October 6, 2023 • 25 mins
What if you could navigate through the stormy waters of infidelity and not only reach the shore but build a stronger bond on the other side? This episode promises to provide you with the essential tools, strategies, and insights to help you and your partner turn a crisis into an opportunity for growth. We shatter common misconceptions about infidelity, and reveal the potential for resilience and fortification within a relationship tested by betrayal.
Through an open conversation, we explore the path to recovery, stressing the vital role both partners play in the healing process. We delve into the value of sincere communication, boundary-setting, and trust rebuilding. Our goal is to provide you with a roadmap that will transform infidelity from a relationship ender to a hurdle that can be surmounted.
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https://spillingthetheratea.com/media
Affairs episode:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spilling-the-thera-tea/id1632302353?i=1000583377676
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DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not replace the advice you may be receiving from a licensed therapist.This podcast and website represents the opinions of KathyDan Moore, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Grief Coach Jess Lowe, and their guests to the show and website. The content here should not be taken as medical advice.
The content here is for informational purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions.Views and opinions expressed in the podcast and website are our own. While we make every effort to ensure that the information we are sharing is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
Privacy is of utmost importance to us. All people, places, and scenarios mentioned in the podcast have been changed to protect patient confidentiality.This website or podcast should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever, including but not limited to establishing “standard of care” in a legal sense or as a basis for expert witness testimony.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to spilling the therapy with
therapist Kathy Dan Moore andgrief coach Jess.
Hello, hey, kathy.
Yeah, hello Jess, how you doing.
I'm doing good.
I've been super tired this week, like just sleepy girl.
Yeah, it's cuz the weather hasbeen like Drizzly on and off,
but I'm in like the sleepy girlweek and I've got to get out of
(00:21):
it.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, that's it.
I hate that feeling a beat likefeeling like you have stuff
that you have to do and youcan't kite pole yourself.
Yeah, yeah, I have to givemyself shots now, yeah.
So I went to the Doctor, to thelady doctor, yeah, and I who's
a man, but actually it was alady and she seems to be gone
(00:45):
and she just left like no phonecall, no note.
She's just taking a time offLike a, like an extended
Debatical sabbatical orsomething, I don't even know.
but I was like, no, come back, Ilove her.
Her name is yeah she's an ARMPand she's amazing, but anyways.
So I'm seeing the other doctorwho I also like he did my
(01:06):
hysterectomy.
But I was in and I was like I'mjust tired and I just, you know
, weight gain.
That seems, yeah, like oldthings don't work.
And so they tested everythingand like my B12 was so, so low,
so I give myself injections Athome for okay, well, and then he
also told me, after all of myblood work, that apparently I've
(01:29):
already gone through menopause.
Did I tell you that?
No, yeah, I think I'm goingthrough it.
Of course, I wouldn't know,because I had a hysterectomy
like seven or eight years ago.
So, right, how would we know?
I?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
just know that I've been like sweaty.
I feel like I'm going throughit.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Too young.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
But they told me that , like so, I kept my ovaries,
but they told me to the blood.
Like I didn't regain that Likethe blood flow correctly.
So, like it, they likeshriveled up and like are like
little raisins in there.
So I was on hormones foreverbut I was just getting such bad
side effects from them.
So I definitely feel like Ihave moments where I'm like, oh
(02:15):
my gosh, because it feels likean egg cracks on your head and
it just like drizzles down andit's like hot and I'm like, oh,
so maybe I need to go back to mydoctor.
Yeah my B12.
I feel like my B12 slow.
I used to get shots but I wouldlove to give them to myself.
That make it so much easier.
I know it did well.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
When I went she was like alright, I'm not good with
needles or shots, even thoughI've been giving Billy a shot
once a week since she was likethree for her arthritis, right,
but it's still like traumatic.
It was traumatic doing it forher.
I'm not a needle person.
And I got in there and thenurse said okay, so go ahead,
you're gonna hold it like this.
I About how to panic attackwhen I thought I was like, oh no
(02:58):
, you do it and she goes.
Well, we need to make sure youknow how to do it.
When you do it at home, I go,I'll watch really carefully.
Please don't make me do it.
I have a very loving husband athome.
He'll do it.
I can't do it but now.
So she did do it, then Kevin'sand then Doug did it I think
twice for me, and he justdoesn't like doing that kind of
(03:18):
stuff when it causes me pain.
It makes him really, yeah,uncomfortable.
So I just did, I started doingit.
I'm really pretty proud ofmyself.
I.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Don't tell us, jason, to stab me with a needle.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I don't.
He would do it wrong, theneedle would bend, there would
be issues like that.
He would try really hard, but Ijust don't think it would work
for me.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'm glad you said the word trust.
This is a perfect segue intowhat we're talking about today.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I trust it with my life, just not needles.
Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
That's fair.
Okay, so today we're going totalk about infidelity, even
though we have talked about itbefore.
We did an episode on differenttypes of affairs and I'm
thinking maybe I should do someresearch and put a little
homework ahead of time and beable to reference back to the
number episode that when Ireference things.
(04:19):
But anyways, neither here northere I don't know what a number
episode it was, but types ofaffairs was covered already.
But this week we thought it'dbe interesting to kind of talk
about couples who recover frominfidelity.
Yeah, so a lot of couples and Ican certainly speak to this
experience infidelity a lot andthey're either unwilling or
(04:45):
they're unable to do anythingabout it.
And hey, like, no shame in yourgame.
I'm not saying if there's beeninfidelity it's terrible for you
to end it.
I'm not saying that at all.
I actually think there's a lotof shame put on people who have
been cheated on, who decide towork on it.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I think so too.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, which I hate that, but anyways, but it's okay
.
But there are people who resignthemselves.
The fact that the relationshipwill either continue on in a
really fractured way or thatit's going to end Okay.
But there are couples that sortof find their way to a stronger
(05:28):
relationship and betrayalreally doesn't have to be the
end of their relationship story.
There are people who specializein this.
I know that we've talked aboutthis a little bit before, but
State of Affairs is a book.
We've recommended, yeah, acouple different books.
We can re-recommend them at theend.
(05:48):
But so, no matter howimpossible, hopeless or
devastating the situation feelsand it does feel that way it is
a trauma, but couples do getthrough this.
And so, as a matter of fact, Ireally feel very strongly about
this, and Lee and I who we'vehad on the podcast before, had
her on twice are in the processof creating a course.
(06:11):
We have a lot of the content.
We just need to kind of tie itup in a pretty bow called the
infidelity recovery method,betrayal to renewal.
So where we're sort of offeringacknowledgement, validation,
support, compassion,understanding and providing
really evidence-based strategiesand tangible, concrete
(06:32):
information and resources aroundthis.
So we decided to create theprogram out of a tremendous need
for a practical roadmap toguide couples through the
difficult journey of recoveryfrom betrayal to renewal.
It's a tough, tough road Gettingfrom affairs or any form of
intimacy.
Betrayal is not the same asdealing with relationship
(06:54):
problems.
I mean, those are difficult too, but this is a whole other
beast right.
And when an affair is disclosedin a relationship, whether it's
by discovery or by confession,it sets that relationship into a
complete tailspin.
So it's truly a trauma and itcan feel like the person is lost
(07:16):
, people are lost, therelationship is lost, but you
can't really race to the finishline.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about that today.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, so we want people to know that after
infidelity.
Relationships are never thesame, but in some ways that's a
good thing.
Your first relationship is over.
Over this is the time, yeah,over Over.
This is the time where youchoose to do the difficult work
required to begin reimaginingyour second relationship with
that person.
Each situation is unique andcomplex.
(07:46):
However, there are a few thingsthat are necessary for couples
to successfully navigaterecovery from affairs.
So one of them is recoveryworks when both people are
committed to trying, and wecannot emphasize this strongly
enough.
This is vital.
This is the number one thingyeah, if you're both not in it
to repair this, it's not goingto work Right.
(08:07):
And the number two completetransparency and honesty.
This includes transparentresolution of the affair as well
.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah.
So on that one, I always tellcouples in the very first
session when they come in andthe priority in the main issue
that's brought them in asinfidelity is get it all out.
Right now we can make realstrides and we can do quality
(08:35):
work around how to heal thisrelationship.
But if you're going to trickletruth this, it is going to be
damn near impossible for me tokind of help you navigate this.
So take the pain upfront withbeing completely transparent,
because now all of it's on thetable and we can start doing the
(08:58):
work and it's real work.
So yeah, that's a big.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
And then also you talk about accountability for
both partners a lot too.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, we do.
And I really like to say onthat, with accountability we've
talked about this before you andI have talked about this before
Accountability sounds like uh,so um, you're a horrible person
and you need to takeaccountability for what you've
done wrong.
And I just want to reframe it.
I tell my clients all the timejust the word is accounting in
(09:26):
there.
Take account for what you did,take account for how you showed
up and in different ways.
It doesn't.
This isn't a shame game, whichis going to be what we talk
about next week, but this isn'ta shame game, right?
This is how do you take accountfor your role?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
And we're saying that for both partners and you're
like thinking what do you mean?
Both partners, one personcheated or whatever, but the
thing is, it's a partnership.
So, there you know no one'sperfect in a relationship or not
blaming you for your husbandcheating on you or your wife
cheating on you, but takeaccountability for your part in
(10:04):
that relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Sure, absolutely yeah .
