Ever feel like no matter how calm you stay, certain people still push every button you have?
In this episode, I’m joined by the brilliant co-authors of Beyond Difficult, Dr. Jessie Stern and Rachel Samson. Together, we unpack why some people feel so hard to deal with and what’s actually going on under the surface of their behavior. From the science of attachment and temperament to the misunderstood truth about highly sensitive people, we explore practical ways to stay regulated, set boundaries, and communicate without losing your mind (or your compassion). Whether it’s your partner, a parent, or that one coworker... this episode will help you navigate difficult dynamics without making yourself the villain or the victim.
You might want to listen if:
- You feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in relationships
- You’ve been told you’re “too sensitive” (or wondered if it’s true)
- You struggle to stay calm around certain people, no matter how hard you try
- You want to stop personalizing difficult behavior but still hold boundaries
- You’re craving research-backed tools for managing conflict with more compassion
About Our Guests:
Dr. Jessie Stern
- Website: drjessiestern.com
- Instagram: @drjessiestern
- X (Twitter): @jessAstern
Rachel Samson
- Website: www.rachelsamson.co
- Instagram: @australianpsychologist
FIND OUT MORE!
- Apply for FREE Coaching with Jenn
- Join the DANCE CIRCLE - Get updates on Jenn's debut book "Dance of Attachment"
- Join our FREE Community! Speak Honest Facebook Group 🧡
- Become a Relationship Reboot Member and access all you need to become secure.
- Schedule your Free 30 min Attachment Assessment with Jenn Today!
- Watch Jenn on the 🔴 TEDx Stage!
- Download your free Workbook: Dance of Attachment
- Visit www.speak-honest.com to learn more
- Follow Jenn on Instagram: @speak_honest
- Like the episode? Please write a review, your words help others find us!
DISCLAIMER: Speak Honest podcast content is informational, not professional or medical advice. Jenn is an ICF relationship coach, not a licensed therapist. Consult health ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone and welcome backto another episode of Speak
Honest.
I am Jen Noble, your go-torelationship coach, and on
today's episode I am so excitedI am going to be joined by two
(00:49):
brilliant minds behind one of mynew favorite books called
Beyond Difficult, anattachment-based guide to
dealing with challenging people.
And, as you can tell probablyby the title and if you know me
by now, you can imagine why Ilove this book already.
We've got attachment, we've gotconflict.
These are pretty much my twofavorite things in the whole
world and I wanted to be able toread this.
I'm so excited to have themboth on.
(01:10):
I want more of this.
This book was written by thewonderful Dr Jesse Stern and
Rachel Sampson and I cannot waitto dive into this with both of
these amazing women and reallyget to the heart of how to deal
with difficult people.
And now I know right now, allof us know at least one or two
difficult people in our lives.
If you're listening right now,I bet you someone just popped up
(01:32):
in your mind when you heardthat idea, so keep them in mind
while you're listening to ourconversation.
Now, jessie and Rachel, welcometo the show.
How are you both doing today?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Great Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Oh, you're so welcome .
I'm so happy you're here.
Why don't you guys share alittle bit with our listeners, a
little bit about yourself, thework you do and what led you to
co-write Beyond Difficult?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Let's start with Jessie, Thanks so much for
having us, jen.
I'm Jessie Stern, I'm anassistant professor of
psychological science at PomonaCollege and I'm an attachment
researcher.
So that's been my bread andbutter for the past 10 years and
I really enjoy interviewingparents and kids about their
experiences.
But I also do a lot of work onadult attachment as well, and I
(02:16):
met Rachel actually at anattachment training in Minnesota
which we can talk about moreand we hit it off immediately
and stayed friends ever sincethen.
So that was kind of thebeginnings of a friendship that
then turned into a co-authorship.
So I kind of brought theresearch science-y nerd lens to
the book and Rachel brought theclinical practical experience,
(02:40):
which I'll let her say moreabout.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
That sounds fantastic and so much fun.
Now, yes, please, Rachel, sharea little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So I'm Rachel Sampson .
I'm an Australian-basedclinical psychologist and I work
from an attachment lens withcouples, parents and kids and
individuals, using an approachcalled schema therapy, which is
looking at people's childhoodexperiences and how that's
shaped the people that theybecome, and I'm also really
(03:08):
fascinated in the intersectionof temperament and attachment
and how that shapes ourpersonality and the people that
we ultimately become.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
This is so great.
I think everyone right now isunderstanding why I have both of
you on here, because this is mybread and butter.
This is what I love doing.
Now, one of the things that Ireally loved about your book
Beyond Difficult, great, greatterm as well.
Talk to me a little bit wherethat title came from and what
were you really thinking aboutas you were writing this book?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
I think the title to me has two meanings.
The first is when you knowsomebody who you think is beyond
difficult in your life and Ithink most of us have had at
least one relationship that fitsthe bill it doesn't necessarily
have to be that the person ishugely difficult themselves, but
it could just be the nature ofthe interaction that you happen
to have with them.
(03:55):
So there are people who Iconsider to be extremely
difficult in my own life that mypartner has no problem with,
and vice versa.
So there's a bit of aninteraction between what we're
bringing to a relationship andwhat the other person brings.
But the second meaning of thetitle, which hopefully readers
will discover when they get intothe book, is it's usually not
(04:17):
the case that somebody isintentionally trying to make our
life difficult, right?
Usually there is somethinggoing on beyond what's there on
the surface, and if we can diginto that a little bit, have a
greater understanding of what'sgoing on underneath that surface
, we can do a better job ofaddressing underlying issues.
So going beyond difficult alsomeans not just labeling this
(04:38):
person as being a terribleperson, but understanding where
the behavior is coming from andaddressing what's at the root of
it.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I love that you brought this up, because, as I
was reading your book, one ofthe things that I really noticed
was it didn't feel blameythat's a very science word right
Blamey.
As I was reading it, and thisis something I really try to
teach my clients as well, whichis we're not healing our
relationships by making him thebad guy, right, we're not doing
this kind of work over here, andso yours felt really different.
(05:05):
So can you talk to me aboutyour decision to focus on
compassion and science overlabels, rachel?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I think it's because it's what works right.
Like you said, you know you'renot going to heal your
relationship by blaming theother person, and in my work
clinically, I find that so muchtransformation can come just
from people understanding what'sunderneath someone's behavior.
And so, as I said, I do a lot ofwork with parents around
(05:34):
difficulties with their children, and it's the same principle
whether it's working withparents or whether it's working
with couples or adults trying tounderstand their parents and
the way that they were when theywere growing up.
Understanding what's going onunderneath the behavior is
incredibly helpful because ifwe've been interpreting it as
something about us or that it'spersonal that the person is just
(05:58):
treating us that way andsometimes that is the case, you
know, there are times wheresomeone will be very charming
with everybody except, forexample, a partner.
But generally speaking, the waythat someone behaves is telling
us something about what's goingon for them, whether it's their
personality or whether it'sfeeling threatened in a
situation or some unmet needthey have, and so just changing
(06:21):
that lens can change the meaningthat someone is making of
another person's behavior, andthat in itself can bring relief.
So that's part of why that's soimportant for us to look at
that in the book, and then ontop of that there are skills and
strategies that we might learnto then navigate that
relationship.
But that understanding andcompassion piece is so important
(06:44):
.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Such a good point.
You bring up in the book thatdifficult behavior is
communication.
Right, it's a way tocommunicate to someone.
This difficult behavior.
It's not your character.
Can you speak more on that?
Speaker 3 (07:03):
I think it's easiest to think about this with a
little kid, right?
No little child wants to throwa tantrum.
No kid gets pleasure out ofbehaving badly.
There's usually an unmet needthat they're trying to
communicate and they havelimited ability to do so.
And I think a lot of adultdifficult behavior is kind of
like an adult version of atwo-year-old's tantrum.
It's communicating an unmetneed or a feeling of threat or
(07:25):
some emotion that's not able tobe expressed in a mature way and
so it's being acted out in waysthat annoy the heck out of us.
But ultimately is stillcommunication.
And if we can read between thelines of what is this behavior
communicating?
As Rachel said, it's often notpersonal, it's not about us.
It's communicating somethingabout that person, their
emotional state.
And what's often not personal,it's not about us.
It's communicating somethingabout that person, their
(07:46):
emotional state and what's goingon psychologically.
Oftentimes there's more to adifficult situation than meets
the eye.
So a person could be goingthrough a loss or a difficult
home environment and thenbringing that to work with them
or bringing that into a romanticpartnership.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, and it's not always an explicit or
intentional act of communication.
You know, when we say behavioris always communication, it's
not like the person isindirectly trying to send a
message all the time, but we cantranslate that into
communication.
So it might be that someone,whether it's a child or an adult
(08:25):
throwing a tantrum, is feelingangry or feeling unheard.
So we could translate theirbehavior to I'm feeling scared
or I'm feeling angry or I'mfeeling unheard.
So I think that's important.
Just to note that it's notalways an indirect way of trying
to communicate something.
It's that it's telling ussomething about what's going on
(08:48):
for the person and so in thatway, it's communication.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I love that it's trying to tell us something
which, as I was hearing the bothof you talk, I was thinking of
like the toddler throwing atemper tantrum and I have
definitely had my own tempertantrums in my day.
If not, you know, probablymaybe I'll have one this weekend
.
