September 11, 2025 • 40 mins
In this special episode of Stop the World, David Wroe speaks with Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, the Belarusian democracy advocate who leads a government-elect from exile. After dictator Alexander Lukashenka declared himself winner of the 2020 election despite sweeping evidence that the people had chosen Sviatlana, 1.5 million Belarusians took to the streets, sparking a brutal crackdown and Sviatlana’s deportation to neighbouring Lithuania.
Sviatlana says that the fight for freedom has made her more human, that it’s “not just about politics—it's about love. It's about dedication. It’s a fight not only for your family, but for your country.”
She tells the story of how 2020 unfolded, the nature of the regime and its repression, Lukashenka’s deep dependence on Vladimir Putin—and the price that Putin extracts—the importance of Ukraine’s liberation, the role of the United States and the security of Europe. She also shares her own story, including the five-year imprisonment of her husband, Siarhei Tsikhanouski, an activist and blogger whom she replaced at the last moment as a 2020 candidate after Siarhei was abruptly detained on trumped-up charges.
As the interview took place, news was breaking that Poland was forced to shoot down several Russian drones, at least some of which came from Belarus—a reminder of what’s at stake in both Belarus’ and Ukraine’s fights for freedom.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Stop the world. Welcome to Stop the World, the
Aspie Podcast. I'm Olivia Nelson and.
I'm David Rowe. Dave, we have a very special
episode for our listeners this week.
We sure do. This week I spoke with Sveatlana
Tsikkunuskaya, the President Elect of Belarus.
She's been living in exile in neighbouring Lithuania for the
(00:22):
past five years. She ran against the Belarusian
dictator Alexander Lukashenko in2020, and according to
international observers, she wondespite all the obstacles
Lukashenko put in her way. Lukashenko declared victory
anyway, of course, and that sparked massive protests in
Belarus, to which the regime responded with a brutal
(00:43):
crackdown. It's worth pointing out that as
we were recording, this news wasbreaking, that Poland was forced
to shoot down Russian drones that flew deep into its
airspace. And then at least some of these
came from Belarus, which under Lukashenko is a client state of
Vladimir Putin's. So that's a reminder of what's
at stake here. It is in our conversations Fiat
Lana explains how the 2020 election unfolded, why she ran
(01:05):
in the place of her husband Serhey, who was he's.
He was an activist in Blogger. He got thrown in gaol right
before the election. She ran instead and her husband
said hey ended up spending five years in a cell in very brutal,
very harsh conditions. She talks about the ruthless
methods the regime uses to repress the Belarusian people,
(01:25):
how the freedom movement that she leads has managed to
organise itself in exile. She also talks about
Lukashenko's relationship with Putin, the importance of
Ukraine, the role of the United States in negotiating with
Lukashenko, wider European security and the impact on her
own family of the life that she didn't quite choose but has
taken on because she felt that Belarus freedom demanded it.
(01:48):
Yeah. We certainly covered a lot of
ground. It's compelling listening and it
gives insights into the human impacts of dictatorships and
state repression. Svetlana is a true inspiration,
Dave. She's very understandably become
a globally respected advocate for social and political
freedoms and human rights, and we were very grateful to have
her on the podcast. She is that indeed, And we were
that indeed. So enough from us, here's
(02:08):
Svetlana Sikkanuskaya. Svetlana Sikkanuskaya, President
Elect of Belarus, thanks so muchfor joining us.
It's an honour to have you on STOP THE WORLD.
Hello everyone. I want to start with a recent
recap. 2020 was a pivotal momentfor Belarus, for the opposition,
(02:29):
for you personally. Just give us a snapshot of what
happened back then and how it's shaped events over the past five
years. Now actually, in 2020, something
extraordinary happened in Belarus.
For the first time in decades, people from all like walks of
life, young and old, workers andprofessionals from cities and
(02:53):
small towns stood together and demanded changes in in our
country. And it wasn't just about
elections at that moment. It was about mostly dignity,
about reclaiming actually our future.
And when I decided to run in theelection, it wasn't part of my
like, you know, political plan. You know, I stepped in because
(03:15):
of my husband Sidihi, who was declared his candidacy and he
was immediately arrested. You know, that I wasn't a
politician. I was mother teacher, you know
something who hold like quiet life until that that very point.
But I couldn't stay silent when the regime tried to silence my
(03:36):
husband and silence all of us. I ran in his place and something
actually unexpected happened. People rallied around me and you
know, it's I became the voice ofof their hope.
Actually independent observers agreed that I won that
elections. But Lukashanka declared himself
the winner, as actually he always did.
(03:58):
And what followed was the largest peaceful uprising in
Belarusian history. About 1.5 million Belarusians
came out for peaceful protest. Just let me remind that the
population of Belarus is about 9million people in total.
And you know, the courage I saw those days, you know, stills
(04:18):
still moves me at this very moment.
People knew that they could be beaten or they could be arrested
and yet they like stood all. However, you know, Putin came to
Lukashenko's eight. He provided Belarus and dictator
with the all possible assistance, including military
assistance. Actually Russian troops were
stationed at the borders ready to enter Belarus.
(04:41):
And as the result of this, maybethere was no split of elites at
this moment. And of course, the regime
answered with the brutality, mass arrests, torture, forced
exile. Several peaceful protesters were
killed during that period, shortor beaten to death during
(05:01):
torture. I myself was forced out of the
country like many others. But, you know, honestly
speaking, those events reshaped our national identity.
You know, at that moment, we stopped being afraid, maybe.
And even now, five years later, this spirit of uprising lives on
(05:22):
and is the foundation of everything we've built since,
you know, our institutions, our resistance, and our vision for
democratic Belarus. And is it still evident within
Belarus itself? Do you still see it there in the
people? And in what way do you see it?
Of course, we cannot see uprising umbrellas in the
(05:45):
streets of Belarus at the moment, because for five years
Lukashenko through his instruments of intimidating
people, of repressions, this regime managed to how, you know,
to silence people, you know, butpeople's movement lives
underground till now. We, there are small acts of
(06:07):
sabotage, small acts of resistance.
We get a lot of information frompeople on the ground.
So people are not just waiting when changes will come to
Belarus. We are preparing and the people
on the ground doing everything possible they can in such
circumstances to help those who can be more vocal.
(06:28):
I mean, you've given us a picture already of the nature of
the regime. You talked about the torture,
the beatings, the the repression, murder,
imprisonment. Tell us a bit more about how
Lukashenko has so effectively held on to power, how he has
repressed systematically the Belarusian people for I think,
(06:50):
well, 31 years that he's been inpower.
You know, Lukashanka's regime isbuilt entirely on lies,
repressions and and fear. It is like personalist
dictatorship where one man clings to power at all costs.
You know, for this 31 years, as he, as you said, he has
(07:11):
destroyed every independent institution, the courts, the
media, the education system, civil society, and he holds fake
elections, you know, to create the illusion of legitimacy.
But in reality, he governs only through violence and coercion.
What is worse, the regime has surrendered Belarus serenity to
(07:33):
Moscow. Lukashenko stays in power today
only because of Putin. In return, he has turned our
country into like military outposts.
Russian soldiers train on our land.
This month there are joint strategic exercises with Russia.
