February 1, 2023 • 31 mins
The next episode is devoted to the one of the happiest countries in the world – Denmark.
Peter Kofler – Danish entrepreneur is sharing his experience and insights on how to make business in his country.
We will discuss:
- Why Denmark is a good choice to start your international expansion
- Is it easy to reach decision making persons in Denmark
- The Danish communication culture
- Is it worth taking part in Danish exhibitions
- The digitization in Denmark
- And much more…
Don't miss the next episode, subscribe to the Start Global Insights podcast on all major platforms and YouTube.
Speakers LinkedIn Profiles:
Guest, Peter Kofler https://www.linkedin.com/in/electrominds/
Host, Dmytro Shvets https://www.linkedin.com/in/dshvets/
Please, give us your feedback on Apple podcasts or write to the email: podcast@start-global.biz
This podcast is made in a partnership with Do Business With Ukrainians, the platform of Ukrainian business teams you can work with now Work with verified teams.
Access the best, trustworthy small and medium businesses. You may request cooperation with Ukrainian business here: https://www.dobizwithua.com/
Create your international expansion strategy with Start Global, your guide to foreign markets. https://www.start-global.biz/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Dmytro Shvets, your host at The Start Global Insights, where I interview experts
(00:11):
in different countries about local business secrets and international expansion experience.
Today my guest is Peter Koffler from Denmark, he is a Danish entrepreneur, founder of an
education and consulting house KPI Communication and the chairman of the Danish Entrepreneurs
Association.
He develops and supports entrepreneurship in Denmark for more than 20 years already
(00:34):
and consults companies of various segments from small and medium to quite large corporations.
And in addition to that, Peter is also heavily involved in supporting Ukrainian refugees and
recently launched a business incubator where we together develop a program that will teach
Ukrainians in Denmark how to launch own business.
(00:56):
Hi Peter, welcome to the show.
Hi, nice to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Peter, before our conversation I was reading a lot about Denmark and saw that it is quite
highly ranked in various indices.
For example, Denmark is number one in trading across borders index by doing business index
(01:19):
of World Bank.
It is number two in the World Happiness Report and number three in European Innovation Index.
And in addition to that, it is ranked as number one country in the non-corruption index.
So it looks like it is a perfect country for a happy innovative expert without corruption.
(01:41):
So let's get deeper in that.
Imagine that, for example, a software development company or candy producer from Ukraine would
like to expand its sales to Denmark.
What steps would you suggest?
Well, you need to penetrate the market and let's say you are a candy company, I think
(02:01):
a key word that listeners need to understand and reflect upon is trust.
So in Denmark everything we do is centered around trust.
And if you come from the outside, you need to penetrate and understand this kind of trust.
(02:23):
And some of the trust means that you need a lot of governmental approval, especially
if it's candy, you know, something that children put in their mouth, preferably in huge volumes.
And this means that you will need to interact with the government authorities.
(02:45):
And I think that being Ukrainian, this already takes energy out of you.
But this is where, you know, doing business in Denmark index favorizes Denmark because
we have authorities that are very, very flexible, communicative.
It's very transparent and I think also a key issue to understand working in Denmark is
(03:10):
the degree of digitalization we have here.
So EU every year publishes what they call the DC index.
So who's the most digital country?
And I'm not going to say and I seriously mean that sometimes I don't understand why we're
number two in the happiness index, but I'm trying to make you understand that there are
(03:34):
some areas where Denmark is special.
So it means that you can almost do everything digital.
You probably heard about Estonia, but Denmark is number one, as I said.
So it means that even, you know, I got divorced six years ago.
We did that digitally.
It took, you know, 20 seconds.
(03:55):
The second thing is that you don't know, need to know the right people because you're part
of this circle.
Then you're sort of like in the trust sphere.
It thought you don't have to.
And this is maybe centered around corruption that, you know, it's not that you need to
(04:16):
know the right people or to get into this.
You need to pay money to this guy.
So it looks like everything is very transparent.
In general and comparatively, we are super transparent and you need to rewind to the
fact that we are just six million people in Denmark.
So we are a little bit like the small village.
(04:40):
We also, you know, have a huge public sector, which means that we go to the same school.
All of us.
It's not that, you know, you have the rich kids and the poor kids or whatever.
I think you guys have a different logic to trust.
You know, there are two ways you can say, you know, give a little trust, get a little
(05:02):
trust.
This is the kind of living rule we have in Denmark.
But you know, there's also the other side of the coin, which is, you know, trust is
good but control is better.
And I think that and, you know, this kind of compensation will be very generalized because
I'm talking about millions of Ukrainians and millions of Danish people.
(05:25):
We recently got made the podcast with Romania and my guest said that they have the lowest
trust index in Europe, in Romania.
And I actually agreed with him that we have even lower.
So this is a huge problem in Ukraine to trust each other in business and in society.
(05:48):
And I think that this is a heritage of Soviet Union time.
So when you are watched from all the sides and if you are not like in control of what
you are saying, then you can end up in Siberia very quickly.
