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June 30, 2025 58 mins

In this episode, Jules and Michele sit down with relationship coach Lauren Hayes to explore the world of ethical non-monogamy—sexuality, clarity, and companionship beyond monogamy. Lauren pulls back the curtain on how she and her husband transitioned into the lifestyle, emphasizing communication, emotional maturity, and the theme that “pleasure is a practice.” This spicy chat dives into handling jealousy, setting boundaries, preserving emotional sovereignty, and why many enter non-monogamy not to repair, but to enhance an already strong connection.

Questions Answered in This Episode:

  • What is ethical non-monogamy (ENM), and how does it differ from swinging or polyamory?
  • How did Lauren and her husband begin exploring ENM, and what prompted the shift?
  • What groundwork—like communication and trust—is essential before starting this journey?
  • How do couples handle jealousy and emotional complexity along the way?
  • What’s the difference between “full swap” and “soft swap,” and how do health and safety factor in?
  • How do emotional sovereignty and self-awareness support healthy non-monogamous relationships?
  • What role do agreements, boundaries, and ongoing consent play in navigating ENM successfully?
  • How do families, social circles, and stigma impact those who enter the lifestyle?
  • Why do many spouses actually grow closer and feel more empowered through non-monogamy?
  • How does viewing ‌pleasure as a practice apply not only to sex, but to life and midlife well-being?

Are you ready to take your "spiciness" to the next level?!

Connect with Julee & Michele on Instagram @spicy_midlife_women and send a DM about what resonated most during this episode so they can encourage you with steps forward in your own life.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, hey everyone.
This is Jules and Michelle here, two spicy midlife women
sharing our real life storiesand having no BS conversations
with all of you, right, Michelle?

Speaker 2 (00:10):
That is right.
We're here to help you, midlifewomen, redefine relationships,
ditch toxic cycles and reclaimyour power, one episode at a
time and we have a treat for youtoday.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
There is an ethical non-monogamy coach.
Her name is Lauren Hayes and wesaved this interview especially
for you because we felt likethis is a great topic Super
spicy, super spicy, yeah and wehope you enjoy.
Today we have a very specialguest, lauren Hayes, on with us,
and Lauren is an ethicalnon-monogamous coach and she has

(00:45):
.
I have a little snippet here.
I want to make sure I get itall, so I'm going to read it.
Okay, yeah, make sure I get itall right.
Lauren's a relationship coachspecializing in supporting
ethically non-monogamous couples, also known as E&M, including
swingers and the E&M Curious.
She's trained in both life andrelationship coaching.
She assists couples innavigating and engaging in the

(01:06):
swinging and non-monogamouslifestyle community in the
healthiest ways.
She brings personal experienceto her coaching, having been
married for 19 plus years andE&M Swinger for the last six
years five or six years, I guessnow.
So, anyway, welcome and thankyou so much for being here with
us today.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, thanks for having me, and yeah, I guess now
.
So anyway, welcome and thankyou so much for being here with
us today.
Yeah, thanks for having me, andyeah.
I realized I didn't update mywebsite.
I've married 20 years now andwe've been swinging for six.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
So, yeah, okay, so you had just had an anniversary,
huh, yeah, yeah.
So that was some of the thingsthat we were talking about, you
know, being in a monogamousrelationship to start with, and
then the transition that youboth made into the lifestyle
that you now are practicing, andjust we're so curious about
just how those things startedfor you and your husband.

(01:56):
So if you want to just getstarted with that and then we
can get into some of the otherquestions, maybe that we're
running across Sure yeah.
I'm very curious.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
We need to dive in and I want to know how this like
transitioned for you.
Yeah yeah.
So it's kind of a two-partstory and you're you'll know
some of this because you readthe book.
But but the first part was justthat there was a friend of a
friend, a guy friend that keptand I kept meeting him at

(02:24):
parties and stuff and we justalways really connected.
And he said one time he'd liketo get to know me better and I
was like me too.
So we went out for coffee and Iwas married.
My husband was a little curiousabout why I was going, but I've
always had guy friends so Ireally didn't even think twice
about it.
And then at that coffee heasked me if we had read a book

(02:45):
called Sex at Dawn, which is byChris Ryan.
Christopher Ryan and it's ascientific book that kind of
just questions the narrativethat our culture has on monogamy
.
It came out that he and hispartner were polyamorous and he
was hoping or asking if myhusband and I were polyamorous.
And he was hoping or asking ifmy husband and I were
polyamorous because he wanted toreally get me to know me better

(03:08):
.
So I said no, you know we'renot, and but I am fascinated
Like tell me everything.
Like I just found that kind oflike you guys are today.
I was just very curious.
So we talked for a long timeabout it.
I went home, told my husbandyou know what the thing was, and
he was not surprised that hewas actually hitting on me.
And also he was so curious hewas like, okay, tell me

(03:31):
everything.
So we, you know, neither one ofus were interested in doing it
at that time or in polyamory,but it was just fascinating to
both of us.
The other thing that I did is,for about a week or two, this
excitement of having somebodyelse really hit on me like that
and show interest in me Greatsex.
Yeah, we had.

(03:51):
Yeah, so we always had greatsex and for like two weeks it
was just kind of off the charts,like there was just like a
little extra energy in there, so.
But we had small children atthe time.
You know, we were in that phasewe're just kind of tired and
didn't have enough time for eachother, let alone anyone else.
So then fast forward, maybe sixor seven years, I'm not exactly

(04:14):
sure about that.
But then my husband justrandomly brought up one night.
I was walking through thebedroom.
He's like, you know, I feellike there's something more.
And somehow I knew he wastalking about our relationship
and my heart started beating,you know, very fast.
And I said so you want agirlfriend?
And he said no, I don't think Iwant a girlfriend.
I just I do feel like there'ssomething else out there.

(04:37):
And I was like I don't knowwhat you're saying to me right
now.
Yeah, it's mean.
And he said I don't know.
And actually what I know now isthat was a kind of good that he
didn't know what it meant.
He can get into that in alittle bit, but it became kind
of an exploration.
Of course, a lot of stuff cameup for me like are we not happy?

