September 15, 2023 • 31 mins
This week on Spilling the Thera-Tea, we take a deep dive into Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - a misunderstood and overused diagnosis. Guided by therapist KathyDan Moore, we unravel the complexities of NPD, warning of the dangers of misdiagnosis and the importance of individualized care. Grief coach Jess Lowe joins the conversation to shed light on narcissistic abuse, empowering you with strategies to deal with someone with NPD. We leave you with an insightful worksheet and practical steps on how to cope, heal and move forward.
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Grief Coaching :
https://kdmcounselinggroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Grief-Coaching-Resource.pdf?
Narcissistic Abuse Recovery:
https://kdmcounselinggroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/narcissistic-abuse-recovery.pdf?
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DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not replace the advice you may be receiving from a licensed therapist.This podcast and website represents the opinions of KathyDan Moore, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Grief Coach Jess Lowe, and their guests to the show and website. The content here should not be taken as medical advice.
The content here is for informational purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions.Views and opinions expressed in the podcast and website are our own. While we make every effort to ensure that the information we are sharing is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
Privacy is of utmost importance to us. All people, places, and scenarios mentioned in the podcast have been changed to protect patient confidentiality.This website or podcast should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever, including but not limited to establishing “standard of care” in a legal sense or as a basis for expert witness testimony.
No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on the podcast or website.In no way does listening, reading, emailing or interacting on social media with our content establish a doctor-patient relationship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Spilling the Fairytale with
therapist Kathy Dan Moore andgrief coach Jess Lowe.
Hey, kathy Dan, I'm so glad tosee you today.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hey, jess it's good to see you.
Your bangs are looking great,by the way.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Well, they're not done right now.
I have so much I have to dothis afternoon and I have to go
somewhere, so I have to fix myhair.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Oh well, I think they look good.
They're good like likeoutgrowth.
You know Bangs are always toughwith how much they should grow
out.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Mine grows really fast.
It's a small way to go ofperfection.
Yeah, mine grow really fast.
I'll probably be cutting them.
If I just had to keep them,I'll probably be cutting them
sometime next week.
But we have Jason has acustomer coming in town, he's at
the beach this week with hisfamily and he wants to meet for
dinner and so we're going tomeet him and his wife this
evening.
That'll be fun.
(00:49):
Yeah, which is about withtraffic about an hour away.
Okay, so we'll be doing thatthis evening.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, you're able to like cut your own bangs.
Most of us I can tell you.
I can attest to the fact thatwe are not.
I don't even know if I've evertold you, but my freshman year
of college, my best girlfriend,mari she, first of all, she has
just like this beautiful, thick,dark hair, gorgeous, right,
she's half Japanese, half Irish.
(01:17):
Oh yeah, it's beautiful.
And so we decided she neededbangs.
So in my 18 year old lack ofany kind of training, I wet her
bangs and her hair already hasvolume.
So I wet her bangs down and Ilike cut them across, like
(01:38):
straight across above hereyebrow.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Those son of a bitch is Did you happen to pull on
them when you cut them?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I sure did no tension and she and then what do you do
?
I did one fell swoop acrosswith the scissors and she just
looked at me and she goes Tethy,dan, and she has a very
specific way of saying my name,that just it just sounds like
Mari and I was like, oh shit,she had to wear a five-year-old.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I remember so, when I was younger, my mom's friend.
It was just like me, my mom, mysister, my brother and then my
mom's friend.
We lived in this cute littleblue house and we came home one
day and my mom's friend waswearing we call it like a du-rag
, you know, like a bandana, likea du-rag.
Yeah, yeah like like she hadbeen cleaning or something you
(02:27):
know.
So like to get, not get asked.
I'm like, oh, have you beencleaning?
And she was like I don't wantto talk about it and she's so
nice.
And I was like I've never seenher like that and I was like mom
, something's wrong with her.
Like with Jen, like something'swrong.
And mom was like what'd you doto your hair?
She knew immediately she wastrying to cut her bangs, since
she kept getting them uneven,uneven.
They were like an inch long andthey stood straight out.
(02:50):
Thankfully, thankfully, theyboth worked in at like, uh,
industrial plant, okay, energyplant, so she wore a hard hat.
She worked out in the field,she wore a hard hat.
So so, like she didn't, have it, but like, yeah, she goes out
socially for a while.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, no, mari was a freshman in college.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
There was no, you know coverage At least all her
kids.
She was an adult.
We also tried to do that likedie.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Do you remember those like temporary dies?
Yes, well, like it didn'treally stay in hers that long,
but I have blonde hair and so Itried to do like a strawberry
blonde.
It was like catastrophe, I betit's so funny.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
My mom like she would like cut her own hair and stuff
, and I'm like I'm a hairdressermom like, stop doing that, like
you know, like, and she's likeI think I want bangs.
I'm like, please don't cut yourown bangs, because when I was
younger she cut my bangs and itwas kind of like she tilted her
head sideways when she cut themand so like they would like
angle, but they weren't a sidesweep at the time of the 90s, so
(03:58):
it was just like stair steps onmy forehead.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
but yeah, I think everybody must have like the
bangs things, because my momtook Lily once to a hairdresser
and they cut her and she had atthat time it's not really now,
but it was like poker straightand they cut it like straight
across and Lily has eyes thatturn up a little bit.
I thought she looked kind ofAsian, like yeah, with the like
(04:25):
the tighter.
I thought it was cute.
She was horrified and she waspretty young, but she was so
good for her that's so funny,that's so funny.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Well, y'all had a lot going on last week.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I know.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
So if anyone noticed that we skipped a week, there
was a hurricane, yeah there wasa hurricane.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
We got lucky.
Knock on wood again, I think it.
We had some fear that it wasgoing to come closer.
It really hit more towardscedar key, but I will say it was
pretty devastating to myneighborhood.
I live in a neighborhood calledShore Acres and it's all over
the news so I think I saw astatistic that half of the
(05:07):
people who live in Chorakers arenot able to be in their house.