This is like our history.
So we are changing and I'm hoping that in Denmark it will influence on our guys there
(06:12):
and girls.
So it will be better.
But still it is an issue.
That's a very good question.
But I think also to add to your story, I think the propaganda that you have been suffered
from that you could never trust messages from the state.
And you know, there were always motives behind it.
I think that was very clear during COVID.
(06:32):
We are a lot more like lemmings.
So when the government says go get a vaccine, we get the highest vaccine rate in the world.
Trust is also about that you pay your tax.
Trust is also about that you take a job if there is a job.
So this has been challenging Denmark.
And since 2001, we've actually led a lot of the discussions in Europe around having, you
(06:55):
know, a harsh immigration policy.
But what we've seen with Ukrainians is a totally different story.
And I said that we're training Ukrainian entrepreneurs.
What are we approving with this program is that refugees are re-perceived as being a
(07:16):
liability for society to an asset for society.
And if we can do that with the Ukrainians, and I must say, I think it's easier because
your women are amazing.
So there's a lot of opportunities in the crossroad between entrepreneurship and being refugee.
But I think the solidarity that comes with the trust have really, really proven itself
(07:42):
with the Ukrainians.
And you know, we are, I think that Denmark is a very, very good bridgehead to the rest
of Europe because we have, it's a small, limited area where you can get your business model
(08:05):
right, your product market fit right, tested in Denmark.
If it works in Denmark, it's going to work elsewhere and the degree of digitization means
that no matter if you're B2B or B2C or whatever B2 government, you can do a lot of the sales
(08:28):
and fulfillment online.
We're used to this.
So this is where you have like a very frictionless economy, but you need to, you know, penetrate
the first hurdle, which means that you need to be legally here and make sure that you
(08:49):
enter the trust circle.
How would you describe the business culture in Denmark?
The trust issue understood.
What else should be considered?
One thing that differentiates us from a lot of other countries like Sweden, France, Germany,
it's two things.
We've got very flat hierarchies and a very informal tone.
(09:14):
And this is both internally and externally.
No, there's this cultural trait that everyone is equal here.
So if you are successful or whatever, people will still remind you that you're just, you
know, one of us and talk to you as, you know, a colleague or whatever.
(09:37):
And I also see that when I get approached by Ukrainian, it's more formal.
It's more humble.
It's more, you know, wrapped into formalities.
And I think this is unnecessary in Denmark because, as I said, we were in the same school.
We were running around in diapers in kindergarten next to each other.
(09:59):
So hey, I'm me, you are you.
And I think that being direct and informal is really key.
And I have to say that you guys, once you lay down this formal facade, we actually have
a good cultural fit.
(10:20):
We have this, you know, dark humor, sarcasm.
All this is kind of like, you know, in some cultures, when I say something sarcastic,
they're like paralyzed.
And I have to say, hey, what's a joke?
It was your and it kills everything, you know, but I really, I really feel that that we are
(10:42):
on the same bandwidth here.
So, you know, let's we might as well have fun and be friends while we make money here.
So it looks like it is one of the best countries to sell something.
Yeah.
So you will be perceived as a person first and then as a salesman.
How do you think if a company won't be established in Denmark, so at least for the first steps,
(11:10):
you have to trade with your country, how to start the sales from abroad?
What would be, at least in B2B, what could you think as a first step to be done?
So there are two things to it.
One thing is that we are one of the highest country with English skills as a second language.
(11:35):
But it's there's also a lot of organizations that are still, you know, their corporate
language is still Danish.
So it varies.
You know, if you're into a niche and people are used to purchase internationally, English
is a non-issue.
(11:57):
If you are more, you know, broadly targeting SMBs or whatever, I think that this is a path
you need to choose because I'm often surprised how many Danish douchebags we actually have
that, you know, we talk English at our office, but we didn't do that until that's not because
(12:20):
of all the Ukrainians we have, it's because we have Finnish people there.
And it took surprisingly a long time.
And still, I have to say during lunch, hey, speak English, guys, right.
And I also want to say that there is this distinction between B2B and B2C is I think
in Denmark, you should think that everything you do is business to people.
(12:45):
So you know, when I was in business school, unfortunately, 25 years ago, we were taught
that there's there are huge, huge business difference between those two or even business
to government.
But I think a lot of it is around, you know, there's a people, there's a person in the
(13:07):
other end.
And if the person feels that, you know, it's the same conversion funnel that I experienced
when I buy my new hairbrush or whatever, it's the same kind of trust.
It's, you know, it's not I was taught that business to business is rational, functionalistic,
(13:27):
data parameters, a lot of bullets.
I don't think that's true, at least for Denmark.
When you are selling online, yes, you are generating the slits.
I think that in most cases, companies that will enter, they will prefer to start from
B2B in any case.
So you will find dealers or distributors or you will approach some supermarket chain to
(13:50):
sell your goods.
So how easy it is to find this decision making persons, then to contact them in which way?
How would you approach this issue?
Where to find people and how to contact them to get this first conversation to establish
(14:10):
this first trust?