(04:58):
Like I thought we were happy,like this is really confusing to
me.
And you know, am I not enough?
Is this something?
I'm not fulfilling my, you know, this relationship?
And it was just a lot ofreassurance that those were not
the cases.
Ands one you find a lot ofthings that's like trying to fix

(05:28):
your relationship or like ifyou're, you know, getting the
spark back, and I was like Ifeel like we have a lot of
sparks, so this is not feelinglike it's fitting.
And the other thing that willcome up is like swinger resorts,
lifestyle resorts and thingslike that.
And so I took that back to himand I said, is this what we're
talking about?
And he's, you know, he wasstill like I don't know, like

(05:51):
maybe.
And then eventually we found abook called the Ethical Slut
understanding ethicalnon-monogamy, all the different
ways that it can be practiced,how one goes about it, how you
know the things that areimportant to address in a

(06:12):
relationship, and all the things, and that just kind of became
our guidebook for a little bit.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
The.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Ethical Slut.
Is that what you said?

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Okay, that's the name of the book.
So you were talking let's goback for a second to that walk
through the bedroom.
When he says I think there'smore out there that was one of
the that I had taken is like yousaid.
Your heart started to pitterpatter and all of a sudden
you're like what?
What does he mean?
What is he talking about?
Was that his feeling when youhad come home and told him about

(06:38):
the guy that was hitting on you?
Was he jealous about that?
Or was he feeling like?
You know, that's typical, whatyou would find right, that's a
great question.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
That's a great question.
I didn't sense that he wasjealous about the first meeting.
I don't think it was at all thesame.
I mean, if I had come home andsaid, hey, this guy told me
about polyamory and hey, I'm allover it, yeah, that might have
been a different thing, but wewere both on the same page
around like this is fascinating,but not something we're
interested in.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Okay okay, I was just curious about that.
So so going on into yeah, goingon into it.
I was looking through your bookand like the lesson the first
one that you had referred to wascreating your own damn life and
really defining what it is youwant.
And I know a lot of peopledon't really walk into
relationships, monogamous orotherwise, talking about that to

(07:30):
the degree that you think youwould need to have a really
strong foundation of arelationship.
So what are you referencingthere when you were talking
about that?

Speaker 2 (07:46):
there when you were talking about that, yeah, so I
think it's very interestingbecause once you create
something that is outside of theculture's norms, what I've
really recognized is we don'tever choose monogamy, we just do
it because that's all that weknow.
It's all that we've been taught.
Generally speaking, people havebeen know about other things,
but it's not a conscious choiceby any means for most people.

(08:10):
And the other thing that I sayabout that is that we don't even
do monogamy very well.
You know, our divorce rates arequite high.
I think a lot of people are inunhappy relationships and it's
because we are fed a lot ofmessages about what monogamy is
meant to be or should be, butthat is not really based in

(08:31):
reality.
And what I think is interestingand when I was doing my
relationship coaching training,which is Gottman, you know there
are so many very short, to thepoint books, literally how to do
marriage.
Well, you know they're one oftheir most famous books, like
the seven principles on how tomake a marriage work, and these

(08:51):
are not difficult.
You know premises.
If I had to summarize that book, I would say be kind and
generous to your partner most ofthe time and when you're not
apologize.
It's that simple right, but forsome reason it's hard for us
humans to do.
But the point is that mostpeople don't ever even read that
book.
You know, we just kind of gointo monogamy with these

(09:12):
expectations that, like you said, we never talk about.
So expectations are let downand it doesn't really work out
the way that the movies havetaught us that it might.
The rom-coms.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
The rom-coms are not accurate Right.
And.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
I think when you step out of that and we were
creating and that thing that'sbeautiful about ethical
non-monogamy is as soon asyou're stepping out of, or even
if you're consciously choosingmonogamy.
And the one thing I always wantto insert here is I am not a
person that thinks thateverybody should be ethically
non-monogamous.
You know that I don't thinkit's better than monogamy, but

(09:49):
what I do think is that,whatever path you choose, it's
about creating the relationshipthat you and your partner are
dreaming about together.
It can include a little bit ofnon-monogamy, it can be totally
monogamous, it can be all thethings.
I think people have this veryblack and white view of monogamy

(10:09):
and non-monogamy.
There's a lot of misconceptionabout non-monogamy so people
don't even consider it.
But you know, if you have anoccasional threesome or have
some sexual Non-monogamy or havesome sexual Non-monogamy, yeah,
I mean technically it is, butyou don't have to declare
yourself non-monogamous.
Like there's sexual adventureand then there's like how you

(10:30):
identify as a couple, andthere's it gets very complicated
and also it's just beautifulbecause you can create whatever
you want.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
It seems like your communication would have to be
the most stellar thing ever.
You know I mean Off have to bethe most stellar thing ever, you
know, I mean the charts, yeah,off the well, and so that's
where people, I think, havedifficulty, just in general, is
being able to communicate theirfeelings, being able to
communicate what they want,being able to communicate what
they don't want, and so it feelslike the groundwork for some of

(10:58):
these things might have to beat just a much higher level not
emotional maturity, whatever itis in order for it even to be an
option that would be successful.
That's what I kind of got fromit.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yes, and those are literally some of the titles of
the other chapters about theseaspects of communication.
And I think one of themisconceptions that I've sort of
been noodling with latelyaround monogamy is I think
there's this idea that once weget into this monogamous
relationship, it's our job tomake our partner comfortable and

(11:32):
not hurt their feelings ever.
I mean not that we everintentionally want to hurt their
feelings, but to like tiptoearound and make sure we never
make them uncomfortable or think, you know, we can't want
something.
We feel like we can't wantsomething because it might make
them feel some certain way.
And I think that's the firstlike.

(11:52):
When I go back to thatconversation that my husband and
I had, I'm like that was sobrave of him to even say that
because I could have freaked out.
Well, I did freak out a littlebit, but you know I could have
freaked out more.
I do have people approach meand say, you know, I could never
even bring this up with mypartner because I feel like they
would break up with me.
And I'm point.
I think we should be able totalk to our partners about stuff

(12:14):
that we're curious about.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yes, yeah, Well, truthfully, yeah, that's
absolutely right.
And going back to thecommunication I mean I think
about I was married, michellewas married.

(12:38):
We've both been married.
We were married for very longperiods of time.
I can't even imagine everhaving a conversation like that
with my husband at the time.
He would have flipped a lid,absolutely.
You know, flipped a lid, justit would have not been something
that he would even have wantedto have a conversation about,
not that.
I did at the time?
I wouldn't.
I didn't know anything aboutthis stuff at the time.

