November 17, 2023 • 37 mins
What if you found yourself entangled in the web of a sociopath or a psychopath? Would you be able to identify the warning signs and navigate your way out? We promise to equip you with the necessary tools to understand and recognize the traits of these complex personalities. We kick things off by defining sociopaths and psychopaths and exploring their distinguishing symptoms. Our discussion also covers the potential dangers of a relationship with these individuals and offers advice on setting healthy boundaries.
We then get under the skin of these disorders, uncovering the differences between sociopathy and psychopathy. Looking at research on brain abnormalities in psychopaths, we contemplate how this could affect treatment options. Adding a grim yet intriguing twist to our conversation, we delve into the chilling tales of notorious figures like Ted Bundy, Elizabeth Holmes, John Wayne Gacy, and Billy McFarland. These stories serve as stark reminders of the potential damage these disorders can wreak.
As we wrap up, we put Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD) under the microscope. We examine how ASPD impacts those around the individual and the process of diagnosing this disorder. Additionally, we provide a comprehensive overview of the available treatment options. Our deep-dive explores the role of medication, cognitive behavioral therapy, and family therapy in managing ASPD. Join us for this captivating exploration as we demystify the enigmatic world of sociopaths, psychopaths, and antisocial personality disorder.
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DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not replace the advice you may be receiving from a licensed therapist.This podcast and website represents the opinions of KathyDan Moore, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Grief Coach Jess Lowe, and their guests to the show and website. The content here should not be taken as medical advice.
The content here is for informational purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions.Views and opinions expressed in the podcast and website are our own. While we make every effort to ensure that the information we are sharing is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
Privacy is of utmost importance to us. All people, places, and scenarios mentioned in the podcast have been changed to protect patient confidentiality.This website or podcast should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever, including but not limited to establishing “standard of care” in a legal sense or as a basis for expert witness testimony.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Stoing the Fairytee with
therapist Kathy Daymore andgrief coach Jess Lowe.
Hey, kathy, dan, hello, hello.
How's it going?
It's going well, I'm glad.
Today's Thursday yes.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm here for the weekend.
Do you have anything funplanned?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Nope, I am going to do all of my Thanksgiving food
shopping, like all the staplestuff that I need this weekend.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's impressive.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
You know, because, well, next week I'm going up to
Birmingham to see my sisterbecause we're going to a need to
breathe concert.
So, yeah, I don't even know whothat is.
I'll have to send you some oftheir jams, but we're going to
buy the tickets for my birthdayback in June, and so that's what
we're doing, and we're having areally fancy dinner which is my
(00:53):
gift to her for her birthday,which is an August.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So I'm taking her to a nice dry shot.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
She's taking me to an awesome concert and so that
weekend I don't want to have tolike deal with get all my stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
That's about it, and then for our listeners, I will
be seeing you soon.
I know I'm so excited, I am too, so that's exciting.
But yeah, what about you?
You went on your trip.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I went on my trip.
I went to LA.
I got to spend time with mybestie from college and her
three kids, who are adorable andI love them, so it was nice.
We just did a lot of like kidsstuff, you know, soccer and all
that kind of jazz, so and thefood there is really really good
(01:41):
.
So I enjoyed eating a lot offood and now I'm still a little
bit sick.
I don't know what is going onwith my like immune system.
Yeah, doug is really sick thisweek, so I know.
So this weekend I think he'llbe better, just in time for his
fishing tournament on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Of course he will be.
Of course he will be.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yes.
So I'm just going to kind oflay low this weekend and my
oldest is going to come andfinish the double doors.
Did I tell you I'm making thatroom into a library?
No, yeah, the front room in myhouse I'm converting it to a
library, cool.
So I've had him put Frenchdoors on, he and his buddy
Brandon, so they're going tocome finish it.
(02:23):
I ordered a rug, so I'm justgoing to do a little, like you
know I might paint this weekend.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, kind of regroup .
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, I need to regroup, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I feel you, I feel you, okay Well today's is
interesting.
Today's is interesting.
I feel like this word has beensomething we've discussed
privately and probably in yoursessions, quite often we have
really touched on it, but todaywe're going to talk about
sociopaths and psychopaths.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, and people use it loosely right.
I have plenty of clients thatare like I don't know, they're a
total sociopath.
I'm like there's an actualdefinition to what that is there
is.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So we're going to get into that, give some symptoms,
give some things to look out for.
But we're also going to touchon, like, relationships with
people that you know are asociopath or you know even you
know psycho, have psychopathictendencies and how, like you
relate to, you know relate tothat relationship, whether it's
(03:28):
platonic relationship, you knowromantic relationship and like,
is it something that's good foryou?
You know as well, being in arelationship with somebody that
you know has those traits.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Usually that's a no Right, but we're going to tell
you why, though?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
We're going to tell you why.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
If you, if the listener is thinking is it good
to be in a relationship?
The answer is no, we're justgoing to break down how to do
things.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And how to exit that relationship?
Yes, and if you can't what?
Boundaries look like Right, forsure, the definition of a
sociopath is a person with apersonality disorder manifesting
itself in extreme anti-socialattitudes and behaviors and a
lack of conscience.
And we're going to break thatdown, what anti-social attitudes
(04:13):
and behaviors really look like.
So some of the symptoms of asociopath.
They ignore right and wrong.
They might know what's rightand wrong, but they're they're
ignoring the key word beingignoring.
Right and then they're tellinglies to take advantage of others
.
Not being sensitive to orrespectful of others, they use
(04:34):
their charm or wit to manipulateothers for personal gain or
pleasure and they may have asense of superiority and become
extremely opinionated and theycan have problems with the law,
including criminal behavior.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I wonder people right now are like Some, but maybe
not all of that feels very muchlike narcissism.
Yeah Well, yeah, but you get tothe like problems with the law
and the criminal behavior.
That doesn't jive as much withnecessarily with narcissism that
it can't.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
A lot of things are like you know, that whole
comorbidity thing, like thingscan have similar symptoms and
things like that.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So you really got to dive deep and you know, learn
these differences the way I liketo say they like to play in the
sandbox together.
Yeah, there you go, I'll livein the pocket together.
Yes, so, and I do want to talka little bit about the
difference between A sociopathand a psychopath.
I think people use thoseinterchangeably and it's not the
same thing.
Yeah, so they they're used,often very casually, I think, to
(05:38):
describe people who generallylack empathy, they disregard,
like laws and rules.
They don't really care aboutother people's rights.
They can have violenttendencies Without a level of
guilt.
Yeah, so, while Sociopathy andpsychopathy are not formally
recognized as mental healthconditions, there are certain
(06:00):
mental health disorders thatinvolve features that are
considered Sociopathic orpsychopathic.
So we really want to be able tokind of find out the difference
.
So, in a nutshell, theSociopathy, the key feature to
sociopathic behavior.
It really includes that lack ofempathy, the lack of inhibition
, altered social andinterpersonal behaviors and
(06:23):
Impaired social and moraljudgments.
So this stuff that we'retalking about Today in general,
right if we're gonna go to thediagnosis piece of it.
Yes, all kind of falls under themental health diagnosis of
antisocial personality disorderor ASPD.
So when I say antisocialpersonality disorder, we are not
(06:45):
saying what people might thinkof when they think of the word
Antisocial like a recluse, butthat's not that, that's not it.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
So I know that that's what thatsounds like, but that's not
what this is.
So the common behaviors forpeople with ASPD really include
things like setting fires.
Okay so that's not just a one togo to a party right and Cruelty
(07:08):
to animals.