Someone in Denmark plays by the book, right?
And if you are a little bit pushy and you say, hey, why don't I call the purchasing
director directly?
Because people will not do that.
And you know, you can often find his or her phone number online or you can call, you know,
(14:37):
the central number and ask for the purchasing director.
So I think that, you know, a Danish company would be hesitant to do that because, oh,
that's not maybe how we do things.
So I think that also if you bring in a little bit of, you know, your way or, you know, being,
(15:00):
you know, creative and not afraid of, you know, pushing boundaries, I think that you
can, you know, pick up pace that can overtake a lot of your local competitors.
I didn't have any experience of sale selling to Denmark, unfortunately yet, but I had it
in Sweden and in Germany, for example, and it is almost impossible to reach a purchasing
(15:25):
director by a secretary if you are calling the office telephone.
So he's always out or is not reachable or who you are, why are you calling, especially
in Germany?
So in Sweden, more polite way, but still no reach.
So you think this would work in Denmark more easily?
I think it would work, but you need to think the touch point, you know, maybe you've sent
(15:52):
some materials before.
So hey, yes, maybe I want, and this material was catchy, but also what we do, and this
is just, you know, one of the small tricks we buy and it's very cheap.
We buy a Swedish phone number, a Skype number, we buy a German sky number, Skype number,
(16:14):
and they can even call back, then it's Skype calling and everyone have Skype installed
with the same login so people can pick up the phone.
It's simple.
So yes, I think it's possible to be much more direct.
I also suggest to my clients to dig a bit deeper about the potential clients before
(16:37):
the call, to know the potential pains that could be there and understand what would be
valuable for them.
In some way, it's really simple, but a lot of people forget about it.
It's the old story that you don't buy a drilling machine, you buy a hole in the wall, right?
So what is the problem, what is the pain, and if you can find a pain that keeps the
(17:03):
purchasing director awake at night, then you have a chance.
And I think that you need to be self-confident too, because you really need to make a person
believe that you can save him a night's sleep.
Speaking about the social media, what is the culture of contacting about the business issues?
(17:28):
Is it LinkedIn only or is it okay to contact people in Facebook, for example?
I think that people will not consider Facebook as their private sphere, whereas LinkedIn
is the business sphere.
And to be honest, in Denmark, it's been ruled illegal to contact people because it's GDPR.
(17:57):
It's a direct inquiry that you haven't opt in for.
If you send in mails or all this, but I don't care.
But this is also the correctness of how we do things.
(18:18):
But I think to be honest, there is a lot of goodwill right now towards Ukrainians.
And I think that you guys would be silly not to ride on that wave.
I'm not trying to be cynical because you need business, and I think also we need to convince
(18:42):
you that Ukraine's future will be in the West forever.
And that's also our responsibility.
If we start building business relations and work together, then you guys will flourish
together with us.
So I think that is part of the story.
It's obviously not the whole story because if I get fired because I bought the wrong
(19:06):
supplier, I cannot justify saying that.
But I helped the Ukrainian, right?
But I really think and this is also how you can use the Internet or social media.
You can reach out and say, hey, I'm a Ukrainian business.
(19:27):
We want to achieve this and that.
And I also think that you guys are just, you know, what we see on news.
We think that you guys are awesome people.
You're amazing people.
It sort of like gives a positive image of Ukrainians.
We want to help people.
(19:48):
And this is what our whole society is about.
And this is why we pay the highest tax in the world.
By the way, we just we're back to number one and highest tax rate.
This is number one that I'm not too proud of.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is I've read about that.
Talking about coming back to sales.
(20:08):
Are there any culture of events online or offline where you could find your potential
clients or sell?
Yes, definitely.
But you know, 10 years ago, events were something that you paid for and a lot of money.
It was, you know, maybe you would pay two thousand dollars for a two day event and you
(20:32):
would go there.
And now a lot of salespeople figured out, hey, we make free events and then we, you
know, push stuff down people's throats.
So one, you really need to have something that is interesting.
You cannot just, you know, unless you have, you know, a unique product in the world.
But I assume most people don't otherwise they would not be listening to this.
(20:56):
Right.
So this is this is one thing.
And then it's it's colonized space.
So how do you make it attractive for people to attend?
You can get people to attend, but you need the bright store.
(21:17):
And when we evaluate, because we do a lot of this, it's and I think you can reflect
on this yourself.
So when you get an invitation, you see the speaker and evaluate the speaker before you
evaluate the topic.
Right.
I went to a day to David Lynch event.
I love his films, but it was about meditation and I don't care about meditation.
(21:40):
I just wanted to see David Lynch, right.
The movie director.
So this is kind of like get the right people, get the knowledgeable people.
And you know, we also have if you go on the on the SMB market, there's this saying in
Denmark that there is a certain percentage of people that cannot say no in the phone.
(22:05):
So there is a market for tip for outbound telemarketing as well.
It's pushy.
And you know, then you also have the challenge if people are always competing for the people
that cannot say no, then the competitors will call and they cannot say no, either.