(12:58):
But you know, being marriedthat long and really not, I mean
obviously we weren't in a goodplace because we got divorced.
But it's very obvious that thecommunication and level of
respect that you have for eachother has to be just completely
different than what you mightsee in you know, just a regular
relationship for somebody that'sbeen around for 30 years, that

(13:20):
they kind of are roommates.
You know they're just hangingout together but they're not
even having sex together anymoreyou know, yeah, Well, and I you
know, Esther Pearl always talksabout that too.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
the way you keep a relationship vital is by doing
new things that are also alittle risky and dangerous.
So, it happens to be thatswinging and non-monogamy can
kind of check that box, but itis a practice to keep finding
things to do together that docheck that box of you know, I

(13:51):
don't know.
I always say love rock climbingor sailing or something that's
like really challenging thatneither one of you know how to
do.
That feels like kind ofequivalent to jumping well and
you're doing it together.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
So you're and you're doing it together.
Yeah, yes're, you're doing ittogether.
Yeah, yes, did you have aquestion, michelle?
I can tell I have lots ofquestions but I'm right now.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
I just I kind of want to get through some of this
stuff from your book, lessonthree, for example, and you talk
about emotional sovereignty.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Oh, and all these lessons, bythe way, are things that I
personally have looked rightthere is never any judgment on.
I mean, I have been a verycodependent partner.

(14:33):
I have been all of these things, yeah.
But emotional sovereignty isbest explained with an example.
So instead of the saying toyour partner you made me feel
jealous last night when youspoke with that woman.
I would say I'm feeling reallyjealous after seeing you speak

(14:53):
with that woman last night.
Now it seems like a subtleshift.
But in the first example youare immediately blaming your
partner for making you feel acertain way which, by the way,
is actually kind of animpossibility.
No one can make you feel anyparticular way.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
I think we can agree on that.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah.
The second one by saying I feeljealous, it just creates a
little space of that.
They can actually ask like ohwhy?
Why do you feel jealous?
Why did that make you feeljealous when it hasn't made you
feel jealous in the past?
There's like just this tiny bitof space for them to not be on
the defensive and to actually becurious about why you're

(15:35):
feeling that way, and so it isabout owning your emotions and
deciding what you want to dowith them.
You know, sometimes you're likeokay that I was.
Just I drank too much lastnight.
That's silly, that's not evensomething we need to talk about.
That might be something youwant to bring up with your
partner.

(15:55):
That might be, something youwant to just talk through with
your best friend or yourtherapist or whatever.
It's yours to own.
However, what I don't wantpeople to interpret it as is
you're on your own with thatemotion, because you actually do
want to keep sharing thesethings with your partner,
because that's the whole pointof being in partnership is

(16:16):
supporting each other throughyour hard emotions.
And there might be somethingthat comes out of that
conversation.
So we talk a lot aboutagreements and boundaries and
ethical non-monogamy.
You know, out of thoseconversations it might be
something like I, you know, atleast temporarily, can we set up
this boundary or whatever youdecide together as a couple to

(16:38):
marriage through that emotion ofthe day, and it doesn't mean
you're on your own to do it.
You are sharing, but it doesn'tmean you're on your own to do
it.
You are sharing, but it is yoursto own.
It's also actually yours to fix.
So if there is something to fix, it's yours to either ask for
what you need or find you knowyour path for fixing it, like I

(17:01):
said, through a therapist orwhatever.
I think that's.
Another misconception inmonogamy is that now I've shared
my emotion with you, you have,you're kind of responsible for
it now.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
First, I might blame you for it.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Second, you need to help me fix that.
Well, I'm here to support you,I want to support you, and if
you can articulate to me whatyou need, that's even easier.
That's always the holy grailwhen we can articulate to our
partners what we need, that'sthe best.
Sometimes we don't know what weneed, but that's the way you
want to think about this.
Emotional sovereignty is likethese are my emotions and I'm

(17:38):
going to figure out what to dowith them, including who to
share it with.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
In that particular chapter, you had told a story
about.
You use the term emotionalmonogamy, so non-monogamy but
emotional monogamy.
So that was the agreement thatyou essentially with your
husband.
You could maybe tell the storyor maybe, you know, paraphrase
the story, but he had metsomeone who you really enjoyed

(18:06):
as well, but who he fell in lovewith.
See, that would be like the.
That would be the thing that Iwould be so afraid of happening
in that particular circumstance,because that's not what the
agreement was.
So how do you manage throughthat?
Because that's got to be sohard on you.
It's got to create a lot ofpain.

(18:26):
That's pretty much the worst.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
That's the biggest fear that most people come into
ethical non-law.
Ethical non law.
Now I did forget to define afew things in the beginning.
So ethical non-monogamy is avery wide umbrella term.
Then underneath that you havepolyamorous people who are in it
for falling in love and havingmultiple committed relationships

(18:52):
.
Then on the other end sort ofis swinging, which is more
sexual adventure and friendshipand you're not in it so much for
emotional commitment.
Then there's everything inbetween, because like I said
people are.
You know, there's kind ofswitching back and forth.
You know where you havepolyamorous people that swing
together or swingers that becomepolyamorous, all kinds of
things, but within that you dohave these agreements.

(19:15):
Now there are probably some andthese are the most awesome
conversations to have with yourpartner is some underlying
beliefs around relationship andemotions and all these things.
So I personally believe that wedo have some control over who
we fall in love with.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
Right.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Some people believe you don't have control over that
.
You know, I'm like we interactwith people every day at work,
schools, different places, wherewe play different roles with
people, and we have differentemotional boundaries for all of
them, sure, so it's just apractice within this world to
kind of keep up those sameboundaries.

(19:55):
Does it take an emotionallymature person to do so?
Yes, it does.
There is nothing aboutnon-monogamy that doesn't
require a lot of emotionalmaturity, and that's one big
reason I don't recommend it foreveryone.
You know, a I don't thinkeveryone's interested in it, and
B I don't think everyone's cutout for it, and I think that's

(20:16):
great when people recognize thatthey're probably not cut out
for it, and that was verydifficult Now, I think.
And when you're makingagreements like this, things can
get a little tricky, and thisis what I help clients with all
the time is creating agreementsand making sure we don't use any

(20:36):
vague language.
So, like you know, we're notgoing to have feelings for other
people.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well, I thought what does that?