Those are babies, though.
They begin to show Oftensymptoms and childhood and we'll
talk about this more but thecondition really can't be
diagnosed Until kind of lateadolescence or adulthood.
So, and the behaviors includelying, breaking laws, acting
impulsively, lacking regard fortheir own safety or safety of
(07:30):
others.
So for the clinicians out therethat have done this again, this
is what you've probablydiagnosed when you're working
with younger kids asoppositional, defiant disorder
Is like kind of the firstlead-in diagnosis, because you
don't want to go heavy right outof the gate, or at least I
don't.
But then conduct order, conductis, I'm sorry, conduct disorder.
So, but a summary of that wouldbe someone a summary of
(07:54):
psychopathy, right?
Or, I'm sorry, sociopathy.
A summary of that would besomeone who has a long-term
pattern of Manipulating orexploiting and violating the
rights of others.
So, and the behavior iscriminal, criminal, okay.
So then let's talk about thedefining Psychopathy a little
(08:18):
bit, because there are someoverlaps.
Boldness and fearlessness arereally prominent features of
psychopathy.
And Then obviously ASPD.
So this one is reallycharacterized by shallow
emotional responses, lack ofempathy, impulsivity and an
(08:40):
increased likelihood ofantisocial behavior.
So individuals with psychopathyare responsible for an
inordinate proportion of crimesthat are committed.
So right, these are the onesthat we hear about on the news.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, so you want to talk a little bit about which
one those are.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
On true crime.
Exactly so.
The condition is a strongpredictor of how likely
someone's going to reoffendafter the release from prison.
So, within a year of releasefrom prison, people who have
what are considered psychopathictraits are about three times
more likely to commit anothercrime and four times more likely
(09:20):
to commit a violent crime.
So, yes, psychopathy typicallyhas an all-encompassing,
destructive impact on anindividual's life, work and
relationships.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So you would say that , like psychopathy, has more of
the violent tendencies?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yes, if we're just going to break it down to a
simple Is more like theemotional and mental abuse
patterns.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Correct, If you're?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
like yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
It's easier differential to differentiate
those.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That's a yes, like a more basic, easy way.
And what's interesting is thatthere's abnormalities in the
brain that may be responsiblefor certain symptoms of
psychopathy.
So some studies have found thatthe amygdala we talk about the
amygdala right a lot because itis our alert system in our brain
(10:14):
, the emotion processingstructure of the brain it's
actually this is like sointeresting to me it's actually
smaller in people withpsychopathy than it's then in
like typically developedindividuals.
It shows that the research hasfound that the amygdala also can
have deformities in people withpsychopathy.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Wow, that makes me like want to just take people
right in to get scanned.
Like let's just scan your head.
I'm not the kind of peoplewe're working with.
I'm for real Like that's reallyinteresting.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
No, I know, I feel like that's where brain science
is going to go, where we'regoing to be able to do a lot
more diagnostic work out of thegate to go okay, now what are we
going to do?
And we'll talk about this alittle bit like how are we going
to treat this?
In a way, because it doesprovide some empathy around
people who do really horriblethings.
Their brain structure looksdifferent, and so studies have
(11:10):
found that moderate to highlyinheritable genetic components
are there for psychopathy.
So one I think it's 2016 studyin the American Journal of
Psychiatry.
It tracked 561 kids that wereadopted during early infancy, so
not after they've had a lot ofexperience.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Like a year, year earlier.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, like with it I would say.
I mean, they didn't specify,but that's what I would say
within like the first year oflife.
So a children whose biologicalmoms reported a greater history
of severe antisocial behaviorand again we're not talking
about not wanting to go to aparty we're much more likely
those kids were much more likelyto exhibit psychopathy
(11:56):
behaviors than those whobiological, who had biological
mothers, who did not report ASPDbehaviors.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I know it's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I know.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Maybe not everybody, but we're nerdy, we're verbal.
We love that.
So the key differences, thoughthere are overlaps, like we've
discussed, but it's not alwayspossible or necessary to
determine whether someone hasone versus the other, but there
are differences.
For starters, someone withsociopathy is likely easier to
(12:28):
spot, so when a psychopathinteracts with you, if they get
upset, they can keep their cool.
The sociopath will lose it.
Yeah yeah, because they are moreemotional.
They, you know, even thoughthey like the empathy they don't
they don't like them forthemselves, like so with a
sociopath that things don't gothe way they want them to.
(12:49):
They'll get angry and could beaggressive.
This could be physicalaggression or even just with
their words, right, mm-hmm.
If there's someone withsociopathy in your life, you may
also notice other things thatare off and they might not fit
right in social settings andwe're not saying like they're in
the corner hiding.
They don't fit in socialsettings with the things they
(13:09):
speak about, the way they treatother people, that sort of thing
, and they have difficultyholding a job.
People with psychopathy, though, are the opposite.
They tend to be very successfuland well-liked, right.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yes and we're gonna give some examples.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, people that are pretty famous, that yes, so
people with psychopathy aresmooth operators.
This person will compliment you, make you feel good and just
say all of the right things.
They're also manipulative andare pros at gaining others trust
(13:47):
.
Someone who has traits ofpsychopathy might be more likely
to boldly defy socialexpectations, even to the point
of causing harm to others.
Someone who has traits ofsociopathy might be more
impulsive.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I don't feel like thereis cunning and planned right.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
So a sociopath usually doesn't cause harm or
distress, whereas a psychopathis usually more physically
violent and more prone to putothers in danger.
However, this isn't to say thatpsychopaths can't do harm or
engage in aggressive behavior.
You mean?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
sociopaths.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yes, sociopaths.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Sorry, yeah, they can't do harm or engage right
here and which makes me thinkabout, like people who come into
Session for me, like that I'm.
We are talking more aboutpeople who have sociopathic
tendencies.
Yes, psychopathic tendencies,yes.
But I will tell you side note Ihave had some kids, when I
(14:47):
still did community mentalhealth and I was going to the
homes when I was working innonprofit, that I thought, oh
boy, we should try this kiddo.
Right, you know there was a lotof early warning signs of
conduct disorder, right?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And you know you think people say, over that
person's psychopath, thatperson's sociocath, we're not
educated, okay, kathy.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
I'm not so like us in the general population we might
think people have have thesetraits and they very well could
be one of the two.
But leave that to theprofessionals, you know.
But in saying that I Know quitea few people.
I'm like, honestly, all of thethings we spoke about, I'm like
(15:32):
they could have they could be asociopath.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
One of the things that shows up a lot of times
with kids is when they hurtanimals, because that's what
they have access to.
So that's why we kind of, whenwe mentioned the animals and the
fire, those are two things thatkids have the access to do.
I've had a client once where ohthese there was a family.
He was a Younger brother, hehad an older sister and there
(16:00):
was the parents and I wasworking with the family and I
was working with a little boy.
He'd previously beenhospitalized for about a month
for safety concerns and At thispoint they had had to get rid of
the dog because he had brokenthe dog's legs.
They had then put a padlock onthe door because he would get up
(16:21):
in the middle of the night.
I mean it's a real, like a realsafety concern and these
parents don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I mean it's just, it's incredibly difficult, right
, and I say leave the diagnosislike diagnosing to the
professionals.
But still, if you're Seeingthese traits in somebody and
you're thinking, are they asociopath, set those boundaries
for yourself, which we'lldiscuss in a little bit, because
that's what you can do whenyou're encountering somebody
(16:51):
that you might think really hasthese, these characteristics,
right, that's what we can do thegeneral public, not the
educated, licensed professionals.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
You can still take care of yourself, even though I
know, oh sure, yes, it doesn'tmean you should just lay down
and take it now, right?
