December 1, 2023 • 27 mins
Forgiveness is not an overnight process. It is a complex journey that requires identifying the source of your hurt and acknowledging your feelings. We delve into the intriguing concept of unconditional forgiveness and how it can lead to personal growth and the capability to love again. We also provide an introduction to the 'reach method' for forgiveness, a strategy that makes the journey towards forgiveness more manageable and fruitful.
Owning up to our mistakes and seeking forgiveness is a pivotal part of this process. This involves understanding the impact of our actions on others and seeking forgiveness without justifications. Self-forgiveness is a pillar in this journey as well. Join us as we discuss the importance of compassion, empathy, and respect in the process of forgiveness.
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DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not replace the advice you may be receiving from a licensed therapist.This podcast and website represents the opinions of KathyDan Moore, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Grief Coach Jess Lowe, and their guests to the show and website. The content here should not be taken as medical advice.
The content here is for informational purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions.Views and opinions expressed in the podcast and website are our own. While we make every effort to ensure that the information we are sharing is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Spilling the Therity with
Therapist Kathy Danmore andGrief Coach Jesslowe.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey, kathy Dan, hello , hello.
This is our last one remote.
Our next one is in person.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I know I am too Coming the days down.
Yay, Marking my calendar.
I know you ready for.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thanksgiving I am so today's my brother's birthday,
but we're celebrating oh yay,we're celebrating his birthday
tomorrow at Thanksgiving, andthen my little sister turned 16
on 29th, so we're also likedoing her birthday party and
Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So it should be a really good time.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I'm really excited for it.
Awesome Been trying to likemake sure I have all these
things I have to make tomorrowmorning, my homemade rolls
everybody loves.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I gotta like you know time it all just right the
timing is part of the likehardest thing I was thinking
when I got home today.
I'm going to like print outeverything that I'm making.
I think, kevin, my mom isbringing like a bunch of it,
yeah, but it's like getting allthe timing right so everything's
ready at the right moment.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, it's the right moment, and like the weather
here is so bad it's so wet,rainy and cold, and I have to
make my rolls tomorrow, so I'mprobably going to have to, like
heat my dryer up and then, likeput them in there to help them
rise.
Oh my God, they're not going torise.
On the count, like they're not.
It's, it's that it's thatdreary and miserable, so I'm
(01:24):
just going to be prepared tojust shove them in the dryer,
you know.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
That's pretty funny.
I never would have thought ofthat.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, it's perfect Because you can't put them in
the oven because they'll bakeyeah.
So he'd, he'd have your dryerfor a couple of minutes and then
you can set them in there andit just like helps you out?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Do you eat at your?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
house or you eat.
No, my brother is hosting thisyear.
Generally my mom posts, but hewanted to host this year, so he
is the host.
He's making a ham and somesides, but my mom and I we don't
play when it comes toThanksgiving.
This is our like, this is ourSuper Bowl.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
This is our Super Bowl.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
This is the favorite, our favorite day of the year.
Like we love the food and thefamily, so we're bringing.
We're bringing it Okay.
So he didn't really have tomake anything and we'd still
have enough for Thanksgiving.
Yeah, because we want all ofthe things.
We want a little bit ofeverything.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, I feel that way .
Yeah, that's our jam.
I was like I think you probablyhave enough and I'm like I
don't, but I like this and Ilike that, so I'm making.
And then I had the list fullydone and Lily's home from
college and she was like, well,but you didn't say cream cheese
crecent rolls, and I was like Idon't know that anybody eats
those.
And she goes I do.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I do.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
That's us, my brother's, like.
Well, we only have like 10people, I think, total that are
going to be there and we'reprobably cooking enough for like
60.
Yeah, and it's like, but wewant this dip, but we also want
that dip and we want this.
So we're just going to do it.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah Well, I remember the day my mom made the cream
cheese crecent rolls and it waslike the only thing my kids
would really eat, you know,during Thanksgiving.
So I think it's somewhat thatshe likes it.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
It's sentimental, it's nostalgic yeah.
That's cool, though, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So it'll be good.
My mom's bringing the birds, soI don't even so is my mama.
Yeah, I was like all right,she's bringing the birds, she's
bringing, she's bringing a lotof it, and then Doug's making a
ham.
We have all six kids, plus thetwo fiance's, so, and my mom and
Gary, so we have 12.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, yeah, there's good.
There's things that like I'mlike they're staple items, yeah.
Like if my mom's always madethem, mom, I was like mom's
making that, like, okay, this isnot the day to try a new recipe
on something.
Yeah, if you've never made itbefore, bring a new recipe.
But like, don't try to switchup my turkey.
Okay, don't try to switch upthem devil eggs.
(03:50):
Like they need to all be theexact same, because what happens
if it's gross, then you're outthat item.
Okay, we're serious, I rememberabout our day.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay, well, I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, and it will be hard for me to forgive you which
is what we're talking abouttoday if you mess up my turkey.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Exactly leading right into today's, which today's is
lighter than normal.
Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, sothat's good Short sweet, yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
So today we're talking about forgiveness, and I
wanna start it off with a quotefrom our favorite neighbor, Mr
Rogers.
He says forgiveness is astrange thing.
It can sometimes be easier toforgive our enemies than our
friends.
It can be hardest of all toforgive people we love, and I
feel that deeply.
(04:40):
It is hard, you know.
Yeah, we have so much moreexpectation of the people that
we have.
They're all not higher standards.
Sure, you know, forgivenessmeans different things to
different people, but in generalit involves the intentional
decision to let go of resentmentand anger.
So the act that hurt oroffended you might always be
(05:00):
with you, but working onforgiveness can lessen that
act's grip on you.
