Have you ever wondered if your chronic pain could actually be your body trying to tell you something?
In this episode, I sit down with licensed therapist Nyle Biondi to explore the powerful connection between trauma, attachment wounds, and chronic pain. We talk about how the nervous system stores stress, why pain isn’t always “just physical,” and what emotional release has to do with finding real relief. Along the way, I share my own struggles with chronic back pain and how these insights hit home for me in a big way.
You might want to listen if:
- You’ve been struggling with chronic pain that doctors can’t explain
- You feel dismissed or blamed when seeking help for your symptoms
- You’ve done trauma work but still carry pain in your body
- You wonder why your body “shuts down” during stress or big emotions
- You’re curious about how attachment healing can bring more ease, safety, and resilience
About Our Guest:
Nyle specializes in mind-body healing for chronic pain and trauma. With a deep commitment to the trans and queer communities, he helps clients break free from the physical and emotional toll of oppression, stress, and past wounds. His work integrates neuroplasticity, attachment healing, and nervous system regulation to support lasting transformation.
https://www.healingwithinpsychotherapy.com
https://queerresilience.substack.com
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DISCLAIMER: Speak Honest podcast content is informational, not professional or medical advice. Jenn is an ICF relationship coach, not a licensed therapist. Consult health ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone and welcome backto another episode of Speak
Honest.
I have a special guest and I'mso excited to get started.
But first and foremost, if youare new here, welcome.
(00:47):
I am Jen Noble, I am your go-torelationship coach and here at
Speak Honest we talk about thehard subjects.
So I have on today with meNiall Bondy.
Now I will get going on.
What Niall is gonna be talkingto us about.
But if while you're listeningto our conversation, which us
(01:08):
about, but if while you'relistening to our conversation,
which is all going to be abouttrauma, attachment, wounds,
chronic pain, how we can healthose, if this is something that
you are interested in and youhave been wanting to heal for
yourself, then I highlyrecommend you continue the
conversation with us over in ourfree Facebook community.
You just go right on Facebooktype in Speak Honest it has
these cute little orange heartsnext to it, so you know it's
ours.
Or you can scroll on down tothe show notes and click on the
link and join us there.
But while we are gettingstarted, I want to tell you
about Niall.
Niall is a licensed therapistwho specializes in trauma,
(01:31):
attachment wounds and chronicpain, especially in the LGBTQ
community.
With a deep passion formind-body healing, niall helps
his clients break free from theemotional and physical toll of
past wounds, stress and systemicoppression.
His work blends neuroplasticitymy favorite thing attachment
theory and nervous systemregulation to support true,
(01:52):
lasting transformation.
You can see why I want him onthis show, guys.
This is everything that I talkabout all the time.
This is not just symptom relief.
Whether he's helping someoneuntangle the roots of chronic
pain or he's guiding queercouples through the early stages
of connection, nile's approachis deeply compassionate,
research-informed and rooted inresilience.
He's also the voice which Ithink is important behind the
(02:16):
Queer Resilience newsletter onSubstack which I was actually
able to write a small piece for,where he shares insights, tools
and real talk for healing in aworld that doesn't always make
it easy, isn't that the truth?
And if you do want to learnmore about Niall, we will drop
some links in the show notes.
But you can go tohealingwithinpsychotherapycom or
you can go read his blog overat queerresiliencesubsectcom.
(02:37):
With all of that said, niall,go ahead and say hi, introduce
yourself, share anything Ididn't just share there.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Hello, you covered a lot.
Thank you for that warmwelcoming intro.
I'm just excited to be here totalk about chronic pain,
attachment, healing, all of thatstuff you know, as we were just
talking about.
I'd love talking about thechronic pain world because a lot
of people just don't have theright information about what
(03:03):
causes chronic pain and the waysout of it.
So I love to just be able toshare that a little bit,
hopefully offer some hope topeople.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Tell me a little bit more about your background.
When did you get started withchronic pain?
Is this predominantly what youdo now?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, I got started with this work in 2019 as a
result of my own chronic painjourney.
I hadn't identified that I hadchronic pain, because I had kind
of a strange condition.
I was diagnosed with somethingcalled burning mouth syndrome,
but what that meant for me wasthat it felt like I had paper
cuts on my tongue at all times.
(03:36):
It was inflamed and painful andjust strange Like the doctors
were kind of just like yep,sorry, we don't know what to do
for you, but I thought ofchronic pain as like back pain
or knee pain or fibromyalgia,those sorts of things, so I
never related to being a personwith chronic pain.
But anyway, long story short, afriend of mine one day just
(03:56):
said hey, I think you shouldcheck out this podcast called
the Cure for Chronic Pain, and Idid, and I started doing the
work that she talked about inthat podcast.
Pain and I did, and I starteddoing the work that she talked
about in that podcast.
And it worked for me right away.
I listened to that podcast yeah, yeah, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
And so then I went and gottrained in something called pain
reprocessing therapy, whichreally works with the
neuroplasticity.
(04:17):
The stuff that I got from thecure for chronic pain from
Nicole Sachs is really emotionsbased work, really talking about
how trauma and emotions getstuck in our body and how that
can sometimes manifest as painand symptoms.
And then the pain reprocessingtherapy is like really working
with the brain in terms oftrying to help your brain
(04:38):
reframe something from pain tojust a sensation and then over
time it sort of turns down thevolume on that sensation as you
teach your brain I'm notactually in danger.
It's not dangerous for me to besitting in this chair right now
, or it's not dangerous for meto go for a walk.
Then your brain can learn howto turn the volume down on that
(04:58):
signal.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, this is so fascinating.
Okay, so anyone that knows mystory, I definitely have dealt
with chronic pain.
It is absolutely my identityEver since I had my son 14 years
ago.
I threw my back out when he wasonly like a month old, hanging
laundry, and I've quiteliterally never been the same
since.
I have had pain every day of mylife.
Since that moment, I have beenin ERs.
(05:21):
I've had surgeries, I've hadsteroid injections, I've been on
medicine.
No doctor tells me what's wrongwith me.
There's nothing on the MRI,nothing is going on.
I just live with it.
And I gained a whole bunch ofweight.
I got surgery to lose a wholebunch of weight.
So finally they started takingme more seriously because, hi,
I'm not just like a fat womannow.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Hi, so common.
Yeah, I'm so sorry, right.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So common Like, oh, you just need to lose weight.
You need to lose weight.
It's like, yeah, no, shit,Sherlock, I've been trying and
like nothing's working.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, and that's not what's causing your pain.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And, I'm sorry, also a good point, but they made you
believe that?
They did because they have noidea.
And so all this stuff and itgets messed up in your head
anyways.
And so trying to figure outthis back pain, degenerative
disc disease, do I or do I nothave fibromyalgia?
This doctor says I do.
This doctor says I don't.
It's a mindfuck, honestly,niall.
I hope that's okay.
I say that, but can you speakon that a little bit at all?
(06:14):
What is that like?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I mean.
First off, that's a classicstory that I hear that there's
nothing on my imaging.
The doctors don't know.
I nothing on my imaging, thedoctors don't know.
I've been in constant pain foryears.
No one can help me, and thereason for that is because
you're trying to treat itthrough your body, but the
problem is actually in yourbrain and your nervous system,
(06:36):
and so as long as you're tryingto treat your body, you're not
getting to that root issue.
So sometimes you'll even seepeople.
I actually just had a friendwho went through a pretty major
surgery to fix some pain, and sopeople go through back
surgeries a lot.
But when the underlying issueis actually more of a mind-body
connection, what happens is thatthe pain pops up somewhere else
later.
And so I have a friend goingthrough this right now who just
(06:59):
had one surgery and then now haspain somewhere else and is like
what's going on?
And so that's where I'm likeokay, I know what's going on.
Are you ready to kind of roll upyour sleeves?
I can steer you in the rightdirection at the very least.
First I just want to say I'msorry.
I think it's such a commonissue.
The doctors don't know.
They don't really believe me.
(07:20):
I've maybe had to try to proveit to people, but nothing that
they suggest works.
So do you mind like doing alittle experiment?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
I'd love it yes.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Okay, yeah, are you in pain right now?
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yes, because I'm sitting with my legs crossed,
often because with one legtucked up to try to help my back
pain.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So yeah, yeah, okay so just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I'd say like a one or two.
You can tell I talk to doctorsa lot because I know my pain
levels and numbers at all times.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, so not too bad, okay.
So I want you to describe thepain to me using neutral terms.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Okay, this is good.
Pinching, throbbing,uncomfortable, I guess that's
kind of not neutral.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
But that's okay pinching and throbbing mainly
okay, and now I want you to justtake a moment and just just be
with those sensations.
Close your eyes, if that'scomfortable, and and take some
deep breaths and just noticethem.
Just see if you notice anyshifts, any changes.
(08:26):
Just just be an observer towhat's happening in your body.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Interestingly, it's gotten worse.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Okay, yeah, sometimes that happens.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, I know, this is why I try to avoid it, but like
, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
But.
But from my perspective that'sa good sign.
I agree.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Knowing what I know too about the work that I do, I
totally agree.
So this is great.
I want to tell the listenersreal quick.
Can we pull back the curtainreal quick, niall?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I've been doing this work for quite a while too pain,
somatic work.
I worked with Gabor Mate andthings like that with all of
this.
So I obviously have a bit of anunderstanding with what's going
on.
But I also want to get backinto that old body sometimes
that I have, where I feel thatresistance and I feel that pain
and I feel that frustration ofthat girl that used to just hate
this.
So now, you know, I could kindof be like oh yeah, it's there
(09:12):
and it's probably telling methat I need to rest after this,
you know, and I'm like no, no,stop it.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Like yeah, so I want to go.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I want to do this.
Thank you for doing thisexercise right now, so people
can see this.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Right yeah, so I'm not going to do your own
personal therapy session on air.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Oh, come on, I want a personal therapy session, niall
.
I think we can.
It's your podcast I mean,that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
But why?
This is a good sign to me,because nothing changed, right?
You're still just sitting inthe same chair.
Nothing changed, other than youdrew your attention to this
part of your body and your brainwent oh, you're in danger, like
, turn on the volume.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I don't want to be here.
That's what's happening.
I'm getting squirmy I want togo lay down.
I want to put an ice pack on myback.
I want to go for a walk becausethat helps loosen up.
I didn't get a chance for awalk today because I had a
client before you.
So now my brain is also going amile a minute.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, and your brain is fixating on like oh, if I
just do this physical thing,that'll fix this.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, keep going, that's good.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
But really you nailed it.