Speaker 1 (10:08):
And then also creating a shared vision of the
future.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, Don't we feel lost when we don't really have a
map of where we want to go orwant it to look or what?
We're sure?
And I think that too.
I mean obviously I could go onabout this topic forever, I'm
going to try to like reign it inbut I think too is that
sometimes it leads to infidelitywhen we haven't really spent
(10:33):
enough time creating a sharedvision with our partner about
what we want in our lives and inour relationship.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, and your vision that you thought you had
together could change intosomething different in this new
relationship that you're tryingto navigate.
So yeah, and then also turninvestment in the success of the
relationship by both partnersand an understanding of how each
person defines investment.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, how do you define being like cooperative?
How do you define beingtransparent?
That's a biggie, you know Ican't state that one enough, but
yeah, so, and we want toexplore some of the common
misconceptions about infidelity.
So, which includes that peoplesay that infidelity is always a
(11:20):
sign that the cheater is unhappyin their relationship, and this
really is not necessarily true.
I'm not saying it's not true attimes, but not like
commensurate of all of thesecase scenarios.
Is that true?
Even happy people cheat?
Yeah, no, I know lots of peoplewho have been happy and still
(11:43):
cheated.
So, yeah, you can have both ofthose.
It's that dialectics thingagain.
Right, absolutely, you can behappy in your relationship and
you could cheat on your spouse.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, because you could be thinking that your
spouse might not be giving youone of the things, although
you're not unhappy about it, butyou're seeking it elsewhere.
You're getting all this otherlove and affection and you know
all the things Right.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Right and infidelity.
People think infidelity isalways sexual, so which is so,
not true?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I know someone like they had an emotional affair for
years never years years and itwas all online, yeah, so they
weren't having right, you knowjust yeah, it's just not correct
.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Not all infidelity involves sexual activity.
Emotional cheating isconsidered infidelity, and we've
talked about that the last time, so we could back to if I knew
the number of the podcast, Iwould tell you.
Insert number.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
There are so many.
We're on episode 52 guys.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
So another misconception is that infidelity
always leads to the end of arelationship.
So while many relationships doend due to infidelity, that's
just not always the case.
So keep you know some coupleschoose to work through the
infidelity and repair therelationship.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I'm just thinking about, I'm just thinking about
someone that I know, thatthought about, you know, trying
to work through it.
But again we go back to it hasto be both people willing and if
the other person is not willing, then you know.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
yeah can't happen, so no.
And then how about the ideathat only men cheat?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Oh Lord, I honestly know more than I have done the
cheating.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
honestly, this is a really harmful stereotype Women
can't end due to just as oftenas men.
So and then this one if someonecheats once, they'll always
cheat, and that is justabsolutely false.
So are there individuals whoare serial cheaters?
Absolutely right, but somepeople make mistakes and they
(14:11):
really learn from them.
And I've seen this with couplesmany, many, many times over,
and I feel like I can tell whatI hope like.
I hope this isn't going tosound too like I don't know
myself, I don't know the rightword, but but I can tell, like I
can get a feeling when somebodyis truly so disappointed in
(14:35):
themselves and so vested infiguring out what was going on,
that this just the idea of evercheating again and the near
wreckage of their lives.
They just would never, ever doit again.
So it's not true when people doit once, they'll continue to do
it.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
So you know, yeah and some valuable reminders that
are.
You know, just like in life,there is no absolute finish line
.
We've talked about this in ourrelationship episode, that the
stages of the relationship.
It's a constant work.
You know the relationship willonly be healed through the
effort that each person isputting in.
(15:15):
There's no one-size-fits-allanswer to this question.
Generally speaking, thefollowing are some key
responsibilities that can helpboth partners in the path to
recovery.
So the person who is cheatedshould take full responsibility
for their actions.
Hard stop.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, like punctuate Explanation point.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, this may involve admitting to the affair,
providing any necessaryinformation, answering questions
, expressing remorse andcommitting to making changes to
prevent future infidelity.
Then the partner who has beencheated on should take the
(16:00):
necessary time and space toprocess their emotions without
being pressured or rushed bythat other partner.
And that's, you know, hard,because I know that we have a
lot of people that come in foryou know, for a fair recovery at
the counseling group and thepartner that's done.
The cheating is like wanting tofix this, wanting to fix this
if they're trying to stay inthat relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
but they have to give that partner that time to
process and they get frustratedbecause they hear over and over
again by the betrayer like I'veanswered these questions already
and I was like keep answering.
Answering them, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, this, could you know, include seeking therapy
or counseling for the partnerthat was cheated on, either
individual or, you know, and, ofcourse, couples, but setting
boundaries, expressing theirfeelings and deciding whether
they want to continue thatrelationship.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Both partners should be committed to honest and open
communication with each other.