Zappa 2025 Russian nuclear weapon are deployed in our
(07:54):
country. And it's Lukashenko doesn't
serve to Belarusian interests. He serves only to his own
survival. And you know, for order
Belarusians life under this regime is really nightmare.
We live like in Gulag times, in Stalin's time, repressions
because thousands have been arrested, many are tortured,
(08:15):
some people die in prison. You know you can be detained for
for everything, for reading independent news or showing
support to Ukraine can land you in gaol.
Even buying a Christmas present for a child of political
prisoner, it's it's a crime in our country.
So this is not a governance. It's like hostage taken and our
(08:38):
whole people is being held captive by the dictator who
answers to the Kremlin, not to his people.
Now the the the movement that you lead from exile is more than
an opposition, as you say. By any objective measure you won
against all the odds the 2020 election.
(08:59):
So you're really leading a government in waiting.
Just explain how you and your colleagues have sustained that
and remain sort of cohesive and organised from exile.
It's quite an unusual thing, it seems to me.
You know, after 2020, of course we knew that we couldn't,
(09:20):
couldn't wait passively, you know, for change.
We had to organise. And for this five years we
created like government in exile.
It is consisted of office of president elect.
We have united transitional cabinets as Prota government and
coordination Council as Prota parliament.
And it's not just symbolic structures for us, you know,
(09:42):
they are the, the backbone or for future democratic state.
We actually studying how to livein, in, in democracy.
So our, our institutions are made up of politicians, civil
society leaders, legal experts, even defectors from the regime.
(10:05):
We provide humanitarian support,legal aid, policy development
and international advocacy. We coordinate with the Belarus
and communities in exile. We maintain contacts with the
activists inside the country. Even under such harsh
repressions in Belarus. Many countries, you know,
(10:27):
recognise me as legitimate representative over Belarus.
We have formal relationship withthe European Union, with
national parliament and with theinstitutions like Council of
Europe, for example. Even we actually achieved made
many unprecedented steps. You know, we launched strategic
(10:48):
dialogue with the USA. We are like people nation
without state. Our state is seized by a
dictator, but we are building like our like protestate at the
moment. We have strategic consultations
with the Canada and the UK. We have drafted new democratic
constitution and just to, to explain people how our country
(11:12):
can, can act after the changes. What is one of our essential
achievements, We started to produce new Belarusian passports
for those who are in exile. You know, that's a regime
deprived Belarusian, Belarusian people who live in exile the
right to renew our documents andwe, if our passport is expired,
(11:35):
be like stateless people. So that's why we are producing
this, this kind of documents. It's, it's still not recognised
politically. But we, you know, we understood
that it will be rather difficultproject, but we have no way out
of this situation at the moment.In other words, we are not just
(11:56):
waiting for freedom to come. You know, we are building this
foundation right now. We are showing to Bill Rusen's
possible future if we are in Europe, if we are a democratic
country and encourage people or just do what they can wherever
they are. Tell us a little bit about, I
(12:16):
mean, that's, that's remarkable.Let me say.
Tell us a bit about the experience of being a dissident.
How does it affect your life andwhat are the qualities that you
found it has brought out in you,either good or bad?
You know, I never planned this life.
I'm I was teacher, I was mother,and I stepped only because my
(12:40):
husband was gaoled. Of course, since then I have
learned to be strong because I had to be.
Living in exile is really painful and every day is a
battle, but it's also Prince purpose, you know, I carry the
voices of millions who want freedom.
And actually this gives me strength for being exiled, you
(13:06):
know, for this, for this period.I learned a lot about
international politics, for example, about about how to
speak in front of future audience.
And of course you'll get tired sometimes, but you cannot just
walk off the stage, you know, any more than a political
prisoner can, can like, leave their cell.
(13:28):
So also being in exile is a lonely path, honestly speaking.
You miss your home, you miss your friends, you miss normal
life. And everyday you worry about
those who left behind, you know,special political prisoners, but
you also like discover strength you didn't know you had.
(13:48):
You know, you realise that your fight for you, you're fighting
for others and you are never really alone.
And of course, this struggle andliving in exile changed me.
It made me braver. It made me more like determined,
but it also made me maybe more human.
I see now that the fight for freedom is not just about
(14:11):
politics. It's about love.
It's about dedication, it's a fight for not only for your
family, but for your country. So you're like thinking more in
in huger scales at the moment. So and of course, the dream of
every person who live in exile is to return home home.
(14:31):
It's the country will get after Lukashenko regime will be
destroyed and together again we will have to rebuild everything
that Lukashenko ruined through all this, you know, 31 year.
You mentioned being a mother. You have two children, I think
is it roughly 10 and and, and and a teenager.
(14:53):
How do you, how do you articulate it to them, what
you're doing? Of course they know that I'm a
politician, that I'm fighting for their future.
Also, you know, it's really alsobig challenge for children, for
(15:15):
children who stay in Bill Russo who had to flee because it's
like a lost, lost childhood for them.
Because, you know, they, for example, I, I, I don't spend
much time with my children, but they know why I'm doing this.
And you know, what is very important for me that of course
their life is hard. You know, they have to have to
(15:39):
study in in different countries.So those who stay they are have
to distinguish, you know, propaganda from like real life.
But I think that I want to hope that after changes, our children
will be cherish what we are fighting for, what we are
building for them and that they will never allow new
(16:02):
dictatorship in our country knowing what price we are paying
for this. Yeah.
So your husband say, hey, as youmentioned was imprisoned I think
for five years. It's impossible to think it, it
didn't change him, you know. I mean, obviously he was
physically very different when he came out.
It's hard to think he wasn't mentally and emotionally very
(16:24):
different as well. Just tell me about the impact on
him. How did you find him to be a
different person when he came out?
So just to remind that he spent five years in prison and most of
them he was kept in social confinement.
For a long time. We didn't even know if he was
alive. The regime kept him completely
(16:45):
incommunicado. And of course, it was
psychological torture for him and for all the family.
When he was finally released, ordeported as we call it, thanks
to quiet diplomacy and pressure from the US and the European
countries, it felt like a miracle.
(17:05):
But I have to be honest, it's not easy.
Freedom after so much suffering is complicated.
So he is recovering and we are like rebuilding our life
together. But we know that still thousands
of families are are waiting and we like we cannot be truly free
until they are two. You know, what I have noticed in
(17:34):
all political prisoners who keptwho were so long time in prisons
is that like emotionally maybe we are on the different steps
because for example, the beginning of the war in Ukraine,
it was only short message for those who are in prisons.
(17:55):
They like people didn't feel emotionally what we felt seeing
Bucha or seeing all this like missiles, you know, bombing
Ukraine. They haven't seen this awful
images of dead bodies, you know,after attacks of Russia.
They didn't feel our like, you know, so called happiness when
(18:19):
the Russian Russian ship was bombed, this and this famous
phrase about this Russian ship. So, and simultaneously, we
haven't felt the pain of those people who were kept in prison,
you know, they feeling of, you know, of loneliness, you know,
(18:39):
they, they, they struggle. So we have to learn from each
other, you know, how to be like on the same page.
But of course, people are recovering.