It's like you're uncomfortableabout going inward and being
with what's there, and so yourbrain is like let me take you
out of your internal emotionalprocess.
I like, let me take you out ofyour internal emotional process,
I'm going to distract you withthis physical pain.
Why don't?
It's this walk that you didn'ttake this morning that is
causing this problem.
(10:31):
If you could just get out oftalking to this guy.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
you know, go take your walk.
No, you're hitting me hardright now.
Keep going.
This is this is me.
I often think I didn't doenough.
I ate something bad last night,so now it's flaming me.
You know, I had gluten.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I ate some pasta last night.
Yes, this is so classic.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, and it's still there in my brain as we're
talking.
This is so good.
Yeah, this is going to be youknow what?
Guys Turn this podcast offtoday.
Niall is.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I'm just going to hire Niall for right now he's
just going to talk you throughthis.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That is what goes on in my mind right there, and you
caught it.
You mirrored that back to mebeautifully.
Can you talk more about what'sgoing on there for people?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Most of us grew up fearing our emotions, right Like
it wasn't safe for us toexperience big emotions, and
Gabor Mate talks about thisbeautifully.
He's got just a really shortYouTube video called
Authenticity Versus Attachmentwhere he talks about you know
just, we're wired for attachmentas young people and sometimes
(11:26):
we have to sacrifice our ownauthenticity to maintain that
attachment, and so sometimesthat means hiding who we are,
hiding big emotions, or if we'regrowing up in a chaotic
environment, we might get themessage from our parents we need
you to just not make any waves,which causes us to repress,
causes us to hide, and thenthose big emotions become very
scary to us and so we avoid themat all costs.
(11:48):
We become very busy, we take ona million activities, we numb
out, we avoid, we distract justall of the ways that I could go
off on Like.
I think this is the problem inthe whole world and society, and
you know it really is problemin the whole world and society,
and you know it really is.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So something that's coming up for me right now, then
, is I have been, I've beendealing with this for 14 years
and in my you know healing workthat for me this didn't come
from chronic pain, it came froma broken heart and you know I I
found how you and I know eachother through the integrated
attachment theory and I gotcertified in that and all you
know it's like, oh my God, thisis.
This is why I'm attachmentfocused coach.
Now I'm like, yeah, attachmentstyles You're also, you know,
(12:29):
with attachment wounding and allthat stuff.
So I started healing and Istarted working through my
emotions and I got a compassioninquiry you know practitioner
through the Gabor Mate coursethat I went through and I I went
through some deep healing andI've been through other types of
modalities of healing this andI know how to meditate now and I
(12:51):
know again, you can hear metalking about doing.
I hear it.
I hear it as soon as it'scoming up.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
And I still have pain , it still runs my life, it
still ruins my life.
I just I want to be honestabout this.
It means I can't go and go on awalk.
I can barely go to Disneylandwithout I have to get a scooter.
I can't stand in line.
Yeah, I have to get adisability pass or else I can't
sit in my class.
I last fall.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I missed out on two weeks of class.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Because I couldn't move, and this coming from
somebody who thinks she knowsher shit.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
So talk me through that I'm really glad you're
bringing this up, because Ithink, like the people who are a
little bit on board with themind body idea are like, yeah,
but I've done the trauma workand I still have pain.
And the key thing here is thatthere's nobody's bridging the
gap, for you have to reallyunderstand the mechanism of the
pain and what your brain isdoing in real time, because it's
(13:49):
like your brain has developedthese subtle strategies that
it's been using for decades totry to keep you safe, and so you
have to, like, just figure outoh, that's the way my brain is
trying to keep me safe.
That's a false signal that mybrain is sending out, but you
have to be aware of it to beable to work your way out of it.
Just really getting into thespecifics of you know for you,
(14:10):
if are you in pain, like is itreally constant or is it at
certain times of the day?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It gets worse for doing certain things.
There's a constant low level,hum kind of at all times, mainly
my lower back, but then, like,like right now, I'm having a
neck problem.
This is why, like, I've beendiagnosed with fibromyalgia
because, like you said, it'lljump.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, it bounces, yeah.
So sometimes when I have peopledo what we were doing before,
it's called somatic tracking,where you're just tuning into
the sensations and trying toreframe it.
And the reason I had you useneutral terms is just because
when we say things like, oh,it's excruciating, it's the
worst pain ever, you're likesolidifying to your brain this
is terrifying, this is awful,get me out of it.
(14:52):
And then your brain is like, oh, you're in danger, I'm going to
send out a louder danger signaland you like stumbled for like
a hot minute of like what is aneutral term to describe this?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
which really showcased to me some of the work
I still need to be doing aroundthis of like, oh, I haven't
actually done a neutral term ina while, but what a beautiful
way to say that.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Right.
So a lot of the work I do withpeople is teaching them how to
recognize when they're in a fearcycle and then how to get out
of it.
So like if you have the thoughtevery time you stand up of like
, oh, this is going to make mypain worse, you know, just
starting to go like, okay,sometimes my pain increases when
I stand up, but I know thatit's safe for me to stand up and
that's okay for me to do.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So something just came up then for me right there.
This is good Can?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
we just keep doing this Like I want to listen to my
body, my somatic like okay,fine, more useful than me.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
This is like one of those unique situations where
you get this like incrediblywell-adapted like client in
front of you, right now.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
My body just pushed back against that.
My stomach flopped and it saidbut I'm not safe.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yep, so talk me through that.
Why isn't it safe for you tostand up?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Because my back might go out.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And what does that mean when your back goes out?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It means like it's almost like a Charlie horse of
my muscles and my lower back andthen if it goes out, I'm, I'm
fucked Like I can't move, Ican't walk.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, how often does that happen for you just from
standing up?
Speaker 1 (16:18):
In the last 14 years.
It's probably like apredominant way in which my back
goes out, like either bendingdown to get up or like getting
up.
There's like this intense pain.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, no, I'm glad you're bringing this up, because
sometimes we have to sort ofwork with different layers.
Something like extreme muscletightness is very much in the
mind-body world, but somethinglike somatic tracking isn't
going to like loosen that up foryou immediately, and so that's
where we would get more intolearning how to release
repressed emotions.
Journaling is kind of the topway to do that, and that's the
(16:48):
stuff where, when I firstencountered this work, I was
like this sounds like bullshit,but I will do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I feel that deeply and sometimes it and here's the
problem and actually we get thisanywhere right, because even in
like our attachment world,there's a lot of people that
throw stupid shit out there.
That's not real, like you know,like no, not all avoidance are
villains that want to break yourheart at all the time, you know
.
And and no, not all anxiouslyattached women are like these
needy, clingy, crying whinersall the time.
(17:14):
So in the chronic pain world,there are a lot of unfortunate
rhetoric out there of just likeoh well, your pain is just in
your head and like away, and soif you're still having pain,
then you just haven't workedthrough it.
But can I tell you, to me itfeels blame it's dismissive and
blamey yeah thank you.
(17:34):
So I think that's the thing thatgets me stuck sometimes, as I'm
like, but I have done the workand I know my clients have done
the work well, yeah, it's, thework is just a little different.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It's really hard for me to explain to you why, and
it's like for whatever reason.
When people get into thisspecific journaling process and
just start to learn how to lookat what's happening in their
body with a different lens, thenthey start to go oh, I realized
that, like at age seven, Iinternalized this about myself
(18:05):
and I kept this emotion in, andyou know, it's just I don't know
.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
It's hard to describe .
No, it is.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
But people just start to make these connections in a
different way and so, like backto your back pain, like if you
were my client, I would want toreally get into, like, what was
happening the year leading up toyour son's birth and what was
happening the year leading up toyour son's birth and what was
happening around that time thatwas so stressful to you.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
I have actually tracked it back because I've
done some of those journalingprocesses and things like that,
and that's the interesting partfor me.
It goes back to like my myfamily trauma, like specifically
with my siblings, andspecifically like let's get real
Cause, why not Right?
Like the sexual trauma thathappened to me as a kid and so,
um, and the trapped feeling ofwhat that is, and so I think
what was happening is when myback goes out.
(18:49):
So this is what I've workedwith with a practitioner.
I was working with, um, buttell me what you think if this
sounds up your alley.
Do you know what I mean?
like if this is like okay,tracking, it's this weird way in
which I trap myself.
So I have a big wounding around, feeling trapped.
I am trapped.
It makes total sense.
A lot of people with sexualtrauma have that wounding.
Yeah, makes sense.
And what happens is in thesemoments leading up to, you know,
(19:12):
giving birth, I think I wasfeeling I was, oh, I was a
disaster.
Niall, I've also been diagnosedwith borderline, which I don't
even know what you know, I don'tcare Like it's just emotional
dysregulation.
It's high.
I was traumatized as a kid andI'm a woman, so that's what
they're going to diagnose me as.
But I was a disaster pregnant,all my hormones everywhere.
I was postpartum depressionlike crazy for the first two
(19:32):
years of my son's life and Ijust trapped myself.
And so what happens is when myback goes out, I get attention,
I get help and I get to rest,and so these started coming up.
So it makes sense, like in thefall when I'm back at school and
I had a lot going on I think Ijust signed my book publishing
(19:53):
deal, right, like things weregoing really well with me my
back went out for two weeks, butit's still fucking pisses me
off because I have a lot to do.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, Well, right, and so I mean you know, through
some of the attachment work,like part of it is about
teaching your system.
I don't need to get my needsmet in this way anymore, and
it's actually not a good way forme to get my needs met Again.
If we were working together, Ithink it would be a combination
of, like the emotions based work, I promise you.
I thought that I didn't need todo that work either, and as
(20:22):
soon as I started doing it I waslike, oh boy oh boy.
I had repressed a lot Like you,just don't even know because
it's repressed.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Good point and we still need to keep doing it
right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah Well, because also, like things have happened
to you since you've done thetrauma work, you know it's not
like we just resolve our shitand then life is good.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's not like my familynever randomly reaches out to me
or like I see something onFacebook that triggers me.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah yeah, yeah, right, all of those things.
And it's really about learninghow to discharge stress from
your body in a different way.
So it's not like if you work 60hours a week, you have to work
30 hours a week.
It's not that it's likelearning how to get the stress
of a 60 hour work week out ofyour body, like out of your
(21:07):
psyche.
Sometimes it's just likechanging your thought patterns,
like how you approach asituation.
Sometimes it's like dischargingthe stress at the end of the
day.
If you had a shitty interactionwith a coworker, like letting
that energy out through thejournaling so that next day when
you have to show up at work youdon't have that like dreading
kind of feeling about thatcoworker.
(21:28):
You've like let it out and it'sdone and you're ready to move
on.
