October 19, 2023 • 55 mins
Listen in as I share my personal experiences and engage in a profound conversation with Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad on the intricacies of Black intimacy and relationships. Together, we unravel the layers of emotional intelligence, cultural conditioning, and personal experiences that shape our interactions with our partners.
Have you ever wondered how your beliefs affect your relationships? Together with Dr. Jeannelle, we probe into the deeply ingrained teachings of Christianity within the black community and their impact on how we perceive and handle intimacy. We also delve into the historical echoes of slavery that still hinder our ability to foster healthy relationships today and explore how understanding our commitment levels can lead us to more fulfilling relationships. Finally, we dissect the pressing issue of mental health within our communities and its connection to our relationships.
About Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad:
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhammad is a Psychotherapist, Licensed Family Therapist, and SC State Supervisor with more than 20 years of experience in relationship and life coaching. She is a graduate of the University of Maryland and Capella University. Dr. Jeannelle is a board member of Charleston Hope; an organization that increases access to mental and behavioral health programs in Title I schools to enhance student well-being. As an adjunct professor at The Citadel in Charleston, SC, and Practicum Supervisor for Capella and Liberty Universities, she focuses on building a new generation of culturally competent clinical counselors. Dr. Jeannelle was a Foundation Fellow of Roper St. Francis Hospital. She has been an entrepreneur for the majority of her life and utilizes these skills to coach fellow entrepreneurs who aspire to develop and grow legacies.
You can find more information about her book INTO-ME-SEE here: DrJeannelle.com/get-the-book/
Show Credits:
Richard Dodds (Host/Producer): @Doddsism
Show Music: @IAmTheDjBlue
Podcast Website: StillTalkingBlack.com
Still Talking Black is a production of Crowned Culture Media LLC. All rights reserved.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Richard Dodds (00:00):
This is Still Talking Black, a show where we
discuss issues affectingblackness from a black point of
view.
I'm your host, Richard Dodds.
On today's show, I'm joined byDr.
Jeannelle, and we talk aboutintimacy Not just romantic
intimacy, but intimacy inregards to friendships and other
situations, because there's alot of times that we talk about
(00:22):
intimacy is involved and it'snot just a romantic relationship
, it's getting to know somebodyas well.
We explore different ways thatblack history and black culture
and the traumas that we've all,like as black people, have faced
affect the lack of intimacysometimes and the way that we
express intimacy in our culture.
(00:44):
So, without further ado, drJanelle, Hello everyone.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamma (00:51):
I am .
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist and a
psychotherapist in four statesSouth Carolina, North Carolina,
Florida, and Georgia.
I do a lot of relationship workand I think about it from a
mental health perspective.
So, if you think in terms ofmental health and relationships,
(01:13):
we want to talk about everyencounter, every engagement,
every experience you have withanother person is a relationship
, and so it really means thatyou have to pay attention to the
emotional intelligence that youare walking around with so that
you can build the mosteffective and intimate
relationships possible.
Richard Dodds (01:36):
Yeah, you said that word, intimacy.
How do you describe intimacy?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (01:40):
Oh , intimacy is a matter of having
a deeper cognitive, emotionaland spiritual relationship with
one another, and when you fallover into the romantic side,
then we're definitely talkingabout you know the physical side
of things.
Now it's funny because evenwhen we think in terms of this
(02:00):
pandemic that took away ourability to connect on a physical
level, people really need totouch.
So even if you weren't being ina romantic relationship, that
hug meant so much touchingsomeone's hand to get a point
across or show empathy we didn'trealize, I think, how often we
(02:21):
really do connect throughphysical touch.
So intimacy is about lookingbeyond the physicality of the
person you see and looking tothe cognitive, the emotional,
the spiritual and the physicalconnection you have with those
individuals.
Richard Dodds (02:39):
That's something that's like so more.
I think it's much more holisticthan the way that most people
probably generally probablyinclude myself Think about
intimacy.
Even with my wife, I try tothink about ways that we can
build up intimacy withoutphysical, like the physicality
of it.
What are ways that we cancontinue to grow and get to know
each other and really be ableto know like I'm surprised.
(03:01):
Being able to surprise her issuch a great thing, because I
feel like those kind of momentsbring us closer, just because,
since we've been married, we gotinto the home drama of being
married.
You've got to work, you've gotto take care of the family.
We're together, but we'resitting on the couch and
watching TV and it's just like,yeah, so intimacy is so
(03:22):
important.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (03:22):
Yeah , well, that's what that?
That's why I talk about it fromthat space right of a cognitive
and emotional, because when youreally get to the point where
you are talking more about yourspiritual side, that's kind of
the hopes, dreams, that's thecore beliefs and values that you
have.
When you begin to have thatconversation now you can
(03:45):
surprise someone.
You can't surprise someone thatyou haven't had a really deep
conversation with.
Now you might surprise them asin why did you do that?
What would make you think I'dlike that?
But if you want a really goodsurprise, one that connects you,
one that makes them know thatyou understand who they are at
their core, then you have tohave a conversation, and that
(04:09):
conversation goes beyond when'sthe next time we're going to
connect and hook up and get mesome light.
Richard Dodds (04:17):
You know you said that it reminds me of when I
was dating, when I was single,because I feel like a lot of
that dating time especially likemy friends a lot of my friends
were single at the same time, Ifeel like a lot of it was when I
was dating, when I wasn'tdating with a purpose.
We never built intimacy.
It's kind of like you learnenough to be able to have a
(04:39):
relationship but then, like you,never really other than like
physical.
You never really got thatintimacy like where you really
knew their wants and their needsand their desires would make
them tick.
And I think that was the bigdifference with when I was
started to date with intention.
I got a lot more intimate, Isay way more of my thoughts and
my desires, even being morehonest with myself, because I
don't think at times I wasn'tvery honest with myself on what
(05:01):
I wanted.
Once I got, once I got realwith what I wanted myself, it
allowed me to be more, to learnmore from the people that I was
dating.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (05:08):
Yeah Well, and I think that that's
really unfortunate for most ofus.
We don't spend that time whenwe are single by ourselves,
truly understanding what we want, what our dreams are, what our
desires are.
I mean, shoot, whether or notyou want somebody to be fit, I'm
not talking.
What's the new thing?
(05:28):
The 666?
That sounds demonic all day.
He's a whole.
He got to be six feet tall andhave six pack abs and make six
figures.
Let's be real.
Six figures today.
You better be specific.
Are we talking 750,000?
Are we talking 100,000?
Because there's a difference.
That's difference between thetwo.
(05:50):
But that goes back to knowingwhat you truly want, because if
you just throw out the genericsix figures, I mean my home
costs more than six figures andby the time you take the taxes
out and pay my mortgage, wecan't do anything else, right?
So then, if we're talking aboutwhat you want in terms of, in
(06:11):
terms of how the person looksright, what's their style or
what's their body type orwhatever that is, then it's a
whole another level, right?
You're saying six feet tall,but a six-fig tall, really what
you mean, or do you just wantsomeone who's fit?
Does that represent a fitindividual?
(06:31):
We don't think about it likethat, when you're talking in
terms of even, like you said,getting to know someone a little
bit more, when you're trying toget to know your mate, and you
have to stop for a moment andunderstand where they come from.
Did they grow up in poverty?
Did they grow up in a moreaffluent household?
(06:52):
Now you have a deeperunderstanding of why they do
some of the things that they do,and if we did that while we
were dating, there's so manymore marriages that would not
have happened and you'd await itfor the right one.
Richard Dodds (07:11):
That was so deep just because I know that I
waited so long, I had so manyopportunities to be married
before I met my wife and I justnever.
It was something in the backlike one I only want to get
married once I'm married, that'sit.
That's it for me.
We're going to make it work,baby.
But you know so.
But it's like relationships Ihave been in, like I had been in
(07:32):
longer term relationships andnone of them.
I actually got to that pointwhere it's like, ah, let's get
married.
It's just that I knew, like ona different show that I used to
have it was called RelationshipTalks with Rick and Amy, I
talked about being able tocommit at different levels.
There were people that I couldcommit to being someone's
boyfriend, but I couldn'tnecessarily commit on a level of
(07:52):
being their husband.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (07:54):
Yeah , that's pretty powerful.
So having the ability to committo someone as a boyfriend, but
not necessarily as a husband,that kind of knowledge is
transformative, because if you'dshared with that female what
your level of commitment was,she might have made different
decisions.
(08:14):
And so now you give yourself andher the opportunity to make
quality choices about what youwant next.
And so that's really.
You know, when we talk about my, my book, which I haven't said
anything about at this point,but into me, see mastering black
intimacy for the relationshipyou've always wanted, that is
(08:35):
about one knowing yourself wellenough to know what you want and
then being able to see deeplyenough into the other person
that you understand who they are, not necessarily what they have
to offer.
I think we should take thataway right and think about it in
terms of who is this person andthen whether or not those two
(08:56):
things can come together tocreate this relationship that
would have the ultimate intimacy, where we understand one
another from a cognitive,emotional, spiritual and
physical perspective.
Because the minute that you sayto someone, I don't know that I
want to be more than aboyfriend and they know that
(09:17):
what they want as a husband,they can say, oh, okay, I get
that and move right along.
Richard Dodds (09:24):
They can be like okay, or they could be like all
right, I'm out Either one.
I mean just even coming to thatclarification of what I wanted.
It just like dating in mylatter years.
It was just a lot easier.
It was just like I rememberbeing in dating women and it
would be like, wow, we couldprobably fall into a
relationship for a year or two,but this isn't what I want
(09:48):
holistically, this isn't where Iwant to be.
And once I came to thatrealization when I found my wife
, it was just like all right,this is everything, this is it.
It didn't take me long torealize that this was the woman
that I wanted to be with for therest of my life, because I knew
what I was looking for and whatI needed.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamma (10:05):
I think there's a level of
vulnerability that comes withthat too, because if you're not
sharing with the other partner,male or female, the fact that
you don't want to be more than,or what they want you to be,
right, then you have to askyourself what is it about me
(10:26):
that's making me hold on to thisrelationship, so that I'm
either not alone or not feelinglike I'm going from relationship
to relationship or living up towhat the standard is by society
or culture, or what is creatingthat space where you're not
able to be vulnerable enough toshare that?
(10:47):
Because if you're tellingsomeone this is my truth, I'm
not interested in being married,or I'm not interested in being
more than a boyfriend, thengreat people get to decide what
they want to do.
If you're not sharing that andjust feeding off the fruit of
the land, then you have to stoplong enough to say why am I
(11:09):
doing that to someone when Iknow what they truly want is to
either be married or to be in adeeper, committed relationship
or whatever that looks like, andthat level of vulnerability
takes a lot of maturity for bothpeople.