They learn more and more about our struggle, you know, and we
are learning from them how it was, you know, for them to go
through all the all those tortures they went through in
(19:01):
prison. Sir Hay has said in interviews
that I've read that he doesn't want to overlap with your, with
your position. Does he want to be back in
politics? I note that he's he's just
visited the White House, which is fantastic.
What I mean, what does he want to be back?
Do you want him to be back? I mean, what sort of future role
(19:25):
do you see for him? And I suppose how are you
approaching that as a family? I think that CVA is still
looking for his path because in 2020 he was a Blogger, you know,
and now he says that his words is his weapon.
But I see already that he wants to be involved more in the
(19:47):
political life and then encourage him to do this.
So it's not about competition between us.
It's we complement each other actually.
And his release gave me a new energy.
We are now both committed to continue the fight side by side.
And, you know, he, he really boosted new energy, you know, in
(20:10):
the billers and people he like. Trying to be like relevant, you
know, he wants to understand what has been happening all
these years. So for sure he will not step
back, you know, from this path. He will be in this fight
together with us. But still he just, you know,
thinking is he politician or he's like media person, right?
(20:37):
I well, both both admirable potential futures for him.
Let's talk a little bit about about the politics and the
geopolitics. So the role of Russia obviously
you've you've already touched onas you said Lukashenko would,
would very likely not be in power anymore if it not for, for
Putin's help. And in in return Putin gets to
(20:58):
pull the strings in Minsk. As we're speaking, I think you
mentioned the Tapad 252025 military exercises between
Russia and Belarus are about to get underway, which obviously
demonstrates the closest closeness there is democracy in
Belarus a very distant possibility as long as Putin or
(21:19):
somebody like Putin remains in power in Moscow.
Look, when I hear from the politicians that without changes
in Russia, nothing like can be changed in Belarus, I think it's
a wrong perception. You know, we don't have to wait
for changes in Russia. Free Belarus can be like the
(21:39):
biggest sanctions, first of all against Moscow.
It will remove Russia's balcony to threaten Europe.
It will be difficult, you know, to start changes from Belarus,
but it's not impossible. Russia is the main reason why
Lukashenko survives, you know, and the changes in diversity is
easier because our society is more consolidated.
(22:03):
We have absolutely pro European nation who wants to return to to
its roots. And many authorities, you know,
people from the Miklatuda, they also understand that Lukashenko
pushes our country, you know, infull dependence on Russia, and
they don't want this. So we can wait for, you know,
(22:24):
for more splitting of, of authorities in, in Belarus.
And I'm sure that changes in Belarus can spark changes in
Russia. So it's like vice versa
situation. Russia is big, you know, it's
more difficult, you know, more complicated.
But in Belarus, the story is simple.
What we need is to not to stop, not to give up and just, you
(22:48):
know, to put as much pressure aspossible.
Mukashenko to to leave his post.And if you always look back what
Russia is saying, what Russia isdoing, we will never be able to
to get our independence. You know, we can see it from the
history of other countries from our region, like Lithuania,
(23:10):
where I live at the moment, a small country, but they managed,
you know, to get rid of this dependence on Russia.
They didn't look back on what did we say.
So we are preparing for this momentum when we can achieve our
goals. And I hope that will encourage,
you know, the Russians to fight for core changes in their
(23:31):
country as well. Yeah.
And, and let me just give a shout out to Lithuania.
It's a, it's a very strong supporter of democracy globally
as a country and, and we should credit that.
And let me say what a wonderful idea it is that freedom in
Belarus could then inspire freedom in Russia.
That would be a a wonderful outcome.
Let's just talk about the impactof Russia's invasion on of
(23:55):
Ukraine. So Putin, as I, if I understand
it correctly, seems to portray Belarus, like Ukraine, as being
somehow part of an extended Russia.
I mean, you can correct me on that if I've misunderstood it.
But I'm wondering if the invasion has therefore had any
chilling effect on the the Belarusian democratic movement.
(24:18):
If people know that Putin might take aggressive action against
Belarus, if it becomes independent, if it becomes free,
if in his mind it turns westward.
Look of course in Russia looks on Belarus and Ukraine like on
like naughty children. They that wants to leave the
(24:41):
like USSR, Soviets, you know, family and they think that we
belongs to Russia, that we cannot live like sphere of
influence of Russia. But we have to stop this this
rhetoric of spheres of influence.
Every nation has its right, you know, to choose their future by
(25:01):
themselves. When the war in Ukraine has
started, you know, we realise that Russia wants, you know,
Ukraine as Belarus with Lukashenko, I didn't, you know,
who will like serve to Russia's interests, not to Ukrainian.
And I think that's the way Ukraine even boosted Belarusian
(25:26):
resistance movement, because we understood that first of all,
our country became because of actions of Lukashenko Co
Aggressa that we can lose this connection, Ukrainian,
Belarusian connection. And we have to save this
relationship. And we realised that we have to
(25:47):
do everything possible, you know, to help Ukrainians to win
this war, because it will be also window opportunity for us,
for us Belarusians. That's why our our partisans
disrupted railways to stop Russian trains going to Ukraine.
That is why so many Belarusian military volunteers are fighting
(26:07):
shoulder to shoulder with Ukrainians.
That's why Belarusian dissidentshelped Ukrainian refugees, you
know, to just to recover in exile because we knew what it
means to leave everything behindand escape your country because
you, you are because you are threatened.
So we're and to be the same as Ukrainians.
We want to be part of European family of countries.
(26:29):
And this is like our future. And of course, Russia doesn't
want this, you know, but we again, returning to my, to my
thesis that we don't have to like think always what Russia
thinks, what Russia will say, you know, So that's why we are
(26:49):
like understanding how the Rusen's situation influences,
influences a situation in Ukraine and vice versa.
You know, I think that we at this very moment have been more
united with Ukrainians than everbefore.
Right. You described in Foreign Affairs
magazine recently the risk that Belarus becomes a consolation
(27:11):
prize for a defeated Putin. Just explain what you meant by
that. No, I worry that some in the
West will see Belarus as like less important than Ukraine,
that if Russia is pushed out of Ukraine, they will keep control
over Belarus as the way, you know, to save face.
(27:32):
And I think that I'm sure it will be historic mistake.
Belarus is not Russia's to keep.We are not buffer zone.
We are European country and the peace in region I'm sure will
not be complete until Belarus isfree.
And many politicians, you know, experts think that's it's only
(27:53):
like humanitarian crisis in Belarus because, you know,
political prisoners or politicalcrisis.
But we or farm and insist that Belarus is also looked at from
security point of view, because if there will be Lukashenka, who
(28:15):
is supported by Putin, it will be constant threat to the whole
region. We all already see provocations
on the borders, migration crisis, you know this drone
attacks, deployment of nuclear weapon.
There will be no peace, no stability in all Europe until
Belarus is under dictatorship. And so you cannot leave just
(28:36):
Belarus for one day later we face the same threat as Ukraine
and we want the same future in freedom and Europe.
So like last point, that we wantBelarus to be a reliable and
safe partner for our neighbours rather than a source of constant
threats. You've credited Donald Trump for
(29:01):
some specific actions, includingthe negotiation of prisoner
releases. And you mentioned it before in
relation to your husband that I think followed a visit from
Keith, Keith Kellogg, Trump's envoy.
Do you think Lukashenko used that gesture to encourage
Washington to negotiate with Moscow on Ukraine?