So the flooding it wasn't likea category four where the storm
and the wind and everything itwasn't scary, but it was water
damage.
We had high tide, high tide, aking tide, I guess they call it,
combined with when it wasparallel to St Petersburg.
(05:29):
So it's really sad.
Doug and I went for a walk theother day.
Luckily I buried the lead.
Our neighborhood seems to be onhigher ground so we did not get
any water in our house.
But Doug and I went on a walkthe other day through Chorakers
and it's devastating.
That's so sad.
It's really really sad.
So we did skip the week butwe're back now.
(05:50):
Yeah, I see that there'sanother hurricane kind of out
coming from.
It's still out way in theAtlantic.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
But yeah, we have the hurricanes here too, on the
Gulf Coast and you guys get alot of hurricane scare.
We do, and this month is thelast hurricane that hit us and
the last major one before thatis in September.
So September is the month herethat always makes me super
nervous.
So we've got everything to takecare of.
(06:24):
We've got our gas, we've gotour generators, we have a switch
on our house, so we're prepped,but still, you just never know.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And the thing that I was surprised about.
I don't know why I wassurprised, but there were at
least two that I know of housesthat completely burned down in
Chorakers I've heard so thisshould be correct.
I mean, this is just me hearingand probably not accurate in
any way, shape or form thatelectric cars mixed with salt
(06:58):
water in a garage.
I have no idea if that's whathappened to these homes, but I
have heard that that's a badthing.
And then I had a client theother day tell me that their
dishwasher they had water thereout of their home but that the
dishwasher was acting crazy.
They had to break the power tothe dishwasher because it was
going on the fritz.
And one of the houses wasconcrete block with a metal roof
(07:22):
, so that's like an oven whenthe fire starts, you know?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, in Farno.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, really sad.
So yeah, but on happier newswell, happier or sadder news, I
don't know how to introduce that.
But on different news, I wantto talk about what you've been
up to a little bit before webreak into our topic with grief
coaching.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yes, so we are now offering grief coaching through
KDM.
I've been doing it on the sidehere in Alabama.
We're offering those virtualservices through KDM, so I'm
really excited about that.
You know, I had a really hardtime this past I'd say two years
with personal loss and sonavigating through that with the
(08:06):
help of therapy and a griefcoach Also, it really just lit a
fire under my butt that this issomething that I would like to
help others with.
You know a lot of people thinkthat you should just act like
you're not grieving or, you know, push those emotions down and
(08:27):
things like that.
And that's not the case.
You know you have to feel thosefeels and then you know, see
what your new life is after thatloss, because your life is
forever changed to the momentthat you lose someone that you
love.
It's a whole new life, whetheryou realize it or not at the
time.
And I feel like a lot of peopledon't know how to grieve because
(08:49):
they've been taught, you know,to subdue those emotions.
Or their friends might bearound in the first week or two
after they've lost that person,but then they feel like they're
on their own and they just don'tknow what they're.
You know what they're doing andthey're.
They're kind of flailing outthere in the waters.
So yeah, I'm really excited tobe able to help others and help
(09:10):
them just restore their livesand work through that grief and
and move forward, not on,because you never move on from
that level, but one that you domove forward with your life and
hope to help them make somepositive impacts.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
So kind of reimagine what your next part of your life
looks like.
Right, yeah, yep, and then youmade a beautiful resource, so
are you going to put that likelink?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
in our turn notes, so everyone will have access to
that.
Yeah, okay, good, good, goodGood.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Good, well, so today, diving right in Today, we're
going to talk about narcissisticpersonality disorder, which
we've had an episode on before.
However, there's been so muchbuzz around this topic and I see
it brought up incredibly oftenin sessions.
Yeah, I mean, it's flung aroundall the time.
(09:59):
Well, they're narcissistic.
They're being narcissistic,right?
So oftentimes they're.
I have noticed psychologyconcepts that catch on and then
people begin to over apply it.
So, for example, I know you'veheard people say, like I know,
I'm just so OCD, or they're justso OCD, right, and they're
referencing obsessive compulsivedisorder Just because they like
(10:23):
to have their room clean, right.
Yes, exactly.
I see it with parents who arelike you know, their kids are
lining up their little toyfigurines and like they're just
so OCD.
I'm like no, no, no, thatdoesn't, that does not meet the
criteria.
So in most cases people are notmeeting the criteria for OCD
when they're applying that.
(10:44):
I see it with ADHD.
A lot People are like, oh, I'mforgetful, or oh, they're hyper,
and they say they're so ADHD,right.
Bipolar is another one.
That one really caught fire andthen people were really
labeling themselves and thenlabeling people they know as
bipolar.
So, folks, these are veryspecific diagnoses and in order
(11:09):
to qualify for them they requirea specific intensity and
frequency of symptoms, and sothe label narcissist is widely
deployed to refer to people whoappear full of themselves, right
?
So, and there's a growing sensethat narcissism is on the rise
around the world, especiallyamong young people.
(11:31):
But you know, psychologicalresearch does not support that.
Yeah, so, and I really feellike it can be very dangerous
and negligent to over diagnosepeople.
Listen, if we're diagnosing,misdiagnosing somebody with
bipolar, for example, moodstabilizers as a medication are
no joke yeah, we do not want tomisdiagnose somebody.
(11:57):
So, and we're really learningnow more that a lot of times the
behaviors are trauma responses.
I can't stress that enough.
So I think we've talked aboutit a little bit before.
But I wish I could go back inmy own career as a therapist and
really look at the amount oftimes that I sort of qualified
(12:18):
people for a diagnosis that Iwould like to reassess and see
if what was actually going onwas on process trauma.
You know, I really really winceat sometimes what I think was
my attitude of assuming thatpeople had a personality
disorder, for example, but itcould have been a history of
trauma that wasn't beingattended to and wasn't processed
(12:41):
.
So that's an importantdifferentiation.