So it's just like a lot oflittle strategies of like okay,
I talk to people a lot aboutlearning how to live your life
just more from a place of ease.
So when you talk about like thesort of obsession to fix the
back pain that actually makes itworse because you're telling
your nervous system like I can'tlive until we solve this
(21:52):
problem, basically, like I can'tbe okay until this is solved,
and your brain's like, oh,you're in danger, I know what to
do, and so it's like you guysare just miscommunicating.
So you know it's.
It's like being able to go okay, I'm going to try this new
strategy, even though I'm notsure that it's going to work,
because what do I have to lose?
But not like this has to workor else, or it's like getting
(22:15):
out of that kind of energy.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I love how wrapped around my brain gets in terms of
all of this stuff that you'resaying, because a part of my
brain is also like yeah, but I'msuch a yeah, I'm such a yeah,
but yeah, but isn't the act ofgoing and finding, say like a
chronic pain specialisttherapist, me trying to get rid
of the back pain?
So then am I not justperpetuating the cycle?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yes, and I'm going to give that a yes and right, like
, because if, if, like thatwould maybe be the first step
for you is just like okay, we'rejust going to try a new thing
and we're going to see how itgoes, rather than this life and
death Like, this has to work orelse.
Or, if this doesn't work, thenI'm going to try this and this
and this and this, just goingokay, I've been in back pain for
(22:59):
14 years, so a few more monthsis not going to kill me.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I like to say this to my clients all the time
Everything's an experiment inlife.
So like even now I can hear itright.
It's like, like I said, theseare my first initial reactions,
just so anyone out there doesn'tfeel alone.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, no, I love it Again.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
it's more useful to people because the listeners
would be like, yeah, but yeah,but yeah, I always tell the
girls in my programs bring meyour yeah, but yeah, but yeah, I
always tell the girls in myprograms, bring me your yeah,
but like when we're talkingabout reprogramming and like
refiring like our neuronstogether, and they'll be like
yeah, but and I'm like I love it, I need to talk about.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It means we're engaged, right.
You're not just people pleasingme, which is actually part of
chronic pain.
Most of us are perfectionistsand people pleasers because we
learn to be that way for peopleto like us or to stay safe.
And it's this sense of like.
If I'm not these things, thenyou won't like me or I'll get
rejected or abandoned.
(23:53):
And it's more fear, right.
And so part of the deepest workis getting to a place where,
like, you're really okay withyou and you know that you've got
your back, even if somebodythinks you're a weirdo or
whatever.
Or you know, like all thethings that we worry about, that
when we zoom out, we're like,actually, who cares if my
colleagues think I'm wearing aweird outfit, it doesn't matter,
(24:14):
you know it doesn't actuallymatter.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I know and you like, when you get yourself into that
like reality of it, it's likewhat's the worst thing that
could actually happen.
I love, I love future fearingand following it out to get them
to really see like, okay, andthen what will happen.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
And then what, and then what, and then what so?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I keep going there.
But let me ask you this, justto transition into more of the
how, because I love what you'retalking about and, genuinely
speaking, even right now I'mthinking I need more work.
I have more work to do.
I have.
I can tell I still have traumaand triggers around my family
Like they still piss me off.
I, you know I've gotten to agood place where I can kind of
be around them.
(24:51):
But there are still times whereI'll cry Like and that's good.
Don't get me wrong.
I know that that doesn't meanI'm like never going to heal,
but it means I can tell there'ssomething still going on inside
of me.
I get vertigo, I get this neckpain, I get this lower back pain
.
All of these ideas are going on.
I'm thinking, okay, that's mybody telling me something's up.
Also, I do just, you know,agree that like this could be
(25:12):
there forever and that's okay,it's just going to be my
constant.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
All of those symptoms are fit into the mind body
world, but but again.
So instead of like what's wrongwith my body, I would encourage
you to just think about what ismy body telling me.
What is my body telling me?
Why does my body think I'munsafe right now, you know,
because vertigo same thing.
It's like your body's like youbetter lay down, you better get
back in bed.
But why?
Why does your body think thatyou shouldn't leave the house
(25:36):
during those times?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Just like on a side tangent vertigo was the worst
thing and it happened to me.
This is also just like a sidething and I think I hear this a
lot with clients.
It happens when they startjoining my program Out of
nowhere.
Their life blows up.
So I started yoga and when Iwas doing yoga I got a vertigo
attack and I threw up in theyoga studio.
Sorry, this is not funny, no itis ridiculous, I know, and all
(26:00):
I could think about is likehumiliating I mean I'm
embarrassed, I'm humiliated.
I'm trying to better my life.
Like this happens a lot, youknow, and I'm like, and I get in
this like mindset and I'm like,oh fuck it.
Like I'm supposed to bebettering my life and now you
won't even let me.
And I see this happen.
There was like there was aclient recently just signed up
for my program.
It's the relationship rebootprogram.
It's so beautiful.
She just came in and out ofnowhere, her car breaks down,
(26:23):
Her mom gets sick and her dogneeds to go to the vet, are you
kidding me right?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
now yeah, so you're not talking like there's a
breakup.
Suddenly I was like, well, thatwould make sense, but yeah, no,
just weird stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
No, it's like sometimes that happens in life
and something I've workedthrough is like just realizing
like okay, shit's going tohappen.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, right, and embodying more of that, Because
even in that there's like this Iwas trying to get better.
There's so much pressure andstress and anger in the.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I'm trying to relax, I'm trying to do yoga here and
be mindful, damn it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Right, right, and so it's like being able to go.
Okay, I wanted to relax andthis is what was thrown my way
today and sucks, and that was atough one for me.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
It took me out of like going to this concert where
I'd spent a lot of money on itto meet Anthony Rapp, because
rent is like my favorite thingin the whole wide world and so I
was going to go get a chance tomeet him.
But I woke up that morning andI couldn't move, Like the whole
world was spinning, and in thosemoments I'm like this isn't
trying to tell me anything, it'sjust trying to attack me.
Do you hear that Like?
(27:27):
Do you hear my brain?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
thinking that.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I know it's not true, but it's what I was feeling.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Sure, yeah Well, and it's your brain trying to keep
you safe, but it's misguided,right.
It's like your brain is likethis is too much, too
overwhelming, too exciting.
I don't know Like what if yousay something stupid in front of
your idol, like I don't knowwhat's going on for your brain.
But your brain was like this isnot safe, so I got to keep you
home.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I like what you said there.
Can I stop down on that realquick?
You said it's trying to keepyou safe but it's misguided.
That's really powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, keep going.
Sorry, that was just so good.
Yeah, so it's like some of thestrategy is like working with a
scared little kid that is yournervous system where you're like
, hey, buddy, I see what you'retrying to do here, but this
isn't what I need to stay safe,like it's.
I really want to do this thing.
It's okay for me to go out andmeet this person.
I've been looking forward to itfor months, you know, trying to
just like love that scared partof you, rather than like you
(28:20):
are ruining everything again.
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Oh wow, why did you just have to like traumatize me
and be my mother there for likea hot minute?
Nile G.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Wow, that's a weird kind of trauma bond Wow.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, but that.
But right there, what you justsaid, right, that's those voices
in our head, those are thewounds that we hear, which is
like, oh, you're just trying toruin this again.
You know why do you ruineverything, why are you so
difficult?
Like that's usually my kind ofvoices in my head and I can, as
we're speaking, I can see thatin that moment, with the vertigo
, and I was again trying to do,I was trying to meditate, I was
(28:55):
trying to like get rid of it,but I wasn't giving it
compassion, with a vengeance too, though.
I think about this with my sonwhen I like ask him to do
something.
And now that you got methinking about this and it's
like I need him to like put hisclothes away or do something.
Like if I'm hounding him andI'm like, do it, do it.
What are you doing?
Do it now, what are you doing?
And I'm just over top of himthe whole time.
(29:17):
I was like, well, you're justlike, you're an idiot.
Like nobody puts their laundryaway.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
There's memes everywhere on the internet for
it, whole support groups.
Yeah, no, but you're right, Imean, that's actually what I was
going to bring it to is liketalk to yourself the way you
talk to your kid or the wayyou've talked to him when he was
little, especially.
You know, I would never talk tomy little nine-year-old the way
I talk to myself, for a littleface would just, you know, like
(29:54):
no, it's learning how to pause.
For me it's been a lot of justlearning how to pause when I
feel that tension in my body,when I have this like go, go, go
, I have to get everything done,just going like hold on.
I like to teach people to puttheir hand on their heart.
You probably know it activatesthe same part of your brain that
gets activated when you'rebeing hugged, so it just has a
soothing effect, see, listeneverybody.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
This is why, every time, you guys are always like
why don't I put my hand on myheart?
This is why there's aconnection.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
There is a connection , yeah, and so for me it's just
like taking a moment and beinglike you're okay, buddy like you
(30:39):
have a lot going on today.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I like how you talk to yourself I do.
I like how you say buddy, I saysweetheart it.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's like, it's cute, like yeah, but I say buddy to
my son, which we could, we could.
She was like splashing bathwater all over the floor and I
was like dude.
And she was like don't call medude.
And I said why?
I said okay, but why?
I thought it was a gender thing.
And she was like you only saythat when you're mad adult and
someone calls her dude, herwhole body's going to shut down.
It doesn't bother her anymorebecause her mom and I don't yell
(31:14):
.
But it was just like dude.
Could you not do that?
You're making a big mess.
That's the extent of it.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You only do that when you're mad at me, but to her
that was loud.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Anyway, talking to yourself kindly, the way you
would to a little one.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
And hearing yourself.
I love this.
If we speak more on this assaying if our inner little child
, if we try to speak kindly toit and it doesn't respond well
to that and it says don't callme dude or don't call me buddy
or don't call me sweetheart.
Sweetheart sounds patronizing.
Listen to that part, right Likeif we could just all
communicate as well as yourdaughter did in that moment, to
(31:48):
be able to just unabashedly saydon't call me that yeah and then
, instead of getting angry ather, instead of being like it's
not that big a deal.
Yeah, yeah, like it's just aword stupid, like right, like
whatever it is, honestly, butprobably must have been said to
some of us as a kid you listenedto her, you respected her, you
were compassionate with her andyou're like thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
And that's what we could do to our inner child.
If our inner child pushes backagainst anything, I call it my
inner child.
I'm not sure if you'd use adifferent term or whatnot.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, I do that too yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Whatever it is inside of you, would it be?
You know, we all say differentthings.
It could be an attachment wound, it could be a voice, whatever,
everyone has their thing.
