.
What's going on for you?
And now do you see the energyin which I can have that
conversation?
Why?
Because I'm not taking itpersonal.
Them breaking up with me is notabout me, it's about their fear
(18:47):
.
And that's the place we want toget to, where then we can say,
okay, like, I'm okay with this,like, if this is what you have
to do in order to get throughthis, I'm willing to hold space
for you, I don't mind, but youcan't say this, this is my
boundary here.
So, like, for example, I'mfeisty.
I'm a very feisty person.
You know that about me, right?
I say what's on my mind.
I cuss all the time blah, blah,blah.
But one like boundary that myhusband has with me is I can't
(19:10):
call him names.
So a little bit early on in therelationship, because I got
very used to calling my ex names, my ex-husband names, because
this is how I would fight and Iam really good at finding the
thing that hurts someone else.
Finding the thing that hurtssomeone else, it's that sweet,
sweet hypervigilance.
You know what I mean.
You can find the thing that'slike their little Achilles heel,
and so I have a name call.
Or it's say like you're adickhead or you're a bitch or
(19:32):
whatever it is right, whateverthe mean thing that's coming out
of my mouth.
Or I'm like don't be so stupid.
Or something like that.
Right, so early, early on inour relationship, we're having a
fight and I said something likethat like don't be so stupid.
Later on, during one of ourconversations about our fight,
he had mentioned that thatreally hurt his feelings and
that he would really like it ifin future arguments we don't
(19:55):
resort to name calling Now.
Does that mean I was perfect atit during our next fight?
No, because I'm still me and Istill have triggers and I still
have old attachment stances andI still have old habits.
But what it meant was I couldkeep trying and it takes.
I don't know.
I think there was the researchthat someone did recently that
(20:15):
says our brains are likechildren and it takes children
at least like 10 to 12 times tolearn something.
So you know, you'd like tellyour kid go hang up your coat.
Go hang up your coat.
Go hang up, oh my God, go hangup your freaking coat already,
right, like.
It's like takes a long time,and then they have to build the
habit.
It's the same thing in ourrelationships.
So let's say you're with thisperson and they're threatening
to break up and you tell themplease don't do that again.
(20:35):
They're going to do it again.
So let's be mindful there.
That's a great, because peoplebe like but I told him what I
needed, I told him my boundaryand he's still doing it.
It's like okay, it's going totake like 10 to 12 times.
Let's just knock that out rightnow.
It's going to become a habitand we have to help them break
that and so that's all it takesLike, okay, great.
So in this conversation with myhusband, I'm like, great, I'm
going to try really hard, butthis is a habit of mine.
(20:57):
Or you need to just like youhave every right to walk away
from me, say, oh, name calling,it's not happening, I'll be back
when you're done, and you justwalk away.
And this is what you could dowith this person, with this
partner, with anyone in yourlife that is kind of threatening
to do this and you can holdspace for them, but that's also
(21:18):
honestly, cheryl, asking a lot,that's asking you to be perfect
in that moment, and so I want tochallenge that and say that's
not necessarily fair either toyou, because I have so much
empathy for it because I used todo that, like I 100% used to be
that person to threaten toleave all the time, and so I
understand and I don't take itpersonally like you said.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I don't but first time it happened it's like I
don't know how to be on thereceiving end of it.
So the first time it happenedit's like I don't know how to be
on the receiving end of it.
So the first time it happened Ihandled it really well.
It was very forgiving, veryunderstanding.
But then it happened again andI, like you just said it, it can
take many tries or many timesof this happening before
somebody stops that behavior.
(22:01):
And I think when it happenedagain I just really got into my
avoidance side.
I was like, oh, you're doingthis again.
You must really mean it thistime.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Great.
So right there, you must reallymean it this time.
That is when you took itpersonal.
Yeah, and that's okay to say,right, let's own it.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Looking back, I don't , but in the moment I did.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, which is beautiful.
Actually, that's like such apowerful statement, looking like
in the moment you took itpersonal.
Having been removed with timeyou can see it's not, but your
body in the moment took itpersonal and that's okay.
But that's where we would workon and say okay.
And and also, I just want to beclear maybe you know radical,
(22:44):
maybe you're the type of personthat you don't want someone in a
relationship to constantly keepthreatening breaking up.
