October 13, 2023 • 24 mins
Ever grapple with feelings of shame or guilt? It's an often misunderstood emotional terrain that we're excavating in our enlightening discussion. We're navigating the key differences between these two emotions and their significant impact on self-perception and self-esteem. We unravel the power of guilt as a moral anchor, and reveal the potentially devastating impact of toxic shame.
As we delve deeper, we focus on the critical aspect of managing toxic shame. Discover how mindfulness can aid us in challenging our shame-based thoughts and cultivating healthier thinking habits. We emphasize the importance of fostering a support network, and opening up to a friend, partner, or mental health professional about shame and the journey to overcome unprocessed trauma.
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Book Mentioned in Episode:
Gabor Mate: The Myth of Normal
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DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not replace the advice you may be receiving from a licensed therapist.This podcast and website represents the opinions of KathyDan Moore, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Grief Coach Jess Lowe, and their guests to the show and website. The content here should not be taken as medical advice.
The content here is for informational purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions.Views and opinions expressed in the podcast and website are our own. While we make every effort to ensure that the information we are sharing is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
Privacy is of utmost importance to us. All people, places, and scenarios mentioned in the podcast have been changed to protect patient confidentiality.This website or podcast should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever, including but not limited to establishing “standard of care” in a legal sense or as a basis for expert witness testimony.
No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on the podcast or website.In no way does listening, reading, emailing or interacting on social media with our content establish a doctor-patient relationship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Spilling the Fairty with
Therapist Kathy Dan Moore andGreek Coach Jess hey.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Kathy Dan- hey, jess, I thought you said Greek at
first.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I'm not Greek.
Well, I was in sorority.
That's as great as I was.
That's as great as you get.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
That's so funny.
I'm actually going tomorrow.
I'm leaving to go see Lily forparents weekend at.
Fsu and she is having.
She's loving her sorority,she's an 80-pie and loves it,
and they're having an eventtomorrow night and then on
Saturday they're having a brunchbefore the game.
(00:37):
So I'm going to be going takinghaving a little bit of a window
into her Greek life.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's so cool.
I'm so glad that she's foundher little community there.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I know it makes me so happy and they they already had
to get apartments.
That was the saga of this week,right?
Was the leases for the fall of2024 come out now?
They came out this week andopened up, and she and her
little girlfriends were in lineat like 4.30 in the morning or
(01:07):
something in order to get a QRcode, to get a number, so that
then you can get I don't evenknow.
So she did get an apartment,but I just think that's kind of
crazy that.
So this is like off campushousing yes.
Yes.
So, her sorority, you can'tlive in the house, I think.
I know you can't as a sophomore, I don't know if you can as a
(01:29):
junior, but I think her plan isto try to live in the house her
senior year.
So she needs, but it just seemsearly you know to be getting a
bunch of girls to agree who theywant to live with after they've
only been at school for six orseven weeks, and expecting them
all to be getting along in.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I was like optimistic .
That really is.
That really is.
Well, when I was in my sorority, we didn't have a house, we had
an apartment thing for like wemeet for chapter, because in the
city of Birmingham if more thanfour girls live together, it's
considered a brothel.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So I and since I was in New Orleans, it was the same,
I don't think it was four, butwe had houses.
It was.
Our house was beautiful, Iloved it, but I think just five
or six girls could live in thereand so.
I lived off campus after afreshman year but yes, they had
that same.
I don't know if it's still.
(02:29):
It's a thing.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
It's so insane because all the guys had well,
they didn't have houses.
They would rent a house like anold historical home in
Birmingham.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
But there was like 90 boys.
I mean whoever.
Whoever could fit, they fit.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You know, and I'm sure it was disgusting.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Oh yeah, I could still smell it.
Yeah, it's just, you know that.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I don't know Spale beer smell and like, yeah, I
know I remember.
Although I will say, justlistening to everything she's
doing and just watching herenjoy the process, it has made
me incredibly nostalgic for myexperience at today, yeah.
(03:15):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I'm so happy for her.
I know me too.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Well, all right.
So today we're going to talkabout the difference between
shame and guilt.
Yes, it gets brought up a lotin my sessions by me because I'm
usually trying to help peoplebetter understand their shame
and their toxic shame anddifferentiating that from guilt.
(03:41):
But the two emotions they'reoften confused with one another.
So guilt sounds like that thingyou did was wrong, whereas
shame sounds like, because youdid that thing, you're a bad
person.
Yeah, so guilt can be a reallyhelpful emotion, you know, when
we're maintaining relationshipsit keeps us on track if we've
(04:03):
drifted, you know, from ourmoral standards.
So guilt can be utilized in aproductive way.
But shame can be toxic, mainlyfrom constantly being told that
you're not enough.
