February 9, 2025 • 30 mins
Sadly, the webinar world has gotten pretty stale out there.
Most webinars always seem to follow the same formula:
They hook you with a big promise and then the presenter spends most of the next 90 minutes talking about their case studies, their own background, they give you a couple of tips and it all leads to - wait for it- a sales pitch!
So you're left thinking, "Oh man, that's 90 minutes totally wasted."
But, they don't have to be like this.
I don't want to diss webinars as a medium, because I actually think that, done properly, a lot of good can come if you're doing webinars as part of your marketing.
So what if your own events could be really different?
What if they could be so engaging and interactive that your attendees are leaving feeling energized and inspired?
To help answer that question I've invited gamification and game learning expert Caitlin Johnson onto the show to talk about how you can not only make your next webinar more engaging - but turn it into an epic adventure!
So if you're ready to create an addictive, epic webinar in 2025 - listen up!
Resources:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caitlin Johnson (00:06):
While you are the subject matter expert in
these webinars, it canunfortunately be the incident of
where we see ourselves as thesage on the stage and we become
a talking head.
But we need to engage theaudience.
I think about some of the mostengaging webinars I've been on
and they've provided opportunityfor me to think and to connect
(00:30):
with who else has joined.
If I can connect with two orthree people outside of this
webinar after the fact, I feellike huge value.
So create opportunities forpeople to network and connect
with each other at the verybeginning.
Brad Powell (00:50):
Welcome to the Standout Business Show, where
it's all about making a biggerdifference by doing business
differently.
I'm Brad Powell, your StandoutBusiness Coach, and on our show
today we're talking about howyou could be using gamification
to create an addictive and epicwebinar.
So here's the thing the webinarworld is getting pretty stale
(01:14):
out there.
Most webinars, as you probablyknow, they seem to always follow
this same formula they hook youwith this big promise, this
same formula, they hook you withthis big promise, and then the
presenter spends most of thetime of the next 90 minutes
talking about their case studies, their own background.
They give you a couple of tipsand it all leads to wait for it,
(01:37):
a sales pitch and come and buymy thing, and so you're left
thinking, well, oh man, that's90 minutes totally wasted and
they don't have to be like this.
Like, I don't want to disswebinars as a medium, because I
actually think that, doneproperly and done with really
good back and forth engagementwith the participants, this
(01:59):
experiential learningopportunity is huge and a lot of
good can come from this.
Experiential learningopportunity is huge and a lot of
good can come from this, and alot of good can come if you're
doing webinars or any kind ofmaster class as part of your
marketing.
So what if your own eventscould be really different?
What if they could be superengaging and interactive so much
(02:21):
that your attendees are leavingfeeling like they really got
something, they're inspired,they're energized.
To help answer how to do this,I've invited gamification and
game learning expert, caitlinJohnson, onto the show to talk
about how you can not only makeyour next webinar more engaging,
but turn it into an epicadventure.
(02:42):
Imagine that.
So Caitlin is founder and leadconsultant of Bold Bird
Consulting.
Her background is ingamification, change management
and leadership development, andfor the past 15 years, she's
impacted over 72,000 globalleaders.
So if you're ready to create anaddictive epic webinar 2025,
(03:06):
stay tuned.
And with that let's start theshow.
I just want to say, before weget started, that this interview
with Caitlin gave me so muchgreat information, and the
reason that I got so much out ofit is because later this month,
I'm doing my own masterclasswebinar and I am going to
(03:30):
integrate many of the thingsmaybe all of the stuff that
Caitlin shared in this episodeinto my own webinar, so that
it's going to be more engagingand, hopefully, more of an epic
adventure.
So I encourage you all to joinme on February 26th at 12 pm
(03:53):
Eastern Time on the MakeCoaching your Marketing
Masterclass.
You, as somebody who is aconsultant or a coach or have
some form of expert business,you are already doing lots of
things in your normal day to daywhere you are sharing your
expertise and you are in yourzone of genius and you are
(04:13):
communicating.
Whether you're a guest on apodcast or you're doing a
presentation or you're simplyhaving a meeting with a client
or a prospect.
During those moments, you canbe recording and documenting
exactly what you're doing, andall of that makes for great
content.
(04:33):
So what I'm going to share ishow you can develop a very
simple system for not creatingcontent but actually documenting
the moments where you areabsolutely at your best and
turning that into an archivethat people can go and explore
(04:53):
and binge.
So join me.
This is a free masterclass.
It is February 26, 12 pmEastern Time.
Just go toawesomevideomakerscom, forward
slash blueprint or you can finda link in the show notes and
I'll see you there.
And now back to the show.
(05:13):
Caitlin, welcome to the show.
Caitlin Johnson (05:20):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me, and,
gosh, I love the tee up of howcan we make webinars just more
adventurous, more inspiring andfun, and I'm here for it.
I'm here to share some of theideas that you can incorporate
really simply into your webinars.
Brad Powell (05:36):
Yeah well, I am a huge believer in all forms of
experiential education,experiential learning, All forms
of experiential education,experiential learning.
Caitlin Johnson (05:50):
I'm a big believer that people actually do
learn best by doing Absolutely,I agree.
Brad Powell (05:56):
And possibly they learn worst by sitting in front
of PowerPoint.
Caitlin Johnson (05:57):
Nothing's worse Like, especially if you think
too about self-paced trainings,and there's a lot of them.
The drop-off rate of these areupwards to 96%.
They just don't hook us andkeep us engaged as we're moving
along.
Yeah.
Brad Powell (06:11):
Yeah, and so, given that most of the professional
community seem addicted to thisvery static form of education
transfer, like come in here, sitdown and we're going to present
and it feels like history classin sixth grade or something
(06:34):
it's like.
Caitlin Johnson (06:35):
Oh no how do I get out of here?
Brad Powell (06:37):
Right, yeah, you're absolutely right the idea of
not only making it more engaging, but making it more fun and
almost like we're on a journeywe have a destination and there
are hills and valleys andchallenges to meet and overcome
along the way, so that as we goalong, just like if you were
(06:58):
actually playing a real game,there are rewards and there are
things make happen so that whileyou're doing it, not only are
you learning something andgetting experience, but you're
actually feeling good and maybeeven on an internal way, you
know, becoming a better, morecapable person, which is part of
the puzzle.
So talk in a big picture way howjust the whole concept of game
(07:24):
learning and gamification canapply to education and learning.