We thought that it would be agood idea to just go like go
back over narcissism versusnarcissistic personality
disorder, because overall, Iwant us to be as diligent as
possible about not rushing todiagnose people and really
looking at each personindividually, looking at them
(13:03):
comprehensively to ensure thatthey're getting the most
individualized care possible.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, and I feel like that's where people get
confused, as how you weretalking about narcissism, like
narcissistic traits andnarcissistic personality
disorder.
It's two, several things youcan someone can have
narcissistic traits and not havenarcissistic personality
disorder.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Fully, yes, and, by the way, probably lots do.
There's part of our verysurvival that requires us to
feel narcissistic at times,right?
I mean, that's how we operateto move forward.
So narcissism's most approachand this is another kind of
concept that I don't think istalked about that often but I
(13:49):
think should be that really,narcissism is most appropriately
considered on a spectrum.
So according to psychologytoday I was looking at this the
trait is normally distributed onthe spectrum in a population
with most people scoring nearthe middle and then there's a
(14:09):
few people on either extreme.
So the narcissistic personalityinventory, that's the scale,
the NPI.
It's used to measure thosetraits.
And narcissism is characterizedby a grandiose sense of
self-importance, a lack ofempathy for others, a need for
excessive admiration.
Those are the things they'relooking at on the scale, right?
(14:31):
I believe that one's unique anddeserving like special
treatment.
But if we look at it as aspectrum and then we're not
pathologizing everybody into, oh, they have narcissistic
personality disorder, becausethat's just not the case.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Right, absolutely, and it's important to know that
there are two types ofnarcissism.
There's adaptive and maladaptive, so this is going to help show
the difference betweenproductive and unproductive
aspects of narcissism.
So what we're saying is not allnarcissism is the same.
Adaptive narcissism refers toaspects of narcissism that can
(15:07):
be actually helpful, unlike highself-confidence, self-reliance
and the ability to celebrateyourself yeah, those are good
things.
Maladaptive narcissism isconnected to traits that don't
serve you and can negativelyimpact how you relate to
yourself and to other people.
So, for example, you knowentitlement, aggression and the
(15:29):
tendency to take advantage ofothers.
So this is what people arealways shouting narcissist when
they see this trait in someone.
This would be associated withsymptoms of narcissistic
personality disorder or NPD, andwhen most people talk about
narcissism, they're usuallyreferring you know, referencing
(15:50):
the types that are under themaladaptive umbrella.
So the five types of narcissismassociated as maladaptive are
overt narcissism, which we'regoing to go through each of
these in detail, but overtnarcissism, covert narcissism
(16:10):
and antagonistic narcissism,communal narcissism and
malignant narcissism.
Tongue tie.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, and overt is usually associated with NPD, so
it's sometimes referred to asgrandiose narcissism, which I
referenced a little bit earlier.
So they're more likely to feelgood about themselves OK and
less likely to experienceuncomfortable emotions like
sadness, worry and loneliness,which is kind of interesting,
(16:40):
yeah.
So people with overt narcissismmay also tend to overestimate
their own abilities andintelligence, and I do see that
in session a lot.
I'm just saying so someone withovert narcissism we're both
tongue tied today might comeacross as outgoing, arrogant,
(17:02):
entitled, overbearing, having anexaggerated self-image, needing
to be praised and admired,exploitative, competitive and
really lacking empathy.
So that's kind of what I thinkmost people think of when they
think of narcissism is the overt.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
And then covert is also known as vulnerable
narcissism.
So expressions of lowself-esteem, higher likelihood
of experiencing anxiety,depression and shame Someone
that's avoidant the introverts,insecurity or low confidence.
(17:41):
They might be defensive as well.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's an interesting one.
Most people miss that.
That is, some narcissisticbehaviors when they're covert,
and then antagonistic.
Antagonistic is a subtype ofovert, so that's really arrogant
.
Tendency to take advantage ofothers, tendency to compete with
(18:03):
others.
So we're not talking aboutpeople who are just competitive
right, like let's, yeah, right,they need to have some of the
other things that I'm talkingabout rivalry, focused,
disagreeable and prone to argue.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Which these are the symptoms that allow people are
screaming narcissists.
When they see this in somebody,they might just see one of
those things and they'rescreaming it.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
You know the whole list guys.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
We need multiple things from this list to make it
make sense, right.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Because there's so much to unpack.
I mean, like I'm a verycompetitive person, I am not
antagonistic, right, I don't.
I'm not disagreeable, I'm notprone to argue, I do want to win
.
So it doesn't mean that itescalates me to being an
antagonistic narcissist.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Right, right.
And then there's communal,which is another subtype of
overt, but it's opposite ofantagonistic.
Okay, so this would be when youbecome easily morally outraged.
Describe themselves asempathetic and generous.
They react strongly to thingsthey see as unfair.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, so I'm trying to think of a good example of
what that looks like for people.
But you know people who arereally far right and left in
their beliefs, I would say likealmost extremist in what they
think is morally accurate andthey think everybody else is
(19:39):
wrong.
That's what I think falls undercommunal.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I would also say like someone that donates money to
charity but then wants everybodyto know.
Oh, yes, oh, that's so good,right, I mean, you see that a
lot.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
That's really good example.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
For, like, the people that like will video themselves
on TikTok.
Like giving a homeless personyou know a meal and then they
upload it to the internet.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, I'm like, right , do that.
That's a really good example,right.
And then the last.
The fifth one that we weretalking about is malignant.
This is the dog down one, right, yeah, dirty dog down, dirty
down.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, dirty down.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, it's severe Dirty, so it's dirty.
This is when people arevindictive, sadistic.
They get enjoyment out of painthat other people are
experienced.
They're aggressive in theirinteractions with other people.
They often, I think, experience, not, I think I know, a
(20:51):
paranoia or worry about threats.
Yeah, that one's, you know thatis screaming at ya.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, and you know, listening to this, you know
again, I'm not a therapist, butI have recently experienced some
narcissistic traits fromsomebody that I know and I
really think that maybe therapythey need to get into that,
because I feel like they mightbe able to be diagnosed with MPD
(21:25):
, which is so sad, because youjust want the best for everybody
, but sometimes you gotta takecare of yourself, and I just.