Okay, so I wanted to mention afew people that we all know
about, right.
So, ted Bundy he would be areally classic and famous
(17:24):
psychopath, very charming, right.
Women were supposedly quiteenchanted by him.
There's been, I think, at leasttwo recent Netflix things.
People love learning aboutsociopaths and psychopaths,
right, like we're all veryfascinated.
Yeah, you're fascinated Me too.
Yeah, so he killed at least 30people in the United States, and
(17:45):
so they found out that he hadantisocial personality disorder,
psychopathy, psychopathy Ialways butcher that word
psychopathy narcissisticpersonality disorder, borderline
bipolar, schizoid personalitydisorder and an addictive
disorder.
He had all the things.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
He had all the things you know, and he was so shi and
he was so shi and he was so shiand if you look at him, he I
mean so he both thought he waslike hot to trot.
Some people are like I don'treally see it.
But I mean back then heprobably was like more
attractive.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I mean he didn't float my boat, but like for sure
, like I didn't think he waslike murdering people all over
the place.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
You know, he was picked up right here in
Pensacola, like that's wherethey got him, like right down
the street.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
That's what I thought .
Yeah, did that look like Efronplay him?
He did yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Oh, is that upsetting to you.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I I like Zac Efron as an adult.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I'm sensing something .
I can't read it.
What's happening?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
As an adult.
Zac Efron yes, he glowed up forreal and I think that he over
because he played him.
I think people really looked atthe whole like over sexualizing
of Ted Bundy more than like seewhat happened, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And so I kind of have mixed feelings on that.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Casting, okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
He did a great job he did a great job.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
He looked so like he has a huge jaw.
I guess he like broke his jawand he had to have
reconstruction surgery andeveryone's like oh, he had he
had plastic surgery.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
He's like no, I broke my jaw, like yeah, he's a good
looking gentleman if we do sayso he did, yeah, yeah, okay, so
we're in agreement on that one.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
To snap something back in front.
That's for you, Zac Efron.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Okay.
So this one's very different,like moving out of the whole
mass murdering kind of situation.
Yeah, elizabeth Holmes, okay.
So, on the surface, right, thischicky is the pioneer in her
industry.
She's changing the world.
She's, you know, she's the onewho started Serenos, and so that
(19:49):
was at one point, a $10 billioncompany, so on the verge of
revolutionizing healthcare,right.
So the technology was aroundlike finding a drop of using a
drop of blood that would, thenthat would help diagnose this
long list of diseases.
So, and at its peak, she evenhas former secretary of state
(20:10):
sitting at the board ofdirectors for her company.
And then she and her partnerwere charged with, charged and
found guilty, with multiplecounts of wire fraud and even
being after she was indicted bya federal jury.
She continued to talk toinvestors about starting a new
business and denied anyallegations against her.
Like that bitch is not right.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Like mind blown, like what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
It's interesting how you can go from like the
murderous aspect to that, andthat's just as scary though.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yes, yeah, I mean not quite as scary because she
wasn't actually murdering people, but but I mean she was ruining
lives, just as devious, and shewas ruining lives for sure, you
know.
So, crazy, crazy.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Another one, John Wayne Gacy, which he is the
scariest one to me.
He freaks me out?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, I don't like clowns.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I don't like clowns at all, at all, at all Like they
make I'm sweating, I'm sweating.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I forgot about your thing with clowns.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I don't like them.
Yeah, I forgot about that.
And when I went to LA with mysister a couple of years ago, we
went to this place called Houseof Death oh, why would you do
that to yourself, I don't knowand it had all kinds of stuff
Like it had like taxidermin,like it had a taxidermin like
giraffe.
It was like that's some prettycool stuff like that.
(21:37):
You know, which was likeinteresting.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
They also had like serial killer stuff and they had
a lot of his like drawings fromgel, but anyways, his stuff
just screaming out just beingnear it, yeah, near it.
Yeah, it's paper, but on thesurface nothing about him made
him appear like a sociopath.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, okay, he had a business.
He received a man of the yearaward.
Wow, you know, like he hadphotos of himself with the first
man, first lady at the time,rosalind Carter.
Like you met first lady, mrsCarter, like you know he was
charming, he was an outstandingfigure to many who knew him.
(22:13):
He even entertained kids, likeI said, as a clown, at first
parties.
Right, yeah, years later,investigations led to the
discovery that he was also aserial killer, who later became
known as the clown killer, andhe never would have known.
You know, everyone that knewhim was like I never would have
guessed, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So imagine being killed by a clown.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, yes, you can, I've had them dream, those
aren't.
And then another one is BillyMcFarland, and I don't know if a
lot of people know who BillyMcFarland is if you're a certain
age, maybe but he's the guythat did like the fire festival.
You know he was trying to getthese all these singers and
everybody out for this firefestival.
(22:56):
So if you're not a music bestkind of person, then yeah, but
it's important that not allsociopaths are killers, right?
One of the, you know, mostdistinctive traits of a
sociopath is that they feel noremorse for their actions, even
after harming others.
That's where Billy McFarlandcomes in.
He was the creator of theinfamous fire festival.
The festival promised luxuryaccommodations and access to VIP
(23:17):
parties and celebrities.
However, it was all a scam thatbarely delivered on the
promises made to its members.
Even after being charged withwire fraud and conducting
schemes, he never showed remorsefor the fraud.
Even when admitting that theyweren't prepared to set up such
a festival at all, he stillrefuses to admit he lied to
investors, festival goers orother people involved.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I mean, didn't people end up at the damn beach and
like there?
Was no, like accommodations orsomething and like no bathrooms.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
There was nothing.
It was like.
It was like.
It was like showing up to abuilding that now has a furlough
sign on it After you've paidyour money.
You know what I?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
mean, you know how much I don't like being
physically uncomfortable and notlike.
That's why I don't do realpeople camping.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Right, but do you want to talk a little bit about,
like some of the age stuff withASPD as well?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, so so it usually actually begins.
Antisocial personality disorderusually begins before the age
of 15.
And, like I mentioned a littlebit before, the initial
diagnosis is going to be conductdisorder.
So they're going to showpatterns of like aggression,
disobedient behavior, lying,stealing, ignoring rules,
bullying kids, and then theanimal cruelty and setting fires
(24:39):
like ding ding, ding, ding.
We've got a problem here,seymour.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Is that a?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
thing, that's not a thing.
Who's Seymour?
This feed me?
Is Seymour?
Yeah, okay, so then they mighthave over-lipping conditions
like ADHD, depression and thenwhat I mentioned before,
oppositional defiant disorder.
Yeah, so when conduct disorderdiagnosis occurs, treatment
should begin stat right, and sothe chances are that those
(25:06):
behaviors are going to roll intobeing antisocial personality
disorder after age 18.
So, but that's, you know, likethe formality I mean the
behaviors are pretty much thesame, but supposedly they say,
although I don't know if this istrue, but they say that the
(25:26):
symptoms are the worst betweenages 20 and 40 and tend to
improve after 40.
And I guess I have a hard timebelieving that.
I have a hard time believingthat, but I don't.
I have no basis for the factthat I don't believe it.
I just don't believe it.
I don't know, do you, justafter 40, get so tired you don't
feel like setting fires andbeing like a psychopath anymore?
I have a hard time believingthat.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, this is sociopath, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, no, I'm sorry.