Caitlin Johnson (07:28):
Yeah, it's a great question and you're right.
I think we've been doinglearning and transferring of
knowledge in the same way as weremember growing up in sixth
grade, and so therefore, that'swhat we then do and we replicate
.
But there's a better way, amore fun way of being able to
engage with our audiences.
So I've got a lot of differentstrategies that you can apply
(07:50):
into your own learning, but Iwant you to start with the
psychology behind how we preferto play games.
So first I want to tell youthere are four different ways
that we prefer to play games andspecifically video games.
Everything that I referencecomes from a video game
standpoint and background, andthere's a gentleman by the name
(08:10):
of Richard Bartle who is aBritish researcher and professor
who in 1996, and really in theworld of video games, 1996 is
quite a while ago, but in 1996,he found that there are four
main ways that we prefer to playgames.
When you keep these differentplayer types in mind, then you
(08:32):
can start to think about whatgame mechanics or tactics could
you apply to support learning.
The first one is what he callsa killer it's not my favorite
word, I prefer to call it adominator.
These players are the ones thatwant to highly compete.
They want to be the first onthe leaderboards.
If you were to do a timedactivity where it's hey, in less
(08:57):
than 30 seconds or in oneminute, do X, y and Z to apply
the learnings that we tried, thedominators are going to be the
ones that get it done first.
The second game player type isan achiever.
They like to collect all theexperiences along the way, the
different badges.
They would love if there's acompletion badge at the end of
(09:19):
your training or your webinar sothat they could then post on
social to say, hey, I just spentthis time learning this skill
and here's my badge to prove it.
The third player type is anexplorer.
These are the ones individualswho are there to take in all the
information that you're sharing, but they also want to push the
buttons.
They want to go down rabbitholes.
(09:39):
They want to see what else ispossible.
They want to see what else ispossible.
They might ask you the toughquestions or even just have
questions, but as a facilitatoror a webinar host, you haven't
built in time for your audienceto ask questions, so that's
always key here.
The fourth player type is asocializer or a connector.
(10:02):
They prefer to play games withother people.
So if you think aboutleveraging your chat feature in
whatever platform, whether it'sZoom or Teams or whatever the
case may be, they're looking toconnect with other people.
So first, there are those fourpsychological dynamics of how we
prefer to play games.
Now we could make this ascience project, brad, and like
(10:25):
totally geek out onto well, whatare all the right tactics to
inspire all four of those playertypes, and that is what I hope
people aspire to be.
But let's just talk reallysimply of some ideas that you
can engage your audience, thatmaybe you're not fully utilizing
, and I would also say don'tovercomplicate it.
(10:47):
And here's what I mean by that.
Zoom, in particular, offers alot of engagement functionality.
One of which I've been testingout a little bit more and then
have opted not to use is theannotate function.
So annotate allows for all ofyour participants to be able to
pick a stamp and then stamp onthe screen, and so you can
(11:11):
create like a four by four gridand say all right, hey, we just
learned about XYZ concept.
What would you do as a resultof it?
Pick which box right and thenthey can click on the screen.
It's a really coolfunctionality, but here's why I
don't use it.
Not everybody is savvy when itcomes to technology.
(11:31):
So even if you have a here'show to use annotate slide, which
I've given instructions on howto find it, how to use it, I
usually find two to three peoplewho can't for the life of them
find this button and then theyfeel left out.
So now I just disengaged thatperson.
So, while it's a coolfunctionality, I use it
(11:54):
sparingly or if I know myaudience is savvy with the
technology.
Some of my favorite go-tostrategies is to have a welcome
slide that just says share,where you're calling in from
type in your LinkedIn profilecode so that we can connect with
each other.
(12:15):
Because while you are thesubject matter expert in these
webinars, it can unfortunatelybe the incident of where we see
ourselves as the sage on thestage and we become a talking
head.
But we need to engage theaudience.
I think about some of the mostengaging webinars I've been on
(12:36):
and they've provided opportunityfor me to think and to connect
with who else has joined.
If I can connect with two orthree people outside of this
webinar after the fact, I feellike huge value has been had, so
create opportunities for peopleto network and connect with
(12:57):
each other at the very beginning.
So I'll pause there.
I'm saying so many great things.
I'd love to get your thoughts.
Brad Powell (13:04):
Yeah, well, first of all, I'm just going to go
back to these four basic thingsthe killer, slash, dominator and
the achiever, the explorer andthe social connector.
Yes, and what's interesting?
For when I hear each one ofthose, I go well, and I think
this is true for lots of people.
Well, there's a part of me inall of those.
Caitlin Johnson (13:24):
Oh, yes, each one of those, I go well.
Brad Powell (13:25):
I, and I think this is true for lots of people.
Well, there's a part of me inall of those.
Oh yes, I know, like I, I usedto be, when I was growing up, a
huge.
I never got into video games,but I was big into board games.
Like used to play risk, used toplay all these I mean I can
list them all off there like Ihad a whole like closet stacked.
Oh, yeah, and I would play themfor hours with my friends and I
(13:48):
was very competitive.
Caitlin Johnson (13:53):
So there's no friends in card games with you,
right?
Brad Powell (13:57):
That's right, and people would look at me and go
man, you are so cutthroat and Igo.
yeah, but we're just playing agame here, this is the idea me
go, man, you are so cutthroatand I go, yeah, but we're just
playing a game here.
You know this idea and uh, butin addition to that, you know
like, certainly, for in thecontext of a webinar, when I do
somebody else's event, I am alsothere to connect with the other
people who are there.
It's a big reason to go.
And, just like what you justsaid, if you come away and you
(14:21):
have made a couple ofconnections, even like two, of
new people who you've met whoseem interesting, that alone has
made going to that event quitevaluable.
And yes, of course, you knowthe more exploration there is.
You know, sort of if there'ssomething in there that makes me
think critically aboutsomething or get an insight that
(14:41):
I didn't get before, or allowsme to explore something about
the work that I do, you know,and how I do it, you know, and
all of that.
It's really good learning.
So, all of those together makefor a great combination.
Caitlin Johnson (14:54):
A hundred percent yes.
And then, when we think aboutexploring so simple ways to be
able to engage your audience,again, you're wanting to
transfer knowledge so that theycan also apply it.
There's been a lot of trainingswhere I've gone through, or
webinars where I've gone through.
I'm like, well, that's a reallygreat idea, but I didn't have
the time to really deep dive andthink about how to apply it
(15:18):
into my world.