That's an okay like boundary tohave.
Yeah, but I know what you mean.
But don't let your empathy forsomeone else prevent you from
having boundaries.
You can understand what someoneis going through.
That doesn't mean you have toput up with it and you can love
them and they can love you, andthat still doesn't mean that
(23:05):
you're right for each other.
It just means that you're intwo different places right now.
I remember like again havingthis empathy for someone but not
condoning it Right.
I remember way, way back in theday I was a new mother and my
child would cry all the time,and it was one of the first
times where I, all of a sudden,my empathy overtook myself and
it's like I understood why womenshake their babies.
(23:29):
Yeah, and it was overwhelming.
But just because I have empathywith it doesn't mean I condone
it Right, yeah, that's what Iwant us to hit with in all of
our relationships, because Ithink we do get in this rut and
we see this a lot which is likehe has an avoidant attachment or
he has an anxious attachment ora disorganized attachment.
It's not his fault.
He had trauma.
I could work with this.
(23:50):
I can understand it.
But here's the thing out of theworld, 99.9% of the people are
not bad people.
They're all doing the best thatthey can with the tools that
they have, even like reallyterrible people.
They're not like you know theworst, like you can understand.
If you understood theirbackstory, you would see why
they got created the way thatthey are today and where all of
(24:12):
their actions come from ourdefense mechanisms.
But just because we saw somemass murderer get abused and
beaten as a kid and so, as aresult, this is his way of
taking back control Does thatmean all of a sudden we're like,
oh my gosh, sweetheart, ofcourse, please go murder those
people.
No, and I know I'm being likeover, you know zealous.
(24:35):
That's the point.
So we can like kind of see thehumor in it to an extent, but
it's that.
So I don't want our empathy toprevent us from setting
boundaries.
How does that?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
land.
When I say that, yeah, you'reabsolutely right.
I mean, I think when it stillbothers you later, when I look
back and see my avoidantbehavior in that moment, then it
bothers me because I don't knowhow to like you can't go back
and fix that, you can't go backand redo that moment.
What about it bothers you?
Just that I wasn't secure inthat moment and that I just
(25:07):
reacted to avoidance withavoidance and you know I shut
down.
You know, like I have thathabit of just like when I'm hurt
then I'll shut down and thenlater I'll be like, oh, they
weren't, that wasn't about me.
You know what they were doing,that wasn't.
And it's like they say say, youonly get one chance to make a
first impression, like you can'tgo back and behave securely
(25:30):
when, just because you see itclearly later, you know you
can't.
Yeah, but what can you do?
Now?
You can talk to the person andsay what you know was on your
mind in that moment, what youreally felt.
But it's just hard to do whenit's much later.
True, but what else can we do?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
with that information .
Do better next time.
You're ruminating on this a lot.
We've worked together for alittle while now and I've heard
this come up a couple times,which means I can tell there's a
rumination on it.
I can tell we haven't processedthrough it yet, which is
beautiful.
Keep bringing it up everysingle time.
I'm so proud of you and alsowhat think it's really trying to
show you and let me know ifthis hits or resonates is you
(26:05):
don't want to do that again.
Yeah, so can you see how thisrumination that you have over
here about I can't believe I didthat.
I should have been more secure.
I can't believe I foughtavoidance with avoidance.
I don't know what you'rethinking, but like you know my
mind like, oh, that was stupidof me.
Why couldn't I have been better?
Why did I mess this up?
The thing is, is that's puttinga lot of pressure on you back
(26:27):
then?
First off, that's expecting youto be perfect in that
relationship, and that's justwhat I don't want to see happen.
But then also you can see howit means, how important it is to
you to get secure now.
But are we going to be able toget secure if we're shaming
ourselves for our past.
Yeah, you're right, because ifwe could heal and shame, the
(26:48):
whole world would be healed bynow.
What you thinking?
I see your eyes.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
I don't know, I guess I just I think that same thing
sometimes like oh, it must berumination.
And sometimes I wonder is itthat this was different and this
was more important to me?
Or is it that I'm ruminatingand that it's like in the
anxious side of my disorganizedattachment style?
It's hard to tell sometimes.
(27:15):
How do you mean more importantto you?
Just that connection was moreimportant to me, more important
how that I felt like moreunderstood than I have in the
past with other people in otherrelationships.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That could still again be true.