We'll see what happens and whata beautiful way to have
self-compassion for yourself aswell is to realize you are
trying to communicate somethingto someone else as well.
If you blow up, if you startcrying because your husband
(09:13):
comes home and he doesn't kissyou and he goes straight to his
office and all of a sudden itmakes your stomach drop and it
starts to make you cry, thatdoesn't mean there's anything
wrong with you.
It just means your body'strying to communicate something.
Which brings me to kind of ournext point, which in my world,
like in my pre-world, as I say,I thought of myself as just this
way too sensitive of a person.
(09:34):
Like every tiny thing, likeeveryone's eyes, looked at me
slightly different, thathypervigilance that comes, you
know, with a disorganizedattachment.
But something that I noticed inyour book that I really want to
talk about is your section onhighly sensitive people.
I think this is something thatdoesn't get talked enough about,
and the research behind whatyou were talking about was
(09:54):
finally, I want to just shovethis part into people's faces
and be like this is not woo-woo.
Highly sensitive people is areal thing.
So can I just get you guys totalk me through just some of
that stuff in your book a littlebit?
What's your favorite parts ofthat?
What would you really wantsomeone to understand?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think it's really important to always hold in mind
that there's so much variationin temperament.
We think of temperament withkids sometimes, although I think
Westernized societies maybestill aren't so great at always
thinking about children'stemperament and factoring that
into parenting or understandingkids' behavior.
But we are all so different andyou know, we're more familiar
(10:31):
perhaps with extroversion andintroversion.
But there is another dimensionof temperament which is
sensitivity, and we are allsensitive more or less.
So this is a dimension ofeveryone's temperament.
Some of us are higher onsensitivity and some of us are
less sensitive.
And people who are highlysensitive feel things more
(10:52):
strongly, are more impacted bythe world around them, tend to
think about things more deeplyand that may make them prone to
worry.
People will often label thatoverthinking, which we'll come
to, because I think there's nostandard.
It's just that people think moredeeply than others, and there's
also a tendency foroverstimulation, because someone
who is high on sensitivity istaking in so much more input
(11:17):
from the environment.
So this has a huge bearing onrelationships because it is the
way someone is wired, it's theway someone experiences the
world, and if you've got someonewho is low on sensitivity and
someone who is high onsensitivity, you're going to be
reacting very differently tosituations around you and, as
(11:38):
you know Jessie mentionedearlier someone may not be
bothered at all by somethinghappening in the environment or
in a relationship, and the otherperson if it's a couple, the
other partner might be hugelyimpacted by that.
And so if we don't understandtemperament and how we're all
wired really differently, itcould be easy to just dismiss a
highly sensitive person'sexperience and say, oh, you're
(12:01):
too sensitive or you'reoverreacting or you're
overthinking.
But it's actually a very validway of being in the world and,
as you said, this is based inscience.
There's a whole lot of humanresearch, and non-human animal
research as well, that showsthis is an aspect of temperament
that is present in over 100different species of animals.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Oh, wow, that's amazing.
I wish I could remember theexact percentage, but I feel
like I remember something about30%, is it?
30% of us are highly sensitive.
Is that what that was?
Yeah, wow, that blew my mindwhen I realized that and I love
how you're talking about, howyou're not too much, you're not
too sensitive, and you're sayingthose words and I could feel it
in my body and I was like, ohno, each one's like a little
(12:43):
like trigger, like hitting me,cause that was my whole life.
I'm such a sensitive person and, as I'm hearing you talk, I
also think the other personisn't insensitive just because
they don't have the same bigreaction as you do.
You know something's happeningand you know a lot of us know
right now, right, the world is,it's a little bit complicated
right now.
It's a lot.
If someone else isn't asaffected as you are, they're not
(13:05):
insensitive and you're not toosensitive.
We both just have differenttemperaments.
What a beautiful, beautifulthing.
Would you like to speak on thisas well, jessie?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I'll just add that being sensitive, as Rachel said,
doesn't have a value judgmentand it really depends on the
environment that we happen to bein.
So for a highly sensitiveperson in a supportive
environment, whether that meansyou have really nurturing
parents or you have a securerelationship with your romantic
partner or you're in an awesomeworkplace where you get great
(13:33):
support, you're more likely tothrive over and above less
sensitive peers.
But similarly, if you're ahighly sensitive person in a
negative environment, whetherthat means you're exposed to
childhood abuse or neglect oryou're in a school environment,
maybe that just feelsoverstimulating and like it's
too much.
Or if you've experienced somesort of adversity as an adult or
(13:57):
you're reading the news even,you're more likely to be
impacted for the worse.
So it really does depend on thecontext that you're in, and our
temperament means that we'resensitive for better and for
worse.
That's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Let me ask you guys this I'm just thinking off the
cuff Did you find any linksbetween hypersensitivity, or
highly sensitive people, andattachment wounds or attachment
styles in that regards?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, so there is a framework called differential
susceptibility, which is youknow, big term, but it basically
means that we are impacteddifferently by our environment,
and sensitivity is a marker ofthis heightened susceptibility.
And so what the research showsis that, for children who are
(14:41):
highly sensitive, they are morestrongly impacted by parenting,
for better and for worse.
And so, as Jessie said, thereis also this bright side to
sensitivity, where it's not justthat being sensitive means
you're more vulnerable to stressand difficulty.
You're also much more able totake in, support and nurture.
(15:03):
So what the research shows isthat children who are in
difficult environments, who aremore sensitive, are more likely
to be impacted and go on todevelop things like anxiety and
depression and we might look atattachment wounds as being part
of that and also are much morelikely to function well and
(15:25):
optimally, even above and beyondwhat someone less sensitive can
function at, if they have thosebeautiful supportive, nurturing
childhood experiences.
So there is that interplay withattachment wounds, in that
highly sensitive children aremuch more vulnerable and
susceptible to the impact ofparenting.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
I'm hearing you say that if we can give our children
, or even ourselves, anenvironment that allows for our
sensitivity, we can actuallyreally thrive and grow from that
.
Is that right?
Yeah, wow, do you have anythingto share on this as well,
jessie?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Well, just on the hopeful side because I think
it's okay to share.
Both Rachel and I identify ashighly sensitive too.
Sames girls sames.
If you're listening to this andhave a little oh shit moment, I
just want you to know you'renot alone.
And one of the really hopefulthings about high sensitivity is
actually, if you can get goodquality intervention and support
(16:21):
, you're more likely to get morebang for your buck.
So, in other words, if youplace a highly sensitive child
in an intervention that supportsthe parent, they're much more
likely to develop a secureattachment than a less sensitive
kid, because now you've alteredthe environment and they're
more sensitive to that change.
So you actually see greaterimpact of that intervention for
(16:46):
the better.
And I think similarly forhighly sensitive adults.
If you're able to get the kindof support you need, whether
that's through therapy orcoaching or having an awesome
group of friends, you're morelikely to benefit from those
positive relationships too.
So if you're hearing this andfeeling like I'm a highly
sensitive person, what do I dowith this?
Just surround yourself with thebest possible environment.
(17:08):
I think would be step one.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I love that, because that was going to be.
One of my next questions washow can we really support a
highly sensitive person orourselves when this kind of over
stimulation or over sensitivitystarts showing up in our
relationships?
Any ideas?
I?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
think there is things you can do to prevent
overstimulation and overwhelm.
So anticipating what is going tobe hard for you or for a
partner is really useful.
So I'll talk a lot about thatin the clinic with parents, with
couples, with individuals, thatif you know that certain social
(17:43):
situations or relationshipexperiences are going to be a
lot for you, then you mightthink about how you can best
take care of yourself in advanceof that, but then also how
you're going to care foryourself after.
So I have clients I work withwho will schedule breaks or
schedule downtime in theirsocial calendar so that you know
(18:05):
when they know that there'sfamily events where maybe
there's tricky dynamics, thatthen maybe they have a day off
after that.
If they're going to be spendingtime with a friend that maybe
they love, but it's a big thingand it takes a lot of spoons or
a lot of emotional energy, thenmaybe it's taking care of
(18:25):
yourself after that or maybeit's capping how much time you
spend with certain people.
So I think it's just reallythinking about the impact of
certain situations and thenplanning for that, both before
and after.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Thank you for sharing that, because I'm thinking
about a situation in my own life.
In fact, these podcasts when Ido these interviews, they take a
lot out of me.
In the beginning of this work,like a year and a half ago when
I started this, I would justschedule clients and coaching
calls and group coaching andthen a podcast and then going
with my kid to somewhere.
If I couldn't handle it all, Iwould think I failed.
(18:59):
I would think I can't cut it,and what I started learning was
I need to kind of schedule in.
Like I didn't really have muchto do before this and I'm not
going to have any.
I'm going to go on my couchafter this and go like binge
watch, catch up on some realityTV or something, and that's how
I'm scheduling myself in now andI don't negotiate on that
anymore.
So it used to be.
Oh yeah, I don't have anythingin my calendar, but I love what
(19:21):
you said and so I really want tomake sure my listeners are
hearing that this is our time.
Like this is.
If somebody says, hey, are youbusy?
And you're busy, is you know,binge watching big brother with
a packet of crisps, I don't care.
Like that's your time and stickwith it.