(29:22):
And if not, what do you think his motive for those releases
was? Now, I think that Lukashanka
acted out of here, you know, he released here and other
political prisoners to avoid something worse, like more
sanctions, more isolation. And as we know, for release of
my husband, you know, he got nothing in return.
(29:44):
Just just picture with the General Kellogg.
Of course, I will always be grateful for that help.
Now we ask actually for more. Over 1000 political prisons
remain behind bars and Trump hasa real change to make history,
you know, by helping through allof them.
That would be a legacy of true moral leadership.
(30:06):
Trump said that he expects 1300 hostages to be freed soon.
And he rightly called them hostages, you know, because this
is what they are. But the regime, they're just
like bargaining chips for us. It's human beings, you know,
every, every life matters. And just yesterday, we learned
(30:26):
that another prisoner died behind bars.
It's 9 already. And of course, we must prevent
more deaths and encourage President Trump, you know, to
continue this humanitarian trek,but without, you know, giving,
like, credibility or legitimacy to location.
(30:46):
And of course we shouldn't talk about lifting of sanctions,
because what we want is not justrelease of political prisoners,
it's just first step. We want irreversible and and the
systematic changes in the Belarus.
So we have to ruin all this authoritarian system and build
(31:07):
new one democratic. Would you like to see more
sanctions? I think that's there are still
space for more sanctions againstLukashenko regime.
You know, the only thing he's afraid of is Empton in his
pockets, you know, and all the sanctions really painful for
Lukashank. Of course, loopholes have to be
(31:29):
closed, you know, Of course there are, it's a convention,
you know, of sanctions, but still there are.
We have more instruments, you know, to put pressure on
Mukashankar regime. And I'm asking European Union
and the USA to use these instruments.
Now. President Trump is like using
(31:49):
carrots, but there are also sticks that might be used if
necessary. Sure, absolutely.
And there's, it's the, it's a question of the right balance.
the US seems to have regarded Lukashenko as a, as a vector to
understand Putin and his motivesbetter as they went went about
negotiating on Ukraine. If I, if I mean, if media
(32:11):
reports are to be believed and I, I think there are credible
media reports to that effect. If that's right, did Lukashenko
for fool them on this, given theUS, at least up to to now, has
got nowhere with Moscow on Ukraine?
You know, Lukashanka always likeplayed this seesaw game.
(32:35):
You know, when in winter he was friends with Putin because he
needed cheap gas and oil, in summers he needed some money.
You know, he made friendship with the with the Europe so and
the because of this, you know, playing for both sides and he
might be percepted as a person who knows President Putin very
(32:57):
well and he that he can influence like maybe his
decision. But of course, you know,
Lukashenka now is like puppet ofPutin.
He's not like, you know, voice for changes, you know, for
freedom or he just serves to Putin's interests.
(33:17):
And that's why he cannot be percepted as a person who may
negotiate, you know, who can influence Putin's decision.
Mukashanka is used here. They have such kind of, you
know, symbiotic friendship. They need each other and they
they use each other. So all these attempts of
Lukashenka to look like peacemaker or negotiator, you
(33:41):
know, it's shouldn't be like percepted as like as in reality,
you know, he will always play onthe side of Putin.
But is that an example then of his skill in in, in playing the
two sides off against, you know,Russia and the West off against
each other? Is is he still doing that do you
(34:01):
think? Of course, now Lukashenko lost
all the possibility to play withthe West, because our democratic
partners, they will not like, forget and forgive Lukashenko
for all the, for all the atrocities, for what he's doing
with the Belarus. And at last, you know, I see
(34:22):
that there is no appetite among the European countries at least,
you know, to return to business as usual with Lukashenko for
these 30 years. They realised that Lukashenko
always fooled. He's not honest, you know, he,
he doesn't fulfil, you know, promises.
(34:43):
So there is full understanding that while Lukashenko is there,
they cannot be changes. You know, Lukashenko cannot be
re educated. So now Lukashenko plays fully on
the side of Putin, and it's not possible to bring Lukashenko
closer to democracy, closer to Europe.
You've touched on the importanceof Belarusian freedom and what
(35:07):
that would mean for the region, what, you know, what it would
mean for the security of Europe and, and, and for, you know, for
Europe overall. And I it's worth looking at a
map and I urge our our audience to get out a map and actually
have a look. But if Ukraine is liberated and
Belarus manages to topple Lukashenko, there really will be
(35:29):
a wall of democracies to Russia's West stretching all the
way up to the Baltics. So just give me your overview of
just the geopolitical significance of that, both to
Europe, but also to the wider world.
You. Know if when Ukraine is
(35:51):
liberated and Belarusian succeedin toppling of Okashanka, the
map of Europe will change not with borders, but with values.
We wouldn't finally see, you know, a wall of democracies, you
know, from the Baltic to Black Sea, like it will be strong
(36:12):
united shield against against tyranny.
And this for sure will be like geopolitical, like earthquake.
For Putin, this would mean losing his last foothold in
Europe. For the EU and NATO, it would
mean having secure democratic neighbours, not dictators who
(36:34):
use borders as blackmail or or launchpads for aggression.
For Ukraine, it would mean safety.
For Moldova, Georgia and others,it would be a signal that you
are not alone, we are standing beside you.
And for Belarusians, it would bethe return of our country to the
European family. The world must understand
(36:55):
Belarus is not buffer zone, is not Russia and we European
nation. And together with the free
Ukraine, we can break this chainof like Russian imperialism.
This has choked, you know, our our origin for generations, and
democratic Belarus will be Putin's worst nightmare and
(37:16):
Europe's best chance for peace. Svetlana, you've been generous
with your time. I do have one last question
before I let you go. Do you think about the prospect
of actually being president officially in Belarus?
What, how do you, how do you, I mean, it's a daunting thought,
(37:39):
you know, assuming power in in those sorts of circumstances,
How do you actually reflect on that?
How do you mentally prepare for something like that?
So, first of all, our aim is free and fair elections when
there will be a possibility to hold such kind of elections
(38:01):
without any pressure in the Belarus.
It means that we achieved our like first step democratisation
of Belarus where people can votewithout any fear for the person
they want to choose. I always say to Belarusians who
are asking, you know, how our country will, will look like
(38:22):
after Lukashenko, because for somany years when you live under
governing of one person, you cannot visualise, you know, the
changes and we have to show whatwill be post Lukashenko life of
Belarus. And I always honestly say to
people it will not be easy. You know, democratisation is
rather difficult, long and also painful process.
(38:45):
But this process for better. We will have to rebuild
everything that Lukashanka ruined.
We will have to reinstall all the institutions that will serve
to people, but not to one, one person's interest.
And it will be time of economical revival as well.
(39:05):
We already now working that we will get investments, European
investments, you know, for for future economy of Belarus.
Of course, people wonder how we will like that may be OK.
There may be many scenarios. We look at the scenario where
Russia is not friend friendly toBelarus and they might they like
(39:31):
oil, gas supply and you know, tobuilders how we will sustain
this. And also we are working on these
topics already now, you know, tomake this process of transition
of recovering from, you know, Lukashenko rather short and then
the smooth. So, and, you know, it will be
also like understanding for people that it's so easy to lose
(39:56):
democracy, so easy to lose freedom, and it's so difficult
to gain it back. But going through this difficult
path with repressions, you know,with Lukashenko, I'm sure that
your sense will go this path of recovering much, much easier.