Richard Dodds (11:26):
Yeah, I know that , even thinking about ending
relationships, you know, evenwhen you know it's not a fit, so
many times you end up fightingfor something that you know is
dead or something that isn'tright and you just continue
hitting the wall and it's justlike, yeah, once I did hit that
level of maturity because, Imean, I have been on both sides
I have been chasing after womenwho said I don't really want to
(11:47):
be in a relationship.
We can, we can kick it, we getto know each other, we can
pretend like we're in arelationship but like I'm not
looking to be in a relationship.
You know, I mean, and that'sbasically what it is like, you
know, like they call it asituation ship, now Right, but
it's basically like a pretendrelationship.
And I've seen a lot of peoplego through a lot of that and
like, once I like open my eyes,I was like, oh, all right, all
(12:09):
right, wow, I don't want towaste anybody's time.
I don't want my time to bewasted.
I need to be realistic and as Igot older to thinking about
wanting kids and whatnot, it'slike you really kind of had to
have to get on my egg andbecause I didn't want to waste
another like you know two, threeyears in a relationship that
wasn't going to end up fruitful.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muh (12:25):
Right , right, and you determine what
fruitful is right.
You determine what fruitfullooks like for a relationship,
and I think that's the level ofmaturity that happens when you
really begin to think about whatyour mental health is like.
Right, because when you'resitting in the midst of high
levels of anxiety or depressionor personality disorders or
(12:46):
bipolar disorder or what haveyou, what begins to happen is
those things feed the kinds ofbehaviors you're going to have
in the relationship.
And we don't really think aboutit that way.
We think we're just out here,moving about the earth, getting
in and out of relationships.
But in all actuality there is afoundation that has formulated
(13:08):
our perspectives on how we workand manage a relationship, how
we navigate that right, and thatcultural conditioning, if you
will, is what then feeds andinforms how we function.
That is all a part of ourexperiences that are held in our
(13:29):
brain and the hippocampus, theemotions around those
experiences that are held in theamygdala, how we then respond
and react in the hypothalamus,in our bodies.
All of that plays a huge partand we really think we're just
kind of having relationshipsbecause this is what we were
taught and this is just what wedo.
(13:50):
No, that's a huge part of ourmental health as well, because
abandonment will show up.
I don't let go of thingsbecause I feel abandoned and
therefore I'm going to stay inthis and I'm going to make the
other person stay in it, becauseif I don't do what they want me
to do, they'll leave me.
Attachment concerns will showup.
(14:11):
Those are all a part of themental health component.
We don't think about it thatway.
We think we're just making itthrough the relationship, right.
But no, it really is a matterof stopping long enough to ask
yourself what do I desire andwhy Is this what my grandma told
(14:31):
me I had to have?
Richard Dodds (14:36):
When it comes to relationships and intimacy?
Do you see much of a differencewhen we're talking about black
people versus other cultures?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (14:44):
Oh for sure.
Yeah, we have a tendency tofunction Well.
Everyone functions out of whatthey know, right, but we
function a lot out of trauma alot.
And I mean it's a given.
We have, as a people,experienced a tremendous amount
of trauma and I hear people whosay, oh, that was back when my
(15:04):
grandmother and my great-grandsand so forth, but the
perspectives that they passedalong through the generations
still exist.
That's kind of how you get tothe 666 when you think about it.
In slavery they were choosingthe taller brawny, more fit,
(15:25):
those who could therefore create, hopefully those who would work
the fields.
And we don't think about itlike that.
We have to get to a place wherewe recognize where our
perspectives come from and thetheories around them.
It's like when people I went toPWI, tcu, my first two years of
(15:50):
college and I remember hearingall of these white girls say
things like I want somebody tall, dark and handsome.
You want a black man.
I have never seen a dark whiteman.
I could not fathom what thatwas like.
And they were like you know,olive colored skin.
(16:13):
I was like a light-skinned blackman and they would push back so
hard, but when you think aboutit, even coming out of slavery
for them, that's what theywanted.
That's what they were sneakingaround with.
It wasn't just the male masters, if you will, who were taking
(16:33):
advantage of the women, it wasalso the females who were
sneaking in to be with the men.
Richard Dodds (16:45):
That's a crazy concept knowing, understanding,
it's so much truth in, and Imean it's the same kind of thing
it's like really knowingyourself and knowing your past,
knowing why, I think so manytimes we spend time not asking
the questions of like, oh, thisis my preference, this is my
preference, but why is it yourpreference?
(17:05):
I don't know if we spend enoughtime asking why.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (17:08):
And who told you that's the way it
had to be?
Where did you learn that, andhave you experienced enough of
anything else to know thedifference?
I grew up in a household thatwas exceedingly religious and
then spiritual.
I think that there is adifference between the two.
Religion is about rules andregulations that, I hate to say,
(17:36):
negatively impact, but they areso rigid that sometimes you
can't be authentically who youtruly are.
Spirituality gives you theopportunity to really grow and
develop into who you are to be,and so what I think has happened
(17:56):
over time is that we've gottenso deeply rooted in religious
perspectives that we forget tobe who God truly called us to be
, because if we don't moveaccording to what the book says,
that someone's interpreting forus, if not for ourselves right,
then what happens is the restof society begins to look at us
(18:19):
different, and so being able toformulate what you like, how you
like it, when you like it whereyou like it, becomes really
challenging when you have agroup of people telling you that
that's not appropriate.
Richard Dodds (18:38):
That's so interesting.
Even it's a lot to unpack and Ithink you said it really well
because I am very spiritualmyself, so I grew up in churches
, so I've seen how rigidsometimes things can be.
Some people will be like, oh,you're going to hell if you wear
red makeup.
It's an interestingrelationship that black people
(19:03):
have specifically withChristianity.
Just because people useChristianity to make us be like,
oh, turn the other cheek, andthat's the only part that they
taught us Turn the other cheek,be a good human being.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (19:21):
And it's beneficial to them.
Richard Dodds (19:23):
Yeah, but they never taught it in a holistic
way.
So I feel like the Bible hasbeen perverted by some people in
such other ways.
When people say I don't believein that, I can kind of
understand it in certain aspects, just because of the way that
it's presented.
It's presented as a way ofcontrolling.
Some people use it as a way tocontrol other people.
I mean, I feel like parents toan extent, whether they do it
(19:45):
consciously or unconsciously.
Especially when you're growingup in a Christian household,
it's certain parts of that thatthey use to kind of control what
you do in your life and I thinkit's like a love, a love hate,
Like you said, for lack of abetter word, it's like a love
hate kind of relationship.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (20:02):
And again, I don't think it's a
love hate relationship with God.
It's a love hate relationshipwith the way in which
religiosity is passed downthrough the generations.
And I mean, you know, earlieryou said you want one marriage
and you ain't getting no mow,and that's it Now.
That's it now.
So it's interesting because Iwill admit so, I've been married
(20:25):
twice, and I will admit that mysecond marriage was because I
was literally told it is betterfor you to marry than to burn.
And I was isolated.
My parents wouldn't sit with meat church.
I wasn't allowed to sit on thefront row where we normally sat.
I would, until I made thedecision that I either was no
(20:46):
longer going to be dating thisperson or I was going to marry
them.
Now, years later, what I did, ofcourse, was, according to the
word, I'm going to follow thescriptures, I'm going to be a
woman of God, I'm going to bethe virtuous wife, I'm going to
write, do the things that needto be done.
But I knew there was somethingwrong.
23 years later, well, 20 yearslater, he's diagnosed by the US
(21:08):
Navy with narcissisticpersonality disorder.
And I'm going.
I knew something.
Oh, my gosh right, like I knewit.
I knew it.
And so I said oh, this is great.
Okay, now that we know, let'sfigure out how we I mean, we
can't cure it, but we can managethe symptoms, right.
And he said I'm sorry, I likeme the way I am, I'm not doing
(21:30):
that, I'm not changing.
Accept it or don't.
And I said I can't any longerbecause it's killing me
literally.
It was killing me, but I lovedhim dearly and I wanted us to be
friends, but we can't becauseof the disorder.
Right, and that's hard, becausewhat I real realize is, if it
(21:52):
had not been for that religiousperspective, I would not have
spent that time in that marriage, experiencing what I
experienced and I'm not going tosay it was all horrible,
because you know, I believe thatGod creates spaces where you
can grow in something but alsosubjecting my children to a
(22:18):
narcissistic disorder thatliterally hurt, and narcissism
hurts horribly.
And if you don't know whatyou're dealing with, you don't
know how.
I mean we laid prostrate beforeGod, I don't know how long.
For many years I was always onthe altar, I was before.
(22:41):
People ask and help me, show mewhat I'm doing, and so.
But when the diagnosis came, Iwent woo, this is good, now we
know what we're working with.
Richard Dodds (22:51):
You know how to attack it once you know the why.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muh (22:53):
Right , but I can't control anybody,
that's so true that isimpossible to do.
God doesn't do that, and a wifeand the Holy Spirit are the
only two things that are calledhelp in the Bible.
But if you think about it theHoly Spirit does not make us do
anything.
He tries to lead, tries a guideand, you know, help us out with
(23:16):
understanding and so forth, andso I can't make a person change
or do better or do different.
So eventually I had to say Ihave to take care of myself, and
it was the hardest thing Ithink I've ever done, because I
love marriage, I think marriageis wonderful and I love being in
relationship and I think it'sfantastic when you're doing it
(23:39):
with someone else who wants todo it with you, right?
And so that's why mental healthand relationships is so
important for all communities.
Richard Dodds (23:52):
Yeah, I think even for me, like outside of
even a religious aspect, I justknew that it's just so much to
share your life with someone,someone.
Give up your I mean you don'tgive up your individuality, but
it kind of morphs just becauseyou're giving up your time.
You're giving up a huge part ofyour time.
I mean, like I used to have ahouse by myself.
(24:13):
Now I have a house with family.
You know, it's a completedifferent and instead of doing
things that way, I want to do it.
It's like you have somebodyelse to consider, absolutely.
And so it's like I just knew,like I just really took my time,
just because it's like I can'tdo this twice.
I don't want to like mentally,like knowing myself I wouldn't
want to do it more than once,you know what I mean Just cause
(24:34):
it's so much to go throughAbsolutely, and that was my
perspective too.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (24:38):
And you know, if that happens for
me again, like I'm not, I am notasking God what his vision is
at this time, but if thathappens for me again, I feel the
exact same way, that that isone of the reasons why I was
there so long is because Iliterally spoke in this.
That's the other thing.
When you speak something out ofyour mouth, the other be
(24:59):
careful, cause words have somuch power.