So then it's like, oh, that's anice idea.
What happens after the webinaris over?
Brad, we've got like 17 otherthings and 47 emails and there
goes the information right.
So intentionally creatingmoments to say, now, what would
you do?
Right, here's the problem thatwe're looking to address.
Here are some solutions that me, as a subject matter expert,
(15:40):
are applying.
Now, how would you apply thatinto your space?
And then here's one of myfavorite chat prompts.
What I'd like for you to do isgo to the chat, don't press
enter, yet Type in your response.
And when I say go, then pressenter.
So this gives everybody achance to pause, because
(16:02):
nothing's more uncomfortableespecially as a host or an
attendee when the facilitatorsays type in the chat what your
thoughts are.
And then it's crickets.
Brad Powell (16:11):
It's crickets Right , right, right.
Caitlin Johnson (16:13):
But again, like virtually, you haven't given
somebody enough time to thinkabout what their response could
even be.
So you give them the time.
I'm going to give you about 30seconds.
You could even pull in adigital timer onto your screen.
There's some great apps forthat.
Or you could just say hey, I'vegot my phone, I'm going to you
(16:33):
know, in 30 seconds, I'll checkback with you, type in your
response and when I say go,press enter and it's this chat
blast.
And so then all of a sudden,everyone's curious.
What it also does is it doesn'tinfluence other attendees to see
, like, well, what did they say?
And oh yeah, that's a good idea, right?
So you're getting uniqueanswers.
(16:56):
And then you create time to say, okay, let's all look at the
chat and see what we've all said.
And then you pick a coupleattendees to expand on.
You know, I see what you wrotethere.
Can you tell me more about whatyour thoughts are?
This again creates connectionwith the audience to be able to
understand well, how are otherpeople thinking about this and
(17:19):
what other ideas can I learnfrom the attendees?
I find that with 15 years offacilitation of in-person and
virtual, people almost learnmore from each other than they
do from you as the subjectmatter expert.
Brad Powell (17:35):
Right, exactly, it's through the application
right.
Yeah, I find that when you'reworking with a group, that's
actually the beauty of groupeducation is because they help
each other.
There's a really great book outthere called the Art of
Possibility by Ben and RosamundZander.
Ben Zander was the I don't knowif he still is because he's
(17:59):
getting on in age but he was theconductor for the Boston
Philharmonic Orchestra.
Caitlin Johnson (18:03):
Oh, wow.
Brad Powell (18:04):
And his wife is a therapist and they wrote this
terrific book together.
But he tells a story in thereabout going to Cuba.
The chapter is called Learningfrom Every Chair.
Caitlin Johnson (18:19):
Interesting.
Oh, I get it.
The orchestra pun Took me aminute Orchestra reference.
Brad Powell (18:25):
And so, anyway, he had a trip with this youth
orchestra that went to Cuba toplay alongside a Cuban youth
orchestra and somehow, beforethe arrival of this event that
(18:49):
they were going to do together,the music that the Cubans were
going to play that was beingbrought, never made it to them,
and so they hadn't learned thepiece that they were going to
play together.
Okay, that could be problematic, yeah right.
It was like, oh, now what do wedo?
And so, anyway, he had the twoorchestras get together and each
instrument taught theircorresponding instrument how to
do the piece.
Caitlin Johnson (19:09):
Oh, love that.
That's how they did it.
Brad Powell (19:10):
So the orchestra just completely intermingled and
and did that all together.
And to me I took that like backin the day when I was an
outdoor educator and my role wasI was actually the director of
the program but our medium waswe'd go out in these open rowing
sailing boats and 10 people onboard.
Each person had an oar.
(19:31):
We did a lot of rowing andsinging and chanting together.
Caitlin Johnson (19:34):
Okay, that creates some collaboration.
Brad Powell (19:37):
Yeah, but the thing is, and from a leadership point
of view, typically on a boatthere's always like one captain
and the captain is in the backof the boat and the captain
doesn't do anything and thecaptain tells everybody what to
do and they just, you know,whatever the captain says, they
do it.
And I kept introducing thisother way of leading on the
water.
I took this thing of lead fromany chair.
(19:58):
I was like lead from any bench.
Oh cool, yeah, I like that tocollectively do things, which is
really contrary to how boatsare usually operated, especially
hard to run.
Ones like these were.
And it was fascinatingexperimentation to see what the
(20:23):
group would do as a dynamic.
And we even did things as faras we wouldn't allow anybody to
talk.
You know, we're just like well,you know we're going to sail
and of course you have to tackthrough the wind and do these
various maneuvers and we'regoing to go from here to there
and it's going to take usprobably an hour and a half to
get there, maybe if we're lucky.
Caitlin Johnson (20:43):
Okay.
Brad Powell (20:44):
And, but nobody can talk the whole way.
Caitlin Johnson (20:48):
Wow, so what did that do?
Brad Powell (20:51):
The next step beyond that is we would actually
blindfold half the crew.
Oh wow, and so half the crewcould say things.
The other half of the crew hadto do things.
Okay, and so you'd have apartner.
And this is again like learnfrom every chair.
It's like here you have apartner and they're your hands,
they're the means by whichthings are going to happen, and
you need to help them verbally.
Caitlin Johnson (21:11):
But you can't actually physically help them.
Brad Powell (21:14):
That's hard, they can't see but oh yeah, it was it
was really fascinating, fun,interesting, you know, unusual
and all kinds of good stuffhappened.
Caitlin Johnson (21:25):
Yeah, that actually reminds me of like a
little mini icebreaker that I'vedone, where you could do this
virtually as well as in person,where you have two people get
together, one person has a shape, some combination of shapes,
and you sit back to back or youknow, virtually you could be in
the same room, just don't showthe other person the picture,
(21:46):
but you have to verbally explainthe shapes and how they connect
and have the other person drawit and it just most always never
matches.
It's very hard to verballyexplain something clearly and
simply to another person to beable to write it but it's a
really great art activity to beable to talk about effective
communication, collaboration,listening Like it's a really
(22:10):
great activity.
Brad Powell (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, all right.
Well, bring us back on trackhere.
Caitlin Johnson (22:18):
Yes, Well, I'm thinking about collaboration
actually, Brad.
So I like to talk aboutcollaboration partners versus
accountability partners.
It's a bit of semantics, right,Accountability seems so heavy.