It can help free you from thecontrol of the person who harmed
you, and sometimes forgivenessmight even lead to the feelings
of understanding, empathy andcompassion for the person that
did hurt you, and I don't thinka lot of people, like you know,
(05:21):
get that.
But forgiveness doesn't meanforgetting or excusing the harm
that was done to you.
It also doesn't necessarilymean making up with the person
who caused the harm, and that'sa thing which we're going to
discuss a little bit later.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That's a big thing.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, you know, forgiveness brings a kind of
peace that allows you to focuson yourself and helps you go on
with life.
And for me personally, I feellike you forgive for yourself
first and foremost, so that youcan feel that anxiety that lifts
off your heart.
I know that when I forgivesomeone who's wrong me, it makes
me feel better.
You know, mentally, emotionally, physically, and we'll get into
(05:59):
that as well.
Yeah, too.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So the favorite quote that I'm going to say, that I
use all the time in therapy withpeople who are struggling and
they say I just and this happensa lot I don't know how to
forgive this person, I don'tknow how.
You know I do a fair recovery.
So I talk about forgiveness allthe time and I say not forget.
So the quote is not forgivingsomeone is like drinking poison
and expecting the other personto die.
(06:24):
So, and I say it, a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Wow, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
The reality is that not everyone who hurt you cares
right.
So I heard a clip with SandraBullock was talking about it the
other day.
I think it was on the what'sher name, drew Barrymore show.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, I saw that.
Did you see that?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, I love them both.
Yeah, I saw it.
Yeah, so she said that sheheard from somebody that
forgiveness really lets you offthe hook.
So, why do we want to carryaround anger, hurt, resentment
and that's just darkening thelight of our life?
Right yeah, for someone whodoesn't care that they hurt you.
So the goal in that situationis how are we going to let it go
(07:08):
?
That's really of course,forgiveness when somebody is
genuinely and actionablyapologetic.
That's a different thing thanwhat we're talking about when
somebody just doesn't care.
Yeah.
So it's really a complexprocess of change.
It requires sustained effortand commitment.
But the beautiful part aboutforgiveness is it really lets
(07:29):
you love again.
Yeah, so I forgive you.
Those can be tough words to sayto somebody that's hurt you
Because you've experienced pain,and when we experience pain, it
feels really unfair.
So often we want to unload thepain, but we don't have anywhere
to put it Yep, and then we endup carrying the burden with us,
(07:51):
right?
Yeah?
So there's a bunch of differentways that they say to find
forgiveness, and steps orwhatever.
So why don't you delineate forus what some of the common ones
are?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So identify your hurt .
Start by pinpointing the sourceof your hurt, like was it a
failure, I missed opportunity?
Did someone break your heart?
Was someone mean to you?
Get to the root of what'scausing that pain.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Sometimes that takes work right.
It does Actually upset about.
It's really so much deeper,mm-hmm yeah, and sometimes it's
that it's hit on an old wound.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Oh yeah.
You know, yeah, and then alsolike your hurtful emotions, like
what are you feeling?
Is it sad?
Are you angry?
Are you feeling loneliness?
What is you know?
Is it something deeper?
Are you disgusted by somebody?
Jealous Hate?
You know you're experiencinghate.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
So in order to get rid of that hurt, you need to
recognize what your feelings aretowards that that's why I tell
everybody they need a feelingspillow, and because we're not
very good at identifying whatwe're actually feeling.
And I have.
I just ordered, actually, fivenew pillows for each office of
the practice, because I wantevery clinician to be able to
(09:12):
have the pillow, because clientslook at me like like I'm
treating them as if they're in,you know, kindergarten and I'm
like, no, I, it's powerful toreally connect to what is it
that you're actually feeling,acknowledging that so that
you're operating around whatyou're trying to like.
What is going on?
(09:33):
That is making it difficult toforget.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Right, right.
And then you know also forgiveyourself and let go.
You got to it starts with N,you right.
So when you're not the reasonthat some, you weren't the
reason that someone hurt youspecifically, it's not your
fault.
So you need to forgive yourselffirst before you have the
capacity to forgive that otherperson.
(09:56):
So only then, when you're ableto let go of the negative
emotions associated with theheart that someone calls, you
can let go.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, don't be like we're hard on ourselves.
We say like I'm probably beingoversensitive or I'm probably,
you know, like make space forthe fact that you're human and
you're having a reaction, andthat's okay.
Let's get to what that reactionis, yeah, yeah, and breathing
in compassion, right, so letthat compassion flow.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
One breath at a time.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So I always like the 7-11 breathing in for seven, out
for 11.
We know that that helps to likeright size your central nervous
system.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, you know.
So Regulate those emotions.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Regulate those emotions.
You need to emphasize, withthat person's motivations, their
emotions, their circumstances,what's going on, right?
So challenge yourself to putyourself in the other person's
shoes and view the situationfrom their perspective.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Imagine that you're on a pretend debate team and
you've been tasked with arguingtheir side.
Yeah, does that help give yousome additional perspective?
Yeah, it does Right, and we canforgive unconditionally.
That's a toughie, so passionand empathy materializes into
(11:17):
action when you forget about theproblem and move on to the
solution of forgiveness.
Yeah, so give your forgivenessto that person without strings
attached, right.
Yeah, like we don't have toforget that.
I really don't like it sticksin my crawl when people say like
I forgive you, but I'll neverforget it, forget it, don't butt
(11:37):
it.
I mean yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Silently in your mind , not forget it.
Right, you don't have to beself or have those boundaries,
but if you're going to forgivesomebody, forgive them, and let
that go.
Don't bring that back up inanother thing, but be grateful
too, forgiving is one of themost powerful ways to empower
personal growth.
(12:00):
So both for the forgiver and forthe forgiven, when you let go
of the burden of the hurt andall the negative energy of the
emotions associated with thathurt, you're given the peace and
freedom to live as a betterversion of yourself, and that's
really important.