But I literally spoke out of mymouth that I don't ever want to
be divorced again and,unfortunately for me, I was
married to someone who heardthat and took that and used that
against me.
That was my situation.
(25:19):
I don't think that's everybody.
I think for the most part, wehave to learn how to communicate
effectively.
We have to learn how toregulate our emotions.
We have to learn how to dissectwhat we truly believe versus
what the culture has told us weshould believe.
We have to learn what our ownvalues are and our truths are
(25:41):
and then find the person who'swilling to accept and walk
through that with us.
And it's possible.
It is possible when people sayyou can't have your cake and eat
it too, you can at least havethe frosting and the flavor and
the you know, but work it outbefore you get in it and find
out that you, you know, you, youeating key lime pie and they
(26:03):
eating, you know, rhubarb, rightyeah.
Richard Dodds (26:12):
When, when it comes to relationship, I always
think one of the most importantthings is trying to get on the
same page and understand whatthings mean to you and your
spouse or whoever you're dating,just because, like I've seen so
many times, like where you talkabout especially like intimacy,
like when you grow up, when yougrow up Christian or you grow
up in religious at all, like youknow, like if you have sex,
(26:32):
that's like such a outside ofmarriage, like there's such a
big thing You've got to getmarried and to burn you.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (26:37):
You heard?
Richard Dodds (26:39):
So I know what you mean.
So it's like for a person likelike, who was like religious,
like that, like for them havingsex is such a big thing, but
it's some people who was likesex is just ah, it's just an
afternoon.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So it's like understanding whatthose things mean and I've seen
so many people being in longrelationships and not understand
(27:02):
, like what, what it means,never really get on the same
page, but they've been togetherfor five years and then they get
married.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (27:09):
I'm going to take that to a whole
another level too.
So not just on the same page,but within a few lines on the
page together, because if I'm atthe top of the page and my
partner is at the bottom of thepage, ready to turn the page
once again, we have a challenge.
So then you're talking aboutthe possibility of
disappointment and resentmentand you know irritation and
frustration, because I want toturn the page, I want to see
(27:30):
what's next and I got to waitfor you.
And it's one thing to bewaiting for someone who is only
a few lines from where you'regoing, but if you're waiting for
someone who just started thetop of the page and you're on
the last line, that can bereally tough.
Now, in your twenties and inyour thirties even, that's more.
That's easier.
(27:51):
When you hit those forties andfifties and you've been running
and you read half of the noveland they're just now starting at
page one, that becomes far morechallenging.
Your decision making is verydifferent at that point.
Richard Dodds (28:06):
That's very true.
I can definitely relate to thatCause.
When I started to get in mylate thirties I was like, oh,
like I don't really like that's,that's when that I don't have
time to play like really hit me.
It's like if I really want toget married and I want to start
a family, it's like I need toreally figure out what I want,
and not even just what I want.
I think more importantly islike what I needed and find
(28:27):
someone who like the biggestcompliment my mom could ever
give someone.
And when she met my wife forthe first time before we were
married, the biggest complimentshe ever gave her is like oh you
, you are so yourself around herand that's like the biggest
compliment.
Because when I don't have tochange and she doesn't have to
change and we can be 100%authentic around each other, I
(28:50):
had never experienced anythinglike that.
I didn't even think that waspossible.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (28:55):
Yeah , I, I, I know it's possible.
I, I, yeah, I know it'spossible.
It's really important not tojust lose yourself.
I sometimes hear people saythings like I would lay down
everything for her or I wouldgive up the world for him, and I
think to myself that's not whatyou really want to be doing.
(29:18):
What you really want to bedoing is figuring out how you
can continue to be your mostauthentic self and still
incorporate who the other personis and you're.
You're going to change overtime.
I am not the same person in myfifties because, yes, I'm 52
years old.
I'm happy about that.
I love my fifties.
(29:38):
In my fifties, though, I'm notthe same person I was when I was
20 and even 30.
Now, my the core of my valuesare the same.
What I truly believe, like Itotally believe that Jesus is my
Lord and savior.
You can't, can't, do nothingabout it now.
(29:59):
You can child, that's done,that's there.
I've had that since I was alittle a little person, right.
But I have changed in myperspective about money, right?
So whereas I might have beenone who would kind of go and buy
and do whatever back in the dayand wasn't really thinking
(30:19):
about that much about my creditscore, I thought about it
because my parents were on it,but it wasn't top of mind.
I really wanted the things Iwanted, and so forth.
Now you can't pay me good moneyto mess up my credit score.
I've had people come to me andask me things like you know,
will you co-sign for me?
I wish I would, not my child,not my parent, not my.
(30:44):
No, now I might help you bygiving you the money you need to
do your down payment and then,if I've given it to you, it's
yours, because I'm not one tocome chasing you to get
something back.
I have to.
But I'm not cosign if nobodyever and never have.
Richard Dodds (31:05):
My wife would be.
That would be the equivalent ofit, but you know it would be
ours anyway.
So, aside from that, no, no,I'm totally, I am totally with
you.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (31:15):
Yeah , I'm not talking about your
partner, right?
I'm talking about a familymember, because that's another
type of relationship.
You said, every encounter,every engagement, every
experience you have with anotherperson is a relationship.
So there's an opportunity todetermine whether it's going to
be a really great and intimateconnection or it's going to be
one that kind of puts you on theopposite sides polar
(31:36):
perspectives and you just kindof go, OK, well, you know,
that's who that is and you keepit moving right.
But even when it comes tofamily relationships, you have
to figure out where yourboundaries are, and my entire
family knows that's one for me.
Now, back in the day, I mighthave done something like that.
Oh sure, no problem, I'llcosign.
Richard Dodds (32:00):
Not now.
That shit put us out.
Gone, gone.
So even so, when I'm thinkingabout, like how, like the black
community and intimacy, it seemslike I don't know.
I almost feel like we aren'talways as intimate with intimacy
(32:22):
as our understanding, ourwanting to have a better
knowledge, or even asking thewhy, like how important is it
for us just as a whole, likeblack community, to have a
better relationship, a betterunderstanding of what intimacy
is and why we should actuallyembrace it?
Well, it's huge because we.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (32:42):
What we know statistically is that
we have the highest rate ofdivorce at 30% in the US.
We have in the southeast whichis where I am, in Charleston,
south Carolina the highest ratein the southeast, which is just
above 21%.
We have across religions we,the black church, have the
(33:02):
highest rate of divorce, rightat 19%.
So intimacy that ability to beopen and vulnerable and reach
beyond the physical person isvital if we're going to have any
success at keeping ourrelationships intact, and one of
(33:24):
the ways that we know we canthwart the wealth gap that
exists, a lot of the scarcityand insecurity that exists with
having to work in institutionsthat are racist, dealing with
(33:46):
the structural racism thatexists, the systemic racism that
exists.
One of the ways we do that isthrough marital relationships or
partnered relationships thatare committed for long term.
Right, I'm not saying everybodyhas to get married.
I'm just saying that that's oneof the ways that we contend
with those issues and concerns.
I'm also not saying that if youget married, you will not have
(34:09):
anything to do with wealth, soplease don't take that from what
I'm saying either.
What we know, though, is thosefamilies that are able to, if
you will be on the same pagearound the levels of intimacy
and connection they have inthese spaces of cognitive,
emotional, spiritual andphysical components, that their
(34:32):
relationships are stronger.
So it's vital that we becomemore vulnerable with one another
and that, in being vulnerable,we have safe spaces with which
to speak, safe spaces with whichto bring our challenges to.
So if you're going to tellsomeone your spouse that you're
(34:55):
having difficulty with feelinginferior to someone at work and
they look at you and go why areyou being a punk?
You're not likely to go to themfor help anymore.
Richard Dodds (35:10):
So disconnect.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (35:12):
It's beyond disconnect.
It really is.
It is a stabbing of anothersoul when you cannot be
empathetic, particularly whenit's a romantic relationship
that has all the other emotionstied up in your ability to just
(35:34):
be safe.
It's like murdering yourpartner.
Richard Dodds (35:40):
It's definitely a betrayal and I've been in
relationships that has had thathappen, where you go to confide
and really all it takes is likeone time, like one really good
time, to be like I'll neverbring anything like this to you
again, and it's such a sad thingjust because I feel like it's
(36:02):
not healthy to be in arelationship where you put never
can I do this again with mypartner.
That seems so scary to me now.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (36:09):
Yeah , Well, and that comes from not
having taken the opportunity tobe authentic in the dating
relationship.
It's like you said a moment ago, if you spent, you know, that
couple of years just kind offlittering around and going
places and having a good time,but not having the deep
conversations about your corebeliefs and values, about your
(36:31):
hopes, dreams and desires, yourexpectations for how a
relationship would function,beyond just, you know, don't be
looking at the girls, but whenshe, when she walked by the girl
got a butt, like what?
So I mean beyond that andreally stopping to talk about
what it means, if you feel likeyou happen to be attracted to
(36:53):
someone else and you need tocome and talk to me about it,
how do you want me to take careof you if you become ill?
What does that look like?
Richard Dodds (37:07):
What do you need?
What, yeah, that's so important.
And I think like you,especially when you think about
the United States, united Stateswas not made for a single
person to succeed like long term, like it really wasn't set up
for like one person that's justcome out here and conquer.
Like there are the exceptions,is always going to be the
exceptions, but like America wasbuilt for couples, it really
(37:28):
was.
And like the thing that I'veseen a lot of times and it seems
like in the black community, ittakes a lot longer for us to
actually go from dating to likebeing engaged or to being
married.
Like it seems like it takes alot more years on average.
It's like, oh, when are youguys gonna get married?
(37:48):
We only been dating for fiveyears.
Calm down, you know what I mean.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (37:51):
But , like some other counterparts,
and I know people will be like.
She thinks slavery goteverything wrapped up in it.
But the truth of the matter is,before we came here, we really
did have a handle and a hold onwhat it was to be a family.
We had come entire empires thatwere based on our family
(38:15):
connection but also ourcommunity connection.
It wasn't just about family butcommunity, because when you
think about it, oh gosh, zulushocker, zulu's mother was a
single mom.
Did you know this?
She was a single mom.
Now, you know good and well, intoday's time and age, we're
(38:37):
like oh, look at this, all thesesingle mothers running around.
I'm not telling people to goout here and become single
mothers, please don't hear thatfrom what I'm saying but she was
a single mom.
She got pregnant by someonethat they do not mention in the
history books, right, but thecommunity rallied around her
because she was a strong woman.
And here we had one of the mostfierce warrior kings in the
(39:02):
African nation, a continent,right, but you don't know what
talks about her.