It's hard, though, becausepeople that truly have MPD don't
think that they do or theymight know that they do, but
then if they get it, you know,get it worked out with a
(21:45):
therapist.
They can't continue thatbehavior, right?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
So I think my kind of go-to intervention, because as
a therapist it is also verydifficult working and there are
some therapists who really loveworking in that grind.
But I find it difficult when,especially in couples work, when
(22:09):
I see that behavior from onecouple to the other.
I mean I don't find itdifficult to call it out and
point it out because you knowthat's easy for me.
Yeah, I was like no, I'mperfectly fine with that, but it
is difficult to stomach, right.
But what I've tried to do alittle bit more now is kind of
what I was referencing at thebeginning of the podcast is
(22:32):
trying to see what is going onunderneath that personality
disorder and is their traumasthat are happening.
I would that person if I'mseeing them for couples really
benefit from something like EMDRwith an individual therapist
and it's just, it's a real, youknow work, a creative, you know
(22:55):
to try to get that person onboard to feel like that's
something that they would bewilling to do.
So that is the struggle youknow.
And then I want to say a quicklittle blurb just about like
narcissistic abuse, because I do.
That is the world that I workin with couple stuff, so that's
(23:17):
difficult to explain or makesense of when you're in the
middle of it.
So people who've beennarcissistically abused, they
tend to feel incredibly alone,hopeless, helpless, you know,
and they really a lot of timeshave a foggy understanding of
what's happening.
I do a lot of education,psychoeducation, with clients
when I'm meeting with themindividually, to help them
(23:39):
understand that narcissisticabuse is actually happening yeah
, you know, and they may not beaware of the fact that there's a
name for what they'reexperienced.
So recovering from thisinsidious type of abuse is not
only possible but it's reallynecessary in order to regain a
sense of reality and to stop thecycle of being idealized,
(24:00):
devalued, discarded, idealized,devalued, discarded.
So we really like hope thatpeople who are dealing with
narcissistic parents or childrenor partners or friends or
bosses do some work on how toempower themselves to get out of
(24:23):
that relationship.
So in order to stop thepatterns of self-sacrifice and
subjugation, here are kind ofthe eight steps, and then I have
a worksheet that you can linkto that people can download.
That goes into a lot moredetail, but the eight steps of
(24:45):
sort of dealing with somebodyare educating yourself about NPD
, building your own self-esteem,speaking up for yourself,
setting clear boundaries, whichthat takes practice and some
specificity, that if youdownload the worksheet, I give
some real, specific things to do, practice skills to stay calm.
(25:08):
That's important because lotsof times narcissists want to
activate you, find a supportsystem, insist on immediate
action from the person thatyou're dealing with, not
promises, and then understandthat the narcissistic person
probably or does needprofessional help.
(25:32):
So anyway, that's just and theyhave to be willing to get that
help.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
You can make somebody you know you can lead a horse
to water right.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, and so that's why sometimes I think, bringing
somebody if you can get them tocome in for couples counseling
and you're going to see atherapist who is skilled at
working, identifying and workingwith couples where one person
has NPD, you have a betteropportunity for that person to
seek help.
The hope is that the therapistis able to kind of work their
(26:02):
magic to get that client onboard.
Yeah, and I've seen it happen.
It can happen.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Oh, yeah, for sure, yeah, so I will link your
resource for narcissisticpersonality disorder.
I'll link my resource for griefcoaching in the show notes.
Anything else you want to addbefore we get to our asked and
answered?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I think that's it All right?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Well, we do have one asked and answered from
anonymous says hi, Kathy, Danand Jess.
I lost my dad last year.
We had a tumultuousrelationship and emotional abuse
played a huge part in myupbringing and ran into my
adulthood.
I loved my dad and do miss him,but I feel guilty that I also
(26:46):
feel a sense of relief.
Is this normal?
Any advice on how to moveforward?
Yeah, yeah, For me.
For me, since we're talkingabout this subject, I feel like
and you can correct me if I'mwrong but you know, grief shows
itself in many different forms.
(27:06):
You can grieve because you lovethat person, no-transcript.
You can also have a senserelief that the abuse will not
continue.
So, you separate that.
You separate that into twoseparate emotions.
You love the person and youhate the behavior.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Mm-hmm, Good point you know.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
So, yeah, I think that I think that is normal to
feel that that way you're, youare relieved that you will no
longer have that emotional abuseput on you, but that doesn't
mean that you didn't love your,your dad, and that you don't
miss him.
Yeah, like that's normal Adviceon how to move forward grief
(27:47):
coaching and or therapy.
There was some emotional abusethere.
So if there's obviously sometrauma, so that's where and
that's where a counselor, atherapist, would come into play
and then the grief coaching willhelp you with, you know, loss
moving forward.
So I think both would be good.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, and you know, I think it's.
I, I don't know, I haven't lostyou know somebody that I think
there is A Sadness when you'vehad a broken relationship with
somebody that should have beenproviding you as a child a
(28:28):
nurturing, safe place but didnot, mm-hmm, that there's a
childhood wound there, yeah, andI think there's a relief that
the, that the abuse can'tcontinue, but there's a sadness
that it will never really behealed With them or that they
can't go up differently for youand that opportunity is now no
(28:52):
longer there.
When you do somebody that seems, you know that's hard.
I agree.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
So there's no need to feel guilty about that sense of
relief.
You obviously are feeling thosefeelings of guilt because you
loved that person.
Yeah, so you do you.
You don't want any, you know,to have any ill will or harm for
them.
So it's normal and actual tohave that feeling.
But again it's okay to berelieved that the abuse won't
(29:20):
continue right, yeah, I Agree.
All right, all right guys.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please, please, please,
leave us a review on ApplePodcasts.
This will help us move up thechart and be more accessible to
new listeners.