But being compassionate tolistening to it, like really
being able to hear what it'strying to tell you, is like I
don't like that, like oh okay,what do you want?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Right, and that's huge.
With this type of work, youknow, like the journaling
process that I've referenced isreally hard work, and sometimes
people look at it and are likehell, no, I'm not doing this.
And sometimes people sort ofdive in too quickly and almost
take on too much, and so it islistening to that voice Like if
the voice says hell, no, thenit's like okay, let's really
(32:59):
look at this.
Is this really too difficult,too scary, too much?
Let's start with that fear.
Just talk about the fear ofjournaling.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
What would you say to someone who can't trust their
body so like this, this idea oflike listening to your body?
Because something just came upfor me as we're talking and I'm
thinking to myself you know Ineed to go for a walk after this
, but my body is like no right.
My body's like go back, take anap, just go to bed.
But if I listened to my bodyall the time, I would be eating
(33:28):
ice cream and napping in my PJsand.
I would have canceled thisappointment with you.
Do you know?
what I mean, so like talk methrough that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, Because chronic pain, chronic symptoms are your
brain sending out amiscommunication, a danger
signal, in error, and sosomething like fatigue.
That can be tricky too, rightCause you're like I feel like I
can't function if I haven'tslept but something like chronic
fatigue.
One of the mind-body strategiesis to help your brain like
(33:55):
evaluate, you know, to kind oflook at, like, look, I got nine
hours of sleep last night.
I actually I don't need to goback to sleep right now because
fatigue is another danger signal.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
So it's okay to actually kind of talk to that
part of you.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, danger signal.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
So it's okay to actually kind of talk to that
part of you and get it to kindof see the react Cause yeah, I
got nine hours last night, but Iam I'm having a chronic fatigue
week.
Is something's happening to meright now, and when that happens
I kind of want to just shutdown.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Right.
And so it's like finding thebalance there right, like it
might be too much for yoursystem for you to just suddenly
go well, I'm not napping becauseI had nine hours, you know,
like we don't want you to be abully to yourself either, but
it's like sort of gentlycoaching yourself, gently saying
like yeah, you slept nine hoursand you want to go back to bed
because you just did this likeemotional interview.
(34:37):
That that was a lot, you know,it's like a lot of processing
and so can I interrupt you forlike a hot minute?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Niall, I bet you my body knew we were going to be
talking about this shit, and soit went I don't want to talk to
him.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
I don't want to talk to him.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
He's going to make me heal.
You just need to hibernate.
Yeah, I am.
I am just a such a shutterdowner when big emotions are
coming up.
So you actually just helped meunderstand something about
myself right there, where I waslike why don't I want to do this
?
Like what's going on, nothingabout you, and I love that you
don't I want to do this.
Like what's going on, nothingabout you, and I love that you
(35:15):
don't take that personal at all,like hopefully, but yeah, so
that that's exactly it.
Just kind of getting curious,right, I often say get curious,
not furious.
Like get curious with your body, with your thoughts.
Why do you want to shut down?
Why do you want to not do this?
And I did.
I was like even before this andI was getting ready and whatnot
.
I was like what's going on?
And it's like I've done a lot.
You know, I had a podcastearlier, I had a client, blah,
blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
No, I hear you.
I was feeling a little nervousbefore this.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I was like this is I don't know, jen, this is like
I've been on a few sort of mindbody podcasts lately but I was
like I don't know what this vibewill be like, what's she and so
with that coming up and then,and just in general, our bodies
can sometimes just be fatigued.
It's got all the past stuffgoing on with it.
The more we level up in ourlives, the more the stuff is
(35:54):
going to come up.
So you bring up such goodpoints there of just
compassionately, curiouslytalking to it and what you said
there was.
You can have a conversationwith you, with it, with yourself
.
It's not, we don't have tolisten to it.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Well, yeah, and something like fatigue.
Again.
I'm like I need my sleep.
That's my number one basic needthat has to be met.
But it might be like on a daylike this for you, you tell
yourself I'm going to take a 20minute nap, I don't need to
sleep for three hours.
But if you just know I'll feelrecharged, I'll feel better if I
do that, it's fine, Go ahead.
You know like you don't have topunish yourself for that, but
(36:29):
you probably don't need to sleepall afternoon.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, and then the place I've gotten to lately is
like a check.
I love this because, as yousaid, just like have that
conversation, like like gothrough your reality of like
okay, well, I got all my sleepin, so I, you know I should be
(36:52):
okay Not should in a bad way,but like same thing, like when
I'm hungry but I've just eaten,I'm like, well, let me check in
with myself, maybe somethingelse is going on, maybe I need
some water, maybe I haveheartburn for me lately, because
I'm getting old, heartburnfeels like.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
I'm hungry.
It's the weirdest thing, it'sso weird, and so this is
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
This is so beautiful and, as we're wrapping up, I
want all the women listening tojust understand that if you have
chronic pain first off, there'sprobably a high chance at least
95% of you do.
You listen to me, you hear metalk, you have attachment wounds
, which means you've had sometrauma in your life, and that's
where chronic pain comes from,right, niall?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Like it just does.
Yeah, I mean, it's basicallyjust like chronic stress and or
trauma stored in your body.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
We should talk about the two books that people should
read if you have any others,but definitely uh, when the body
says no, that is such a goodbook for people to start If they
want to like learn more aboutthis kind of concept.
Also check out the chronic painpodcast, the cure for chronic
pain Great, great podcast, andthe body keeps the score.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Oh, great, although I will caveat that the body keeps
the score is a heavy ass book.
Great, although I will caveatthat the body keeps the score is
a heavy ass book.
It's heavy.
Yeah, he just, he just sorry,like just on a side tangent.
He just just nonchalantly talksabout like childhood abuse as
if it's like the weather.
Yeah, you can tell this is aman that's been in this like
system for a while, because youjust get.
And I'm just listening like onmy walk as I'm sobbing and I'm
(38:06):
just like that's my caveat.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So if you want's my caveat.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
So if you want a gentler one, I think that when
the body says no is a great one.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I think Gabor Mate is a genius.
My only criticism that you willprobably ever hear from me
about him is that he doesn'treally connect those dots.
He tells us why we developchronic pain and symptoms and I
believe that he's right aboutthose things but he doesn't give
a lot of hope for getting outof it.
So that's where when someonelike you is like well, I've read
(38:37):
this stuff, I've done thisstuff, I don't think you've had
somebody really connect the dotsfor you in terms of what
actually is happening in yourbrain when these symptoms show
up.
So my guess would be that ifyou decide to kind of take a
dive into this work, that itwon't take you much to work your
way out of it.
It's like you've done a lot ofthe emotional processing and the
trauma work.
(38:57):
You just need someone to helpyou connect those dots and get
out of those fear cycles.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Tell me where to find someone.
So talk to me.
Let's say, actually, yeah, I'mabsolutely going to go and find
someone.
I think that this is one ofthose things that you know was
perfectly put into my life,Something I've been wanting to
do anyway.
So thank you, Niall, for comingon Hell.
I can work with you if you takeon clients right now, but talk
to me about how to find someone.
So then anyone listening alsoknows how.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, the pain reprocessing therapy website,
prt pain reprocessing therapy.
They have a provider directoryof people that have been trained
so you can find providers youknow in all 50 states and other
countries as well.
There are a couple other places.
I can't remember thisorganization.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
If you want to send them to me later, I can put them
in the show notes later, butthat's why okay, I can start
there, and then do you recommendjust reaching out to people,
like do you interview them, likestuff like that, like how do?
How do clients normally findyou?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
The PRT website, honestly, is where I get a lot
of referrals and then just wordof mouth.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
And then do they meet up.
Is there like a normal thing tohave like a 15 minute discovery
call or something?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, most people will do like a free 20 minute
consult.
Yeah and yes, that's huge.
Like you got to feelcomfortable.
You have to feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
I mean, you know, one of my things that I do in our
work with Integrated AttachmentTheory is I pair up clients and
coaches.
Like this is a big thing that Ilove doing and I same with like
clients, with therapists, andif they come to me but they need
a therapist, I help them tointerview people and go through
it.
Because those of us with traumaas well, it's hard for us to
trust.
It as well it's hard for us totrust, it's hard for us to ask
(40:30):
those questions and we kind ofjust think like, oh, they're the
expert, but it's like dating,you got to find the right one
for you.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yes, you should be able to feel like you can give
feedback and talk openly and say, oh, I don't like the way you
said.
You know like someone that youreally feel comfortable with.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Like the way I was talking to Niall today.
Guys, find someone.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
He didn't get defensive.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
He never took it personal, he didn't get off the
podcast, he wasn't like fuck you, I don't want to deal with this
shit.
I came on here as an expert.
What are?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
you doing?
You'd be like, all right, thatguy has some more attachment,
wounding to heal.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, and therapists and things are human.
So find the person that workswith you.
Now, if someone wants to workwith you specifically, they are
listening and they just adoreyour voice.
They want to like, they're likeI feel safe with him the way
he's handled Jen's feistinessbecause I'm also feisty, I'm
also sassy Like he reallyhandled her and they want to
work with you.
How can they find you?
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yeah, my website healingwithinpsychotherapycom.
So just an importantdistinction between therapists
and coaches.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Very big.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Therapists can only see clients who live in the
states that they're licensed in.
So for me that's Colorado andWisconsin.
But I also do actually have aseparate coaching business
because of the chronic pain workand the IAT work that I've done
.
Those are coaching models.
So for me legally I just haveto have two separate businesses.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Oh great, so someone could reach out to you and still
be coached, or you could belike a consultant for them or
whatnot in terms of that, ohgreat to know that work wouldn't
be reimbursable throughinsurance.
Yeah, it's always the fun partyeah.
Oh, but that's cool, you're inWisconsin.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I'm in Colorado.
But you are licensed to alsowork in Wisconsin, okay, family
in Wisconsin that.
I know need you, so I'm goingto go talk to them real quick
after this.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
This was amazing.
I think this was more for methan for anyone else.
So again, anyone, thank you forcoming along.
I often say I'm honored to be apart of your healing journey.
But like, can I just say I'mhonored right now that I think
all of you just came on myhealing journey, so this was so
powerful.
Is there anything else you'dlike to say before we pop off
here?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
No, just to you.
Just I appreciate yourvulnerability and your openness
and your willingness to dive inand just say wait, this part
sounds like bullshit.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Tell me about this.
Yes, that is Wait.
Bullshit is kind of my jam, so,yes, well, thank you, niall,
for holding space for all ofthis today, and I hope to have
you back sometime.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Thank you, it was fun .