Is that kind of what I'mhearing you say?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then there's a lot oftechniques and supports and
ideas in the book as well aroundself-regulation.
So if you do experience stressor you feel like you've been
triggered by a situation, thenthere's also things that you can
learn to do to help regulate,and that will be so individual
(19:59):
for each person.
So we've included a lot ofideas in the book, but we really
recommend people experimentwith what works.
So, for me, deep tissue massageis one of the things that is
just the best reset for me andreally helps me settle after you
know it's been really busy orthere's been stressful things
(20:21):
happening.
For other people it's yoga, orit might be breathing techniques
or getting out in nature, whichI know is something Jesse and I
both love doing.
But when we do reachoverstimulation or you are
emotionally impacted bysomething, then it's about
knowing what really works foryou to help settle your nervous
system and implementing that and, rather than seeing it as a
(20:44):
weakness or something you needto push through, it's really
about honoring that and caringfor your nervous system and your
body and your mind in whateverways work for you as an
individual.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It's such a good point because if we're sensitive
and we're bringing so much in,it's almost like our filter is
just a little like I don't knowthe way I'm picturing it right
now is almost like our filterhas bigger holes or something,
so like we get so much coming atus.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, that must be worth it.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, so it's like it's coming at you so much, so
it's okay to take more breaksthan other people.
Other people could kind of like, go along, it's over here in
the tech world.
So I live in the Bay area,right, so we call this work fast
, break shit, right.
So you just go, go, go, go go,and then you just break things
and you take a break, andthere's some people that just do
steady work forever, and thenthere's some people that go, go,
(21:27):
go, go go, and then they haveto break and then go, go, go,
and either way it is, there's noright or wrong.
That's right.
So, yeah, how about you, jessie?
Do you have any personalexperiences or stories around
this for yourself that you do?
Oh, yeah plenty.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I mean, I think one way to think about it is
everybody has their kind ofoptimal level of stimulation and
we have some control althoughnot complete control about
dialing that up and down withthe environments that we choose.
So I know for myself, especiallyas a college student back in
the day this is now a few yearsago my social life was such that
(22:02):
I really had to be picky abouthow I wanted to engage with
people, because I knew that thebig, loud party thing was
over-simulating for my nervoussystem and that was kind of the
default for hanging out withcertain friends was oh, do you
want to go to this big party?
And I knew that that was goingto be exhausting and sometimes I
(22:23):
would push myself to go just toget out of my comfort zone.
But if I really wanted to getto know somebody and if I wanted
to feel most myself and most atease, I would invite the person
to coffee or to lunch orsomething where we could have a
less stimulating environment andI could talk one-on-one and
really be centered and groundedin the highly sensitive person
(22:43):
that I am.
So that's just one example ofcurating a social environment
that really works for you andwhere you can have authentic
connection as a sensitive person.
But everybody's a littledifferent.
So we interview a young mannamed Jaden in the book who,
when he's overstimulated in asimilar type of environment,
could often be a difficultperson.
And it's not until he sort ofrecognizes this about himself
(23:06):
that he's able to kind of choosethe social situations he most
wants to be in so that he canshow up as his best possible
self.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I love that.
What I hear so much in whatboth of you are talking about is
so much proactivity, just somuch getting to know yourself
being okay with showing up forthat.
And I know that comes withhaving a bit more of a secure
attachment stance.
I understand that that's hardwhen we're when we are anxiously
attached and we're sopreoccupied with everyone else's
opinions about us, it's hard tosay no, I don't want to go to a
loud club, come have coffeewith me.
But you can kind of see thispendulation between the two
(23:37):
things of kind of needing toheal your attachment slightly,
and then that kind of allows youto have more self-compassion
for your highly sensitive selfor any way in which you are,
whether it be this is what youneed or what you don't want.
I love that so much.
Thank you so much for havingthis conversation with me.
I want to kind of switch gearsjust slightly, because I want to
know a little bit more aboutthe different worlds that you
both come from.
I know that one of you is aresearcher.
(23:59):
I believe that's you, jesse,correct?
Yes, okay, yes, that's right,because that's my jam right now
and I was like I want to knowall the stuff you do.
And then, rachel, you have aclinical practice.
Is that correct?
So what was it like for theboth of you, blending your
perspectives together, to writethis Like did you find you know?
Like, oh no, jesse thoughtRachel was difficult, or
Rachel's not, just like, how doyou even handle that together?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
as you're writing, you're like no, I want this
story in the book.
No, I want that story in thebook.
Just tell me a little bit aboutit.
Well, I'll start and just sayit was so much fun.
At least for me it was very fun.
I don't want to speak onRachel's behalf, but before we
were co-authors we were friendsfirst and I think that's an
important foundation Having agood relationship before you
(24:41):
embark on something like havinga book baby together.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It's so personal a book so I'm like, yeah, it must
be so, it's like co-parenting,but for your book, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
It really is, and I think one of the benefits of
working on a collaboration withRachel is we really did bring
different perspectives, butwe're both really grounded in
the same basic lens on the world.
So I think we both filter ourexperience through the lens of
attachment and bring it to thework that we do, even though the
(25:16):
work we do is different.
So from my point of view as aresearcher, I'm really
interested in what the scienceshows about what predicts secure
attachment.
How can we change attachmentstyles over time so that, even
as an adult, if you're grapplingwith anxious attachment or
disorganized attachment, thatyou can slowly shift toward a
more secure pattern?
(25:36):
So what does the scienceactually say about the best
techniques to do that?
But when it comes toimplementing it in practice,
that's where I really defer toRachel, because it's one thing
for me to understand this intheory and have read a bunch of
papers about it, but what Rachelis bringing is more the
practical tools to then workwith somebody to implement it in
(25:56):
the real world.
So that was my experience wasthat it was a really nice
complementarity, but that wekind of started with a
foundation of both friendshipand seeing the world through
this really helpful lens.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's so, so great.
And did you guys write it fromlike opposite ends of the world,
like Resistal was just kind ofdone online.
Oh, that's just so exciting,like don't you just love
technology?
And especially like look at thethree of us being able to talk.
This is great.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, it's wonderful in that way.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, and how about yourself, rachel?
What did you feel like beingable to co-write this book, like
being able to have yourclinical practice?
Like you said, you have thepractical way over here.
So what did you bring to thebook and how did you feel Jessie
brought to it?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I think, as Jessie said, she's got her finger on
the pulse with current researchand has been involved in doing
some of the amazing attachmentresearch and then as clinicians
we are translating that scienceinto something that's accessible
for you know, a lay person whodoesn't have a science
(26:52):
background to understand.
So there's an educationcomponent to therapy and then
also, when you're are usingattachment-based interventions,
you're using that scienceclinically in the way that
you're offering therapy toclients and families.
So Jesse had the science andthe research and really knows
(27:14):
the field.
So if there was new research orif there was a particular study
that supported something thatwe were talking about in the
book, then Jessie would likelyknow what that was and could
bring that.
So I felt very lucky that wewere working together and then I
was able to talk to what thattranslates like in the therapy
(27:35):
room what the interventions dofor people, how people respond,
stories of people'stransformations when they have
been engaged inattachment-focused therapy, and
just people's stories, which Ithink we both bring to the book.
We've got our own personalstories.
Jessie works with students inher teaching role, so you know
(27:55):
she's you know hearing a lot ofstories from students and
interviewees in research andthen as a clinician over years.
You know you have hundreds andthousands of stories from
different people.
So I think it complemented ourexperience, complemented each
other to write the book.
We've got sort of the scienceend and then the therapy, the
(28:16):
practical end and bringing thattogether and, as Jessie said, we
were friends first.
So the actual process ofwriting the book for me was just
seamless.
It really was.
You know, often people haveasked you know, did you have to
work through some of the things?
Speaker 3 (28:33):
that you wrote about.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You know difficult interactions, and I wish we had
some juicy stories to share, butactually we don't.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Dang it.
You're too secure.
This is no fun anymore.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Actually the time zone thing worked really well
for us, because I I would workon a draft during my normal
hours and then send it to rachelwhen I was about to go to sleep
, and she would then pick it upand do a bunch with it while I
was sleeping.
So even that was like you wouldthink being on the opposite side
of the world would be difficult.
I think it's really only beenthat way in the sense that we
(29:09):
can't celebrate in persontogether, but the actual writing
was actually really fun.
To then pass the baton and feellike I can't work on this
anymore Rachel's going to take afresh look at it while she's
nice and awake and I can just goto sleep.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That part just made me yearn for that.
So I'm currently writing mybook right now and I'm working
with Lucky Book Publishing andit feels kind of alone sometimes
.
It feels that lonely, thatfeeling of I'm trying to write
it and I was like somebody justtell me if I'm on the right
track.
So I love that you have thatkind of co-collaborative space
between the two of you to beable to write a book together.
(29:44):
I want to pull back thecurtains a little bit.
What was that like?
Were you guys just chatting onZoom or Skype?
One day or something, you'relike we should write a book?
Yeah, we totally should.
And then you're like, why don'twe?
How long ago was this.