Speaker 2 (20:43):
mean yeah, what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (20:44):
right, I mean you have feelings you have, you're
turned on by that person, yeah,and you don't have like
intellectual stimulationnecessarily in the same way that
you would be from your partner.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
I mean intellectual, sure, and here's the thing about
.
I think the biggest learningprobably for me, and where some
of the biggest misunderstandingscome from, is that non-monogamy
operates in a space that ourmonogamous culture has taught us
does not exist.
Right, so we can operate, andpolyamorous are really kind of

(21:19):
more overlapping with monogamyin this sense, because, you know
, over here on the swinging end,we're like no, you can have sex
with people, you can have deepfriendships with people and not
necessarily fall in love withthem.
Well, you could love them as afriend, you love them as a

(21:46):
friend, you love them as afriend and not necessarily fall
in love with them.
The right time and place forthat.
And, of course, like that's avery complicated conversation
around sexuality.
But there is that level like,yes, there is an understanding
that there can be casual sex.
So I would say that in thisworld, especially in the

(22:07):
swinging world, we're allconnecting, we're having great
connection, emotional connection, intellectual connection,
sexual connection but we're notfalling in love with every
single person that we're doingthis with.
You know what I'm saying.
And so that is confusing forpeople, because the rom-coms
tell us that actually you'regoing to fall in love with the

(22:28):
person and you're going to wantto spend the rest of your life
with them and we're just likeit's just not true, like this is
an entire community of peoplethat operate in this space.
Okay, but to go back to yourquestion, with the way it
happened with my husband, andthat's actually chapter four and
the chap, but the title ofchapter four is my favorite,
which is love your partner butlove yourself a little bit more

(22:49):
yes, I almost feel like thatshould be your tattoo.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
I choose me.
Is that what you ended upgetting?
Yeah, I choose me as my tattoo.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
On your rose.
Yeah yeah, so it's a rosebudbranch and then I choose me is
like a little.
It looks kind of like anotherbranch and it's written
backwards so that I see it inthe mirror.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Because, like I mentioned, I had a lot of
codependent tendencies in myrelationship in the sense that,
like I, was always putting hisfeelings before mine.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
And so when he did, you know we walked a path
together with this friend thatthey ended up falling in love
with each other, and it was.
And I'm not ever going to saythat non-monogamy is not
complicated.
Oh no, it is complicated, it'svery complicated.
Yeah absolutely, and so somethings you are experimenting

(23:48):
with a little bit, and I didn'tknow until we got to a certain
phase that like, actually, thisis not working for me and I
tried to make it work for me andit just didn't.
I couldn't get there, and yeah,then it becomes a conversation.
It's like this is what I'mtalking about the emotional
maturity.
It's like maybe you should gobe with her or maybe you know,

(24:10):
there's like all these that youdecide kind of at, not kind of
you decide as a couple.
It's just like the.
It's the pinnacle of theseemotionally mature conversations
, right, and really decidingwhat you want.
Because I was also like thereare, we are non-monogamous,
there are many options here,like we don't have to continue
on in this marriage the way thatwe have if this is really

(24:33):
important to you, and so thoseconversations ultimately again
will bring you back closertogether, because we did choose
to stay together and you know, Ithink what the other thing is
that's painful when we hearabout some of these situations
is somebody gets hurt.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Right.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
And that's always hard to stomach.
But what I also say is thatnon-monogamous do not have a
patent and hurt feelings.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
It happens all the time Like resentment about the I
guess breaking the agreement.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
I was assuming that was an agreement.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
And not harboring that and keeping that.
You know, while you're tryingto work through all of this,
that's in my head.
I'd be like I would feel sohurt and resentful.
I think that it would be reallyhard for me to get past some of
those.
That's just me, I mean.
That's all I'm thinking.
Yeah, and I do well.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
I do mention this in the book too, and I think that
in some ways it can mirrorhaving an affair, except the
thing that's not.
There is betrayal and lying, sothere might be some similar
hurt feelings, but I think thatis a very important piece that
allows for, I mean, even peoplecan heal, even through the

(25:49):
betrayal and lying.
But we didn't have that aspectat all, like we were all upfront
about all of our feelings allthe time, so it wasn't.
I think that made it easier.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Well, it gives you a premise certainly to be able to
speak about how you're feelingabout it.
I mean, you had mentioned thatyou were trying to make it work
and that's probably yourcodependent side, saying I
really want him to be happy.
That's one thing that I waspicking up in the book.
I'm just like, wow, she'sreally.
She's a good woman, she wantsto be happy, she's like I was

(26:21):
trying to figure this all outabout, so her husband can be
happy, and just you know,obviously you got to the point
where you're like this isn'tworking and I tried, but it's
not working.
So you gave it the old collegetry.
I guess is what I'm saying.
Realize that it's not how youhad envisioned things to be, and
so you guys could adjust fromthat.
And it sounds like it made youstronger, based on what I was

(26:42):
reading.
It made you guys have a muchstronger bond than you already
had.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know we had beenmarried, let's say a few years
ago, so I don't know 17 years orsomething married let's say a
few years ago, so I don't know17 years or something.
And sometimes I think and I'mnot suggesting that something so
negative has to happen butsometimes a little rupture or a
little earthquake to thefoundation of a relationship and

(27:07):
Esther Perl will talk aboutthat a lot too, can benefit the
relationship as well, because,as you guys know, being in
long-term majors, we change aspeople all the time and so this
relationship has to like kind ofkeep up, and so sometimes that
readjustment is just a littlemore painful than other times.
And that was a big thing for meis I was very clear that he

(27:29):
never intended to that to hurtme.
You know he's and he wasn'tlying and it was none of those
things.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
and so it was.
That was what you expected, soit's right.
I actually got a lot out ofreading that section, because
that's pretty raw for you to beable to write about it too, you
know.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, well, of course I sat down to write that book
and I was like I'm not writingabout that really.
That's because I was likethat's gonna be too much for
people.
That's everyone's worst fear.
I'm not writing about thatReally, that's because I was
like that's going to be too muchfor people.
That's everyone's worst fear.
I can't talk about that.
But then I sat down and, youknow, wrote that Because it's
what's on people's minds.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
They're always like, well, what happens if this
happens, you know?
So that's exactly what was onmy mind and you spoke about it.
So that was helpful, you know,to kind of get a better
understanding.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, Well, no, I just it was bringing me back to
the emotional sovereignty too.
There's so many situations, I'msure, where it causes you to
look within.
And what are what?
Why is this?
Why am I feeling this way?
You know it's.
It brings a lot of light andself-reflection.
I would imagine, yes, in a lotof those situations.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
self-reflection, I would imagine.
Yes, so much In a lot of thosesituations yeah, so much.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
That's why one of the other chapters I say
self-awareness is the mostimportant trait to really have
going into this, because thatpiece of like, recognizing even
how I feel, being able toquestion how and why I feel that
way and you know, of course I'ma coach and also personal
development and personal growthhas been like my hobby my whole

(28:59):
entire adult life.
So that also for me was like,even more so like, why can't I
get okay with this?
I coach other people aroundthis and like and like.
You know, as I said in the book, there's an entire community of
polyamorous people that do thisall the time, like, and I
understand the dynamics, so whycan't I?