This may involve setting timeaside to talk, being willing to
listen and validate each other'sfeelings, and being willing to
be vulnerable and share theirown emotions.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And I would say that it not only may involve setting
time aside to talk.
It needs to, it has to.
Yeah, it's a priority.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then also, both partnersshould be willing to work
together to reveal that trust inthe relationship.
This may involve setting clearexpectations, being reliable and
consistent, following throughon commitments and being
transparent and accountable backto the things you're talking at
the very beginning of theepisode.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
So there's those two, those two wonderful words again
.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, transparent, countable.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah.
So, and when infidelity happens, the partner who is the
betrayer I and Anley and I Imentioned that we were doing
this podcast today until we werechatting a little bit yesterday
about it and she was saying,yes, what she said.
I want you to punctuate.
This Betrayer almost always issaying, especially right on the
(18:02):
heels of it.
Let me say this Tell me what Ineed to do, tell me what I would
approve to you that I'm goingto be faithful, you know.
Tell me what do you need fromme?
That is, you know, and itsounds great.
It sounds like you're reallyinvested.
But a helpful way to look atthis is to turn to the betrayer
and ask them the real questions,which is what do you need to do
(18:27):
to fix the part of you thatcould step outside the boundary
of this relationship and engagein these behaviors?
Right, yeah, right.
What do you need to do toaddress the part of you that
ignored me and had zerocompassion for me and my
(18:50):
feelings?
So, because the the import, Iknow these are tough ones, right
, but it's important that we'renot going to put all the onus on
the person who's been betrayedto come up with the answers,
right, and I just think that islike a very powerful way to
frame it.
And the people who arebetrayers that are willing to
(19:11):
dig into finding the answers tothose questions, they have a lot
of hope in how they're going tobe able to navigate their way
to what the next from of thisrelationship is going to look
like.
Right, and I say it all thetime, I'm going to say it all
the time Trust is lost in gainedand droplets.
This takes time, or get thatput on a t-shirt.
(19:32):
That's what we should do.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Because that is true?
That is true Because we have,like the spilling the thera tea,
the tea droplets on our logothere, the tea droplets yeah, I
don't know, maybe we work thatinto.
We're going to add that to themerch line.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah, exactly, and we will definitely link our
previous episode on a fair tothis at the bottom of the show
notes so you can easily track itto that as well.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
A tube banger, if you will.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, and also on our website.
We have all of the books thatwe've spoken about, and also in
the previous episodes aboutaffairs, on our website as well.
So those are the names.
Yay, we have an answer.
Yay, okay, it's from Andrea inMonroe, louisiana.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Hi Andrea.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
My son is in the third grade and has been a
victim of bullying this year.
His self-esteem has visiblychanged and he dreads going to
school.
I hate this for him and he'salways like school.
I've addressed the teachers andschool staff to let them know
what is going on, but he stillcomes home upset most days.
How do I help him see how greatof a kiddo he is and to help
(20:41):
him know that the things thesebullies say are not true?
Any advice, mm-hmm?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yes, I do so one of.
The longer I do EMDR, the moreI see connective tissue between
things that are targets forpeople not to go too much into
like how to do EMDR We've talkedabout it before.
But and bullying pops up overand over again, right, and I
(21:07):
can't tell you, even when peoplearen't choosing the target of
bullying, they might be choosingsomething else in their
childhood.
Once we start the bilateralstimulation and I stop it to
check in, they've gone to abullying incident.
So I take this really, reallyseriously because I do think
it's incredibly impactful in thedevelopment of kids.
(21:28):
Bullying is tough when you're anadult, but when you're a child
and your brain is still formingand you're trying to make sense
of it, it's really impactful.
So I mean I would continue totalk to the teachers and have
meetings with the teachers toask her to give you a little bit
of you know, fill in thepicture of what's happening with
these bullying behaviors sothat you can get a better sense
(21:50):
of it.
Because his self report,although I'm sure has some
accuracy, is probably missingsome of what's going on that
another adult might be able tolike offer you.
But the other thing is thereare therapists who are EMDR
trained for kids, and I reallysuggest getting your kiddo in to
(22:13):
see somebody like that becauseit will help him start to create
an adaptive story around thisongoing trauma right and help
change his self limiting beliefsso that it will just arm him
with some additional resiliencyaround it.
So I would look at doingsomething like that.
(22:35):
I agree, that's all I can sayyeah, yeah, I definitely agree.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I think you've given her some great advice.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, it's a rough one, that's, it's hard.
I mean even just.
I actually had a client earliertoday who was talking about
just a kiddo that had been endedup switching schools, that had
been really, really bullying oneof her kiddos and as moms, we
both agree that you just want togo for the jugular, right yeah?
(23:05):
Yeah, I mean, you feel sodefensive of your child and we
know, you know, from aperspective like of from an
outside perspective, you knowthat something's going on with
the bullier, right?
