July 17, 2025 • 50 mins
What happens when a physicist turns inward? In this transformative conversation, psychotherapist and consciousness explorer Lincoln Stoller shares his evolution from the rigid world of analytical science into the vast terrain of inner healing, mysticism, and human potential.
From summiting literal mountains to diving into the subconscious terrain of dreams, Lincoln invites us to reframe discomfort—not as something to escape, but as a powerful portal to healing. Through stories of cultural immersion, nighttime visions, and grounded practices like walking meditations, he reminds us how presence and curiosity can dissolve our inner limitations.
This episode isn’t just about ideas—it’s an invitation to stretch the edges of your consciousness. Whether you're craving deeper meaning, navigating personal transformation, or seeking soulful tools to break free from old patterns, this episode will move you.
💫 Let Lincoln’s wisdom awaken your own. Your discomfort might just be the dream whispering your next step.
🌟 Thank You for Tuning In 🌟
We hope today’s episode sparked something sacred within you — a moment of clarity, a ripple of healing, or simply the comfort of being reminded that you’re not alone on your spiritual path.
If this episode resonated with you, please take a moment to like, follow, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps this show grow, reach more souls, and attract aligned sponsors who share our mission.
Want to go deeper? Share this episode with someone you love. Text it. Post it. Tag us. You never know whose life you might touch with a single ripple of light.
✨ Explore More & Stay Connected
📺 Watch on YouTube
📘 Join us on Facebook
🌀 The Road to Spiritual Awakening Facebook Group
📖 Get the Spiritual Awakening 101 Guide
Together, we’re not just listening — we’re remembering who we truly are.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello everyone, welcome to our Spiritual
Spotlight Series.
Today I am joined by LincolnStoller.
He is a clinical counselor,psychotherapist and
neuropsychologist who's authoreda lot of books on sleep, dreams
, hypnosis, education andarchitecture.
Thank you so much for coming onSpiritual Spotlight Series.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I have to say I don't think I've ever asked anyone
that question when I started aninterview and I I apologize for
springing that on you, so I'mjust going to jump right in.
So your background isincredibly diverse, from quantum
physics to mountaineering topsychotherapy.
What was the defining moment orrealization that led you to
shift from physics a world ofhealing and consciousness?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
You know who knows.
But when I go back to think ofwhat put me in this direction,
my earliest memory is somethingI think in kindergarten, when I
was taken to a one of these sortof cosmos movies and I saw
something I don't remember much,but you know the stars and the
(01:10):
galaxies, and it kind of made merealize that these boundaries
that I had in the world werekind of artificial and that
there were things outside them,because as a kid your boundary
(01:32):
is your house and your familyand a little few other sort of
steps.
And I started, I guess, at thatpoint.
I don't want to say that I wasa genius or I was particularly
precocious.
I never quite understood why noone else was interested.
But you know, I startedwondering about bigger things.
So I got interested in physicsand you know you well, maybe you
(01:56):
don't know, but no one is verygood at teaching an advanced
subject at an introductory level.
So you don't learn anythingabout physics in high school.
Or well, I learned a little bitabout chemistry and then you
don't even know what you'relearning, whether it's enough at
(02:16):
the time, because who knows?
So, for example, I neverlearned how to write.
I went through all of collegeand I never learned how to write
and I didn't know.
I didn't know how to write.
It was sort of funny because Iwent to University of California
for my senior year.
I was going to enter as avisiting student and they failed
me because I didn't know how towrite.
(02:36):
And I thought what?
And so I got tutored by youknow, just a student in writing.
So I got tutored by you know,just a student in writing.
And again it's like, oh my God,there's more to the skill of
writing and the world than Iknew.
So you know, that's been mystory.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
It's like, whatever box you put me in, I want to
break out of it.
So what led you then to a worldof healing and consciousness.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, it's because I'm trying to figure out what
this boundary is.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And break the box.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, is this, you know, a soggy paper boundary?
Is this a hard steel boundary?
And I only know what I canbreak myself through, although
(03:42):
you're not quite sure, havingdone crazy things.
And so you start asking otherpeople, and I found it.
I guess I'd say the only reallyvaluable thing I've found in my
life has been interactions withother people.
I mean, physics is great, butwe'll make so what?
Right?
And you know you'd kind of saythe same about math.
Oh well, that's fascinating.
You know puzzles, solvingincredible structures, but like
so what?
So?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I find that interesting.
I will say that because I'm aregistered nurse and in my day
life I run a doctor's office andI do have the same kind of
feelings about math.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I'm like whatever whatever there are ways to use
it, but, of course, be involved.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Of course.
So you took up mountaineeringat a young age and planned your
own expedition expeditions.
What do these adventures teachyou about resilience, fear and
the limits of human potential um, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Those are all big questions.
We could spend a lifetime oneach of them.
I am spending a lifetime oneach of them, but um you?
know, I think the things that Ilearned.
You know if you want.
I think the things that Ilearned you know if you want to
prioritize.
The things that I learned were,uh, commitment and integrity,
because in mountaineering youhave to have commitment to a
(04:55):
project, otherwise you just turnaround and go home, which was
the sane thing to do, and youhave to have a kind of integrity
to your partners becausethey're depending on you.
And you have to have a kind ofintegrity to your partners
because they're depending on youand you have to be there
because if you're not, thenthey're not going to hang around
with you either.
Yeah, so, and you learn it at amuch higher level because you
really are hanging it out, and alot of people me included well,
(05:20):
not everybody, but are sort ofrisk takers, and so we like risk
and we like novelty and we'renot easily scared and we like
frightening things, I guess,although that's, you know, not
terrifying but challenging.
(05:41):
So you know we take it as achallenge, right, try to prevail
.
So that whole experience was somuch higher than anything I had
experienced in family or schoolthat it I mean I'm only
realizing it now that I'm almost70 that it projected me to a
(06:03):
higher level and it sort ofexplains why I could never
really relate to anybody else,like I remember putting pictures
of my summer mountaineeringadventures up in the high school
library window and no one saidanything.
It's like they were just likeabstract art.
Nobody, because I didn't.
I never saw a mountain.
I lived on the East Coast.
What was a mountain?
It was like abstract art.
(06:24):
Nobody, because I didn't.
I never saw a mountain.
I lived on the East Coast.
What was a mountain?
It was like a hill.
So you know the idea.
You know there's that old storythat, like when the Columbus
landed in Florida, the Indianslooked out and they saw these
strange things that were boats,but they never saw them before,
so they didn't know what theywere.
Right, yeah, Well, that's whatit was Right yeah, well, that's
what it was, things withmountains.
It's like I did all this stuffand people said huh.
(06:48):
So I started to realize thatthe only people I could talk to
were the ones who did it.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And that kind of.
So, as you can see, it doeskind of come around to like now
I talk to people about thethings that are important to
them.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And it's greatly reassuring and invigorating.
And I don't talk about math orscience or mountaineering, I
talk about what they do.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I do get perhaps more mileage if we have a common
ground, but I'm still intrigued,intrigued and you know it does,
it does come around to spirit,but we'll get there.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
It does, it does.
That's so you grew up on theeast coast and now I'm on the
east coast and I think we havemountains.
But now I'm thinking we don'tlike, we just have hills, like
I'm in the adirondacks, and I'mlike old hills, those are just
hills, guys, that's not.
So now I'm gonna have to lookup where you you've
mountaineered and I can't speakenglish, but wow, they're just
(07:50):
hills, that I'm the things youcan't climb up.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Hills are the things you can climb up, you know walk
up, yeah, carefully.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
So, from throat singing in magnolia to ayahuasca
ceremonies in south america,you've explored a wide range of
cultural and spiritual practices.
Were there any profoundspiritual awakenings or insights
that came from some of theseexperiences?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, of course, but at different levels.
So the most oh.
So here's the story.
God, what was the?
Psychedelics had this briefpopularity in the 60s.
That was crushed and it waskind of squandered and not very
(08:41):
serious, although there was someserious science that had
started, but that was alsocrushed.
So it all went out the windowfor the next 40 years.
And then it started to reappearculturally.
You know, there was some talkabout psychedelic mushrooms, but
it was illegal.
(09:02):
And then there was this talkabout psychedelic mushrooms, but
it was illegal.
And then there was this talkabout psychedelics in other
cultures.
I mean, not that much talk, butI heard about it.
So it wasn't legal here but itwas legal there in the other
countries.
So there was people that were,you know, bringing shamans to
(09:24):
North America andsurreptitiously offering
ceremonies and there was somepsychedelic tourism, but not
much in the you know turn of thecentury.
So around 1995, I got involvedwith that.
Why have I got involved withthat?
(09:49):
And that's, you know, if you'veever had an altered state
experience, which almosteverybody has, whether it's
because you weren't watching thetraffic and all of a sudden,
you know, I know that's analtered state experience.
You know, you got to settledown after a while.
Sit down, compose yourself andthen sleep is an altered state
experience which we largelyoverlook but not everybody.
(10:10):
And meditation and prayer andthat whole variety of ecstatic
experience are altered state andpain and illness and love and
hate, and being a parent andbeing a child I mean these are
all.