Speaker 1 (42:53):
As we wrap up today's conversation, always remember
that healing is a journey, not adestination, and it is an honor
to be a part of your healingjourney.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we covered today, be
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode
right there, and please rememberto rate, review and subscribe
(43:15):
if you enjoyed today's podcast.
Your feedback means the worldto us and helps others discover
our podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
Hello and welcome to Speak Honest.
I am your host and certifiedrelationship coach, jennifer
Noble.
It has been my passion for overa decade to help women like you
heal what's been holding youback from having the
relationships you deserve.
Are you struggling with arelationship where you can't
seem to voice your emotions,needs and boundaries without
(00:26):
having it blow up in your face?
Then you have found the rightpodcast, my friend.
Get ready for practical tips,empowering truths and honest
conversations.
Now let's dive in.
Hello everyone and welcome backto another episode of Speak
Honest.
I have a special guest and I'mso excited to get started.
But first and foremost, if youare new here, welcome.
(00:47):
I am Jen Noble, I am your go-torelationship coach and here at
Speak Honest we talk about thehard subjects.
So I have on today with meNiall Bondy.
Now I will get going on.
What Niall is gonna be talkingto us about.
But if while you're listeningto our conversation, which us
(01:08):
about, but if while you'relistening to our conversation,
which is all going to be abouttrauma, attachment, wounds,
chronic pain, how we can healthose, if this is something that
you are interested in and youhave been wanting to heal for
yourself, then I highlyrecommend you continue the
conversation with us over in ourfree Facebook community.
You just go right on Facebooktype in Speak Honest it has
these cute little orange heartsnext to it, so you know it's
ours.
Or you can scroll on down tothe show notes and click on the
link and join us there.
But while we are gettingstarted, I want to tell you
about Niall.
Niall is a licensed therapistwho specializes in trauma,
(01:31):
attachment wounds and chronicpain, especially in the LGBTQ
community.
With a deep passion formind-body healing, niall helps
his clients break free from theemotional and physical toll of
past wounds, stress and systemicoppression.
His work blends neuroplasticitymy favorite thing attachment
theory and nervous systemregulation to support true,
(01:52):
lasting transformation.
You can see why I want him onthis show, guys.
This is everything that I talkabout all the time.
This is not just symptom relief.
Whether he's helping someoneuntangle the roots of chronic
pain or he's guiding queercouples through the early stages
of connection, nile's approachis deeply compassionate,
research-informed and rooted inresilience.
He's also the voice which Ithink is important behind the
(02:16):
Queer Resilience newsletter onSubstack which I was actually
able to write a small piece for,where he shares insights, tools
and real talk for healing in aworld that doesn't always make
it easy, isn't that the truth?
And if you do want to learnmore about Niall, we will drop
some links in the show notes.
But you can go tohealingwithinpsychotherapycom or
you can go read his blog overat queerresiliencesubsectcom.
(02:37):
With all of that said, niall,go ahead and say hi, introduce
yourself, share anything Ididn't just share there.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Hello, you covered a lot.
Thank you for that warmwelcoming intro.
I'm just excited to be here totalk about chronic pain,
attachment, healing, all of thatstuff you know, as we were just
talking about.
I'd love talking about thechronic pain world because a lot
of people just don't have theright information about what
(03:03):
causes chronic pain and the waysout of it.
So I love to just be able toshare that a little bit,
hopefully offer some hope topeople.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Tell me a little bit more about your background.
When did you get started withchronic pain?
Is this predominantly what youdo now?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, I got started with this work in 2019 as a
result of my own chronic painjourney.
I hadn't identified that I hadchronic pain, because I had kind
of a strange condition.
I was diagnosed with somethingcalled burning mouth syndrome,
but what that meant for me wasthat it felt like I had paper
cuts on my tongue at all times.
(03:36):
It was inflamed and painful andjust strange Like the doctors
were kind of just like yep,sorry, we don't know what to do
for you, but I thought ofchronic pain as like back pain
or knee pain or fibromyalgia,those sorts of things, so I
never related to being a personwith chronic pain.
But anyway, long story short, afriend of mine one day just
(03:56):
said hey, I think you shouldcheck out this podcast called
the Cure for Chronic Pain, and Idid, and I started doing the
work that she talked about inthat podcast.
Pain and I did, and I starteddoing the work that she talked
about in that podcast.
And it worked for me right away.
I listened to that podcast yeah, yeah, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
And so then I went and gottrained in something called pain
reprocessing therapy, whichreally works with the
neuroplasticity.
(04:17):
The stuff that I got from thecure for chronic pain from
Nicole Sachs is really emotionsbased work, really talking about
how trauma and emotions getstuck in our body and how that
can sometimes manifest as painand symptoms.
And then the pain reprocessingtherapy is like really working
with the brain in terms oftrying to help your brain
(04:38):
reframe something from pain tojust a sensation and then over
time it sort of turns down thevolume on that sensation as you
teach your brain I'm notactually in danger.
It's not dangerous for me to besitting in this chair right now
, or it's not dangerous for meto go for a walk.
Then your brain can learn howto turn the volume down on that
(04:58):
signal.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, this is so fascinating.
Okay, so anyone that knows mystory, I definitely have dealt
with chronic pain.
It is absolutely my identityEver since I had my son 14 years
ago.
I threw my back out when he wasonly like a month old, hanging
laundry, and I've quiteliterally never been the same
since.
I have had pain every day of mylife.
Since that moment, I have beenin ERs.
(05:21):
I've had surgeries, I've hadsteroid injections, I've been on
medicine.
No doctor tells me what's wrongwith me.
There's nothing on the MRI,nothing is going on.
I just live with it.
And I gained a whole bunch ofweight.
I got surgery to lose a wholebunch of weight.
So finally they started takingme more seriously because, hi,
I'm not just like a fat womannow.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Hi, so common.
Yeah, I'm so sorry, right.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
So common Like, oh, you just need to lose weight.
You need to lose weight.
It's like, yeah, no, shit,Sherlock, I've been trying and
like nothing's working.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, and that's not what's causing your pain.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And, I'm sorry, also a good point, but they made you
believe that?
They did because they have noidea.
And so all this stuff and itgets messed up in your head
anyways.
And so trying to figure outthis back pain, degenerative
disc disease, do I or do I nothave fibromyalgia?
This doctor says I do.
This doctor says I don't.
It's a mindfuck, honestly,niall.
I hope that's okay.
I say that, but can you speakon that a little bit at all?
(06:14):
What is that like?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I mean.
First off, that's a classicstory that I hear that there's
nothing on my imaging.
The doctors don't know.
I nothing on my imaging, thedoctors don't know.
I've been in constant pain foryears.
No one can help me, and thereason for that is because
you're trying to treat itthrough your body, but the
problem is actually in yourbrain and your nervous system,
(06:36):
and so as long as you're tryingto treat your body, you're not
getting to that root issue.
So sometimes you'll even seepeople.
I actually just had a friendwho went through a pretty major
surgery to fix some pain, and sopeople go through back
surgeries a lot.
But when the underlying issueis actually more of a mind-body
connection, what happens is thatthe pain pops up somewhere else
later.
And so I have a friend goingthrough this right now who just
(06:59):
had one surgery and then now haspain somewhere else and is like
what's going on?
And so that's where I'm likeokay, I know what's going on.
Are you ready to kind of roll upyour sleeves?
I can steer you in the rightdirection at the very least.
First I just want to say I'msorry.
I think it's such a commonissue.
The doctors don't know.
They don't really believe me.
(07:20):
I've maybe had to try to proveit to people, but nothing that
they suggest works.
So do you mind like doing alittle experiment?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
I'd love it yes.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Okay, yeah, are you in pain right now?
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yes, because I'm sitting with my legs crossed,
often because with one legtucked up to try to help my back
pain.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So yeah, yeah, okay so just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I'd say like a one or two.
You can tell I talk to doctorsa lot because I know my pain
levels and numbers at all times.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah, so not too bad, okay.
So I want you to describe thepain to me using neutral terms.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Okay, this is good.
Pinching, throbbing,uncomfortable, I guess that's
kind of not neutral.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
But that's okay pinching and throbbing mainly
okay, and now I want you to justtake a moment and just just be
with those sensations.
Close your eyes, if that'scomfortable, and and take some
deep breaths and just noticethem.
Just see if you notice anyshifts, any changes.
(08:26):
Just just be an observer towhat's happening in your body.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Interestingly, it's gotten worse.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Okay, yeah, sometimes that happens.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, I know, this is why I try to avoid it, but like
, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
But.
But from my perspective that'sa good sign.
I agree.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Knowing what I know too about the work that I do, I
totally agree.
So this is great.
I want to tell the listenersreal quick.
Can we pull back the curtainreal quick, niall?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I've been doing this work for quite a while too pain,
somatic work.
I worked with Gabor Mate andthings like that with all of
this.
So I obviously have a bit of anunderstanding with what's going
on.
But I also want to get backinto that old body sometimes
that I have, where I feel thatresistance and I feel that pain
and I feel that frustration ofthat girl that used to just hate
this.
So now, you know, I could kindof be like oh yeah, it's there
(09:12):
and it's probably telling methat I need to rest after this,
you know, and I'm like no, no,stop it.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Like yeah, so I want to go.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
I want to do this.
Thank you for doing thisexercise right now, so people
can see this.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Right yeah, so I'm not going to do your own
personal therapy session on air.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Oh, come on, I want a personal therapy session, niall
.
I think we can.
It's your podcast I mean,that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
But why?
This is a good sign to me,because nothing changed, right?
You're still just sitting inthe same chair.
Nothing changed, other than youdrew your attention to this
part of your body and your brainwent oh, you're in danger, like
, turn on the volume.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
I don't want to be here.
That's what's happening.
I'm getting squirmy I want togo lay down.
I want to put an ice pack on myback.
I want to go for a walk becausethat helps loosen up.
I didn't get a chance for awalk today because I had a
client before you.
So now my brain is also going amile a minute.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, and your brain is fixating on like oh, if I
just do this physical thing,that'll fix this.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, keep going, that's good.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
But really you nailed it.
It's like you're uncomfortableabout going inward and being
with what's there, and so yourbrain is like let me take you
out of your internal emotionalprocess.
I like, let me take you out ofyour internal emotional process,
I'm going to distract you withthis physical pain.
Why don't?
It's this walk that you didn'ttake this morning that is
causing this problem.
(10:31):
If you could just get out oftalking to this guy.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
you know, go take your walk.
No, you're hitting me hardright now.
Keep going.
This is this is me.
I often think I didn't doenough.
I ate something bad last night,so now it's flaming me.