Yes, but either way, after 40,I don't think you clock out.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I don't think you clock out and no, but maybe,
maybe they can if it's someonethat's continuing treatment.
They're using those, thoseskills that they're learning to
self-regulate.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Like, well, I don't think so, because I don't think
most actually get treatment, tobe honest.
Yeah, so, but I like that, andif it's caught in childhood.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Maybe they are, you know, but some people you know,
there are several.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
There are more adults than not that never were
treated as a job for this, yeah,and then they think, like where
it comes from?
Right, there could be geneticcomposition.
To also like experiential, Ithink things are.
You know, brain biology is apiece of it.
Levels of serotonin is a pieceof it.
Amygdala can be a piece of it,you know, yeah.
(26:42):
So I think that can all kind ofbe clumped into the causality.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
You know also there.
You know the complications ofanti-social personality disorder
also.
You know it's a dangerous,often life threatening condition
to the affected person andothers around them, right.
It can lead to complicationssuch as abuse and cruelty, which
we've discussed, neglect,suicide, even We've talked about
this a lot substance abuse,alcohol, you know, use, arrest,
(27:13):
incarceration.
They can have healthcomplications, other mental
health conditions, depression,anxiety and the inability to
meet personal, social work oracademic commitments as well.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Right, we're talking about how their behavior affects
others, but, in all honesty,they're not skating through an
easy life if this is the lotthey have.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Right and you know like we want to.
You know, quickly bounce onlike diagnosis and tests.
We're not going to go throughall the things, but like a
healthcare provider is who isgoing to specialize in the
mental health conditions.
They'll be the ones thatdiagnose these things.
They'll do a psychologicalevaluation, but there's no like
self-assessment, a blood test orlike an image that can say, yep
(27:58):
, this one thing is going totell you that you have ASPD.
So it's really important thatif you're a parent and you have
a child that you're noticingsome things, let the
professionals handle that.
If you're around people as anadult that you feel or have that
are showing these symptoms,this is when you kind of take
(28:18):
the time to think is this persontoxic in my life?
And unfortunately, yes, theyare.
And then that's when you haveto set those boundaries.
You know, and like I said, wecan't diagnose other people, but
you can kind of get a feel forwhat's going on here and if
they're ticking all these boxes,you kind of got to look at
things and say this isn'thealthy for me.
(28:40):
So I need to skedaddle, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yes, please say that word when you do it too, that
you are done with this.
I'm gonna skedaddle, I'm notfeeling this anymore, and it
might be hard to.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
You might love this person and it might be hard to
tell them that you don't thinkthat the relationship serves you
in the way that it should.
But that's when you got to takea look and see what you really
want to get out of life yourselfand you know I have known
people that I believe, just fromexperience that might you know
(29:18):
have some ASPD and I've had toexcuse myself.
Mm-hmm boundaries I mean yeah,you have to set those boundaries
.
And if you need help settingthose boundaries, check out our
boundaries episode.
We get so great examples.
But you know, this does affectmore than just the person that
(29:39):
has the disorder.
It affects everyone around them, and so it's just more
important to do what's best foryou too.
Yeah, help yourself.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
And then if you I don't know if you already went
over and discussed medications.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
No, they do have some medications.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
So there is the possibility that I mean we're
not saying it's hopeless, right,there's treatment for
anti-social personality.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
If they want to have, if the person acknowledges that
they have it and they want thehelp.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
but that's kind of Because the medications yeah,
they can help treat things likeaggression and mood changes.
You can have cognitivebehavioral therapy, family
therapy, couples counseling,things like that.
It is difficult to treatclinically, because this is what
I was kind of referencing isthat people might not recognize
that their behaviors or theirthoughts are harmful.
(30:29):
So it can be pretty common thatif somebody is approached and
this is suggested, that theywill feel quite reactive to that
.
So, treatment's available.
But it's pretty hard for peopleto say, okay, I need it.
I mean and recognize it.
The same with what we run intowith narcissism being able to
(30:49):
have conversations about that,just getting somebody to
recognize that there's a problem.
But if we do, thenantidepressants, antipsychotics,
mood stabilizers those can bepart of what professionals are
using to treat it.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, and I feel like the earlier you start the
treatments of things, the betterthe outcome is.
So, it's really important thatparents and doctors and schools,
if they're noticing these, anytype of behavioral issues that a
child might have, that theyneed to look into it because it
(31:25):
can help them their whole lifeIf you don't do anything about
it and then it can also set themout for failure too.
So it's really important to justbe observant of things, but
there's no way to prevent ASPD.
If it's detected and diagnosedduring childhood, then there's a
(31:47):
chance that early treatmentcould reduce your risk of
developing ASPD as an adult,like we said.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
But it is a lifelong situation we're not.
Yeah, so that's kind of the kitand caboodle of this.
Do you have anything else youwanna add?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
No, I don't, I think that's pretty much it.
I'm just having flashbacks ofold relationships, of
friendships and things and I'mlike you don't really see.
You might see some of thesehere and there traits, but then
once you finally I feel like forme personally it's been a big
event that's happened, thatsomeone has done.
(32:26):
And then you're like whoa thishappened but wait, this and this
and this and this, I've gottaset my boundaries, I've gotta
excuse myself on thatrelationship.
So it's just, it's eye-openingfor those that aren't just for
sure.
But okay, we have it asked andanswered from Mitchell in
Arkansas and this is okay.
(32:49):
Okay Says hey there.
Thanksgiving is coming up andmy family is in all caps toxic.
This gathering includesimmediate family as well as
aunts, uncles, cousins.
Every get together involvessomeone getting into an argument
and then others gettinginvolved also.
It is draining.
The fights are more of theextended family.
(33:10):
I wanna suggest my siblings,their families and my parents
branch off and do our own thing,but I don't wanna hurt anyone's
feelings.
I don't know if I can take allof the fighting again this year.
I know my siblings would agree.
Any advice on how to bring thisup or what I should do if they
do not agree?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah.
So the first thing, Mitchell,that I would ask is why do other
people's feelings matter morethan your own?
And if you're going throughthis horrible experience every
year, your feelings count too.
So I would quick, in a hurry,send a group text to the
siblings that you think wouldsupport it and come up with a
plan.
Or do a Thanksgiving where youdecide that you're all gonna go
(33:52):
to another city and celebrate itaway somewhere, or you know
like.
But I would stop putting theother people who are instigating
this toxic smell first.
Put yourself first.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, you know, and I mean I'm all for, like you know
, just like my family, I havetwo thanksgivings every year.
Right, I have Jason's family'sThanksgiving and then we go and
do mine, which my family's mysiblings and my mom, you know
and our significant other.
So it's a small one, but I wouldsay like, if your parents still
wanna go to the hoopla, theycan still go, but why don't
(34:26):
y'all say, hey, we would like tohave a more intimate gathering
so we can spend more qualitytime together.
So let's do something onWednesday evening, that's the
siblings, the parents, all that.
And if the parents or whoeverwants to go to the shit show on
Thursday, then they can go.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
They can be your guest.
Go for it.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Sorry that you couldn't make it you have
private obligations.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Mm-hmm, you know, yeah, protect your boundaries,
that's it, that's it.
Stop worrying about the otherpeople's feelings.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Right, you gotta take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I hope you have a great Thanksgiving.
Yes, it's my favorite holiday.
Not the history, but the foods.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Like it's my favorite , yeah, but history's no good.
