How to Support a Loved One Through Addiction (Without Losing Yourself) with Amber Hollingsworth

What happens when your sobriety collides with a loved one’s addiction? In this episode, I talk with addiction specialist Amber Hollingsworth about how to support someone struggling without enabling, the truth about boundaries, and how to protect your own wellbeing in the process.

What happens when I’m navigating my own sobriety while someone I love is still caught in addiction’s grip?

In this episode, I sit down with addiction specialist Amber Hollingsworth, founder of Put the Shovel Down, to talk about what it really looks like to support a loved one through addiction without losing yourself in the process.

Amber shares why the belief that “you can’t help until they want it” keeps families stuck, the powerful difference between boundaries and rules, and how anger and control can actually fuel addiction. With 20+ years of experience, she brings a compassionate, strength-based approach that focuses on what is working instead of only on the problems.

I also open up about my own experience discovering a partner’s hidden addiction—the betrayal, confusion, and self-doubt it created—and Amber breaks down the psychology behind denial and delusion so you can finally understand what’s really happening in your loved one’s mind.

✨ You’ll hear:

• How to support loved ones without enabling
• Why boundaries protect you (and why they’re not rules)
• The sneaky ways anger and control can actually backfire
• Why women in over-functioning roles often turn to substances as an escape valve
• How reclaiming your feminine energy shifts the entire dynamic

If you’ve ever felt responsible for carrying the weight of someone else’s addiction, this conversation will give you the clarity and tools to protect your own wellbeing.

✨ Don’t miss the free resource in the show notes: 60 Seconds to Calm — the same quick practice I use to ground myself in moments of overwhelm.

About Amber Hollingsworth

Amber Hollingsworth is a Licensed Professional Counselor, Master Addiction Counselor, and the founder of the popular YouTube channel Put the Shovel Down. With over 20 years of experience, she specializes in helping families understand addiction, create effective boundaries, and support recovery without falling into enabling patterns. Her strength-based, practical approach empowers families to stop feeling helpless and start creating meaningful change.

Connect with Amber:

• 🌐 Website: hopeforefamiliesrecoverycenter.com
• 📺 YouTube: Put the Shovel Down
• 📘 Free Resources: puttheshoveldown.com

DISCLAIMER: This podcast and its contents are not a substitute for rehabilitation, medical treatment or advice. It is for educational and inspirational purposes. I am not a therapist or doctor. The views here are expressed a personal opinion and based on first hand experience. Please consult a doctor if your mental or physical health is at risk.

Episode Transcript

Mary Wagstaff (00:03):
Welcome to Stop Drinking and Start Living the
Feminine Way.
I'm your hostess, mary Wagstaff, holistic Alcohol Coach and
Feminine Embodiment Guide, hereto help you effortlessly release
alcohol by reclaiming yourfeminine essence.
Sobriety isn't just aboutquitting drinking.
It's about removing thedistortions that keep you

(00:25):
disconnected, overwhelmed andstuck in cycles of numbing.
Each week, I'll share powerfultools, new perspectives that
transform, and deeply relatablestories to help you step into
the power, pleasure and purposethat it is to be a woman.
This is your next evolution ofawakened empowerment.

(00:46):
Welcome to the Feminine Way.
Welcome back to the show.
My beautiful listeners, thankyou so much for being here.
I hope that you are doingamazing and that today's episode
can help you feel even better.
Today's a really specialepisode.
Actually.
It really is one that is verypersonal and near and dear to my
heart.
Not only do I not do interviewsoften, but I don't typically

(01:09):
talk to other professionals inthe sphere of sobriety and
addiction, but AmberHollingsworth, who I interviewed
on today's show, is a resourcethat I actually sought out.
She has an amazing YouTubechannel called Put the Shovel

(01:30):
Down, and we talk all about iton the show, and her expertise,
in addition to helping peoplethrough their sobriety recovery
journeys is really helping lovedones and family members on the
other side of addiction, and thereason I think this is so
important to talk about isbecause you might be that person
.
I am that person.

(01:51):
Oftentimes, if we have been ina relationship to alcohol or to
any other substance, chances arethat we know someone else that
also is, and there are varyingdegrees of addiction and
recovery and sobriety and thewhole gamut right.
There isn't a one-size-fits-allthing.

(02:13):
So when we get, we know whathas worked for us through the
journey of sobriety, but we arealso probably dealing with other
people in our lives, loved ones, that have addictions as well,
and so it's really important,when you get to that place, to

(02:33):
know how to A protect your ownsobriety, but also how to
interact with people that youlove that may not be in the same
place as you are, and to keepan open mind that, if you are
this person who may be in theplace of a deeper place of

(02:54):
addiction right now, that theremay be loved ones in your life
that you are impacting, and sothis doesn't come with any shame
or with any judgment, but froma place of the willingness to
really open your mind and reallyopen your heart and to see
beyond what the limitations ofour own personal experience can

(03:18):
be, and that's a really hardthing to do.
But the way that we make anychange whether it's in a
relationship with ourselves,with habits is we have to
generate more awareness.
We have to see the story from anew perspective, because if we
only ever see it from the narrowconfines of our own limited
perspective, then we can't evercreate something new.

(03:41):
So I share a lot of personalinformation in this podcast and
I really hope this serves.
I would love to have aconversation with you about this
, so feel free to email me.
Let me know what you took awayfrom the show.
All of the information is inthe show notes.
So Amber Hollingsworth has spentthe last 15 years committed to

(04:01):
helping families recover theirloved ones from addiction and,
after working in inpatient foralmost 10 years, she became
disillusioned with thefactory-like process used to
deal with mental health andaddiction issues.
So in this way and we talkabout this on the show we are

(04:22):
coming at this from more of astrength-based perspective
versus.
This is a declaration of beingbroken, that we all can become
addicted, no matter who we are,and that when we look at what's
working, who we are and whatstrengths we do have, that we

(04:42):
can lean on those to findsolutions, versus just always
focusing on the problem.
So please check out her YouTubechannel, put the Shovel Down.
It is chock full of resources,it's extremely impressive and
I've spent many hours theregetting support for myself and I
hope that this serves have abeautiful day.

(05:03):
So Amber has this amazingYouTube channel, amongst other
things, called Put Down theShovel Put the Shovel Down,
sorry.
So tell us about that, tell uswhat you do and all all of the
things.

Amber Hollingsworth (05:16):
All right, Well, by trade.
I guess I am a licensed mentalhealth counselor and a master
addiction counselor, and so I'vebeen helping people overcome
addiction for more than 20 yearsnow a long time.
I feel really old when I saythat and I started the YouTube
channel back in 2016,.

(05:36):
Really got into it in 2018.
Like, I really really starteddoing it, trying to help not
just reach people who haveaddictions, but specifically
trying to reach people who haveloved ones who have addictions,
because I would constantly begetting calls.
You know, like I want my lovedone to come see you but I don't
even know how to get them inthere.