(29:22):
Now I have lots of reasons nowyou know, looking back in
hindsight, why I couldn't, butat the time it was just that
struggle of not.
Yeah, I'm wanting everyone tobe happy.
That was probably it.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
It is absolutely yeah .
So we know that this is kind ofan underground lifestyle
because it's not necessarilywell accepted or even a lot of
people don't really know aboutit.
I mean, my only exposure hasbeen learning some things
through, you know, inpreparation for the podcast,
reading your book and havingbeen approached by people and I

(29:58):
was just like wow, okay, Ididn't know what, I had no idea
what to do, what to say.
I was like it was just, youknow, like New Year's Eve in
Scottsdale, arizona, and I wasapproached by the woman, just
chitty chat.
She was very nice, we, we werejust chatting away and the guy I
was with in a relationship.
He said I think they're swingers.

(30:19):
And I'm like, really, becausethe guy was talking to him and
as it turns out they were andhonestly, my guy would have been
down for it, because he justwould have been down for it.
Probably he never said that,but we know him, he would have
definitely been down for it.
But that's really my onlyexposure.
You just don't hear anythingabout it and there's a lot of
stigma there.
There was a michelle when Iwere talking about like these

(30:41):
things about the pineapple beingupside down and the white rocks
and those stories, or are thosereally things?

Speaker 2 (30:47):
white rocks in the in front of your house?
The upside down pineapple?
Is that?
The upside down pineapple is abit of a thing, is it the white
rocks?
I would say less so.
There's certain things, andyou'll hear something about
black rings too, but those arenot.
They're not.

(31:07):
What would I say about those?
Those are not.
You can't count on those to betrue okay if you saw someone
with an upside down pineapple ontheir front door, you could
count on those to be true.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Okay, if you saw someone with an upside down
pineapple on their front door,you could count on that to be
sure, you know, I've alwaysthought that's like a Southern
thing, Like I remember, likeit's like the pineapple goes
upside down when someone has along-term gift.
It's supposed to be likehospitality or something.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think pineapples havebecome so, so popular.
So people would ask me if Ijust saw pineapples you know
they were a lot of pineappleLike no, that's also not.
But if you saw like an upsidedown one, I would say there's a
good chance, yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
I hear that on cruise ships a lot.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
I don't know we wear clothes with upside down
pineapples on them and all kindsof things.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
Okay, but you're right, it isunderground.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
It is underground and it is interesting that in this
day and age well, maybe not inthis political climate, but in
general of a lot of acceptancearound, a lot of sexual
preferences and different thingsand sexual freedom, that we are
still very underground.
I feel like we are sort ofwhere the gay community was like
five or ten years ago.

(32:21):
We don't tell people.
And really the only reason wedon't is because of all the
misconceptions.
If people really understood itbecause that's almost every
podcast I go on, everybody Italk to about this.
They're like this is sodifferent than I ever would have
imagined, and actually that'seven what people say when they
get into it is they're like ohmy gosh, this is so different

(32:42):
than I imagined.
Because people do comeespecially on the swinging end
of things for the sexualadventure or sexual part of it,
but almost everyone stays forthe community because it's just
a very fun, open-minded group ofpeople to hang out with.
And yeah, it's very differentthan most people think any kind
of structured, planned eventslike social events and

(33:06):
gatherings.
Oh yeah, like I mean, I don'tknow if the a&m convention, I
don't know well, it's a facebookgroups right.
Well, there are closed facebookgroups and stuff like that.
There are actually swingerdating sites there.
We call them hotel takeovers,kind of what you're talking
about.
Sometimes an event will takeover most of a hotel and there

(33:28):
is one event actually it happensevery year that we call the
Swinger Convention because ithas a very strong educational
component, and I go and doworkshops and stuff like that at
it every year.
So it's just like everythingelse.
You know when your kid startsdoing a sport that you like
don't know a lot about, and thenyou realize like, wow, there's
a whole world around thisincluding like a world cup of

(33:48):
the sport, like who knows?
It's kind of like that, like,once you find out about it, it's
just like oh, it is prevalent,and the thing that we can fall
into is it becomes very normalfor us and we forget how not
normal and how not accepted itis outside of our world, and so
we talk about that challenge.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah yeah, I find that friendships and the people
that you were spending time withfamily friends, that they have
accepted that lifestyle with you.
Like I know you had to talk toyour kids about it when they
were teenagers, right, andfinally decided to share that
with them and they were kind oflike, well, why didn't you tell
us?
But what about, like yourfamily here?

(34:30):
Did you talk to them about it?

Speaker 2 (34:33):
Yeah.
So my parents don't know, mybrother doesn't know, my sister
knows, most of our friends knowand you know, in some ways it
becomes important to tell peopleat some point only because,
like your friendships sufferRight Things that you can't tell
.
Now there are friends ofdifferent levels of interest.

(34:55):
Like, some friends want to knoweverything, some friends you
can talk about it again and allthat's fine, as long as you
don't have to hide that part ofyourself on people.
That's the important piece.
And so you know, like myparents I don't know per se that
relationship suffers for thatreason and so it just becomes a
case by case for everyone andbecause of what I do, for a

(35:17):
career and writing a book andall the things, that's when we
decided to tell our children fora career and writing a book and
all the things.
That's when we decided to tellour children.
But you know, and what my kidssaid was you know, kids are our
generation, we don't really careabout stuff like that.
That was great.
I said I know, but the parentsof the kids of your generation
still do, and so that's reallyclear.
I'm like this is not a secretand we're not ashamed, because I

(35:37):
didn't want them to feel likewe're like telling them
something that they had to hide.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
I said but also, you want to be thoughtful about who
you tell yeah, I would think so,because with them too, if their
parents, their friends' parents, are judgmental about it, that
could impact the friendshipsthat they have with those kids
and everything too.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofdynamics that kind of fall into
that.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
And I would say that's a very primary reason a
lot of people don't that keep itso closeted is everyone's
worried about the effect on thechildren.
You know, if the parents findout and then they don't let our
kids hang out or whatever, whichthat's an insane concept, that
in this very consenting worldthat we live in, that people