You empower to transfer thatpositive energy to another
person and people around you sothat they can become better
(12:20):
versions of themselves too.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, and it lets you love again, right.
To forgiveness lets you loveagain.
Once you forgive, your heart isfull of love.
I know how hokey that sounds,but shit, it's true.
And so you're stronger.
Because you love yourself,you're loving others.
So, no matter the magnitude oftheir shortcomings or
(12:43):
transgressions, that you're ableto get over it and sometimes,
you know, relate.
Like we were saying earlier,relationships don't have to
continue.
I have had people throughout mylife that I no longer have a
relationship with, but in myheart I've forgiven what's right
, right, absolutely.
(13:05):
I feel freer because of it, soyeah, For sure.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
So another quick little method.
It's called the reach method,so we'll do these real quick.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
But like recall.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
you recall the hurt, so you know.
Identify it, but don't pushaside your feelings.
The E is empathize, soempathize with the event.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I love a good acronym , by the way, me too.
It's so easy to help you.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, a is altruistic gift, so give the altruistic
gift of forgiveness.
Think about a time when youwere rude or harsh and recognize
that everybody has shortcomings.
Nobody's perfect.
I know, that we sound perfect.
No, no.
The C is commit, so make adecision to forgive.
(13:47):
You can write a letter that youdon't send to help yourself
make the commitment.
And then the H is hold, so holdon to forgiveness.
Memories of the transgressionor event won't change, but how
you react to those feelings will.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Letting go of grudges andbitterness can make a way for
improved health and peace ofmind.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Right, we're looking at healthier relationships like
this is why you forget peoplefor yourself.
Yeah, this is what you're doingfor yourself when you forget
others.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
It's taking away your anxiety and your stress.
You know it does help diminishfeelings of depression.
It lowers your blood pressure,increases your immune system,
heart healthy, right, and itdoes improve your self-esteem.
Yeah, it really does Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And you're like how does that do all that?
Well, how does not forgivingsomebody make you feel?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Think about how you're feeling, make you feel
like total shit.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Oh shit, yeah.
So why not try it and see ifyou like it?
Yeah, but does forgivenessguarantee reconciliation?
No, no, no.
If the hurtful event involvessomeone whose relationship you
value, forgiveness may lead tothat, but it's not always the
case.
Reconciliation might beimpossible if the offender has
(15:06):
died or is unwilling tocommunicate with you.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
One of the things that can be really hard for
people is when somebody dies andyou do not, and they don't have
that closure of being able toRight.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Also, though, if they're unwilling to communicate
with you, which is sofrustrating to the person that's
wanting to resolve this inother cases.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
That's when you're trying and you're like, yeah, no
, no, I have forgiven you, let'sget together, I'm ready for us
to just move past this.
And they just don't do it.
And you're like, yeah, oh shit.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, You're like you're ready to forgive them,
but they might not be ready toforgive you for whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Or sometimes they just have a lot of shame around
it.
And you might have forgiventhem and they just feel a lot of
shame and can't continue therelationship on their end.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Absolutely, and in other cases reconciliation might
not be appropriate If there'sabuse, things like that.
But still, forgiveness ispossible.
Even if it's not, we still aregoing to have those boundaries.
Guys Like you've got to dowhat's best for you, and just
because you're forgivingsomebody for something doesn't
mean that your boundaries go outthe window.
(16:13):
Yeah Right, there are somethings that we may feel are
unforgivable acts Again, theabuse and things like that.
So that is the tough part.
So this is when I truly believethat forgiving someone of such
an act is definitely for me andnot for them, not saying that it
doesn't make it less true orthat I'm not really forgiving
that person, but I feel likesometimes we have to forgive
(16:36):
others to protect ourselvesmentally and emotionally.
That doesn't mean that you getback into that relationship with
that person or whatever, butdoing it for yourself.
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I feel like it's really hard, but I feel like
it's really rewarding.
And this is where thedialectics comes in.
It doesn't mean the otherperson feels sorry.
It doesn't mean the otherperson has changed.
It doesn't mean the otherperson didn't do something
that's been pretty terrible orhorrific to you.
I can have an understandingthat they're going through
(17:12):
something and I want nothing todo with them because they do not
bring positivity into my life.
But I can find a space toforgive that.
They're human and I try tooperate around.
This is so, pollyanna, but Itry to operate around the idea
that everybody is doing the bestthey can and sometimes it's
(17:34):
just not fucking good enough forme to keep them in my life.
But the forgiveness comes fromthe recognition that they were
doing the best they can and itwasn't good enough.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
But it was the best they could and trying to hold
that in my mind is kind of how Ioperate around those tougher
situations.
Yeah, it's hard.
I mean I feel like a lot oftherapy goes in, is involved.
Sometimes you could be.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I have been in a lot of therapy.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
You know, yeah, I mean that helps you see things
in a different way.
For instance, my birth father.
For years like I couldn'tforgive him for what he did to
me and my siblings, until I wasin therapy and not saying the
choices he made were like, oh,that's cool, that's fine, you
know, whatever, they're stillreally shitty choices that you
(18:22):
made.
Yeah, but I have to forgive youso that I can have peace within
myself.
Yeah, you know I might notunderstand what you were doing
or why you were doing it, butyou have that I had the empathy
that obviously something wasgoing on in your life that even
I, you know I might not be ableto understand, but yeah doesn't
(18:42):
mean I can't forgive that person, but that also doesn't mean
that I don't still have theboundaries.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
And you know, getting another person to change is not
the point of forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, so what?
What is the person you'reforgiving doesn't change.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, it's not about that right, we don't have any
control.
It's really about focusing onwhat you can control in the here
and now.