So this can be because parentsor peers keep telling you that
and your confidence suffers fromthis sort of deep seated
(04:24):
emotion and it affects the waythat you see yourself.
So a lot of EMDR that I do isaround, you know, residual shame
of things that have happened inpeople's childhood.
So we're going to talk abouthow you conquer that and discuss
a little bit about the.
You know, the main core ofconquering shame starts with
(04:46):
self-compassion.
So Brene Brown, who most peopleknow and we've referenced
probably a couple of times is ashame researcher, and so I'm
going to read this quote by her,because she puts it this way If
you put shame in a Petri dish,it needs three things to grow
exponentially Secrecy, silenceand judgment.
(05:07):
If you put the same amount ofshame in a Petri dish and douse
it with empathy, it can'tsurvive.
And I think that's so powerful.
And she I would encourageanybody to read.
If you're interested in thisparticular topic, read things by
Brene Brown.
She has an amazing TED talk.
I think she has a podcast aswell that I don't have it really
(05:30):
listened to, but she's reallygreat.
She talks about vulnerability.
That's her other big piece,that she's researched a lot.
But you know, toxic shame isdebilitating feeling and it's
this debilitating feeling ofworthlessness and self-loathing.
It can be pretty hard tooperate productively, happily,
joyfully in life if you'reexperiencing toxic shame.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I think yeah, and I think people wonder too, like
how shame becomes toxic, rightyeah?
So the reality is you'veprobably felt and will continue
to feel shame at various timesin your life.
Shame can last a few hours oreven a few days.
Ordinary shame is a feeling inresponse to wrongdoing or
thinking something you believeis immoral.
(06:13):
Usually, ordinary shamedissipates in those few days and
is tied to only one specificevent.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I think about like that feeling.
You get that hotness, you getMm-hmm.
I mean, you get that withembarrassment too.
But like that shame is likethat kind of it almost like
feels like a hot vibration in myhead Just thinking of this.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I remember, okay, I'm y'all, I'm not a
cheater-cheater-punkin'-eater,but like I'm not a
cheater-punkin', applicationtables.
Okay, so this is my table and Iremember, like it was timed
multiplication right, and I wasnot given like my eights, my
sixes, you know, and I remembera wondering I, you know you're
(06:55):
eight years old, You're like.
Oh, they're getting answers.
Couldn't ever see what anyoneelse was had, obviously, but I
always would get that hot feellike like I knew that I
shouldn't have been looking.
Yes, the kind of like ordinaryshame we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
That's a really good example.
I could say that was the extentof the cheating that I've ever
done.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
But you know, you get that hot feeling like oh man,
and then you feel bad and you'relike shut nothing looking.
You've got to say anything andit didn't help me any but still
like oh see my more.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Look like the Spanish teacher freshman year at Tulane
going.
I'm moving you to the otherside of the classroom because I
can see that you're cheating offyour friend Mari.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
That's mine Like guys .
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Spanish wasn't my thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So that's kind of how ordinary shame goes.
That's a little example thatcomes from constantly being told
you're not enough.
It results in negative selftalk that stays with you.
Childhood abuse, neglect, othertraumatic experiences can cause
toxic shame and make us believethat we're not good enough.
(08:08):
Toxic shame can start in theway you were given feedback for
certain incidences as a child,usually by your parent.
For example, if you wet the bed, your parent may have reacted
in one of these two ways.
One, they could have reassuredyou that it was all right and
cleaned it up without making afuss.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Clearly we're stressing that that's the nice
way.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yes, or they lashed out at you and said things like
why do you always do this?
What's wrong with you?
That second reaction wouldprobably have led you to believe
that there was something wrongwith you.
Especially the parent thatyou're supposed to trust and
guide you is telling you there'ssomething wrong with you.
You know, your feeling of shamecan turn into toxic shame when
(08:55):
the second scene keeps repeating.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I don't want parents out there to feel like when we
say this, if you've said that toyour kid at some point, you've
now instilled toxic shame inthem Because we're not talking
about when we've said something.
I don't know if this is forjust my own guilt that I have
for things that I wish I'd saidnicer or more constructive or
more encouraging, or foreverybody else, but I do think
(09:22):
overall, as parents, we havemoments where we say things like
oh my God, what is wrong withyou?
Or something like that.
That is different when it is anisolated incident and when, as
parents, we circle back aroundand say I'm sorry, mommy was
really tired, it's all right,we're cleaning it up.
So there is space in that.
I don't want people to becleaning themselves as parents
(09:44):
now.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah.
So other repeated phrases thatcause toxic shame, depending on
the incident, are why are youdoing it like that?
You're wrong, what were youthinking?
Or you'll never be as good asthem.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
That just breaks my heart.
To you that does yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
If you're told these things often enough, you might
start telling yourself, forexample, I'm not worthy of love.