Again, you can follow us onInstagram and Facebook.
We will continue to drop tipsand information about upcoming
(29:42):
episodes.
If you have a question for ourass and answered segment, email
us at.
Ask us at spelling the fair teacalm.
Also, check out our website.
Spilling the fair tea calm willcontinue to add resources and
information, and I'm going toadd your narcissistic
personality disorder.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Recyles recovery.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, abuse recovery resource to our website also.
Oh good, and the grief coachingto our website also.
But I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
Be kind to others.
We are your host.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Happy Dan, more and just slow and join us next time
for our chat about Navigatingthe stages of romantic
relationships.
I know I'm excited about thisone.
We'll be breaking it down onesip at a time.
I
Welcome back to Spilling the Fairytale with
therapist Kathy Dan Moore andgrief coach Jess Lowe.
Hey, kathy Dan, I'm so glad tosee you today.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hey, jess it's good to see you.
Your bangs are looking great,by the way.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Well, they're not done right now.
I have so much I have to dothis afternoon and I have to go
somewhere, so I have to fix myhair.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Oh well, I think they look good.
They're good like likeoutgrowth.
You know Bangs are always toughwith how much they should grow
out.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Mine grows really fast.
It's a small way to go ofperfection.
Yeah, mine grow really fast.
I'll probably be cutting them.
If I just had to keep them,I'll probably be cutting them
sometime next week.
But we have Jason has acustomer coming in town, he's at
the beach this week with hisfamily and he wants to meet for
dinner and so we're going tomeet him and his wife this
evening.
That'll be fun.
(00:49):
Yeah, which is about withtraffic about an hour away.
Okay, so we'll be doing thatthis evening.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, you're able to like cut your own bangs.
Most of us I can tell you.
I can attest to the fact thatwe are not.
I don't even know if I've evertold you, but my freshman year
of college, my best girlfriend,mari she, first of all, she has
just like this beautiful, thick,dark hair, gorgeous, right,
she's half Japanese, half Irish.
(01:17):
Oh yeah, it's beautiful.
And so we decided she neededbangs.
So in my 18 year old lack ofany kind of training, I wet her
bangs and her hair already hasvolume.
So I wet her bangs down and Ilike cut them across, like
(01:38):
straight across above hereyebrow.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Those son of a bitch is Did you happen to pull on
them when you cut them?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I sure did no tension and she and then what do you do
?
I did one fell swoop acrosswith the scissors and she just
looked at me and she goes Tethy,dan, and she has a very
specific way of saying my name,that just it just sounds like
Mari and I was like, oh shit,she had to wear a five-year-old.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I remember so, when I was younger, my mom's friend.
It was just like me, my mom, mysister, my brother and then my
mom's friend.
We lived in this cute littleblue house and we came home one
day and my mom's friend waswearing we call it like a du-rag
, you know, like a bandana, likea du-rag.
Yeah, yeah like like she hadbeen cleaning or something you
(02:27):
know.
So like to get, not get asked.
I'm like, oh, have you beencleaning?
And she was like I don't wantto talk about it and she's so
nice.
And I was like I've never seenher like that and I was like mom
, something's wrong with her.
Like with Jen, like something'swrong.
And mom was like what'd you doto your hair?
She knew immediately she wastrying to cut her bangs, since
she kept getting them uneven,uneven.
They were like an inch long andthey stood straight out.
(02:50):
Thankfully, thankfully, theyboth worked in at like, uh,
industrial plant, okay, energyplant, so she wore a hard hat.
She worked out in the field,she wore a hard hat.
So so, like she didn't, have it, but like, yeah, she goes out
socially for a while.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, no, mari was a freshman in college.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
There was no, you know coverage At least all her
kids.
She was an adult.
We also tried to do that likedie.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Do you remember those like temporary dies?
Yes, well, like it didn'treally stay in hers that long,
but I have blonde hair and so Itried to do like a strawberry
blonde.
It was like catastrophe, I betit's so funny.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
My mom like she would like cut her own hair and stuff
, and I'm like I'm a hairdressermom like, stop doing that, like
you know, like, and she's likeI think I want bangs.
I'm like, please don't cut yourown bangs, because when I was
younger she cut my bangs and itwas kind of like she tilted her
head sideways when she cut themand so like they would like
angle, but they weren't a sidesweep at the time of the 90s, so
(03:58):
it was just like stair steps onmy forehead.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
but yeah, I think everybody must have like the
bangs things, because my momtook Lily once to a hairdresser
and they cut her and she had atthat time it's not really now,
but it was like poker straightand they cut it like straight
across and Lily has eyes thatturn up a little bit.
I thought she looked kind ofAsian, like yeah, with the like
(04:25):
the tighter.
I thought it was cute.
She was horrified and she waspretty young, but she was so
good for her that's so funny,that's so funny.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Well, y'all had a lot going on last week.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I know.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
So if anyone noticed that we skipped a week, there
was a hurricane, yeah there wasa hurricane.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
We got lucky.
Knock on wood again, I think it.
We had some fear that it wasgoing to come closer.
It really hit more towardscedar key, but I will say it was
pretty devastating to myneighborhood.
I live in a neighborhood calledShore Acres and it's all over
the news so I think I saw astatistic that half of the
(05:07):
people who live in Chorakers arenot able to be in their house.
So the flooding it wasn't likea category four where the storm
and the wind and everything itwasn't scary, but it was water
damage.
We had high tide, high tide, aking tide, I guess they call it,
combined with when it wasparallel to St Petersburg.
(05:29):
So it's really sad.
Doug and I went for a walk theother day.
Luckily I buried the lead.
Our neighborhood seems to be onhigher ground so we did not get
any water in our house.
But Doug and I went on a walkthe other day through Chorakers
and it's devastating.
That's so sad.
It's really really sad.
So we did skip the week butwe're back now.
(05:50):
Yeah, I see that there'sanother hurricane kind of out
coming from.