So, forgiveness is more abouthow it can change your life,
like how it brings us peace,happiness, emotional stability.
You know, those are the thingsthat happen for me when I feel
(19:14):
like and it's a process, right,so, but it really.
This is the thing it takes.
A forgiveness can take away thepower that other person
continues to have in your life.
I have a plan I was working withrecently that was like very,
very afraid of running intosomebody in the community that
had had an affair with herhusband.
(19:35):
Oh wow, I know, and, and I waslike you get to take up space
right, like you get.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You're living right.
You're living rent free intheir mind.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
So right like you get and stop letting this person
live rent free in your mind.
Yes, you deserve to take upspace and when we really start
to get to a point where you go,well, something's going on with
that other person, as mad as youare at that person, and you can
find a way to forgive, you getto not be worried about running
(20:08):
into them in publics or wherever.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
It's a freedom that that we getto find when we truly get to
the space of being able toforgive.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
And listen that this, all all these little pithy
quotes and all these things aresaying make it.
It's not easy, it's it's hard.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think it's hard and sometimes it takes a long time
to forgive somebody Right.
I mean it can take years.
It took me years, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
And, but you do.
You have to do what's best foryou, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
But what if you're the one that needs forgiveness?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Ouch, ouch.
So the process of selfforgiveness can be a painful
challenge.
Oh, it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
It's very valuable.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
The key to this process is owning up to one's
mistakes, understanding why theyoccurred and helping to rectify
that situation.
Mm, hmm, the first step is tohonestly assess and acknowledge
the wrongs you've done and howthey've affected others.
Avoid judging yourself tooharshly.
I feel like we have a hard time, you know, forgiving ourselves
for things, not even if we'vedone something to somebody else,
(21:19):
but the way we've treatedourselves Like give, to forgive
yourself for treating yourselflike shit, and this is one of
the things that I feel liketherapy is really powerful.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I see it happen when I have clients come in and tell
me things that they feel awfulabout Mm, hmm, and I know the
burden that was lifted for mewhen I said the things that I
knew I needed forgiveness forout loud to my therapist.
Yeah, that really moved theneedle on my healing Right, and
(21:51):
I see it happen for my clientstoo.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Right?
Yep, absolutely.
If you're truly sorry forsomething you've said or done or
want forgiveness, considerreaching out to those that
you've harmed.
Speak of you know how yourregret and how sorry you are.
Ask for forgiveness withoutmaking excuses.
I'm sorry, but you know I'mjust going through a hard time.
No, you're sorry because youdid this to that person.
(22:15):
You can't force someone toforgive you, though.
Again, others need to move totheir forgiveness in their own
time.
So remember, forgiveness is aprocess.
Whatever happens, commit totreating others with compassion,
empathy and respect.
Amen, that's really important,yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
And then I also wanted to say too, like when we
were talking about like peoplethat have been like in abusive
situations.
You can forgive somebodywithout actually having to like
speak with that person.
You can forgive them withinyourself.
So don't feel like, oh, youhave to be around somebody.
If you've been in the situation, if you want to forgive that
person, you can just forgivethem in your soul too.
(22:56):
You know what I mean.
That's 100% space.
So we're not telling people likego jump back into that and like
you know.
So I just want to put thatlittle no right, this is for
yourself.
So I'm just putting that inthere.
Good footnote, good footnote.
I'll add a little footnote inthere, Because if you're like me
and you're literal, sometimesyou're gonna be like now I have
(23:17):
to call my abuser, yeah, so letus know.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
So just let the breaks on that.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, you can forgive somebody without actually
having to have that conversationwith them.
If it's somebody in your familythat you want to continue
seeing, then, yeah, have thatconversation with them, or a
friend, things like that.
So, yeah, I like it All right.
Well, we do have an answeranswered from James and Alberta.
Oh, that's so far.
Frank, really cold right now.
(23:43):
So James said that he hasstruggled with confidence his
whole life.
He recently passed the bar exam.
Congratulations, james.
So you're smart.
Yes, and we'll be continuing,starting at a law firm in
January.
He's nervous, as many lawyersare confident and command the
room in the courtroom.
I know that he said.
(24:04):
I know how to do my job, I'mjust afraid I lack the
confidence to get the job done.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah, james, you're talking about imposter syndrome.
Yeah, and you wouldn't pass thebar if you weren't competent to
do it.
And I would also say that wealways look at other people and
think they have got their shittogether and they know what
they're doing.
I can't tell you how often,when I started as a baby
therapist, I was like I have nofucking idea what I'm doing.
(24:34):
Yeah, and so, and everybodystarts somewhere.
Everybody has a first day inthe courtroom.
One thing I've done with somepeople recently I know we always
talk about EMDR, but I havedone some EMDR with people
around anticipatory anxiety andmanaging like, what are they
afraid of happening?
Yeah, how do they want torewrite that script so they can
(24:55):
go into it with confidence.
But we always look at otherpeople and think, oh wow, they
don't feel nervous, they seemlike they're doing, and I'm
telling you that's not true, butthat's the story that we've
made up in our head about otherpeople being more competent than
we are.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
And then I also want to say a lot of your work is not
in the courtroom.
So if you're prepared for yourcase, things like that, if
you're having more anxieties ofgetting up and speaking from
these other people, then maybedo like a public speaking course
.
They have those all the time.
You can do a college, communitycollege, things like that.
So that might be somethingthat'll help your confidence in
(25:37):
the courtroom.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
And then more of a logistical thing is preparation.
I feel like the more prepared Iam for things, the more
confident I feel when I'm doingthem.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
So, yeah, absolutely All right.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
This will help us move up thechart and be more accessible to
new listeners.
You can also follow us onInstagram and Facebook, which we
have linked below.