(36:22):
would be like you can't hang outwith those people with those
kids, because a lot of themgoing back to the misconceptions
or their own perceived.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
You know how they, what their values are, what they
were taught.
You know when they were aboutmonogamy or women scantily
dressed being sluts.
You know it goes back to all ofthat because, yeah, like when I
was looking, I would love foryou to share a little bit about
like an example of what a partyis like when you walk in.
Because I'm thinking when youwalk in, I just picture some

(36:53):
dark room with music and likevelvet drapes everywhere.
I have no why, but that's whatI kind of picture and people
dancing and I mean I don't knowif there is there there alcohol
there or, you know, are thereseparate rooms people can go in?
I just really have no conceptof what it even, what it's even

(37:13):
like.
Or does everybody sit aroundand hang out in the middle of
the?
You know, just like at anightclub.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, I would say it's like a nightclub.
So there, first of all, everyclub is a little different so I
can't speak too much toeverything.
But I would say in general, ifwe talk about a swingers club in
general and a swingers clubwhere people can have sex
because there are some swingersclubs where people cannot have,
there isn't areas to play Playis the word for sex it's just

(37:40):
like a meet and greet kind ofclub.
In fact we took our vanilla funto one once and he was like
this is so fun, like it's justlike any other club, but it's
like more open-minded.
Of course people are a littlemore scantily dressed but, like
I said, it's just it's in a veryopen-minded fun crowd.
There generally is alcohol.
A lot of the clubs around thecountry you have to bring your

(38:02):
own because they operate asprivate memberships and private
clubs.
That's how they operate.
And then so there's usuallykind of like a front of the
house where there's a dance,sometimes food, people are
mingling, and then what I callback of the house, which is,
once you go back there, that'swhere the playrooms are.
There are private playrooms,public playrooms, big playrooms,

(38:23):
and then there's usually someway to tell, like, if you want
people, if you want people towatch you, you can like leave
the curtain or the door open.
If you don't want people towatch you.
You can close that Because,like that's another thing, like
I was talking about earlier,some people go to these clubs.
They're not playing with othercouples or they're just playing
themselves.
Maybe they want to be watched,maybe they just want to watch

(38:47):
others and they like the sexyvibe.
So now are they non-monogamous?
No they're just.
You know, this is like what I'msaying.
We think of this as being veryblack and white, but it's not,
and so these places are set upfor, you know.
So people can do what theyplease.
And you use the term vanilla.

(39:09):
I know somebody, too, that isin part of this lifestyle and
she told me about that term.
So when you said it, Irecognize it, but I want to
explain.
Yeah, I forgot.
So vanilla is just anyone thatis not non-monogamous.
Yeah, it's not in the community.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, and it doesn't mean missionary position for the
rest of your life boringvanilla.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Well, I also don't even call themselves vanilla
swingers, because they're likewe don't do anything crazy,
we're just like regular right,so yeah yeah kind of.
It's kind of a fun to yeah, Ithink so that was kind of okay.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
So this might be a really strange question, I don't
know, but it was one that cameto mind.
So how do you, how do you dealwith, like the sexual aspects of
things and people's health, oris that even something that
comes up like, do they, oh yeah,like stis and stuff?
You mean yeah.
Or you know even like herpesand things like that?
I mean, are there, is there andstuff?
You mean yeah.
Or you know even like herpesand things like that.

(40:03):
I mean, are there?
Is there oral sex that couldhappen, or is it just straight
up like regular?
I mean, how do you know thatpeople are healthy?

Speaker 2 (40:11):
yes.
So first of all, there'sprotection.
You know condoms are alwaysused in.
Fifth now there's two termsthat we're going to get into
some real intricate terms here.
There's full swap and and softswap.
So full, this is all.
These are all swinger terms.
So full swap is people who arehaving penetrative sex with
others, and soft swap isgenerally anything but, again,

(40:33):
everyone's kind of definingthings for themselves, so you
always have to ask so this issomething to think about.
The first time we're meetingwith couples, we're talking
about things like this.
We're talking about when wasthe last time you were tested?
So people get tested regularly.
We talk about those things.
You know, this is what kind ofhorrifies, I think, some people
because they're like it's soawkward and you're like it's

(40:53):
really not and it's alsoimportant to talk about these
things.
And it's also why ourfriendships in the lifestyle
have a different flavor to them,because we are vulnerable with
each other very quickly.
Like I like to say, we don'tsit around and talk about the
weather for very long, yeah, andthen we're off to talking about

(41:14):
not only like fundings, likemaybe some of our other
lifestyle experiences or how wegot into it, all things that are
all very emotional Right theirlifestyle experiences or how we
got into it, all things that areall very emotional right.
And so you're kind of gettingin deep with people from the
get-go, whether or not you endup being intimate with them
sexually, and then there mightbe that aspect as well.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Okay, yeah, that was one of the things that kind of
came to mind, because even being, you know, a hetero woman, it's
like I worry about.
I mean, I think about thatstuff all the time.
Yeah, I'm always worried aboutthat it's important.
People are not honest a lot ofthe time, you know, and you just
got to be protecting yourselfin the best way you can.
Right, absolutely, absolutely,and it's a very.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
You know we talked about the biggest fears.
I think the three things thatpeople come to me with is one,
what if my partner falls in lovewith somebody else falls in
love with somebody else?
Two, what about STF?
And three, just what about uswrecking what we already have?
So here's the thing aboutnon-monogamy that is probably
one of the biggestmisconceptions is that people
are doing it because they're nothappy in their current

(42:14):
relationship, when nothing elseis further from the truth.
People who are not happy intheir current relationship
should not be tryingnon-monogamy because, let me
tell you, that will speed up thedemise of your relationship.
So people come into non-monogamyalready feeling like they're in
this great relationship andeveryone has a fear of ruining
that which is a very healthyfear and that's the title of the

(42:37):
book For Better or Even Better,because you already feel like
you have this great relationshipand then almost always, when
people are practicingnon-monogamy in a healthy way,
they feel even closer.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
even you know they're like wow, we thought we had a
great relationship before, nowit's even better I would think
the level of trust, like you'resaying it's like you're, you can
probably almost even talk aboutthese things.
You know.
It's like oh, I saw this guylooked pretty intriguing, or
maybe you guys only do thingstogether, or it sounded like in
your book.
There's occasions when youwould go out on your own and
with maybe girlfriends or otherpeople, and maybe he did the

(43:11):
same thing too.
But is that a part of it?
Again, that's something thateverybody maybe does a little
bit differently or agrees to alittle bit differently, or
agrees to a little bitdifferently, but is that
something that would make youfeel uncomfortable if your
husband was going out withpeople you didn't know?
Or is it usually people thatyou both agreed on being around?
It totally depends on thecouple.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
So some people never date separately.
Some people do some thingsseparately.
Some people really only dothings separately when both have
met the other people andthere's a level of trust with
everyone.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
Some people meet the other person that there goes, oh
it just 100 depends yeah okay,I was kind of curious about that
yeah what else, michelle?