Right.
(22:25):
But a lot of businesses actually make their customer base this way.
And then, you know, there's the there's the golden nugget.
And that is really partnering and cherry picking their database or network or what have you.
(22:46):
I know the ambassador's wife in Denmark.
She's doing a lot for female entrepreneurs, bringing them in, showing their products.
There's a lot of design, textile industry.
So and she's been here for years.
She knows a lot of people.
(23:06):
And so so the story goes.
And as I said, Denmark is a small village.
So within, you know, two links, you can reach every person in Denmark.
You just need to find the right two links.
About the exhibitions, are they still working as lead generation or sales channels?
(23:27):
I think it's very costly and it is often long term that you that you have to go there.
Sometimes you maintain your brand by showing your flag and we need a bigger exhibition
stall and the competition.
So which is bigger, Samsung or Huawei kind of discussion.
(23:50):
I think for, you know, most companies, if you want ROI on your effort, you will have
a lot of operational cost and your contact price will be very high.
So depending on, you know, the contract value and your ability to, you know, massage afterwards
because, you know, the exchange at an exhibition is is short.
(24:15):
On the other hand, we do have exhibitions now where, you know, they they set up or at
least it's easier to convince them to set up, you know, the Ukrainian corner.
So you know, again, we want to help you.
Sometimes you need to tell us how we can help.
So you know, and we're not always, you know, seeing we play by the books, right.
(24:43):
And if someone says, hey, we have five companies within this industry.
Do you have, you know, an available stall?
They will probably say, yes, that's the coolest thing on the world.
We have many companies in food production.
How easy it is to get on the supermarket shelves in the supermarket chains and how what is
(25:03):
the procedure, how to get there?
Because in Ukraine, for example, we have a saying that if you made it to get into a supermarket
chain in Ukraine, then no other markets will be a problem for you.
I think that, first of all, food security is absolutely key in Denmark.
So you really, really need to live up to everything.
(25:25):
It's not impossible.
And as I said, authorities are quick.
But this is absolutely key, not only because this is a prerequisite to go to any reseller
in Denmark, but it's also, you know, legally, it's a risk.
(25:47):
So make sure you get this right.
You understand what it means.
And then I think that you need to not aim for because if you go to the big supermarket
chain, I can Google that quite easy.
Maybe you're lucky you can call the purchasing director and, you know, he needs to see that
(26:10):
your project or your product works.
So don't use the big bullet to start with.
Practice, make sure that it works.
You know, you can make it into a few specialized stores.
A lot of people use the airport because, you know, it has it's a good place to test towards
(26:34):
different audiences.
But I see too many entrepreneurs that say, okay, if we can sell this to eBay or if we
can sell this to NASA or if we could sell this to, you know, Tesco.
Yes.
And I love the thinking shoot for, you know, the stars or at least moonshots.
(26:57):
But make sure that you take the risk out of at least the market risk out of the hands
of the big chains.
It's better to start with smaller shops, prove the idea and then to go to supermarket chains
showing that you have this data.
And you know, maybe you find a different distribution model because everything is changing.
(27:24):
And yes, supermarkets are critical.
But you know, when we have a birthday in the family, I buy, you know, the gifts online,
the cake online, the bread.
You know, it's still the birthday is offline.
But you know, who knows in a few years we'll be celebrating online.
(27:48):
If you're lucky and you got this contact of buyer or purchasing director and then you
are into negotiations, what are the common features of Danish business and negotiations?
I think it's a little bit back to the point that you want to work with people you like.
(28:10):
So you know, be likable, take away the facade.
You guys are super cool.
We laugh at the same things.
And I want to have a meeting with someone I can laugh with.
And you know, that's probably how it is.
I think you can be straightforward.
And you know, people always complain that it takes a long time and decision time.
(28:33):
So I think compared to, you know, other markets, our decision time is fast.
It's better to get a no today than a maybe.
And then, you know, you might end up with a yes in too long time.
And you know, then your export strategy have changed eight times.
(28:58):
So I think by any means, you should be straightforward and but, you know, of course, realistic.
And how direct are these answers in terms of Danish business?
Is it like yes is yes and no is no?
Yes, yes.
And I want to say that when I do business in Sweden, I am very frustrated because they're
(29:23):
so shy of conflicts.
So I don't ever get the the truth.
And I don't I can't interpret trade if is it worth going for the next meeting or do
they do it because they are polite and they said they would take this meeting.
And I think that that tells more about Denmark that, you know, people are more straightforward.
(29:49):
And I think in general, they stick to the word.
But I think one piece of advice is that when I done business with some Ukrainians, you
know, we know that we will get the money.
An agreement is an agreement.
And sometimes you even have a contract.
But then it's very pushy.
(30:09):
Hey, I delivered.
I can't see the money in my bank account.
And then I'm like, OK, normally we have 30 days.
Take it easy.
Right.
And the next day, hey, where's the money?
And I'm like, don't you trust me?
You need to play the game of trust.
Right.
And if you show distrust to me, I will not trust you either.