When you look at them, they'reall separate mindsets and you
(10:32):
can sort of move between them.
You know it's important toregain your childhood view and
understand the elders and soforth.
So going to different culturesis wonderful, I mean everybody
should do it and it's really notthat hard.
(10:52):
But it's hard to be welcomedwhen you cross cultural
boundaries.
So you know you can always goand sit down to the, you know,
with a hobo or the bum on thestreet and they'll talk to you
all day.
But it wouldn't be easy to do.
It would be great, and you know.
And so you could do it.
(11:13):
In certain context, though, ifyou were a health care worker,
you might feel that you could doit all right.
As a nurse, you can talk topeople about their illnesses
without feeling that you'reviolating their boundaries.
So as a cultural visitor youcan sometimes do it.
I have to say.
Here's another thing I did, andanyone can do this.
I wanted to go to Costa Ricaand see the country, but I
(11:35):
didn't want to be in part of afancy resort.
So I called the fancy resortand I got the name of their taxi
driver.
And I called their taxi driverand asked him for the name of
his parents.
And then called their taxidriver and asked him for the
name of his parents.
And then I called his parentsand I asked them would they like
to host me in their country?
right, so they say yes yes, theygave me a room and they fed me
(11:59):
food for two weeks and thentheir son, the taxi driver, came
and took me around to visit alltheir family throughout the
country and the chiquita bananaplantation and their gay uncle
who raised bees in the jungle,and it's like it was so
wonderful it's amazing nothingright what a great idea.
Anybody could do that.
You could go anywhere and dothat.
(12:20):
Uh, if you spoke the languageand even if you don't?
I've tried, but I wasn't sosuccessful.
I went to norway and tried todo that, but I don't speak
norwegian, so it right I'm likeum excuse me, need my google
translate hold please I didn'thave one then, but anyway.
So culture is really great and,um, you know, I I did these
(12:42):
cultural, ceremonial,psychedelic experiences, yeah,
and it would have been evennicer if I could have just been
part of the family and I wasactually.
An important part of my historywhich kind of gets overlooked
is that I had a girlfriend whowas an anthropologist, not a
psychologist anthropologist, nota psychologist anthropologist
(13:02):
and she did the extensive workthat was necessary to get access
to a remote tribe.
Wow because, they don't wantoutsiders coming right because
there's a lot of exploitationand crime and running through
their territory anyway.
So she got the permission, tookher a year and then I just
floated right in.
(13:23):
So, you know, I was able tolive when the isolated uh, I
don't know what you want to calla non-technical tribe.
You know they didn't have theonly, the only technical things
they had were guns and outboardmotors.
Wow, because they used thosethings, everything else,
everything else.
(13:43):
They just did with the land,wow.
And so I lived with thosepeople for a because they used
those things.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Everything else was a piece of clothing, everything
else they just did with the land.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And so I lived with those people for a month and you
know it was wonderful and theywere the most insightful people
because they had to be on pointall the time.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Just you know, being a kind of caffeine cloud driving
to work.
They always had to be aware, soit just even you know.
Even that raises yourconsciousness without, and they
didn't even use psychedelics.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Maybe they did, but it wasn't, you know, on the menu
for me.
So you know, that's, that'sjust wonderful stuff.
I'm so lucky.
Yeah, absolutely, I was able todo that.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
And you thought outside of the box that you
don't want to be attached to, tobe able to have those
experiences.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I didn't know I was getting into, but sounded
interesting.
You know, like Lawrence ofArabia or something.
I mean you do have to becareful and like now, right now,
that particular territory inPanama is more dangerous than
before because of all the drugrunning going from Colombia.
Right, yeah, I mean the storyis that they didn't build a
(14:52):
highway to South America becausethey didn't want cattle moved
either across the boundaries, sothat diseases, and so now
there's this, you know, 100miles of jungle, which just is
just the Wild West.
Right, and you have to becareful and I was lucky.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
You were lucky.
That's amazing.
That's amazing that you're ableto have those experiences.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, it was one.
I'm, I'm blessed with that, butit I mean it goes, I mean
spiritual.
I keep thinking it's, it's,it's approaching the center of
our conversation, because all ofthese interactions with people,
whether it's psychotherapeuticor cultural, are ultimately
(15:36):
spiritual, if they're going tobe of any value.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Right right, right right.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Even if you know you don't speak Spanish very well or
Norwegian or whatever it is.
You know, I had a wonderfulexperience going to Mongolia
where my friend who speaksEnglish was going to meet me,
but he was late and so I spentfour days with his mother and
father in Mongolia and I didn'tspeak Mongolian.
(16:03):
They didn't speak English.
And they took me around the townand I can't remember anything
that we didn't say wow, I just,of course you can't remember
much anyway, but you know, Ijust remember scenes and you
know, and meals and people, andI just don't remember not
communicating with them rightright, though I never verbally
(16:24):
did right, but you're still ableto have that experience, even
though you didn't speak the samelanguage, because it was
spiritual.
In a sense, we were allies.
Right, if we weren't allieswe'd have a different experience
.
But and that's interesting too,you know, in the current state
of affairs and all the enemiesthat exist in the world, that
know, nothing about each otherright.
(16:46):
But then we're we live in a lotof fear because we choose not to
learn a lot about each otheryeah, you know there's that
story about in world war one,where during christmas, the the
two adversarial sides put downtheir guns and had a party, and
you know, and then, when januaryfirst came around, all the
superior officers told them toget back to killing each other.
(17:06):
Um, it's like ridiculous, it'sabsurd anyway it is that's.
That's how I got here I likethat.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So your work does delve into sleep and dreams.
How do dreams act as a gatewayto healing and self-discovery?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Did you say how do they?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
How do they?
I apologize how do dreams actas a gateway to healing and
self-discovery?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well, I guess everyone has their opinion, but
my opinion is that dreams arethe exploration of all the
things that don't make sense.
I would agree with that,because this is the metaphor I
use if you want to travel theterritory that you don't know.
It's not really useful to knowthe path from a to b, from where
(17:55):
you are to where you want toget to, if you don't understand
what's around that path.
Because if all you know is thepath, as anyone knows who's
traveled through the woods, assoon as you get off the path,
you're lost.
Right, you could be one meteroff the path and you could be,
you head in the wrong direction.
Now you're going to be twometers off the path right so you
have to know the territory.
You have to know what not onlyjust what makes sense, what
(18:17):
you're trying to accomplish,what step-by-step progress is
toward your goal.
You have to know what feelslike the wrong thing, what
things don't fit together andhow you sense going in the wrong
way.
And to me, that's what dreamsare the exploration of all the
things that are disquieting andincommensurate and contradictory
(18:40):
.
And so we experience thesedreams, and most dreams 70% are
uncomfortable or somewhat, youknow, anxiety producing, and I
think that's the reason whypeople don't want to pay much
attention to their dreams.
(19:01):
It's like, oh, you know, thatwasn't very good.
I don't want to remember that.
But if you take the differentattitude, that this is the
exploration of the territorythat you need to know in order
to know when you're lost, inorder to have judgments and make
discerning, correctdiscernments about things, I
mean, how do you know who anenemy is if they're smiling at
(19:22):
you?
You, it's not enough.
You have to go a little morethan that, true, um?
So so you have these dreamsabout people who smile at you
with knives, you know, and andyou start to appreciate being
lost or I don't know how youwant to describe it, the
(19:43):
alternatives to what you want Imean, you don't want to explore
them in real life?
well, no, I mean we end up doingit right, you know eventually,
right, we make a lot of wrongturns.
But to explore them at greaterdepth, with greater safety, why
not just create a reality andlive right?
That's what a dream is to me,right?
(20:04):
So that's the therapeutic value.
It's like oh, you actuallystart to learn.
Well, you may learn wrongbecause you're kind of making it
up, but it's the best you cando without putting your life at
risk now let me ask you this andthis is um kind of a segue I
have noticed in this year.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I didn't used to remember my dreams and now I'm
remembering them and they'rehaving more of a.
I like the analogy of it'suncomfortable, because it is
uncomfortable, but I'm alsofinding like there's pockets of
wisdom within these dreams thatI act upon.
Are you finding that people aretapping more into wanting to
remember their dreams and usingthose as maybe a gateway for
(20:49):
conversation or healing oranything of that nature?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I don't know if they would do it on their own, so I'd
make them do it.
I say you know what are yourdreams, what are dreams?
And they'll usually say well, Idon't really remember my dreams
.
And I say I don't care, make itup and tell me a dream.
Right, because often if youjust remember the little bit of
a dream, a little other bitssort of start trickling down
right and I'm not sure how farthat goes, because you spend
(21:17):
hours dreaming and you onlyremember a pocket seconds.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
So I don't.
I don't know if you couldactually pull it all in and I
don't know what point you juststart making it up without even
knowing.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
But I like to start there.
Well, I don't want to startthere.
Sometimes I might end there,but I like to go there and say,
well, you know, and then I mean,we're talking about kind of a
therapy session here.