(05:57):
Or you know they don't thinkthey have a problem or they
don't want to get help.
And I spent a lot of timecoaching families on you know
how to interact with someone whohas an addiction and what's
helpful and what's not, and sooften families are the ones
looking for help and everywherethey go, people just kind of
give them the message ofwell, there's nothing you can do

(06:18):
and you just have to wait untilthey decide they want it for
themselves and maybe they'll hita bottom and figure it out.
And for a lot of people that'sjust not, that's not an
acceptable answer.
If that's your kid or yourpartner or your, you know, like
that whole, just cross myfingers and hope for the best.
Just you know there's gotta besomething else, and so a lot of
what I do on YouTube is helpingfamilies figure that out.

Mary Wagstaff (06:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And then what happens from fromafter YouTube?

Amber Hollingsworth (06:52):
like people find you and how else do they
engage with you.
Well, I don't do counselinganymore because of YouTube,
because these days we talk topeople all over the world and
mostly it's consultations.
So we do a lot of consultationswith family members.
We have some online courses,like.
We have an online course calledthe Invisible.
Intervention which teachesfamily members how to get
through to someone, and I stilldo some recovery coaching, but
it's a strengths-basedperspective.

(07:12):
So it's like looking at what'sright with you, not just what's
wrong with you, and kind of howto redirect your energy in a way
that works for you.

Mary Wagstaff (07:20):
Yeah, I love that , and that's my mission over
here too is to really everysingle client that I work with
in the our, for the firstquestion I always ask them is
what's working and what are youcelebrating?
And that's why I asked you to,because if we're focused on the
positive, then everything elsefrom there can be like, oh,
there's a new perspective here.
Right, there's, there'sopenness for a new perspective.
So, yeah, I'm so impressed withyour YouTube channel.

(07:42):
It's something that I'vethought about for many years and
I'm like, oh my gosh, it seemsso daunting, but thank you so
much for the work you do.
So, moving on, this is actuallyhow I first found Amber, before
there was even this question ofa potential collaboration with
her coming on the show, and thereason I said yes to having
Amber on the show was to supportyou all, to support the

(08:05):
listeners here more, because itis something that I don't coach
on regularly Now, of course, Ido coach on a woman's mindset
and, if her partner is stilldrinking, how she can show up
for herself around that, but Ido believe there is a spectrum
of addiction, use and dependency, and it is just not something I

(08:28):
talk about a lot, and not onlyis it A important, if the
individual has had their ownaddiction, their own
relationship with alcohol or anyother substances, that they
need to have that perspectivetoo, because the way that they
showed up to release alcohol isgoing to might be very different

(08:50):
from the way that, say, theirpartner is doing it.
So I'll just kind of brieflygive this little scenario is
that this was a dynamichappening in my own personal
relationship where my partnerand I had partied together, we
drank together and really it'sbeen an alcohol-free home and a
substance-free home, since I'venot been drinking With like the

(09:13):
occasional, like.
I kind of knew he had had acouple of moments with alcohol,
but I came to find out actuallythis just happened a few months
ago and it's still been prettyrocky, kind of rocked my nervous
system that he had been using asubstance called Kratom or some
people call it Kratom for thelast six years and I knew about
this on and off, but I didn'tknow the extent of it and I knew

(09:35):
that there was like this majordetox happening.
But it came to a head and therewas, like you know, lying and
deceit.
You know what fell is likedeceit and it's so.
It's something you can takevery, very personally, and there
was a lot of I'm sure you havethe words for it a lot of denial
on the other end of it and alot of like this is my life.

(09:56):
It's not illegal, it's like itwas very delusional, almost felt
like he had like died in a waythe, the, the.
It was very experience the wayhe was communicating with me.
So I went down a little rabbithole of support and you really
were the one that I found many,many of your videos so so

(10:17):
helpful.
So, yeah, can you maybe justtalk a little bit to the
audience If someone right now isin that space, like they're,
they're working on their own,even if it's not sobriety, but
they're working on just theirown life, being the best version
of themselves, and they, youknow, they're interacting or
finding even that statespecifically with someone that's

(10:38):
, you know, in the state ofdenial.

Amber Hollingsworth (10:40):
Right.
Well, if you're, if you're inrecovery, recovery yourself or
figuring it out yourself,whatever you're at with that, it
may seem like, well, you'vealready figured all that out, so
you would know exactly what todo.
But that's not always the case,because you can run into a
couple of extra roadblocks ifyou're in recovery.
One is the people in your lifecan feel like oh, just because

(11:02):
you did it doesn't mean youshould push that on us so they
can have like a resistance tohearing what you have to say
because you're in recovery andthat's frustrating.
The other thing is is becauseyou've been there, you know what
you're looking at and so you'reeven more worried and you want
them to figure it out and yourealize how much better you feel
.
So there's even more pressureto get through to this person

(11:24):
and pull them over to your, yourside of the street or your side
.
You know your way of thinkingand so there's a pressure about
that.
But in my experience, whetheryou're in recovery or not, you
have all the same reactions whenyou have a loved one struggling
.

Mary Wagstaff (11:39):
Yes.

Amber Hollingsworth (11:40):
Very instinctual and everything you
know kind of goes out of thewindow.
You're scared, You're watchingyour loved one, like, run
towards this cliff and destroytheir life oftentimes destroying
yours with them and there's apanic that sets in.

Mary Wagstaff (12:00):
Well, and I think what was even more upsetting
was this kind of lap, this lapseof reality where, you know,
we've had tons, tons ofconversations about alcohol and
how we're so glad we're on theother side of it, and the
distortions and the delusions.
And you know, I would say, likeI was I always say I was, I was
addicted to alcohol and I'm notaddicted to alcohol anymore.

(12:21):
It's like completely irrelevantin my life.
It's like being a vegan orsomething.
If I, you know people like Ijust don't want it.
And so we've had so many ofthose conversations and to hear
this, yeah, this like denial andthis real absence of reality
present.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat's happening there in that

(12:44):
mindset, because that wasn'tanything that I ever experienced
and typically I don'texperience with my clients,
because they're already cominghere, they've already accepted
that they want to change.

Amber Hollingsworth (12:56):
Well, I think when you, the further
someone is in an addiction, themore like delusional they get
it's the best way I know how todescribe it and that happens for
several reasons.
A couple are just basic meaningthey're interacting with the
world in one of two states.
They're either intoxicatedchanges how you filter the

(13:16):
universe or they're inwithdrawal, which?
Also filters, how you're takingin information.
So the way you're perceivingthings around you is altered all
the time.
So you've got that layerhappening, which is big.
But you also have another layerof you're.
You're in this when you'restruggling addiction.
You're in this constant stateof planning, scheming, using,

(13:41):
hiding it, hiding theparaphernalia, and it eats up
all of your mental space prettymuch and simultaneously you have
a lot of shame and guilt.
You're making all thesepromises to yourself, you're
breaking all these promises toyourself and you start to do
these other psychologicaldefense mechanisms to protect
against the shame and the guilt,which is you get very focused

(14:03):
on like resentment, self-pity oreverything else Everyone else
is doing wrong.
So it's like a separate kind ofself-medicating Mm.
Hmm, since the Medicaid, onething, but then I'm mad at
myself for doing that.
So then I'm psychologicallygetting deeper and deeper and
deeper into these defensemechanisms as a way of not

(14:26):
seeing what's really going on inmy own life.
So when you're dealing withsomeone in the state, you'll
know you are because you havethis instinct.
You want to grab them by theshoulders and just shake them.
When you have that feeling,then you know that's what you're
dealing with, because you'relike, are we looking at the same
picture?
And it's just, it's kind ofmaddening.