So I encourage people not to lose hope, you prepare for
better and you know, knowing that our future in Europe will
(40:20):
be much, much, much better than what we have now.
Well, Sviat landed Tikkunuskaya,I wish you the very best.
I wish the people of Belarus thevery best.
It's been an honour speaking with you.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for your interest really proceeding.
Bye. That's all we have time for this
(40:41):
week on Stop the World. We'll be back with another
episode soon.
Stop the world. Welcome to Stop the World, the
Aspie Podcast. I'm Olivia Nelson and.
I'm David Rowe. Dave, we have a very special
episode for our listeners this week.
We sure do. This week I spoke with Sveatlana
Tsikkunuskaya, the President Elect of Belarus.
She's been living in exile in neighbouring Lithuania for the
(00:22):
past five years. She ran against the Belarusian
dictator Alexander Lukashenko in2020, and according to
international observers, she wondespite all the obstacles
Lukashenko put in her way. Lukashenko declared victory
anyway, of course, and that sparked massive protests in
Belarus, to which the regime responded with a brutal
(00:43):
crackdown. It's worth pointing out that as
we were recording, this news wasbreaking, that Poland was forced
to shoot down Russian drones that flew deep into its
airspace. And then at least some of these
came from Belarus, which under Lukashenko is a client state of
Vladimir Putin's. So that's a reminder of what's
at stake here. It is in our conversations Fiat
Lana explains how the 2020 election unfolded, why she ran
(01:05):
in the place of her husband Serhey, who was he's.
He was an activist in Blogger. He got thrown in gaol right
before the election. She ran instead and her husband
said hey ended up spending five years in a cell in very brutal,
very harsh conditions. She talks about the ruthless
methods the regime uses to repress the Belarusian people,
(01:25):
how the freedom movement that she leads has managed to
organise itself in exile. She also talks about
Lukashenko's relationship with Putin, the importance of
Ukraine, the role of the United States in negotiating with
Lukashenko, wider European security and the impact on her
own family of the life that she didn't quite choose but has
taken on because she felt that Belarus freedom demanded it.
(01:48):
Yeah. We certainly covered a lot of
ground. It's compelling listening and it
gives insights into the human impacts of dictatorships and
state repression. Svetlana is a true inspiration,
Dave. She's very understandably become
a globally respected advocate for social and political
freedoms and human rights, and we were very grateful to have
her on the podcast. She is that indeed, And we were
that indeed. So enough from us, here's
(02:08):
Svetlana Sikkanuskaya. Svetlana Sikkanuskaya, President
Elect of Belarus, thanks so muchfor joining us.
It's an honour to have you on STOP THE WORLD.
Hello everyone. I want to start with a recent
recap. 2020 was a pivotal momentfor Belarus, for the opposition,
(02:29):
for you personally. Just give us a snapshot of what
happened back then and how it's shaped events over the past five
years. Now actually, in 2020, something
extraordinary happened in Belarus.
For the first time in decades, people from all like walks of
life, young and old, workers andprofessionals from cities and
(02:53):
small towns stood together and demanded changes in in our
country. And it wasn't just about
elections at that moment. It was about mostly dignity,
about reclaiming actually our future.
And when I decided to run in theelection, it wasn't part of my
like, you know, political plan. You know, I stepped in because
(03:15):
of my husband Sidihi, who was declared his candidacy and he
was immediately arrested. You know, that I wasn't a
politician. I was mother teacher, you know
something who hold like quiet life until that that very point.
But I couldn't stay silent when the regime tried to silence my
(03:36):
husband and silence all of us. I ran in his place and something
actually unexpected happened. People rallied around me and you
know, it's I became the voice ofof their hope.
Actually independent observers agreed that I won that
elections. But Lukashanka declared himself
the winner, as actually he always did.
(03:58):
And what followed was the largest peaceful uprising in
Belarusian history. About 1.5 million Belarusians
came out for peaceful protest. Just let me remind that the
population of Belarus is about 9million people in total.
And you know, the courage I saw those days, you know, stills
(04:18):
still moves me at this very moment.
People knew that they could be beaten or they could be arrested
and yet they like stood all. However, you know, Putin came to
Lukashenko's eight. He provided Belarus and dictator
with the all possible assistance, including military
assistance. Actually Russian troops were
stationed at the borders ready to enter Belarus.
(04:41):
And as the result of this, maybethere was no split of elites at
this moment. And of course, the regime
answered with the brutality, mass arrests, torture, forced
exile. Several peaceful protesters were
killed during that period, shortor beaten to death during
(05:01):
torture. I myself was forced out of the
country like many others. But, you know, honestly
speaking, those events reshaped our national identity.
You know, at that moment, we stopped being afraid, maybe.
And even now, five years later, this spirit of uprising lives on
(05:22):
and is the foundation of everything we've built since,
you know, our institutions, our resistance, and our vision for
democratic Belarus. And is it still evident within
Belarus itself? Do you still see it there in the
people? And in what way do you see it?
Of course, we cannot see uprising umbrellas in the
(05:45):
streets of Belarus at the moment, because for five years
Lukashenko through his instruments of intimidating
people, of repressions, this regime managed to how, you know,
to silence people, you know, butpeople's movement lives
underground till now. We, there are small acts of
(06:07):
sabotage, small acts of resistance.
We get a lot of information frompeople on the ground.
So people are not just waiting when changes will come to
Belarus. We are preparing and the people
on the ground doing everything possible they can in such
circumstances to help those who can be more vocal.
(06:28):
I mean, you've given us a picture already of the nature of
the regime. You talked about the torture,
the beatings, the the repression, murder,
imprisonment. Tell us a bit more about how
Lukashenko has so effectively held on to power, how he has
repressed systematically the Belarusian people for I think,
(06:50):
well, 31 years that he's been inpower.
You know, Lukashanka's regime isbuilt entirely on lies,
repressions and and fear. It is like personalist
dictatorship where one man clings to power at all costs.
You know, for this 31 years, as he, as you said, he has
(07:11):
destroyed every independent institution, the courts, the
media, the education system, civil society, and he holds fake
elections, you know, to create the illusion of legitimacy.
But in reality, he governs only through violence and coercion.
What is worse, the regime has surrendered Belarus serenity to
(07:33):
Moscow. Lukashenko stays in power today
only because of Putin. In return, he has turned our
country into like military outposts.
Russian soldiers train on our land.
This month there are joint strategic exercises with Russia.
Zappa 2025 Russian nuclear weapon are deployed in our
(07:54):
country. And it's Lukashenko doesn't
serve to Belarusian interests. He serves only to his own
survival. And you know, for order
Belarusians life under this regime is really nightmare.
We live like in Gulag times, in Stalin's time, repressions
because thousands have been arrested, many are tortured,
(08:15):
some people die in prison. You know you can be detained for
for everything, for reading independent news or showing
support to Ukraine can land you in gaol.
Even buying a Christmas present for a child of political
prisoner, it's it's a crime in our country.
So this is not a governance. It's like hostage taken and our
(08:38):
whole people is being held captive by the dictator who
answers to the Kremlin, not to his people.