The therapy sessions usuallystart with what's you know,
what's happening Right andwhat's bothering you and what
(21:53):
events transpired that areimportant, and so you get a kind
of like current event, you know, front page view.
And then you might, you know,go to page six and talk about
some detail.
And then I like to ask dreams,you know what are the dreams?
And then they'll come in withsome strange dream and I'll say,
(22:13):
well, you know, that's kind ofsimilar to something or else
you've talked about.
And they'll say, oh know, that'skind of similar to something,
or else you've talked about andthey'll say oh, I didn't see
that, because I'm not reallylooking for the theme of the
dream like a narrative.
I'm just looking for theopposing parts of the dream
right so like you're cold in thedream and you were feeling cold
in this situation and you wereanxious in the dream, you know
(22:34):
it's like how was your dreamlife trying to put this together
?
And then how in your real lifehave you found?
You know, you don't have asquite the liberty in real life
as you do in dreams.
And then the question is well,what if you did have free choice
in dreams?
(22:54):
And that's sort of getting tothe area of lucid dreams, which
I have a book on which peoplelike, because I don't really
think.
I Think the whole idea of beinglucid again, coming back to
spirituality, is Is a spectrumyou're not, you know, like is.
(23:15):
Is this real, you and I no, I'mon a computer, looking at you
on a little lcd screen, sothat's not real.
But we say, oh no, that's justa, that's just the technology.
You're really looking at aperson.
Her name is rachel and you knowshe's got this story and
appearance and right background,and it's all you know.
(23:37):
If I saw elephants floatingaround your room, I'd start to
wonder, oh, that's aninteresting screensaver you've
got.
And you'd say, oh no, no, theelephants really are floating
around.
And then I'd start saying, am Iawake?
So I don't really think we'reall that lucid ever.
We're just like focused on, youknow, stepping forward in a
(23:57):
causal, predictable world,keeping it shut together and not
, you know, flipping out.
And then you could say well,Lincoln, you know, I know a lot
of people who do flip out, andthat's true.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And I kind of get.
My notion of spirit isbasically what I learned from
elders and children, and inbetween the elders and the
children it's all full of shit.
There's this grown up, you know, functional world that operates
(24:31):
, produces money and productsand material.
That's the least spiritual.
Yes, the kids are very intuitiveand spiritual and the elders
can be if they choose to be yeah, I would agree with that and um
, you know, in between, I thinkyou just have to act crazy, do a
(24:52):
lot of stuff and meet a lot ofpeople right and shape your
experiences and and maybe getout of the bullshit if possible.
Yeah, get out of it, get intoit, be a leader, be a thought
leader, an author, a therapist,a help, a parent yes, all these
(25:12):
things.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, so with your therapy.
So you mentioned that therapyprovides the tools to clarify
one's path, turning it intocoaching.
How do you help clients movefrom healing into their personal
empowerment, maybe getting outof?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
the bullshit, yeah, sort of it's.
You know it's different.
If I have a client who thinksthey're crazy, I'll tend to say
you're not so crazy, you know.
It's just you have a differentinsight and maybe you're not
applying it in a way that otherpeople are responding to.
And even if you really arecrazy, that's delusional, like
(25:51):
okay, take from it, you know,because your delusions are not
coming from nowhere.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
You know you're being triggered by something.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
So I have a client who was a sort of he was
delusional, he thought peoplewere out to get him and attack
him, and and he was a big guy,and so he ended up.
He ended up getting, you know,handcuffed by the police because
people were threatened andthey'd call the police.
And he's saying what's going on?
I'm saying, well, look, youknow, you're probably sensitive
(26:21):
to what other people feel, butyou're overreacting in a way
that's not getting you you know,and you have other powers, and
you have so, and there's otherrealities that are not the ones
that you see.
so, you know, start tounderstand more broadly and then
(26:44):
for the same people, the highperformance people, I'll say
you're crazy or you're full ofshit, or, you know, don't expect
this to work out with yourfamily, right, because because
you know, I, I work with thesehigh performance people and
they're very demanding and verydiscerning and and like it's not
(27:06):
going to work out for yoursix-year-old son, you know,
you're just, it's going to be atrain wreck if you right yeah
and often those people areacceptable to that.
because high performance ifyou're be a high-performance
person, you have to have somethick skin.
You do, you have to have sometraction.
You can't just get knocked intoa ditch by everybody who
(27:26):
criticizes you and then the youknow.
So that's the quick answer toyour question is expand a
person's boundary outside theircomfort zone.
But then it gets delicatebecause as you take a person
outside their comfort zone, theyget uncomfortable and they may
(27:46):
start getting threatened andthey may start getting uh, uh,
have violent reactions, not, youknow, not necessarily
physically, but emotionally andverbally.
And then the question is isthat where they need to go?
You know, have they built alife that's insulated them from
(28:11):
that?
Uh, and is that to theirdetriment?
And is my job to push themthrough it, and to what extent?
And I have to sort of protectmyself because I get injured if
I standing on, so you knowsomebody's gonna be left
(28:40):
standing right and one of thethings that I learned in all
this, you know, life experienceis or maybe I had it to begin
with, I'm not sure, maybe it wasgenetic, you know stability.
I'm a kind of stable person sothat I can do destabilizing
things and come back to thecenter.
So I do that with my clients.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I'll destabilize the stable ones, and I'll try to
stabilize the unstable ones.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
And so then it says oh you know, then you might say
oh well, lincoln, you've got awonderful formula there.
It's going to work always.
But of course it doesn't,because when you take people out
of their either stable orunstable comfort zones, they can
get very anxious and upset, andof course the first target for
(29:28):
everybody is whoever is in frontof you right right, it's your
fault.
Um, whoever you are, you know myboss, the pedestrian, my
therapist or my son, and that'spathetic, but it's true because
you have.
It's either that or you blameyourself, and then that becomes
another problem right right andyou're neurotic, so it's very
(29:52):
delicate and I think you have totake it with a grain of humor.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Ultimately, I would agree with that Definitely.
If you can't, if you can't kindof attack these things with a
little bit of humor, you're,you're set up for some sadness,
unhappiness.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And I think you can go further.
You can look at life as I don'tknow, not necessarily humor
Humor is great but you can alsojust look at it as wonder.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I like that Sense of awe, sense of wonder.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah it's like Wow, that's crazy, you know.
I mean, I've had a number ofexperiences where I was, you
know, nearly killed, and I don'tthink I was premeditated.
But at those moments, insteadof being fearful, I was just in
(30:50):
awe.
You know, I said, wow, this maybe my last three seconds, and I
just like, I just said wow andI just watched the shit go past
and I didn't get killed, andbecause of that the memories are
not traumatic that'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I mean they were.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
They were, uh, you know, falling from great heights
.
I, I'm looking around saying,wow, look at this.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
You know, um, I, I would have, by all rights,
should have been terrified andtraumatized, but you did say in
the beginning that it seems likeyou didn't have a lot of fear
of like kind of scary situations, and I find that interesting
because as a child myself, mymom always used to tell me
(31:38):
you're, you were born scared andyou were scared of everything,
and then like living a lifeovercoming being scared.
So I think that's where I feellike we're on two different
spectrums of where our fear is,and I find that interesting.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I'm not sure you anyone couldn't overcome their
fears.
So if your fears were, I don'tknow what they were.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
They were dumb and I'm not sure anyone couldn't
overcome their fears.
So if your fears were, I don'tknow what they were.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
They were dumb.
She said I was scared of icecream.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I was like, really Come on.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
What you think it was genetic.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Where did you get that 100,?
Okay, you know what?
Let's jump in.
I 100% think it was genetic.
I think it came from my mom,who has multiple personalities
and had a very tough life, and Ithink that got embedded into my
cellular tissue and then when Icame into being, it's been an
interesting experience.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
So have you found a way to overcome it, or shepherd
it, or somehow make it an asset?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yes, yes, I will say that I've like I think kind of
like you just jump in, you justpush past the uncomfortable
feeling and you do it.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, I had a this.
This quote keeps coming up.
I read about this dream.
It wasn't mine.
Here's the dream I'm runningaway from.
It's not me, it's the dreamsomeone else's dream.
I'm running away from thisgorilla, this, you know,
tremendous, monstrous gorilla,and it's chasing me and it's
(33:09):
going to kill me.
And at some point I realize Ihave to stop and face it.
And I turn around and as I facethe gorilla, it comes up and it
turns into a man and it says tome you've got to be more
careful about how you expressyourself.
That's interesting so there isthis odd thing that, uh, what
(33:40):
you're?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
most afraid of often isn't what you expect it to be.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I would agree, inhaling liquids is always
something one should be cautiousabout Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Thank you Go to that drink, rachel?
Yeah, I would.
Um, yeah, I would agree withyou the things that maybe I was
afraid of.
I really wasn't and I thinkit's more of the unknown and,
(34:11):
like you said, a stable personand an unstable person.
I grew up in an unstableenvironment, which was
interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
But back to you.
I mean I can't overgeneralize,but I like to generalize and say
that a lot of people who growup in difficult environments,
well it's got to be qualified.