You know, I had gluten.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I ate some pasta last night.
Yes, this is so classic.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, and it's still there in my brain as we're
talking.
This is so good.
Yeah, this is going to be youknow what?
Guys Turn this podcast offtoday.
Niall is.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I'm just going to hire Niall for right now he's
just going to talk you throughthis.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That is what goes on in my mind right there, and you
caught it.
You mirrored that back to mebeautifully.
Can you talk more about what'sgoing on there for people?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Most of us grew up fearing our emotions, right Like
it wasn't safe for us toexperience big emotions, and
Gabor Mate talks about thisbeautifully.
He's got just a really shortYouTube video called
Authenticity Versus Attachmentwhere he talks about you know
just, we're wired for attachmentas young people and sometimes
(11:26):
we have to sacrifice our ownauthenticity to maintain that
attachment, and so sometimesthat means hiding who we are,
hiding big emotions, or if we'regrowing up in a chaotic
environment, we might get themessage from our parents we need
you to just not make any waves,which causes us to repress,
causes us to hide, and thenthose big emotions become very
scary to us and so we avoid themat all costs.
(11:48):
We become very busy, we take ona million activities, we numb
out, we avoid, we distract justall of the ways that I could go
off on Like.
I think this is the problem inthe whole world and society, and
you know it really is problemin the whole world and society,
and you know it really is.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So something that's coming up for me right now, then
, is I have been, I've beendealing with this for 14 years
and in my you know healing workthat for me this didn't come
from chronic pain, it came froma broken heart and you know I I
found how you and I know eachother through the integrated
attachment theory and I gotcertified in that and all you
know it's like, oh my God, thisis.
This is why I'm attachmentfocused coach.
Now I'm like, yeah, attachmentstyles You're also, you know,
(12:29):
with attachment wounding and allthat stuff.
So I started healing and Istarted working through my
emotions and I got a compassioninquiry you know practitioner
through the Gabor Mate coursethat I went through and I I went
through some deep healing andI've been through other types of
modalities of healing this andI know how to meditate now and I
(12:51):
know again, you can hear metalking about doing.
I hear it.
I hear it as soon as it'scoming up.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
And I still have pain , it still runs my life, it
still ruins my life.
I just I want to be honestabout this.
It means I can't go and go on awalk.
I can barely go to Disneylandwithout I have to get a scooter.
I can't stand in line.
Yeah, I have to get adisability pass or else I can't
sit in my class.
I last fall.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I missed out on two weeks of class.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Because I couldn't move, and this coming from
somebody who thinks she knowsher shit.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
So talk me through that I'm really glad you're
bringing this up, because Ithink, like the people who are a
little bit on board with themind body idea are like, yeah,
but I've done the trauma workand I still have pain.
And the key thing here is thatthere's nobody's bridging the
gap, for you have to reallyunderstand the mechanism of the
pain and what your brain isdoing in real time, because it's
(13:49):
like your brain has developedthese subtle strategies that
it's been using for decades totry to keep you safe, and so you
have to, like, just figure outoh, that's the way my brain is
trying to keep me safe.
That's a false signal that mybrain is sending out, but you
have to be aware of it to beable to work your way out of it.
Just really getting into thespecifics of you know for you,
(14:10):
if are you in pain, like is itreally constant or is it at
certain times of the day?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It gets worse for doing certain things.
There's a constant low level,hum kind of at all times, mainly
my lower back, but then, like,like right now, I'm having a
neck problem.
This is why, like, I've beendiagnosed with fibromyalgia
because, like you said, it'lljump.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah, it bounces, yeah.
So sometimes when I have peopledo what we were doing before,
it's called somatic tracking,where you're just tuning into
the sensations and trying toreframe it.
And the reason I had you useneutral terms is just because
when we say things like, oh,it's excruciating, it's the
worst pain ever, you're likesolidifying to your brain this
is terrifying, this is awful,get me out of it.
(14:52):
And then your brain is like, oh, you're in danger, I'm going to
send out a louder danger signaland you like stumbled for like
a hot minute of like what is aneutral term to describe this?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
which really showcased to me some of the work
I still need to be doing aroundthis of like, oh, I haven't
actually done a neutral term ina while, but what a beautiful
way to say that.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Right.
So a lot of the work I do withpeople is teaching them how to
recognize when they're in a fearcycle and then how to get out
of it.
So like if you have the thoughtevery time you stand up of like
, oh, this is going to make mypain worse, you know, just
starting to go like, okay,sometimes my pain increases when
I stand up, but I know thatit's safe for me to stand up and
that's okay for me to do.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So something just came up then for me right there.
This is good Can?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
we just keep doing this Like I want to listen to my
body, my somatic like okay,fine, more useful than me.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
This is like one of those unique situations where
you get this like incrediblywell-adapted like client in
front of you, right now.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
My body just pushed back against that.
My stomach flopped and it saidbut I'm not safe.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yep, so talk me through that.
Why isn't it safe for you tostand up?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Because my back might go out.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And what does that mean when your back goes out?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It means like it's almost like a Charlie horse of
my muscles and my lower back andthen if it goes out, I'm, I'm
fucked Like I can't move, Ican't walk.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, how often does that happen for you just from
standing up?
Speaker 1 (16:18):
In the last 14 years.
It's probably like apredominant way in which my back
goes out, like either bendingdown to get up or like getting
up.
There's like this intense pain.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, no, I'm glad you're bringing this up, because
sometimes we have to sort ofwork with different layers.
Something like extreme muscletightness is very much in the
mind-body world, but somethinglike somatic tracking isn't
going to like loosen that up foryou immediately, and so that's
where we would get more intolearning how to release
repressed emotions.
Journaling is kind of the topway to do that, and that's the
(16:48):
stuff where, when I firstencountered this work, I was
like this sounds like bullshit,but I will do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I feel that deeply and sometimes it and here's the
problem and actually we get thisanywhere right, because even in
like our attachment world,there's a lot of people that
throw stupid shit out there.
That's not real, like you know,like no, not all avoidance are
villains that want to break yourheart at all the time, you know
.
And and no, not all anxiouslyattached women are like these
needy, clingy, crying whinersall the time.
(17:14):
So in the chronic pain world,there are a lot of unfortunate
rhetoric out there of just likeoh well, your pain is just in
your head and like away, and soif you're still having pain,
then you just haven't workedthrough it.
But can I tell you, to me itfeels blame it's dismissive and
blamey yeah thank you.
(17:34):
So I think that's the thing thatgets me stuck sometimes, as I'm
like, but I have done the workand I know my clients have done
the work well, yeah, it's, thework is just a little different.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It's really hard for me to explain to you why, and
it's like for whatever reason.
When people get into thisspecific journaling process and
just start to learn how to lookat what's happening in their
body with a different lens, thenthey start to go oh, I realized
that, like at age seven, Iinternalized this about myself
(18:05):
and I kept this emotion in, andyou know, it's just I don't know
.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
It's hard to describe .
No, it is.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
But people just start to make these connections in a
different way and so, like backto your back pain, like if you
were my client, I would want toreally get into, like, what was
happening the year leading up toyour son's birth and what was
happening the year leading up toyour son's birth and what was
happening around that time thatwas so stressful to you.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
I have actually tracked it back because I've
done some of those journalingprocesses and things like that,
and that's the interesting partfor me.
It goes back to like my myfamily trauma, like specifically
with my siblings, andspecifically like let's get real
Cause, why not Right?
Like the sexual trauma thathappened to me as a kid and so,
um, and the trapped feeling ofwhat that is, and so I think
what was happening is when myback goes out.
(18:49):
So this is what I've workedwith with a practitioner.
I was working with, um, buttell me what you think if this
sounds up your alley.
Do you know what I mean?
like if this is like okay,tracking, it's this weird way in
which I trap myself.
So I have a big wounding around, feeling trapped.
I am trapped.
It makes total sense.
A lot of people with sexualtrauma have that wounding.
Yeah, makes sense.
And what happens is in thesemoments leading up to, you know,
(19:12):
giving birth, I think I wasfeeling I was, oh, I was a
disaster.
Niall, I've also been diagnosedwith borderline, which I don't
even know what you know, I don'tcare Like it's just emotional
dysregulation.
It's high.
I was traumatized as a kid andI'm a woman, so that's what
they're going to diagnose me as.
But I was a disaster pregnant,all my hormones everywhere.
I was postpartum depressionlike crazy for the first two
(19:32):
years of my son's life and Ijust trapped myself.
And so what happens is when myback goes out, I get attention,
I get help and I get to rest,and so these started coming up.
So it makes sense, like in thefall when I'm back at school and
I had a lot going on I think Ijust signed my book publishing
(19:53):
deal, right, like things weregoing really well with me my
back went out for two weeks, butit's still fucking pisses me
off because I have a lot to do.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, Well, right, and so I mean you know, through
some of the attachment work,like part of it is about
teaching your system.
I don't need to get my needsmet in this way anymore, and
it's actually not a good way forme to get my needs met Again.
If we were working together, Ithink it would be a combination
of, like the emotions based work, I promise you.
I thought that I didn't need todo that work either, and as
(20:22):
soon as I started doing it I waslike, oh boy oh boy.
I had repressed a lot Like you,just don't even know because
it's repressed.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Good point and we still need to keep doing it
right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah Well, because also, like things have happened
to you since you've done thetrauma work, you know it's not
like we just resolve our shitand then life is good.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's not like my familynever randomly reaches out to me
or like I see something onFacebook that triggers me.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah yeah, yeah, right, all of those things.
And it's really about learninghow to discharge stress from
your body in a different way.
So it's not like if you work 60hours a week, you have to work
30 hours a week.
It's not that it's likelearning how to get the stress
of a 60 hour work week out ofyour body, like out of your
(21:07):
psyche.
Sometimes it's just likechanging your thought patterns,
like how you approach asituation.
Sometimes it's like dischargingthe stress at the end of the
day.
If you had a shitty interactionwith a coworker, like letting
that energy out through thejournaling so that next day when
you have to show up at work youdon't have that like dreading
kind of feeling about thatcoworker.
(21:28):
You've like let it out and it'sdone and you're ready to move
on.
So it's just like a lot oflittle strategies of like okay,
I talk to people a lot aboutlearning how to live your life
just more from a place of ease.
So when you talk about like thesort of obsession to fix the
back pain that actually makes itworse because you're telling
your nervous system like I can'tlive until we solve this
(21:52):
problem, basically, like I can'tbe okay until this is solved,
and your brain's like, oh,you're in danger, I know what to
do, and so it's like you guysare just miscommunicating.
So you know it's.