When did you guys decide towrite this amazing book?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Well, when we met in Minnesota, which was 2018, as
Jessie mentioned earlier, wewere there for training in the
strange situation protocol,which, for anyone who hasn't
heard you will know about that,jen, I'm sure is looking at the
attachment between infants andparents, and so you can observe
(30:22):
the way that infants areinteracting with their parents
and assess whether theirattachment is likely to be
secure or insecure, and so wewere there learning how to
interpret the videos from thestrange situation, how to
classify attachments.
so it was 10 intensive days oftraining wow and so we talked
(30:42):
about all kinds of things duringthe 10 days.
You know our own attachmentexperiences, the countries that
we came from, our interest,meditation, and so we really
connected and liked one anotherright away, and so we stayed in
touch when I came back toAustralia and Jessie went back
to where she was from, and thenwe just continued to talk about
(31:06):
all the things that we wereinterested in.
And I had this idea that Iwould like to write a parenting
book, and so I asked Jessie ifshe would be interested in
writing that with me, and so westarted putting our ideas
together over time and then westarted writing for Psychology
Today.
So we did some blog posts onattachment and all the things
that we were both reallypassionate about.
(31:27):
And then I at some point got anemail from a publisher in
Australia who asked if I wouldconsider writing a book, if I
had considered writing a bookfor them, and I said, well,
actually, yes, I have been, youknow thinking of writing a book.
And so they were really wantingit to be general, not just
(31:48):
parents but adults, and so a lotof the ideas that we had been
writing about and had thought toput in a parenting book, we
then put into a book that wasfor anyone adults and that's
where Beyond Difficult was born.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Thank you for sharing that.
I love knowing the insideworkings of how things work, and
what I think is really coolabout this book is because it's
a book about attachment stylesas well right, A book about what
is it like to attach in arelationship, and it's a very
unique thing.
I've read almost everyattachment book I can get my
hands on out there, and thisreally cool, unique part is that
the two of you are workingtogether to do this and so you
kind of see this bond formingand happening and it just brings
(32:26):
a level to this book that Idon't think is like, unlike any
other attachment book out therewhich is a lot of just like
fluff or do this or just date asecure man that'll heal you.
You know stupid shit like thatand you know shade totally
thrown, I admit it and so likethis is what I love, so I just I
(32:47):
highly recommend anyone outthere right now listening and
you're like, okay, what?
kind of book could I get?
Is it science?
Yeah, but like it's alsopractical and that's what's
really great about it.
So if you listen to my show andyou like really love this the
way I dig into science and theway I dig into research and how
I'm not just looking at thingsfrom kind of this psych pop,
college-y kind of thing overhere and I'm really looking at
like no, this is what this shows.
Like you cannot heal yourattachment style in 90 days.
(33:08):
I don't care what a courseonline tells you, it takes one
to four years research.
Like that is what this book is.
So if you want to dive into ita little bit more, like if you
really want to dive into yourattachment style, if you want to
understand highly sensitivepeople more, if you want to
understand that you are notbroken, that it is not your
fault, that you are allowed totake up space and be whoever you
are, then I highly, highlyrecommend this book.
(33:28):
So, as we're wrapping up today,ladies, I want to just kind of
get really practical.
As the listeners have comealong on this journey with us,
what is something right now thatthey could try today that could
help them with a difficultperson?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
I think my number one would be to work on emotion
regulation within yourself.
That's the first thing that'swithin your control and
regardless of your attachmenthistory, you probably know what
is effective for you in helpingcalm down from a strong emotion.
So if the difficult person inyour life is bringing up a lot
(34:03):
of intense anger, you mightexperiment first with deep
breathing.
I know for me that's my go-towhen I'm feeling kind of
overwhelmed with rage and alsostaying grounded in your body.
So if you notice yourself kindof spinning out into a lot of
thoughts and rumination, comingback to the breath and coming
(34:24):
back to feeling your feet on theground is a first step, at
least for me.
And oftentimes before I'm ableto fully engage with somebody
who's making me crazy, I need totake a walk around the block.
So physical movement hasactually been shown to help with
depression, anxiety in themoment, emotion regulation,
(34:45):
dissociation, all sorts of greatthings.
In fact, there was a recentmeta-analysis about exercise for
depression that showed thatdance was by far the most
effective, which I just think isfascinating and so interesting.
So dance it out if that's foryou.
But I would say, experimentwith a flexible repertoire of
(35:07):
strategies that can help youregulate emotion.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Oh, that's beautiful.
Can I hear you say that onemore time?
Sorry, that was just so good.
A flexible repertoire ofdifferent ideas Is that what I
heard you say?
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Yeah, just try out different strategies, because it
could be that the one you pullon in a moment, in a particular
moment, is not working for you.
So then, to be able to flexiblyshift into some other strategy.
Okay, I still feel so angry atthis person.
Let me go take a walk and nowcome back with some fresh
perspective.
(35:38):
I think having a couple ofthings in your back pocket to
try when you're dealing with adifficult person is helpful.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Thank you so much for that.
All right, so we have emotionalregulation being flexible
within your regulation.
Have all these ideas andnothing's wrong if one doesn't
work Sometimes we just need tomix it up.
Sometimes and you heard her sayit dance it out.
You guys all know I say thisall the time.
I love it, but could I justlike geek out with you on
research after this, jessie,because this is like I love when
you just pull this out.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
This is great, always , always Jen.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
This is amazing.
All right, rachel, how aboutyou?
Just one kind of practical tipto handle difficult people.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So I come back to that idea that behavior is
communication and, I think,often coming back to basics,
because that often falls awaywhen we're triggered or we're
stressed or we're stuck inconflict with someone.
People will often escalate intheir efforts to be heard if
they're not feeling heard, andso difficult behavior tends to
(36:35):
escalate when the person that weperceive as difficult doesn't
feel heard.
So I would come back to thisidea of deep listening, heard.
So I would come back to thisidea of deep listening.
Slowing everything down andgiving your undivided, full
attention to the other person inthe moment is likely to bring
down intense emotion.
(36:55):
It's likely to preventescalation.
If it's a child, it can helpwith the meltdown or the tantrum
.
So it sounds simple, but it'shard to hold on to when we're
stressed and a lot of problemscan be dealt with later.
You know there's this questionis this an emergency?
You know, do you need to solvethis with your partner right now
(37:16):
?
Do you need to teach your childa skill of anger management
right now?
No, you don't it's, you know.
Unless it's an emergency, thenyou've got time.
So slowing it down, reallylistening, and with that, you
know, really classic counsellingstrategy is saying back to the
other person what you've heardthem say, and that could be as
(37:39):
simple as I get it, you'repissed with me.
Or you know, yeah, I cut thebanana if it's a toddler.
You know I cut the banana andyou pissed with me.
Or you know, yeah, I cut thebanana if it's a toddler.
You know I cut the banana andyou didn't want to cut you know
whatever.
And you can say you know, isthat right?
Is that?
Is that what's bothered you?
And allow the other person theopportunity to correct you.
You know, no, it's not that,it's this.
And keep going until the personfeels hurt.
Often that really settlesthings.
(38:00):
So that's just a great place tocome back to when things are
escalating.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Beautiful.
So we have emotional regulation, deep listening.
Both of those have kind of thisoverall just slow down If we
feel ourself kind of gettingfast and kinetic.
Just come back to your breath,listen intently, and that's
where it's at All.
Right.
Such a beautiful conversation.
Now where can my listeners findyour book right now and connect
with your work?
Let's start with Jesse.
(38:25):
Jesse, share any social mediathat you have, as well as where
the book can be found, sure.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
So the book is on bookshelves in Australia and New
Zealand, but if you're in theStates, like I am, you can order
a paperback copy throughReadings R-E-A-D-I-N-G-S
Readings Books.
It's also available on ebookfor Kindle on Amazon and it
should be coming out onaudiobook any day now through
Audible.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Oh, that's exciting.
That's so great.
And how can people follow youif they want to know more?
Jessie, are you online anywheredoing research as well?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
I am, so you're welcome to follow me at Dr
Jessie Stern on Instagram orJess A Stern on X Twitter.
I still call it Twitter.
Same Rachel is usually more upto date on these things than I
am.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Oh, perfect, I will pivot over to Rachel.
Rachel, where can we follow?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
you learn more.
What is it that you're sharing?
Go ahead.
So I am on Instagram atAustralian Psychologist and
there's a website atrachelsamsonco.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Perfect, All right, everyone.
I really highly recommend goingand get that book.
I will have all of the links inthe show notes as well, just
for you to go ahead and click onand, as well, if you have more
questions about what's going on,come join us in our free
Facebook community.
You go to Speak Honest.
You can just search for it onFacebook.
It's got two little orangehearts so it stands out.
And just keep asking questionslike hey, Jen, you know, Jesse
(39:50):
said this thing here Like tellme more about it.
I'll be like, okay, yeah, let'slike look into the research and
see where this is coming from.
Or hey, I want some help withhow can I actually get to a
place where I'm deep like theCharlie Brown teacher because
I'm pissed off so much.
And that just comes withpractice, that just comes with
compassion, and sometimes itcomes with working with someone
like a coach or a counselor or atherapist or a psychologist,
(40:12):
and it's about finding theperson that works for you.
Well, I just want to say thankyou so much, Rachel and Jesse,
for coming on the show today.
Is there anything else youwould like to say before we wrap
up just now?
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Thank you for having us.
It's been a great conversation,and it's always so nice for
Jessie and I to see each otherface to face as well, so it's
lovely.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
That's okay.
I'm so glad I could bring thisreunion together.