Children who grow up inunstable, unsupportive
environments can get very fuckedup.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
And developmentally warped, yeah, unable to bond or
trust, yeah, and it makes sortof rational sense, but it
doesn't do well and it's veryhard to overcome, if that's your
mindset.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I would agree.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
I would.
I originally felt, you know, Iwas a physicist and a
mountaineer and I, you know allstrong and headstrong and stuff,
not thinking about needing help, I mean whatever.
So Coming to be a therapist waskind of a switch a big switch
(35:16):
and I had to overcome theprejudice not just that people
who needed help were weaker, butthat I was somehow powerful by
being a therapist, and I nowappreciate and I'm serious that
the people who seek help areusually the people who are more
(35:36):
able to move forward.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
You know, it's a kind of like the positive side of
vulnerability.
If you're willing to work withthe stuff you can't solve
instead of walling yourself offfrom it, all the better for you.
Absolutely off from it, all thebetter for you, absolutely so.
I see my role as a therapistsomewhat like a coach.
(36:00):
It's like I mean the coach wordis a little stilted.
I mean you think of a crotch islike an athletic coach, you
know, teaching you how to do itright.
You know I I have a.
Well, the first book I wrote,called the Learning Project,
interviewed people of all agesand asked them how did they get
(36:20):
to where they are and why?
And I interviewed a greatwrestling coach who talked about
what it was what he did and why.
And he worked withdisadvantaged kids from poor,
fucked up backgrounds yeah youknow New York City area.
And he said basically all I'mtrying to do is get them to be
(36:44):
the best that they can be.
I like that you don't have to bea champion, but and he was
famous for achieving that ofelevating people to a higher
level and he was doing it as awrestling coach, a very, you
know, pragmatic, middle-classguy from a whole middle-class
(37:08):
Long Island community.
He was an Olympic wrestler, sohe actually did get to a very
high level, but just listeningto him and he didn't want to
talk to me.
He didn't want to talk toanybody because it was all
philosophy.
He wasn't about philosophy.
Oh, wow he was about dealingwith kids one-on-one, but he got
convinced to speak to mebecause one of his students knew
(37:30):
me.
So it was a wonderfulconversation between a reticent
elder and me who's not awrestler.
So, um, that's a great book.
But you know that whole thelearning process, the therapy
process, the vulnerabilityprocess, the spiritual process,
right, they're all the same.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Right, yeah, that's interesting.
I think that's so interestingso you did kind of mention this
before.
So you have experienced a neardeath situation.
You experienced it withCOVID-19.
How did that impact yourperspective on life and healing
and the work you do now?
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Well, I think it's hard to say.
You know, the mountaineeringexperiences were kind of odd,
right, you don't encounter thosein every case I know.
It's more like an auto accident, so it's a trauma.
It's like how to deal withtrauma.
And then I'm also a grieftherapist for alpinists who've
(38:35):
lost partners.
You know, people whose friendshave died.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
It is interesting because, like from my point of
view, death was either yourpartner's death or the parents
of your partners who've died,but not other climbers who were
dealing with their problems thataren't yours.
So often in dealing with thesepeople it's not that unusual, I
(39:09):
guess, but it sounds funny theconversation never turns to the
trauma.
Oh, wow, it's.
It's all about, you know,stability in life and getting
our feet on the ground and andfinding meaning in what we're
doing.
And then maybe the trauma comesup.
(39:30):
But why bring it up unlessyou've got something that you
can conclude?
I mean, you don't want to justretraumatize yourself.
What do I have to say about youknow, and to think about, like
veterans who not just havetrauma but had horror,
absolutely, and agony, right,why bring it up if you don't
(39:50):
have somewhere better?
You know it's like well, I gothrough the garbage unless you
can't take the garbage out.
So true, I just dig through thegarbage.
So I find myself dealing withpositive things.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
There's going to be an interruption here.
Hold on, that's okay, it's nota problem.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
The teenagers.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Hi teenagers, I think it's interesting that you're
talking about grief and I dowant to ask this question, and
maybe this is not something youhit upon and I apologize if it's
not.
My brother committed suicide acouple of years ago and I
noticed that in the family weall were allowed different
levels of grief.
And have you noticed thatwithin families, kind of like
(40:33):
how some people are allowed togrieve and some are not to the
extent of others, and how wouldyou recommend they deal with
that?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
I can't say because I haven't had direct experience
with families, but myinclination would be just to be
honest and yeah uh, well, meanit's like I do deal with
relationships which are usuallytwo people.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
And my advice is engage.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
And reveal, right, expose, explore and recognize
that, even though you're in anadversarial situation, it could
be all the more meaningful forthat reason.
I like that so often, when thisis both humorous and common,
(41:27):
that I'll deal with arelationship that needs to end.
I mean, people are coming to mewhen the house is on fire right
, right right and my advice isessentially get out of the house
.
Uh, and at that point I'll sayto them now you have a real
relationship with this person,now your relationship with them
is permanent.
Yeah, it's been branded ontoyour soul, right, right, and so
(41:52):
that it may be inappropriate tohate them, or, um, because
they're going to be continuallyeducating you throughout the
rest of your life absolutely asa counter example, but
nevertheless, um, I mean this isthose.
one of the christian ideas ofhell is not that it's where you
(42:14):
go to be punished, but where yougo to see all the crimes you've
committed and takeresponsibility for them they're
going to heaven and they have tolike relive their life like and
(42:35):
they're going through thelessons and I apologize, I can't
remember the name of it thatmovie.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
I did not like that movie.
I watched it at a very youngage and I'm like I don't know
that.
So I tried to be like I'm sosorry I I messed up the dog.
I'm so sorry I yelled at youlike take ownership of my
actions so so that's, you know,like, take ownership of my
actions.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
So that's sort of an answer to your question.
When people are in struggle andtorment, well, this is like
this wrestling coach said to mewhen one of my students is
defeated on the wrestling mat, Idon't go out and pat him on the
back and say it's okay.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I say I wait for him to pull himself together and I
say what is it that we can learnfrom this?
Right?
You know what do we need towork on?
How can we orient ourselves inthis situation so that it's more
positive next time?
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
So, you know, could you do that to a person in
distress?
Could you do it?
Well, see, you can't often doit to somebody who's hostile to
you.
So the question is, you've gotto get rid of the hostility in
order to get to a place.
Well, another story is thisclient who's schizophrenic, who
would always end up in handcuffs.
(43:57):
He would said you know this?
Uh, I threatened some guy whowas threatening me and I said to
him well, maybe he wasn'tthreatening you, maybe he was
feeling threatened, right.
And instead of, uh, grabbinghim by the cuffs and shaking him
the way you do, you should havesaid to him I see you're upset,
(44:20):
can I help you?
You know right.
And then if you reframe thewhole thing as not adversarial,
grief, grief-threatening orviolent, there'll be a whole
different way you can proceedand be perceived.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Because, look, this guy was a schizophrenic.
He always had this dull,threatening.
Look on his face.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
And that didn't help.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
The name of the movie is Defending your Life in case
anyone's interested Defendingyour.
Life.
Meryl Streep sent it.
It came out in 1990.
If you watch the movie andyou're like it's not so bad,
that movie traumatized me, Iwill schedule a session with you
to have a counseling session todiscuss it.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
And there's that Robin Williams movie about the
guy whose wife dies and then hekills himself, or he dies and
she kills himself.
Oh, that's it he dies and shekills herself.
Oh, wow, and then he meets herin hell, because she went to
hell, because she killed herself.
Oh wow, but he abandons heavenand goes to hell To go down with
her.
Yeah, to help her, and it'sfull of wonderful CGI effects of
(45:33):
you know flowers and stuff.
It's a nice.
It's a.
It's a nice movie.
I love anything with RobinWilliams.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
He's amazing.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
So sad story yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
But, but still, anything with him is just the
best.
Um, before I ask you the lastquestion, if anyone is
interested in learning moreabout you, uh, what is the best
place for them to go to?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
well, as you mentioned, the website is big.
It has one front page and thenit has tabs to go to
neuropsychology and mentoringand education, and everything
books.
You have books you have a lotof books on there.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
You've got like everything biofeedback.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
You have a lot, which is amazing so, uh, I mean, the
other thing I have is I have ablog which you can get through
to, the website which is calledmind, strength, balance dot com
and the blog.
They're all long articles andyou could look them up by topic.
Nice, if that helps you,because if depression or
(46:33):
relationships or brain trainingor I don't know what you know,
and ultimately I'll talk topeople for free for 15 minutes
if they sign, up.
So that's it Mind strengthbalance.
Thank you very much Thank youvery much.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
For those listening who feel stuck, whether in their
mental, emotional, spiritualgrowth, what is one simple yet
powerful practice that they canstart today to begin to shift
the reality?
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Oh, that makes that.
That tickles the uh.
The Joker in me takespsychedelics.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
You know they're becoming legal.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
I know, but actually I'm not an I'm not a broad
spectrum encouraging person withpsychedelics.
Um, I think psychedelics aregreat to learn about, but
they're not always.