If you have a question for ourAsk and Answer segment, email us
(26:11):
and ask us atspellingthetheritycom.
Don't forget to check out ournew website, which is also
linked below.
We will continue to addresources and information there
as well.
I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
If you will be hearing thisafter Thanksgiving, but we hope
you had a great Thanksgiving.
Yeah, we're your host.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Kathy DeMorrin Jaisalor, and then join us next
time, where you will get to heara peek of an EMDR session.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
So we'll be breaking it down one sip at a time.
Welcome back to Spilling the Therity with
Therapist Kathy Danmore andGrief Coach Jesslowe.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hey, kathy Dan, hello , hello.
This is our last one remote.
Our next one is in person.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I know I am too Coming the days down.
Yay, Marking my calendar.
I know you ready for.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thanksgiving I am so today's my brother's birthday,
but we're celebrating oh yay,we're celebrating his birthday
tomorrow at Thanksgiving, andthen my little sister turned 16
on 29th, so we're also likedoing her birthday party and
Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So it should be a really good time.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I'm really excited for it.
Awesome Been trying to likemake sure I have all these
things I have to make tomorrowmorning, my homemade rolls
everybody loves.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I gotta like you know time it all just right the
timing is part of the likehardest thing I was thinking
when I got home today.
I'm going to like print outeverything that I'm making.
I think, kevin, my mom isbringing like a bunch of it,
yeah, but it's like getting allthe timing right so everything's
ready at the right moment.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, it's the right moment, and like the weather
here is so bad it's so wet,rainy and cold, and I have to
make my rolls tomorrow, so I'mprobably going to have to, like
heat my dryer up and then, likeput them in there to help them
rise.
Oh my God, they're not going torise.
On the count, like they're not.
It's, it's that it's thatdreary and miserable, so I'm
(01:24):
just going to be prepared tojust shove them in the dryer,
you know.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
That's pretty funny.
I never would have thought ofthat.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, it's perfect Because you can't put them in
the oven because they'll bakeyeah.
So he'd, he'd have your dryerfor a couple of minutes and then
you can set them in there andit just like helps you out?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Do you eat at your?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
house or you eat.
No, my brother is hosting thisyear.
Generally my mom posts, but hewanted to host this year, so he
is the host.
He's making a ham and somesides, but my mom and I we don't
play when it comes toThanksgiving.
This is our like, this is ourSuper Bowl.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
This is our Super Bowl.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
This is the favorite, our favorite day of the year.
Like we love the food and thefamily, so we're bringing.
We're bringing it Okay.
So he didn't really have tomake anything and we'd still
have enough for Thanksgiving.
Yeah, because we want all ofthe things.
We want a little bit ofeverything.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, I feel that way .
Yeah, that's our jam.
I was like I think you probablyhave enough and I'm like I
don't, but I like this and Ilike that, so I'm making.
And then I had the list fullydone and Lily's home from
college and she was like, well,but you didn't say cream cheese
crecent rolls, and I was like Idon't know that anybody eats
those.
And she goes I do.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I do.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
That's us, my brother's, like.
Well, we only have like 10people, I think, total that are
going to be there and we'reprobably cooking enough for like
60.
Yeah, and it's like, but wewant this dip, but we also want
that dip and we want this.
So we're just going to do it.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah Well, I remember the day my mom made the cream
cheese crecent rolls and it waslike the only thing my kids
would really eat, you know,during Thanksgiving.
So I think it's somewhat thatshe likes it.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
It's sentimental, it's nostalgic yeah.
That's cool, though, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So it'll be good.
My mom's bringing the birds, soI don't even so is my mama.
Yeah, I was like all right,she's bringing the birds, she's
bringing, she's bringing a lotof it, and then Doug's making a
ham.
We have all six kids, plus thetwo fiance's, so, and my mom and
Gary, so we have 12.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, yeah, there's good.
There's things that like I'mlike they're staple items, yeah.
Like if my mom's always madethem, mom, I was like mom's
making that, like, okay, this isnot the day to try a new recipe
on something.
Yeah, if you've never made itbefore, bring a new recipe.
But like, don't try to switchup my turkey.
Okay, don't try to switch upthem devil eggs.
(03:50):
Like they need to all be theexact same, because what happens
if it's gross, then you're outthat item.
Okay, we're serious, I rememberabout our day.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay, well, I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, and it will be hard for me to forgive you which
is what we're talking abouttoday if you mess up my turkey.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Exactly leading right into today's, which today's is
lighter than normal.
Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, sothat's good Short sweet, yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
So today we're talking about forgiveness, and I
wanna start it off with a quotefrom our favorite neighbor, Mr
Rogers.
He says forgiveness is astrange thing.
It can sometimes be easier toforgive our enemies than our
friends.
It can be hardest of all toforgive people we love, and I
feel that deeply.
(04:40):
It is hard, you know.
Yeah, we have so much moreexpectation of the people that
we have.
They're all not higher standards.
Sure, you know, forgivenessmeans different things to
different people, but in generalit involves the intentional
decision to let go of resentmentand anger.
So the act that hurt oroffended you might always be
(05:00):
with you, but working onforgiveness can lessen that
act's grip on you.
It can help free you from thecontrol of the person who harmed
you, and sometimes forgivenessmight even lead to the feelings
of understanding, empathy andcompassion for the person that
did hurt you, and I don't thinka lot of people, like you know,
(05:21):
get that.
But forgiveness doesn't meanforgetting or excusing the harm
that was done to you.
It also doesn't necessarilymean making up with the person
who caused the harm, and that'sa thing which we're going to
discuss a little bit later.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That's a big thing.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, you know, forgiveness brings a kind of
peace that allows you to focuson yourself and helps you go on
with life.
And for me personally, I feellike you forgive for yourself
first and foremost, so that youcan feel that anxiety that lifts
off your heart.