Now the the the movement that you lead from exile is more than
an opposition, as you say. By any objective measure you won
against all the odds the 2020 election.
(08:59):
So you're really leading a government in waiting.
Just explain how you and your colleagues have sustained that
and remain sort of cohesive and organised from exile.
It's quite an unusual thing, it seems to me.
You know, after 2020, of course we knew that we couldn't,
(09:20):
couldn't wait passively, you know, for change.
We had to organise. And for this five years we
created like government in exile.
It is consisted of office of president elect.
We have united transitional cabinets as Prota government and
coordination Council as Prota parliament.
And it's not just symbolic structures for us, you know,
(09:42):
they are the, the backbone or for future democratic state.
We actually studying how to livein, in, in democracy.
So our, our institutions are made up of politicians, civil
society leaders, legal experts, even defectors from the regime.
(10:05):
We provide humanitarian support,legal aid, policy development
and international advocacy. We coordinate with the Belarus
and communities in exile. We maintain contacts with the
activists inside the country. Even under such harsh
repressions in Belarus. Many countries, you know,
(10:27):
recognise me as legitimate representative over Belarus.
We have formal relationship withthe European Union, with
national parliament and with theinstitutions like Council of
Europe, for example. Even we actually achieved made
many unprecedented steps. You know, we launched strategic
(10:48):
dialogue with the USA. We are like people nation
without state. Our state is seized by a
dictator, but we are building like our like protestate at the
moment. We have strategic consultations
with the Canada and the UK. We have drafted new democratic
constitution and just to, to explain people how our country
(11:12):
can, can act after the changes. What is one of our essential
achievements, We started to produce new Belarusian passports
for those who are in exile. You know, that's a regime
deprived Belarusian, Belarusian people who live in exile the
right to renew our documents andwe, if our passport is expired,
(11:35):
be like stateless people. So that's why we are producing
this, this kind of documents. It's, it's still not recognised
politically. But we, you know, we understood
that it will be rather difficultproject, but we have no way out
of this situation at the moment.In other words, we are not just
(11:56):
waiting for freedom to come. You know, we are building this
foundation right now. We are showing to Bill Rusen's
possible future if we are in Europe, if we are a democratic
country and encourage people or just do what they can wherever
they are. Tell us a little bit about, I
(12:16):
mean, that's, that's remarkable.Let me say.
Tell us a bit about the experience of being a dissident.
How does it affect your life andwhat are the qualities that you
found it has brought out in you,either good or bad?
You know, I never planned this life.
I'm I was teacher, I was mother,and I stepped only because my
(12:40):
husband was gaoled. Of course, since then I have
learned to be strong because I had to be.
Living in exile is really painful and every day is a
battle, but it's also Prince purpose, you know, I carry the
voices of millions who want freedom.
And actually this gives me strength for being exiled, you
(13:06):
know, for this, for this period.I learned a lot about
international politics, for example, about about how to
speak in front of future audience.
And of course you'll get tired sometimes, but you cannot just
walk off the stage, you know, any more than a political
prisoner can, can like, leave their cell.
(13:28):
So also being in exile is a lonely path, honestly speaking.
You miss your home, you miss your friends, you miss normal
life. And everyday you worry about
those who left behind, you know,special political prisoners, but
you also like discover strength you didn't know you had.
(13:48):
You know, you realise that your fight for you, you're fighting
for others and you are never really alone.
And of course, this struggle andliving in exile changed me.
It made me braver. It made me more like determined,
but it also made me maybe more human.
I see now that the fight for freedom is not just about
(14:11):
politics. It's about love.
It's about dedication, it's a fight for not only for your
family, but for your country. So you're like thinking more in
in huger scales at the moment. So and of course, the dream of
every person who live in exile is to return home home.
(14:31):
It's the country will get after Lukashenko regime will be
destroyed and together again we will have to rebuild everything
that Lukashenko ruined through all this, you know, 31 year.
You mentioned being a mother. You have two children, I think
is it roughly 10 and and, and and a teenager.
(14:53):
How do you, how do you articulate it to them, what
you're doing? Of course they know that I'm a
politician, that I'm fighting for their future.
Also, you know, it's really alsobig challenge for children, for
(15:15):
children who stay in Bill Russo who had to flee because it's
like a lost, lost childhood for them.
Because, you know, they, for example, I, I, I don't spend
much time with my children, but they know why I'm doing this.
And you know, what is very important for me that of course
their life is hard. You know, they have to have to
(15:39):
study in in different countries.So those who stay they are have
to distinguish, you know, propaganda from like real life.
But I think that I want to hope that after changes, our children
will be cherish what we are fighting for, what we are
building for them and that they will never allow new
(16:02):
dictatorship in our country knowing what price we are paying
for this. Yeah.
So your husband say, hey, as youmentioned was imprisoned I think
for five years. It's impossible to think it, it
didn't change him, you know. I mean, obviously he was
physically very different when he came out.
It's hard to think he wasn't mentally and emotionally very
(16:24):
different as well. Just tell me about the impact on
him. How did you find him to be a
different person when he came out?
So just to remind that he spent five years in prison and most of
them he was kept in social confinement.
For a long time. We didn't even know if he was
alive. The regime kept him completely
(16:45):
incommunicado. And of course, it was
psychological torture for him and for all the family.
When he was finally released, ordeported as we call it, thanks
to quiet diplomacy and pressure from the US and the European
countries, it felt like a miracle.
(17:05):
But I have to be honest, it's not easy.
Freedom after so much suffering is complicated.
So he is recovering and we are like rebuilding our life
together. But we know that still thousands
of families are are waiting and we like we cannot be truly free
until they are two. You know, what I have noticed in
(17:34):
all political prisoners who keptwho were so long time in prisons
is that like emotionally maybe we are on the different steps
because for example, the beginning of the war in Ukraine,
it was only short message for those who are in prisons.
(17:55):
They like people didn't feel emotionally what we felt seeing
Bucha or seeing all this like missiles, you know, bombing
Ukraine. They haven't seen this awful
images of dead bodies, you know,after attacks of Russia.
They didn't feel our like, you know, so called happiness when
(18:19):
the Russian Russian ship was bombed, this and this famous
phrase about this Russian ship. So, and simultaneously, we
haven't felt the pain of those people who were kept in prison,
you know, they feeling of, you know, of loneliness, you know,
(18:39):
they, they, they struggle. So we have to learn from each
other, you know, how to be like on the same page.
But of course, people are recovering.
They learn more and more about our struggle, you know, and we
are learning from them how it was, you know, for them to go
through all the all those tortures they went through in
(19:01):
prison. Sir Hay has said in interviews
that I've read that he doesn't want to overlap with your, with
your position. Does he want to be back in
politics? I note that he's he's just
visited the White House, which is fantastic.
What I mean, what does he want to be back?
Do you want him to be back? I mean, what sort of future role
(19:25):
do you see for him? And I suppose how are you
approaching that as a family? I think that CVA is still
looking for his path because in 2020 he was a Blogger, you know,
and now he says that his words is his weapon.
But I see already that he wants to be involved more in the
(19:47):
political life and then encourage him to do this.
So it's not about competition between us.
It's we complement each other actually.
And his release gave me a new energy.