Right, Accountability seems soheavy.
And there are so many traitslike if you are a facilitator by
trade, you usually do havecontent that you're training.
(22:40):
And then it's the connect withyour accountability partner from
the session so you can continuelearnings.
I like to think of it as acollaboration partner, because
you're both learning togetherand how can you support each
other versus, you know, holdyourself accountable in the way
that we feel that word?
So, collaborating together,post workshop them, connect on
(23:14):
LinkedIn, then it might be hey,connect with somebody
intentionally and collaboratewith them on how they're going
to incorporate the learningsinto their day-to-day and be
each other's support.
And then that's where learningcontinues outside of the
workshop and outside of thesession.
As people continue to applythat information.
Breakout rooms are a greatopportunity as well.
A clear tip if you're going todo breakout rooms is to have the
(23:38):
instructions on the slidebeforehand.
Explain it, and then I love toask the question instead of does
anybody have any questions?
Because, again, like semantics,nobody wants to ask a question.
But I'll ask is there anythingI can clarify before I open the
breakout rooms?
So this gives people a chanceto just say like oh, I'm
(24:00):
actually a little confused and Iget more questions, quite
frankly, as a result of askingis there anything I can clarify
before I open breakout roomsversus are there any questions?
Brad Powell (24:12):
Yeah, good question .
Yeah, it reminds me of thisidea of framing, like before
you're in, you know you'removing to a new piece, a new
activity of some kind theimportance of framing that
activity before you get into theactivity.
Make it clear and when I'mtalking about it's like just
(24:33):
what you said, like are thethings that we need to clarify,
you know, it's basicallycreating a frame like here's the
parameters, here's what's goingto happen, you know, and so on,
so that people are reallyyou're just checking in, so that
everybody knows that they're onthe same, they're on the same
game plan.
Caitlin Johnson (24:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think the overalltrend that I see when you're
trying to incorporate gamifiedmethods of engaging, the idea is
that you engage with youraudience and that you keep
engaging and you re-engage withyour audience because we get so
distracted is being pulled in somany directions.
(25:15):
Whether it's a ping on ourwatch which I don't like using
Apple Watches because I turn allof that functionality off, it's
too distracting but it could bea watch ping, it could be a
phone ping, it could be an emailping, whatever the case may be,
your intent is to engage andre-engage with the audience in
fun and engaging ways.
So I do want to go back tothose four game player types and
give you some ideas on how tospecifically think about each of
(25:38):
those four players.
So when we think about thedominator, you know that killer
personality, super competitive.
If you were to create againthose short, quick little quests
of all, right, you've got 30seconds.
Let's see how many things youcan type in the chat about X, y,
z, topic Ready, go and then letthe 30 seconds pass and see who
(26:03):
pops into the chat For anachiever, calling them out by
name.
They really appreciate therecognition.
They go after badges andcertifications, because they
want the accolades, so you couldfind out like who's
participating in the chat andthen just call them by name to
be able to give that recognitionor have a very simple
(26:26):
certification or badge of honor,so to speak of after attending
the session, the explorers.
So little side quests inside ofthey could be little mini
challenges where you could offerlike after the session, here's
something where you could dive alittle bit deeper.
Or, if you're curious and wantmore information, here's a white
(26:48):
paper on that and you can putit in the chat for future
reading after the session onthat.
And you can put it in the chatfor future reading after the
session.
Bonus material so after thesession's over, and then you
might want to send a thank youemail for attending and hey,
I've got a bonus Sign up for XYZor another additional
opportunity to learn moreinformation.
And then for those connectors,the socializers this is where
(27:11):
those collaboration partnerscome in play.
Anything having to do with thechat to be able to learn from
each other and breakout roomsare really helpful as well.
Brad Powell (27:22):
Yeah, that's great.
It sort of goes with that thingyou were talking about in terms
of I'm going to say some thingsand I want you to respond, but
don't do it right away.
Yes, yeah, wait a minute.
And then the same thing is likeokay, but don't don't do it
right away.
Yes, yeah, and then the samething is like okay, but this is
almost the opposite of that,like now I'm going to say
something and then I'm going togive you 30 seconds or 15
(27:42):
seconds or whatever, and type asmany of these things as you can
go, right, and then it's, thenit's a race.
Caitlin Johnson (27:49):
Think about the mentality too.
Like there's certain like Iwould imagine if you preferred
to play risk growing up, you'dbe like oh yeah, I'm right there
, Like 30 seconds, I'm gonna putin my answer real quick,
Whereas some folks who might bemore the socializing, connecting
, like they may be like you knowwhat, I wanna see what other
people say first and then I'llgo ahead and apply my thoughts.
(28:09):
So there's two different waysto engage with two different
psychologies.
Brad Powell (28:15):
Yeah, absolutely, and critical to be accommodating
to all of them.
Caitlin Johnson (28:22):
For sure?
Brad Powell (28:23):
Yeah, this is really cool, all right, well,
it's interesting.
We're now like the time justwent.
Caitlin Johnson (28:28):
Yes, I know it's a fun topic.
Brad Powell (28:31):
Yeah, it's a great topic.
We could talk for a really longtime, but and there's so much
more If there is another pieceof wisdom that you could share,
as people are thinking, well,these are cool.
Now I'm thinking I'm going toredesign my next presentation to
include some of these.
What would you like to say tothose folks?
Caitlin Johnson (28:51):
You know, I think my biggest takeaway is to
think of yourself as a guide aguide to transfer information.
Make the attendee the hero, sodon't be the sage on the stage
and be the talking head.
Create opportunities for yourattendees to be able to process
and think, which truly makes youwork just a little bit harder
(29:14):
as a presenter, because you needto clarify and simplify your
message in order to make timefor those opportunities for your
audience members to connect andto think.
Brad Powell (29:26):
Yeah, the world of presentations could really gain
from clarifying and simplifying.
Yes, make it shorter, shorteryes, don't put up that slide
with with.
It's just covered with stuff.
Caitlin Johnson (29:40):
It's too much, yeah and then please don't read
it right, because I can read ityeah, I mean, that's the worst.
Brad Powell (29:46):
It's like you just here's all this stuff, let me
just read it to you.
It's like why?
Caitlin Johnson (29:51):
why don't you just send it to me?
That's exactly right.
Brad Powell (29:55):
Well, caitlin, this is terrific stuff.
I'm inspired.
I know that my own nextpresentation is going to be
better as a result of this, sothank you so much for that.