It's still out way in theAtlantic.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
But yeah, we have the hurricanes here too, on the
Gulf Coast and you guys get alot of hurricane scare.
We do, and this month is thelast hurricane that hit us and
the last major one before thatis in September.
So September is the month herethat always makes me super
nervous.
So we've got everything to takecare of.
(06:24):
We've got our gas, we've gotour generators, we have a switch
on our house, so we're prepped,but still, you just never know.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And the thing that I was surprised about.
I don't know why I wassurprised, but there were at
least two that I know of housesthat completely burned down in
Chorakers I've heard so thisshould be correct.
I mean, this is just me hearingand probably not accurate in
any way, shape or form thatelectric cars mixed with salt
(06:58):
water in a garage.
I have no idea if that's whathappened to these homes, but I
have heard that that's a badthing.
And then I had a client theother day tell me that their
dishwasher they had water thereout of their home but that the
dishwasher was acting crazy.
They had to break the power tothe dishwasher because it was
going on the fritz.
And one of the houses wasconcrete block with a metal roof
(07:22):
, so that's like an oven whenthe fire starts, you know?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, in Farno.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, really sad.
So yeah, but on happier newswell, happier or sadder news, I
don't know how to introduce that.
But on different news, I wantto talk about what you've been
up to a little bit before webreak into our topic with grief
coaching.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yes, so we are now offering grief coaching through
KDM.
I've been doing it on the sidehere in Alabama.
We're offering those virtualservices through KDM, so I'm
really excited about that.
You know, I had a really hardtime this past I'd say two years
with personal loss and sonavigating through that with the
(08:06):
help of therapy and a griefcoach Also, it really just lit a
fire under my butt that this issomething that I would like to
help others with.
You know a lot of people thinkthat you should just act like
you're not grieving or, you know, push those emotions down and
(08:27):
things like that.
And that's not the case.
You know you have to feel thosefeels and then you know, see
what your new life is after thatloss, because your life is
forever changed to the momentthat you lose someone that you
love.
It's a whole new life, whetheryou realize it or not at the
time.
And I feel like a lot of peopledon't know how to grieve because
(08:49):
they've been taught, you know,to subdue those emotions.
Or their friends might bearound in the first week or two
after they've lost that person,but then they feel like they're
on their own and they just don'tknow what they're.
You know what they're doing andthey're.
They're kind of flailing outthere in the waters.
So yeah, I'm really excited tobe able to help others and help
(09:10):
them just restore their livesand work through that grief and
and move forward, not on,because you never move on from
that level, but one that you domove forward with your life and
hope to help them make somepositive impacts.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
So kind of reimagine what your next part of your life
looks like.
Right, yeah, yep, and then youmade a beautiful resource, so
are you going to put that likelink?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
in our turn notes, so everyone will have access to
that.
Yeah, okay, good, good, goodGood.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Good, well, so today, diving right in Today, we're
going to talk about narcissisticpersonality disorder, which
we've had an episode on before.
However, there's been so muchbuzz around this topic and I see
it brought up incredibly oftenin sessions.
Yeah, I mean, it's flung aroundall the time.
(09:59):
Well, they're narcissistic.
They're being narcissistic,right?
So oftentimes they're.
I have noticed psychologyconcepts that catch on and then
people begin to over apply it.
So, for example, I know you'veheard people say, like I know,
I'm just so OCD, or they're justso OCD, right, and they're
referencing obsessive compulsivedisorder Just because they like
(10:23):
to have their room clean, right.
Yes, exactly.
I see it with parents who arelike you know, their kids are
lining up their little toyfigurines and like they're just
so OCD.
I'm like no, no, no, thatdoesn't, that does not meet the
criteria.
So in most cases people are notmeeting the criteria for OCD
when they're applying that.
(10:44):
I see it with ADHD.
A lot People are like, oh, I'mforgetful, or oh, they're hyper,
and they say they're so ADHD,right.
Bipolar is another one.
That one really caught fire andthen people were really
labeling themselves and thenlabeling people they know as
bipolar.
So, folks, these are veryspecific diagnoses and in order
(11:09):
to qualify for them they requirea specific intensity and
frequency of symptoms, and sothe label narcissist is widely
deployed to refer to people whoappear full of themselves, right
?
So, and there's a growing sensethat narcissism is on the rise
around the world, especiallyamong young people.
(11:31):
But you know, psychologicalresearch does not support that.
Yeah, so, and I really feellike it can be very dangerous
and negligent to over diagnosepeople.
Listen, if we're diagnosing,misdiagnosing somebody with
bipolar, for example, moodstabilizers as a medication are
no joke yeah, we do not want tomisdiagnose somebody.
(11:57):
So, and we're really learningnow more that a lot of times the
behaviors are trauma responses.
I can't stress that enough.
So I think we've talked aboutit a little bit before.
But I wish I could go back inmy own career as a therapist and
really look at the amount oftimes that I sort of qualified
(12:18):
people for a diagnosis that Iwould like to reassess and see
if what was actually going onwas on process trauma.
You know, I really really winceat sometimes what I think was
my attitude of assuming thatpeople had a personality
disorder, for example, but itcould have been a history of
trauma that wasn't beingattended to and wasn't processed
(12:41):
.
So that's an importantdifferentiation.
We thought that it would be agood idea to just go like go
back over narcissism versusnarcissistic personality
disorder, because overall, Iwant us to be as diligent as
possible about not rushing todiagnose people and really
looking at each personindividually, looking at them
(13:03):
comprehensively to ensure thatthey're getting the most
individualized care possible.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, and I feel like that's where people get
confused, as how you weretalking about narcissism, like
narcissistic traits andnarcissistic personality
disorder.
It's two, several things youcan someone can have
narcissistic traits and not havenarcissistic personality
disorder.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Fully, yes, and, by the way, probably lots do.
There's part of our verysurvival that requires us to
feel narcissistic at times,right?
I mean, that's how we operateto move forward.
So narcissism's most approachand this is another kind of
concept that I don't think istalked about that often but I
(13:49):
think should be that really,narcissism is most appropriately
considered on a spectrum.