Mary Wagstaff (14:46):
Yeah, it was really like, like I said, it
really felt like he had died insome way, like the way that he
was communicating with me andwhat, and I'm I'm planning on
doing another episode more aboutthe current state, like to what
happened, and and a little bitabout kratom um itself, because
I think that, even though thisis a show about alcohol, it's a
weird thing that's out there andit's a very unassuming and I
think that it's an escalatingaddiction very quickly that a

(15:10):
lot of people don't know aboutand it's very seems very
innocent.
So what then?
Well, yeah, so I want to comeback to this.
So there was a lot of deflectionon how not necessarily I was
the problem, but kind ofjustifying the use by me

(15:31):
stressing him out or myemotional weight on him, right,
which was even more like hello,right, like you can handle this,
like what am I?
You know?
So then then there's this, alsothis guilt on me too, thinking
you know like, wow, I mean, whoam I?
What am I doing?
I'm here, I am coaching people,trying to help them, and how

(15:55):
you know, am I really impactingthis person in this way?
Where can I be on my own pageand then not showing up for and
I'm talking a lot about this onthe show now not showing up for
my own emotional needs, kind ofself-abandoning, and really
there was some guilt and blameinside of that as well.
So what would you say from thatplace then?
Is the first step for the lovedone to do?

Amber Hollingsworth (16:29):
well, I think a first step is to sort of
take a breath and back up andtry to step back in.
If you don't have any educationon it, just get some education.
Listen to a podcast and watch ayoutube video, get a book and
so you can wrap your head aroundwhat's going on.
That's going to help youinteract with whatever's
happening more strategicallyinstead of just emotionally
being pulled in, because it'sreal easy to get in what I call
like firefighter mode, which isjust dealing with the current
crisis of today, and while allthat's happening, you're just

(16:53):
building more and morefrustration, you're exhausting
yourself, you're putting yourown needs on the back burner.
Usually, if you're dealing withsomeone who has an addiction,
you're taking on way more thanyour fair share of
responsibilities and otherthings are happening.
Addiction you're taking on waymore than your fair share of
responsibilities and otherthings are happening, and so you
get caught up just livingmoment by moment and you have to
sort of back up, almost likedetach from yourself and look at

(17:13):
it from up here to get yourhead around.
Let me just back up and look atthis whole puzzle instead of
just this one little piece todayand this little piece tonight
and that kind of thing yeah it'sreally easy to and I hope it's
okay that I'm kind of using thisexample of my own life to
exemplify this, because it makessense to me.

Mary Wagstaff (17:32):
You know, you start to play the tape backwards
, actually, of like all of this.
You know, because and this isthe other thing I'm very
intuitive, like I had.
There was so many times where Iblatantly asked the question
because this guy was like theHulk, literally.
I'm like how are you doing thatright now?
It didn't even make sense, likelike a beast mode and just all

(17:56):
the signs, all the questions allof the year.
And you're like, oh my gosh.
And so you just start to thatstarts to escalate in, and so
you just start to that starts toescalate in.
You know your own emotions too.
So this was the first thing Idid.
I really the state of delusionwas what I needed to be
validated in, and that was whatyour videos really helped with

(18:16):
that.
There there is this processthat addicts will go through the
denial, the delusion and allthat.
So I was like, okay, this isnormal, it's not me, it's.
This is the process.
And then I actually and this iswhat I do for anything, even if
it's for myself I'm like, let'sget some more information so I
can have a new perspective.
And then I took it the stepback so that I could take myself

(18:39):
out of the equation and like,literally not make me part of it
at all, cause I'm not the onetaking the stuff, I'm not the
one lying, I'm not the one doingany of it.
So, getting that neutralperspective, and then I phoned a
friend this is like my newthing let's phone a friend,
cause there's a lot of shame tooaround that, especially people
that know me, know him, know oursituation, where you're like.

(19:01):
So I had, I felt like I alsowas very alone, like who can I
talk to?
That's not gonna judge thesituation or hold it against me,
but I I did phone a friend andit was good to find someone that
felt neutral and I obviouslythat's why you, your services,
exist too, because it's aneutral perspective but that

(19:22):
felt really good to just to havebe able to share, to get it out
, because it was something thatI was holding on to by myself
for the last six years, you know.
So, after the perspective, thenwhat?
What happens after that?

Amber Hollingsworth (19:40):
Well then I think you have to get a
strategy on how you're going tointeract in this situation.
For most people, the strategy,you know the first thing, is I
want to get my loved one out ofdenial and get them help.
That's usually the firstthought.
Well, actually, let me back up.
The first thought is I need toget them to get help and we skip

(20:01):
a step, and that step is tofigure out where is my loved one
in their stages of change.
That's the fancy way of sayingit, and because once you can
figure that out, then we can goback and match our strategies,
our interactions with thatperson, based on their stage of
change.
Like, for example, a big mistakepeople make is if you're

(20:21):
dealing with someone who'scompletely in denial they don't
think they have a problem at alland you're talking to them
about going to treatment,they're looking at you like
you're crazy, lunatic, you'reoverreacting, and then that
destroys your credibility intheir eyes.
So anything, any opinion youhave, anything you have to say,
any recommendation, is justautomatically just sort of

(20:42):
brushed off, as in they juststop listening to you because
they think you don't know whatyou're talking about.
They don't think you see thepicture very accurately when
you're.
Usually what's happening istrying to rush the person to
figure it out, because you cansee it coming for a million
miles away and you're like,danger, danger, you know, and
you're like, no, this ishappening.

(21:04):
Your alarms are going off.
But if they're in denial, thenyour, then your immediate
strategies all have to be abouthow do I get them to start
seeing this as a problem.
Maybe they're seeing it as aproblem, but they don't think
it's that big of a problem.
You know what do I do?
It's sort of looking at whereare they at in their stages, not
where I want them to be, butwhere are they really?
Your strategy?

(21:25):
To that On our channel we talka lot about, I say you know, I
want to get people five stepsahead and once we understand
where you are, I can tell youwhat's going to happen tomorrow
and what's going to happen nextweek and the next week, and we
can be two weeks down the roadinstead of just putting out the
fire today.
Where are we at?
Where are we going to be?
What are we going?
Grounded?

Mary Wagstaff (21:50):
or I work this like okay, I have my hand on
this instead of not controllingit, but more like okay, I got a
plan, yeah, yeah, that there is,and that's what I tell people
too, even for them personally,like there is a process, right,
and it's a learning process too.