I would love to have you guyscome back on again just to like
shoot some shit and just liketalk about things.
Maybe we find out some moreinformation out there and like
what could we be doing?
Maybe you guys are gonna writea second book.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Come and tell me about it you forget how hard the
first baby was, so you want todo it again.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
That's what they say.
I'm currently in the pregnantstage of my book.
Oh, I can share it with youguys see what you think as well.
That'd be good, but oh, we'dlove that and, as jesse said,
dance it out.
Y'all like this is what it'sall about.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
You just yeah, that movement, it brings it in.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
So thank you all so much.
Have a beautiful evening and Iwill speak with you all next
week.
Take care, as we wrap uptoday's conversation, always
remember that healing is ajourney, not a destination, and
it is an honor to be a part ofyour healing journey.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we cover today, be
(41:31):
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode
right there.
And please remember to rate,review and subscribe if you
enjoyed today's podcast.
Your feedback means the worldto us and helps others discover
our podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone and welcome backto another episode of Speak
Honest.
I am Jen Noble, your go-torelationship coach, and on
today's episode I am so excitedI am going to be joined by two
(00:49):
brilliant minds behind one of mynew favorite books called
Beyond Difficult, anattachment-based guide to
dealing with challenging people.
And, as you can tell probablyby the title and if you know me
by now, you can imagine why Ilove this book already.
We've got attachment, we've gotconflict.
These are pretty much my twofavorite things in the whole
world and I wanted to be able toread this.
I'm so excited to have themboth on.
(01:10):
I want more of this.
This book was written by thewonderful Dr Jesse Stern and
Rachel Sampson and I cannot waitto dive into this with both of
these amazing women and reallyget to the heart of how to deal
with difficult people.
And now I know right now, allof us know at least one or two
difficult people in our lives.
If you're listening right now,I bet you someone just popped up
(01:32):
in your mind when you heardthat idea, so keep them in mind
while you're listening to ourconversation.
Now, jessie and Rachel, welcometo the show.
How are you both doing today?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Great Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Oh, you're so welcome .
I'm so happy you're here.
Why don't you guys share alittle bit with our listeners, a
little bit about yourself, thework you do and what led you to
co-write Beyond Difficult?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Let's start with Jessie, Thanks so much for
having us, jen.
I'm Jessie Stern, I'm anassistant professor of
psychological science at PomonaCollege and I'm an attachment
researcher.
So that's been my bread andbutter for the past 10 years and
I really enjoy interviewingparents and kids about their
experiences.
But I also do a lot of work onadult attachment as well, and I
(02:16):
met Rachel actually at anattachment training in Minnesota
which we can talk about moreand we hit it off immediately
and stayed friends ever sincethen.
So that was kind of thebeginnings of a friendship that
then turned into a co-authorship.
So I kind of brought theresearch science-y nerd lens to
the book and Rachel brought theclinical practical experience,
(02:40):
which I'll let her say moreabout.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
That sounds fantastic and so much fun.
Now, yes, please, Rachel, sharea little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So I'm Rachel Sampson .
I'm an Australian-basedclinical psychologist and I work
from an attachment lens withcouples, parents and kids and
individuals, using an approachcalled schema therapy, which is
looking at people's childhoodexperiences and how that's
shaped the people that theybecome, and I'm also really
(03:08):
fascinated in the intersectionof temperament and attachment
and how that shapes ourpersonality and the people that
we ultimately become.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
This is so great.
I think everyone right now isunderstanding why I have both of
you on here, because this is mybread and butter.
This is what I love doing.
Now, one of the things that Ireally loved about your book
Beyond Difficult, great, greatterm as well.
Talk to me a little bit wherethat title came from and what
were you really thinking aboutas you were writing this book?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
I think the title to me has two meanings.
The first is when you knowsomebody who you think is beyond
difficult in your life and Ithink most of us have had at
least one relationship that fitsthe bill it doesn't necessarily
have to be that the person ishugely difficult themselves, but
it could just be the nature ofthe interaction that you happen
to have with them.
(03:55):
So there are people who Iconsider to be extremely
difficult in my own life that mypartner has no problem with,
and vice versa.
So there's a bit of aninteraction between what we're
bringing to a relationship andwhat the other person brings.
But the second meaning of thetitle, which hopefully readers
will discover when they get intothe book, is it's usually not
(04:17):
the case that somebody isintentionally trying to make our
life difficult, right?
Usually there is somethinggoing on beyond what's there on
the surface, and if we can diginto that a little bit, have a
greater understanding of what'sgoing on underneath that surface
, we can do a better job ofaddressing underlying issues.
So going beyond difficult alsomeans not just labeling this
(04:38):
person as being a terribleperson, but understanding where
the behavior is coming from andaddressing what's at the root of
it.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I love that you brought this up, because, as I
was reading your book, one ofthe things that I really noticed
was it didn't feel blameythat's a very science word right
Blamey.
As I was reading it, and thisis something I really try to
teach my clients as well, whichis we're not healing our
relationships by making him thebad guy, right, we're not doing
this kind of work over here, andso yours felt really different.
(05:05):
So can you talk to me aboutyour decision to focus on
compassion and science overlabels, rachel?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I think it's because it's what works right.
Like you said, you know you'renot going to heal your
relationship by blaming theother person, and in my work
clinically, I find that so muchtransformation can come just
from people understanding what'sunderneath someone's behavior.
And so, as I said, I do a lot ofwork with parents around
(05:34):
difficulties with their children, and it's the same principle
whether it's working withparents or whether it's working
with couples or adults trying tounderstand their parents and
the way that they were when theywere growing up.
Understanding what's going onunderneath the behavior is
incredibly helpful because ifwe've been interpreting it as
something about us or that it'spersonal that the person is just
(05:58):
treating us that way andsometimes that is the case, you
know, there are times wheresomeone will be very charming
with everybody except, forexample, a partner.
But generally speaking, the waythat someone behaves is telling
us something about what's goingon for them, whether it's their
personality or whether it'sfeeling threatened in a
situation or some unmet needthey have, and so just changing
(06:21):
that lens can change the meaningthat someone is making of
another person's behavior, andthat in itself can bring relief.
So that's part of why that's soimportant for us to look at
that in the book, and then ontop of that there are skills and
strategies that we might learnto then navigate that
relationship.
But that understanding andcompassion piece is so important
(06:44):
.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Such a good point.
You bring up in the book thatdifficult behavior is
communication.
Right, it's a way tocommunicate to someone.
This difficult behavior.
It's not your character.
Can you speak more on that?
Speaker 3 (07:03):
I think it's easiest to think about this with a
little kid, right?
No little child wants to throwa tantrum.
No kid gets pleasure out ofbehaving badly.
There's usually an unmet needthat they're trying to
communicate and they havelimited ability to do so.
And I think a lot of adultdifficult behavior is kind of
like an adult version of atwo-year-old's tantrum.
It's communicating an unmetneed or a feeling of threat or
(07:25):
some emotion that's not able tobe expressed in a mature way and
so it's being acted out in waysthat annoy the heck out of us.
But ultimately is stillcommunication.
And if we can read between thelines of what is this behavior
communicating?
As Rachel said, it's often notpersonal, it's not about us.
It's communicating somethingabout that person, their
emotional state.
And what's often not personal,it's not about us.
It's communicating somethingabout that person, their
(07:46):
emotional state and what's goingon psychologically.
Oftentimes there's more to adifficult situation than meets
the eye.
So a person could be goingthrough a loss or a difficult
home environment and thenbringing that to work with them
or bringing that into a romanticpartnership.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, and it's not always an explicit or
intentional act of communication.
You know, when we say behavioris always communication, it's
not like the person isindirectly trying to send a
message all the time, but we cantranslate that into
communication.
So it might be that someone,whether it's a child or an adult
(08:25):
throwing a tantrum, is feelingangry or feeling unheard.
So we could translate theirbehavior to I'm feeling scared
or I'm feeling angry or I'mfeeling unheard.
So I think that's important.
Just to note that it's notalways an indirect way of trying
to communicate something.
It's that it's telling ussomething about what's going on
(08:48):
for the person and so in thatway, it's communication.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I love that it's trying to tell us something
which, as I was hearing the bothof you talk, I was thinking of
like the toddler throwing atemper tantrum and I have
definitely had my own tempertantrums in my day.
If not, you know, probablymaybe I'll have one this weekend
.
We'll see what happens and whata beautiful way to have
self-compassion for yourself aswell is to realize you are
trying to communicate somethingto someone else as well.
If you blow up, if you startcrying because your husband
(09:13):
comes home and he doesn't kissyou and he goes straight to his
office and all of a sudden itmakes your stomach drop and it
starts to make you cry, thatdoesn't mean there's anything
wrong with you.
It just means your body'strying to communicate something.
Which brings me to kind of ournext point, which in my world,
like in my pre-world, as I say,I thought of myself as just this
way too sensitive of a person.
(09:34):
Like every tiny thing, likeeveryone's eyes, looked at me
slightly different, thathypervigilance that comes, you
know, with a disorganizedattachment.
But something that I noticed inyour book that I really want to
talk about is your section onhighly sensitive people.
I think this is something thatdoesn't get talked enough about,
and the research behind whatyou were talking about was
(09:54):
finally, I want to just shovethis part into people's faces
and be like this is not woo-woo.