Yeah, and holding on tofeelings of unworthiness can be
very damaging to your mental andphysical health.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, in chain-based behavior it's been
described I like this one as asburying.
I never know if I it's buryingor burying burying, burying the
bones in the backyard.
So, in other words, when wefeel our behavior is shameful,
(10:37):
we're gonna hide the evidence ofthe crime.
I see that a lot with peoplewho are working on different
addictions.
Right and the shame they havearound it, which then starts the
secrecy, which then starts thatspiral.
So Some of the things arefeeling worthless, worrying what
others might think about you,being afraid that you look
stupid, perfectionism inresponse to fearing failure,
(11:02):
constant negative self-talk andanger in response to shame
triggers.
So toxic shame can be dangerousbecause shame is behind the
symptoms, because that is behindthe symptoms of withdrawal and,
and so the withdrawal lookslike you know, wanting to curl
up in a ball and disappear,because you feel the shame and
(11:24):
the shame is making us feel likewe're not good enough.
So then we're trying to hideaway from people in places, yeah
, and isolation, and then that'sa different kind of spiral.
And then anger, because youfeel the emotional pain, you
become angry to try to aim yourpain away from yourself, so
projecting it away onto anger,and then kind of what I
(11:47):
referenced earlier.
Toxic shame has also reallybeen linked to substance abuse,
eating disorders, self-harm,codependency, depression,
anxiety, oversleeping orinability to sleep, stomach pain
, low self-esteem.
There is a really good book well, I'll get into it, but it's the
newest book that talks about,talks more about trauma and then
(12:13):
the result of these things, andhe has a lot of how your past
trauma.
It's Gabor mate and I juststarted his newest book because
I was listening to his podcastepisode on armchair, as I do and
and as I do, and so I juststarted the newest book.
(12:38):
But the print, but the wholepremise of the book is the idea
that past trauma Impacts yourphysical and mental well-being.
The book is called the myth ofnormal.
Okay, and we'll link that okayand so, yes, those are like
inevitably the result of notprocessing this past toxic shame
and the current toxic shame,often from past trauma, is all
(13:03):
of these things like substanceabuse, eating disorders,
self-harm, depression, anxiety.
It's so linked.
These unhealthy copingmechanisms really try to serve
as an escape for your emotionalpain or your inability to face
yourself.
So you may also become aperfectionist and I I see this a
(13:24):
lot and I in this one it itgets skipped as being a problem.
I think but, it.
Ultimately it's the unrealisticexpectations in your attempt to
avoid being shamed again.
So perfectionism is importantto kind of highlight, because
people being perfectionistic isreally upheld by society as a
(13:47):
positive and as a good thing,and I think it reinforces the
idea that you get a pat on theback and looked up to when
you're, you know, presentingyourself in this overly positive
way.
It reinforces it.
We applaud thosecharacteristics.
And it can make peoplephysically and mentally sick
(14:10):
from the perfectionisticbehaviors, and I see it happen,
I've experienced it myself.
You know, when you're trying toachieve something that is
completely unattainable in orderto cover up for something, you
feel shame around, yeah, it'sgonna make you tired.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
It'll tire you out.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, toxic shame impactshow people think about and treat
themselves, because many withtoxic shame try to avoid that
embarrassment or a shame trigger.
Toxic shame also robs them ofmany life choices and joys in
life too.
Regaining a more positive senseof self, so separate from the
shame caused by poor childhood,treatment is possible.
(14:53):
Self-compassion is key to theprocess and I want to say we say
this almost every episode wewouldn't treat our best friend a
certain way.
Let's start treating ourselveshow we would treat our best
friends and people around us.
You also need thatself-awareness, mindfulness and
patience.
So we have some tips to helpovercome that toxic shame.
(15:17):
The first one is to face theroot of your shame.
It's important to understandand examine your feelings, find
the cause of your shame in orderto move forward.
That's a tough one.
Also, become aware.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, it really is, because you really have to like
look at yourself.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
You're putting yourself under a microscope here
.
Yeah, that's intimidating for alot of people.
Right, become aware of how youtalk to yourself again.
So try to observe your ownthoughts, but not react to them.
Have compassion for yourself.
Everyone has flaws and mistakes.
Even if it seems like yourmistakes were huge, accept that
you're only human.
(15:57):
Learn from the past, but don'tget stuck in the past.
You also mentioned you talkabout practicing mindfulness and
meditation.
They can work wonders as youlearn to observe your thoughts.
Feeling shame forces you toreact, so it can be very
powerful to just notice yourthoughts and question them.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, and we talk about mindfulness a lot and I
know we've mentioned it on otherepisodes, but it's important to
say, like, mindfulness is thisbig word that I think people are
like I don't even know whatthat means.