So according to psychologytoday I was looking at this the
trait is normally distributed onthe spectrum in a population
with most people scoring nearthe middle and then there's a
(14:09):
few people on either extreme.
So the narcissistic personalityinventory, that's the scale,
the NPI.
It's used to measure thosetraits.
And narcissism is characterizedby a grandiose sense of
self-importance, a lack ofempathy for others, a need for
excessive admiration.
Those are the things they'relooking at on the scale, right?
(14:31):
I believe that one's unique anddeserving like special
treatment.
But if we look at it as aspectrum and then we're not
pathologizing everybody into, oh, they have narcissistic
personality disorder, becausethat's just not the case.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Right, absolutely, and it's important to know that
there are two types ofnarcissism.
There's adaptive and maladaptive, so this is going to help show
the difference betweenproductive and unproductive
aspects of narcissism.
So what we're saying is not allnarcissism is the same.
Adaptive narcissism refers toaspects of narcissism that can
(15:07):
be actually helpful, unlike highself-confidence, self-reliance
and the ability to celebrateyourself yeah, those are good
things.
Maladaptive narcissism isconnected to traits that don't
serve you and can negativelyimpact how you relate to
yourself and to other people.
So, for example, you knowentitlement, aggression and the
(15:29):
tendency to take advantage ofothers.
So this is what people arealways shouting narcissist when
they see this trait in someone.
This would be associated withsymptoms of narcissistic
personality disorder or NPD, andwhen most people talk about
narcissism, they're usuallyreferring you know, referencing
(15:50):
the types that are under themaladaptive umbrella.
So the five types of narcissismassociated as maladaptive are
overt narcissism, which we'regoing to go through each of
these in detail, but overtnarcissism, covert narcissism
(16:10):
and antagonistic narcissism,communal narcissism and
malignant narcissism.
Tongue tie.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, and overt is usually associated with NPD, so
it's sometimes referred to asgrandiose narcissism, which I
referenced a little bit earlier.
So they're more likely to feelgood about themselves OK and
less likely to experienceuncomfortable emotions like
sadness, worry and loneliness,which is kind of interesting,
(16:40):
yeah.
So people with overt narcissismmay also tend to overestimate
their own abilities andintelligence, and I do see that
in session a lot.
I'm just saying so someone withovert narcissism we're both
tongue tied today might comeacross as outgoing, arrogant,
(17:02):
entitled, overbearing, having anexaggerated self-image, needing
to be praised and admired,exploitative, competitive and
really lacking empathy.
So that's kind of what I thinkmost people think of when they
think of narcissism is the overt.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
And then covert is also known as vulnerable
narcissism.
So expressions of lowself-esteem, higher likelihood
of experiencing anxiety,depression and shame Someone
that's avoidant the introverts,insecurity or low confidence.
(17:41):
They might be defensive as well.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's an interesting one.
Most people miss that.
That is, some narcissisticbehaviors when they're covert,
and then antagonistic.
Antagonistic is a subtype ofovert, so that's really arrogant
.
Tendency to take advantage ofothers, tendency to compete with
(18:03):
others.
So we're not talking aboutpeople who are just competitive
right, like let's, yeah, right,they need to have some of the
other things that I'm talkingabout rivalry, focused,
disagreeable and prone to argue.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Which these are the symptoms that allow people are
screaming narcissists.
When they see this in somebody,they might just see one of
those things and they'rescreaming it.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
You know the whole list guys.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
We need multiple things from this list to make it
make sense, right.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Because there's so much to unpack.
I mean, like I'm a verycompetitive person, I am not
antagonistic, right, I don't.
I'm not disagreeable, I'm notprone to argue, I do want to win
.
So it doesn't mean that itescalates me to being an
antagonistic narcissist.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Right, right.
And then there's communal,which is another subtype of
overt, but it's opposite ofantagonistic.
Okay, so this would be when youbecome easily morally outraged.
Describe themselves asempathetic and generous.
They react strongly to thingsthey see as unfair.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, so I'm trying to think of a good example of
what that looks like for people.
But you know people who arereally far right and left in
their beliefs, I would say likealmost extremist in what they
think is morally accurate andthey think everybody else is
(19:39):
wrong.
That's what I think falls undercommunal.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I would also say like someone that donates money to
charity but then wants everybodyto know.
Oh, yes, oh, that's so good,right, I mean, you see that a
lot.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
That's really good example.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
For, like, the people that like will video themselves
on TikTok.
Like giving a homeless personyou know a meal and then they
upload it to the internet.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, I'm like, right , do that.
That's a really good example,right.
And then the last.
The fifth one that we weretalking about is malignant.
This is the dog down one, right, yeah, dirty dog down, dirty
down.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, dirty down.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, it's severe Dirty, so it's dirty.
This is when people arevindictive, sadistic.
They get enjoyment out of painthat other people are
experienced.
They're aggressive in theirinteractions with other people.
They often, I think, experience, not, I think I know, a
(20:51):
paranoia or worry about threats.
Yeah, that one's, you know thatis screaming at ya.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, and you know, listening to this, you know
again, I'm not a therapist, butI have recently experienced some
narcissistic traits fromsomebody that I know and I
really think that maybe therapythey need to get into that,
because I feel like they mightbe able to be diagnosed with MPD
(21:25):
, which is so sad, because youjust want the best for everybody
, but sometimes you gotta takecare of yourself, and I just.
It's hard, though, becausepeople that truly have MPD don't
think that they do or theymight know that they do, but
then if they get it, you know,get it worked out with a
(21:45):
therapist.
They can't continue thatbehavior, right?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
So I think my kind of go-to intervention, because as
a therapist it is also verydifficult working and there are
some therapists who really loveworking in that grind.
But I find it difficult when,especially in couples work, when
(22:09):
I see that behavior from onecouple to the other.
I mean I don't find itdifficult to call it out and
point it out because you knowthat's easy for me.