The foods, well, I don't evenlike turkey.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
My husband makes me a ham OK so Jason's a ham guy too
.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
He makes a turkey but he makes me a ham too.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I'll be 35 in June and I threw my sister a 35th
birthday and she was like whatdo you want me to do?
For your part, I'm like I wantyou to throw me Thanksgiving
dinner.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
That's funny, because it's my favorite food, that's
hysterical.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
It's my jam.
I love it.
All right, guys.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
This will help us move up thechart and be more accessible to
new listeners.
You can also follow us onsocial media Instagram and
Facebook.
We have those linked below.
If you have a question for ourAsk and Answer segment, email us
(36:04):
ataskusatsthellingthefairitycom.
Don't forget to check out ourwebsite, which is also linked
below.
We'll continue to add resourcesand information there as well.
I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
Stay safe out there.
We're your hosts, kathy Danmoreand Jess.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Lowe and then join us next time.
We're going to be discussingdifferent types of therapy.
We'll be breaking it down foryou, one sip at a time.
Welcome back to Stoing the Fairytee with
therapist Kathy Daymore andgrief coach Jess Lowe.
Hey, kathy, dan, hello, hello.
How's it going?
It's going well, I'm glad.
Today's Thursday yes.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm here for the weekend.
Do you have anything funplanned?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Nope, I am going to do all of my Thanksgiving food
shopping, like all the staplestuff that I need this weekend.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's impressive.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
You know, because, well, next week I'm going up to
Birmingham to see my sisterbecause we're going to a need to
breathe concert.
So, yeah, I don't even know whothat is.
I'll have to send you some oftheir jams, but we're going to
buy the tickets for my birthdayback in June, and so that's what
we're doing, and we're having areally fancy dinner which is my
(00:53):
gift to her for her birthday,which is an August.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So I'm taking her to a nice dry shot.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
She's taking me to an awesome concert and so that
weekend I don't want to have tolike deal with get all my stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
That's about it, and then for our listeners, I will
be seeing you soon.
I know I'm so excited, I am too, so that's exciting.
But yeah, what about you?
You went on your trip.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I went on my trip.
I went to LA.
I got to spend time with mybestie from college and her
three kids, who are adorable andI love them, so it was nice.
We just did a lot of like kidsstuff, you know, soccer and all
that kind of jazz, so and thefood there is really really good
(01:41):
.
So I enjoyed eating a lot offood and now I'm still a little
bit sick.
I don't know what is going onwith my like immune system.
Yeah, doug is really sick thisweek, so I know.
So this weekend I think he'llbe better, just in time for his
fishing tournament on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Of course he will be.
Of course he will be.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yes.
So I'm just going to kind oflay low this weekend and my
oldest is going to come andfinish the double doors.
Did I tell you I'm making thatroom into a library?
No, yeah, the front room in myhouse I'm converting it to a
library, cool.
So I've had him put Frenchdoors on, he and his buddy
Brandon, so they're going tocome finish it.
(02:23):
I ordered a rug, so I'm justgoing to do a little, like you
know I might paint this weekend.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, kind of regroup .
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, I need to regroup, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I feel you, I feel you, okay Well today's is
interesting.
Today's is interesting.
I feel like this word has beensomething we've discussed
privately and probably in yoursessions, quite often we have
really touched on it, but todaywe're going to talk about
sociopaths and psychopaths.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, and people use it loosely right.
I have plenty of clients thatare like I don't know, they're a
total sociopath.
I'm like there's an actualdefinition to what that is there
is.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So we're going to get into that, give some symptoms,
give some things to look out for.
But we're also going to touchon, like, relationships with
people that you know are asociopath or you know even you
know psycho, have psychopathictendencies and how, like you
relate to, you know relate tothat relationship, whether it's
(03:28):
platonic relationship, you knowromantic relationship and like,
is it something that's good foryou?
You know as well, being in arelationship with somebody that
you know has those traits.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Usually that's a no Right, but we're going to tell
you why, though?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
We're going to tell you why.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
If you, if the listener is thinking is it good
to be in a relationship?
The answer is no, we're justgoing to break down how to do
things.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And how to exit that relationship?
Yes, and if you can't what?
Boundaries look like Right, forsure, the definition of a
sociopath is a person with apersonality disorder manifesting
itself in extreme anti-socialattitudes and behaviors and a
lack of conscience.
And we're going to break thatdown, what anti-social attitudes
(04:13):
and behaviors really look like.
So some of the symptoms of asociopath.
They ignore right and wrong.
They might know what's rightand wrong, but they're they're
ignoring the key word beingignoring.
Right and then they're tellinglies to take advantage of others
.
Not being sensitive to orrespectful of others, they use
(04:34):
their charm or wit to manipulateothers for personal gain or
pleasure and they may have asense of superiority and become
extremely opinionated and theycan have problems with the law,
including criminal behavior.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I wonder people right now are like Some, but maybe
not all of that feels very muchlike narcissism.
Yeah Well, yeah, but you get tothe like problems with the law
and the criminal behavior.
That doesn't jive as much withnecessarily with narcissism that
it can't.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
A lot of things are like you know, that whole
comorbidity thing, like thingscan have similar symptoms and
things like that.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So you really got to dive deep and you know, learn
these differences the way I liketo say they like to play in the
sandbox together.
Yeah, there you go, I'll livein the pocket together.
Yes, so, and I do want to talka little bit about the
difference between A sociopathand a psychopath.
I think people use thoseinterchangeably and it's not the
same thing.
Yeah, so they they're used,often very casually, I think, to
(05:38):
describe people who generallylack empathy, they disregard,
like laws and rules.
They don't really care aboutother people's rights.
They can have violenttendencies Without a level of
guilt.
Yeah, so, while Sociopathy andpsychopathy are not formally
recognized as mental healthconditions, there are certain
(06:00):
mental health disorders thatinvolve features that are
considered Sociopathic orpsychopathic.
So we really want to be able tokind of find out the difference
.
So, in a nutshell, theSociopathy, the key feature to
sociopathic behavior.
It really includes that lack ofempathy, the lack of inhibition
, altered social andinterpersonal behaviors and
(06:23):
Impaired social and moraljudgments.
So this stuff that we'retalking about Today in general,
right if we're gonna go to thediagnosis piece of it.
Yes, all kind of falls under themental health diagnosis of
antisocial personality disorderor ASPD.
So when I say antisocialpersonality disorder, we are not
(06:45):
saying what people might thinkof when they think of the word
Antisocial like a recluse, butthat's not that, that's not it.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
So I know that that's what thatsounds like, but that's not
what this is.
So the common behaviors forpeople with ASPD really include
things like setting fires.
Okay so that's not just a one togo to a party right and Cruelty
(07:08):
to animals.
Those are babies, though.
They begin to show Oftensymptoms and childhood and we'll
talk about this more but thecondition really can't be
diagnosed Until kind of lateadolescence or adulthood.
So, and the behaviors includelying, breaking laws, acting
impulsively, lacking regard fortheir own safety or safety of
(07:30):
others.
So for the clinicians out therethat have done this again, this
is what you've probablydiagnosed when you're working
with younger kids asoppositional, defiant disorder
Is like kind of the firstlead-in diagnosis, because you
don't want to go heavy right outof the gate, or at least I
don't.
But then conduct order, conductis, I'm sorry, conduct disorder.
So, but a summary of that wouldbe someone a summary of
(07:54):
psychopathy, right?
Or, I'm sorry, sociopathy.
A summary of that would besomeone who has a long-term
pattern of Manipulating orexploiting and violating the
rights of others.
So, and the behavior iscriminal, criminal, okay.