Caitlin Johnson (30:06):
Yeah, thank you for having me, this was fun.
Brad Powell (30:18):
For those of you who are listening at the end, I
just want to remind you that ifyou want to go and get the
entire archive of the standoutbusiness show, just go to
standout business dot show andfind it all there, all the audio
and the video and all thethings that I put in there just
for my listeners.
We go live live every Tuesdayat 11 am Eastern Time.
Until the next time, so long.
While you are the subject matter expert in
these webinars, it canunfortunately be the incident of
where we see ourselves as thesage on the stage and we become
a talking head.
But we need to engage theaudience.
I think about some of the mostengaging webinars I've been on
and they've provided opportunityfor me to think and to connect
(00:30):
with who else has joined.
If I can connect with two orthree people outside of this
webinar after the fact, I feellike huge value.
So create opportunities forpeople to network and connect
with each other at the verybeginning.
Brad Powell (00:50):
Welcome to the Standout Business Show, where
it's all about making a biggerdifference by doing business
differently.
I'm Brad Powell, your StandoutBusiness Coach, and on our show
today we're talking about howyou could be using gamification
to create an addictive and epicwebinar.
So here's the thing the webinarworld is getting pretty stale
(01:14):
out there.
Most webinars, as you probablyknow, they seem to always follow
this same formula they hook youwith this big promise, this
same formula, they hook you withthis big promise, and then the
presenter spends most of thetime of the next 90 minutes
talking about their case studies, their own background.
They give you a couple of tipsand it all leads to wait for it,
(01:37):
a sales pitch and come and buymy thing, and so you're left
thinking, well, oh man, that's90 minutes totally wasted and
they don't have to be like this.
Like, I don't want to disswebinars as a medium, because I
actually think that, doneproperly and done with really
good back and forth engagementwith the participants, this
(01:59):
experiential learningopportunity is huge and a lot of
good can come from this.
Experiential learningopportunity is huge and a lot of
good can come from this, and alot of good can come if you're
doing webinars or any kind ofmaster class as part of your
marketing.
So what if your own eventscould be really different?
What if they could be superengaging and interactive so much
(02:21):
that your attendees are leavingfeeling like they really got
something, they're inspired,they're energized.
To help answer how to do this,I've invited gamification and
game learning expert, caitlinJohnson, onto the show to talk
about how you can not only makeyour next webinar more engaging,
but turn it into an epicadventure.
(02:42):
Imagine that.
So Caitlin is founder and leadconsultant of Bold Bird
Consulting.
Her background is ingamification, change management
and leadership development, andfor the past 15 years, she's
impacted over 72,000 globalleaders.
So if you're ready to create anaddictive epic webinar 2025,
(03:06):
stay tuned.
And with that let's start theshow.
I just want to say, before weget started, that this interview
with Caitlin gave me so muchgreat information, and the
reason that I got so much out ofit is because later this month,
I'm doing my own masterclasswebinar and I am going to
(03:30):
integrate many of the thingsmaybe all of the stuff that
Caitlin shared in this episodeinto my own webinar, so that
it's going to be more engagingand, hopefully, more of an epic
adventure.
So I encourage you all to joinme on February 26th at 12 pm
(03:53):
Eastern Time on the MakeCoaching your Marketing
Masterclass.
You, as somebody who is aconsultant or a coach or have
some form of expert business,you are already doing lots of
things in your normal day to daywhere you are sharing your
expertise and you are in yourzone of genius and you are
(04:13):
communicating.
Whether you're a guest on apodcast or you're doing a
presentation or you're simplyhaving a meeting with a client
or a prospect.
During those moments, you canbe recording and documenting
exactly what you're doing, andall of that makes for great
content.
(04:33):
So what I'm going to share ishow you can develop a very
simple system for not creatingcontent but actually documenting
the moments where you areabsolutely at your best and
turning that into an archivethat people can go and explore
(04:53):
and binge.
So join me.
This is a free masterclass.
It is February 26, 12 pmEastern Time.
Just go toawesomevideomakerscom, forward
slash blueprint or you can finda link in the show notes and
I'll see you there.
And now back to the show.
(05:13):
Caitlin, welcome to the show.
Caitlin Johnson (05:20):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me, and,
gosh, I love the tee up of howcan we make webinars just more
adventurous, more inspiring andfun, and I'm here for it.
I'm here to share some of theideas that you can incorporate
really simply into your webinars.
Brad Powell (05:36):
Yeah well, I am a huge believer in all forms of
experiential education,experiential learning, All forms
of experiential education,experiential learning.
Caitlin Johnson (05:50):
I'm a big believer that people actually do
learn best by doing Absolutely,I agree.
Brad Powell (05:56):
And possibly they learn worst by sitting in front
of PowerPoint.
Caitlin Johnson (05:57):
Nothing's worse Like, especially if you think
too about self-paced trainings,and there's a lot of them.
The drop-off rate of these areupwards to 96%.
They just don't hook us andkeep us engaged as we're moving
along.
Yeah.
Brad Powell (06:11):
Yeah, and so, given that most of the professional
community seem addicted to thisvery static form of education
transfer, like come in here, sitdown and we're going to present
and it feels like history classin sixth grade or something
(06:34):
it's like.
Caitlin Johnson (06:35):
Oh no how do I get out of here?
Brad Powell (06:37):
Right, yeah, you're absolutely right the idea of
not only making it more engaging, but making it more fun and
almost like we're on a journeywe have a destination and there
are hills and valleys andchallenges to meet and overcome
along the way, so that as we goalong, just like if you were
(06:58):
actually playing a real game,there are rewards and there are
things make happen so that whileyou're doing it, not only are
you learning something andgetting experience, but you're
actually feeling good and maybeeven on an internal way, you
know, becoming a better, morecapable person, which is part of
the puzzle.
So talk in a big picture way howjust the whole concept of game
(07:24):
learning and gamification canapply to education and learning.
Caitlin Johnson (07:28):
Yeah, it's a great question and you're right.
I think we've been doinglearning and transferring of
knowledge in the same way as weremember growing up in sixth
grade, and so therefore, that'swhat we then do and we replicate
.
But there's a better way, amore fun way of being able to
engage with our audiences.
So I've got a lot of differentstrategies that you can apply
(07:50):
into your own learning, but Iwant you to start with the
psychology behind how we preferto play games.