It could be an importantrelationship.
I guess that's kind of what Iwanted to know.
I heard you saying like oh,this is more important, like
more important, how moreimportant?
Such as oh, you think thatthere's a connection between the
two of you and so the two ofyou are going to work out long
term.
Do you feel like there's like asoulmate connection going on
there, something like that?
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, like wondering if I should still put effort
there.
Or is that just me being, youknow, ruminating?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
anxious attachment style.
I will always say if you feellike you need to go put effort
into something, go put effortinto it Always.
If you feel like you leftsomething on the table, go back,
communicate, fight for what youwant.
Always.
I will always say that that'sgood advice, but then actually
having to go through with it,that's the difficult part, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, yeah, I think sometimes it takes a different
kind of relationship, I guess,to realize that you're avoidant,
sometimes Because in the past Iwas always avoidant, because,
like in the past, like I wasalways avoidant, but less
avoidant than the other person,and so I didn't really realize
how avoidant I was, I think,until this relationship.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Oh, that is so true.
I didn't even know that for meit would have been the other way
.
Like I didn't understand that Ihad a disorganized attachment.
I would have thought I was justplain avoidant until I started
dating an avoidant.
And then I turned hella anxiousand I became someone.
I never understood even whothat girl was.
Sometimes.
I sometimes still am shocked bythat person of me.
So it's interesting what happenswhen you get into these
(28:54):
different relationships, whichis also why it's important
sometimes to go get into newrelationships, go learn who you
are with other people.
In fact, even if I don'tpersonally attribute or
subscribe to soulmates or twinflames or any of that kind of
stuff, I personally believe thatthere's tons of people out
there and we can make it workwith honestly anyone Like if you
just you know, if you figure itout.
(29:15):
That being said, if you dobelieve in this concept of a
soulmate or like this is yourperson or like it's going to
really work.
Sometimes it takes moving on,getting in a new relationship
and then going back to theperson.
So this is kind of a datingidea that's out there, but you
don't want your ex to be yourrebound.
(29:35):
Does that make sense, yeah.
So like, if you really want tomake it work with him, go out
there, learn who you are, tryother people figure this part of
you out and then see, oh, he'sthe one I want.
This is it Like I know, this iswho I want.
And then maybe you go back andmaybe you missed your time and I
don't know.
And you know, life happens andthere's cute movies out there
(29:56):
about that kind of stuff.
You know where, like peoplekeep missing their timeframes
and things.
But who knows, maybe you, youget in enough relationships by
the time the both of you are 60,you are meant to be together
and that's it.
But imagine you never livedyour life that entire time you
were waiting for him.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Right, yeah.
Yeah, I struggle sometimes withif I believe in that or not.
You know that I kind of go backand forth, but I do think I
believe in it enough that itmakes me struggle, for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I agree, I'm kind of the same way.
If we get into like a slightlyphilosophical conversation here,
as you know, we start kind ofwrapping up is I don't know what
I believe in sometimes when itcomes to soulmates or even like
past lives or you know all ofthat kind of stuff Like.
But all I know, all I know, isa connection is happening, like
a true attachment bond ishappening.
(30:44):
I will say this 10 times over.
You know I talk about my ex alot but, like I say it because I
need people to understand thatjust because I'm happily married
now and I'm very secure and I'mliving the best life I've ever
been and I'm the happiest I'veever been, that does not mean
that my soul, my heart, my bodysometimes does not just get
drawn back to that man.
(31:05):
Yeah, it is wild and I cannotexplain it.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, maybethat means when we're both 70,
we're going to find each otheragain and then we'll die in our
deathbeds together.
I don't know, maybe it means wewere together in a previous
life and that's that connectionthat's happening.
But all I know and this iswhere I finally got to it all I
(31:26):
know is if in the moment, whileI'm waiting to figure this out,
I'm not living my life.
Then what am I doing?
And it might also mean I missmy opportunity to be with him
again, if I want to, later on.
Now, the difference here is Ithink I do have a different
mindset, where I also know, whenI look at him in a logical,
(31:47):
secure way, I'm not attracted tohim.
I'm attracted to somethingabout him.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it was the fact that Ijust got to live a free life
with him when I was dating himand I got to take time off of
being a mother, and maybe that'sreally what I'm missing half
the time when I fantasize abouthim.