We are now both committed to continue the fight side by side.
And, you know, he, he really boosted new energy, you know, in
(20:10):
the billers and people he like. Trying to be like relevant, you
know, he wants to understand what has been happening all
these years. So for sure he will not step
back, you know, from this path. He will be in this fight
together with us. But still he just, you know,
thinking is he politician or he's like media person, right?
(20:37):
I well, both both admirable potential futures for him.
Let's talk a little bit about about the politics and the
geopolitics. So the role of Russia obviously
you've you've already touched onas you said Lukashenko would,
would very likely not be in power anymore if it not for, for
Putin's help. And in in return Putin gets to
(20:58):
pull the strings in Minsk. As we're speaking, I think you
mentioned the Tapad 252025 military exercises between
Russia and Belarus are about to get underway, which obviously
demonstrates the closest closeness there is democracy in
Belarus a very distant possibility as long as Putin or
(21:19):
somebody like Putin remains in power in Moscow.
Look, when I hear from the politicians that without changes
in Russia, nothing like can be changed in Belarus, I think it's
a wrong perception. You know, we don't have to wait
for changes in Russia. Free Belarus can be like the
(21:39):
biggest sanctions, first of all against Moscow.
It will remove Russia's balcony to threaten Europe.
It will be difficult, you know, to start changes from Belarus,
but it's not impossible. Russia is the main reason why
Lukashenko survives, you know, and the changes in diversity is
easier because our society is more consolidated.
(22:03):
We have absolutely pro European nation who wants to return to to
its roots. And many authorities, you know,
people from the Miklatuda, they also understand that Lukashenko
pushes our country, you know, infull dependence on Russia, and
they don't want this. So we can wait for, you know,
(22:24):
for more splitting of, of authorities in, in Belarus.
And I'm sure that changes in Belarus can spark changes in
Russia. So it's like vice versa
situation. Russia is big, you know, it's
more difficult, you know, more complicated.
But in Belarus, the story is simple.
What we need is to not to stop, not to give up and just, you
(22:48):
know, to put as much pressure aspossible.
Mukashenko to to leave his post.And if you always look back what
Russia is saying, what Russia isdoing, we will never be able to
to get our independence. You know, we can see it from the
history of other countries from our region, like Lithuania,
(23:10):
where I live at the moment, a small country, but they managed,
you know, to get rid of this dependence on Russia.
They didn't look back on what did we say.
So we are preparing for this momentum when we can achieve our
goals. And I hope that will encourage,
you know, the Russians to fight for core changes in their
(23:31):
country as well. Yeah.
And, and let me just give a shout out to Lithuania.
It's a, it's a very strong supporter of democracy globally
as a country and, and we should credit that.
And let me say what a wonderful idea it is that freedom in
Belarus could then inspire freedom in Russia.
That would be a a wonderful outcome.
Let's just talk about the impactof Russia's invasion on of
(23:55):
Ukraine. So Putin, as I, if I understand
it correctly, seems to portray Belarus, like Ukraine, as being
somehow part of an extended Russia.
I mean, you can correct me on that if I've misunderstood it.
But I'm wondering if the invasion has therefore had any
chilling effect on the the Belarusian democratic movement.
(24:18):
If people know that Putin might take aggressive action against
Belarus, if it becomes independent, if it becomes free,
if in his mind it turns westward.
Look of course in Russia looks on Belarus and Ukraine like on
like naughty children. They that wants to leave the
(24:41):
like USSR, Soviets, you know, family and they think that we
belongs to Russia, that we cannot live like sphere of
influence of Russia. But we have to stop this this
rhetoric of spheres of influence.
Every nation has its right, you know, to choose their future by
(25:01):
themselves. When the war in Ukraine has
started, you know, we realise that Russia wants, you know,
Ukraine as Belarus with Lukashenko, I didn't, you know,
who will like serve to Russia's interests, not to Ukrainian.
And I think that's the way Ukraine even boosted Belarusian
(25:26):
resistance movement, because we understood that first of all,
our country became because of actions of Lukashenko Co
Aggressa that we can lose this connection, Ukrainian,
Belarusian connection. And we have to save this
relationship. And we realised that we have to
(25:47):
do everything possible, you know, to help Ukrainians to win
this war, because it will be also window opportunity for us,
for us Belarusians. That's why our our partisans
disrupted railways to stop Russian trains going to Ukraine.
That is why so many Belarusian military volunteers are fighting
(26:07):
shoulder to shoulder with Ukrainians.
That's why Belarusian dissidentshelped Ukrainian refugees, you
know, to just to recover in exile because we knew what it
means to leave everything behindand escape your country because
you, you are because you are threatened.
So we're and to be the same as Ukrainians.
We want to be part of European family of countries.
(26:29):
And this is like our future. And of course, Russia doesn't
want this, you know, but we again, returning to my, to my
thesis that we don't have to like think always what Russia
thinks, what Russia will say, you know, So that's why we are
(26:49):
like understanding how the Rusen's situation influences,
influences a situation in Ukraine and vice versa.
You know, I think that we at this very moment have been more
united with Ukrainians than everbefore.
Right. You described in Foreign Affairs
magazine recently the risk that Belarus becomes a consolation
(27:11):
prize for a defeated Putin. Just explain what you meant by
that. No, I worry that some in the
West will see Belarus as like less important than Ukraine,
that if Russia is pushed out of Ukraine, they will keep control
over Belarus as the way, you know, to save face.
(27:32):
And I think that I'm sure it will be historic mistake.
Belarus is not Russia's to keep.We are not buffer zone.
We are European country and the peace in region I'm sure will
not be complete until Belarus isfree.
And many politicians, you know, experts think that's it's only
(27:53):
like humanitarian crisis in Belarus because, you know,
political prisoners or politicalcrisis.
But we or farm and insist that Belarus is also looked at from
security point of view, because if there will be Lukashenka, who
(28:15):
is supported by Putin, it will be constant threat to the whole
region. We all already see provocations
on the borders, migration crisis, you know this drone
attacks, deployment of nuclear weapon.
There will be no peace, no stability in all Europe until
Belarus is under dictatorship. And so you cannot leave just
(28:36):
Belarus for one day later we face the same threat as Ukraine
and we want the same future in freedom and Europe.
So like last point, that we wantBelarus to be a reliable and
safe partner for our neighbours rather than a source of constant
threats. You've credited Donald Trump for
(29:01):
some specific actions, includingthe negotiation of prisoner
releases. And you mentioned it before in
relation to your husband that I think followed a visit from
Keith, Keith Kellogg, Trump's envoy.
Do you think Lukashenko used that gesture to encourage
Washington to negotiate with Moscow on Ukraine?
(29:22):
And if not, what do you think his motive for those releases
was? Now, I think that Lukashanka
acted out of here, you know, he released here and other
political prisoners to avoid something worse, like more
sanctions, more isolation. And as we know, for release of
my husband, you know, he got nothing in return.
(29:44):
Just just picture with the General Kellogg.
Of course, I will always be grateful for that help.
Now we ask actually for more. Over 1000 political prisons
remain behind bars and Trump hasa real change to make history,
you know, by helping through allof them.
That would be a legacy of true moral leadership.
(30:06):
Trump said that he expects 1300 hostages to be freed soon.