It's like being able to go okay, I'm going to try this new
strategy, even though I'm notsure that it's going to work,
because what do I have to lose?
But not like this has to workor else, or it's like getting
(22:15):
out of that kind of energy.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I love how wrapped around my brain gets in terms of
all of this stuff that you'resaying, because a part of my
brain is also like yeah, but I'msuch a yeah, I'm such a yeah,
but yeah, but isn't the act ofgoing and finding, say like a
chronic pain specialisttherapist, me trying to get rid
of the back pain?
So then am I not justperpetuating the cycle?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yes, and I'm going to give that a yes and right, like
, because if, if, like thatwould maybe be the first step
for you is just like okay, we'rejust going to try a new thing
and we're going to see how itgoes, rather than this life and
death Like, this has to work orelse.
Or, if this doesn't work, thenI'm going to try this and this
and this and this, just goingokay, I've been in back pain for
(22:59):
14 years, so a few more monthsis not going to kill me.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I like to say this to my clients all the time
Everything's an experiment inlife.
So like even now I can hear itright.
It's like, like I said, theseare my first initial reactions,
just so anyone out there doesn'tfeel alone.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, no, I love it Again.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
it's more useful to people because the listeners
would be like, yeah, but yeah,but yeah, I always tell the
girls in my programs bring meyour yeah, but yeah, but yeah, I
always tell the girls in myprograms, bring me your yeah,
but like when we're talkingabout reprogramming and like
refiring like our neuronstogether, and they'll be like
yeah, but and I'm like I love it, I need to talk about.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It means we're engaged, right.
You're not just people pleasingme, which is actually part of
chronic pain.
Most of us are perfectionistsand people pleasers because we
learn to be that way for peopleto like us or to stay safe.
And it's this sense of like.
If I'm not these things, thenyou won't like me or I'll get
rejected or abandoned.
(23:53):
And it's more fear, right.
And so part of the deepest workis getting to a place where,
like, you're really okay withyou and you know that you've got
your back, even if somebodythinks you're a weirdo or
whatever.
Or you know, like all thethings that we worry about, that
when we zoom out, we're like,actually, who cares if my
colleagues think I'm wearing aweird outfit, it doesn't matter,
(24:14):
you know it doesn't actuallymatter.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I know and you like, when you get yourself into that
like reality of it, it's likewhat's the worst thing that
could actually happen.
I love, I love future fearingand following it out to get them
to really see like, okay, andthen what will happen.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
And then what, and then what, and then what so?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I keep going there.
But let me ask you this, justto transition into more of the
how, because I love what you'retalking about and, genuinely
speaking, even right now I'mthinking I need more work.
I have more work to do.
I have.
I can tell I still have traumaand triggers around my family
Like they still piss me off.
I, you know I've gotten to agood place where I can kind of
be around them.
(24:51):
But there are still times whereI'll cry Like and that's good.
Don't get me wrong.
I know that that doesn't meanI'm like never going to heal,
but it means I can tell there'ssomething still going on inside
of me.
I get vertigo, I get this neckpain, I get this lower back pain
.
All of these ideas are going on.
I'm thinking, okay, that's mybody telling me something's up.
Also, I do just, you know,agree that like this could be
(25:12):
there forever and that's okay,it's just going to be my
constant.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
All of those symptoms are fit into the mind body
world, but but again.
So instead of like what's wrongwith my body, I would encourage
you to just think about what ismy body telling me.
What is my body telling me?
Why does my body think I'munsafe right now, you know,
because vertigo same thing.
It's like your body's like youbetter lay down, you better get
back in bed.
But why?
Why does your body think thatyou shouldn't leave the house
(25:36):
during those times?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Just like on a side tangent vertigo was the worst
thing and it happened to me.
This is also just like a sidething and I think I hear this a
lot with clients.
It happens when they startjoining my program Out of
nowhere.
Their life blows up.
So I started yoga and when Iwas doing yoga I got a vertigo
attack and I threw up in theyoga studio.
Sorry, this is not funny, no itis ridiculous, I know, and all
(26:00):
I could think about is likehumiliating I mean I'm
embarrassed, I'm humiliated.
I'm trying to better my life.
Like this happens a lot, youknow, and I'm like, and I get in
this like mindset and I'm like,oh fuck it.
Like I'm supposed to bebettering my life and now you
won't even let me.
And I see this happen.
There was like there was aclient recently just signed up
for my program.
It's the relationship rebootprogram.
It's so beautiful.
She just came in and out ofnowhere, her car breaks down,
(26:23):
Her mom gets sick and her dogneeds to go to the vet, are you
kidding me right?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
now yeah, so you're not talking like there's a
breakup.
Suddenly I was like, well, thatwould make sense, but yeah, no,
just weird stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
No, it's like sometimes that happens in life
and something I've workedthrough is like just realizing
like okay, shit's going tohappen.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, right, and embodying more of that, Because
even in that there's like this Iwas trying to get better.
There's so much pressure andstress and anger in the.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I'm trying to relax, I'm trying to do yoga here and
be mindful, damn it.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Right, right, and so it's like being able to go.
Okay, I wanted to relax andthis is what was thrown my way
today and sucks, and that was atough one for me.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
It took me out of like going to this concert where
I'd spent a lot of money on itto meet Anthony Rapp, because
rent is like my favorite thingin the whole wide world and so I
was going to go get a chance tomeet him.
But I woke up that morning andI couldn't move, Like the whole
world was spinning, and in thosemoments I'm like this isn't
trying to tell me anything, it'sjust trying to attack me.
Do you hear that Like?
(27:27):
Do you hear my brain?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
thinking that.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I know it's not true, but it's what I was feeling.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Sure, yeah Well, and it's your brain trying to keep
you safe, but it's misguided,right.
It's like your brain is likethis is too much, too
overwhelming, too exciting.
I don't know Like what if yousay something stupid in front of
your idol, like I don't knowwhat's going on for your brain.
But your brain was like this isnot safe, so I got to keep you
home.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I like what you said there.
Can I stop down on that realquick?
You said it's trying to keepyou safe but it's misguided.
That's really powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, keep going.
Sorry, that was just so good.
Yeah, so it's like some of thestrategy is like working with a
scared little kid that is yournervous system where you're like
, hey, buddy, I see what you'retrying to do here, but this
isn't what I need to stay safe,like it's.
I really want to do this thing.
It's okay for me to go out andmeet this person.
I've been looking forward to itfor months, you know, trying to
just like love that scared partof you, rather than like you
(28:20):
are ruining everything again.
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Oh wow, why did you just have to like traumatize me
and be my mother there for likea hot minute?
Nile G.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Wow, that's a weird kind of trauma bond Wow.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, but that.
But right there, what you justsaid, right, that's those voices
in our head, those are thewounds that we hear, which is
like, oh, you're just trying toruin this again.
You know why do you ruineverything, why are you so
difficult?
Like that's usually my kind ofvoices in my head and I can, as
we're speaking, I can see thatin that moment, with the vertigo
, and I was again trying to do,I was trying to meditate, I was
(28:55):
trying to like get rid of it,but I wasn't giving it
compassion, with a vengeance too, though.
I think about this with my sonwhen I like ask him to do
something.
And now that you got methinking about this and it's
like I need him to like put hisclothes away or do something.
Like if I'm hounding him andI'm like, do it, do it.
What are you doing?
Do it now, what are you doing?
And I'm just over top of himthe whole time.
(29:17):
I was like, well, you're justlike, you're an idiot.
Like nobody puts their laundryaway.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
There's memes everywhere on the internet for
it, whole support groups.
Yeah, no, but you're right, Imean, that's actually what I was
going to bring it to is liketalk to yourself the way you
talk to your kid or the wayyou've talked to him when he was
little, especially.
You know, I would never talk tomy little nine-year-old the way
I talk to myself, for a littleface would just, you know, like
(29:54):
no, it's learning how to pause.
For me it's been a lot of justlearning how to pause when I
feel that tension in my body,when I have this like go, go, go
, I have to get everything done,just going like hold on.
I like to teach people to puttheir hand on their heart.
You probably know it activatesthe same part of your brain that
gets activated when you'rebeing hugged, so it just has a
soothing effect, see, listeneverybody.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
This is why, every time, you guys are always like
why don't I put my hand on myheart?
This is why there's aconnection.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
There is a connection , yeah, and so for me it's just
like taking a moment and beinglike you're okay, buddy like you
(30:39):
have a lot going on today.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I like how you talk to yourself I do.
I like how you say buddy, I saysweetheart it.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It's like, it's cute, like yeah, but I say buddy to
my son, which we could, we could.
She was like splashing bathwater all over the floor and I
was like dude.
And she was like don't call medude.
And I said why?
I said okay, but why?
I thought it was a gender thing.
And she was like you only saythat when you're mad adult and
someone calls her dude, herwhole body's going to shut down.
It doesn't bother her anymorebecause her mom and I don't yell
(31:14):
.
But it was just like dude.
Could you not do that?
You're making a big mess.
That's the extent of it.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You only do that when you're mad at me, but to her
that was loud.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Anyway, talking to yourself kindly, the way you
would to a little one.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
And hearing yourself.
I love this.
If we speak more on this assaying if our inner little child
, if we try to speak kindly toit and it doesn't respond well
to that and it says don't callme dude or don't call me buddy
or don't call me sweetheart.
Sweetheart sounds patronizing.
Listen to that part, right Likeif we could just all
communicate as well as yourdaughter did in that moment, to
(31:48):
be able to just unabashedly saydon't call me that yeah and then
, instead of getting angry ather, instead of being like it's
not that big a deal.
Yeah, yeah, like it's just aword stupid, like right, like
whatever it is, honestly, butprobably must have been said to
some of us as a kid you listenedto her, you respected her, you
were compassionate with her andyou're like thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
And that's what we could do to our inner child.
If our inner child pushes backagainst anything, I call it my
inner child.
I'm not sure if you'd use adifferent term or whatnot.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, I do that too yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Whatever it is inside of you, would it be?
You know, we all say differentthings.
It could be an attachment wound, it could be a voice, whatever,
everyone has their thing.
But being compassionate tolistening to it, like really
being able to hear what it'strying to tell you, is like I
don't like that, like oh okay,what do you want?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Right, and that's huge.
With this type of work, youknow, like the journaling
process that I've referenced isreally hard work, and sometimes
people look at it and are likehell, no, I'm not doing this.
And sometimes people sort ofdive in too quickly and almost
take on too much, and so it islistening to that voice Like if
the voice says hell, no, thenit's like okay, let's really
(32:59):
look at this.
Is this really too difficult,too scary, too much?