No one has anything to sayabout her.
So before they came and sweptus up and did the transatlantic
slave trade, right, and got usover here, separated us, took
away our language, took away ourability to connect and be a
(39:26):
community, we didn't have thoseissues and concerns and then
think about the fact that theyhonestly took the best of the
best.
Now I'm not saying there any.
You know, in Africa now is theworst.
That's not what I'm saying.
I always have to do that.
What?
Richard Dodds (39:46):
I'm saying is at that time?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (39:48):
why would they take the weakest?
Richard Dodds (39:52):
Why would you try to build?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins (39:53):
something based on the worst of the
population.
No, you would take the best andthey brought us over here and
broke us down such that wedidn't have an appreciation for
marriage because we weren'tallowed to be married.
We didn't have an appreciationfor raising a family because we
weren't allowed to raise ourfamilies.
Now, there came a period intime where we there were
(40:14):
families that were able to dothat, when you look at certain
communities, but the truth ofthe matter is that wasn't our
existence, that wasn't what wewere able to do in the US and
that gets scripted on our DNA.
Richard Dodds (40:31):
It was something that you were talking about when
we talked previously about theman that were used just to
impregnate women.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (40:38):
Yeah .
Richard Dodds (40:40):
Can you speak on that a little bit Well?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamma (40:41):
I mean, when you think about it,
that was their whole purpose,right?
So why would we now think itwould be completely different if
the design for that black manand the way he was formulated,
if you will right Is written onhis DNA that what he's supposed
to do is go and populate theearth?
(41:02):
So what we know from statisticsin all actuality is that
African American men have moresexual partners than any other
culture, any other race orethnicity.
It makes sense.
When they were slaves, that isexactly what they were supposed
(41:22):
to do.
So throughout the history.
When you go into the barbershop,when you're standing on the
corner, when you're talking withyour friends, when you're
telling your story about how youlost your virginity which was
really rape at 10, at 8, at 14,at 12.
That trauma has been normalizedto be acceptable.
(41:46):
And now what we have is, fromtime to time, whole generations
that are just flittering about.
And so the way we solve that isby understanding our history.
And when we understand thehistory, we then say okay, so
what's the solution?
What do you really want?
(42:06):
How do you want to function inthis earth?
What do you want out of life?
Because if what you want is tobe a man who is wealthy, cares
for his family, has solidrelationships, then what you
don't want to do is, from 17 or16 to 25, have four or five
(42:30):
children that are not going tobe with the woman you decide to
marry, where you're going tohave four or five more.
Richard Dodds (42:37):
When you think about it, it does make sense,
because it was a systematicbreakdown of the black household
, I mean, and it lasts at waypast slavery.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (42:46):
Oh my goodness, yes, I mean shoot.
Reagan did a horribledisservice when he came up with
the welfare queen, who happenedto actually have been a white
woman, but we won't go there,right.
Richard Dodds (42:57):
But even in thinking of that, I think about
how important it is to havementorship and community, just
because community networking, soknowing people who've done it
before, it's like thinking abouteven when I had went to college
.
My parents had did some collegeyou know what I mean but they
didn't know what the fullcollege experience was.
(43:18):
So instead of having someonethat I could talk to to give me
what to expect, what to plan for, it's like I didn't see a lot
of people that looked like me,knowing exactly what they were
doing when they got to school.
But some of the other culturesthat I saw, they knew exactly
what they wanted to do, theyknew what to expect.
They had a job waiting for themor they were going to take over
(43:40):
a part of a business.
And I look at even some of thepeople that I graduated with.
I'm like wow, their root waslike so much more direct.
It was like so much I had tolearn just to get to where I am
now.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (43:50):
So imagine what that did to your
mental health the days where youhad high anxiety because you
had no clue, where you hadruminating thoughts because you
were trying desperately tofigure it out and you could not
come to a decision.
Where there was helplessnessand hopelessness, where there
were days where it wasdepression.
See, people think depression isjust a matter of you will
(44:12):
always be depressed if you arediagnosed with depression.
But there's episodic depressionmight last four months, maybe a
year where they were momentswhere you just could not see
that the environment you livedin was creating a situation
where narcissistic personalitydisorder was being developed,
(44:34):
because we don't know if that'senvironmental or biological
Right.
What we do know is that a lotof people from a particular
environment seem to havenarcissistic personality
disorder, borderline personalitydisorder, histrionic
personality disorder, right.
So if you are working with amarginalized community, as a
(44:58):
clinician like I do, I have tobe thinking about what are these
systems and institutions thathave created this space where
the mental health is nowdiminished such that now our
relationships are impacted?
And if we're not having thatconversation, then we're not
(45:18):
having the mental healthconversation, which is the
middle, the connector betweenthe two, so that if we can solve
some of the issues here aroundyour emotionality, around your
thought processes, aroundbehaviors, if we can solve some
things in this mental healtharea, then we can begin to
bridge the gap of solutions forthe challenges that exist in our
(45:44):
communities.
And I know we're going to endin a bit, but I'm going to give
you these statistics so youunderstand how deep this is.
So these come out of our2022-2023 statistics.
Right In the African Americancommunity, we have approximately
14.2% of the population withinthe US and of that population,
(46:10):
we have somewhere in theneighborhood of about 7.2
million who have been diagnosedwith a mental health condition
in the course of a 12-monthperiod.
That doesn't mean that all ofthem will take it into the next
12 months.
It just means in that 12-monthperiod.
So we're talking diagnosedbecause we know there are many
(46:33):
more who are not right.
That means the city ofPhiladelphia, houston and
Chicago together, all theirpopulation, not just the African
American people, but everyonewho lives in those three cities.
That's what we're looking atfor those within our own
community who are living with amental illness.
Now, if you happen to beconnected to someone and we know
(47:02):
if it's 7.2 million people, youprobably are right.
If you're connected withsomeone who is diagnosed and
getting treatment, you'reprobably having a better
relationship with them than youare with those who are not
diagnosed and not receiving anykind of treatment, mental health
and relationships.
That's the way we have to bethinking about how we rebuild
(47:26):
our communities.
Whether you're already marriedor looking to get into a
marriage or having arelationship that's vital to
your success at work, or justbeing able to go to church and
not be mad at people.
She thinks she's better than me.
Nobody thinks they're betterthan you.
Do you think they're betterthan you?
They're fine, they're not.
See.
Well, the minute you can moveout of that frame of reference,
(47:50):
that mentality, you now can openyourself up to receive the
knowledge of how do I getthrough college, how do I decide
what my plan is for a career,how do I make decisions about
who my mate's going to be, howdo I raise these children in a
way that they are successful inthe future Is the greatest
(48:12):
generational wealth we canbestow is emotional and mental
wellness.
Without it, as a people, we arein trouble.
Richard Dodds (48:28):
I know that we talked before that you do
training for other counselors,right?
How important would you saythat it is when trying to find a
counselor, Is it reallyimportant to have someone who
understands your traumas andyour background?
When I was getting married, Idated interracially.
(48:53):
I've dated other nationalitiesand whatnot.
When it came down to as I gotolder, I just really thought
that a black woman when it cameto preferences, my preference
was a black woman, just becausea black woman would understand
what it means when somethinghappens to a black person and
it's televised.
You know what I mean.
I'm not saying that like anon-black woman wouldn't, but I
(49:16):
wanted somebody who could reallyrelate.
So how important is that whenyou're looking for a counselor?
How beneficial is that to havesomeone that shares your
experiences?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (49:25):
Let me start by saying that all
skin folk and kin folk it's true, very true.
Richard Dodds (49:30):
So we're not a monolith, so we have to
recognize that sometimes wemight be able to do that.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (49:39):
We might live in the same skin but
not have the same experience.
So it's cultural competencethat really makes a difference
in a therapist and that's what Iteach and train is cultural
competence through immersion.
So those who come into mypractice and work directly with
me get to go to every fraternityand sorority kind of meetings
(50:02):
that I'm going to where thepublic is invited.
They get to go to all of theblack history events and I
require them to be there.
They you know, if we're doingthe black food truck, you come
into black food truck.
We're doing all of that becauseI want you to be a part of a
community so that you understandthat everything you see on
television is not real.
(50:23):
I mean that happened to thatperson, but it doesn't mean that
that's what's happening in anentire community and a lot of
times people cannot fathom thatthat's true and they'll say
things well, I have blackfriends.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
What you're talking about is theperson that you know at work
around the water cooler.
I'm talking about an intimaterelationship with somewhere, one
(50:44):
where you know their kids,their kids know you.
You have dinner together attheir home.
From time to time you walk inand you could tell the
difference in how the housesmells, because they cook with
seasonings that you don't havein your cabinet.
Right, that is an intimaterelationship with someone from
another race, ethnicity, culture, etc.
(51:05):
So the importance in selecting acounselor is really about their
cultural competence and notnecessarily about whether or not
they look like you.
It's really about their abilityto empathize and listen,
because we have a tendency to benarrative in our perspectives,
so we speak in storylines and ifyou're not willing to listen to
(51:26):
the story over and over againtill you get the part that you
can say, ah, I understand now.
Okay, that connects to this.
That might take four sessionsbecause we're not going to be
comfortable right away.
Now why is that?
We're not comfortable?
Because you know what your momand daddy told you.
(51:47):
What goes on in this housestays in this house.
So it's going to take a fewsessions before I open up enough
or realize that I can trust youenough that I can tell you what
really happened in my home.
Richard Dodds (52:03):
That's so well said.
I love everything about that,so true.
I so can relate.
You talked about it a littlebit earlier.
You mentioned it with your book, with your new book.
What can people expect whenreading that?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (52:20):
So they should come with an open
mind, first of all, because it'sreally important to recognize
that I dig deep.
I have case study in the book.
Someone asked me if you knowboth genders would appreciate it
, and I really think that, morethan anything, men are going to
appreciate it.
I speak to a lot of my maleclients who had experiences that
(52:47):
a lot of men will not talkabout, and so I think men will
really begin to go oof.
I wonder if I could open uplike that and if they read it
with their partner.
Right then they have thisopportunity to build on that
vulnerability, because I talkabout feelings and where they
come from and how we.
So it's open mindedness, it isthe ability to have an
(53:13):
appreciation for each gender, itis mastering black intimacy for
the relationship you've alwayswanted, and yet recognizing that
they're probably throughchapters that speak specifically
to black concerns, what we havelived with and gone through.
And the rest of the book is theinformation that, as you said a
(53:37):
moment ago, we just didn't, weweren't privy to, and now I'm
trying to put it in a spacewhere it's put it where the
goats can get it.
This tax here it is.
So I hope that the twopopulations I was speaking to
get an opportunity.