(22:10):
So, even though you're doing itfrom the other side of the
table, the other perspectivethat, yeah, that it can be one
step at a time and you don'thave to, like you said, you
don't have to be putting outfires.
Talk to me a little bit aboutpersonal, about self-care for
the family, for the loved one,about in like, boundary setting,

(22:32):
because that's something thatwas really important for me and
is still.
I'm still kind of gettingclarity about something.
I've been talking a lot more tothe people on my, on the
podcast here too, because it'sreally important to know where
what is a non-negotiable for us,so that we can then know how to

(22:52):
proceed without letting thatsome that experience completely
take over our, our whole life Ifeel like it's.

Amber Hollingsworth (23:02):
It's really almost like two separate things
.
They're connected but, they're.
They're separate.
There's self-care and there'sboundaries so I think we'll try
to take them one at a time, whenyou have a loved one who's
struggling, you get obsessedwith fixing that problem.
The same way that person isobsessed about, whatever it is

(23:23):
they're addicted to.
And then you're in this parallelprocess.
You know they're chasing theiraddiction and you're chasing
them.
And it can get to the pointwhere it's just 24-7 takes over
everything Mentally.
You stop.
You know going out with friends.
And it can get to the pointwhere it's just 24-7 takes over
everything mentally.
You stop going out with friends, you stop doing all of your
hobbies and interests andactivities.
You wake up in the morning.
You're checking the bankaccounts to see if they've spent
money, like every waking secondeventually turns into trying to

(23:48):
figure out what they're doingtoday.
How do I stop it?
Are they lying to me, provingthat you know what?
You know all this stuff and youhave to purposefully decide to
take a break from that.
You have to, like, turn thatoff and it's not saying I'm not
going to worry about this, butyou have to take a break from it
.
I call it.
You know, when you have a frontrow seat, and especially if the

(24:12):
person lives with you, you'lldefinitely end up in this state.
You have to purposefully, eventhough your instincts don't want
to maybe go to yoga class, theymay not want to go hang out
with friends or want to do thethings that keep you centered.
You've got to do it.
You've got to like give yourselfa break from thinking about it,
because you'll just spin out ofcontrol and you have to get

(24:32):
back to what do I do to?
Take care of myself, Not just,like you know, usually when I
hear self-care, I think like geta pedicure or something, but
that's not what I mean.
It's more like keeping yourselfgrounded, you know do you
exercise?
Do you have spiritual activities?
Do you have other socialfriends that fill you up?
Do you have passions?
It's about reconnecting tothose, even though your

(24:53):
instincts are trying to shutthat down.

Mary Wagstaff (24:56):
Yeah, yeah, and everything that you know I teach
my clients on how, to you know,release alcohol is a lot of
emotional processing andemotional management.
So from that perspective, it'sit's processing emotions and
From that perspective it'sprocessing emotions.
And for me, it's knowing that Ican separate myself from the

(25:17):
equation and be in this neutralwitness place, but I can also be
in the witnessing of my ownexperience and not denying
myself that too.
So that was very important forme and still is very important
for me and still is.
Because if, yeah, like you weresaying, if you're in that front
row seat, then things just getcompounded and you're in this

(25:38):
constant spiral.
So when you do take that stepaway, it's like, oh, life opens
up again, because really, in theend, you need to have that
perspective that there is moreof life, too, than just this one
thing, although it hurts reallybad, like there's other things
going on and you have a childand you have a job and you have
all these things that alsorequire your attention and your

(26:01):
care and your being healthy.
So, yeah, super important, okay, and then what about boundaries
?
The boundaries.

Amber Hollingsworth (26:13):
I feel like boundaries are so big.
I know it's its own episode.
The place that I always startfrom is helping people
understand what a boundary is.
A boundary is not a rule.
This is where we get it wrong.
We want to set these rules andwe call them boundaries.
Like, for example, a rule mightbe you can't have drugs in this

(26:38):
house, you can't do X, Y or Z,whatever.
That's a rule you're settingand the reason it's a rule and
not a boundary, is because youcan't really enforce it.

Mary Wagstaff (26:48):
Boundaries are rules you set for yourself not
for someone else that you cancontrol An action or behavior.
You can control that.
You can control An action orbehavior you can control that.

Amber Hollingsworth (26:56):
You can control Right.
It's what you're going to doand not do not what another
person is going to do or not do.
The way I like to remember itis it's like it's okay to build
a fence around your backyard,but your neighbors get real mad
if you try to build a fencearound their backyard.

Mary Wagstaff (27:09):
Right Right, backyard, Right Right and and so
a boundary is about like ifsomeone's treating me badly, I'm
going to leave the room.

Amber Hollingsworth (27:20):
Or if maybe I have a loved one who always
calls me intoxicated after, if Ianswer after six o'clock,
they're always intoxicated.
A boundary would be, I'm justnot going to take their phone
call after a certain o'clock Not.
I'm going to answer the phoneand tell them why they shouldn't
call me after certain o'clock.
Not, I'm going to answer thephone and tell them why they
shouldn't call me after acertain o'clock and give them a
big lecture and then tell themnot to do it.
And then they do it the nextday and I pick up the phone and
then I tell them again.
That's what most people thinkof when they're thinking of

(27:44):
boundary, they're reallythinking of.
Let me tell this person this isa rule that I want you to follow
.
But the boundary really is arule for yourself.

Mary Wagstaff (27:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think it's so.
It really, when you put it inthat terms, it really is so
simple, because that's whatwe're talking about on the show
all of the time is what iswithin your control.
We have all of theseexpectations and you know ways
that we think the world shouldbe, all of these ways that are
out of our control, butessentially we ways that we
think the world should be.
All of these ways are out ofour control, but essentially, we

(28:15):
think we're setting theseboundaries, but we're just
creating rules that are going tobe broken and there's nothing
we can do about it.
Right, and that's really whatthe basis is of so much
suffering in our own personallives in general, regardless of
addiction or the reason thatpeople do drink in the first
place, is it's like life brokemy rule.
I was just I don't know ifyou're familiar with Michael

(28:36):
Singer.
He wrote the Untethered Soul.
It's amazing.
He has a podcast, he does theselectures, but he's like, life
is always going to bump upagainst you, but it's you, and
then everything that's not you,right, like?
So everything's not us, and wereally have to get super clear
about what is in within ourcontrol, which is our own

(28:57):
thinking, our own emotions andour own behavior, and so that's
really the place that we'retaking boundaries from.
I love that and something thatI feel like, since I've been
exploring these a little bitmore like deeper, for where I am
now too, because I think ourboundaries change too growing
and evolving and havingdifferent roles in our lives is

(29:18):
thinking about my personalvalues is a really good way for
me to kind of know my ownboundaries and then like also
not be breaking my ownboundaries.
That's a really good place tostart.

Amber Hollingsworth (29:29):
Right, right.
So give us an example, Mary, ofa boundary you might set for
yourself.