I don't know what it is, and Ialso have this beautiful
(32:08):
relationship right now.
So if anyone's talking, they'relike how the fuck can you be
talking about this ex whenyou're married, your poor
husband that's so unfair to him,blah, blah, blah.
And I'd be like no, no, heknows all of this shit, because
I'm in a secure relationshipwhere I can tell him what I'm
feeling and what I'munderstanding.
And hey, going back to ouroriginal conversation, he
doesn't understand anything thatI'm talking about.
(32:30):
He doesn't know this feelingthat I feel, but he's willing to
listen and understand and talkto me about it and he's secure
enough to know I would never doanything about it.
And it doesn't mean I don'tlove him deeply with all of my
heart just because I have theserandom thoughts every once in a
while.
That is how we take our bigfeelings and we turn them into
(32:51):
secure relationships.
Because I remember back in theday, if I would have had
limerence or attraction tosomeone, I would have felt like
I'm cheating on my husband.
I would have felt shame, Iwould have felt guilt.
Then I'd push my husband awaybecause I'd feel bad about it.
Then our conversations would gobad, our communication would go
down, I'd start getting disdainand contempt in there.
And this is what startedhappening.
Because I get crushes a lot.
(33:14):
I don't know what that is.
I don't know if I'm just likesome people are hypersexual, I'm
like hyper crushable.
I don't know what it is, butit's just like some hot guy
walks into my class and I'm like, oh yeah, that's my new crush
for the month.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I have this like intense limerence at all times,
see, and for me it's theopposite, like I never I mean I
don't say never, but it's rarefor me to like someone.
So then, when I do when you doit feels that much more
important, big deal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
And so I think the key here for both of us, for
anyone listening Don't shamethat part of you, follow it and
explore it.
And so, yeah, if you want to gotalk to him again, you know,
and I think I've told you thisbefore go talk to him again,
make it work, move where youneed to move, fight for him.
If you want to fight for him,tell him you love him.
I don't care what it is, put itall out on the line.
(34:01):
Open up your heart, getrejected, fall flat on your face
and then get back up and seewhat we can do next.
But sometimes that's what ittakes.
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, all right.
Is this a good place to startwrapping up for today?
It is All right.
Such good questions.
Thank you so much, cheryl, forasking these questions.
(34:22):
I think we hit on a lot ofreally tough and deep
conversations and I don't eventhink I think we hit on a lot of
really tough and deepconversations and I don't even
think we fully explored thedepth of a lot of these.
So come back into the group atany time, ask these questions,
because I think, after we'vetalked about this, what's going
to happen is your mind is goingto open up in other places.
Now is what I'm hoping.
So once that happens andanother question pops up, come
(34:44):
ask in the group.
You know what I mean.
Like that's the best part.
Like wait, jen, hold on.
Something else just opened up.
Like what about this, whatabout this?
And the more we keep exploringthat, the better.
I'm sure it will.
Yeah, and thank you again somuch for coming on and being
vulnerable.
And if anyone right now islistening to this and you want
to come on and do this, do youjust want to pick my brain on a
podcast?
(35:04):
You just want to be like I justdon't understand what anxious
attachment is.
Why does this keep happeningand why does my brain work this
way?
Because I keep reading about itbut nothing makes any sense.
Or maybe Cheryl's story madeyou realize you know you have a
soulmate or you have a twinflame and you want to figure out
what to do about that and youjust want more help.
Come on the podcast.
(35:24):
You can get help with that.
You can come and join us at anytime.
Just scroll on down to the shownotes, click on the link to
apply for a podcast coachingcall and I would love to have
you on.
And again, cheryl, thank you somuch.
Is there anything else, anyother questions or anything you
want to say before we finish up?
Not that I can think of now,but I'm sure I will think of
some.
All right.
Well, when you think of them,let me know and I will talk with
(35:46):
you all next week.
Take care, as we wrap uptoday's conversation, always
remember that healing is ajourney, not a destination, and
it is an honor to be a part ofyour healing journey.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we covered today, be
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
(36:06):
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode
right there.
And please remember to rate,review and subscribe if you
enjoyed today's podcast.
Your feedback means the worldto us and helps others discover
our podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
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