Speaker 2 (43:53):
I don't know.
I think I think a lot of it hasbeen answered.
Yeah, there's.
I just think, as we've gonethrough, you see how much well
misconceptions that there areabout this lifestyle and it
automatically is just about theswinging and the sex and the
upside down pineapple.

(44:14):
I mean really when you thinkabout it.
It's like being ignorant aboutit, that is really the only
thing that people really knowWell yeah I half joke, although
it's not really that far fromthe truth that people imagine
these swinger clubs.
As you walk in the front door,there's an orgy of people having
sex and you're just expected tojump on top.
Yeah, so my first thing Ialways tell everyone is there

(44:36):
are never any expectations ofanyone participating in anything
, and if you're ever in asituation where you do feel like
you're expected to do something, you should get out of that
situation.
That's not how this communityoperates.
Yeah, and so there is.
That's just not a thing.
And I think, like I said before,everyone thinks we're in it

(44:57):
just for the sex and I think,very quickly, people are in it
just for the friendships.
Actually, I think, very quickly, people are in it just for the
friendships.
Actually, that's what peopleare there for and these deep
friendships in this community.
You know Everyone as humans.
We love connection, we lovecommunity and I think people
find that in this community.
Yeah, is it okay if I mentionwhat state you're in?

(45:18):
Yeah, of course.
Okay, so you reside in thestate of Utah, so I would
imagine that there's a lot ofpeople that you have been able
to help that come from thatreligion.
I mean all people in general.
But just knowing a lot aboutthe culture in that church, I

(45:39):
would imagine yeah, so.
I'm not from utah we moved hereeight years ago and but almost
all of our friends in thelifestyle here are ex-mormon
yeah, some of them not ex.
There are people who practiceboth way on the down low there.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah, way on the down and it's been.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
You know I haven't been through the experience of
leaving the church for myself,but I think, other than having
been through it myself, I'mprobably as privy to that
process as one can be, justbecause of all the people that I
know and I've spoken with and Imentioned this in my book.
But and there's something Ireally enjoy about the people in

(46:20):
Utah that have been throughthat process, because they
really you know when they leavethe church, because it dictates
so many aspects to your lifewhen you leave the church.
You're really left with thisblank slate of like oh.
They are very present to thefact that they were able to

(46:42):
create everything in their liveskind of from scratch.
My point is that everyoneactually has that freedom,
especially if you don't comefrom a high demand religion.
But we all do feel thepressures of expectations or
things that we should want to door parents want us to do, you
know, whatever.
All those things are real.
But so it's just a reminder forall of us that we should want
to do or our parents want us todo, you know, whatever.
All those things are real.
But so it's just a reminder forall of us that we all get to

(47:06):
create whatever we want in ourlives.
But I think the people who havereally been through that process
of recreation.
There's very evolved people.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Yeah, they would almost have to be just getting
past all of the guilt and, likeyou say, the expectations that
have been placed.
I was raised catholic, butbetween the two of us we're a
sorry bunch now and neither oneof us practice those things
anymore.
You know, to this, to thatdegree I definitely feel like it
plays a role in a lot of thedecisions subconsciously that I

(47:36):
even make, without evenrealizing it.
You know, and having beenmarried as long as we were
really kind of not gettingexposed to a lot of other things
, you realize, for us anyway,after divorce, it was like there
was like this whole world outthere that we never really had
even paid attention to, just inregard to everything that was
going on around us as women, andyou know all of that.

(47:57):
So this is a very interestingconversation because as we get
older and one of the things youdid mention in your book is that
a lot of the people in theswinging lifestyle in particular
, or maybe poly lifestyles too,but they're in their and so
they're more open to tryingdifferent things that bring joy,
kind of going into that lastchapter that we had had, you

(48:31):
talked about savoring joy, yeah,making good life choices yeah,
I like that.
Yeah, I like that.
Yeah, joy because there's so.
There's joy in so many thingsthat you find, but it sounds
like, wait, you found other.
Pleasure has a lot of mixedmessages.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
We talked about the complexity of sexuality.
So sexuality has a lot ofcomplexity around it, and even

(49:11):
pleasure has some complexityaround it Like there's always.
you know, we have the termguilty pleasure right, and so
it's really just recognizingthat as a human pleasure is one
of the experiences we get tohave, and why would we feel
guilty about that?
And so there is so muchunlearning.
I call it in non-monogamybecause, like you said, there's

(49:32):
so many things that we don'tthink about, and so a lot of
times when you're strugglingwith something in any time, but
in non-monogamy it's like well,why do I think that?
And asking yourself that simplequestion, I always something I
ask myself is like where did Ilearn that?

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Or who taught me that ?

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Sometimes I realize, like I don't even believe, that
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Why do I put so much emphasis on something?

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Yeah, but it's just something that got taught to me
along the way and it's stillthere and I hadn't thought about
it in forever.
And now the situation has mademe question something, and so I
love watching the journey ofsexuality with women who are in
the lifestyle.
For this very reason becauseand again like I said, I'm
talking about all pleasure, notjust sexual pleasure.

(50:15):
But sexual pleasure has anotherlayer of complexity, I'll say,
around it.
And shame Watching womendiscover the sexual side of
themselves, accept the sexualside of themselves, embrace the
sexual side of themselves andthen bring that whole being into
the world.
It is amazing to watch and thatis one of the first things that

(50:38):
women notice when they get intolifestyle and they see it in
other women, and it isremarkable and it's beautiful.
It really is.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
I would think that your confidence level even if
you're a confident woman ingeneral, your confidence level
would just be through the roof.
You're walking a little taller,you've got a little pep in your
step, kind of a thing I meanthat's kind of what your step,
kind of a thing, you know.
I mean that's kind of what itseems like to me because when
you look at just women ingeneral in our society, in all

(51:09):
of history, our pleasure is notsomething that really is
highlighted in a positive way inany capacity.
I mean, even in other cultures,you know, they're cutting
clitorises off of little kidsbecause they're not allowed to
have pleasure.
They're only there forreproductive and male pleasure
purposes, and that's going wayback, obviously, but that still
exists today.