So then let's talk about thedefining Psychopathy a little
(08:18):
bit, because there are someoverlaps.
Boldness and fearlessness arereally prominent features of
psychopathy.
And Then obviously ASPD.
So this one is reallycharacterized by shallow
emotional responses, lack ofempathy, impulsivity and an
(08:40):
increased likelihood ofantisocial behavior.
So individuals with psychopathyare responsible for an
inordinate proportion of crimesthat are committed.
So right, these are the onesthat we hear about on the news.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, so you want to talk a little bit about which
one those are.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
On true crime.
Exactly so.
The condition is a strongpredictor of how likely
someone's going to reoffendafter the release from prison.
So, within a year of releasefrom prison, people who have
what are considered psychopathictraits are about three times
more likely to commit anothercrime and four times more likely
(09:20):
to commit a violent crime.
So, yes, psychopathy typicallyhas an all-encompassing,
destructive impact on anindividual's life, work and
relationships.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So you would say that , like psychopathy, has more of
the violent tendencies?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yes, if we're just going to break it down to a
simple Is more like theemotional and mental abuse
patterns.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Correct, If you're?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
like yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
It's easier differential to differentiate
those.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That's a yes, like a more basic, easy way.
And what's interesting is thatthere's abnormalities in the
brain that may be responsiblefor certain symptoms of
psychopathy.
So some studies have found thatthe amygdala we talk about the
amygdala right a lot because itis our alert system in our brain
(10:14):
, the emotion processingstructure of the brain it's
actually this is like sointeresting to me it's actually
smaller in people withpsychopathy than it's then in
like typically developedindividuals.
It shows that the research hasfound that the amygdala also can
have deformities in people withpsychopathy.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Wow, that makes me like want to just take people
right in to get scanned.
Like let's just scan your head.
I'm not the kind of peoplewe're working with.
I'm for real Like that's reallyinteresting.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
No, I know, I feel like that's where brain science
is going to go, where we'regoing to be able to do a lot
more diagnostic work out of thegate to go okay, now what are we
going to do?
And we'll talk about this alittle bit like how are we going
to treat this?
In a way, because it doesprovide some empathy around
people who do really horriblethings.
Their brain structure looksdifferent, and so studies have
(11:10):
found that moderate to highlyinheritable genetic components
are there for psychopathy.
So one I think it's 2016 studyin the American Journal of
Psychiatry.
It tracked 561 kids that wereadopted during early infancy, so
not after they've had a lot ofexperience.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Like a year, year earlier.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, like with it I would say.
I mean, they didn't specify,but that's what I would say
within like the first year oflife.
So a children whose biologicalmoms reported a greater history
of severe antisocial behaviorand again we're not talking
about not wanting to go to aparty we're much more likely
those kids were much more likelyto exhibit psychopathy
(11:56):
behaviors than those whobiological, who had biological
mothers, who did not report ASPDbehaviors.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I know it's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I know.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Maybe not everybody, but we're nerdy, we're verbal.
We love that.
So the key differences, thoughthere are overlaps, like we've
discussed, but it's not alwayspossible or necessary to
determine whether someone hasone versus the other, but there
are differences.
For starters, someone withsociopathy is likely easier to
(12:28):
spot, so when a psychopathinteracts with you, if they get
upset, they can keep their cool.
The sociopath will lose it.
Yeah yeah, because they are moreemotional.
They, you know, even thoughthey like the empathy they don't
they don't like them forthemselves, like so with a
sociopath that things don't gothe way they want them to.
(12:49):
They'll get angry and could beaggressive.
This could be physicalaggression or even just with
their words, right, mm-hmm.
If there's someone withsociopathy in your life, you may
also notice other things thatare off and they might not fit
right in social settings andwe're not saying like they're in
the corner hiding.
They don't fit in socialsettings with the things they
(13:09):
speak about, the way they treatother people, that sort of thing
, and they have difficultyholding a job.
People with psychopathy, though, are the opposite.
They tend to be very successfuland well-liked, right.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yes and we're gonna give some examples.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, people that are pretty famous, that yes, so
people with psychopathy aresmooth operators.
This person will compliment you, make you feel good and just
say all of the right things.
They're also manipulative andare pros at gaining others trust
(13:47):
.
Someone who has traits ofpsychopathy might be more likely
to boldly defy socialexpectations, even to the point
of causing harm to others.
Someone who has traits ofsociopathy might be more
impulsive.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I don't feel like thereis cunning and planned right.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
So a sociopath usually doesn't cause harm or
distress, whereas a psychopathis usually more physically
violent and more prone to putothers in danger.
However, this isn't to say thatpsychopaths can't do harm or
engage in aggressive behavior.
You mean?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
sociopaths.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yes, sociopaths.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Sorry, yeah, they can't do harm or engage right
here and which makes me thinkabout, like people who come into
Session for me, like that I'm.
We are talking more aboutpeople who have sociopathic
tendencies.
Yes, psychopathic tendencies,yes.
But I will tell you side note Ihave had some kids, when I
(14:47):
still did community mentalhealth and I was going to the
homes when I was working innonprofit, that I thought, oh
boy, we should try this kiddo.
Right, you know there was a lotof early warning signs of
conduct disorder, right?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And you know you think people say, over that
person's psychopath, thatperson's sociocath, we're not
educated, okay, kathy.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
I'm not so like us in the general population we might
think people have have thesetraits and they very well could
be one of the two.
But leave that to theprofessionals, you know.
But in saying that I Know quitea few people.
I'm like, honestly, all of thethings we spoke about, I'm like
(15:32):
they could have they could be asociopath.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
One of the things that shows up a lot of times
with kids is when they hurtanimals, because that's what
they have access to.
So that's why we kind of, whenwe mentioned the animals and the
fire, those are two things thatkids have the access to do.
I've had a client once where ohthese there was a family.
He was a Younger brother, hehad an older sister and there
(16:00):
was the parents and I wasworking with the family and I
was working with a little boy.
He'd previously beenhospitalized for about a month
for safety concerns and At thispoint they had had to get rid of
the dog because he had brokenthe dog's legs.
They had then put a padlock onthe door because he would get up
(16:21):
in the middle of the night.
I mean it's a real, like a realsafety concern and these
parents don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I mean it's just, it's incredibly difficult, right
, and I say leave the diagnosislike diagnosing to the
professionals.
But still, if you're Seeingthese traits in somebody and
you're thinking, are they asociopath, set those boundaries
for yourself, which we'lldiscuss in a little bit, because
that's what you can do whenyou're encountering somebody
(16:51):
that you might think really hasthese, these characteristics,
right, that's what we can do thegeneral public, not the
educated, licensed professionals.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
You can still take care of yourself, even though I
know, oh sure, yes, it doesn'tmean you should just lay down
and take it now, right?
Okay, so I wanted to mention afew people that we all know
about, right.
So, ted Bundy he would be areally classic and famous
(17:24):
psychopath, very charming, right.
Women were supposedly quiteenchanted by him.
There's been, I think, at leasttwo recent Netflix things.
People love learning aboutsociopaths and psychopaths,
right, like we're all veryfascinated.
Yeah, you're fascinated Me too.
Yeah, so he killed at least 30people in the United States, and
(17:45):
so they found out that he hadantisocial personality disorder,
psychopathy, psychopathy Ialways butcher that word
psychopathy narcissisticpersonality disorder, borderline
bipolar, schizoid personalitydisorder and an addictive
disorder.