Let's start with that fear.
Just talk about the fear ofjournaling.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
What would you say to someone who can't trust their
body so like this, this idea oflike listening to your body?
Because something just came upfor me as we're talking and I'm
thinking to myself you know Ineed to go for a walk after this
, but my body is like no right.
My body's like go back, take anap, just go to bed.
But if I listened to my bodyall the time, I would be eating
(33:28):
ice cream and napping in my PJsand.
I would have canceled thisappointment with you.
Do you know?
what I mean, so like talk methrough that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, Because chronic pain, chronic symptoms are your
brain sending out amiscommunication, a danger
signal, in error, and sosomething like fatigue.
That can be tricky too, rightCause you're like I feel like I
can't function if I haven'tslept but something like chronic
fatigue.
One of the mind-body strategiesis to help your brain like
(33:55):
evaluate, you know, to kind oflook at, like, look, I got nine
hours of sleep last night.
I actually I don't need to goback to sleep right now because
fatigue is another danger signal.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
So it's okay to actually kind of talk to that
part of you.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, danger signal.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
So it's okay to actually kind of talk to that
part of you and get it to kindof see the react Cause yeah, I
got nine hours last night, but Iam I'm having a chronic fatigue
week.
Is something's happening to meright now, and when that happens
I kind of want to just shutdown.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Right.
And so it's like finding thebalance there right, like it
might be too much for yoursystem for you to just suddenly
go well, I'm not napping becauseI had nine hours, you know,
like we don't want you to be abully to yourself either, but
it's like sort of gentlycoaching yourself, gently saying
like yeah, you slept nine hoursand you want to go back to bed
because you just did this likeemotional interview.
(34:37):
That that was a lot, you know,it's like a lot of processing
and so can I interrupt you forlike a hot minute?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Niall, I bet you my body knew we were going to be
talking about this shit, and soit went I don't want to talk to
him.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
I don't want to talk to him.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
He's going to make me heal.
You just need to hibernate.
Yeah, I am.
I am just a such a shutterdowner when big emotions are
coming up.
So you actually just helped meunderstand something about
myself right there, where I waslike why don't I want to do this
?
Like what's going on, nothingabout you, and I love that you
don't I want to do this.
Like what's going on, nothingabout you, and I love that you
(35:15):
don't take that personal at all,like hopefully, but yeah, so
that that's exactly it.
Just kind of getting curious,right, I often say get curious,
not furious.
Like get curious with your body, with your thoughts.
Why do you want to shut down?
Why do you want to not do this?
And I did.
I was like even before this andI was getting ready and whatnot
.
I was like what's going on?
And it's like I've done a lot.
You know, I had a podcastearlier, I had a client, blah,
blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
No, I hear you.
I was feeling a little nervousbefore this.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I was like this is I don't know, jen, this is like
I've been on a few sort of mindbody podcasts lately but I was
like I don't know what this vibewill be like, what's she and so
with that coming up and then,and just in general, our bodies
can sometimes just be fatigued.
It's got all the past stuffgoing on with it.
The more we level up in ourlives, the more the stuff is
(35:54):
going to come up.
So you bring up such goodpoints there of just
compassionately, curiouslytalking to it and what you said
there was.
You can have a conversationwith you, with it, with yourself
.
It's not, we don't have tolisten to it.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Well, yeah, and something like fatigue.
Again.
I'm like I need my sleep.
That's my number one basic needthat has to be met.
But it might be like on a daylike this for you, you tell
yourself I'm going to take a 20minute nap, I don't need to
sleep for three hours.
But if you just know I'll feelrecharged, I'll feel better if I
do that, it's fine, Go ahead.
You know like you don't have topunish yourself for that, but
(36:29):
you probably don't need to sleepall afternoon.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, and then the place I've gotten to lately is
like a check.
I love this because, as yousaid, just like have that
conversation, like like gothrough your reality of like
okay, well, I got all my sleepin, so I, you know I should be
(36:52):
okay Not should in a bad way,but like same thing, like when
I'm hungry but I've just eaten,I'm like, well, let me check in
with myself, maybe somethingelse is going on, maybe I need
some water, maybe I haveheartburn for me lately, because
I'm getting old, heartburnfeels like.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
I'm hungry.
It's the weirdest thing, it'sso weird, and so this is
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
This is so beautiful and, as we're wrapping up, I
want all the women listening tojust understand that if you have
chronic pain first off, there'sprobably a high chance at least
95% of you do.
You listen to me, you hear metalk, you have attachment wounds
, which means you've had sometrauma in your life, and that's
where chronic pain comes from,right, niall?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Like it just does.
Yeah, I mean, it's basicallyjust like chronic stress and or
trauma stored in your body.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
We should talk about the two books that people should
read if you have any others,but definitely uh, when the body
says no, that is such a goodbook for people to start If they
want to like learn more aboutthis kind of concept.
Also check out the chronic painpodcast, the cure for chronic
pain Great, great podcast, andthe body keeps the score.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Oh, great, although I will caveat that the body keeps
the score is a heavy ass book.
Great, although I will caveatthat the body keeps the score is
a heavy ass book.
It's heavy.
Yeah, he just, he just sorry,like just on a side tangent.
He just just nonchalantly talksabout like childhood abuse as
if it's like the weather.
Yeah, you can tell this is aman that's been in this like
system for a while, because youjust get.
And I'm just listening like onmy walk as I'm sobbing and I'm
(38:06):
just like that's my caveat.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So if you want's my caveat.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
So if you want a gentler one, I think that when
the body says no is a great one.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I think Gabor Mate is a genius.
My only criticism that you willprobably ever hear from me
about him is that he doesn'treally connect those dots.
He tells us why we developchronic pain and symptoms and I
believe that he's right aboutthose things but he doesn't give
a lot of hope for getting outof it.
So that's where when someonelike you is like well, I've read
(38:37):
this stuff, I've done thisstuff, I don't think you've had
somebody really connect the dotsfor you in terms of what
actually is happening in yourbrain when these symptoms show
up.
So my guess would be that ifyou decide to kind of take a
dive into this work, that itwon't take you much to work your
way out of it.
It's like you've done a lot ofthe emotional processing and the
trauma work.
(38:57):
You just need someone to helpyou connect those dots and get
out of those fear cycles.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Tell me where to find someone.
So talk to me.
Let's say, actually, yeah, I'mabsolutely going to go and find
someone.
I think that this is one ofthose things that you know was
perfectly put into my life,Something I've been wanting to
do anyway.
So thank you, Niall, for comingon Hell.
I can work with you if you takeon clients right now, but talk
to me about how to find someone.
So then anyone listening alsoknows how.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, the pain reprocessing therapy website,
prt pain reprocessing therapy.
They have a provider directoryof people that have been trained
so you can find providers youknow in all 50 states and other
countries as well.
There are a couple other places.
I can't remember thisorganization.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
If you want to send them to me later, I can put them
in the show notes later, butthat's why okay, I can start
there, and then do you recommendjust reaching out to people,
like do you interview them, likestuff like that, like how do?
How do clients normally findyou?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
The PRT website, honestly, is where I get a lot
of referrals and then just wordof mouth.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
And then do they meet up.
Is there like a normal thing tohave like a 15 minute discovery
call or something?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, most people will do like a free 20 minute
consult.
Yeah and yes, that's huge.
Like you got to feelcomfortable.
You have to feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
I mean, you know, one of my things that I do in our
work with Integrated AttachmentTheory is I pair up clients and
coaches.
Like this is a big thing that Ilove doing and I same with like
clients, with therapists, andif they come to me but they need
a therapist, I help them tointerview people and go through
it.
Because those of us with traumaas well, it's hard for us to
trust.
It as well it's hard for us totrust, it's hard for us to ask
(40:30):
those questions and we kind ofjust think like, oh, they're the
expert, but it's like dating,you got to find the right one
for you.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yes, you should be able to feel like you can give
feedback and talk openly and say, oh, I don't like the way you
said.
You know like someone that youreally feel comfortable with.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Like the way I was talking to Niall today.
Guys, find someone.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
He didn't get defensive.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
He never took it personal, he didn't get off the
podcast, he wasn't like fuck you, I don't want to deal with this
shit.
I came on here as an expert.
What are?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
you doing?
You'd be like, all right, thatguy has some more attachment,
wounding to heal.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, and therapists and things are human.
So find the person that workswith you.
Now, if someone wants to workwith you specifically, they are
listening and they just adoreyour voice.
They want to like, they're likeI feel safe with him the way
he's handled Jen's feistinessbecause I'm also feisty, I'm
also sassy Like he reallyhandled her and they want to
work with you.
How can they find you?
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yeah, my website healingwithinpsychotherapycom.
So just an importantdistinction between therapists
and coaches.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Very big.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Therapists can only see clients who live in the
states that they're licensed in.
So for me that's Colorado andWisconsin.
But I also do actually have aseparate coaching business
because of the chronic pain workand the IAT work that I've done
.
Those are coaching models.
So for me legally I just haveto have two separate businesses.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Oh great, so someone could reach out to you and still
be coached, or you could belike a consultant for them or
whatnot in terms of that, ohgreat to know that work wouldn't
be reimbursable throughinsurance.
Yeah, it's always the fun partyeah.
Oh, but that's cool, you're inWisconsin.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I'm in Colorado.
But you are licensed to alsowork in Wisconsin, okay, family
in Wisconsin that.
I know need you, so I'm goingto go talk to them real quick
after this.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
This was amazing.
I think this was more for methan for anyone else.
So again, anyone, thank you forcoming along.
I often say I'm honored to be apart of your healing journey.
But like, can I just say I'mhonored right now that I think
all of you just came on myhealing journey, so this was so
powerful.
Is there anything else you'dlike to say before we pop off
here?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
No, just to you.
Just I appreciate yourvulnerability and your openness
and your willingness to dive inand just say wait, this part
sounds like bullshit.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Tell me about this.
Yes, that is Wait.
Bullshit is kind of my jam, so,yes, well, thank you, niall,
for holding space for all ofthis today, and I hope to have
you back sometime.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Thank you, it was fun .
Speaker 1 (42:53):
As we wrap up today's conversation, always remember
that healing is a journey, not adestination, and it is an honor
to be a part of your healingjourney.
If you want to dig deeper intothe topics we covered today, be
sure to head over to our shownotes, where you can find all of
the valuable informationmentioned in today's episode
right there, and please rememberto rate, review and subscribe
(43:15):
if you enjoyed today's podcast.
Your feedback means the worldto us and helps others discover
our podcast.
Until next time, remember tospeak up and speak honest.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.