I mean work, meditate, yeah,that kind of falls on deaf ears
(47:36):
or go into your dreams, but thenpeople don't want to.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Lincoln I need something good.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Go out for walks that's great advice yeah, go out
for walks go for a walk, getreconnected with the earth, the
electromagnetic field.
Go out for a walk, that's greatadvice.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Like Socrates or somebody said if you have a
problem, go for a walk, and ifyou haven't solved your problem,
go for another walk.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Yeah, go touch grass guys, yeah, yeah, no, I try to
get out every day, every day.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
That's perfect.
That is perfect.
I'm looking outside, I'm like Itry to get out every day.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Every day.
It's perfect In a shine.
That is perfect.
I'm looking outside.
I'm like I see the snow, but Iam trying to get outside more.
That's great, great advice,because when things get too, you
just need to decompress andbreathe.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Some time to think.
You need some time to feel andthink yes.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Absolutely Well, Lincoln.
Hello everyone, welcome to our Spiritual
Spotlight Series.
Today I am joined by LincolnStoller.
He is a clinical counselor,psychotherapist and
neuropsychologist who's authoreda lot of books on sleep, dreams
, hypnosis, education andarchitecture.
Thank you so much for coming onSpiritual Spotlight Series.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I have to say I don't think I've ever asked anyone
that question when I started aninterview and I I apologize for
springing that on you, so I'mjust going to jump right in.
So your background isincredibly diverse, from quantum
physics to mountaineering topsychotherapy.
What was the defining moment orrealization that led you to
shift from physics a world ofhealing and consciousness?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
You know who knows.
But when I go back to think ofwhat put me in this direction,
my earliest memory is somethingI think in kindergarten, when I
was taken to a one of these sortof cosmos movies and I saw
something I don't remember much,but you know the stars and the
(01:10):
galaxies, and it kind of made merealize that these boundaries
that I had in the world werekind of artificial and that
there were things outside them,because as a kid your boundary
(01:32):
is your house and your familyand a little few other sort of
steps.
And I started, I guess, at thatpoint.
I don't want to say that I wasa genius or I was particularly
precocious.
I never quite understood why noone else was interested.
But you know, I startedwondering about bigger things.
So I got interested in physicsand you know you well, maybe you
(01:56):
don't know, but no one is verygood at teaching an advanced
subject at an introductory level.
So you don't learn anythingabout physics in high school.
Or well, I learned a little bitabout chemistry and then you
don't even know what you'relearning, whether it's enough at
(02:16):
the time, because who knows?
So, for example, I neverlearned how to write.
I went through all of collegeand I never learned how to write
and I didn't know.
I didn't know how to write.
It was sort of funny because Iwent to University of California
for my senior year.
I was going to enter as avisiting student and they failed
me because I didn't know how towrite.
(02:36):
And I thought what?
And so I got tutored by youknow, just a student in writing.
So I got tutored by you know,just a student in writing.
And again it's like, oh my God,there's more to the skill of
writing and the world than Iknew.
So you know, that's been mystory.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
It's like, whatever box you put me in, I want to
break out of it.
So what led you then to a worldof healing and consciousness.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, it's because I'm trying to figure out what
this boundary is.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And break the box.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, is this, you know, a soggy paper boundary?
Is this a hard steel boundary?
And I only know what I canbreak myself through, although
(03:42):
you're not quite sure, havingdone crazy things.
And so you start asking otherpeople, and I found it.
I guess I'd say the only reallyvaluable thing I've found in my
life has been interactions withother people.
I mean, physics is great, butwe'll make so what?
Right?
And you know you'd kind of saythe same about math.
Oh well, that's fascinating.
You know puzzles, solvingincredible structures, but like
so what?
So?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I find that interesting.
I will say that because I'm aregistered nurse and in my day
life I run a doctor's office andI do have the same kind of
feelings about math.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I'm like whatever whatever there are ways to use
it, but, of course, be involved.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Of course.
So you took up mountaineeringat a young age and planned your
own expedition expeditions.
What do these adventures teachyou about resilience, fear and
the limits of human potential um, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Those are all big questions.
We could spend a lifetime oneach of them.
I am spending a lifetime oneach of them, but um you?
know, I think the things that Ilearned.
You know if you want.
I think the things that Ilearned you know if you want to
prioritize.
The things that I learned were,uh, commitment and integrity,
because in mountaineering youhave to have commitment to a
(04:55):
project, otherwise you just turnaround and go home, which was
the sane thing to do, and youhave to have a kind of integrity
to your partners becausethey're depending on you.
And you have to have a kind ofintegrity to your partners
because they're depending on youand you have to be there
because if you're not, thenthey're not going to hang around
with you either.
Yeah, so, and you learn it at amuch higher level because you
really are hanging it out, and alot of people me included well,
(05:20):
not everybody, but are sort ofrisk takers, and so we like risk
and we like novelty and we'renot easily scared and we like
frightening things, I guess,although that's, you know, not
terrifying but challenging.
(05:41):
So you know we take it as achallenge, right, try to prevail
.
So that whole experience was somuch higher than anything I had
experienced in family or schoolthat it I mean I'm only
realizing it now that I'm almost70 that it projected me to a
(06:03):
higher level and it sort ofexplains why I could never
really relate to anybody else,like I remember putting pictures
of my summer mountaineeringadventures up in the high school
library window and no one saidanything.
It's like they were just likeabstract art.
Nobody, because I didn't.
I never saw a mountain.
I lived on the East Coast.
What was a mountain?
It was like abstract art.
(06:24):
Nobody, because I didn't.
I never saw a mountain.
I lived on the East Coast.
What was a mountain?
It was like a hill.
So you know the idea.
You know there's that old storythat, like when the Columbus
landed in Florida, the Indianslooked out and they saw these
strange things that were boats,but they never saw them before,
so they didn't know what theywere.
Right, yeah, Well, that's whatit was Right yeah, well, that's
what it was, things withmountains.
It's like I did all this stuffand people said huh.
(06:48):
So I started to realize thatthe only people I could talk to
were the ones who did it.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And that kind of.
So, as you can see, it doeskind of come around to like now
I talk to people about thethings that are important to
them.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And it's greatly reassuring and invigorating.
And I don't talk about math orscience or mountaineering, I
talk about what they do.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I do get perhaps more mileage if we have a common
ground, but I'm still intrigued,intrigued and you know it does,
it does come around to spirit,but we'll get there.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
It does, it does.
That's so you grew up on theeast coast and now I'm on the
east coast and I think we havemountains.
But now I'm thinking we don'tlike, we just have hills, like
I'm in the adirondacks, and I'mlike old hills, those are just
hills, guys, that's not.
So now I'm gonna have to lookup where you you've
mountaineered and I can't speakenglish, but wow, they're just
(07:50):
hills, that I'm the things youcan't climb up.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Hills are the things you can climb up, you know walk
up, yeah, carefully.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
So, from throat singing in magnolia to ayahuasca
ceremonies in south america,you've explored a wide range of
cultural and spiritual practices.
Were there any profoundspiritual awakenings or insights
that came from some of theseexperiences?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, of course, but at different levels.
So the most oh.
So here's the story.
God, what was the?
Psychedelics had this briefpopularity in the 60s.
That was crushed and it waskind of squandered and not very
(08:41):
serious, although there was someserious science that had
started, but that was alsocrushed.
So it all went out the windowfor the next 40 years.
And then it started to reappearculturally.
You know, there was some talkabout psychedelic mushrooms, but
it was illegal.
(09:02):
And then there was this talkabout psychedelic mushrooms, but
it was illegal.
And then there was this talkabout psychedelics in other
cultures.
I mean, not that much talk, butI heard about it.
So it wasn't legal here but itwas legal there in the other
countries.
So there was people that were,you know, bringing shamans to
(09:24):
North America andsurreptitiously offering
ceremonies and there was somepsychedelic tourism, but not
much in the you know turn of thecentury.
So around 1995, I got involvedwith that.
Why have I got involved withthat?
(09:49):
And that's, you know, if you'veever had an altered state
experience, which almosteverybody has, whether it's
because you weren't watching thetraffic and all of a sudden,
you know, I know that's analtered state experience.
You know, you got to settledown after a while.
Sit down, compose yourself andthen sleep is an altered state
experience which we largelyoverlook but not everybody.
(10:10):
And meditation and prayer andthat whole variety of ecstatic
experience are altered state andpain and illness and love and
hate, and being a parent andbeing a child I mean these are
all.
When you look at them, they'reall separate mindsets and you
(10:32):
can sort of move between them.
You know it's important toregain your childhood view and
understand the elders and soforth.
So going to different culturesis wonderful, I mean everybody
should do it and it's really notthat hard.
(10:52):
But it's hard to be welcomedwhen you cross cultural
boundaries.
So you know you can always goand sit down to the, you know,
with a hobo or the bum on thestreet and they'll talk to you
all day.
But it wouldn't be easy to do.
It would be great, and you know.
And so you could do it.
(11:13):
In certain context, though, ifyou were a health care worker,
you might feel that you could doit all right.
As a nurse, you can talk topeople about their illnesses
without feeling that you'reviolating their boundaries.
So as a cultural visitor youcan sometimes do it.
I have to say.