For one, for us to say, ooh, Ihadn't thought about it like
(53:59):
that, I could do better.
And for my colleagues to beable to say, oh, my goodness, I
need to be more culturallycompetent because I wasn't aware
that racism impacts blackintimacy.
Richard Dodds (54:20):
Thank you so much for sharing so much and giving
so much good, just goodness.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (54:26):
My pleasure, it is my calling and
my purpose, and without you guysI couldn't do it.
And I want to be authentic tome.
Richard Dodds (54:34):
You definitely did that.
Thank you Again.
I'd like to thank Dr Janellefor coming on the show.
If you'd like to learn moreabout her, you can find
information about her and herbook in the show notes.
Still Talking Black is a CrownCulture Media LLC production.
You can find more about StillTalking Black at
(54:55):
StillTalkingBlackcom.
And until next time, keeptalking.
This is Still Talking Black, a show where we
discuss issues affectingblackness from a black point of
view.
I'm your host, Richard Dodds.
On today's show, I'm joined byDr.
Jeannelle, and we talk aboutintimacy Not just romantic
intimacy, but intimacy inregards to friendships and other
situations, because there's alot of times that we talk about
(00:22):
intimacy is involved and it'snot just a romantic relationship
, it's getting to know somebodyas well.
We explore different ways thatblack history and black culture
and the traumas that we've all,like as black people, have faced
affect the lack of intimacysometimes and the way that we
express intimacy in our culture.
(00:44):
So, without further ado, drJanelle, Hello everyone.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamma (00:51):
I am .
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist and a
psychotherapist in four statesSouth Carolina, North Carolina,
Florida, and Georgia.
I do a lot of relationship workand I think about it from a
mental health perspective.
So, if you think in terms ofmental health and relationships,
(01:13):
we want to talk about everyencounter, every engagement,
every experience you have withanother person is a relationship
, and so it really means thatyou have to pay attention to the
emotional intelligence that youare walking around with so that
you can build the mosteffective and intimate
relationships possible.
Richard Dodds (01:36):
Yeah, you said that word, intimacy.
How do you describe intimacy?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (01:40):
Oh , intimacy is a matter of having
a deeper cognitive, emotionaland spiritual relationship with
one another, and when you fallover into the romantic side,
then we're definitely talkingabout you know the physical side
of things.
Now it's funny because evenwhen we think in terms of this
(02:00):
pandemic that took away ourability to connect on a physical
level, people really need totouch.
So even if you weren't being ina romantic relationship, that
hug meant so much touchingsomeone's hand to get a point
across or show empathy we didn'trealize, I think, how often we
(02:21):
really do connect throughphysical touch.
So intimacy is about lookingbeyond the physicality of the
person you see and looking tothe cognitive, the emotional,
the spiritual and the physicalconnection you have with those
individuals.
Richard Dodds (02:39):
That's something that's like so more.
I think it's much more holisticthan the way that most people
probably generally probablyinclude myself Think about
intimacy.
Even with my wife, I try tothink about ways that we can
build up intimacy withoutphysical, like the physicality
of it.
What are ways that we cancontinue to grow and get to know
each other and really be ableto know like I'm surprised.
(03:01):
Being able to surprise her issuch a great thing, because I
feel like those kind of momentsbring us closer, just because,
since we've been married, we gotinto the home drama of being
married.
You've got to work, you've gotto take care of the family.
We're together, but we'resitting on the couch and
watching TV and it's just like,yeah, so intimacy is so
(03:22):
important.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (03:22):
Yeah , well, that's what that?
That's why I talk about it fromthat space right of a cognitive
and emotional, because when youreally get to the point where
you are talking more about yourspiritual side, that's kind of
the hopes, dreams, that's thecore beliefs and values that you
have.
When you begin to have thatconversation now you can
(03:45):
surprise someone.
You can't surprise someone thatyou haven't had a really deep
conversation with.
Now you might surprise them asin why did you do that?
What would make you think I'dlike that?
But if you want a really goodsurprise, one that connects you,
one that makes them know thatyou understand who they are at
their core, then you have tohave a conversation, and that
(04:09):
conversation goes beyond when'sthe next time we're going to
connect and hook up and get mesome light.
Richard Dodds (04:17):
You know you said that it reminds me of when I
was dating, when I was single,because I feel like a lot of
that dating time especially likemy friends a lot of my friends
were single at the same time, Ifeel like a lot of it was when I
was dating, when I wasn'tdating with a purpose.
We never built intimacy.
It's kind of like you learnenough to be able to have a
(04:39):
relationship but then, like you,never really other than like
physical.
You never really got thatintimacy like where you really
knew their wants and their needsand their desires would make
them tick.
And I think that was the bigdifference with when I was
started to date with intention.
I got a lot more intimate, Isay way more of my thoughts and
my desires, even being morehonest with myself, because I
don't think at times I wasn'tvery honest with myself on what
(05:01):
I wanted.
Once I got, once I got realwith what I wanted myself, it
allowed me to be more, to learnmore from the people that I was
dating.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (05:08):
Yeah Well, and I think that that's
really unfortunate for most ofus.
We don't spend that time whenwe are single by ourselves,
truly understanding what we want, what our dreams are, what our
desires are.
I mean, shoot, whether or notyou want somebody to be fit, I'm
not talking.
What's the new thing?
(05:28):
The 666?
That sounds demonic all day.
He's a whole.
He got to be six feet tall andhave six pack abs and make six
figures.
Let's be real.
Six figures today.
You better be specific.
Are we talking 750,000?
Are we talking 100,000?
Because there's a difference.
That's difference between thetwo.
(05:50):
But that goes back to knowingwhat you truly want, because if
you just throw out the genericsix figures, I mean my home
costs more than six figures andby the time you take the taxes
out and pay my mortgage, wecan't do anything else, right?
So then, if we're talking aboutwhat you want in terms of, in
(06:11):
terms of how the person looksright, what's their style or
what's their body type orwhatever that is, then it's a
whole another level, right?
You're saying six feet tall,but a six-fig tall, really what
you mean, or do you just wantsomeone who's fit?
Does that represent a fitindividual?
(06:31):
We don't think about it likethat, when you're talking in
terms of even, like you said,getting to know someone a little
bit more, when you're trying toget to know your mate, and you
have to stop for a moment andunderstand where they come from.
Did they grow up in poverty?
Did they grow up in a moreaffluent household?
(06:52):
Now you have a deeperunderstanding of why they do
some of the things that they do,and if we did that while we
were dating, there's so manymore marriages that would not
have happened and you'd await itfor the right one.
Richard Dodds (07:11):
That was so deep just because I know that I
waited so long, I had so manyopportunities to be married
before I met my wife and I justnever.
It was something in the backlike one I only want to get
married once I'm married, that'sit.
That's it for me.
We're going to make it work,baby.
But you know so.
But it's like relationships Ihave been in, like I had been in
(07:32):
longer term relationships andnone of them.
I actually got to that pointwhere it's like, ah, let's get
married.
It's just that I knew, like ona different show that I used to
have it was called RelationshipTalks with Rick and Amy, I
talked about being able tocommit at different levels.
There were people that I couldcommit to being someone's
boyfriend, but I couldn'tnecessarily commit on a level of
(07:52):
being their husband.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (07:54):
Yeah , that's pretty powerful.
So having the ability to committo someone as a boyfriend, but
not necessarily as a husband,that kind of knowledge is
transformative, because if you'dshared with that female what
your level of commitment was,she might have made different
decisions.
(08:14):
And so now you give yourself andher the opportunity to make
quality choices about what youwant next.
And so that's really.
You know, when we talk about my, my book, which I haven't said
anything about at this point,but into me, see mastering black
intimacy for the relationshipyou've always wanted, that is
(08:35):
about one knowing yourself wellenough to know what you want and
then being able to see deeplyenough into the other person
that you understand who they are, not necessarily what they have
to offer.
I think we should take thataway right and think about it in
terms of who is this person andthen whether or not those two
(08:56):
things can come together tocreate this relationship that
would have the ultimate intimacy, where we understand one
another from a cognitive,emotional, spiritual and
physical perspective.
Because the minute that you sayto someone, I don't know that I
want to be more than aboyfriend and they know that
(09:17):
what they want as a husband,they can say, oh, okay, I get
that and move right along.
Richard Dodds (09:24):
They can be like okay, or they could be like all
right, I'm out Either one.
I mean just even coming to thatclarification of what I wanted.
It just like dating in mylatter years.
It was just a lot easier.
It was just like I rememberbeing in dating women and it
would be like, wow, we couldprobably fall into a
relationship for a year or two,but this isn't what I want
(09:48):
holistically, this isn't where Iwant to be.
And once I came to thatrealization when I found my wife
, it was just like all right,this is everything, this is it.
It didn't take me long torealize that this was the woman
that I wanted to be with for therest of my life, because I knew
what I was looking for and whatI needed.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamma (10:05):
I think there's a level of
vulnerability that comes withthat too, because if you're not
sharing with the other partner,male or female, the fact that
you don't want to be more than,or what they want you to be,
right, then you have to askyourself what is it about me
(10:26):
that's making me hold on to thisrelationship, so that I'm
either not alone or not feelinglike I'm going from relationship
to relationship or living up towhat the standard is by society
or culture, or what is creatingthat space where you're not
able to be vulnerable enough toshare that?
(10:47):
Because if you're tellingsomeone this is my truth, I'm
not interested in being married,or I'm not interested in being
more than a boyfriend, thengreat people get to decide what
they want to do.
If you're not sharing that andjust feeding off the fruit of
the land, then you have to stoplong enough to say why am I
(11:09):
doing that to someone when Iknow what they truly want is to
either be married or to be in adeeper, committed relationship
or whatever that looks like, andthat level of vulnerability
takes a lot of maturity for bothpeople.
Richard Dodds (11:26):
Yeah, I know that , even thinking about ending
relationships, you know, evenwhen you know it's not a fit, so
many times you end up fightingfor something that you know is
dead or something that isn'tright and you just continue
hitting the wall and it's justlike, yeah, once I did hit that
level of maturity because, Imean, I have been on both sides
I have been chasing after womenwho said I don't really want to
(11:47):
be in a relationship.
We can, we can kick it, we getto know each other, we can
pretend like we're in arelationship but like I'm not
looking to be in a relationship.
You know, I mean, and that'sbasically what it is like, you
know, like they call it asituation ship, now Right, but
it's basically like a pretendrelationship.
And I've seen a lot of peoplego through a lot of that and
like, once I like open my eyes,I was like, oh, all right, all
(12:09):
right, wow, I don't want towaste anybody's time.