When you say practicemindfulness, that's all it means
.
What are you thinking?
That's where we break it downinto senses what am I seeing,
(16:39):
what am I hearing, what am Ismelling, if you're tasting
something, etc.
So that is what mindfulness is.
It brings you to the here andnow, because the problem with
unprocessed trauma, whichresults in toxic shame, is that
past experiences are co-optingour current experience.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, absolutely Recognize when you're feeling
shame.
Mindfulness can help alert youwhen you're feeling shame If you
are, mention it to a friend ora partner.
Shame thrives in dark places,so shine a light on it and watch
its power fade away.
And one of our friends, anleyeveryone knows her.
She's been on the show A coupletimes.
(17:24):
She had brought up earliertoday we were talking to her a
quote from Anne Bosskamp andit's shame dies when stories are
told in safe places.
I love that.
I love that too, so I thoughtthat really resonated here.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, and see the support.
Yeah support.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
So a support network can give you an outlet to talk
things out when necessary andboost your sense of belonging.
This can be friends, familyco-workers, therapists, life
coaches, somebody that's in yourcorner.
It's really important, Right.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah.
So, recapping it, toxic shameshould not be underestimated.
It's a really painfulexperiences, but you really can
manage the symptoms andcultivate new thinking habits.
So recognizing shame-basedthoughts and challenging them is
not something that happensovernight.
This really takes practice.
But learning coping techniquesand treating yourself with
(18:20):
compassion can dissolve toxicshame.
I think everybody can relate towhen you finally say that thing
you felt shame about orembarrassment, and you finally
say it out loud and somebodyelse goes all right, like they
hear it, they don't judge you orthey go me too and you're like,
oh my gosh, like the weightlifted off your shoulders.
It's that time so much morewhen you really get to the root
(18:43):
of toxic shame, so you don'thave to go through it alone.
Right, you know you can havethese coping skills and healing
skills, but a mental healthprofessional is a really great
place to go if you're strugglingwith it, because they can help
you take some of the additionalsteps needed to overcome For
sure.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely All right.
Well, we have an answeranswered.
Let's answer From Jackie andSpanish Fork, utah that's kind
of like where I live SpanishFork, the Fork.
Oh there you go.
It's close, it says.
My ex-husband and I have abeautiful seven-year-old
daughter.
We divorced when she was fiveand have both started dating new
(19:23):
people.
I make it a rule that I do nothave my boyfriend spend the
night with my daughters at myhome.
We've been dating for fourmonths and I have just recently
introduced him to my child as afriend.
I want to see how they interactwith each other before making it
known that we're dating asshe's only seven, yeah.
However, my ex-husband'sgirlfriend stated his house with
(19:44):
them all weekend.
They've been dating two months.
This is not something I'mcomfortable with.
Any advice, oh.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Oh yes, so I Operated more like Jackie in my divorce
and I'm applauding her.
I think that's really great,that's putting the kid first and
we've talked about that beforeand and I think that's wonderful
, yeah, and at the same time.
So I'll say a couple things I dobecause I do divorce mediation
(20:15):
I do right in usually a piece inthe parenting plan about the
introduction of new partners andUsually they want something
about the amount of time, orpossibly they want to meet the
other person before the childmeets them, or no living,
whatever.
It is right, becauseeverybody's parenting plan is
their own document, but we dousually put some piece in there,
(20:38):
yeah.
With that said, it is nearimpossible to uphold, yeah.
So I mean, unless you, thisperson who's coming into your
ex's home, you can prove is, youknow, disruptive or Harmful to
(20:58):
your child, it's it's prettyhard to uphold that.
So the the suggestion that Ialways give to people is like
it's okay to have a conversationwith your kiddo about you know,
we don't all make the samedecisions in each home and and
continuing to touch base withyour daughter about her comfort
(21:19):
level at the house withoutfeeding her information.
We're not trying to.
Get her to put her in the middleor whatever, just right or just
Openly asking questions to seehow she's doing.
But at the end of the day youcan't do much outside of trying
to have a conversation with yourex-husband.
You know about protecting yourdaughter and boundaries.
(21:42):
I really don't have a whole lotof say of what's going on right
over there, unless it isNegatively impacting your
children, and then that's awhole different story that I
could also talk a lot about andwe could go into another time.
But that's if that's not thecase.
Yeah, you have to try to do thebest you can while parenting
(22:04):
your daughter at your house.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, I'll let her know that she does have that
safe space in line ofcommunication with you.
And then you know you can't makethe rules at your ex's house.
That's his, his home.
He's gonna do it.
He wants you know.
Yeah, I mean maybe like reachout to your ex-husband and and
Ask to say, hey, can we have ameetup?
I'd love to meet.