(30:33):
Right.
And I have all intentions to pay you.
I just pay.
And that's company policy.
It takes 30 days.
And that's it.
It was really interesting to talk with you.
And now I'm feeling that I need to pay attention of my clients, Denmark in any case, because
it looks so attractive to enter.
(30:55):
So the only one thing that is not very good is the number of clients.
So you are only six million.
Yes, exactly.
But in all other points of view, it is very attractive to enter.
And I think that we need to dig deeper.
So thank you for sharing your experience.
Thank you.
I'm pleased to be here and happy to help with whatever we're in this together.
Hi, I'm Dmytro Shvets, your host at The Start Global Insights, where I interview experts
(00:11):
in different countries about local business secrets and international expansion experience.
Today my guest is Peter Koffler from Denmark, he is a Danish entrepreneur, founder of an
education and consulting house KPI Communication and the chairman of the Danish Entrepreneurs
Association.
He develops and supports entrepreneurship in Denmark for more than 20 years already
(00:34):
and consults companies of various segments from small and medium to quite large corporations.
And in addition to that, Peter is also heavily involved in supporting Ukrainian refugees and
recently launched a business incubator where we together develop a program that will teach
Ukrainians in Denmark how to launch own business.
(00:56):
Hi Peter, welcome to the show.
Hi, nice to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Peter, before our conversation I was reading a lot about Denmark and saw that it is quite
highly ranked in various indices.
For example, Denmark is number one in trading across borders index by doing business index
(01:19):
of World Bank.
It is number two in the World Happiness Report and number three in European Innovation Index.
And in addition to that, it is ranked as number one country in the non-corruption index.
So it looks like it is a perfect country for a happy innovative expert without corruption.
(01:41):
So let's get deeper in that.
Imagine that, for example, a software development company or candy producer from Ukraine would
like to expand its sales to Denmark.
What steps would you suggest?
Well, you need to penetrate the market and let's say you are a candy company, I think
(02:01):
a key word that listeners need to understand and reflect upon is trust.
So in Denmark everything we do is centered around trust.
And if you come from the outside, you need to penetrate and understand this kind of trust.
(02:23):
And some of the trust means that you need a lot of governmental approval, especially
if it's candy, you know, something that children put in their mouth, preferably in huge volumes.
And this means that you will need to interact with the government authorities.
(02:45):
And I think that being Ukrainian, this already takes energy out of you.
But this is where, you know, doing business in Denmark index favorizes Denmark because
we have authorities that are very, very flexible, communicative.
It's very transparent and I think also a key issue to understand working in Denmark is
(03:10):
the degree of digitalization we have here.
So EU every year publishes what they call the DC index.
So who's the most digital country?
And I'm not going to say and I seriously mean that sometimes I don't understand why we're
number two in the happiness index, but I'm trying to make you understand that there are
(03:34):
some areas where Denmark is special.
So it means that you can almost do everything digital.
You probably heard about Estonia, but Denmark is number one, as I said.
So it means that even, you know, I got divorced six years ago.
We did that digitally.
It took, you know, 20 seconds.
(03:55):
The second thing is that you don't know, need to know the right people because you're part
of this circle.
Then you're sort of like in the trust sphere.
It thought you don't have to.
And this is maybe centered around corruption that, you know, it's not that you need to
(04:16):
know the right people or to get into this.
You need to pay money to this guy.
So it looks like everything is very transparent.
In general and comparatively, we are super transparent and you need to rewind to the
fact that we are just six million people in Denmark.
So we are a little bit like the small village.
(04:40):
We also, you know, have a huge public sector, which means that we go to the same school.
All of us.
It's not that, you know, you have the rich kids and the poor kids or whatever.
I think you guys have a different logic to trust.
You know, there are two ways you can say, you know, give a little trust, get a little
(05:02):
trust.
This is the kind of living rule we have in Denmark.
But you know, there's also the other side of the coin, which is, you know, trust is
good but control is better.
And I think that and, you know, this kind of compensation will be very generalized because
I'm talking about millions of Ukrainians and millions of Danish people.
(05:25):
We recently got made the podcast with Romania and my guest said that they have the lowest
trust index in Europe, in Romania.
And I actually agreed with him that we have even lower.
So this is a huge problem in Ukraine to trust each other in business and in society.
(05:48):
And I think that this is a heritage of Soviet Union time.
So when you are watched from all the sides and if you are not like in control of what
you are saying, then you can end up in Siberia very quickly.
This is like our history.
So we are changing and I'm hoping that in Denmark it will influence on our guys there
(06:12):
and girls.
So it will be better.
But still it is an issue.
That's a very good question.
But I think also to add to your story, I think the propaganda that you have been suffered
from that you could never trust messages from the state.
And you know, there were always motives behind it.
I think that was very clear during COVID.
(06:32):
We are a lot more like lemmings.
So when the government says go get a vaccine, we get the highest vaccine rate in the world.
Trust is also about that you pay your tax.
Trust is also about that you take a job if there is a job.
So this has been challenging Denmark.