I don't want my time to bewasted.
I need to be realistic and as Igot older to thinking about
wanting kids and whatnot, it'slike you really kind of had to
have to get on my egg andbecause I didn't want to waste
another like you know two, threeyears in a relationship that
wasn't going to end up fruitful.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muh (12:25):
Right , right, and you determine what
fruitful is right.
You determine what fruitfullooks like for a relationship,
and I think that's the level ofmaturity that happens when you
really begin to think about whatyour mental health is like.
Right, because when you'resitting in the midst of high
levels of anxiety or depressionor personality disorders or
(12:46):
bipolar disorder or what haveyou, what begins to happen is
those things feed the kinds ofbehaviors you're going to have
in the relationship.
And we don't really think aboutit that way.
We think we're just out here,moving about the earth, getting
in and out of relationships.
But in all actuality there is afoundation that has formulated
(13:08):
our perspectives on how we workand manage a relationship, how
we navigate that right, and thatcultural conditioning, if you
will, is what then feeds andinforms how we function.
That is all a part of ourexperiences that are held in our
(13:29):
brain and the hippocampus, theemotions around those
experiences that are held in theamygdala, how we then respond
and react in the hypothalamus,in our bodies.
All of that plays a huge partand we really think we're just
kind of having relationshipsbecause this is what we were
taught and this is just what wedo.
(13:50):
No, that's a huge part of ourmental health as well, because
abandonment will show up.
I don't let go of thingsbecause I feel abandoned and
therefore I'm going to stay inthis and I'm going to make the
other person stay in it, becauseif I don't do what they want me
to do, they'll leave me.
Attachment concerns will showup.
(14:11):
Those are all a part of themental health component.
We don't think about it thatway.
We think we're just making itthrough the relationship, right.
But no, it really is a matterof stopping long enough to ask
yourself what do I desire andwhy Is this what my grandma told
(14:31):
me I had to have?
Richard Dodds (14:36):
When it comes to relationships and intimacy?
Do you see much of a differencewhen we're talking about black
people versus other cultures?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (14:44):
Oh for sure.
Yeah, we have a tendency tofunction Well.
Everyone functions out of whatthey know, right, but we
function a lot out of trauma alot.
And I mean it's a given.
We have, as a people,experienced a tremendous amount
of trauma and I hear people whosay, oh, that was back when my
(15:04):
grandmother and my great-grandsand so forth, but the
perspectives that they passedalong through the generations
still exist.
That's kind of how you get tothe 666 when you think about it.
In slavery they were choosingthe taller brawny, more fit,
(15:25):
those who could therefore create, hopefully those who would work
the fields.
And we don't think about itlike that.
We have to get to a place wherewe recognize where our
perspectives come from and thetheories around them.
It's like when people I went toPWI, tcu, my first two years of
(15:50):
college and I remember hearingall of these white girls say
things like I want somebody tall, dark and handsome.
You want a black man.
I have never seen a dark whiteman.
I could not fathom what thatwas like.
And they were like you know,olive colored skin.
(16:13):
I was like a light-skinned blackman and they would push back so
hard, but when you think aboutit, even coming out of slavery
for them, that's what theywanted.
That's what they were sneakingaround with.
It wasn't just the male masters, if you will, who were taking
(16:33):
advantage of the women, it wasalso the females who were
sneaking in to be with the men.
Richard Dodds (16:45):
That's a crazy concept knowing, understanding,
it's so much truth in, and Imean it's the same kind of thing
it's like really knowingyourself and knowing your past,
knowing why, I think so manytimes we spend time not asking
the questions of like, oh, thisis my preference, this is my
preference, but why is it yourpreference?
(17:05):
I don't know if we spend enoughtime asking why.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (17:08):
And who told you that's the way it
had to be?
Where did you learn that, andhave you experienced enough of
anything else to know thedifference?
I grew up in a household thatwas exceedingly religious and
then spiritual.
I think that there is adifference between the two.
Religion is about rules andregulations that, I hate to say,
(17:36):
negatively impact, but they areso rigid that sometimes you
can't be authentically who youtruly are.
Spirituality gives you theopportunity to really grow and
develop into who you are to be,and so what I think has happened
(17:56):
over time is that we've gottenso deeply rooted in religious
perspectives that we forget tobe who God truly called us to be
, because if we don't moveaccording to what the book says,
that someone's interpreting forus, if not for ourselves right,
then what happens is the restof society begins to look at us
(18:19):
different, and so being able toformulate what you like, how you
like it, when you like it whereyou like it, becomes really
challenging when you have agroup of people telling you that
that's not appropriate.
Richard Dodds (18:38):
That's so interesting.
Even it's a lot to unpack and Ithink you said it really well
because I am very spiritualmyself, so I grew up in churches
, so I've seen how rigidsometimes things can be.
Some people will be like, oh,you're going to hell if you wear
red makeup.
It's an interestingrelationship that black people
(19:03):
have specifically withChristianity.
Just because people useChristianity to make us be like,
oh, turn the other cheek, andthat's the only part that they
taught us Turn the other cheek,be a good human being.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (19:21):
And it's beneficial to them.
Richard Dodds (19:23):
Yeah, but they never taught it in a holistic
way.
So I feel like the Bible hasbeen perverted by some people in
such other ways.
When people say I don't believein that, I can kind of
understand it in certain aspects, just because of the way that
it's presented.
It's presented as a way ofcontrolling.
Some people use it as a way tocontrol other people.
I mean, I feel like parents toan extent, whether they do it
(19:45):
consciously or unconsciously.
Especially when you're growingup in a Christian household,
it's certain parts of that thatthey use to kind of control what
you do in your life and I thinkit's like a love, a love hate,
Like you said, for lack of abetter word, it's like a love
hate kind of relationship.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (20:02):
And again, I don't think it's a
love hate relationship with God.
It's a love hate relationshipwith the way in which
religiosity is passed downthrough the generations.
And I mean, you know, earlieryou said you want one marriage
and you ain't getting no mow,and that's it Now.
That's it now.
So it's interesting because Iwill admit so, I've been married
(20:25):
twice, and I will admit that mysecond marriage was because I
was literally told it is betterfor you to marry than to burn.
And I was isolated.
My parents wouldn't sit with meat church.
I wasn't allowed to sit on thefront row where we normally sat.
I would, until I made thedecision that I either was no
(20:46):
longer going to be dating thisperson or I was going to marry
them.
Now, years later, what I did, ofcourse, was, according to the
word, I'm going to follow thescriptures, I'm going to be a
woman of God, I'm going to bethe virtuous wife, I'm going to
write, do the things that needto be done.
But I knew there was somethingwrong.
23 years later, well, 20 yearslater, he's diagnosed by the US
(21:08):
Navy with narcissisticpersonality disorder.
And I'm going.
I knew something.
Oh, my gosh right, like I knewit.
I knew it.
And so I said oh, this is great.
Okay, now that we know, let'sfigure out how we I mean, we
can't cure it, but we can managethe symptoms, right.
And he said I'm sorry, I likeme the way I am, I'm not doing
(21:30):
that, I'm not changing.
Accept it or don't.
And I said I can't any longerbecause it's killing me
literally.
It was killing me, but I lovedhim dearly and I wanted us to be
friends, but we can't becauseof the disorder.
Right, and that's hard, becausewhat I real realize is, if it
(21:52):
had not been for that religiousperspective, I would not have
spent that time in that marriage, experiencing what I
experienced and I'm not going tosay it was all horrible,
because you know, I believe thatGod creates spaces where you
can grow in something but alsosubjecting my children to a
(22:18):
narcissistic disorder thatliterally hurt, and narcissism
hurts horribly.
And if you don't know whatyou're dealing with, you don't
know how.
I mean we laid prostrate beforeGod, I don't know how long.
For many years I was always onthe altar, I was before.
(22:41):
People ask and help me, show mewhat I'm doing, and so.
But when the diagnosis came, Iwent woo, this is good, now we
know what we're working with.
Richard Dodds (22:51):
You know how to attack it once you know the why.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muh (22:53):
Right , but I can't control anybody,
that's so true that isimpossible to do.
God doesn't do that, and a wifeand the Holy Spirit are the
only two things that are calledhelp in the Bible.
But if you think about it theHoly Spirit does not make us do
anything.
He tries to lead, tries a guideand, you know, help us out with
(23:16):
understanding and so forth, andso I can't make a person change
or do better or do different.
So eventually I had to say Ihave to take care of myself, and
it was the hardest thing Ithink I've ever done, because I
love marriage, I think marriageis wonderful and I love being in
relationship and I think it'sfantastic when you're doing it
(23:39):
with someone else who wants todo it with you, right?
And so that's why mental healthand relationships is so
important for all communities.
Richard Dodds (23:52):
Yeah, I think even for me, like outside of
even a religious aspect, I justknew that it's just so much to
share your life with someone,someone.
Give up your I mean you don'tgive up your individuality, but
it kind of morphs just becauseyou're giving up your time.
You're giving up a huge part ofyour time.
I mean, like I used to have ahouse by myself.
(24:13):
Now I have a house with family.
You know, it's a completedifferent and instead of doing
things that way, I want to do it.
It's like you have somebodyelse to consider, absolutely.
And so it's like I just knew,like I just really took my time,
just because it's like I can'tdo this twice.
I don't want to like mentally,like knowing myself I wouldn't
want to do it more than once,you know what I mean Just cause
(24:34):
it's so much to go throughAbsolutely, and that was my
perspective too.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (24:38):
And you know, if that happens for
me again, like I'm not, I am notasking God what his vision is
at this time, but if thathappens for me again, I feel the
exact same way, that that isone of the reasons why I was
there so long is because Iliterally spoke in this.
That's the other thing.
When you speak something out ofyour mouth, the other be
(24:59):
careful, cause words have somuch power.
But I literally spoke out of mymouth that I don't ever want to
be divorced again and,unfortunately for me, I was
married to someone who heardthat and took that and used that
against me.
That was my situation.
(25:19):
I don't think that's everybody.
I think for the most part, wehave to learn how to communicate
effectively.
We have to learn how toregulate our emotions.
We have to learn how to dissectwhat we truly believe versus
what the culture has told us weshould believe.
We have to learn what our ownvalues are and our truths are
(25:41):
and then find the person who'swilling to accept and walk
through that with us.
And it's possible.
It is possible when people sayyou can't have your cake and eat
it too, you can at least havethe frosting and the flavor and
the you know, but work it outbefore you get in it and find
out that you, you know, you, youeating key lime pie and they
(26:03):
eating, you know, rhubarb, rightyeah.