And he rightly called them hostages, you know, because this
is what they are. But the regime, they're just
like bargaining chips for us. It's human beings, you know,
every, every life matters. And just yesterday, we learned
(30:26):
that another prisoner died behind bars.
It's 9 already. And of course, we must prevent
more deaths and encourage President Trump, you know, to
continue this humanitarian trek,but without, you know, giving,
like, credibility or legitimacy to location.
(30:46):
And of course we shouldn't talk about lifting of sanctions,
because what we want is not justrelease of political prisoners,
it's just first step. We want irreversible and and the
systematic changes in the Belarus.
So we have to ruin all this authoritarian system and build
(31:07):
new one democratic. Would you like to see more
sanctions? I think that's there are still
space for more sanctions againstLukashenko regime.
You know, the only thing he's afraid of is Empton in his
pockets, you know, and all the sanctions really painful for
Lukashank. Of course, loopholes have to be
(31:29):
closed, you know, Of course there are, it's a convention,
you know, of sanctions, but still there are.
We have more instruments, you know, to put pressure on
Mukashankar regime. And I'm asking European Union
and the USA to use these instruments.
Now. President Trump is like using
(31:49):
carrots, but there are also sticks that might be used if
necessary. Sure, absolutely.
And there's, it's the, it's a question of the right balance.
the US seems to have regarded Lukashenko as a, as a vector to
understand Putin and his motivesbetter as they went went about
negotiating on Ukraine. If I, if I mean, if media
(32:11):
reports are to be believed and I, I think there are credible
media reports to that effect. If that's right, did Lukashenko
for fool them on this, given theUS, at least up to to now, has
got nowhere with Moscow on Ukraine?
You know, Lukashanka always likeplayed this seesaw game.
(32:35):
You know, when in winter he was friends with Putin because he
needed cheap gas and oil, in summers he needed some money.
You know, he made friendship with the with the Europe so and
the because of this, you know, playing for both sides and he
might be percepted as a person who knows President Putin very
(32:57):
well and he that he can influence like maybe his
decision. But of course, you know,
Lukashenka now is like puppet ofPutin.
He's not like, you know, voice for changes, you know, for
freedom or he just serves to Putin's interests.
(33:17):
And that's why he cannot be percepted as a person who may
negotiate, you know, who can influence Putin's decision.
Mukashanka is used here. They have such kind of, you
know, symbiotic friendship. They need each other and they
they use each other. So all these attempts of
Lukashenka to look like peacemaker or negotiator, you
(33:41):
know, it's shouldn't be like percepted as like as in reality,
you know, he will always play onthe side of Putin.
But is that an example then of his skill in in, in playing the
two sides off against, you know,Russia and the West off against
each other? Is is he still doing that do you
(34:01):
think? Of course, now Lukashenko lost
all the possibility to play withthe West, because our democratic
partners, they will not like, forget and forgive Lukashenko
for all the, for all the atrocities, for what he's doing
with the Belarus. And at last, you know, I see
(34:22):
that there is no appetite among the European countries at least,
you know, to return to business as usual with Lukashenko for
these 30 years. They realised that Lukashenko
always fooled. He's not honest, you know, he,
he doesn't fulfil, you know, promises.
(34:43):
So there is full understanding that while Lukashenko is there,
they cannot be changes. You know, Lukashenko cannot be
re educated. So now Lukashenko plays fully on
the side of Putin, and it's not possible to bring Lukashenko
closer to democracy, closer to Europe.
You've touched on the importanceof Belarusian freedom and what
(35:07):
that would mean for the region, what, you know, what it would
mean for the security of Europe and, and, and for, you know, for
Europe overall. And I it's worth looking at a
map and I urge our our audience to get out a map and actually
have a look. But if Ukraine is liberated and
Belarus manages to topple Lukashenko, there really will be
(35:29):
a wall of democracies to Russia's West stretching all the
way up to the Baltics. So just give me your overview of
just the geopolitical significance of that, both to
Europe, but also to the wider world.
You. Know if when Ukraine is
(35:51):
liberated and Belarusian succeedin toppling of Okashanka, the
map of Europe will change not with borders, but with values.
We wouldn't finally see, you know, a wall of democracies, you
know, from the Baltic to Black Sea, like it will be strong
(36:12):
united shield against against tyranny.
And this for sure will be like geopolitical, like earthquake.
For Putin, this would mean losing his last foothold in
Europe. For the EU and NATO, it would
mean having secure democratic neighbours, not dictators who
(36:34):
use borders as blackmail or or launchpads for aggression.
For Ukraine, it would mean safety.
For Moldova, Georgia and others,it would be a signal that you
are not alone, we are standing beside you.
And for Belarusians, it would bethe return of our country to the
European family. The world must understand
(36:55):
Belarus is not buffer zone, is not Russia and we European
nation. And together with the free
Ukraine, we can break this chainof like Russian imperialism.
This has choked, you know, our our origin for generations, and
democratic Belarus will be Putin's worst nightmare and
(37:16):
Europe's best chance for peace. Svetlana, you've been generous
with your time. I do have one last question
before I let you go. Do you think about the prospect
of actually being president officially in Belarus?
What, how do you, how do you, I mean, it's a daunting thought,
(37:39):
you know, assuming power in in those sorts of circumstances,
How do you actually reflect on that?
How do you mentally prepare for something like that?
So, first of all, our aim is free and fair elections when
there will be a possibility to hold such kind of elections
(38:01):
without any pressure in the Belarus.
It means that we achieved our like first step democratisation
of Belarus where people can votewithout any fear for the person
they want to choose. I always say to Belarusians who
are asking, you know, how our country will, will look like
(38:22):
after Lukashenko, because for somany years when you live under
governing of one person, you cannot visualise, you know, the
changes and we have to show whatwill be post Lukashenko life of
Belarus. And I always honestly say to
people it will not be easy. You know, democratisation is
rather difficult, long and also painful process.
(38:45):
But this process for better. We will have to rebuild
everything that Lukashanka ruined.
We will have to reinstall all the institutions that will serve
to people, but not to one, one person's interest.
And it will be time of economical revival as well.
(39:05):
We already now working that we will get investments, European
investments, you know, for for future economy of Belarus.
Of course, people wonder how we will like that may be OK.
There may be many scenarios. We look at the scenario where
Russia is not friend friendly toBelarus and they might they like
(39:31):
oil, gas supply and you know, tobuilders how we will sustain
this. And also we are working on these
topics already now, you know, tomake this process of transition
of recovering from, you know, Lukashenko rather short and then
the smooth. So, and, you know, it will be
also like understanding for people that it's so easy to lose
(39:56):
democracy, so easy to lose freedom, and it's so difficult
to gain it back. But going through this difficult
path with repressions, you know,with Lukashenko, I'm sure that
your sense will go this path of recovering much, much easier.
So I encourage people not to lose hope, you prepare for
better and you know, knowing that our future in Europe will
(40:20):
be much, much, much better than what we have now.
Well, Sviat landed Tikkunuskaya,I wish you the very best.
I wish the people of Belarus thevery best.
It's been an honour speaking with you.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for your interest really proceeding.
Bye. That's all we have time for this
(40:41):
week on Stop the World. We'll be back with another
episode soon.
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