Highly sensitive people is areal thing.
So can I just get you guys totalk me through just some of
that stuff in your book a littlebit?
What's your favorite parts ofthat?
What would you really wantsomeone to understand?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think it's really important to always hold in mind
that there's so much variationin temperament.
We think of temperament withkids sometimes, although I think
Westernized societies maybestill aren't so great at always
thinking about children'stemperament and factoring that
into parenting or understandingkids' behavior.
But we are all so different andyou know, we're more familiar
(10:31):
perhaps with extroversion andintroversion.
But there is another dimensionof temperament which is
sensitivity, and we are allsensitive more or less.
So this is a dimension ofeveryone's temperament.
Some of us are higher onsensitivity and some of us are
less sensitive.
And people who are highlysensitive feel things more
(10:52):
strongly, are more impacted bythe world around them, tend to
think about things more deeplyand that may make them prone to
worry.
People will often label thatoverthinking, which we'll come
to, because I think there's nostandard.
It's just that people think moredeeply than others, and there's
also a tendency foroverstimulation, because someone
who is high on sensitivity istaking in so much more input
(11:17):
from the environment.
So this has a huge bearing onrelationships because it is the
way someone is wired, it's theway someone experiences the
world, and if you've got someonewho is low on sensitivity and
someone who is high onsensitivity, you're going to be
reacting very differently tosituations around you and, as
(11:38):
you know Jessie mentionedearlier someone may not be
bothered at all by somethinghappening in the environment or
in a relationship, and the otherperson if it's a couple, the
other partner might be hugelyimpacted by that.
And so if we don't understandtemperament and how we're all
wired really differently, itcould be easy to just dismiss a
highly sensitive person'sexperience and say, oh, you're
(12:01):
too sensitive or you'reoverreacting or you're
overthinking.
But it's actually a very validway of being in the world and,
as you said, this is based inscience.
There's a whole lot of humanresearch, and non-human animal
research as well, that showsthis is an aspect of temperament
that is present in over 100different species of animals.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Oh, wow, that's amazing.
I wish I could remember theexact percentage, but I feel
like I remember something about30%, is it?
30% of us are highly sensitive.
Is that what that was?
Yeah, wow, that blew my mindwhen I realized that and I love
how you're talking about, howyou're not too much, you're not
too sensitive, and you're sayingthose words and I could feel it
in my body and I was like, ohno, each one's like a little
(12:43):
like trigger, like hitting me,cause that was my whole life.
I'm such a sensitive person and, as I'm hearing you talk, I
also think the other personisn't insensitive just because
they don't have the same bigreaction as you do.
You know something's happeningand you know a lot of us know
right now, right, the world is,it's a little bit complicated
right now.
It's a lot.
If someone else isn't asaffected as you are, they're not
(13:05):
insensitive and you're not toosensitive.
We both just have differenttemperaments.
What a beautiful, beautifulthing.
Would you like to speak on thisas well, jessie?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I'll just add that being sensitive, as Rachel said,
doesn't have a value judgmentand it really depends on the
environment that we happen to bein.
So for a highly sensitiveperson in a supportive
environment, whether that meansyou have really nurturing
parents or you have a securerelationship with your romantic
partner or you're in an awesomeworkplace where you get great
(13:33):
support, you're more likely tothrive over and above less
sensitive peers.
But similarly, if you're ahighly sensitive person in a
negative environment, whetherthat means you're exposed to
childhood abuse or neglect oryou're in a school environment,
maybe that just feelsoverstimulating and like it's
too much.
Or if you've experienced somesort of adversity as an adult or
(13:57):
you're reading the news even,you're more likely to be
impacted for the worse.
So it really does depend on thecontext that you're in, and our
temperament means that we'resensitive for better and for
worse.
That's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Let me ask you guys this I'm just thinking off the
cuff Did you find any linksbetween hypersensitivity, or
highly sensitive people, andattachment wounds or attachment
styles in that regards?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yeah, so there is a framework called differential
susceptibility, which is youknow, big term, but it basically
means that we are impacteddifferently by our environment,
and sensitivity is a marker ofthis heightened susceptibility.
And so what the research showsis that, for children who are
(14:41):
highly sensitive, they are morestrongly impacted by parenting,
for better and for worse.
And so, as Jessie said, thereis also this bright side to
sensitivity, where it's not justthat being sensitive means
you're more vulnerable to stressand difficulty.
You're also much more able totake in, support and nurture.
(15:03):
So what the research shows isthat children who are in
difficult environments, who aremore sensitive, are more likely
to be impacted and go on todevelop things like anxiety and
depression and we might look atattachment wounds as being part
of that and also are much morelikely to function well and
(15:25):
optimally, even above and beyondwhat someone less sensitive can
function at, if they have thosebeautiful supportive, nurturing
childhood experiences.
So there is that interplay withattachment wounds, in that
highly sensitive children aremuch more vulnerable and
susceptible to the impact ofparenting.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
I'm hearing you say that if we can give our children
, or even ourselves, anenvironment that allows for our
sensitivity, we can actuallyreally thrive and grow from that
.
Is that right?
Yeah, wow, do you have anythingto share on this as well,
jessie?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Well, just on the hopeful side because I think
it's okay to share.
Both Rachel and I identify ashighly sensitive too.
Sames girls sames.
If you're listening to this andhave a little oh shit moment, I
just want you to know you'renot alone.
And one of the really hopefulthings about high sensitivity is
actually, if you can get goodquality intervention and support
(16:21):
, you're more likely to get morebang for your buck.
So, in other words, if youplace a highly sensitive child
in an intervention that supportsthe parent, they're much more
likely to develop a secureattachment than a less sensitive
kid, because now you've alteredthe environment and they're
more sensitive to that change.
So you actually see greaterimpact of that intervention for
(16:46):
the better.
And I think similarly forhighly sensitive adults.
If you're able to get the kindof support you need, whether
that's through therapy orcoaching or having an awesome
group of friends, you're morelikely to benefit from those
positive relationships too.
So if you're hearing this andfeeling like I'm a highly
sensitive person, what do I dowith this?
Just surround yourself with thebest possible environment.
(17:08):
I think would be step one.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I love that, because that was going to be.
One of my next questions washow can we really support a
highly sensitive person orourselves when this kind of over
stimulation or over sensitivitystarts showing up in our
relationships?
Any ideas?
I?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
think there is things you can do to prevent
overstimulation and overwhelm.
So anticipating what is going tobe hard for you or for a
partner is really useful.
So I'll talk a lot about thatin the clinic with parents, with
couples, with individuals, thatif you know that certain social
(17:43):
situations or relationshipexperiences are going to be a
lot for you, then you mightthink about how you can best
take care of yourself in advanceof that, but then also how
you're going to care foryourself after.
So I have clients I work withwho will schedule breaks or
schedule downtime in theirsocial calendar so that you know
(18:05):
when they know that there'sfamily events where maybe
there's tricky dynamics, thatthen maybe they have a day off
after that.
If they're going to be spendingtime with a friend that maybe
they love, but it's a big thingand it takes a lot of spoons or
a lot of emotional energy, thenmaybe it's taking care of
(18:25):
yourself after that or maybeit's capping how much time you
spend with certain people.
So I think it's just reallythinking about the impact of
certain situations and thenplanning for that, both before
and after.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Thank you for sharing that, because I'm thinking
about a situation in my own life.
In fact, these podcasts when Ido these interviews, they take a
lot out of me.
In the beginning of this work,like a year and a half ago when
I started this, I would justschedule clients and coaching
calls and group coaching andthen a podcast and then going
with my kid to somewhere.
If I couldn't handle it all, Iwould think I failed.
(18:59):
I would think I can't cut it,and what I started learning was
I need to kind of schedule in.
Like I didn't really have muchto do before this and I'm not
going to have any.
I'm going to go on my couchafter this and go like binge
watch, catch up on some realityTV or something, and that's how
I'm scheduling myself in now andI don't negotiate on that
anymore.
So it used to be.
Oh yeah, I don't have anythingin my calendar, but I love what
(19:21):
you said and so I really want tomake sure my listeners are
hearing that this is our time.
Like this is.
If somebody says, hey, are youbusy?
And you're busy, is you know,binge watching big brother with
a packet of crisps, I don't care.
Like that's your time and stickwith it.
Is that kind of what I'mhearing you say?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then there's a lot oftechniques and supports and
ideas in the book as well aroundself-regulation.
So if you do experience stressor you feel like you've been
triggered by a situation, thenthere's also things that you can
learn to do to help regulate,and that will be so individual
(19:59):
for each person.
So we've included a lot ofideas in the book, but we really
recommend people experimentwith what works.
So, for me, deep tissue massageis one of the things that is
just the best reset for me andreally helps me settle after you
know it's been really busy orthere's been stressful things
(20:21):
happening.
For other people it's yoga, orit might be breathing techniques
or getting out in nature, whichI know is something Jesse and I
both love doing.
But when we do reachoverstimulation or you are
emotionally impacted bysomething, then it's about
knowing what really works foryou to help settle your nervous
system and implementing that and, rather than seeing it as a
(20:44):
weakness or something you needto push through, it's really
about honoring that and caringfor your nervous system and your
body and your mind in whateverways work for you as an
individual.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It's such a good point because if we're sensitive
and we're bringing so much in,it's almost like our filter is
just a little like I don't knowthe way I'm picturing it right
now is almost like our filterhas bigger holes or something,
so like we get so much coming atus.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, that must be worth it.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, so it's like it's coming at you so much, so
it's okay to take more breaksthan other people.