I know that when I forgivesomeone who's wrong me, it makes
me feel better.
You know, mentally, emotionally, physically, and we'll get into
(05:59):
that as well.
Yeah, too.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So the favorite quote that I'm going to say, that I
use all the time in therapy withpeople who are struggling and
they say I just and this happensa lot I don't know how to
forgive this person, I don'tknow how.
You know I do a fair recovery.
So I talk about forgiveness allthe time and I say not forget.
So the quote is not forgivingsomeone is like drinking poison
and expecting the other personto die.
(06:24):
So, and I say it, a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Wow, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
The reality is that not everyone who hurt you cares
right.
So I heard a clip with SandraBullock was talking about it the
other day.
I think it was on the what'sher name, drew Barrymore show.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, I saw that.
Did you see that?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, I love them both.
Yeah, I saw it.
Yeah, so she said that sheheard from somebody that
forgiveness really lets you offthe hook.
So, why do we want to carryaround anger, hurt, resentment
and that's just darkening thelight of our life?
Right yeah, for someone whodoesn't care that they hurt you.
So the goal in that situationis how are we going to let it go
(07:08):
?
That's really of course,forgiveness when somebody is
genuinely and actionablyapologetic.
That's a different thing thanwhat we're talking about when
somebody just doesn't care.
Yeah.
So it's really a complexprocess of change.
It requires sustained effortand commitment.
But the beautiful part aboutforgiveness is it really lets
(07:29):
you love again.
Yeah, so I forgive you.
Those can be tough words to sayto somebody that's hurt you
Because you've experienced pain,and when we experience pain, it
feels really unfair.
So often we want to unload thepain, but we don't have anywhere
to put it Yep, and then we endup carrying the burden with us,
(07:51):
right?
Yeah?
So there's a bunch of differentways that they say to find
forgiveness, and steps orwhatever.
So why don't you delineate forus what some of the common ones
are?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So identify your hurt .
Start by pinpointing the sourceof your hurt, like was it a
failure, I missed opportunity?
Did someone break your heart?
Was someone mean to you?
Get to the root of what'scausing that pain.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Sometimes that takes work right.
It does Actually upset about.
It's really so much deeper,mm-hmm yeah, and sometimes it's
that it's hit on an old wound.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Oh yeah.
You know, yeah, and then alsolike your hurtful emotions, like
what are you feeling?
Is it sad?
Are you angry?
Are you feeling loneliness?
What is you know?
Is it something deeper?
Are you disgusted by somebody?
Jealous Hate?
You know you're experiencinghate.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
So in order to get rid of that hurt, you need to
recognize what your feelings aretowards that that's why I tell
everybody they need a feelingspillow, and because we're not
very good at identifying whatwe're actually feeling.
And I have.
I just ordered, actually, fivenew pillows for each office of
the practice, because I wantevery clinician to be able to
(09:12):
have the pillow, because clientslook at me like like I'm
treating them as if they're in,you know, kindergarten and I'm
like, no, I, it's powerful toreally connect to what is it
that you're actually feeling,acknowledging that so that
you're operating around whatyou're trying to like.
What is going on?
(09:33):
That is making it difficult toforget.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Right, right.
And then you know also forgiveyourself and let go.
You got to it starts with N,you right.
So when you're not the reasonthat some, you weren't the
reason that someone hurt youspecifically, it's not your
fault.
So you need to forgive yourselffirst before you have the
capacity to forgive that otherperson.
(09:56):
So only then, when you're ableto let go of the negative
emotions associated with theheart that someone calls, you
can let go.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, don't be like we're hard on ourselves.
We say like I'm probably beingoversensitive or I'm probably,
you know, like make space forthe fact that you're human and
you're having a reaction, andthat's okay.
Let's get to what that reactionis, yeah, yeah, and breathing
in compassion, right, so letthat compassion flow.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
One breath at a time.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So I always like the 7-11 breathing in for seven, out
for 11.
We know that that helps to likeright size your central nervous
system.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, you know.
So Regulate those emotions.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Regulate those emotions.
You need to emphasize, withthat person's motivations, their
emotions, their circumstances,what's going on, right?
So challenge yourself to putyourself in the other person's
shoes and view the situationfrom their perspective.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Imagine that you're on a pretend debate team and
you've been tasked with arguingtheir side.
Yeah, does that help give yousome additional perspective?
Yeah, it does Right, and we canforgive unconditionally.
That's a toughie, so passionand empathy materializes into
(11:17):
action when you forget about theproblem and move on to the
solution of forgiveness.
Yeah, so give your forgivenessto that person without strings
attached, right.
Yeah, like we don't have toforget that.
I really don't like it sticksin my crawl when people say like
I forgive you, but I'll neverforget it, forget it, don't butt
(11:37):
it.
I mean yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Silently in your mind , not forget it.
Right, you don't have to beself or have those boundaries,
but if you're going to forgivesomebody, forgive them, and let
that go.
Don't bring that back up inanother thing, but be grateful
too, forgiving is one of themost powerful ways to empower
personal growth.
(12:00):
So both for the forgiver and forthe forgiven, when you let go
of the burden of the hurt andall the negative energy of the
emotions associated with thathurt, you're given the peace and
freedom to live as a betterversion of yourself, and that's
really important.
You empower to transfer thatpositive energy to another
person and people around you sothat they can become better
(12:20):
versions of themselves too.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, and it lets you love again, right.
To forgiveness lets you loveagain.
Once you forgive, your heart isfull of love.
I know how hokey that sounds,but shit, it's true.
And so you're stronger.
Because you love yourself,you're loving others.
So, no matter the magnitude oftheir shortcomings or
(12:43):
transgressions, that you're ableto get over it and sometimes,
you know, relate.