Yeah, absolutely, and I canhave empathy around that.
But, oh my gosh, as a parent,it is just heartbreaking.
(23:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Hang in there.
Yeah, hang in there, all right.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please leave us a
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If you have a question for usand answered segment, email us
(23:53):
at.
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Don't forget to check out ourwebsite, spilling the therapy
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there as well.
I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
We are your hosts, kathy DanMoore and Jess Lip.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
And join us next time we are going to be discussing
the difference between shame andguilt.
We'll be breaking it down onesip at a time.
Welcome back to spilling the therapy with
therapist Kathy Dan Moore andgrief coach Jess.
Hello, hey, kathy.
Yeah, hello Jess, how you doing.
I'm doing good.
I've been super tired this week, like just sleepy girl.
Yeah, it's cuz the weather hasbeen like Drizzly on and off,
but I'm in like the sleepy girlweek and I've got to get out of
(00:21):
it.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, that's it.
I hate that feeling a beat likefeeling like you have stuff
that you have to do and youcan't kite pole yourself.
Yeah, yeah, I have to givemyself shots now, yeah.
So I went to the Doctor, to thelady doctor, yeah, and I who's
a man, but actually it was alady and she seems to be gone
(00:45):
and she just left like no phonecall, no note.
She's just taking a time offLike a, like an extended
Debatical sabbatical orsomething, I don't even know.
but I was like, no, come back, Ilove her.
Her name is yeah she's an ARMPand she's amazing, but anyways.
So I'm seeing the other doctorwho I also like he did my
(01:06):
hysterectomy.
But I was in and I was like I'mjust tired and I just, you know
, weight gain.
That seems, yeah, like oldthings don't work.
And so they tested everythingand like my B12 was so, so low,
so I give myself injections Athome for okay, well, and then he
also told me, after all of myblood work, that apparently I've
(01:29):
already gone through menopause.
Did I tell you that?
No, yeah, I think I'm goingthrough it.
Of course, I wouldn't know,because I had a hysterectomy
like seven or eight years ago.
So, right, how would we know?
I?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
just know that I've been like sweaty.
I feel like I'm going throughit.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Too young.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
But they told me that , like so, I kept my ovaries,
but they told me to the blood.
Like I didn't regain that Likethe blood flow correctly.
So, like it, they likeshriveled up and like are like
little raisins in there.
So I was on hormones foreverbut I was just getting such bad
side effects from them.
So I definitely feel like Ihave moments where I'm like, oh
(02:15):
my gosh, because it feels likean egg cracks on your head and
it just like drizzles down andit's like hot and I'm like, oh,
so maybe I need to go back to mydoctor.
Yeah my B12.
I feel like my B12 slow.
I used to get shots but I wouldlove to give them to myself.
That make it so much easier.
I know it did well.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
When I went she was like alright, I'm not good with
needles or shots, even thoughI've been giving Billy a shot
once a week since she was likethree for her arthritis, right,
but it's still like traumatic.
It was traumatic doing it forher.
I'm not a needle person.
And I got in there and thenurse said okay, so go ahead,
you're gonna hold it like this.
I About how to panic attackwhen I thought I was like, oh no
(02:58):
, you do it and she goes.
Well, we need to make sure youknow how to do it.
When you do it at home, I go,I'll watch really carefully.
Please don't make me do it.
I have a very loving husband athome.
He'll do it.
I can't do it but now.
So she did do it, then Kevin'sand then Doug did it I think
twice for me, and he justdoesn't like doing that kind of
(03:18):
stuff when it causes me pain.
It makes him really, yeah,uncomfortable.
So I just did, I started doingit.
I'm really pretty proud ofmyself.
I.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Don't tell us, jason, to stab me with a needle.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I don't.
He would do it wrong, theneedle would bend, there would
be issues like that.
He would try really hard, but Ijust don't think it would work
for me.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'm glad you said the word trust.
This is a perfect segue intowhat we're talking about today.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I trust it with my life, just not needles.
Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
That's fair.
Okay, so today we're going totalk about infidelity, even
though we have talked about itbefore.
We did an episode on differenttypes of affairs and I'm
thinking maybe I should do someresearch and put a little
homework ahead of time and beable to reference back to the
number episode that when Ireference things.
(04:19):
But anyways, neither here northere I don't know what a number
episode it was, but types ofaffairs was covered already.
But this week we thought it'dbe interesting to kind of talk
about couples who recover frominfidelity.
Yeah, so a lot of couples and Ican certainly speak to this
experience infidelity a lot andthey're either unwilling or
(04:45):
they're unable to do anythingabout it.
And hey, like, no shame in yourgame.
I'm not saying if there's beeninfidelity it's terrible for you
to end it.
I'm not saying that at all.