Richard Dodds (26:12):
When, when it comes to relationship, I always
think one of the most importantthings is trying to get on the
same page and understand whatthings mean to you and your
spouse or whoever you're dating,just because, like I've seen so
many times, like where you talkabout especially like intimacy,
like when you grow up, when yougrow up Christian or you grow
up in religious at all, like youknow, like if you have sex,
(26:32):
that's like such a outside ofmarriage, like there's such a
big thing You've got to getmarried and to burn you.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (26:37):
You heard?
Richard Dodds (26:39):
So I know what you mean.
So it's like for a person likelike, who was like religious,
like that, like for them havingsex is such a big thing, but
it's some people who was likesex is just ah, it's just an
afternoon.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So it's like understanding whatthose things mean and I've seen
so many people being in longrelationships and not understand
(27:02):
, like what, what it means,never really get on the same
page, but they've been togetherfor five years and then they get
married.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (27:09):
I'm going to take that to a whole
another level too.
So not just on the same page,but within a few lines on the
page together, because if I'm atthe top of the page and my
partner is at the bottom of thepage, ready to turn the page
once again, we have a challenge.
So then you're talking aboutthe possibility of
disappointment and resentmentand you know irritation and
frustration, because I want toturn the page, I want to see
(27:30):
what's next and I got to waitfor you.
And it's one thing to bewaiting for someone who is only
a few lines from where you'regoing, but if you're waiting for
someone who just started thetop of the page and you're on
the last line, that can bereally tough.
Now, in your twenties and inyour thirties even, that's more.
That's easier.
(27:51):
When you hit those forties andfifties and you've been running
and you read half of the noveland they're just now starting at
page one, that becomes far morechallenging.
Your decision making is verydifferent at that point.
Richard Dodds (28:06):
That's very true.
I can definitely relate to thatCause.
When I started to get in mylate thirties I was like, oh,
like I don't really like that's,that's when that I don't have
time to play like really hit me.
It's like if I really want toget married and I want to start
a family, it's like I need toreally figure out what I want,
and not even just what I want.
I think more importantly islike what I needed and find
(28:27):
someone who like the biggestcompliment my mom could ever
give someone.
And when she met my wife forthe first time before we were
married, the biggest complimentshe ever gave her is like oh you
, you are so yourself around herand that's like the biggest
compliment.
Because when I don't have tochange and she doesn't have to
change and we can be 100%authentic around each other, I
(28:50):
had never experienced anythinglike that.
I didn't even think that waspossible.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (28:55):
Yeah , I, I, I know it's possible.
I, I, yeah, I know it'spossible.
It's really important not tojust lose yourself.
I sometimes hear people saythings like I would lay down
everything for her or I wouldgive up the world for him, and I
think to myself that's not whatyou really want to be doing.
(29:18):
What you really want to bedoing is figuring out how you
can continue to be your mostauthentic self and still
incorporate who the other personis and you're.
You're going to change overtime.
I am not the same person in myfifties because, yes, I'm 52
years old.
I'm happy about that.
I love my fifties.
(29:38):
In my fifties, though, I'm notthe same person I was when I was
20 and even 30.
Now, my the core of my valuesare the same.
What I truly believe, like Itotally believe that Jesus is my
Lord and savior.
You can't, can't, do nothingabout it now.
(29:59):
You can child, that's done,that's there.
I've had that since I was alittle a little person, right.
But I have changed in myperspective about money, right?
So whereas I might have beenone who would kind of go and buy
and do whatever back in the dayand wasn't really thinking
(30:19):
about that much about my creditscore, I thought about it
because my parents were on it,but it wasn't top of mind.
I really wanted the things Iwanted, and so forth.
Now you can't pay me good moneyto mess up my credit score.
I've had people come to me andask me things like you know,
will you co-sign for me?
I wish I would, not my child,not my parent, not my.
(30:44):
No, now I might help you bygiving you the money you need to
do your down payment and then,if I've given it to you, it's
yours, because I'm not one tocome chasing you to get
something back.
I have to.
But I'm not cosign if nobodyever and never have.
Richard Dodds (31:05):
My wife would be.
That would be the equivalent ofit, but you know it would be
ours anyway.
So, aside from that, no, no,I'm totally, I am totally with
you.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (31:15):
Yeah , I'm not talking about your
partner, right?
I'm talking about a familymember, because that's another
type of relationship.
You said, every encounter,every engagement, every
experience you have with anotherperson is a relationship.
So there's an opportunity todetermine whether it's going to
be a really great and intimateconnection or it's going to be
one that kind of puts you on theopposite sides polar
(31:36):
perspectives and you just kindof go, OK, well, you know,
that's who that is and you keepit moving right.
But even when it comes tofamily relationships, you have
to figure out where yourboundaries are, and my entire
family knows that's one for me.
Now, back in the day, I mighthave done something like that.
Oh sure, no problem, I'llcosign.
Richard Dodds (32:00):
Not now.
That shit put us out.
Gone, gone.
So even so, when I'm thinkingabout, like how, like the black
community and intimacy, it seemslike I don't know.
I almost feel like we aren'talways as intimate with intimacy
(32:22):
as our understanding, ourwanting to have a better
knowledge, or even asking thewhy, like how important is it
for us just as a whole, likeblack community, to have a
better relationship, a betterunderstanding of what intimacy
is and why we should actuallyembrace it?
Well, it's huge because we.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (32:42):
What we know statistically is that
we have the highest rate ofdivorce at 30% in the US.
We have in the southeast whichis where I am, in Charleston,
south Carolina the highest ratein the southeast, which is just
above 21%.
We have across religions we,the black church, have the
(33:02):
highest rate of divorce, rightat 19%.
So intimacy that ability to beopen and vulnerable and reach
beyond the physical person isvital if we're going to have any
success at keeping ourrelationships intact, and one of
(33:24):
the ways that we know we canthwart the wealth gap that
exists, a lot of the scarcityand insecurity that exists with
having to work in institutionsthat are racist, dealing with
(33:46):
the structural racism thatexists, the systemic racism that
exists.
One of the ways we do that isthrough marital relationships or
partnered relationships thatare committed for long term.
Right, I'm not saying everybodyhas to get married.
I'm just saying that that's oneof the ways that we contend
with those issues and concerns.
I'm also not saying that if youget married, you will not have
(34:09):
anything to do with wealth, soplease don't take that from what
I'm saying either.
What we know, though, is thosefamilies that are able to, if
you will be on the same pagearound the levels of intimacy
and connection they have inthese spaces of cognitive,
emotional, spiritual andphysical components, that their
(34:32):
relationships are stronger.
So it's vital that we becomemore vulnerable with one another
and that, in being vulnerable,we have safe spaces with which
to speak, safe spaces with whichto bring our challenges to.
So if you're going to tellsomeone your spouse that you're
(34:55):
having difficulty with feelinginferior to someone at work and
they look at you and go why areyou being a punk?
You're not likely to go to themfor help anymore.
Richard Dodds (35:10):
So disconnect.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (35:12):
It's beyond disconnect.
It really is.
It is a stabbing of anothersoul when you cannot be
empathetic, particularly whenit's a romantic relationship
that has all the other emotionstied up in your ability to just
(35:34):
be safe.
It's like murdering yourpartner.
Richard Dodds (35:40):
It's definitely a betrayal and I've been in
relationships that has had thathappen, where you go to confide
and really all it takes is likeone time, like one really good
time, to be like I'll neverbring anything like this to you
again, and it's such a sad thingjust because I feel like it's
(36:02):
not healthy to be in arelationship where you put never
can I do this again with mypartner.
That seems so scary to me now.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (36:09):
Yeah , Well, and that comes from not
having taken the opportunity tobe authentic in the dating
relationship.
It's like you said a moment ago, if you spent, you know, that
couple of years just kind offlittering around and going
places and having a good time,but not having the deep
conversations about your corebeliefs and values, about your
(36:31):
hopes, dreams and desires, yourexpectations for how a
relationship would function,beyond just, you know, don't be
looking at the girls, but whenshe, when she walked by the girl
got a butt, like what?
So I mean beyond that andreally stopping to talk about
what it means, if you feel likeyou happen to be attracted to
(36:53):
someone else and you need tocome and talk to me about it,
how do you want me to take careof you if you become ill?
What does that look like?
Richard Dodds (37:07):
What do you need?
What, yeah, that's so important.
And I think like you,especially when you think about
the United States, united Stateswas not made for a single
person to succeed like long term, like it really wasn't set up
for like one person that's justcome out here and conquer.
Like there are the exceptions,is always going to be the
exceptions, but like America wasbuilt for couples, it really
(37:28):
was.
And like the thing that I'veseen a lot of times and it seems
like in the black community, ittakes a lot longer for us to
actually go from dating to likebeing engaged or to being
married.
Like it seems like it takes alot more years on average.
It's like, oh, when are youguys gonna get married?
(37:48):
We only been dating for fiveyears.
Calm down, you know what I mean.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (37:51):
But , like some other counterparts,
and I know people will be like.
She thinks slavery goteverything wrapped up in it.
But the truth of the matter is,before we came here, we really
did have a handle and a hold onwhat it was to be a family.
We had come entire empires thatwere based on our family
(38:15):
connection but also ourcommunity connection.
It wasn't just about family butcommunity, because when you
think about it, oh gosh, zulushocker, zulu's mother was a
single mom.
Did you know this?
She was a single mom.
Now, you know good and well, intoday's time and age, we're
(38:37):
like oh, look at this, all thesesingle mothers running around.
I'm not telling people to goout here and become single
mothers, please don't hear thatfrom what I'm saying but she was
a single mom.
She got pregnant by someonethat they do not mention in the
history books, right, but thecommunity rallied around her
because she was a strong woman.
And here we had one of the mostfierce warrior kings in the
(39:02):
African nation, a continent,right, but you don't know what
talks about her.
No one has anything to sayabout her.
So before they came and sweptus up and did the transatlantic
slave trade, right, and got usover here, separated us, took
away our language, took away ourability to connect and be a
(39:26):
community, we didn't have thoseissues and concerns and then
think about the fact that theyhonestly took the best of the
best.
Now I'm not saying there any.
You know, in Africa now is theworst.
That's not what I'm saying.
I always have to do that.
What?
Richard Dodds (39:46):
I'm saying is at that time?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (39:48):
why would they take the weakest?
Richard Dodds (39:52):
Why would you try to build?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins (39:53):
something based on the worst of the
population.
No, you would take the best andthey brought us over here and
broke us down such that wedidn't have an appreciation for
marriage because we weren'tallowed to be married.
We didn't have an appreciationfor raising a family because we
weren't allowed to raise ourfamilies.