So-and-so Right, she isspending time with our, you know
(22:30):
, with our daughter, and thenalso when and when it's time for
you know, if you haven'tintroduced the boyfriend, and it
goes both ways.
So right sure that you'reoffering the same thing that
you're asking for in return.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a tough situation.
A lot of people struggle withthis one.
Yeah, good luck, jackie.
Good luck.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, it is All right , guys.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
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(23:14):
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We'll continue to add resourcesand information.
I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
We're your host, kathy DanMoore and Jess Lyp.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And join us next time where we will be Discussing
suicide.
We'll be breaking it down onesip at a time.
Welcome back to Spilling the Fairty with
Therapist Kathy Dan Moore andGreek Coach Jess hey.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Kathy Dan- hey, jess, I thought you said Greek at
first.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I'm not Greek.
Well, I was in sorority.
That's as great as I was.
That's as great as you get.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
That's so funny.
I'm actually going tomorrow.
I'm leaving to go see Lily forparents weekend at.
Fsu and she is having.
She's loving her sorority,she's an 80-pie and loves it,
and they're having an eventtomorrow night and then on
Saturday they're having a brunchbefore the game.
(00:37):
So I'm going to be going takinghaving a little bit of a window
into her Greek life.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's so cool.
I'm so glad that she's foundher little community there.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I know it makes me so happy and they they already had
to get apartments.
That was the saga of this week,right?
Was the leases for the fall of2024 come out now?
They came out this week andopened up, and she and her
little girlfriends were in lineat like 4.30 in the morning or
(01:07):
something in order to get a QRcode, to get a number, so that
then you can get I don't evenknow.
So she did get an apartment,but I just think that's kind of
crazy that.
So this is like off campushousing yes.
Yes.
So, her sorority, you can'tlive in the house, I think.
I know you can't as a sophomore, I don't know if you can as a
(01:29):
junior, but I think her plan isto try to live in the house her
senior year.
So she needs, but it just seemsearly you know to be getting a
bunch of girls to agree who theywant to live with after they've
only been at school for six orseven weeks, and expecting them
all to be getting along in.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I was like optimistic .
That really is.
That really is.
Well, when I was in my sorority, we didn't have a house, we had
an apartment thing for like wemeet for chapter, because in the
city of Birmingham if more thanfour girls live together, it's
considered a brothel.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So I and since I was in New Orleans, it was the same,
I don't think it was four, butwe had houses.
It was.
Our house was beautiful, Iloved it, but I think just five
or six girls could live in thereand so.
I lived off campus after afreshman year but yes, they had
that same.
I don't know if it's still.
(02:29):
It's a thing.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
It's so insane because all the guys had well,
they didn't have houses.
They would rent a house like anold historical home in
Birmingham.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
But there was like 90 boys.
I mean whoever.
Whoever could fit, they fit.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You know, and I'm sure it was disgusting.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Oh yeah, I could still smell it.
Yeah, it's just, you know that.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I don't know Spale beer smell and like, yeah, I
know I remember.
Although I will say, justlistening to everything she's
doing and just watching herenjoy the process, it has made
me incredibly nostalgic for myexperience at today, yeah.
(03:15):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I'm so happy for her.
I know me too.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Well, all right.
So today we're going to talkabout the difference between
shame and guilt.
Yes, it gets brought up a lotin my sessions by me because I'm
usually trying to help peoplebetter understand their shame
and their toxic shame anddifferentiating that from guilt.
(03:41):
But the two emotions they'reoften confused with one another.
So guilt sounds like that thingyou did was wrong, whereas
shame sounds like, because youdid that thing, you're a bad
person.
Yeah, so guilt can be a reallyhelpful emotion, you know, when
we're maintaining relationshipsit keeps us on track if we've
(04:03):
drifted, you know, from ourmoral standards.
So guilt can be utilized in aproductive way.
But shame can be toxic, mainlyfrom constantly being told that
you're not enough.
So this can be because parentsor peers keep telling you that
and your confidence suffers fromthis sort of deep seated
(04:24):
emotion and it affects the waythat you see yourself.
So a lot of EMDR that I do isaround, you know, residual shame
of things that have happened inpeople's childhood.
So we're going to talk abouthow you conquer that and discuss
a little bit about the.
You know, the main core ofconquering shame starts with
(04:46):
self-compassion.
So Brene Brown, who most peopleknow and we've referenced
probably a couple of times is ashame researcher, and so I'm
going to read this quote by her,because she puts it this way If
you put shame in a Petri dish,it needs three things to grow
exponentially Secrecy, silenceand judgment.
(05:07):
If you put the same amount ofshame in a Petri dish and douse
it with empathy, it can'tsurvive.
And I think that's so powerful.
And she I would encourageanybody to read.
If you're interested in thisparticular topic, read things by
Brene Brown.