(51:29):
You know, and a lot of the oh,I don't know, a lot of the
things that are surroundingreligion, for example, is where
you really run into a lot of youknow, having been, like I said,
raised in the Catholic churchand raised by really strict
parents and very judgmentalparents my dad in particular I
see where a lot of those thingsthat I learned when I was a kid

(51:52):
I'm now, as an adult, going Idon't even know why I felt that
was so important to you know,pass along to my children, you
know, or whatever, because itdoesn't make any sense Now as an
adult, I question a lot ofthings I didn't really question
when I was younger.
So, yeah, well, I have enjoyedthis tremendously.
Yeah, you certainly give mesomething else to think about

(52:13):
and I'm not married.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
So I mean it's like I could you know I could pretty
much do whatever I want at thispoint, but yeah, I wanted ask
you what was your impression ofthe people that were hitting on
you that did turn out to beswingers.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
So it was a very handsome couple.
From what I remember, it was avery handsome couple and they
were probably around the sameage as us, so we were around 50
at the time, I think I didn'tknow that's what was happening.
I'm a pretty social person, butsuper naive I mean I had not
been divorced even that long,maybe two years.
I was so naive and I'd beenmarried at such a young age that

(52:47):
I just thought this was thislady being nice to me.
I didn't really realize thatshe was interested in anything
other than that.
Yeah, and so until the guy Iwas with said I think they're
sweet, because the guyapproached him and they were
talking, we went out and dancedand everything, and I was just
having fun I didn't really thinkanything of it.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Well, and I even asked you that in a leading way
because I think that's the thingis like that's.
One of the other misconceptionsis that as soon as a swinger is
talking to you, they must behitting on you, or there, I get
this all this time.
Is that anything?
I was at this comedy club.
It came out that you know, itwas known that my husband and I
were swingers and whatever,because there were some jokes

(53:26):
made about it and and the guy onthe way out, I made some kind
of joke to him and he goes yeah,well, I don't think my, I
wasn't joking about sex, even Iwas just like making a joke
about meeting him.
And he was like, yeah, I don'tthink my girlfriend would be
into it.
And I was like dude.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
I'm not after you I'm not.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Yeah, what's happening here and that idea
that we were talking about that,it's all about sex, that we're
constantly hitting on everyoneyou know.
You know, maybe they werecurious if you guys were open
also, and so I guess you couldcall that hitting on.
But I think that's one of thethings that is very frustrating
for us out in the world is thatif people do know that we are
that, then they think that's allwe're after and we're not right

(54:03):
.
Yeah, no, like I just said,we're really in this for
friendships, so yeah, and then Iwas just going to say, like
anything, there's all differenttypes of people.
Representative of, yes, what theculture is right.
I know somebody who, flat out,was propositioned to like no,
skirting around the subject,invited him to go back to the

(54:26):
hotel room and have sex so herhusband could watch, you know,
and of course he just didn'teven know what to say, like I'm
flattered, but no, that's okay,is what it was.
But to your point.
You know, there's going to beall different types, that's true
, but to your point you knowthere's going to be all
different types and it doesn't.
It's not representative of whatthe whole lifestyle is, and

(54:48):
that's so true, and, as so manythings, the people who probably
create that stereotype.
They are out there, right, sureRight.
And unfortunately, those arethe only ones that are seen,
because the rest of us arehiding.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
So it does come from somewhere.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah, yeah, I would love a world where you know we
could ask and people would belike, no, thank you, we're not
into that and everyone can justcarry on right you're not gonna
get your feelings hurt.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
I mean, imagine you had to figure out the whole
rejection aspect of things youknow, because you're going to be
maybe oh right, the people thatare not interested don't know
anything, anything about it Kindof like what happened with me.
I was like I've never even beenexposed to it before, so I
didn't have any idea what theywere talking about.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
And I would say most of the time, swingers in
particular are not out in thereal world looking for other
swingers.
That's why we have clubs andevents and things that we go to
why we have clubs and events andthings that we go to, because
it was relatively speaking,there are a lot of us, but

(55:48):
relatively speaking, in aregular club there's going to be
a small percentage, right thatwould be a bit of a nightmare
yeah, no kidding.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
Okay, well, I have learned a lot today.
I so appreciate your time andjust getting to understand and
know a little bit about thelifestyle that you practice.
We did do one episode last yearthe year before.
That was on alternatives tomonogamous relationship just,
but we weren't doing it fromexperience.
It was more like just speakingabout different types of like.
For example, michelle's in along distance relationship.

(56:18):
Her guy lives in Indianapolis,seattle lives in Seattle.
So it's a different type ofrelationship and we did touch on
this obviously very high levelbecause we didn't have the
experience with it.
So this is really helpful andI've told some people that we're
going to be talking with youtonight.
They're very excited to see ourepisode.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Yeah, I really appreciate you having me on.
It takes a level of openmindedness for that, so I
appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
We'll put a link.
We'll put a link for your bookand everything as well in our
notes, because I know there's alot of people that would be
interested in having a look.
And it's a quick read.
It's a quick read.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
And also and I think you could speak to this it's not
for people who arenon-monogamous.
These life lessons are foreveryone and improve any
relationship monogamous or not?

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah, I absolutely 100% agree.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, I definitely got a lot out of it.
Reminder for the listeners thebook is called For Better or
Even Better.
Lauren Hayes, thank you so muchfor being with us.
I want to just really quicklythank our listeners for being
out there on social media.
We're out on all the socialstiktok, instagram, facebook,
most recently, youtube.

(57:26):
Thank you everyone that's beensubscribing and downloading.
We appreciate it.
Tell and share all your friends.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
So oh, and then warren your website.
Can you say what your websiteis?
It's swinging lifestylecoachcom okay I had it, but I
just wanted to make sure it wasout there, yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
And another thing, an easy way to remember if you go
to explorewithlaurencom I have afree guide that comes up for
that to start some interestingconversations with your partner.
Okay, I love that yeah, well,thank you again.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Yeah, thank you again , we really appreciate your time
.
Yeah.
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