Mary Wagstaff (29:35):
Oh, that's so good.
Well, something that I've beenworking on is my sleep hygiene,
so something that happens inthis house.
I have a nine-year-old and youknow we love our bedtime routine
.
It's really important for him.
Matthew kind of gets him up andout the door, especially during
school time, and I typically dobedtime.
But I can't be.
I'm not going to bed at 10o'clock, so it's not a rule.

(29:58):
I mean it's hard with kids,right, it is kind of a rule.
But even with Matthew too, I'mlike nine o'clock.
I'm not available after nineo'clock because that's when I
will be in bed.
But I'm not saying anythingabout like there's no
consequences or punishment be inbed.
But I'm not saying anythingabout like there's no
consequences or punishment.
But Emmett loves for me to tuckhim in.

(30:20):
So if he doesn't get startmobilizing between like seven
and eight, which I'm availablefor him to do the whole thing,
then he misses his window ofopportunity for me to tuck him
in, like I'm just going to be.

Amber Hollingsworth (30:27):
I'm going to be in bed.
So good, right, like, I'mavailable for tuck-ins anytime
between this time and this time.
Yep, and that's different thansaying you have to be in bed at
this time.
Yeah, and that's the difference.
And I feel like that's wherepeople get the most frustrated,
because they think they'resetting healthy boundaries, but
they're really trying to controlsomeone else's behavior and, of

(30:50):
course, that never works.
So you feel like someone'scrossing my boundaries all the
time.
Well, you're really the onlyone that can cross your own
boundaries.
Yeah, it's true, it's yourfence.
You open the gate or not openthe gate, you know?

Mary Wagstaff (31:02):
Yeah, I love that .
I love thinking about it's likemy fence of my queendom, like
this is how I.
You know how I want tostructure it and what works
really well, especially becausekids.
You know how I want tostructure it and what works
really well, especially becausekids, you know we do have to
guide them a little bit, as Imake sure this is a little
tangent, but I make sure thatI'm actually available and
present for him, so, like thatthere's story time or whatever
it is, but he really reallyloves it and it does work when

(31:26):
I'm available and present andI'm like, okay, this is the
window that starts now and lethim know because he's not paying
attention to time.
It's been very motivating forhim because he wants those
snuggles and the back rubs andthe thing so Right.

Amber Hollingsworth (31:42):
It's more of a positive reinforcement from
a parenting perspective, yes,and less like a controlling
mechanism.

Mary Wagstaff (31:50):
Yeah, absolutely so, there's.
There's boundaries and whathappens if you know, something I
see happen and this is kind ofmaybe less.
You know, there's, like we said, there's a spectrum of use and
dependency.
So it's like what is the impactof this other person, of this

(32:11):
other person drinking?
So say, this other person isyou know they're drinking out in
the like we'll just use alcoholas an example.
They're drinking out in theopen.
You're not drinking, they're notblowing money, they're not
necessarily doing a lot of likenegative behavior, but it still

(32:31):
is to a point that when youinteract with that person it's
annoying, like you're there.
You know they're not evennecessarily intoxicating.
I mean some, you know, we, Iknow with one drink, people can
act different, they change.
They aren't the same presentperson, right?
So what is your take on that?
On, you know work, maybe it'snot as extreme where there's

(32:54):
this like kind of interventionmoment needed, but you, you're
growing, you're evolving andyou're still in relationship
with this other person that isstill engaging in the way that
you maybe both once engagedtogether right.

Amber Hollingsworth (33:09):
I think that that's it's.
It's really hard to get throughto someone who's in that state,
because you're probably theonly one that notices it, like
if you're the partner and theylive with you because no one
else is going to see anythingabout their behaviors being a
problem.
And so if you approach it likeyou're drinking too much or you
shouldn't be drinking every dayagain, you're going to lose

(33:30):
credibility with a person that'sfunctioning the way you're
describing, because I'mpicturing in my head like a
high-functioning person.
They go to work, they pay theirbills.
They go to soccer practice, theydo all the things, but they're
still drinking at night and thatmaybe changes them.
Maybe they just come home andthey have drinks and then they
just go to sleep.
So it feels like you're byyourself all the time.

(33:51):
Or maybe they drink and theyget kind of obnoxious and they
think they're funny.
And you don't think they'refunny.
It doesn't even have to be likethey turn into a monster, right
, and it's really hard to getthrough to that other person.
Um, if they don't have any other, like if the world isn't giving

(34:13):
back anywhere else other thanyou, that's the fastest way to
get in what I call like thevillain role, the bad guy role.
It's like then it's like well,you're the only one that has a
problem with it and you know, Ipay the bills, I do this, I do
that.
What are you talking about?
That's how they're going to seeit.
The best way to interact withthat, if you're at that level,

(34:35):
is to do more of a positivereinforcement thing, like what
you were saying.
Like if they come home andthey're not drinking, say, you
don't even have to likenecessarily speak to the fact
that they're drinking or notdrinking, because that can make
someone defensive, but you cansay like if they came home and
you had a really great dinner,you can even say the next thing
man, I, I really enjoyed beingwith you.
I felt like we had a greatconversation.
If they love affection andthey're sober, you know, be

(34:57):
affectionate, be flirty, holdtheir hand or what you know so
it's more of a positivereinforcement and if you're
trying to get them to see thatmaybe it is more of a problem,
what you can do I hate to saythis, but you can almost like I
don't know what I want to say,but I want to say like set them

(35:17):
up for failure not in a bad waybut like say, hey, can you help
me with X, Y or Z when you gethome today?
Right, and now you realize thatthey may not do that.
But once they realize thatthey're not functioning and
holding up theirresponsibilities at home at the
end of the day, their familyresponsibilities that'll start
to get their attention a lotmore.

(35:38):
Like if you say, hey, can youdo this and that, and then
they're not able to do that, orthey say they will, but then
they don't.
If that happens over the courseof several times, that's going
to force them to see the issue,versus you trying to take up all
the slack and then tell themthat there's a problem.

Mary Wagstaff (35:55):
Right, yeah, yeah , oh yeah, I love that.
Can I count?

Amber Hollingsworth (35:57):
on you for this.
I'm going to go do this.
Can I count on you for thatRight?
And then that makes them haveto see the discrepancy between
their functioning level, whatthey think they should do and
what they're actually doing,versus you fixing it all for
them, doing it all for them andthen being mad at them for it.
Right.

Mary Wagstaff (36:15):
Yes, yeah.
And then just and also yeah,not doing it right, not
necessarily picking up the slack, so that that gap can be there.

Amber Hollingsworth (36:23):
So they can see.
That's, that's more of what Iwould call like a natural
consequence.
It's like the information thatcomes from the world and not
from you.
You, you want to be to and thisisn't 100% possible, but to the
best that you can.
You want to let the world bethe bad guy and you be the good
guy.

Mary Wagstaff (36:40):
Yeah.

Amber Hollingsworth (36:41):
Give them information and then you can
respond with empathy.
People figure it out so muchfaster.
That's a formula that reallyhelps people figure things out.