He had all the things.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
He had all the things you know, and he was so shi and
he was so shi and he was so shiand if you look at him, he I
mean so he both thought he waslike hot to trot.
Some people are like I don'treally see it.
But I mean back then heprobably was like more
attractive.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I mean he didn't float my boat, but like for sure
, like I didn't think he waslike murdering people all over
the place.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
You know, he was picked up right here in
Pensacola, like that's wherethey got him, like right down
the street.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
That's what I thought .
Yeah, did that look like Efronplay him?
He did yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Oh, is that upsetting to you.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I I like Zac Efron as an adult.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I'm sensing something .
I can't read it.
What's happening?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
As an adult.
Zac Efron yes, he glowed up forreal and I think that he over
because he played him.
I think people really looked atthe whole like over sexualizing
of Ted Bundy more than like seewhat happened, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And so I kind of have mixed feelings on that.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Casting, okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
He did a great job he did a great job.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
He looked so like he has a huge jaw.
I guess he like broke his jawand he had to have
reconstruction surgery andeveryone's like oh, he had he
had plastic surgery.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
He's like no, I broke my jaw, like yeah, he's a good
looking gentleman if we do sayso he did, yeah, yeah, okay, so
we're in agreement on that one.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
To snap something back in front.
That's for you, Zac Efron.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Okay.
So this one's very different,like moving out of the whole
mass murdering kind of situation.
Yeah, elizabeth Holmes, okay.
So, on the surface, right, thischicky is the pioneer in her
industry.
She's changing the world.
She's, you know, she's the onewho started Serenos, and so that
(19:49):
was at one point, a $10 billioncompany, so on the verge of
revolutionizing healthcare,right.
So the technology was aroundlike finding a drop of using a
drop of blood that would, thenthat would help diagnose this
long list of diseases.
So, and at its peak, she evenhas former secretary of state
(20:10):
sitting at the board ofdirectors for her company.
And then she and her partnerwere charged with, charged and
found guilty, with multiplecounts of wire fraud and even
being after she was indicted bya federal jury.
She continued to talk toinvestors about starting a new
business and denied anyallegations against her.
Like that bitch is not right.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Like mind blown, like what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
It's interesting how you can go from like the
murderous aspect to that, andthat's just as scary though.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yes, yeah, I mean not quite as scary because she
wasn't actually murdering people, but but I mean she was ruining
lives, just as devious, and shewas ruining lives for sure, you
know.
So, crazy, crazy.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Another one, John Wayne Gacy, which he is the
scariest one to me.
He freaks me out?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, I don't like clowns.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I don't like clowns at all, at all, at all Like they
make I'm sweating, I'm sweating.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I forgot about your thing with clowns.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I don't like them.
Yeah, I forgot about that.
And when I went to LA with mysister a couple of years ago, we
went to this place called Houseof Death oh, why would you do
that to yourself, I don't knowand it had all kinds of stuff
Like it had like taxidermin,like it had a taxidermin like
giraffe.
It was like that's some prettycool stuff like that.
(21:37):
You know, which was likeinteresting.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
They also had like serial killer stuff and they had
a lot of his like drawings fromgel, but anyways, his stuff
just screaming out just beingnear it, yeah, near it.
Yeah, it's paper, but on thesurface nothing about him made
him appear like a sociopath.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, okay, he had a business.
He received a man of the yearaward.
Wow, you know, like he hadphotos of himself with the first
man, first lady at the time,rosalind Carter.
Like you met first lady, mrsCarter, like you know he was
charming, he was an outstandingfigure to many who knew him.
(22:13):
He even entertained kids, likeI said, as a clown, at first
parties.
Right, yeah, years later,investigations led to the
discovery that he was also aserial killer, who later became
known as the clown killer, andhe never would have known.
You know, everyone that knewhim was like I never would have
guessed, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So imagine being killed by a clown.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, yes, you can, I've had them dream, those
aren't.
And then another one is BillyMcFarland, and I don't know if a
lot of people know who BillyMcFarland is if you're a certain
age, maybe but he's the guythat did like the fire festival.
You know he was trying to getthese all these singers and
everybody out for this firefestival.
(22:56):
So if you're not a music bestkind of person, then yeah, but
it's important that not allsociopaths are killers, right?
One of the, you know, mostdistinctive traits of a
sociopath is that they feel noremorse for their actions, even
after harming others.
That's where Billy McFarlandcomes in.
He was the creator of theinfamous fire festival.
The festival promised luxuryaccommodations and access to VIP
(23:17):
parties and celebrities.
However, it was all a scam thatbarely delivered on the
promises made to its members.
Even after being charged withwire fraud and conducting
schemes, he never showed remorsefor the fraud.
Even when admitting that theyweren't prepared to set up such
a festival at all, he stillrefuses to admit he lied to
investors, festival goers orother people involved.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I mean, didn't people end up at the damn beach and
like there?
Was no, like accommodations orsomething and like no bathrooms.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
There was nothing.
It was like.
It was like.
It was like showing up to abuilding that now has a furlough
sign on it After you've paidyour money.
You know what I?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
mean, you know how much I don't like being
physically uncomfortable and notlike.
That's why I don't do realpeople camping.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Right, but do you want to talk a little bit about,
like some of the age stuff withASPD as well?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, so so it usually actually begins.
Antisocial personality disorderusually begins before the age
of 15.
And, like I mentioned a littlebit before, the initial
diagnosis is going to be conductdisorder.
So they're going to showpatterns of like aggression,
disobedient behavior, lying,stealing, ignoring rules,
bullying kids, and then theanimal cruelty and setting fires
(24:39):
like ding ding, ding, ding.
We've got a problem here,seymour.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Is that a?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
thing, that's not a thing.
Who's Seymour?
This feed me?
Is Seymour?
Yeah, okay, so then they mighthave over-lipping conditions
like ADHD, depression and thenwhat I mentioned before,
oppositional defiant disorder.
Yeah, so when conduct disorderdiagnosis occurs, treatment
should begin stat right, and sothe chances are that those
(25:06):
behaviors are going to roll intobeing antisocial personality
disorder after age 18.
So, but that's, you know, likethe formality I mean the
behaviors are pretty much thesame, but supposedly they say,
although I don't know if this istrue, but they say that the
(25:26):
symptoms are the worst betweenages 20 and 40 and tend to
improve after 40.
And I guess I have a hard timebelieving that.
I have a hard time believingthat, but I don't.
I have no basis for the factthat I don't believe it.
I just don't believe it.
I don't know, do you, justafter 40, get so tired you don't
feel like setting fires andbeing like a psychopath anymore?
I have a hard time believingthat.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, this is sociopath, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, no, I'm sorry.
Yes, but either way, after 40,I don't think you clock out.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I don't think you clock out and no, but maybe,
maybe they can if it's someonethat's continuing treatment.
They're using those, thoseskills that they're learning to
self-regulate.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Like, well, I don't think so, because I don't think
most actually get treatment, tobe honest.
Yeah, so, but I like that, andif it's caught in childhood.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Maybe they are, you know, but some people you know,
there are several.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
There are more adults than not that never were
treated as a job for this, yeah,and then they think, like where
it comes from?
Right, there could be geneticcomposition.
To also like experiential, Ithink things are.
You know, brain biology is apiece of it.
Levels of serotonin is a pieceof it.
Amygdala can be a piece of it,you know, yeah.
(26:42):
So I think that can all kind ofbe clumped into the causality.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
You know also there.
You know the complications ofanti-social personality disorder
also.
You know it's a dangerous,often life threatening condition
to the affected person andothers around them, right.