And since 2001, we've actually led a lot of the discussions in Europe around having, you
(06:55):
know, a harsh immigration policy.
But what we've seen with Ukrainians is a totally different story.
And I said that we're training Ukrainian entrepreneurs.
What are we approving with this program is that refugees are re-perceived as being a
(07:16):
liability for society to an asset for society.
And if we can do that with the Ukrainians, and I must say, I think it's easier because
your women are amazing.
So there's a lot of opportunities in the crossroad between entrepreneurship and being refugee.
But I think the solidarity that comes with the trust have really, really proven itself
(07:42):
with the Ukrainians.
And you know, we are, I think that Denmark is a very, very good bridgehead to the rest
of Europe because we have, it's a small, limited area where you can get your business model
(08:05):
right, your product market fit right, tested in Denmark.
If it works in Denmark, it's going to work elsewhere and the degree of digitization means
that no matter if you're B2B or B2C or whatever B2 government, you can do a lot of the sales
(08:28):
and fulfillment online.
We're used to this.
So this is where you have like a very frictionless economy, but you need to, you know, penetrate
the first hurdle, which means that you need to be legally here and make sure that you
(08:49):
enter the trust circle.
How would you describe the business culture in Denmark?
The trust issue understood.
What else should be considered?
One thing that differentiates us from a lot of other countries like Sweden, France, Germany,
it's two things.
We've got very flat hierarchies and a very informal tone.
(09:14):
And this is both internally and externally.
No, there's this cultural trait that everyone is equal here.
So if you are successful or whatever, people will still remind you that you're just, you
know, one of us and talk to you as, you know, a colleague or whatever.
(09:37):
And I also see that when I get approached by Ukrainian, it's more formal.
It's more humble.
It's more, you know, wrapped into formalities.
And I think this is unnecessary in Denmark because, as I said, we were in the same school.
We were running around in diapers in kindergarten next to each other.
(09:59):
So hey, I'm me, you are you.
And I think that being direct and informal is really key.
And I have to say that you guys, once you lay down this formal facade, we actually have
a good cultural fit.
(10:20):
We have this, you know, dark humor, sarcasm.
All this is kind of like, you know, in some cultures, when I say something sarcastic,
they're like paralyzed.
And I have to say, hey, what's a joke?
It was your and it kills everything, you know, but I really, I really feel that that we are
(10:42):
on the same bandwidth here.
So, you know, let's we might as well have fun and be friends while we make money here.
So it looks like it is one of the best countries to sell something.
Yeah.
So you will be perceived as a person first and then as a salesman.
How do you think if a company won't be established in Denmark, so at least for the first steps,
(11:10):
you have to trade with your country, how to start the sales from abroad?
What would be, at least in B2B, what could you think as a first step to be done?
So there are two things to it.
One thing is that we are one of the highest country with English skills as a second language.
(11:35):
But it's there's also a lot of organizations that are still, you know, their corporate
language is still Danish.
So it varies.
You know, if you're into a niche and people are used to purchase internationally, English
is a non-issue.
(11:57):
If you are more, you know, broadly targeting SMBs or whatever, I think that this is a path
you need to choose because I'm often surprised how many Danish douchebags we actually have
that, you know, we talk English at our office, but we didn't do that until that's not because
(12:20):
of all the Ukrainians we have, it's because we have Finnish people there.
And it took surprisingly a long time.
And still, I have to say during lunch, hey, speak English, guys, right.
And I also want to say that there is this distinction between B2B and B2C is I think
in Denmark, you should think that everything you do is business to people.
(12:45):
So you know, when I was in business school, unfortunately, 25 years ago, we were taught
that there's there are huge, huge business difference between those two or even business
to government.
But I think a lot of it is around, you know, there's a people, there's a person in the
(13:07):
other end.
And if the person feels that, you know, it's the same conversion funnel that I experienced
when I buy my new hairbrush or whatever, it's the same kind of trust.
It's, you know, it's not I was taught that business to business is rational, functionalistic,
(13:27):
data parameters, a lot of bullets.
I don't think that's true, at least for Denmark.
When you are selling online, yes, you are generating the slits.
I think that in most cases, companies that will enter, they will prefer to start from
B2B in any case.
So you will find dealers or distributors or you will approach some supermarket chain to
(13:50):
sell your goods.
So how easy it is to find this decision making persons, then to contact them in which way?
How would you approach this issue?
Where to find people and how to contact them to get this first conversation to establish
(14:10):
this first trust?
Someone in Denmark plays by the book, right?
And if you are a little bit pushy and you say, hey, why don't I call the purchasing
director directly?
Because people will not do that.
And you know, you can often find his or her phone number online or you can call, you know,
(14:37):
the central number and ask for the purchasing director.
So I think that, you know, a Danish company would be hesitant to do that because, oh,
that's not maybe how we do things.
So I think that also if you bring in a little bit of, you know, your way or, you know, being,
(15:00):
you know, creative and not afraid of, you know, pushing boundaries, I think that you
can, you know, pick up pace that can overtake a lot of your local competitors.