She has an amazing TED talk.
I think she has a podcast aswell that I don't have it really
(05:30):
listened to, but she's reallygreat.
She talks about vulnerability.
That's her other big piece,that she's researched a lot.
But you know, toxic shame isdebilitating feeling and it's
this debilitating feeling ofworthlessness and self-loathing.
It can be pretty hard tooperate productively, happily,
joyfully in life if you'reexperiencing toxic shame.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I think yeah, and I think people wonder too, like
how shame becomes toxic, rightyeah?
So the reality is you'veprobably felt and will continue
to feel shame at various timesin your life.
Shame can last a few hours oreven a few days.
Ordinary shame is a feeling inresponse to wrongdoing or
thinking something you believeis immoral.
(06:13):
Usually, ordinary shamedissipates in those few days and
is tied to only one specificevent.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I think about like that feeling.
You get that hotness, you getMm-hmm.
I mean, you get that withembarrassment too.
But like that shame is likethat kind of it almost like
feels like a hot vibration in myhead Just thinking of this.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I remember, okay, I'm y'all, I'm not a
cheater-cheater-punkin'-eater,but like I'm not a
cheater-punkin', applicationtables.
Okay, so this is my table and Iremember, like it was timed
multiplication right, and I wasnot given like my eights, my
sixes, you know, and I remembera wondering I, you know you're
(06:55):
eight years old, You're like.
Oh, they're getting answers.
Couldn't ever see what anyoneelse was had, obviously, but I
always would get that hot feellike like I knew that I
shouldn't have been looking.
Yes, the kind of like ordinaryshame we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
That's a really good example.
I could say that was the extentof the cheating that I've ever
done.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
But you know, you get that hot feeling like oh man,
and then you feel bad and you'relike shut nothing looking.
You've got to say anything andit didn't help me any but still
like oh see my more.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Look like the Spanish teacher freshman year at Tulane
going.
I'm moving you to the otherside of the classroom because I
can see that you're cheating offyour friend Mari.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
That's mine Like guys .
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Spanish wasn't my thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So that's kind of how ordinary shame goes.
That's a little example thatcomes from constantly being told
you're not enough.
It results in negative selftalk that stays with you.
Childhood abuse, neglect, othertraumatic experiences can cause
toxic shame and make us believethat we're not good enough.
(08:08):
Toxic shame can start in theway you were given feedback for
certain incidences as a child,usually by your parent.
For example, if you wet the bed, your parent may have reacted
in one of these two ways.
One, they could have reassuredyou that it was all right and
cleaned it up without making afuss.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Clearly we're stressing that that's the nice
way.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yes, or they lashed out at you and said things like
why do you always do this?
What's wrong with you?
That second reaction wouldprobably have led you to believe
that there was something wrongwith you.
Especially the parent thatyou're supposed to trust and
guide you is telling you there'ssomething wrong with you.
You know, your feeling of shamecan turn into toxic shame when
(08:55):
the second scene keeps repeating.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I don't want parents out there to feel like when we
say this, if you've said that toyour kid at some point, you've
now instilled toxic shame inthem Because we're not talking
about when we've said something.
I don't know if this is forjust my own guilt that I have
for things that I wish I'd saidnicer or more constructive or
more encouraging, or foreverybody else, but I do think
(09:22):
overall, as parents, we havemoments where we say things like
oh my God, what is wrong withyou?
Or something like that.
That is different when it is anisolated incident and when, as
parents, we circle back aroundand say I'm sorry, mommy was
really tired, it's all right,we're cleaning it up.
So there is space in that.
I don't want people to becleaning themselves as parents
(09:44):
now.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah.
So other repeated phrases thatcause toxic shame, depending on
the incident, are why are youdoing it like that?
You're wrong, what were youthinking?
Or you'll never be as good asthem.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
That just breaks my heart.
To you that does yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
If you're told these things often enough, you might
start telling yourself, forexample, I'm not worthy of love.
Yeah, and holding on tofeelings of unworthiness can be
very damaging to your mental andphysical health.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, in chain-based behavior it's been
described I like this one as asburying.
I never know if I it's buryingor burying burying, burying the
bones in the backyard.
So, in other words, when wefeel our behavior is shameful,
(10:37):
we're gonna hide the evidence ofthe crime.
I see that a lot with peoplewho are working on different
addictions.
Right and the shame they havearound it, which then starts the
secrecy, which then starts thatspiral.
So Some of the things arefeeling worthless, worrying what
others might think about you,being afraid that you look
stupid, perfectionism inresponse to fearing failure,
(11:02):
constant negative self-talk andanger in response to shame
triggers.
So toxic shame can be dangerousbecause shame is behind the
symptoms, because that is behindthe symptoms of withdrawal and,
and so the withdrawal lookslike you know, wanting to curl
up in a ball and disappear,because you feel the shame and
(11:24):
the shame is making us feel likewe're not good enough.