Yeah, I was like no, I'mperfectly fine with that, but it
is difficult to stomach, right.
But what I've tried to do alittle bit more now is kind of
what I was referencing at thebeginning of the podcast is
(22:32):
trying to see what is going onunderneath that personality
disorder and is their traumasthat are happening.
I would that person if I'mseeing them for couples really
benefit from something like EMDRwith an individual therapist
and it's just, it's a real, youknow work, a creative, you know
(22:55):
to try to get that person onboard to feel like that's
something that they would bewilling to do.
So that is the struggle youknow.
And then I want to say a quicklittle blurb just about like
narcissistic abuse, because I do.
That is the world that I workin with couple stuff, so that's
(23:17):
difficult to explain or makesense of when you're in the
middle of it.
So people who've beennarcissistically abused, they
tend to feel incredibly alone,hopeless, helpless, you know,
and they really a lot of timeshave a foggy understanding of
what's happening.
I do a lot of education,psychoeducation, with clients
when I'm meeting with themindividually, to help them
(23:39):
understand that narcissisticabuse is actually happening yeah
, you know, and they may not beaware of the fact that there's a
name for what they'reexperienced.
So recovering from thisinsidious type of abuse is not
only possible but it's reallynecessary in order to regain a
sense of reality and to stop thecycle of being idealized,
(24:00):
devalued, discarded, idealized,devalued, discarded.
So we really like hope thatpeople who are dealing with
narcissistic parents or childrenor partners or friends or
bosses do some work on how toempower themselves to get out of
(24:23):
that relationship.
So in order to stop thepatterns of self-sacrifice and
subjugation, here are kind ofthe eight steps, and then I have
a worksheet that you can linkto that people can download.
That goes into a lot moredetail, but the eight steps of
(24:45):
sort of dealing with somebodyare educating yourself about NPD
, building your own self-esteem,speaking up for yourself,
setting clear boundaries, whichthat takes practice and some
specificity, that if youdownload the worksheet, I give
some real, specific things to do, practice skills to stay calm.
(25:08):
That's important because lotsof times narcissists want to
activate you, find a supportsystem, insist on immediate
action from the person thatyou're dealing with, not
promises, and then understandthat the narcissistic person
probably or does needprofessional help.
(25:32):
So anyway, that's just and theyhave to be willing to get that
help.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
You can make somebody you know you can lead a horse
to water right.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, and so that's why sometimes I think, bringing
somebody if you can get them tocome in for couples counseling
and you're going to see atherapist who is skilled at
working, identifying and workingwith couples where one person
has NPD, you have a betteropportunity for that person to
seek help.
The hope is that the therapistis able to kind of work their
(26:02):
magic to get that client onboard.
Yeah, and I've seen it happen.
It can happen.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Oh, yeah, for sure, yeah, so I will link your
resource for narcissisticpersonality disorder.
I'll link my resource for griefcoaching in the show notes.
Anything else you want to addbefore we get to our asked and
answered?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I think that's it All right?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Well, we do have one asked and answered from
anonymous says hi, Kathy, Danand Jess.
I lost my dad last year.
We had a tumultuousrelationship and emotional abuse
played a huge part in myupbringing and ran into my
adulthood.
I loved my dad and do miss him,but I feel guilty that I also
(26:46):
feel a sense of relief.
Is this normal?
Any advice on how to moveforward?
Yeah, yeah, For me.
For me, since we're talkingabout this subject, I feel like
and you can correct me if I'mwrong but you know, grief shows
itself in many different forms.
(27:06):
You can grieve because you lovethat person, no-transcript.
You can also have a senserelief that the abuse will not
continue.
So, you separate that.
You separate that into twoseparate emotions.
You love the person and youhate the behavior.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Mm-hmm, Good point you know.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
So, yeah, I think that I think that is normal to
feel that that way you're, youare relieved that you will no
longer have that emotional abuseput on you, but that doesn't
mean that you didn't love your,your dad, and that you don't
miss him.
Yeah, like that's normal Adviceon how to move forward grief
(27:47):
coaching and or therapy.
There was some emotional abusethere.
So if there's obviously sometrauma, so that's where and
that's where a counselor, atherapist, would come into play
and then the grief coaching willhelp you with, you know, loss
moving forward.
So I think both would be good.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, and you know, I think it's.
I, I don't know, I haven't lostyou know somebody that I think
there is A Sadness when you'vehad a broken relationship with
somebody that should have beenproviding you as a child a
(28:28):
nurturing, safe place but didnot, mm-hmm, that there's a
childhood wound there, yeah, andI think there's a relief that
the, that the abuse can'tcontinue, but there's a sadness
that it will never really behealed With them or that they
can't go up differently for youand that opportunity is now no
(28:52):
longer there.
When you do somebody that seems, you know that's hard.
I agree.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
So there's no need to feel guilty about that sense of
relief.
You obviously are feeling thosefeelings of guilt because you
loved that person.
Yeah, so you do you.
You don't want any, you know,to have any ill will or harm for
them.
So it's normal and actual tohave that feeling.
But again it's okay to berelieved that the abuse won't
(29:20):
continue right, yeah, I Agree.
All right, all right guys.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please, please, please,
leave us a review on ApplePodcasts.
This will help us move up thechart and be more accessible to
new listeners.
Again, you can follow us onInstagram and Facebook.
We will continue to drop tipsand information about upcoming
(29:42):
episodes.
If you have a question for ourass and answered segment, email
us at.
Ask us at spelling the fair teacalm.
Also, check out our website.
Spilling the fair tea calm willcontinue to add resources and
information, and I'm going toadd your narcissistic
personality disorder.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Recyles recovery.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, abuse recovery resource to our website also.
Oh good, and the grief coachingto our website also.
But I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
Be kind to others.
We are your host.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Happy Dan, more and just slow and join us next time
for our chat about Navigatingthe stages of romantic
relationships.
I know I'm excited about thisone.
We'll be breaking it down onesip at a time.
I
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