I didn't have any experience of sale selling to Denmark, unfortunately yet, but I had it
in Sweden and in Germany, for example, and it is almost impossible to reach a purchasing
(15:25):
director by a secretary if you are calling the office telephone.
So he's always out or is not reachable or who you are, why are you calling, especially
in Germany?
So in Sweden, more polite way, but still no reach.
So you think this would work in Denmark more easily?
I think it would work, but you need to think the touch point, you know, maybe you've sent
(15:52):
some materials before.
So hey, yes, maybe I want, and this material was catchy, but also what we do, and this
is just, you know, one of the small tricks we buy and it's very cheap.
We buy a Swedish phone number, a Skype number, we buy a German sky number, Skype number,
(16:14):
and they can even call back, then it's Skype calling and everyone have Skype installed
with the same login so people can pick up the phone.
It's simple.
So yes, I think it's possible to be much more direct.
I also suggest to my clients to dig a bit deeper about the potential clients before
(16:37):
the call, to know the potential pains that could be there and understand what would be
valuable for them.
In some way, it's really simple, but a lot of people forget about it.
It's the old story that you don't buy a drilling machine, you buy a hole in the wall, right?
So what is the problem, what is the pain, and if you can find a pain that keeps the
(17:03):
purchasing director awake at night, then you have a chance.
And I think that you need to be self-confident too, because you really need to make a person
believe that you can save him a night's sleep.
Speaking about the social media, what is the culture of contacting about the business issues?
(17:28):
Is it LinkedIn only or is it okay to contact people in Facebook, for example?
I think that people will not consider Facebook as their private sphere, whereas LinkedIn
is the business sphere.
And to be honest, in Denmark, it's been ruled illegal to contact people because it's GDPR.
(17:57):
It's a direct inquiry that you haven't opt in for.
If you send in mails or all this, but I don't care.
But this is also the correctness of how we do things.
(18:18):
But I think to be honest, there is a lot of goodwill right now towards Ukrainians.
And I think that you guys would be silly not to ride on that wave.
I'm not trying to be cynical because you need business, and I think also we need to convince
(18:42):
you that Ukraine's future will be in the West forever.
And that's also our responsibility.
If we start building business relations and work together, then you guys will flourish
together with us.
So I think that is part of the story.
It's obviously not the whole story because if I get fired because I bought the wrong
(19:06):
supplier, I cannot justify saying that.
But I helped the Ukrainian, right?
But I really think and this is also how you can use the Internet or social media.
You can reach out and say, hey, I'm a Ukrainian business.
(19:27):
We want to achieve this and that.
And I also think that you guys are just, you know, what we see on news.
We think that you guys are awesome people.
You're amazing people.
It sort of like gives a positive image of Ukrainians.
We want to help people.
(19:48):
And this is what our whole society is about.
And this is why we pay the highest tax in the world.
By the way, we just we're back to number one and highest tax rate.
This is number one that I'm not too proud of.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is I've read about that.
Talking about coming back to sales.
(20:08):
Are there any culture of events online or offline where you could find your potential
clients or sell?
Yes, definitely.
But you know, 10 years ago, events were something that you paid for and a lot of money.
It was, you know, maybe you would pay two thousand dollars for a two day event and you
(20:32):
would go there.
And now a lot of salespeople figured out, hey, we make free events and then we, you
know, push stuff down people's throats.
So one, you really need to have something that is interesting.
You cannot just, you know, unless you have, you know, a unique product in the world.
But I assume most people don't otherwise they would not be listening to this.
(20:56):
Right.
So this is this is one thing.
And then it's it's colonized space.
So how do you make it attractive for people to attend?
You can get people to attend, but you need the bright store.
(21:17):
And when we evaluate, because we do a lot of this, it's and I think you can reflect
on this yourself.
So when you get an invitation, you see the speaker and evaluate the speaker before you
evaluate the topic.
Right.
I went to a day to David Lynch event.
I love his films, but it was about meditation and I don't care about meditation.
(21:40):
I just wanted to see David Lynch, right.
The movie director.
So this is kind of like get the right people, get the knowledgeable people.
And you know, we also have if you go on the on the SMB market, there's this saying in
Denmark that there is a certain percentage of people that cannot say no in the phone.
(22:05):
So there is a market for tip for outbound telemarketing as well.
It's pushy.
And you know, then you also have the challenge if people are always competing for the people
that cannot say no, then the competitors will call and they cannot say no, either.
Right.
(22:25):
But a lot of businesses actually make their customer base this way.
And then, you know, there's the there's the golden nugget.
And that is really partnering and cherry picking their database or network or what have you.
(22:46):
I know the ambassador's wife in Denmark.
She's doing a lot for female entrepreneurs, bringing them in, showing their products.
There's a lot of design, textile industry.
So and she's been here for years.
She knows a lot of people.
(23:06):
And so so the story goes.
And as I said, Denmark is a small village.
So within, you know, two links, you can reach every person in Denmark.
You just need to find the right two links.