I actually think there's a lotof shame put on people who have
been cheated on, who decide towork on it.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I think so too.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, which I hate that, but anyways, but it's okay
.
But there are people who resignthemselves.
The fact that the relationshipwill either continue on in a
really fractured way or thatit's going to end Okay.
But there are couples that sortof find their way to a stronger
(05:28):
relationship and betrayalreally doesn't have to be the
end of their relationship story.
There are people who specializein this.
I know that we've talked aboutthis a little bit before, but
State of Affairs is a book.
We've recommended, yeah, acouple different books.
We can re-recommend them at theend.
(05:48):
But so, no matter howimpossible, hopeless or
devastating the situation feelsand it does feel that way it is
a trauma, but couples do getthrough this.
And so, as a matter of fact, Ireally feel very strongly about
this, and Lee and I who we'vehad on the podcast before, had
her on twice are in the processof creating a course.
(06:11):
We have a lot of the content.
We just need to kind of tie itup in a pretty bow called the
infidelity recovery method,betrayal to renewal.
So where we're sort of offeringacknowledgement, validation,
support, compassion,understanding and providing
really evidence-based strategiesand tangible, concrete
(06:32):
information and resources aroundthis.
So we decided to create theprogram out of a tremendous need
for a practical roadmap toguide couples through the
difficult journey of recoveryfrom betrayal to renewal.
It's a tough, tough road Gettingfrom affairs or any form of
intimacy.
Betrayal is not the same asdealing with relationship
(06:54):
problems.
I mean, those are difficult too, but this is a whole other
beast right.
And when an affair is disclosedin a relationship, whether it's
by discovery or by confession,it sets that relationship into a
complete tailspin.
So it's truly a trauma and itcan feel like the person is lost
(07:16):
, people are lost, therelationship is lost, but you
can't really race to the finishline.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about that today.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, so we want people to know that after
infidelity.
Relationships are never thesame, but in some ways that's a
good thing.
Your first relationship is over.
Over this is the time, yeah,over Over.
This is the time where youchoose to do the difficult work
required to begin reimaginingyour second relationship with
that person.
Each situation is unique andcomplex.
(07:46):
However, there are a few thingsthat are necessary for couples
to successfully navigaterecovery from affairs.
So one of them is recoveryworks when both people are
committed to trying, and wecannot emphasize this strongly
enough.
This is vital.
This is the number one thingyeah, if you're both not in it
to repair this, it's not goingto work Right.
(08:07):
And the number two completetransparency and honesty.
This includes transparentresolution of the affair as well
.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah.
So on that one, I always tellcouples in the very first
session when they come in andthe priority in the main issue
that's brought them in asinfidelity is get it all out.
Right now we can make realstrides and we can do quality
(08:35):
work around how to heal thisrelationship.
But if you're going to trickletruth this, it is going to be
damn near impossible for me tokind of help you navigate this.
So take the pain upfront withbeing completely transparent,
because now all of it's on thetable and we can start doing the
(08:58):
work and it's real work.
So yeah, that's a big.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
And then also you talk about accountability for
both partners a lot too.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, we do.
And I really like to say onthat, with accountability we've
talked about this before you andI have talked about this before
Accountability sounds like uh,so um, you're a horrible person
and you need to takeaccountability for what you've
done wrong.
And I just want to reframe it.
I tell my clients all the timejust the word is accounting in
(09:26):
there.
Take account for what you did,take account for how you showed
up and in different ways.
It doesn't.
This isn't a shame game, whichis going to be what we talk
about next week, but this isn'ta shame game, right?
This is how do you take accountfor your role?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
And we're saying that for both partners and you're
like thinking what do you mean?
Both partners, one personcheated or whatever, but the
thing is, it's a partnership.
So, there you know no one'sperfect in a relationship or not
blaming you for your husbandcheating on you or your wife
cheating on you, but takeaccountability for your part in
(10:04):
that relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Sure, absolutely yeah .
Speaker 1 (10:08):
And then also creating a shared vision of the
future.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, Don't we feel lost when we don't really have a
map of where we want to go orwant it to look or what?
We're sure?
And I think that too.
I mean obviously I could go onabout this topic forever, I'm
going to try to like reign it inbut I think too is that
sometimes it leads to infidelitywhen we haven't really spent
(10:33):
enough time creating a sharedvision with our partner about
what we want in our lives and inour relationship.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, and your vision that you thought you had
together could change intosomething different in this new
relationship that you're tryingto navigate.
So yeah, and then also turninvestment in the success of the
relationship by both partnersand an understanding of how each
person defines investment.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, how do you define being like cooperative?
How do you define beingtransparent?
That's a biggie, you know Ican't state that one enough, but
yeah, so, and we want toexplore some of the common
misconceptions about infidelity.