Here's another thing I did, andanyone can do this.
I wanted to go to Costa Ricaand see the country, but I
(11:35):
didn't want to be in part of afancy resort.
So I called the fancy resortand I got the name of their taxi
driver.
And I called their taxi driverand asked him for the name of
his parents.
And then called their taxidriver and asked him for the
name of his parents.
And then I called his parentsand I asked them would they like
to host me in their country?
right, so they say yes yes, theygave me a room and they fed me
(11:59):
food for two weeks and thentheir son, the taxi driver, came
and took me around to visit alltheir family throughout the
country and the chiquita bananaplantation and their gay uncle
who raised bees in the jungle,and it's like it was so
wonderful it's amazing nothingright what a great idea.
Anybody could do that.
You could go anywhere and dothat.
(12:20):
Uh, if you spoke the languageand even if you don't?
I've tried, but I wasn't sosuccessful.
I went to norway and tried todo that, but I don't speak
norwegian, so it right I'm likeum excuse me, need my google
translate hold please I didn'thave one then, but anyway.
So culture is really great and,um, you know, I I did these
(12:42):
cultural, ceremonial,psychedelic experiences, yeah,
and it would have been evennicer if I could have just been
part of the family and I wasactually.
An important part of my historywhich kind of gets overlooked
is that I had a girlfriend whowas an anthropologist, not a
psychologist anthropologist, nota psychologist anthropologist
(13:02):
and she did the extensive workthat was necessary to get access
to a remote tribe.
Wow because, they don't wantoutsiders coming right because
there's a lot of exploitationand crime and running through
their territory anyway.
So she got the permission, tookher a year and then I just
floated right in.
(13:23):
So, you know, I was able tolive when the isolated uh, I
don't know what you want to calla non-technical tribe.
You know they didn't have theonly, the only technical things
they had were guns and outboardmotors.
Wow, because they used thosethings, everything else,
everything else.
(13:43):
They just did with the land,wow.
And so I lived with thosepeople for a because they used
those things.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Everything else was a piece of clothing, everything
else they just did with the land.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
And so I lived with those people for a month and you
know it was wonderful and theywere the most insightful people
because they had to be on pointall the time.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Just you know, being a kind of caffeine cloud driving
to work.
They always had to be aware, soit just even you know.
Even that raises yourconsciousness without, and they
didn't even use psychedelics.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Maybe they did, but it wasn't, you know, on the menu
for me.
So you know, that's, that'sjust wonderful stuff.
I'm so lucky.
Yeah, absolutely, I was able todo that.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
And you thought outside of the box that you
don't want to be attached to, tobe able to have those
experiences.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I didn't know I was getting into, but sounded
interesting.
You know, like Lawrence ofArabia or something.
I mean you do have to becareful and like now, right now,
that particular territory inPanama is more dangerous than
before because of all the drugrunning going from Colombia.
Right, yeah, I mean the storyis that they didn't build a
(14:52):
highway to South America becausethey didn't want cattle moved
either across the boundaries, sothat diseases, and so now
there's this, you know, 100miles of jungle, which just is
just the Wild West.
Right, and you have to becareful and I was lucky.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
You were lucky.
That's amazing.
That's amazing that you're ableto have those experiences.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, it was one.
I'm, I'm blessed with that, butit I mean it goes, I mean
spiritual.
I keep thinking it's, it's,it's approaching the center of
our conversation, because all ofthese interactions with people,
whether it's psychotherapeuticor cultural, are ultimately
(15:36):
spiritual, if they're going tobe of any value.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Right right, right right.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Even if you know you don't speak Spanish very well or
Norwegian or whatever it is.
You know, I had a wonderfulexperience going to Mongolia
where my friend who speaksEnglish was going to meet me,
but he was late and so I spentfour days with his mother and
father in Mongolia and I didn'tspeak Mongolian.
(16:03):
They didn't speak English.
And they took me around the townand I can't remember anything
that we didn't say wow, I just,of course you can't remember
much anyway, but you know, Ijust remember scenes and you
know, and meals and people, andI just don't remember not
communicating with them rightright, though I never verbally
(16:24):
did right, but you're still ableto have that experience, even
though you didn't speak the samelanguage, because it was
spiritual.
In a sense, we were allies.
Right, if we weren't allieswe'd have a different experience
.
But and that's interesting too,you know, in the current state
of affairs and all the enemiesthat exist in the world, that
know, nothing about each otherright.
(16:46):
But then we're we live in a lotof fear because we choose not to
learn a lot about each otheryeah, you know there's that
story about in world war one,where during christmas, the the
two adversarial sides put downtheir guns and had a party, and
you know, and then, when januaryfirst came around, all the
superior officers told them toget back to killing each other.
(17:06):
Um, it's like ridiculous, it'sabsurd anyway it is that's.
That's how I got here I likethat.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So your work does delve into sleep and dreams.
How do dreams act as a gatewayto healing and self-discovery?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Did you say how do they?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
How do they?
I apologize how do dreams actas a gateway to healing and
self-discovery?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well, I guess everyone has their opinion, but
my opinion is that dreams arethe exploration of all the
things that don't make sense.
I would agree with that,because this is the metaphor I
use if you want to travel theterritory that you don't know.
It's not really useful to knowthe path from a to b, from where
(17:55):
you are to where you want toget to, if you don't understand
what's around that path.
Because if all you know is thepath, as anyone knows who's
traveled through the woods, assoon as you get off the path,
you're lost.
Right, you could be one meteroff the path and you could be,
you head in the wrong direction.
Now you're going to be twometers off the path right so you
have to know the territory.
You have to know what not onlyjust what makes sense, what
(18:17):
you're trying to accomplish,what step-by-step progress is
toward your goal.
You have to know what feelslike the wrong thing, what
things don't fit together andhow you sense going in the wrong
way.
And to me, that's what dreamsare the exploration of all the
things that are disquieting andincommensurate and contradictory
(18:40):
.
And so we experience thesedreams, and most dreams 70% are
uncomfortable or somewhat, youknow, anxiety producing, and I
think that's the reason whypeople don't want to pay much
attention to their dreams.
(19:01):
It's like, oh, you know, thatwasn't very good.
I don't want to remember that.
But if you take the differentattitude, that this is the
exploration of the territorythat you need to know in order
to know when you're lost, inorder to have judgments and make
discerning, correctdiscernments about things, I
mean, how do you know who anenemy is if they're smiling at
(19:22):
you?
You, it's not enough.
You have to go a little morethan that, true, um?
So so you have these dreamsabout people who smile at you
with knives, you know, and andyou start to appreciate being
lost or I don't know how youwant to describe it, the
(19:43):
alternatives to what you want Imean, you don't want to explore
them in real life?
well, no, I mean we end up doingit right, you know eventually,
right, we make a lot of wrongturns.
But to explore them at greaterdepth, with greater safety, why
not just create a reality andlive right?
That's what a dream is to me,right?
(20:04):
So that's the therapeutic value.
It's like oh, you actuallystart to learn.
Well, you may learn wrongbecause you're kind of making it
up, but it's the best you cando without putting your life at
risk now let me ask you this andthis is um kind of a segue I
have noticed in this year.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I didn't used to remember my dreams and now I'm
remembering them and they'rehaving more of a.
I like the analogy of it'suncomfortable, because it is
uncomfortable, but I'm alsofinding like there's pockets of
wisdom within these dreams thatI act upon.
Are you finding that people aretapping more into wanting to
remember their dreams and usingthose as maybe a gateway for
(20:49):
conversation or healing oranything of that nature?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I don't know if they would do it on their own, so I'd
make them do it.
I say you know what are yourdreams, what are dreams?
And they'll usually say well, Idon't really remember my dreams
.
And I say I don't care, make itup and tell me a dream.
Right, because often if youjust remember the little bit of
a dream, a little other bitssort of start trickling down
right and I'm not sure how farthat goes, because you spend
(21:17):
hours dreaming and you onlyremember a pocket seconds.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
So I don't.
I don't know if you couldactually pull it all in and I
don't know what point you juststart making it up without even
knowing.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
But I like to start there.
Well, I don't want to startthere.
Sometimes I might end there,but I like to go there and say,
well, you know, and then I mean,we're talking about kind of a
therapy session here.
The therapy sessions usuallystart with what's you know,
what's happening Right andwhat's bothering you and what
(21:53):
events transpired that areimportant, and so you get a kind
of like current event, you know, front page view.
And then you might, you know,go to page six and talk about
some detail.
And then I like to ask dreams,you know what are the dreams?
And then they'll come in withsome strange dream and I'll say,
(22:13):
well, you know, that's kind ofsimilar to something or else
you've talked about.
And they'll say, oh know, that'skind of similar to something,
or else you've talked about andthey'll say oh, I didn't see
that, because I'm not reallylooking for the theme of the
dream like a narrative.
I'm just looking for theopposing parts of the dream
right so like you're cold in thedream and you were feeling cold
in this situation and you wereanxious in the dream, you know
(22:34):
it's like how was your dreamlife trying to put this together
?
And then how in your real lifehave you found?