Other people could kind of like, go along, it's over here in
the tech world.
So I live in the Bay area,right, so we call this work fast
, break shit, right.
So you just go, go, go, go go,and then you just break things
and you take a break, andthere's some people that just do
steady work forever, and thenthere's some people that go, go,
(21:27):
go, go go, and then they haveto break and then go, go, go,
and either way it is, there's noright or wrong.
That's right.
So, yeah, how about you, jessie?
Do you have any personalexperiences or stories around
this for yourself that you do?
Oh, yeah plenty.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I mean, I think one way to think about it is
everybody has their kind ofoptimal level of stimulation and
we have some control althoughnot complete control about
dialing that up and down withthe environments that we choose.
So I know for myself, especiallyas a college student back in
the day this is now a few yearsago my social life was such that
(22:02):
I really had to be picky abouthow I wanted to engage with
people, because I knew that thebig, loud party thing was
over-simulating for my nervoussystem and that was kind of the
default for hanging out withcertain friends was oh, do you
want to go to this big party?
And I knew that that was goingto be exhausting and sometimes I
(22:23):
would push myself to go just toget out of my comfort zone.
But if I really wanted to getto know somebody and if I wanted
to feel most myself and most atease, I would invite the person
to coffee or to lunch orsomething where we could have a
less stimulating environment andI could talk one-on-one and
really be centered and groundedin the highly sensitive person
(22:43):
that I am.
So that's just one example ofcurating a social environment
that really works for you andwhere you can have authentic
connection as a sensitive person.
But everybody's a littledifferent.
So we interview a young mannamed Jaden in the book who,
when he's overstimulated in asimilar type of environment,
could often be a difficultperson.
And it's not until he sort ofrecognizes this about himself
(23:06):
that he's able to kind of choosethe social situations he most
wants to be in so that he canshow up as his best possible
self.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I love that.
What I hear so much in whatboth of you are talking about is
so much proactivity, just somuch getting to know yourself
being okay with showing up forthat.
And I know that comes withhaving a bit more of a secure
attachment stance.
I understand that that's hardwhen we're when we are anxiously
attached and we're sopreoccupied with everyone else's
opinions about us, it's hard tosay no, I don't want to go to a
loud club, come have coffeewith me.
But you can kind of see thispendulation between the two
(23:37):
things of kind of needing toheal your attachment slightly,
and then that kind of allows youto have more self-compassion
for your highly sensitive selfor any way in which you are,
whether it be this is what youneed or what you don't want.
I love that so much.
Thank you so much for havingthis conversation with me.
I want to kind of switch gearsjust slightly, because I want to
know a little bit more aboutthe different worlds that you
both come from.
I know that one of you is aresearcher.
(23:59):
I believe that's you, jesse,correct?
Yes, okay, yes, that's right,because that's my jam right now
and I was like I want to knowall the stuff you do.
And then, rachel, you have aclinical practice.
Is that correct?
So what was it like for theboth of you, blending your
perspectives together, to writethis Like did you find you know?
Like, oh no, jesse thoughtRachel was difficult, or
Rachel's not, just like, how doyou even handle that together?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
as you're writing, you're like no, I want this
story in the book.
No, I want that story in thebook.
Just tell me a little bit aboutit.
Well, I'll start and just sayit was so much fun.
At least for me it was very fun.
I don't want to speak onRachel's behalf, but before we
were co-authors we were friendsfirst and I think that's an
important foundation Having agood relationship before you
(24:41):
embark on something like havinga book baby together.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It's so personal a book so I'm like, yeah, it must
be so, it's like co-parenting,but for your book, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
It really is, and I think one of the benefits of
working on a collaboration withRachel is we really did bring
different perspectives, butwe're both really grounded in
the same basic lens on the world.
So I think we both filter ourexperience through the lens of
attachment and bring it to thework that we do, even though the
(25:16):
work we do is different.
So from my point of view as aresearcher, I'm really
interested in what the scienceshows about what predicts secure
attachment.
How can we change attachmentstyles over time so that, even
as an adult, if you're grapplingwith anxious attachment or
disorganized attachment, thatyou can slowly shift toward a
more secure pattern?
(25:36):
So what does the scienceactually say about the best
techniques to do that?
But when it comes toimplementing it in practice,
that's where I really defer toRachel, because it's one thing
for me to understand this intheory and have read a bunch of
papers about it, but what Rachelis bringing is more the
practical tools to then workwith somebody to implement it in
(25:56):
the real world.
So that was my experience wasthat it was a really nice
complementarity, but that wekind of started with a
foundation of both friendshipand seeing the world through
this really helpful lens.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's so, so great.
And did you guys write it fromlike opposite ends of the world,
like Resistal was just kind ofdone online.
Oh, that's just so exciting,like don't you just love
technology?
And especially like look at thethree of us being able to talk.
This is great.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, it's wonderful in that way.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, and how about yourself, rachel?
What did you feel like beingable to co-write this book, like
being able to have yourclinical practice?
Like you said, you have thepractical way over here.
So what did you bring to thebook and how did you feel Jessie
brought to it?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I think, as Jessie said, she's got her finger on
the pulse with current researchand has been involved in doing
some of the amazing attachmentresearch and then as clinicians
we are translating that scienceinto something that's accessible
for you know, a lay person whodoesn't have a science
(26:52):
background to understand.
So there's an educationcomponent to therapy and then
also, when you're are usingattachment-based interventions,
you're using that scienceclinically in the way that
you're offering therapy toclients and families.
So Jesse had the science andthe research and really knows
(27:14):
the field.
So if there was new research orif there was a particular study
that supported something thatwe were talking about in the
book, then Jessie would likelyknow what that was and could
bring that.
So I felt very lucky that wewere working together and then I
was able to talk to what thattranslates like in the therapy
(27:35):
room what the interventions dofor people, how people respond,
stories of people'stransformations when they have
been engaged inattachment-focused therapy, and
just people's stories, which Ithink we both bring to the book.
We've got our own personalstories.
Jessie works with students inher teaching role, so you know
(27:55):
she's you know hearing a lot ofstories from students and
interviewees in research andthen as a clinician over years.
You know you have hundreds andthousands of stories from
different people.
So I think it complemented ourexperience, complemented each
other to write the book.
We've got sort of the scienceend and then the therapy, the
(28:16):
practical end and bringing thattogether and, as Jessie said, we
were friends first.
So the actual process ofwriting the book for me was just
seamless.
It really was.
You know, often people haveasked you know, did you have to
work through some of the things?
Speaker 3 (28:33):
that you wrote about.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You know difficult interactions, and I wish we had
some juicy stories to share, butactually we don't.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Dang it.
You're too secure.
This is no fun anymore.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Actually the time zone thing worked really well
for us, because I I would workon a draft during my normal
hours and then send it to rachelwhen I was about to go to sleep
, and she would then pick it upand do a bunch with it while I
was sleeping.
So even that was like you wouldthink being on the opposite side
of the world would be difficult.
I think it's really only beenthat way in the sense that we
(29:09):
can't celebrate in persontogether, but the actual writing
was actually really fun.
To then pass the baton and feellike I can't work on this
anymore Rachel's going to take afresh look at it while she's
nice and awake and I can just goto sleep.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That part just made me yearn for that.
So I'm currently writing mybook right now and I'm working
with Lucky Book Publishing andit feels kind of alone sometimes
.
It feels that lonely, thatfeeling of I'm trying to write
it and I was like somebody justtell me if I'm on the right
track.
So I love that you have thatkind of co-collaborative space
between the two of you to beable to write a book together.
(29:44):
I want to pull back thecurtains a little bit.
What was that like?
Were you guys just chatting onZoom or Skype?
One day or something, you'relike we should write a book?
Yeah, we totally should.
And then you're like, why don'twe?
How long ago was this.
When did you guys decide towrite this amazing book?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Well, when we met in Minnesota, which was 2018, as
Jessie mentioned earlier, wewere there for training in the
strange situation protocol,which, for anyone who hasn't
heard you will know about that,jen, I'm sure is looking at the
attachment between infants andparents, and so you can observe
(30:22):
the way that infants areinteracting with their parents
and assess whether theirattachment is likely to be
secure or insecure, and so wewere there learning how to
interpret the videos from thestrange situation, how to
classify attachments.
so it was 10 intensive days oftraining wow and so we talked
(30:42):
about all kinds of things duringthe 10 days.
You know our own attachmentexperiences, the countries that
we came from, our interest,meditation, and so we really
connected and liked one anotherright away, and so we stayed in
touch when I came back toAustralia and Jessie went back
to where she was from, and thenwe just continued to talk about
(31:06):
all the things that we wereinterested in.
And I had this idea that Iwould like to write a parenting
book, and so I asked Jessie ifshe would be interested in
writing that with me, and so westarted putting our ideas
together over time and then westarted writing for Psychology
Today.
So we did some blog posts onattachment and all the things
that we were both reallypassionate about.