So, which includes that peoplesay that infidelity is always a
(11:20):
sign that the cheater is unhappyin their relationship, and this
really is not necessarily true.
I'm not saying it's not true attimes, but not like
commensurate of all of thesecase scenarios.
Is that true?
Even happy people cheat?
Yeah, no, I know lots of peoplewho have been happy and still
(11:43):
cheated.
So, yeah, you can have both ofthose.
It's that dialectics thingagain.
Right, absolutely, you can behappy in your relationship and
you could cheat on your spouse.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, because you could be thinking that your
spouse might not be giving youone of the things, although
you're not unhappy about it, butyou're seeking it elsewhere.
You're getting all this otherlove and affection and you know
all the things Right.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Right and infidelity.
People think infidelity isalways sexual, so which is so,
not true?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I know someone like they had an emotional affair for
years never years years and itwas all online, yeah, so they
weren't having right, you knowjust yeah, it's just not correct
.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Not all infidelity involves sexual activity.
Emotional cheating isconsidered infidelity, and we've
talked about that the last time, so we could back to if I knew
the number of the podcast, Iwould tell you.
Insert number.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
There are so many.
We're on episode 52 guys.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
So another misconception is that infidelity
always leads to the end of arelationship.
So while many relationships doend due to infidelity, that's
just not always the case.
So keep you know some coupleschoose to work through the
infidelity and repair therelationship.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I'm just thinking about, I'm just thinking about
someone that I know, thatthought about, you know, trying
to work through it.
But again we go back to it hasto be both people willing and if
the other person is not willing, then you know.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
yeah can't happen, so no.
And then how about the ideathat only men cheat?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Oh Lord, I honestly know more than I have done the
cheating.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
honestly, this is a really harmful stereotype Women
can't end due to just as oftenas men.
So and then this one if someonecheats once, they'll always
cheat, and that is justabsolutely false.
So are there individuals whoare serial cheaters?
Absolutely right, but somepeople make mistakes and they
(14:11):
really learn from them.
And I've seen this with couplesmany, many, many times over,
and I feel like I can tell whatI hope like.
I hope this isn't going tosound too like I don't know
myself, I don't know the rightword, but but I can tell, like I
can get a feeling when somebodyis truly so disappointed in
(14:35):
themselves and so vested infiguring out what was going on,
that this just the idea of evercheating again and the near
wreckage of their lives.
They just would never, ever doit again.
So it's not true when people doit once, they'll continue to do
it.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
So you know, yeah and some valuable reminders that
are.
You know, just like in life,there is no absolute finish line
.
We've talked about this in ourrelationship episode, that the
stages of the relationship.
It's a constant work.
You know the relationship willonly be healed through the
effort that each person isputting in.
(15:15):
There's no one-size-fits-allanswer to this question.
Generally speaking, thefollowing are some key
responsibilities that can helpboth partners in the path to
recovery.
So the person who is cheatedshould take full responsibility
for their actions.
Hard stop.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah, like punctuate Explanation point.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, this may involve admitting to the affair,
providing any necessaryinformation, answering questions
, expressing remorse andcommitting to making changes to
prevent future infidelity.
Then the partner who has beencheated on should take the
(16:00):
necessary time and space toprocess their emotions without
being pressured or rushed bythat other partner.
And that's, you know, hard,because I know that we have a
lot of people that come in foryou know, for a fair recovery at
the counseling group and thepartner that's done.
The cheating is like wanting tofix this, wanting to fix this
if they're trying to stay inthat relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
but they have to give that partner that time to
process and they get frustratedbecause they hear over and over
again by the betrayer like I'veanswered these questions already
and I was like keep answering.
Answering them, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, this, could you know, include seeking therapy
or counseling for the partnerthat was cheated on, either
individual or, you know, and, ofcourse, couples, but setting
boundaries, expressing theirfeelings and deciding whether
they want to continue thatrelationship.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Both partners should be committed to honest and open
communication with each other.
This may involve setting timeaside to talk, being willing to
listen and validate each other'sfeelings, and being willing to
be vulnerable and share theirown emotions.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And I would say that it not only may involve setting
time aside to talk.
It needs to, it has to.
Yeah, it's a priority.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then also, both partnersshould be willing to work
together to reveal that trust inthe relationship.
This may involve setting clearexpectations, being reliable and
consistent, following throughon commitments and being
transparent and accountable backto the things you're talking at
the very beginning of theepisode.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
So there's those two, those two wonderful words again
.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, transparent, countable.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah.
So, and when infidelity happens, the partner who is the
betrayer I and Anley and I Imentioned that we were doing
this podcast today until we werechatting a little bit yesterday
about it and she was saying,yes, what she said.
I want you to punctuate.
This Betrayer almost always issaying, especially right on the
(18:02):
heels of it.