Mary Wagstaff (36:49):
Yeah Well, and I think that's a little bit thank
you for that out.
Yeah Well, and I think that's alittle bit Thank you for that.
And I love the idea of thepositive reinforcement, of not
making it about alcohol or druguse but just pulling out like
why it's better when you're bothsober, when you're both totally
available.
And you know, I one of thethings that I think is

(37:09):
interesting is people talk aboutalcohol socially even being a
connect, a catalyst forconnection.
And you know, I have my ownbeliefs and it's like, really,
though there it's not anauthentic moment.
You know, there's part of youthat is not fully present with
that because there's some sortof inhibition.
So, kind of pulling that outlike this authentic, like oh,

(37:32):
we're able to really connect inthis way that I felt like we
hadn't before.

Amber Hollingsworth (37:35):
So, yeah, I think that's a really, that's
really awesome, that's about thethings that are going well or
not well, and not even connectedto the substance.

Mary Wagstaff (37:43):
Yes, let them connect that dot.

Amber Hollingsworth (37:45):
They know if they were sober or not.

Mary Wagstaff (37:46):
Yes.

Amber Hollingsworth (37:47):
It was so great because you didn't drink
yesterday.
Because as soon as you say that, that feels antagonistic to
them and then they feelimmediately defensive and if
they didn't do so great, they'llconnect the dot about whether
it was related to their drinking.

Mary Wagstaff (38:01):
Yes, absolutely Don't connect it for them, let
them connect that.

Amber Hollingsworth (38:05):
You put the two dots on the paper and they
let them connect it.

Mary Wagstaff (38:08):
Yes, yeah, absolutely, because I mean, I
truly believe that, even thoughsomeone might be in denial in
their own experience, I thinkthat every person that is using
to an extent that other peopleare noticing, I believe, does
have a whisper inside of themthat it's not working.

Amber Hollingsworth (38:28):
I mean, I really do, I totally agree with
you, and when you're giving methese scenarios, I'm assuming
that this person, this otherperson, has some level of
problem.

Mary Wagstaff (38:37):
And the reason.

Amber Hollingsworth (38:38):
I guess I'm assuming that is because, in my
experience of working withpeople who have addictions, when
they're in recovery theyusually don't mind it, like,
let's say, somebody's quitdrinking.
They usually don't mind iftheir spouse drinks occasionally
.
Like it doesn't even botherthem and they're happy for their
spouse to order a glass ofwhatever at dinner.
Maybe not in the first fewweeks they get sober but like
after you know they're stable,they don't mind it.

(39:00):
What they do mind is if it'shappening all the time or if the
person's getting sloppy.
So when I find one of myclients in recovery is getting
really frustrated with theirpartner, it's not because their
partner have one drink or twodrinks.
They really, they really don'tusually have an issue with that
it's.
It's because their partner'sdoing what it is automatically.
Yeah, it's it's a habitualthing for sure.

(39:20):
Yeah, I'm assuming in thesescenarios that there's a bit of
a problem there, not just.

Mary Wagstaff (39:25):
Yeah, well, yeah.
And that's kind of like theempowered sobriety that I work
with with my clients istypically they.
It's really about them and theexperience and the results they
want, even if it's their partner, if it's social, if it's
whatever.
And sometimes things do changenaturally, Like you stop hanging
out with certain groups ofpeople naturally, just because
you're like, oh, there wasn'tthat depth of connection or I go

(39:47):
different places.
Now, when it's your spouse,it's a little different scenario
because there is a more of acommitment.
You know there's a lot ofthings entangled in that and so
we really work on OK.
I mean, this just happened.
Where I had a client go out waslike the first time on a date
night, and the husband ordered aglass of wine and she didn't,
it was like a big breakthroughmoment for her.

(40:08):
Now, if they never could haveany experiences where he wasn't
drinking and she, you know, orwhere he was always drinking and
she wasn't, now that couldpotentially be problematic.

Amber Hollingsworth (40:19):
Oh yeah, that's different, right you?

Mary Wagstaff (40:20):
know like if there's never like a special
occasion where it's like we canboth be sober together, it's
like, okay, well, why?
But no, it's really about thisempowered sobriety that these
are the results I want and theyhave nothing to do really with
anyone else.
But yeah, it can be annoying,frankly.
So, yes, I think it is more ofthe scenario that I'm presenting

(40:40):
to you is definitely more of ahabitual.

Amber Hollingsworth (40:43):
You can't connect to someone who's
intoxicated when you're notintoxicated.

Mary Wagstaff (40:47):
Yeah.

Amber Hollingsworth (40:47):
You really are on two different wavelengths
.
And it won't bother you if it'severy now and then.
But if it's like my person isalways intoxicated and I'm not,
it's like now we really are kindof misaligned.
Yeah, exactly.

Mary Wagstaff (41:01):
Yeah, and what I found too that's so fascinating
is when people do stay in theirown lane and in their own
experience that literallyprobably like 99% of the time,
it does impact the other person,the spouse and the relationship
, because a lot of times peopleare drinking together Sometimes
that's how they form theirrelationship to begin with,

(41:21):
where the other person alwaysstops.
Usually there's a little bit ofthis defense moment where their
use can kind of peak on thespouse level, like they're like
oh, like I'll show them I canstill handle this, and then they
want to kind of join the partybecause they see all of the
benefits of it and where there'sa deeper potential for a deeper

(41:43):
connection.
So I always just say, likeyou're changing the rules of the
game a little bit of how youguys used to interact, so just
give it time.
There's a transitionary periodand like let it, you know, like
this, just stay positive andcreate your boundaries for
yourself.
So so I feel like that naturalconsequences is I don't know how

(42:04):
much you work with attachmentstyles in your work at all Seems
a little bit like that too,where, if one person because
I've been talking a lot aboutattachment styles and just
thinking about it in my life.
If one person disengages fromthat push-pull of anxious
attachment and avoidantattachment which is the dynamic
in my household and steps intothat secure attached place, then

(42:28):
the other person's just kind ofleft with their own immature
behavior.

Amber Hollingsworth (42:36):
Right, it's like if someone's yelling and
then you don't yell back, theykind of notice that they're
yelling so much quicker, right,right.
They're like, oh, I feel kindof silly, whereas if you engage
with it then it's, you know, itjust escalates and escalates.

Mary Wagstaff (42:48):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Can you talk a little bit?
I mean, do you find that thereis any one attachment style that
is more problematic foraddiction than another?
Is that correlated at all?

Amber Hollingsworth (43:03):
I talk about attachment styles a lot in
relationships to substances.
I mean in relationships torelationships.
But I'm trying to think ifthere's one attachment style
that's more prone to substances,yeah, I mean, I would say any
of the ones that aren't thesecure one.
If I had to guess, I don't knowwhat the?
Research says Right, Becauseeither end of that spectrum, you

(43:25):
know, but for two oppositekinds of reasons usually.

Mary Wagstaff (43:28):
Right.

Amber Hollingsworth (43:29):
But still would be more prone.
A secure attachment protectsyou from developing addictions.
I do know that.

Mary Wagstaff (43:38):
Yes, yes.