Now, there came a period intime where we there were
(40:14):
families that were able to dothat, when you look at certain
communities, but the truth ofthe matter is that wasn't our
existence, that wasn't what wewere able to do in the US and
that gets scripted on our DNA.
Richard Dodds (40:31):
It was something that you were talking about when
we talked previously about theman that were used just to
impregnate women.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muha (40:38):
Yeah .
Richard Dodds (40:40):
Can you speak on that a little bit Well?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamma (40:41):
I mean, when you think about it,
that was their whole purpose,right?
So why would we now think itwould be completely different if
the design for that black manand the way he was formulated,
if you will right Is written onhis DNA that what he's supposed
to do is go and populate theearth?
(41:02):
So what we know from statisticsin all actuality is that
African American men have moresexual partners than any other
culture, any other race orethnicity.
It makes sense.
When they were slaves, that isexactly what they were supposed
(41:22):
to do.
So throughout the history.
When you go into the barbershop,when you're standing on the
corner, when you're talking withyour friends, when you're
telling your story about how youlost your virginity which was
really rape at 10, at 8, at 14,at 12.
That trauma has been normalizedto be acceptable.
(41:46):
And now what we have is, fromtime to time, whole generations
that are just flittering about.
And so the way we solve that isby understanding our history.
And when we understand thehistory, we then say okay, so
what's the solution?
What do you really want?
(42:06):
How do you want to function inthis earth?
What do you want out of life?
Because if what you want is tobe a man who is wealthy, cares
for his family, has solidrelationships, then what you
don't want to do is, from 17 or16 to 25, have four or five
(42:30):
children that are not going tobe with the woman you decide to
marry, where you're going tohave four or five more.
Richard Dodds (42:37):
When you think about it, it does make sense,
because it was a systematicbreakdown of the black household
, I mean, and it lasts at waypast slavery.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (42:46):
Oh my goodness, yes, I mean shoot.
Reagan did a horribledisservice when he came up with
the welfare queen, who happenedto actually have been a white
woman, but we won't go there,right.
Richard Dodds (42:57):
But even in thinking of that, I think about
how important it is to havementorship and community, just
because community networking, soknowing people who've done it
before, it's like thinking abouteven when I had went to college
.
My parents had did some collegeyou know what I mean but they
didn't know what the fullcollege experience was.
(43:18):
So instead of having someonethat I could talk to to give me
what to expect, what to plan for, it's like I didn't see a lot
of people that looked like me,knowing exactly what they were
doing when they got to school.
But some of the other culturesthat I saw, they knew exactly
what they wanted to do, theyknew what to expect.
They had a job waiting for themor they were going to take over
(43:40):
a part of a business.
And I look at even some of thepeople that I graduated with.
I'm like wow, their root waslike so much more direct.
It was like so much I had tolearn just to get to where I am
now.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (43:50):
So imagine what that did to your
mental health the days where youhad high anxiety because you
had no clue, where you hadruminating thoughts because you
were trying desperately tofigure it out and you could not
come to a decision.
Where there was helplessnessand hopelessness, where there
were days where it wasdepression.
See, people think depression isjust a matter of you will
(44:12):
always be depressed if you arediagnosed with depression.
But there's episodic depressionmight last four months, maybe a
year where they were momentswhere you just could not see
that the environment you livedin was creating a situation
where narcissistic personalitydisorder was being developed,
(44:34):
because we don't know if that'senvironmental or biological
Right.
What we do know is that a lotof people from a particular
environment seem to havenarcissistic personality
disorder, borderline personalitydisorder, histrionic
personality disorder, right.
So if you are working with amarginalized community, as a
(44:58):
clinician like I do, I have tobe thinking about what are these
systems and institutions thathave created this space where
the mental health is nowdiminished such that now our
relationships are impacted?
And if we're not having thatconversation, then we're not
(45:18):
having the mental healthconversation, which is the
middle, the connector betweenthe two, so that if we can solve
some of the issues here aroundyour emotionality, around your
thought processes, aroundbehaviors, if we can solve some
things in this mental healtharea, then we can begin to
bridge the gap of solutions forthe challenges that exist in our
(45:44):
communities.
And I know we're going to endin a bit, but I'm going to give
you these statistics so youunderstand how deep this is.
So these come out of our2022-2023 statistics.
Right In the African Americancommunity, we have approximately
14.2% of the population withinthe US and of that population,
(46:10):
we have somewhere in theneighborhood of about 7.2
million who have been diagnosedwith a mental health condition
in the course of a 12-monthperiod.
That doesn't mean that all ofthem will take it into the next
12 months.
It just means in that 12-monthperiod.
So we're talking diagnosedbecause we know there are many
(46:33):
more who are not right.
That means the city ofPhiladelphia, houston and
Chicago together, all theirpopulation, not just the African
American people, but everyonewho lives in those three cities.
That's what we're looking atfor those within our own
community who are living with amental illness.
Now, if you happen to beconnected to someone and we know
(47:02):
if it's 7.2 million people, youprobably are right.
If you're connected withsomeone who is diagnosed and
getting treatment, you'reprobably having a better
relationship with them than youare with those who are not
diagnosed and not receiving anykind of treatment, mental health
and relationships.
That's the way we have to bethinking about how we rebuild
(47:26):
our communities.
Whether you're already marriedor looking to get into a
marriage or having arelationship that's vital to
your success at work, or justbeing able to go to church and
not be mad at people.
She thinks she's better than me.
Nobody thinks they're betterthan you.
Do you think they're betterthan you?
They're fine, they're not.
See.
Well, the minute you can moveout of that frame of reference,
(47:50):
that mentality, you now can openyourself up to receive the
knowledge of how do I getthrough college, how do I decide
what my plan is for a career,how do I make decisions about
who my mate's going to be, howdo I raise these children in a
way that they are successful inthe future Is the greatest
(48:12):
generational wealth we canbestow is emotional and mental
wellness.
Without it, as a people, we arein trouble.
Richard Dodds (48:28):
I know that we talked before that you do
training for other counselors,right?
How important would you saythat it is when trying to find a
counselor, Is it reallyimportant to have someone who
understands your traumas andyour background?
When I was getting married, Idated interracially.
(48:53):
I've dated other nationalitiesand whatnot.
When it came down to as I gotolder, I just really thought
that a black woman when it cameto preferences, my preference
was a black woman, just becausea black woman would understand
what it means when somethinghappens to a black person and
it's televised.
You know what I mean.
I'm not saying that like anon-black woman wouldn't, but I
(49:16):
wanted somebody who could reallyrelate.
So how important is that whenyou're looking for a counselor?
How beneficial is that to havesomeone that shares your
experiences?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muham (49:25):
Let me start by saying that all
skin folk and kin folk it's true, very true.
Richard Dodds (49:30):
So we're not a monolith, so we have to
recognize that sometimes wemight be able to do that.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (49:39):
We might live in the same skin but
not have the same experience.
So it's cultural competencethat really makes a difference
in a therapist and that's what Iteach and train is cultural
competence through immersion.
So those who come into mypractice and work directly with
me get to go to every fraternityand sorority kind of meetings
(50:02):
that I'm going to where thepublic is invited.
They get to go to all of theblack history events and I
require them to be there.
They you know, if we're doingthe black food truck, you come
into black food truck.
We're doing all of that becauseI want you to be a part of a
community so that you understandthat everything you see on
television is not real.
(50:23):
I mean that happened to thatperson, but it doesn't mean that
that's what's happening in anentire community and a lot of
times people cannot fathom thatthat's true and they'll say
things well, I have blackfriends.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
What you're talking about is theperson that you know at work
around the water cooler.
I'm talking about an intimaterelationship with somewhere, one
(50:44):
where you know their kids,their kids know you.
You have dinner together attheir home.
From time to time you walk inand you could tell the
difference in how the housesmells, because they cook with
seasonings that you don't havein your cabinet.
Right, that is an intimaterelationship with someone from
another race, ethnicity, culture, etc.
(51:05):
So the importance in selecting acounselor is really about their
cultural competence and notnecessarily about whether or not
they look like you.
It's really about their abilityto empathize and listen,
because we have a tendency to benarrative in our perspectives,
so we speak in storylines and ifyou're not willing to listen to
(51:26):
the story over and over againtill you get the part that you
can say, ah, I understand now.
Okay, that connects to this.
That might take four sessionsbecause we're not going to be
comfortable right away.
Now why is that?
We're not comfortable?
Because you know what your momand daddy told you.
(51:47):
What goes on in this housestays in this house.
So it's going to take a fewsessions before I open up enough
or realize that I can trust youenough that I can tell you what
really happened in my home.
Richard Dodds (52:03):
That's so well said.
I love everything about that,so true.
I so can relate.
You talked about it a littlebit earlier.
You mentioned it with your book, with your new book.
What can people expect whenreading that?
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (52:20):
So they should come with an open
mind, first of all, because it'sreally important to recognize
that I dig deep.
I have case study in the book.
Someone asked me if you knowboth genders would appreciate it
, and I really think that, morethan anything, men are going to
appreciate it.
I speak to a lot of my maleclients who had experiences that
(52:47):
a lot of men will not talkabout, and so I think men will
really begin to go oof.
I wonder if I could open uplike that and if they read it
with their partner.
Right then they have thisopportunity to build on that
vulnerability, because I talkabout feelings and where they
come from and how we.
So it's open mindedness, it isthe ability to have an
(53:13):
appreciation for each gender, itis mastering black intimacy for
the relationship you've alwayswanted, and yet recognizing that
they're probably throughchapters that speak specifically
to black concerns, what we havelived with and gone through.
And the rest of the book is theinformation that, as you said a
(53:37):
moment ago, we just didn't, weweren't privy to, and now I'm
trying to put it in a spacewhere it's put it where the
goats can get it.
This tax here it is.
So I hope that the twopopulations I was speaking to
get an opportunity.
For one, for us to say, ooh, Ihadn't thought about it like
(53:59):
that, I could do better.
And for my colleagues to beable to say, oh, my goodness, I
need to be more culturallycompetent because I wasn't aware
that racism impacts blackintimacy.
Richard Dodds (54:20):
Thank you so much for sharing so much and giving
so much good, just goodness.
Dr. Jeannelle Perkins-Muhamm (54:26):
My pleasure, it is my calling and
my purpose, and without you guysI couldn't do it.
And I want to be authentic tome.
Richard Dodds (54:34):
You definitely did that.
Thank you Again.
I'd like to thank Dr Janellefor coming on the show.
If you'd like to learn moreabout her, you can find
information about her and herbook in the show notes.
Still Talking Black is a CrownCulture Media LLC production.
You can find more about StillTalking Black at
(54:55):
StillTalkingBlackcom.
And until next time, keeptalking.
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