(31:27):
And then I at some point got anemail from a publisher in
Australia who asked if I wouldconsider writing a book, if I
had considered writing a bookfor them, and I said, well,
actually, yes, I have been, youknow thinking of writing a book.
And so they were really wantingit to be general, not just
(31:48):
parents but adults, and so a lotof the ideas that we had been
writing about and had thought toput in a parenting book, we
then put into a book that wasfor anyone adults and that's
where Beyond Difficult was born.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Thank you for sharing that.
I love knowing the insideworkings of how things work, and
what I think is really coolabout this book is because it's
a book about attachment stylesas well right, A book about what
is it like to attach in arelationship, and it's a very
unique thing.
I've read almost everyattachment book I can get my
hands on out there, and thisreally cool, unique part is that
the two of you are workingtogether to do this and so you
kind of see this bond formingand happening and it just brings
(32:26):
a level to this book that Idon't think is like, unlike any
other attachment book out therewhich is a lot of just like
fluff or do this or just date asecure man that'll heal you.
You know stupid shit like thatand you know shade totally
thrown, I admit it and so likethis is what I love, so I just I
(32:47):
highly recommend anyone outthere right now listening and
you're like, okay, what?
kind of book could I get?
Is it science?
Yeah, but like it's alsopractical and that's what's
really great about it.
So if you listen to my show andyou like really love this the
way I dig into science and theway I dig into research and how
I'm not just looking at thingsfrom kind of this psych pop,
college-y kind of thing overhere and I'm really looking at
like no, this is what this shows.
Like you cannot heal yourattachment style in 90 days.
(33:08):
I don't care what a courseonline tells you, it takes one
to four years research.
Like that is what this book is.
So if you want to dive into ita little bit more, like if you
really want to dive into yourattachment style, if you want to
understand highly sensitivepeople more, if you want to
understand that you are notbroken, that it is not your
fault, that you are allowed totake up space and be whoever you
are, then I highly, highlyrecommend this book.
(33:28):
So, as we're wrapping up today,ladies, I want to just kind of
get really practical.
As the listeners have comealong on this journey with us,
what is something right now thatthey could try today that could
help them with a difficultperson?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
I think my number one would be to work on emotion
regulation within yourself.
That's the first thing that'swithin your control and
regardless of your attachmenthistory, you probably know what
is effective for you in helpingcalm down from a strong emotion.
So if the difficult person inyour life is bringing up a lot
(34:03):
of intense anger, you mightexperiment first with deep
breathing.
I know for me that's my go-towhen I'm feeling kind of
overwhelmed with rage and alsostaying grounded in your body.
So if you notice yourself kindof spinning out into a lot of
thoughts and rumination, comingback to the breath and coming
(34:24):
back to feeling your feet on theground is a first step, at
least for me.
And oftentimes before I'm ableto fully engage with somebody
who's making me crazy, I need totake a walk around the block.
So physical movement hasactually been shown to help with
depression, anxiety in themoment, emotion regulation,
(34:45):
dissociation, all sorts of greatthings.
In fact, there was a recentmeta-analysis about exercise for
depression that showed thatdance was by far the most
effective, which I just think isfascinating and so interesting.
So dance it out if that's foryou.
But I would say, experimentwith a flexible repertoire of
(35:07):
strategies that can help youregulate emotion.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Oh, that's beautiful.
Can I hear you say that onemore time?
Sorry, that was just so good.
A flexible repertoire ofdifferent ideas Is that what I
heard you say?
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Yeah, just try out different strategies, because it
could be that the one you pullon in a moment, in a particular
moment, is not working for you.
So then, to be able to flexiblyshift into some other strategy.
Okay, I still feel so angry atthis person.
Let me go take a walk and nowcome back with some fresh
perspective.
(35:38):
I think having a couple ofthings in your back pocket to
try when you're dealing with adifficult person is helpful.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Thank you so much for that.
All right, so we have emotionalregulation being flexible
within your regulation.
Have all these ideas andnothing's wrong if one doesn't
work Sometimes we just need tomix it up.
Sometimes and you heard her sayit dance it out.
You guys all know I say thisall the time.
I love it, but could I justlike geek out with you on
research after this, jessie,because this is like I love when
you just pull this out.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
This is great, always , always Jen.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
This is amazing.
All right, rachel, how aboutyou?
Just one kind of practical tipto handle difficult people.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So I come back to that idea that behavior is
communication and, I think,often coming back to basics,
because that often falls awaywhen we're triggered or we're
stressed or we're stuck inconflict with someone.
People will often escalate intheir efforts to be heard if
they're not feeling heard, andso difficult behavior tends to
(36:35):
escalate when the person that weperceive as difficult doesn't
feel heard.
So I would come back to thisidea of deep listening, heard.
So I would come back to thisidea of deep listening.
Slowing everything down andgiving your undivided, full
attention to the other person inthe moment is likely to bring
down intense emotion.
(36:55):
It's likely to preventescalation.
If it's a child, it can helpwith the meltdown or the tantrum
.
So it sounds simple, but it'shard to hold on to when we're
stressed and a lot of problemscan be dealt with later.
You know there's this questionis this an emergency?
You know, do you need to solvethis with your partner right now
(37:16):
?
Do you need to teach your childa skill of anger management
right now?
No, you don't it's, you know.
Unless it's an emergency, thenyou've got time.
So slowing it down, reallylistening, and with that, you
know, really classic counsellingstrategy is saying back to the
other person what you've heardthem say, and that could be as
(37:39):
simple as I get it, you'repissed with me.
Or you know, yeah, I cut thebanana if it's a toddler.
You know I cut the banana andyou pissed with me.
Or you know, yeah, I cut thebanana if it's a toddler.
You know I cut the banana andyou didn't want to cut you know
whatever.
And you can say you know, isthat right?
Is that?
Is that what's bothered you?
And allow the other person theopportunity to correct you.
You know, no, it's not that,it's this.
And keep going until the personfeels hurt.
Often that really settlesthings.
(38:00):
So that's just a great place tocome back to when things are
escalating.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Beautiful.
So we have emotional regulation, deep listening.
Both of those have kind of thisoverall just slow down If we
feel ourself kind of gettingfast and kinetic.
Just come back to your breath,listen intently, and that's
where it's at All.
Right.
Such a beautiful conversation.
Now where can my listeners findyour book right now and connect
with your work?
Let's start with Jesse.
(38:25):
Jesse, share any social mediathat you have, as well as where
the book can be found, sure.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
So the book is on bookshelves in Australia and New
Zealand, but if you're in theStates, like I am, you can order
a paperback copy throughReadings R-E-A-D-I-N-G-S
Readings Books.
It's also available on ebookfor Kindle on Amazon and it
should be coming out onaudiobook any day now through
Audible.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Oh, that's exciting.
That's so great.
And how can people follow youif they want to know more?
Jessie, are you online anywheredoing research as well?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
I am, so you're welcome to follow me at Dr
Jessie Stern on Instagram orJess A Stern on X Twitter.
I still call it Twitter.
Same Rachel is usually more upto date on these things than I
am.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Oh, perfect, I will pivot over to Rachel.
Rachel, where can we follow?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
you learn more.
What is it that you're sharing?
Go ahead.
So I am on Instagram atAustralian Psychologist and
there's a website atrachelsamsonco.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Perfect, All right, everyone.
I really highly recommend goingand get that book.
I will have all of the links inthe show notes as well, just
for you to go ahead and click onand, as well, if you have more
questions about what's going on,come join us in our free
Facebook community.
You go to Speak Honest.
You can just search for it onFacebook.
It's got two little orangehearts so it stands out.
And just keep asking questionslike hey, Jen, you know, Jesse
(39:50):
said this thing here Like tellme more about it.
I'll be like, okay, yeah, let'slike look into the research and
see where this is coming from.
Or hey, I want some help withhow can I actually get to a
place where I'm deep like theCharlie Brown teacher because
I'm pissed off so much.
And that just comes withpractice, that just comes with
compassion, and sometimes itcomes with working with someone
like a coach or a counselor or atherapist or a psychologist,
(40:12):
and it's about finding theperson that works for you.
Well, I just want to say thankyou so much, Rachel and Jesse,
for coming on the show today.
Is there anything else youwould like to say before we wrap
up just now?
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Thank you for having us.
It's been a great conversation,and it's always so nice for
Jessie and I to see each otherface to face as well, so it's
lovely.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
That's okay.
I'm so glad I could bring thisreunion together.
I would love to have you guyscome back on again just to like
shoot some shit and just liketalk about things.
Maybe we find out some moreinformation out there and like
what could we be doing?
Maybe you guys are gonna writea second book.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Come and tell me about it you forget how hard the
first baby was, so you want todo it again.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
That's what they say.
I'm currently in the pregnantstage of my book.
Oh, I can share it with youguys see what you think as well.
That'd be good, but oh, we'dlove that and, as jesse said,
dance it out.
Y'all like this is what it'sall about.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
You just yeah, that movement, it brings it in.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
So thank you all so much.
Have a beautiful evening and Iwill speak with you all next
week.
Take care, as we wrap uptoday's conversation, always
remember that healing is ajourney, not a destination, and
it is an honor to be a part ofyour healing journey.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we cover today, be
(41:31):
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode
right there.
And please remember to rate,review and subscribe if you
enjoyed today's podcast.
Your feedback means the worldto us and helps others discover
our podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
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