Like we were saying earlier,relationships don't have to
continue.
I have had people throughout mylife that I no longer have a
relationship with, but in myheart I've forgiven what's right
, right, absolutely.
(13:05):
I feel freer because of it, soyeah, For sure.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
So another quick little method.
It's called the reach method,so we'll do these real quick.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
But like recall.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
you recall the hurt, so you know.
Identify it, but don't pushaside your feelings.
The E is empathize, soempathize with the event.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I love a good acronym , by the way, me too.
It's so easy to help you.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, a is altruistic gift, so give the altruistic
gift of forgiveness.
Think about a time when youwere rude or harsh and recognize
that everybody has shortcomings.
Nobody's perfect.
I know, that we sound perfect.
No, no.
The C is commit, so make adecision to forgive.
(13:47):
You can write a letter that youdon't send to help yourself
make the commitment.
And then the H is hold, so holdon to forgiveness.
Memories of the transgressionor event won't change, but how
you react to those feelings will.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Letting go of grudges andbitterness can make a way for
improved health and peace ofmind.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Right, we're looking at healthier relationships like
this is why you forget peoplefor yourself.
Yeah, this is what you're doingfor yourself when you forget
others.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
It's taking away your anxiety and your stress.
You know it does help diminishfeelings of depression.
It lowers your blood pressure,increases your immune system,
heart healthy, right, and itdoes improve your self-esteem.
Yeah, it really does Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And you're like how does that do all that?
Well, how does not forgivingsomebody make you feel?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Think about how you're feeling, make you feel
like total shit.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Oh shit, yeah.
So why not try it and see ifyou like it?
Yeah, but does forgivenessguarantee reconciliation?
No, no, no.
If the hurtful event involvessomeone whose relationship you
value, forgiveness may lead tothat, but it's not always the
case.
Reconciliation might beimpossible if the offender has
(15:06):
died or is unwilling tocommunicate with you.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
One of the things that can be really hard for
people is when somebody dies andyou do not, and they don't have
that closure of being able toRight.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Also, though, if they're unwilling to communicate
with you, which is sofrustrating to the person that's
wanting to resolve this inother cases.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
That's when you're trying and you're like, yeah, no
, no, I have forgiven you, let'sget together, I'm ready for us
to just move past this.
And they just don't do it.
And you're like, yeah, oh shit.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, You're like you're ready to forgive them,
but they might not be ready toforgive you for whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Or sometimes they just have a lot of shame around
it.
And you might have forgiventhem and they just feel a lot of
shame and can't continue therelationship on their end.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Absolutely, and in other cases reconciliation might
not be appropriate If there'sabuse, things like that.
But still, forgiveness ispossible.
Even if it's not, we still aregoing to have those boundaries.
Guys Like you've got to dowhat's best for you, and just
because you're forgivingsomebody for something doesn't
mean that your boundaries go outthe window.
(16:13):
Yeah Right, there are somethings that we may feel are
unforgivable acts Again, theabuse and things like that.
So that is the tough part.
So this is when I truly believethat forgiving someone of such
an act is definitely for me andnot for them, not saying that it
doesn't make it less true orthat I'm not really forgiving
that person, but I feel likesometimes we have to forgive
(16:36):
others to protect ourselvesmentally and emotionally.
That doesn't mean that you getback into that relationship with
that person or whatever, butdoing it for yourself.
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I feel like it's really hard, but I feel like
it's really rewarding.
And this is where thedialectics comes in.
It doesn't mean the otherperson feels sorry.
It doesn't mean the otherperson has changed.
It doesn't mean the otherperson didn't do something
that's been pretty terrible orhorrific to you.
I can have an understandingthat they're going through
(17:12):
something and I want nothing todo with them because they do not
bring positivity into my life.
But I can find a space toforgive that.
They're human and I try tooperate around.
This is so, pollyanna, but Itry to operate around the idea
that everybody is doing the bestthey can and sometimes it's
(17:34):
just not fucking good enough forme to keep them in my life.
But the forgiveness comes fromthe recognition that they were
doing the best they can and itwasn't good enough.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
But it was the best they could and trying to hold
that in my mind is kind of how Ioperate around those tougher
situations.
Yeah, it's hard.
I mean I feel like a lot oftherapy goes in, is involved.
Sometimes you could be.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I have been in a lot of therapy.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
You know, yeah, I mean that helps you see things
in a different way.
For instance, my birth father.
For years like I couldn'tforgive him for what he did to
me and my siblings, until I wasin therapy and not saying the
choices he made were like, oh,that's cool, that's fine, you
know, whatever, they're stillreally shitty choices that you
(18:22):
made.
Yeah, but I have to forgive youso that I can have peace within
myself.
Yeah, you know I might notunderstand what you were doing
or why you were doing it, butyou have that I had the empathy
that obviously something wasgoing on in your life that even
I, you know I might not be ableto understand, but yeah doesn't
(18:42):
mean I can't forgive that person, but that also doesn't mean
that I don't still have theboundaries.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
And you know, getting another person to change is not
the point of forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, so what?
What is the person you'reforgiving doesn't change.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, it's not about that right, we don't have any
control.
It's really about focusing onwhat you can control in the here
and now.
So, forgiveness is more abouthow it can change your life,
like how it brings us peace,happiness, emotional stability.
You know, those are the thingsthat happen for me when I feel
(19:14):
like and it's a process, right,so, but it really.
This is the thing it takes.
A forgiveness can take away thepower that other person
continues to have in your life.
I have a plan I was working withrecently that was like very,
very afraid of running intosomebody in the community that
had had an affair with herhusband.
(19:35):
Oh wow, I know, and, and I waslike you get to take up space
right, like you get.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You're living right.
You're living rent free intheir mind.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
So right like you get and stop letting this person
live rent free in your mind.