So first I want to tell youthere are four different ways
that we prefer to play games andspecifically video games.
Everything that I referencecomes from a video game
standpoint and background, andthere's a gentleman by the name
(08:10):
of Richard Bartle who is aBritish researcher and professor
who in 1996, and really in theworld of video games, 1996 is
quite a while ago, but in 1996,he found that there are four
main ways that we prefer to playgames.
When you keep these differentplayer types in mind, then you
(08:32):
can start to think about whatgame mechanics or tactics could
you apply to support learning.
The first one is what he callsa killer it's not my favorite
word, I prefer to call it adominator.
These players are the ones thatwant to highly compete.
They want to be the first onthe leaderboards.
If you were to do a timedactivity where it's hey, in less
(08:57):
than 30 seconds or in oneminute, do X, y and Z to apply
the learnings that we tried, thedominators are going to be the
ones that get it done first.
The second game player type isan achiever.
They like to collect all theexperiences along the way, the
different badges.
They would love if there's acompletion badge at the end of
(09:19):
your training or your webinar sothat they could then post on
social to say, hey, I just spentthis time learning this skill
and here's my badge to prove it.
The third player type is anexplorer.
These are the ones individualswho are there to take in all the
information that you're sharing, but they also want to push the
buttons.
They want to go down rabbitholes.
(09:39):
They want to see what else ispossible.
They want to see what else ispossible.
They might ask you the toughquestions or even just have
questions, but as a facilitatoror a webinar host, you haven't
built in time for your audienceto ask questions, so that's
always key here.
The fourth player type is asocializer or a connector.
(10:02):
They prefer to play games withother people.
So if you think aboutleveraging your chat feature in
whatever platform, whether it'sZoom or Teams or whatever the
case may be, they're looking toconnect with other people.
So first, there are those fourpsychological dynamics of how we
prefer to play games.
Now we could make this ascience project, brad, and like
(10:25):
totally geek out onto well, whatare all the right tactics to
inspire all four of those playertypes, and that is what I hope
people aspire to be.
But let's just talk reallysimply of some ideas that you
can engage your audience, thatmaybe you're not fully utilizing
, and I would also say don'tovercomplicate it.
(10:47):
And here's what I mean by that.
Zoom, in particular, offers alot of engagement functionality.
One of which I've been testingout a little bit more and then
have opted not to use is theannotate function.
So annotate allows for all ofyour participants to be able to
pick a stamp and then stamp onthe screen, and so you can
(11:11):
create like a four by four gridand say all right, hey, we just
learned about XYZ concept.
What would you do as a resultof it?
Pick which box right and thenthey can click on the screen.
It's a really coolfunctionality, but here's why I
don't use it.
Not everybody is savvy when itcomes to technology.
(11:31):
So even if you have a here'show to use annotate slide, which
I've given instructions on howto find it, how to use it, I
usually find two to three peoplewho can't for the life of them
find this button and then theyfeel left out.
So now I just disengaged thatperson.
So, while it's a coolfunctionality, I use it
(11:54):
sparingly or if I know myaudience is savvy with the
technology.
Some of my favorite go-tostrategies is to have a welcome
slide that just says share,where you're calling in from
type in your LinkedIn profilecode so that we can connect with
each other.
(12:15):
Because while you are thesubject matter expert in these
webinars, it can unfortunatelybe the incident of where we see
ourselves as the sage on thestage and we become a talking
head.
But we need to engage theaudience.
I think about some of the mostengaging webinars I've been on
(12:36):
and they've provided opportunityfor me to think and to connect
with who else has joined.
If I can connect with two orthree people outside of this
webinar after the fact, I feellike huge value has been had, so
create opportunities for peopleto network and connect with
(12:57):
each other at the very beginning.
So I'll pause there.
I'm saying so many great things.
I'd love to get your thoughts.
Brad Powell (13:04):
Yeah, well, first of all, I'm just going to go
back to these four basic thingsthe killer, slash, dominator and
the achiever, the explorer andthe social connector.
Yes, and what's interesting?
For when I hear each one ofthose, I go well, and I think
this is true for lots of people.
Well, there's a part of me inall of those.
Caitlin Johnson (13:24):
Oh, yes, each one of those, I go well.
Brad Powell (13:25):
I, and I think this is true for lots of people.
Well, there's a part of me inall of those.
Oh yes, I know, like I, I usedto be, when I was growing up, a
huge.
I never got into video games,but I was big into board games.
Like used to play risk, used toplay all these I mean I can
list them all off there like Ihad a whole like closet stacked.
Oh, yeah, and I would play themfor hours with my friends and I
(13:48):
was very competitive.
Caitlin Johnson (13:53):
So there's no friends in card games with you,
right?
Brad Powell (13:57):
That's right, and people would look at me and go
man, you are so cutthroat and Igo.
yeah, but we're just playing agame here, this is the idea me
go, man, you are so cutthroatand I go, yeah, but we're just
playing a game here.
You know this idea and uh, butin addition to that, you know
like, certainly, for in thecontext of a webinar, when I do
somebody else's event, I am alsothere to connect with the other
people who are there.
It's a big reason to go.
And, just like what you justsaid, if you come away and you
(14:21):
have made a couple ofconnections, even like two, of
new people who you've met whoseem interesting, that alone has
made going to that event quitevaluable.
And yes, of course, you knowthe more exploration there is.
You know, sort of if there'ssomething in there that makes me
think critically aboutsomething or get an insight that
(14:41):
I didn't get before, or allowsme to explore something about
the work that I do, you know,and how I do it, you know, and
all of that.
It's really good learning.
So, all of those together makefor a great combination.
Caitlin Johnson (14:54):
A hundred percent yes.
And then, when we think aboutexploring so simple ways to be
able to engage your audience,again, you're wanting to
transfer knowledge so that theycan also apply it.
There's been a lot of trainingswhere I've gone through, or
webinars where I've gone through.
I'm like, well, that's a reallygreat idea, but I didn't have
the time to really deep dive andthink about how to apply it
(15:18):
into my world.
So then it's like, oh, that's anice idea.
What happens after the webinaris over?
Brad, we've got like 17 otherthings and 47 emails and there
goes the information right.
So intentionally creatingmoments to say, now, what would
you do?
Right, here's the problem thatwe're looking to address.
Here are some solutions that me, as a subject matter expert,
(15:40):
are applying.
Now, how would you apply thatinto your space?
And then here's one of myfavorite chat prompts.