You know, you don't have asquite the liberty in real life
as you do in dreams.
And then the question is well,what if you did have free choice
in dreams?
(22:54):
And that's sort of getting tothe area of lucid dreams, which
I have a book on which peoplelike, because I don't really
think.
I Think the whole idea of beinglucid again, coming back to
spirituality, is Is a spectrumyou're not, you know, like is.
(23:15):
Is this real, you and I no, I'mon a computer, looking at you
on a little lcd screen, sothat's not real.
But we say, oh no, that's justa, that's just the technology.
You're really looking at aperson.
Her name is rachel and you knowshe's got this story and
appearance and right background,and it's all you know.
(23:37):
If I saw elephants floatingaround your room, I'd start to
wonder, oh, that's aninteresting screensaver you've
got.
And you'd say, oh no, no, theelephants really are floating
around.
And then I'd start saying, am Iawake?
So I don't really think we'reall that lucid ever.
We're just like focused on, youknow, stepping forward in a
(23:57):
causal, predictable world,keeping it shut together and not
, you know, flipping out.
And then you could say well,Lincoln, you know, I know a lot
of people who do flip out, andthat's true.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And I kind of get.
My notion of spirit isbasically what I learned from
elders and children, and inbetween the elders and the
children it's all full of shit.
There's this grown up, you know, functional world that operates
(24:31):
, produces money and productsand material.
That's the least spiritual.
Yes, the kids are very intuitiveand spiritual and the elders
can be if they choose to be yeah, I would agree with that and um
, you know, in between, I thinkyou just have to act crazy, do a
(24:52):
lot of stuff and meet a lot ofpeople right and shape your
experiences and and maybe getout of the bullshit if possible.
Yeah, get out of it, get intoit, be a leader, be a thought
leader, an author, a therapist,a help, a parent yes, all these
(25:12):
things.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, so with your therapy.
So you mentioned that therapyprovides the tools to clarify
one's path, turning it intocoaching.
How do you help clients movefrom healing into their personal
empowerment, maybe getting outof?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
the bullshit, yeah, sort of it's.
You know it's different.
If I have a client who thinksthey're crazy, I'll tend to say
you're not so crazy, you know.
It's just you have a differentinsight and maybe you're not
applying it in a way that otherpeople are responding to.
And even if you really arecrazy, that's delusional, like
(25:51):
okay, take from it, you know,because your delusions are not
coming from nowhere.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
You know you're being triggered by something.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
So I have a client who was a sort of he was
delusional, he thought peoplewere out to get him and attack
him, and and he was a big guy,and so he ended up.
He ended up getting, you know,handcuffed by the police because
people were threatened andthey'd call the police.
And he's saying what's going on?
I'm saying, well, look, youknow, you're probably sensitive
(26:21):
to what other people feel, butyou're overreacting in a way
that's not getting you you know,and you have other powers, and
you have so, and there's otherrealities that are not the ones
that you see.
so, you know, start tounderstand more broadly and then
(26:44):
for the same people, the highperformance people, I'll say
you're crazy or you're full ofshit, or, you know, don't expect
this to work out with yourfamily, right, because because
you know, I, I work with thesehigh performance people and
they're very demanding and verydiscerning and and like it's not
(27:06):
going to work out for yoursix-year-old son, you know,
you're just, it's going to be atrain wreck if you right yeah
and often those people areacceptable to that.
because high performance ifyou're be a high-performance
person, you have to have somethick skin.
You do, you have to have sometraction.
You can't just get knocked intoa ditch by everybody who
(27:26):
criticizes you and then the youknow.
So that's the quick answer toyour question is expand a
person's boundary outside theircomfort zone.
But then it gets delicatebecause as you take a person
outside their comfort zone, theyget uncomfortable and they may
(27:46):
start getting threatened andthey may start getting uh, uh,
have violent reactions, not, youknow, not necessarily
physically, but emotionally andverbally.
And then the question is isthat where they need to go?
You know, have they built alife that's insulated them from
(28:11):
that?
Uh, and is that to theirdetriment?
And is my job to push themthrough it, and to what extent?
And I have to sort of protectmyself because I get injured if
I standing on, so you knowsomebody's gonna be left
(28:40):
standing right and one of thethings that I learned in all
this, you know, life experienceis or maybe I had it to begin
with, I'm not sure, maybe it wasgenetic, you know stability.
I'm a kind of stable person sothat I can do destabilizing
things and come back to thecenter.
So I do that with my clients.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I'll destabilize the stable ones, and I'll try to
stabilize the unstable ones.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
And so then it says oh you know, then you might say
oh well, lincoln, you've got awonderful formula there.
It's going to work always.
But of course it doesn't,because when you take people out
of their either stable orunstable comfort zones, they can
get very anxious and upset, andof course the first target for
(29:28):
everybody is whoever is in frontof you right right, it's your
fault.
Um, whoever you are, you know myboss, the pedestrian, my
therapist or my son, and that'spathetic, but it's true because
you have.
It's either that or you blameyourself, and then that becomes
another problem right right andyou're neurotic, so it's very
(29:52):
delicate and I think you have totake it with a grain of humor.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Ultimately, I would agree with that Definitely.
If you can't, if you can't kindof attack these things with a
little bit of humor, you're,you're set up for some sadness,
unhappiness.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
And I think you can go further.
You can look at life as I don'tknow, not necessarily humor
Humor is great but you can alsojust look at it as wonder.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I like that Sense of awe, sense of wonder.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah it's like Wow, that's crazy, you know.
I mean, I've had a number ofexperiences where I was, you
know, nearly killed, and I don'tthink I was premeditated.
But at those moments, insteadof being fearful, I was just in
(30:50):
awe.
You know, I said, wow, this maybe my last three seconds, and I
just like, I just said wow andI just watched the shit go past
and I didn't get killed, andbecause of that the memories are
not traumatic that'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I mean they were.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
They were, uh, you know, falling from great heights
.
I, I'm looking around saying,wow, look at this.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
You know, um, I, I would have, by all rights,
should have been terrified andtraumatized, but you did say in
the beginning that it seems likeyou didn't have a lot of fear
of like kind of scary situations, and I find that interesting
because as a child myself, mymom always used to tell me
(31:38):
you're, you were born scared andyou were scared of everything,
and then like living a lifeovercoming being scared.
So I think that's where I feellike we're on two different
spectrums of where our fear is,and I find that interesting.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I'm not sure you anyone couldn't overcome their
fears.
So if your fears were, I don'tknow what they were.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
They were dumb and I'm not sure anyone couldn't
overcome their fears.
So if your fears were, I don'tknow what they were.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
They were dumb.
She said I was scared of icecream.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
I was like, really Come on.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
What you think it was genetic.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Where did you get that 100,?
Okay, you know what?
Let's jump in.
I 100% think it was genetic.
I think it came from my mom,who has multiple personalities
and had a very tough life, and Ithink that got embedded into my
cellular tissue and then when Icame into being, it's been an
interesting experience.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
So have you found a way to overcome it, or shepherd
it, or somehow make it an asset?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yes, yes, I will say that I've like I think kind of
like you just jump in, you justpush past the uncomfortable
feeling and you do it.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, I had a this.
This quote keeps coming up.
I read about this dream.
It wasn't mine.
Here's the dream I'm runningaway from.
It's not me, it's the dreamsomeone else's dream.
I'm running away from thisgorilla, this, you know,
tremendous, monstrous gorilla,and it's chasing me and it's
(33:09):
going to kill me.
And at some point I realize Ihave to stop and face it.
And I turn around and as I facethe gorilla, it comes up and it
turns into a man and it says tome you've got to be more
careful about how you expressyourself.
That's interesting so there isthis odd thing that, uh, what
(33:40):
you're?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
most afraid of often isn't what you expect it to be.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I would agree, inhaling liquids is always
something one should be cautiousabout Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Thank you Go to that drink, rachel?
Yeah, I would.
Um, yeah, I would agree withyou the things that maybe I was
afraid of.
I really wasn't and I thinkit's more of the unknown and,
(34:11):
like you said, a stable personand an unstable person.
I grew up in an unstableenvironment, which was
interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
But back to you.
I mean I can't overgeneralize,but I like to generalize and say
that a lot of people who growup in difficult environments,
well it's got to be qualified.
Children who grow up inunstable, unsupportive
environments can get very fuckedup.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
And developmentally warped, yeah, unable to bond or
trust, yeah, and it makes sortof rational sense, but it
doesn't do well and it's veryhard to overcome, if that's your
mindset.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I would agree.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
I would.
I originally felt, you know, Iwas a physicist and a
mountaineer and I, you know allstrong and headstrong and stuff,
not thinking about needing help, I mean whatever.
So Coming to be a therapist waskind of a switch a big switch
(35:16):
and I had to overcome theprejudice not just that people
who needed help were weaker, butthat I was somehow powerful by
being a therapist, and I nowappreciate and I'm serious that
the people who seek help areusually the people who are more
(35:36):
able to move forward.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
You know, it's a kind of like the positive side of
vulnerability.
If you're willing to work withthe stuff you can't solve
instead of walling yourself offfrom it, all the better for you.