It can lead to complicationssuch as abuse and cruelty, which
we've discussed, neglect,suicide, even We've talked about
this a lot substance abuse,alcohol, you know, use, arrest,
(27:13):
incarceration.
They can have healthcomplications, other mental
health conditions, depression,anxiety and the inability to
meet personal, social work oracademic commitments as well.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Right, we're talking about how their behavior affects
others, but, in all honesty,they're not skating through an
easy life if this is the lotthey have.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Right and you know like we want to.
You know, quickly bounce onlike diagnosis and tests.
We're not going to go throughall the things, but like a
healthcare provider is who isgoing to specialize in the
mental health conditions.
They'll be the ones thatdiagnose these things.
They'll do a psychologicalevaluation, but there's no like
self-assessment, a blood test orlike an image that can say, yep
(27:58):
, this one thing is going totell you that you have ASPD.
So it's really important thatif you're a parent and you have
a child that you're noticingsome things, let the
professionals handle that.
If you're around people as anadult that you feel or have that
are showing these symptoms,this is when you kind of take
(28:18):
the time to think is this persontoxic in my life?
And unfortunately, yes, theyare.
And then that's when you haveto set those boundaries.
You know, and like I said, wecan't diagnose other people, but
you can kind of get a feel forwhat's going on here and if
they're ticking all these boxes,you kind of got to look at
things and say this isn'thealthy for me.
(28:40):
So I need to skedaddle, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yes, please say that word when you do it too, that
you are done with this.
I'm gonna skedaddle, I'm notfeeling this anymore, and it
might be hard to.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
You might love this person and it might be hard to
tell them that you don't thinkthat the relationship serves you
in the way that it should.
But that's when you got to takea look and see what you really
want to get out of life yourselfand you know I have known
people that I believe, just fromexperience that might you know
(29:18):
have some ASPD and I've had toexcuse myself.
Mm-hmm boundaries I mean yeah,you have to set those boundaries
.
And if you need help settingthose boundaries, check out our
boundaries episode.
We get so great examples.
But you know, this does affectmore than just the person that
(29:39):
has the disorder.
It affects everyone around them, and so it's just more
important to do what's best foryou too.
Yeah, help yourself.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
And then if you I don't know if you already went
over and discussed medications.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
No, they do have some medications.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
So there is the possibility that I mean we're
not saying it's hopeless, right,there's treatment for
anti-social personality.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
If they want to have, if the person acknowledges that
they have it and they want thehelp.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
but that's kind of Because the medications yeah,
they can help treat things likeaggression and mood changes.
You can have cognitivebehavioral therapy, family
therapy, couples counseling,things like that.
It is difficult to treatclinically, because this is what
I was kind of referencing isthat people might not recognize
that their behaviors or theirthoughts are harmful.
(30:29):
So it can be pretty common thatif somebody is approached and
this is suggested, that theywill feel quite reactive to that
.
So, treatment's available.
But it's pretty hard for peopleto say, okay, I need it.
I mean and recognize it.
The same with what we run intowith narcissism being able to
(30:49):
have conversations about that,just getting somebody to
recognize that there's a problem.
But if we do, thenantidepressants, antipsychotics,
mood stabilizers those can bepart of what professionals are
using to treat it.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, and I feel like the earlier you start the
treatments of things, the betterthe outcome is.
So, it's really important thatparents and doctors and schools,
if they're noticing these, anytype of behavioral issues that a
child might have, that theyneed to look into it because it
(31:25):
can help them their whole lifeIf you don't do anything about
it and then it can also set themout for failure too.
So it's really important to justbe observant of things, but
there's no way to prevent ASPD.
If it's detected and diagnosedduring childhood, then there's a
(31:47):
chance that early treatmentcould reduce your risk of
developing ASPD as an adult,like we said.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
But it is a lifelong situation we're not.
Yeah, so that's kind of the kitand caboodle of this.
Do you have anything else youwanna add?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
No, I don't, I think that's pretty much it.
I'm just having flashbacks ofold relationships, of
friendships and things and I'mlike you don't really see.
You might see some of thesehere and there traits, but then
once you finally I feel like forme personally it's been a big
event that's happened, thatsomeone has done.
(32:26):
And then you're like whoa thishappened but wait, this and this
and this and this, I've gottaset my boundaries, I've gotta
excuse myself on thatrelationship.
So it's just, it's eye-openingfor those that aren't just for
sure.
But okay, we have it asked andanswered from Mitchell in
Arkansas and this is okay.
(32:49):
Okay Says hey there.
Thanksgiving is coming up andmy family is in all caps toxic.
This gathering includesimmediate family as well as
aunts, uncles, cousins.
Every get together involvessomeone getting into an argument
and then others gettinginvolved also.
It is draining.
The fights are more of theextended family.
(33:10):
I wanna suggest my siblings,their families and my parents
branch off and do our own thing,but I don't wanna hurt anyone's
feelings.
I don't know if I can take allof the fighting again this year.
I know my siblings would agree.
Any advice on how to bring thisup or what I should do if they
do not agree?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah.
So the first thing, Mitchell,that I would ask is why do other
people's feelings matter morethan your own?
And if you're going throughthis horrible experience every
year, your feelings count too.
So I would quick, in a hurry,send a group text to the
siblings that you think wouldsupport it and come up with a
plan.
Or do a Thanksgiving where youdecide that you're all gonna go
(33:52):
to another city and celebrate itaway somewhere, or you know
like.
But I would stop putting theother people who are instigating
this toxic smell first.
Put yourself first.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, you know, and I mean I'm all for, like you know
, just like my family, I havetwo thanksgivings every year.
Right, I have Jason's family'sThanksgiving and then we go and
do mine, which my family's mysiblings and my mom, you know
and our significant other.
So it's a small one, but I wouldsay like, if your parents still
wanna go to the hoopla, theycan still go, but why don't
(34:26):
y'all say, hey, we would like tohave a more intimate gathering
so we can spend more qualitytime together.
So let's do something onWednesday evening, that's the
siblings, the parents, all that.
And if the parents or whoeverwants to go to the shit show on
Thursday, then they can go.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
They can be your guest.
Go for it.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Sorry that you couldn't make it you have
private obligations.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Mm-hmm, you know, yeah, protect your boundaries,
that's it, that's it.
Stop worrying about the otherpeople's feelings.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Right, you gotta take care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I hope you have a great Thanksgiving.
Yes, it's my favorite holiday.
Not the history, but the foods.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Like it's my favorite , yeah, but history's no good.
The foods, well, I don't evenlike turkey.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
My husband makes me a ham OK so Jason's a ham guy too
.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
He makes a turkey but he makes me a ham too.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I'll be 35 in June and I threw my sister a 35th
birthday and she was like whatdo you want me to do?
For your part, I'm like I wantyou to throw me Thanksgiving
dinner.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
That's funny, because it's my favorite food, that's
hysterical.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
It's my jam.
I love it.
All right, guys.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
This will help us move up thechart and be more accessible to
new listeners.
You can also follow us onsocial media Instagram and
Facebook.
We have those linked below.
If you have a question for ourAsk and Answer segment, email us
(36:04):
ataskusatsthellingthefairitycom.
Don't forget to check out ourwebsite, which is also linked
below.
We'll continue to add resourcesand information there as well.
I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
Stay safe out there.
We're your hosts, kathy Danmoreand Jess.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Lowe and then join us next time.
We're going to be discussingdifferent types of therapy.
We'll be breaking it down foryou, one sip at a time.
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