Yes, you deserve to take upspace and when we really start
to get to a point where you go,well, something's going on with
that other person, as mad as youare at that person, and you can
find a way to forgive, you getto not be worried about running
(20:08):
into them in publics or wherever.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
It's a freedom that that we getto find when we truly get to
the space of being able toforgive.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
And listen that this, all all these little pithy
quotes and all these things aresaying make it.
It's not easy, it's it's hard.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I think it's hard and sometimes it takes a long time
to forgive somebody Right.
I mean it can take years.
It took me years, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
And, but you do.
You have to do what's best foryou, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
But what if you're the one that needs forgiveness?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Ouch, ouch.
So the process of selfforgiveness can be a painful
challenge.
Oh, it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
It's very valuable.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
The key to this process is owning up to one's
mistakes, understanding why theyoccurred and helping to rectify
that situation.
Mm, hmm, the first step is tohonestly assess and acknowledge
the wrongs you've done and howthey've affected others.
Avoid judging yourself tooharshly.
I feel like we have a hard time, you know, forgiving ourselves
for things, not even if we'vedone something to somebody else,
(21:19):
but the way we've treatedourselves Like give, to forgive
yourself for treating yourselflike shit, and this is one of
the things that I feel liketherapy is really powerful.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I see it happen when I have clients come in and tell
me things that they feel awfulabout Mm, hmm, and I know the
burden that was lifted for mewhen I said the things that I
knew I needed forgiveness forout loud to my therapist.
Yeah, that really moved theneedle on my healing Right, and
(21:51):
I see it happen for my clientstoo.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Right?
Yep, absolutely.
If you're truly sorry forsomething you've said or done or
want forgiveness, considerreaching out to those that
you've harmed.
Speak of you know how yourregret and how sorry you are.
Ask for forgiveness withoutmaking excuses.
I'm sorry, but you know I'mjust going through a hard time.
No, you're sorry because youdid this to that person.
(22:15):
You can't force someone toforgive you, though.
Again, others need to move totheir forgiveness in their own
time.
So remember, forgiveness is aprocess.
Whatever happens, commit totreating others with compassion,
empathy and respect.
Amen, that's really important,yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
And then I also wanted to say too, like when we
were talking about like peoplethat have been like in abusive
situations.
You can forgive somebodywithout actually having to like
speak with that person.
You can forgive them withinyourself.
So don't feel like, oh, youhave to be around somebody.
If you've been in the situation, if you want to forgive that
person, you can just forgivethem in your soul too.
(22:56):
You know what I mean.
That's 100% space.
So we're not telling people likego jump back into that and like
you know.
So I just want to put thatlittle no right, this is for
yourself.
So I'm just putting that inthere.
Good footnote, good footnote.
I'll add a little footnote inthere, Because if you're like me
and you're literal, sometimesyou're gonna be like now I have
(23:17):
to call my abuser, yeah, so letus know.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
So just let the breaks on that.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, you can forgive somebody without actually
having to have that conversationwith them.
If it's somebody in your familythat you want to continue
seeing, then, yeah, have thatconversation with them, or a
friend, things like that.
So, yeah, I like it All right.
Well, we do have an answeranswered from James and Alberta.
Oh, that's so far.
Frank, really cold right now.
(23:43):
So James said that he hasstruggled with confidence his
whole life.
He recently passed the bar exam.
Congratulations, james.
So you're smart.
Yes, and we'll be continuing,starting at a law firm in
January.
He's nervous, as many lawyersare confident and command the
room in the courtroom.
I know that he said.
(24:04):
I know how to do my job, I'mjust afraid I lack the
confidence to get the job done.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah, james, you're talking about imposter syndrome.
Yeah, and you wouldn't pass thebar if you weren't competent to
do it.
And I would also say that wealways look at other people and
think they have got their shittogether and they know what
they're doing.
I can't tell you how often,when I started as a baby
therapist, I was like I have nofucking idea what I'm doing.
(24:34):
Yeah, and so, and everybodystarts somewhere.
Everybody has a first day inthe courtroom.
One thing I've done with somepeople recently I know we always
talk about EMDR, but I havedone some EMDR with people
around anticipatory anxiety andmanaging like, what are they
afraid of happening?
Yeah, how do they want torewrite that script so they can
(24:55):
go into it with confidence.
But we always look at otherpeople and think, oh wow, they
don't feel nervous, they seemlike they're doing, and I'm
telling you that's not true, butthat's the story that we've
made up in our head about otherpeople being more competent than
we are.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
And then I also want to say a lot of your work is not
in the courtroom.
So if you're prepared for yourcase, things like that, if
you're having more anxieties ofgetting up and speaking from
these other people, then maybedo like a public speaking course
.
They have those all the time.
You can do a college, communitycollege, things like that.
So that might be somethingthat'll help your confidence in
(25:37):
the courtroom.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
And then more of a logistical thing is preparation.
I feel like the more prepared Iam for things, the more
confident I feel when I'm doingthem.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
So, yeah, absolutely All right.
Well, thank you to ourlisteners for joining us today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please leave us a
review on Apple Podcasts.
This will help us move up thechart and be more accessible to
new listeners.
You can also follow us onInstagram and Facebook, which we
have linked below.
If you have a question for ourAsk and Answer segment, email us
(26:11):
and ask us atspellingthetheritycom.
Don't forget to check out ournew website, which is also
linked below.
We will continue to addresources and information there
as well.
I hope everyone has a greatweekend.
If you will be hearing thisafter Thanksgiving, but we hope
you had a great Thanksgiving.
Yeah, we're your host.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Kathy DeMorrin Jaisalor, and then join us next
time, where you will get to heara peek of an EMDR session.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
So we'll be breaking it down one sip at a time.
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