So then we're trying to hideaway from people in places, yeah
, and isolation, and then that'sa different kind of spiral.
And then anger, because youfeel the emotional pain, you
become angry to try to aim yourpain away from yourself, so
projecting it away onto anger,and then kind of what I
(11:47):
referenced earlier.
Toxic shame has also reallybeen linked to substance abuse,
eating disorders, self-harm,codependency, depression,
anxiety, oversleeping orinability to sleep, stomach pain
, low self-esteem.
There is a really good book well, I'll get into it, but it's the
newest book that talks about,talks more about trauma and then
(12:13):
the result of these things, andhe has a lot of how your past
trauma.
It's Gabor mate and I juststarted his newest book because
I was listening to his podcastepisode on armchair, as I do and
and as I do, and so I juststarted the newest book.
(12:38):
But the print, but the wholepremise of the book is the idea
that past trauma Impacts yourphysical and mental well-being.
The book is called the myth ofnormal.
Okay, and we'll link that okayand so, yes, those are like
inevitably the result of notprocessing this past toxic shame
and the current toxic shame,often from past trauma, is all
(13:03):
of these things like substanceabuse, eating disorders,
self-harm, depression, anxiety.
It's so linked.
These unhealthy copingmechanisms really try to serve
as an escape for your emotionalpain or your inability to face
yourself.
So you may also become aperfectionist and I I see this a
(13:24):
lot and I in this one it itgets skipped as being a problem.
I think but, it.
Ultimately it's the unrealisticexpectations in your attempt to
avoid being shamed again.
So perfectionism is importantto kind of highlight, because
people being perfectionistic isreally upheld by society as a
(13:47):
positive and as a good thing,and I think it reinforces the
idea that you get a pat on theback and looked up to when
you're, you know, presentingyourself in this overly positive
way.
It reinforces it.
We applaud thosecharacteristics.
And it can make peoplephysically and mentally sick
(14:10):
from the perfectionisticbehaviors, and I see it happen,
I've experienced it myself.
You know, when you're trying toachieve something that is
completely unattainable in orderto cover up for something, you
feel shame around, yeah, it'sgonna make you tired.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
It'll tire you out.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, toxic shame impactshow people think about and treat
themselves, because many withtoxic shame try to avoid that
embarrassment or a shame trigger.
Toxic shame also robs them ofmany life choices and joys in
life too.
Regaining a more positive senseof self, so separate from the
shame caused by poor childhood,treatment is possible.
(14:53):
Self-compassion is key to theprocess and I want to say we say
this almost every episode wewouldn't treat our best friend a
certain way.
Let's start treating ourselveshow we would treat our best
friends and people around us.
You also need thatself-awareness, mindfulness and
patience.
So we have some tips to helpovercome that toxic shame.
(15:17):
The first one is to face theroot of your shame.
It's important to understandand examine your feelings, find
the cause of your shame in orderto move forward.
That's a tough one.
Also, become aware.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, it really is, because you really have to like
look at yourself.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
You're putting yourself under a microscope here
.
Yeah, that's intimidating for alot of people.
Right, become aware of how youtalk to yourself again.
So try to observe your ownthoughts, but not react to them.
Have compassion for yourself.
Everyone has flaws and mistakes.
Even if it seems like yourmistakes were huge, accept that
you're only human.
(15:57):
Learn from the past, but don'tget stuck in the past.
You also mentioned you talkabout practicing mindfulness and
meditation.
They can work wonders as youlearn to observe your thoughts.
Feeling shame forces you toreact, so it can be very
powerful to just notice yourthoughts and question them.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, and we talk about mindfulness a lot and I
know we've mentioned it on otherepisodes, but it's important to
say, like, mindfulness is thisbig word that I think people are
like I don't even know whatthat means.
When you say practicemindfulness, that's all it means
.
What are you thinking?
That's where we break it downinto senses what am I seeing,
(16:39):
what am I hearing, what am Ismelling, if you're tasting
something, etc.
So that is what mindfulness is.
It brings you to the here andnow, because the problem with
unprocessed trauma, whichresults in toxic shame, is that
past experiences are co-optingour current experience.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, absolutely Recognize when you're feeling
shame.
Mindfulness can help alert youwhen you're feeling shame If you
are, mention it to a friend ora partner.
Shame thrives in dark places,so shine a light on it and watch
its power fade away.
And one of our friends, anleyeveryone knows her.
She's been on the show A coupletimes.
(17:24):
She had brought up earliertoday we were talking to her a
quote from Anne Bosskamp andit's shame dies when stories are
told in safe places.
I love that.
I love that too, so I thoughtthat really resonated here.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, and see the support.