Amber Hollingsworth (43:40):
Well, that's what neurochemistry that
protects you.

Mary Wagstaff (43:43):
Yeah, and that's what I've been talking about so
much lately.
It's like if you are in anunbothered, secure, attached,
calm space and it doesn't meanyou don't ever have emotions
that are bigger but if you know,if you have that capacity to
hold them with these tools, thenthere's really no need for
drinking.
I mean like, yes, alcohol is anaddictive chemical, but it just

(44:05):
becomes so much less ofappealing and a requirement
because you're like I can handlethis, because you feel so much
more regulated.

Amber Hollingsworth (44:13):
Yeah, you don't need an external
regulation nearly as much.

Mary Wagstaff (44:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I just kind of want to comeback to this because I feel
like a lot of what we talkedabout from really extreme, like
you know, people in denial, kindof in a delusional state from
the person on the other side,when you aren't the one pushing,
when you're not the onepursuing, when you're not the

(44:38):
one saying you, you, you, youneed to do this pushing.
When you're not the onepursuing, when you're not the
one saying you, you, you, youneed to do this, then what
happens when you take that stepback is the person can't, you're
not.
The problem now, right fromanother perspective, and that's
where those natural consequencescome in.
So I think for the wholespectrum, whether, no matter
what end of the spectrum theaddiction is at, when you don't

(45:02):
make it necessarily about youand your relationships and how
could you do this to me, andthis is what you always do when
you're drinking or you didn't dothis then there's only that now
that person can't project ontoyou, they can only reflect onto
themselves more.

Amber Hollingsworth (45:19):
Well said, that's exactly right.
Yeah, okay, they don't get tofocus on you as the problem
right, yes.
It's the way I envision it is.
It's like if this person isrunning to the cliff and there's
big spikes at the bottom,you're standing in front waving
your arms and yelling andscreaming don't, danger, don't?

(45:39):
I just think.
Who's this crazy person here?
Step out of the way.
They'll probably notice thatthere's a cliff and some spikes
there.

Mary Wagstaff (45:47):
Right, I love that.
Yeah, it's so good, and thattakes a lot of self-discipline
or not even discipline, butreflection and awareness and the
ability to maybe be wrong, theability to open your mind to
something new.
I know I've had to do that formyself Like what don't I know,
and how can this benefit me inother areas of my life?

(46:10):
Right, because it's always animpact.
So I could talk to you forever,but I had this question down
about the difference betweencompassion and enabling, and I'm
sure a lot of people have heardthe term enabling.
But one of the things and maybeI can make it a little bit more
specific too is a lot of peoplewho do couples that do like

(46:32):
drink together, which wassomething that Matthew and I did
.
It was a big part of ourrelationship.
We had decided to not quittogether because we were it was
like easy to enable.
We were enabling each other fordrinking and partying and all
the things.
So I guess those are twoquestions what do you think
about the idea of like quittingtogether as a couple and what

(46:58):
are the benefits or problemswith that, because I have my own
theories about it.
Um, yeah, and then I guessmaybe there's a question about
enabling.

Amber Hollingsworth (47:05):
I love the idea of it, I'm just not sure
how it works out verypractically in real life, like
it sounds good on the surface,like you know if you and your
bestie go on a diet or somethingit sounds like oh, we'll be
here to support each other.
But the problem with it is isthat you're both very vulnerable
at that point and you're bothkind of weak to it, and so it
doesn't take.
As soon as one person falls,the other person's going down

(47:28):
Right.
So when you're early in it, youneed to attach yourself to
someone who's further down theroad than you are, so that
there's a stability there.
You know, because it doesn't assoon as one, you're each just
waiting for the other one to sayhey, you want to get a drink?
And as soon as it said, it's onyou know you don't have enough

(47:48):
strength recovery strength, yetto support each other.

Mary Wagstaff (47:51):
Yeah yeah.
It's like you don't takefinancial advice from someone
that's broke you know, rightyeah.
And you have your own brain, youknow.
That's why I say is like youhave two different brains, you
know.
Right, yeah, and you have yourown brain, you know you.
This is why I say is like youhave two different brains.
You know, you're gonna you'regonna have different beliefs,
different traumas, differenttriggers, and you gotta figure
that out yourself.
You know, because you're inyour own body.

(48:12):
So what?
What do you see if, so say,someone's not drinking or or I
mean, I guess, even if they are.
But how can someone reallysupport their partner the most
through the lens of compassionversus enabling?
And how do you see partnersenabling in a way that's just
not, you know, that's not usefulview enabling pretty different

(48:39):
than what most addictioncounselors usually.

Amber Hollingsworth (48:42):
When people think enabling, they think, um,
giving someone money, lettingsomeone live in your house, um,
basically it's like I'msupporting them and I'm helping
their addiction continue.
But I personally feel like themost enabling thing you can do
is play the villain.
And here's why I think that Ifyou give someone $20, they may

(49:02):
go buy whatever with it, okay.

Mary Wagstaff (49:05):
But then it's gone.

Amber Hollingsworth (49:05):
$20 is gone in five minutes.
If you yell and scream and actlike a maniac, they will use
that as an emotional reason tokeep using for 10 or 15 years
against you.
I mean, they hold it againstyou forever and so it's like I
don't want to give them theemotional currency to keep using
.
Now, if you're making thingssuper easy for them, meaning

(49:28):
cleaning up the messes they'remaking, if you're bailing them
out of jail and paying for theirlawyers and calling their
teachers and asking for one morechance and taking care of their
kids when they're supposed totake care of their kids, you
know you're doing all that stuffthen you're protecting them
from the natural consequencesand then you're going to be mad
because they're going to be indenial.
But it's only the naturalconsequences that can get them

(49:48):
out of denial.
Yeah, not only is thatproblematic, but while that's
happening, you're going to bemore and more resentful that
you're doing that, and thenyou're going to be interacting
with them in a real negative way.
And so now we have the oppositeformula.
You're not letting the worldshow them what's happening, but
you're showing them that you'remad and angry and controlling,

(50:09):
and so that's what gives themthe skewed view that you're the
problem, not the addiction.
So you want to reverse that.
I'm not as hardcore about don'tgive them money or don't do
this nice thing for them.
If you got to hold back onething, hold back being the

(50:30):
villain, because that I promiseyou keeps them stuck longer than
the other stuff.
Yes, so you'll know thedifference.
In enabling, I call it helpingversus enabling Helping.
Anytime you help anyone withanything, you leave with a
really good feeling about it.
You feel great for the day.

Mary Wagstaff (50:43):
Yeah.

Amber Hollingsworth (50:45):
When you are doing something for someone
else and you leave feelingresentful.
Now you know you're in theenabling category because you're
doing something you don't wantto be doing.

Mary Wagstaff (50:53):
Yeah.

Amber Hollingsworth (50:55):
You haven't had to do it.
Yes, if you're trying to figureout, am I being helpful?
Or am I enabling?
Just take a minute, check inwith yourself and ask how do I
feel about this?
Yeah, If you feel good about it, then you're fine If you don't
feel good about it, then you'rein trouble.