Absolutely off from it, all thebetter for you, absolutely so.
I see my role as a therapistsomewhat like a coach.
(36:00):
It's like I mean the coach wordis a little stilted.
I mean you think of a crotch islike an athletic coach, you
know, teaching you how to do itright.
You know I I have a.
Well, the first book I wrote,called the Learning Project,
interviewed people of all agesand asked them how did they get
(36:20):
to where they are and why?
And I interviewed a greatwrestling coach who talked about
what it was what he did and why.
And he worked withdisadvantaged kids from poor,
fucked up backgrounds yeah youknow New York City area.
And he said basically all I'mtrying to do is get them to be
(36:44):
the best that they can be.
I like that you don't have to bea champion, but and he was
famous for achieving that ofelevating people to a higher
level and he was doing it as awrestling coach, a very, you
know, pragmatic, middle-classguy from a whole middle-class
(37:08):
Long Island community.
He was an Olympic wrestler, sohe actually did get to a very
high level, but just listeningto him and he didn't want to
talk to me.
He didn't want to talk toanybody because it was all
philosophy.
He wasn't about philosophy.
Oh, wow he was about dealingwith kids one-on-one, but he got
convinced to speak to mebecause one of his students knew
(37:30):
me.
So it was a wonderfulconversation between a reticent
elder and me who's not awrestler.
So, um, that's a great book.
But you know that whole thelearning process, the therapy
process, the vulnerabilityprocess, the spiritual process,
right, they're all the same.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Right, yeah, that's interesting.
I think that's so interestingso you did kind of mention this
before.
So you have experienced a neardeath situation.
You experienced it withCOVID-19.
How did that impact yourperspective on life and healing
and the work you do now?
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Well, I think it's hard to say.
You know, the mountaineeringexperiences were kind of odd,
right, you don't encounter thosein every case I know.
It's more like an auto accident, so it's a trauma.
It's like how to deal withtrauma.
And then I'm also a grieftherapist for alpinists who've
(38:35):
lost partners.
You know, people whose friendshave died.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
It is interesting because, like from my point of
view, death was either yourpartner's death or the parents
of your partners who've died,but not other climbers who were
dealing with their problems thataren't yours.
So often in dealing with thesepeople it's not that unusual, I
(39:09):
guess, but it sounds funny theconversation never turns to the
trauma.
Oh, wow, it's.
It's all about, you know,stability in life and getting
our feet on the ground and andfinding meaning in what we're
doing.
And then maybe the trauma comesup.
(39:30):
But why bring it up unlessyou've got something that you
can conclude?
I mean, you don't want to justretraumatize yourself.
What do I have to say about youknow, and to think about, like
veterans who not just havetrauma but had horror,
absolutely, and agony, right,why bring it up if you don't
(39:50):
have somewhere better?
You know it's like well, I gothrough the garbage unless you
can't take the garbage out.
So true, I just dig through thegarbage.
So I find myself dealing withpositive things.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
There's going to be an interruption here.
Hold on, that's okay, it's nota problem.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
The teenagers.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Hi teenagers, I think it's interesting that you're
talking about grief and I dowant to ask this question, and
maybe this is not something youhit upon and I apologize if it's
not.
My brother committed suicide acouple of years ago and I
noticed that in the family weall were allowed different
levels of grief.
And have you noticed thatwithin families, kind of like
(40:33):
how some people are allowed togrieve and some are not to the
extent of others, and how wouldyou recommend they deal with
that?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
I can't say because I haven't had direct experience
with families, but myinclination would be just to be
honest and yeah uh, well, meanit's like I do deal with
relationships which are usuallytwo people.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
And my advice is engage.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
And reveal, right, expose, explore and recognize
that, even though you're in anadversarial situation, it could
be all the more meaningful forthat reason.
I like that so often, when thisis both humorous and common,
(41:27):
that I'll deal with arelationship that needs to end.
I mean, people are coming to mewhen the house is on fire right
, right right and my advice isessentially get out of the house
.
Uh, and at that point I'll sayto them now you have a real
relationship with this person,now your relationship with them
is permanent.
Yeah, it's been branded ontoyour soul, right, right, and so
(41:52):
that it may be inappropriate tohate them, or, um, because
they're going to be continuallyeducating you throughout the
rest of your life absolutely asa counter example, but
nevertheless, um, I mean this isthose.
one of the christian ideas ofhell is not that it's where you
(42:14):
go to be punished, but where yougo to see all the crimes you've
committed and takeresponsibility for them they're
going to heaven and they have tolike relive their life like and
(42:35):
they're going through thelessons and I apologize, I can't
remember the name of it thatmovie.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
I did not like that movie.
I watched it at a very youngage and I'm like I don't know
that.
So I tried to be like I'm sosorry I I messed up the dog.
I'm so sorry I yelled at youlike take ownership of my
actions so so that's, you know,like, take ownership of my
actions.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
So that's sort of an answer to your question.
When people are in struggle andtorment, well, this is like
this wrestling coach said to mewhen one of my students is
defeated on the wrestling mat, Idon't go out and pat him on the
back and say it's okay.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I say I wait for him to pull himself together and I
say what is it that we can learnfrom this?
Right?
You know what do we need towork on?
How can we orient ourselves inthis situation so that it's more
positive next time?
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
So, you know, could you do that to a person in
distress?
Could you do it?
Well, see, you can't often doit to somebody who's hostile to
you.
So the question is, you've gotto get rid of the hostility in
order to get to a place.
Well, another story is thisclient who's schizophrenic, who
would always end up in handcuffs.
(43:57):
He would said you know this?
Uh, I threatened some guy whowas threatening me and I said to
him well, maybe he wasn'tthreatening you, maybe he was
feeling threatened, right.
And instead of, uh, grabbinghim by the cuffs and shaking him
the way you do, you should havesaid to him I see you're upset,
(44:20):
can I help you?
You know right.
And then if you reframe thewhole thing as not adversarial,
grief, grief-threatening orviolent, there'll be a whole
different way you can proceedand be perceived.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Because, look, this guy was a schizophrenic.
He always had this dull,threatening.
Look on his face.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
And that didn't help.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
The name of the movie is Defending your Life in case
anyone's interested Defendingyour.
Life.
Meryl Streep sent it.
It came out in 1990.
If you watch the movie andyou're like it's not so bad,
that movie traumatized me, Iwill schedule a session with you
to have a counseling session todiscuss it.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
And there's that Robin Williams movie about the
guy whose wife dies and then hekills himself, or he dies and
she kills himself.
Oh, that's it he dies and shekills herself.
Oh, wow, and then he meets herin hell, because she went to
hell, because she killed herself.
Oh wow, but he abandons heavenand goes to hell To go down with
her.
Yeah, to help her, and it'sfull of wonderful CGI effects of
(45:33):
you know flowers and stuff.
It's a nice.
It's a.
It's a nice movie.
I love anything with RobinWilliams.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
He's amazing.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
So sad story yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
But, but still, anything with him is just the
best.
Um, before I ask you the lastquestion, if anyone is
interested in learning moreabout you, uh, what is the best
place for them to go to?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
well, as you mentioned, the website is big.
It has one front page and thenit has tabs to go to
neuropsychology and mentoringand education, and everything
books.
You have books you have a lotof books on there.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
You've got like everything biofeedback.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
You have a lot, which is amazing so, uh, I mean, the
other thing I have is I have ablog which you can get through
to, the website which is calledmind, strength, balance dot com
and the blog.
They're all long articles andyou could look them up by topic.
Nice, if that helps you,because if depression or
(46:33):
relationships or brain trainingor I don't know what you know,
and ultimately I'll talk topeople for free for 15 minutes
if they sign, up.
So that's it Mind strengthbalance.
Thank you very much Thank youvery much.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
For those listening who feel stuck, whether in their
mental, emotional, spiritualgrowth, what is one simple yet
powerful practice that they canstart today to begin to shift
the reality?
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Oh, that makes that.
That tickles the uh.
The Joker in me takespsychedelics.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
You know they're becoming legal.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
I know, but actually I'm not an I'm not a broad
spectrum encouraging person withpsychedelics.
Um, I think psychedelics aregreat to learn about, but
they're not always.
I mean work, meditate, yeah,that kind of falls on deaf ears
(47:36):
or go into your dreams, but thenpeople don't want to.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Lincoln I need something good.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
Go out for walks that's great advice yeah, go out
for walks go for a walk, getreconnected with the earth, the
electromagnetic field.
Go out for a walk, that's greatadvice.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Like Socrates or somebody said if you have a
problem, go for a walk, and ifyou haven't solved your problem,
go for another walk.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Yeah, go touch grass guys, yeah, yeah, no, I try to
get out every day, every day.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
That's perfect.
That is perfect.
I'm looking outside, I'm like Itry to get out every day.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Every day.
It's perfect In a shine.
That is perfect.
I'm looking outside.
I'm like I see the snow, but Iam trying to get outside more.
That's great, great advice,because when things get too, you
just need to decompress andbreathe.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Some time to think.
You need some time to feel andthink yes.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Absolutely Well, Lincoln.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.