Yeah support.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
So a support network can give you an outlet to talk
things out when necessary andboost your sense of belonging.
This can be friends, familyco-workers, therapists, life
coaches, somebody that's in yourcorner.
It's really important, Right.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah.
So, recapping it, toxic shameshould not be underestimated.
It's a really painfulexperiences, but you really can
manage the symptoms andcultivate new thinking habits.
So recognizing shame-basedthoughts and challenging them is
not something that happensovernight.
This really takes practice.
But learning coping techniquesand treating yourself with
(18:20):
compassion can dissolve toxicshame.
I think everybody can relate towhen you finally say that thing
you felt shame about orembarrassment, and you finally
say it out loud and somebodyelse goes all right, like they
hear it, they don't judge you orthey go me too and you're like,
oh my gosh, like the weightlifted off your shoulders.
It's that time so much morewhen you really get to the root
(18:43):
of toxic shame, so you don'thave to go through it alone.
Right, you know you can havethese coping skills and healing
skills, but a mental healthprofessional is a really great
place to go if you're strugglingwith it, because they can help
you take some of the additionalsteps needed to overcome For
sure.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely All right.
Well, we have an answeranswered.
Let's answer From Jackie andSpanish Fork, utah that's kind
of like where I live SpanishFork, the Fork.
Oh there you go.
It's close, it says.
My ex-husband and I have abeautiful seven-year-old
daughter.
We divorced when she was fiveand have both started dating new
(19:23):
people.
I make it a rule that I do nothave my boyfriend spend the
night with my daughters at myhome.
We've been dating for fourmonths and I have just recently
introduced him to my child as afriend.
I want to see how they interactwith each other before making it
known that we're dating asshe's only seven, yeah.
However, my ex-husband'sgirlfriend stated his house with
(19:44):
them all weekend.
They've been dating two months.
This is not something I'mcomfortable with.
Any advice, oh.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Oh yes, so I Operated more like Jackie in my divorce
and I'm applauding her.
I think that's really great,that's putting the kid first and
we've talked about that beforeand and I think that's wonderful
, yeah, and at the same time.
So I'll say a couple things I dobecause I do divorce mediation
(20:15):
I do right in usually a piece inthe parenting plan about the
introduction of new partners andUsually they want something
about the amount of time, orpossibly they want to meet the
other person before the childmeets them, or no living,
whatever.
It is right, becauseeverybody's parenting plan is
their own document, but we dousually put some piece in there,
(20:38):
yeah.
With that said, it is nearimpossible to uphold, yeah.
So I mean, unless you, thisperson who's coming into your
ex's home, you can prove is, youknow, disruptive or Harmful to
(20:58):
your child, it's it's prettyhard to uphold that.
So the the suggestion that Ialways give to people is like
it's okay to have a conversationwith your kiddo about you know,
we don't all make the samedecisions in each home and and
continuing to touch base withyour daughter about her comfort
(21:19):
level at the house withoutfeeding her information.
We're not trying to.
Get her to put her in the middleor whatever, just right or just
Openly asking questions to seehow she's doing.
But at the end of the day youcan't do much outside of trying
to have a conversation with yourex-husband.
You know about protecting yourdaughter and boundaries.
(21:42):
I really don't have a whole lotof say of what's going on right
over there, unless it isNegatively impacting your
children, and then that's awhole different story that I
could also talk a lot about andwe could go into another time.
But that's if that's not thecase.
Yeah, you have to try to do thebest you can while parenting
(22:04):
your daughter at your house.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, I'll let her know that she does have that
safe space in line ofcommunication with you.
And then you know you can't makethe rules at your ex's house.
That's his, his home.
He's gonna do it.
He wants you know.
Yeah, I mean maybe like reachout to your ex-husband and and
Ask to say, hey, can we have ameetup?
I'd love to meet.
So-and-so Right, she isspending time with our, you know
(22:30):
, with our daughter, and thenalso when and when it's time for
you know, if you haven'tintroduced the boyfriend, and it
goes both ways.
So right sure that you'reoffering the same thing that
you're asking for in return.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a tough situation.
A lot of people struggle withthis one.
Yeah, good luck, jackie.
Good luck.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, it is All right , guys.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please leave us a
review on Apple podcasts.
This will help us move up thechart and be more accessible to
new listeners.
You can also follow us onInstagram and Facebook.
We will drop tips andinformation about upcoming
episodes.
If you have a question for ourask and answer segment, you'll
(23:14):
email us at ask us atspellingthetheritycom.
Don't forget to check out ournew website,
spellingthetheritycom.
We'll continue to add resourcesand information.
I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
We're your host, kathy DanMoore and Jess Lyp.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And join us next time where we will be Discussing
suicide.
We'll be breaking it down onesip at a time.
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