About the exhibitions, are they still working as lead generation or sales channels?
(23:27):
I think it's very costly and it is often long term that you that you have to go there.
Sometimes you maintain your brand by showing your flag and we need a bigger exhibition
stall and the competition.
So which is bigger, Samsung or Huawei kind of discussion.
(23:50):
I think for, you know, most companies, if you want ROI on your effort, you will have
a lot of operational cost and your contact price will be very high.
So depending on, you know, the contract value and your ability to, you know, massage afterwards
because, you know, the exchange at an exhibition is is short.
(24:15):
On the other hand, we do have exhibitions now where, you know, they they set up or at
least it's easier to convince them to set up, you know, the Ukrainian corner.
So you know, again, we want to help you.
Sometimes you need to tell us how we can help.
So you know, and we're not always, you know, seeing we play by the books, right.
(24:43):
And if someone says, hey, we have five companies within this industry.
Do you have, you know, an available stall?
They will probably say, yes, that's the coolest thing on the world.
We have many companies in food production.
How easy it is to get on the supermarket shelves in the supermarket chains and how what is
(25:03):
the procedure, how to get there?
Because in Ukraine, for example, we have a saying that if you made it to get into a supermarket
chain in Ukraine, then no other markets will be a problem for you.
I think that, first of all, food security is absolutely key in Denmark.
So you really, really need to live up to everything.
(25:25):
It's not impossible.
And as I said, authorities are quick.
But this is absolutely key, not only because this is a prerequisite to go to any reseller
in Denmark, but it's also, you know, legally, it's a risk.
(25:47):
So make sure you get this right.
You understand what it means.
And then I think that you need to not aim for because if you go to the big supermarket
chain, I can Google that quite easy.
Maybe you're lucky you can call the purchasing director and, you know, he needs to see that
(26:10):
your project or your product works.
So don't use the big bullet to start with.
Practice, make sure that it works.
You know, you can make it into a few specialized stores.
A lot of people use the airport because, you know, it has it's a good place to test towards
(26:34):
different audiences.
But I see too many entrepreneurs that say, okay, if we can sell this to eBay or if we
can sell this to NASA or if we could sell this to, you know, Tesco.
Yes.
And I love the thinking shoot for, you know, the stars or at least moonshots.
(26:57):
But make sure that you take the risk out of at least the market risk out of the hands
of the big chains.
It's better to start with smaller shops, prove the idea and then to go to supermarket chains
showing that you have this data.
And you know, maybe you find a different distribution model because everything is changing.
(27:24):
And yes, supermarkets are critical.
But you know, when we have a birthday in the family, I buy, you know, the gifts online,
the cake online, the bread.
You know, it's still the birthday is offline.
But you know, who knows in a few years we'll be celebrating online.
(27:48):
If you're lucky and you got this contact of buyer or purchasing director and then you
are into negotiations, what are the common features of Danish business and negotiations?
I think it's a little bit back to the point that you want to work with people you like.
(28:10):
So you know, be likable, take away the facade.
You guys are super cool.
We laugh at the same things.
And I want to have a meeting with someone I can laugh with.
And you know, that's probably how it is.
I think you can be straightforward.
And you know, people always complain that it takes a long time and decision time.
(28:33):
So I think compared to, you know, other markets, our decision time is fast.
It's better to get a no today than a maybe.
And then, you know, you might end up with a yes in too long time.
And you know, then your export strategy have changed eight times.
(28:58):
So I think by any means, you should be straightforward and but, you know, of course, realistic.
And how direct are these answers in terms of Danish business?
Is it like yes is yes and no is no?
Yes, yes.
And I want to say that when I do business in Sweden, I am very frustrated because they're
(29:23):
so shy of conflicts.
So I don't ever get the the truth.
And I don't I can't interpret trade if is it worth going for the next meeting or do
they do it because they are polite and they said they would take this meeting.
And I think that that tells more about Denmark that, you know, people are more straightforward.
(29:49):
And I think in general, they stick to the word.
But I think one piece of advice is that when I done business with some Ukrainians, you
know, we know that we will get the money.
An agreement is an agreement.
And sometimes you even have a contract.
But then it's very pushy.
(30:09):
Hey, I delivered.
I can't see the money in my bank account.
And then I'm like, OK, normally we have 30 days.
Take it easy.
Right.
And the next day, hey, where's the money?
And I'm like, don't you trust me?
You need to play the game of trust.
Right.
And if you show distrust to me, I will not trust you either.
(30:33):
Right.
And I have all intentions to pay you.
I just pay.
And that's company policy.
It takes 30 days.
And that's it.
It was really interesting to talk with you.
And now I'm feeling that I need to pay attention of my clients, Denmark in any case, because
it looks so attractive to enter.
(30:55):
So the only one thing that is not very good is the number of clients.
So you are only six million.
Yes, exactly.
But in all other points of view, it is very attractive to enter.
And I think that we need to dig deeper.
So thank you for sharing your experience.
Thank you.
I'm pleased to be here and happy to help with whatever we're in this together.
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