What I'd like for you to do isgo to the chat, don't press
enter, yet Type in your response.
And when I say go, then pressenter.
So this gives everybody achance to pause, because
(16:02):
nothing's more uncomfortableespecially as a host or an
attendee when the facilitatorsays type in the chat what your
thoughts are.
And then it's crickets.
Brad Powell (16:11):
It's crickets Right , right, right.
Caitlin Johnson (16:13):
But again, like virtually, you haven't given
somebody enough time to thinkabout what their response could
even be.
So you give them the time.
I'm going to give you about 30seconds.
You could even pull in adigital timer onto your screen.
There's some great apps forthat.
Or you could just say hey, I'vegot my phone, I'm going to you
(16:33):
know, in 30 seconds, I'll checkback with you, type in your
response and when I say go,press enter and it's this chat
blast.
And so then all of a sudden,everyone's curious.
What it also does is it doesn'tinfluence other attendees to see
, like, well, what did they say?
And oh yeah, that's a good idea, right?
So you're getting uniqueanswers.
(16:56):
And then you create time to say, okay, let's all look at the
chat and see what we've all said.
And then you pick a coupleattendees to expand on.
You know, I see what you wrotethere.
Can you tell me more about whatyour thoughts are?
This again creates connectionwith the audience to be able to
understand well, how are otherpeople thinking about this and
(17:19):
what other ideas can I learnfrom the attendees?
I find that with 15 years offacilitation of in-person and
virtual, people almost learnmore from each other than they
do from you as the subjectmatter expert.
Brad Powell (17:35):
Right, exactly, it's through the application
right.
Yeah, I find that when you'reworking with a group, that's
actually the beauty of groupeducation is because they help
each other.
There's a really great book outthere called the Art of
Possibility by Ben and RosamundZander.
Ben Zander was the I don't knowif he still is because he's
(17:59):
getting on in age but he was theconductor for the Boston
Philharmonic Orchestra.
Caitlin Johnson (18:03):
Oh, wow.
Brad Powell (18:04):
And his wife is a therapist and they wrote this
terrific book together.
But he tells a story in thereabout going to Cuba.
The chapter is called Learningfrom Every Chair.
Caitlin Johnson (18:19):
Interesting.
Oh, I get it.
The orchestra pun Took me aminute Orchestra reference.
Brad Powell (18:25):
And so, anyway, he had a trip with this youth
orchestra that went to Cuba toplay alongside a Cuban youth
orchestra and somehow, beforethe arrival of this event that
(18:49):
they were going to do together,the music that the Cubans were
going to play that was beingbrought, never made it to them,
and so they hadn't learned thepiece that they were going to
play together.
Okay, that could be problematic, yeah right.
It was like, oh, now what do wedo?
And so, anyway, he had the twoorchestras get together and each
instrument taught theircorresponding instrument how to
do the piece.
Caitlin Johnson (19:09):
Oh, love that.
That's how they did it.
Brad Powell (19:10):
So the orchestra just completely intermingled and
and did that all together.
And to me I took that like backin the day when I was an
outdoor educator and my role wasI was actually the director of
the program but our medium waswe'd go out in these open rowing
sailing boats and 10 people onboard.
Each person had an oar.
(19:31):
We did a lot of rowing andsinging and chanting together.
Caitlin Johnson (19:34):
Okay, that creates some collaboration.
Brad Powell (19:37):
Yeah, but the thing is, and from a leadership point
of view, typically on a boatthere's always like one captain
and the captain is in the backof the boat and the captain
doesn't do anything and thecaptain tells everybody what to
do and they just, you know,whatever the captain says, they
do it.
And I kept introducing thisother way of leading on the
water.
I took this thing of lead fromany chair.
(19:58):
I was like lead from any bench.
Oh cool, yeah, I like that tocollectively do things, which is
really contrary to how boatsare usually operated, especially
hard to run.
Ones like these were.
And it was fascinatingexperimentation to see what the
(20:23):
group would do as a dynamic.
And we even did things as faras we wouldn't allow anybody to
talk.
You know, we're just like well,you know we're going to sail
and of course you have to tackthrough the wind and do these
various maneuvers and we'regoing to go from here to there
and it's going to take usprobably an hour and a half to
get there, maybe if we're lucky.
Caitlin Johnson (20:43):
Okay.
Brad Powell (20:44):
And, but nobody can talk the whole way.
Caitlin Johnson (20:48):
Wow, so what did that do?
Brad Powell (20:51):
The next step beyond that is we would actually
blindfold half the crew.
Oh wow, and so half the crewcould say things.
The other half of the crew hadto do things.
Okay, and so you'd have apartner.
And this is again like learnfrom every chair.
It's like here you have apartner and they're your hands,
they're the means by whichthings are going to happen, and
you need to help them verbally.
Caitlin Johnson (21:11):
But you can't actually physically help them.
Brad Powell (21:14):
That's hard, they can't see but oh yeah, it was it
was really fascinating, fun,interesting, you know, unusual
and all kinds of good stuffhappened.
Caitlin Johnson (21:25):
Yeah, that actually reminds me of like a
little mini icebreaker that I'vedone, where you could do this
virtually as well as in person,where you have two people get
together, one person has a shape, some combination of shapes,
and you sit back to back or youknow, virtually you could be in
the same room, just don't showthe other person the picture,
(21:46):
but you have to verbally explainthe shapes and how they connect
and have the other person drawit and it just most always never
matches.
It's very hard to verballyexplain something clearly and
simply to another person to beable to write it but it's a
really great art activity to beable to talk about effective
communication, collaboration,listening Like it's a really
(22:10):
great activity.
Brad Powell (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, all right.
Well, bring us back on trackhere.
Caitlin Johnson (22:18):
Yes, Well, I'm thinking about collaboration
actually, Brad.
So I like to talk aboutcollaboration partners versus
accountability partners.
It's a bit of semantics, right,Accountability seems so heavy.
Right, Accountability seems soheavy.
And there are so many traitslike if you are a facilitator by
trade, you usually do havecontent that you're training.
(22:40):
And then it's the connect withyour accountability partner from
the session so you can continuelearnings.
I like to think of it as acollaboration partner, because
you're both learning togetherand how can you support each
other versus, you know, holdyourself accountable in the way
that we feel that word?