Mary Wagstaff (51:13):
Yeah, and that is something that we talk about
all the time here is our ownbodies, our intuition,
especially as women.
You know I'm obviously gearedmore towards women here, and
this perspective, amber, is sopowerful for everything else
that I'm talking about on theshow too, which is about our own
, and I'm just going to say thishere for my, for the audience,
is like feminine reclamation andhow I believe that a lot of

(51:37):
ways that we've lost some of thepleasure of being a woman has
been through, you know, thiskind of we've been carrying this
giant mental load, and this iswhy a lot of my clients are
drinking, because they're notonly they're caring for the
household, but they're also outin the workplace.
And we want to have equalityand we want to be able to have

(51:59):
all those things.
But some of the innate waysthat women function is through
pleasure, through receiving,through creativity, and when you
start micromanaging, especiallylike your male counterpart, and
you become the villain andyou're doing all the things and
then resentful for it later,well, that never gives them an
opportunity to rise to theoccasion and have that natural

(52:20):
consequence.
And this is just so important inthe conversation with my people
, because this is a big reasonthat they're drinking because
they're over-functioning,they're overwhelmed and they're
under-pleasured.
And so if we can get to thatplace, regardless of if their
counterparts are drinking orwhether or not alcohol is in the
situation, then the need foralcohol to find relief becomes

(52:42):
less.
So we have to look at thecircumstances.
Like I said earlier, where areyou in control or where are you
trying to control what's notyours to begin with?
Right?
So whether or not they have anaddiction, it's such a great
point and where I'm reallytaking a lot of my content and
my people is to this place ofbeing in the receptive mode and,

(53:03):
in your pleasure, can allowsomeone else to meet you where
maybe you didn't make space for.

Amber Hollingsworth (53:10):
Especially if your partner is a man men
want to be in here.
So if you're always the hero,the effeminate energy, you're
not giving them the chance to bethe hero.

Mary Wagstaff (53:20):
Yes.

Amber Hollingsworth (53:22):
And then you're feeling resentful,
they're feeling resentful and,yeah, I love what you're talking
about.
I don't talk a lot about it onmy channel, but, um, it is an
interest area of mine yeah,absolutely I feel I say all the
time like we ruined it forourselves.
You know, we're trying to do itall.
It's our fault, I blame.
I blame us.
Well, yeah, and I we're tryingto do it all, it's our fault.

Mary Wagstaff (53:41):
I blame us.
Well, yeah, and I think we'rein a beautiful, beautiful space
where we can kind of see it.
We don't have to go backwards.
It's like, yes, we have accessto so much, but what have we?
You know, I always say we, inthe fight to prove what we
weren't, we lost, what we wereRight.
I get chills, you know, and soit's like it's okay to love

(54:02):
being in the caring role, in thenurturing role, but you want to
be nurtured too.
And that's the place where Ithink we've just like kind of
had our dukes up in, like youknow, an earlier feminist
movement, like having to fightour way to the top, and I just
don't think and it's, and Ithink it has ruined a lot of
that masculine, feminine dynamicand the um, it's been
demasculating for a lot of menwho now don't even know how to

(54:24):
lead.
And this is a movement, andthen they're turning to
substances.
So it's all interwoven, right,I could talk to you forever.
Your work is amazing, can you?
Oh, I did want to ask you aboutthe title of your show, if we
can kind of end on that note andwhat, what, where that came

(54:44):
from, and yeah, Well, when Ifirst started my YouTube channel
, I was calling it likesomething basic, like addiction
recovery resources I think, andI was having trouble building a
YouTube audience.

Amber Hollingsworth (54:59):
This wasn't really the reason.
But I was talking to my sister,who's super techie and she said
, well, you know, some peoplemight not subscribe to it
because it's called that.
You know, they may not wantthat on their profiles or
whatever.
So she said, call it somethingthat's like people in that space
would kind of understand, butother people wouldn't even like
if they saw that they wouldn'teven know anything.
So there was a kid when I firststarted counseling and he used

(55:22):
to always say you hit yourbottom when you put your shovel
down.
So put the shovel down as areference to you.
Don't have to hit bottom, youdon't have to burn all your
bridges you don't have to ruinyour whole life and lose
everything.
To walk away from this oh, Ilove that when to put the shovel
down, and a big part of ourgoal on the channel is helping
people and families do thatbefore they lose everything.

Mary Wagstaff (55:44):
Yep.

Amber Hollingsworth (55:45):
And waiting until all that horrible stuff
happens.

Mary Wagstaff (55:49):
Yeah, that's such a great note to end on, because
I always tell people I did anepisode recently like what rock
bottom is, and it's like itcould be right now for you.
You know what I mean.
Like I understand that there isthis idea of like kind of
losing everything and all theseother consequences that you have
to rebuild, but they're, youknow, just breaking your own
heart, being disappointed inyourself every day, could be

(56:09):
your rock bottom.
So, ladies, it's okay, you canput the shovel down.
There's someone, a friend ofmine, used to tell me guilt is
like a bag of bricks.
All you have to do is set itdown, and I think it's a similar
concept.
So, amber, just tell everyonewhere they can find you.
We'll obviously put it all inthe show notes and any other
messages.
You have to sign everyone off.

Amber Hollingsworth (56:30):
The best place to find me is on YouTube.
The channel is called Put theShovel Down.
I am on all the other socialmedias, but my main platform is
YouTube.
There's more than a thousandvideos on there.
Whether you're looking forresources for yourself in the
journey of overcoming addictionor helping someone else, there's
playlists for every angle youwant to look at this issue from.

Mary Wagstaff (56:50):
Yeah.

Amber Hollingsworth (56:51):
Like free, it's easy to access, so I think
that's the best places.

Mary Wagstaff (56:55):
Yeah, awesome, yeah, amazing, amazing resources
.
That really helped me and ifyou're open-minded enough, you
could look at what it is likefrom another perspective to be
in relationship with someone whois, you know, drinking to an
extent that doesn't feel goodanymore and that, I think, could
give you a lot if you'rewilling to look in that area.

(57:18):
That takes a big leap of Idon't know bravery for some
people.
So, amber, thank you so muchfor all the work you do.
I know it's life-changing andthe impact is like you will
never know the ripple effect ofit.
So thank you for being here.
It was really nice to sharewith you today.
Thank you for having me andthank you for all the great work
you're doing.
Okay, thank you.
Bye, everyone.

(57:39):
Hey, so before you go, I've gotsomething for you that works
faster than pouring a drink andit actually gives you your power
back.
It's called 60 Seconds to Calm,and inside I share six quick,
in the moment phrases to helpyou end the mental tug of war,
soothe any emotion or urge andcome back to yourself without

(58:00):
overthinking.
So, whether your habit is winescrolling or snapping, this is
going to get you back in yourbody in under a minute and it's
all free and it works.
I also added, for being such anamazing listener to the show, a
couple of surprise bonuses.
So grab it right here with thelink in the show notes, or head
over to marywagstaffcoachcom.