Let me say this Tell me what Ineed to do, tell me what I would
approve to you that I'm goingto be faithful, you know.
Tell me what do you need fromme?
That is, you know, and itsounds great.
It sounds like you're reallyinvested.
But a helpful way to look atthis is to turn to the betrayer
and ask them the real questions,which is what do you need to do
(18:27):
to fix the part of you thatcould step outside the boundary
of this relationship and engagein these behaviors?
Right, yeah, right.
What do you need to do toaddress the part of you that
ignored me and had zerocompassion for me and my
(18:50):
feelings?
So, because the the import, Iknow these are tough ones, right
, but it's important that we'renot going to put all the onus on
the person who's been betrayedto come up with the answers,
right, and I just think that islike a very powerful way to
frame it.
And the people who arebetrayers that are willing to
(19:11):
dig into finding the answers tothose questions, they have a lot
of hope in how they're going tobe able to navigate their way
to what the next from of thisrelationship is going to look
like.
Right, and I say it all thetime, I'm going to say it all
the time Trust is lost in gainedand droplets.
This takes time, or get thatput on a t-shirt.
(19:32):
That's what we should do.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Because that is true?
That is true Because we have,like the spilling the thera tea,
the tea droplets on our logothere, the tea droplets yeah, I
don't know, maybe we work thatinto.
We're going to add that to themerch line.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah, exactly, and we will definitely link our
previous episode on a fair tothis at the bottom of the show
notes so you can easily track itto that as well.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
A tube banger, if you will.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, and also on our website.
We have all of the books thatwe've spoken about, and also in
the previous episodes aboutaffairs, on our website as well.
So those are the names.
Yay, we have an answer.
Yay, okay, it's from Andrea inMonroe, louisiana.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Hi Andrea.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
My son is in the third grade and has been a
victim of bullying this year.
His self-esteem has visiblychanged and he dreads going to
school.
I hate this for him and he'salways like school.
I've addressed the teachers andschool staff to let them know
what is going on, but he stillcomes home upset most days.
How do I help him see how greatof a kiddo he is and to help
(20:41):
him know that the things thesebullies say are not true?
Any advice, mm-hmm?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yes, I do so one of.
The longer I do EMDR, the moreI see connective tissue between
things that are targets forpeople not to go too much into
like how to do EMDR We've talkedabout it before.
But and bullying pops up overand over again, right, and I
(21:07):
can't tell you, even when peoplearen't choosing the target of
bullying, they might be choosingsomething else in their
childhood.
Once we start the bilateralstimulation and I stop it to
check in, they've gone to abullying incident.
So I take this really, reallyseriously because I do think
it's incredibly impactful in thedevelopment of kids.
(21:28):
Bullying is tough when you're anadult, but when you're a child
and your brain is still formingand you're trying to make sense
of it, it's really impactful.
So I mean I would continue totalk to the teachers and have
meetings with the teachers toask her to give you a little bit
of you know, fill in thepicture of what's happening with
these bullying behaviors sothat you can get a better sense
(21:50):
of it.
Because his self report,although I'm sure has some
accuracy, is probably missingsome of what's going on that
another adult might be able tolike offer you.
But the other thing is thereare therapists who are EMDR
trained for kids, and I reallysuggest getting your kiddo in to
(22:13):
see somebody like that becauseit will help him start to create
an adaptive story around thisongoing trauma right and help
change his self limiting beliefsso that it will just arm him
with some additional resiliencyaround it.
So I would look at doingsomething like that.
(22:35):
I agree, that's all I can sayyeah, yeah, I definitely agree.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I think you've given her some great advice.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, it's a rough one, that's, it's hard.
I mean even just.
I actually had a client earliertoday who was talking about
just a kiddo that had been endedup switching schools, that had
been really, really bullying oneof her kiddos and as moms, we
both agree that you just want togo for the jugular, right yeah?
(23:05):
Yeah, I mean, you feel sodefensive of your child and we
know, you know, from aperspective like of from an
outside perspective, you knowthat something's going on with
the bullier, right?
Yeah, absolutely, and I canhave empathy around that.
But, oh my gosh, as a parent,it is just heartbreaking.
(23:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Hang in there.
Yeah, hang in there, all right.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please leave us a
review on Apple podcasts.
This will help us move up thechart and be more accessible to
new listeners.
You can also follow us onInstagram and Facebook.
We will drop tips andinformation about upcoming
episodes.
If you have a question for usand answered segment, email us
(23:53):
at.
Ask us at spilling the therapydot com.
Don't forget to check out ourwebsite, spilling the therapy
dot com, where we'll continue toadd resources and information
there as well.
I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
We are your hosts, kathy DanMoore and Jess Lip.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
And join us next time we are going to be discussing
the difference between shame andguilt.
We'll be breaking it down onesip at a time.
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