So, collaborating together,post workshop them, connect on
(23:14):
LinkedIn, then it might be hey,connect with somebody
intentionally and collaboratewith them on how they're going
to incorporate the learningsinto their day-to-day and be
each other's support.
And then that's where learningcontinues outside of the
workshop and outside of thesession.
As people continue to applythat information.
Breakout rooms are a greatopportunity as well.
A clear tip if you're going todo breakout rooms is to have the
(23:38):
instructions on the slidebeforehand.
Explain it, and then I love toask the question instead of does
anybody have any questions?
Because, again, like semantics,nobody wants to ask a question.
But I'll ask is there anythingI can clarify before I open the
breakout rooms?
So this gives people a chanceto just say like oh, I'm
(24:00):
actually a little confused and Iget more questions, quite
frankly, as a result of askingis there anything I can clarify
before I open breakout roomsversus are there any questions?
Brad Powell (24:12):
Yeah, good question .
Yeah, it reminds me of thisidea of framing, like before
you're in, you know you'removing to a new piece, a new
activity of some kind theimportance of framing that
activity before you get into theactivity.
Make it clear and when I'mtalking about it's like just
(24:33):
what you said, like are thethings that we need to clarify,
you know, it's basicallycreating a frame like here's the
parameters, here's what's goingto happen, you know, and so on,
so that people are reallyyou're just checking in, so that
everybody knows that they're onthe same, they're on the same
game plan.
Caitlin Johnson (24:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think the overalltrend that I see when you're
trying to incorporate gamifiedmethods of engaging, the idea is
that you engage with youraudience and that you keep
engaging and you re-engage withyour audience because we get so
distracted is being pulled in somany directions.
(25:15):
Whether it's a ping on ourwatch which I don't like using
Apple Watches because I turn allof that functionality off, it's
too distracting but it could bea watch ping, it could be a
phone ping, it could be an emailping, whatever the case may be,
your intent is to engage andre-engage with the audience in
fun and engaging ways.
So I do want to go back tothose four game player types and
give you some ideas on how tospecifically think about each of
(25:38):
those four players.
So when we think about thedominator, you know that killer
personality, super competitive.
If you were to create againthose short, quick little quests
of all, right, you've got 30seconds.
Let's see how many things youcan type in the chat about X, y,
z, topic Ready, go and then letthe 30 seconds pass and see who
(26:03):
pops into the chat For anachiever, calling them out by
name.
They really appreciate therecognition.
They go after badges andcertifications, because they
want the accolades, so you couldfind out like who's
participating in the chat andthen just call them by name to
be able to give that recognitionor have a very simple
(26:26):
certification or badge of honor,so to speak of after attending
the session, the explorers.
So little side quests inside ofthey could be little mini
challenges where you could offerlike after the session, here's
something where you could dive alittle bit deeper.
Or, if you're curious and wantmore information, here's a white
(26:48):
paper on that and you can putit in the chat for future
reading after the session onthat.
And you can put it in the chatfor future reading after the
session.
Bonus material so after thesession's over, and then you
might want to send a thank youemail for attending and hey,
I've got a bonus Sign up for XYZor another additional
opportunity to learn moreinformation.
And then for those connectors,the socializers this is where
(27:11):
those collaboration partnerscome in play.
Anything having to do with thechat to be able to learn from
each other and breakout roomsare really helpful as well.
Brad Powell (27:22):
Yeah, that's great.
It sort of goes with that thingyou were talking about in terms
of I'm going to say some thingsand I want you to respond, but
don't do it right away.
Yes, yeah, wait a minute.
And then the same thing is likeokay, but don't don't do it
right away.
Yes, yeah, and then the samething is like okay, but this is
almost the opposite of that,like now I'm going to say
something and then I'm going togive you 30 seconds or 15
(27:42):
seconds or whatever, and type asmany of these things as you can
go, right, and then it's, thenit's a race.
Caitlin Johnson (27:49):
Think about the mentality too.
Like there's certain like Iwould imagine if you preferred
to play risk growing up, you'dbe like oh yeah, I'm right there
, Like 30 seconds, I'm gonna putin my answer real quick,
Whereas some folks who might bemore the socializing, connecting
, like they may be like you knowwhat, I wanna see what other
people say first and then I'llgo ahead and apply my thoughts.
(28:09):
So there's two different waysto engage with two different
psychologies.
Brad Powell (28:15):
Yeah, absolutely, and critical to be accommodating
to all of them.
Caitlin Johnson (28:22):
For sure?
Brad Powell (28:23):
Yeah, this is really cool, all right, well,
it's interesting.
We're now like the time justwent.
Caitlin Johnson (28:28):
Yes, I know it's a fun topic.
Brad Powell (28:31):
Yeah, it's a great topic.
We could talk for a really longtime, but and there's so much
more If there is another pieceof wisdom that you could share,
as people are thinking, well,these are cool.
Now I'm thinking I'm going toredesign my next presentation to
include some of these.
What would you like to say tothose folks?
Caitlin Johnson (28:51):
You know, I think my biggest takeaway is to
think of yourself as a guide aguide to transfer information.
Make the attendee the hero, sodon't be the sage on the stage
and be the talking head.
Create opportunities for yourattendees to be able to process
and think, which truly makes youwork just a little bit harder
(29:14):
as a presenter, because you needto clarify and simplify your
message in order to make timefor those opportunities for your
audience members to connect andto think.
Brad Powell (29:26):
Yeah, the world of presentations could really gain
from clarifying and simplifying.
Yes, make it shorter, shorteryes, don't put up that slide
with with.
It's just covered with stuff.
Caitlin Johnson (29:40):
It's too much, yeah and then please don't read
it right, because I can read ityeah, I mean, that's the worst.
Brad Powell (29:46):
It's like you just here's all this stuff, let me
just read it to you.
It's like why?
Caitlin Johnson (29:51):
why don't you just send it to me?
That's exactly right.
Brad Powell (29:55):
Well, caitlin, this is terrific stuff.
I'm inspired.
I know that my own nextpresentation is going to be
better as a result of this, sothank you so much for that.
Caitlin Johnson (30:06):
Yeah, thank you for having me, this was fun.
Brad Powell (30:18):
For those of you who are listening at the end, I
just want to remind you that ifyou want to go and get the
entire archive of the standoutbusiness show, just go to
standout business dot show andfind it all there, all the audio
and the video and all thethings that I put in there just
for my listeners.
We go live live every Tuesdayat 11 am Eastern Time.
Until the next time, so long.
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