‘We are not doing well’: Estonia’s Marko Mihkelson on democracy vs authoritarianism

Russia has more than 100 times the population of its neighbour Estonia, yet the small Baltic nation has played a clever strategic hand, wedding itself closely to NATO and the European Union, and investing in sovereign tech and security capabilities. But with Moscow pressing and testing Europe, Estonia and its neighbours are under pressure.

Veteran Estonian MP and chair of the parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee Marko Mihkelson argues democracies became too relaxed in the decades after the Cold War, with Europe disarming and the US and others assuming trade would dissuade authoritarian nations such as China from conflict. 

Democracies today need to stick together, he says in this wide-ranging conversation, especially by supporting Ukraine. Marko talks about the ways authoritarians are exploiting polarisation in democracies and seeking to end the western-led liberal order. He explains why he believes imperialism has become ingrained in Russia over centuries. And if the likes of Estonia are to avoid a repeat of the half-century of occupation of Russian occupation they experienced during the Cold War, Russia must be utterly defeated.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Stop the world. Welcome to STOP THE World.
I'm Olivia Nelson. And I'm David Rowe.
Let me say, welcome back, Liv. Thanks.
Dave, the wedding was an absolute blast, I had a great
time and you are now the proud wife of Ben.
That's true and he's a good man.You rocked that dance floor, so
thank you. Fond memories.
Got a few compliments. But in other serious news,

(00:23):
today's guest for the podcast isa lifelong champion of democracy
and critic of authoritarianism. He's other than Marco Mickelson,
a six term member of Estonia's parliament and chair of its
Committee for Foreign Affairs. Marco is a Russia expert, fierce
critic of Vladimir Putin, and a steadfast advocate for maximum
global support for Ukraine. He.
Sure is. We had Marco visit ASP this week

(00:45):
live when he was in Canberra meeting with Australian
government officials and foreignembassies, some of whom joined
us for a roundtable yesterday. He's a really powerful figure in
European strategic policy debate.
One of his arguments is that Russia is imperialistic by its
nature as a country and that this goes beyond Putin's 25 year
reign. He also argues that therefore
Russia needs to be soundly defeated and driven out of

(01:08):
Ukraine such that it can't pose a threat again.
And that means that some kind ofnegotiated settlement involving
compromises which is currently being being pursued isn't an
option. Marcos native Estonia is a
country of just 1.3 million people, but it is playing its
strategic card smartly. After the collapse of the Soviet
Union, it adopted a policy of Never Alone Again, which meant

(01:28):
seeking NATO and EU membership immediately, and this has
remained A bipartisan position ever since.
And having suffered Russian cyber attacks in the 2000s, it's
also built up its tech capabilities to world class
levels. Yeah, Marco talks about all this
and more. He explains why he feels
democracy is on the back foot globally, the changing role of
the United States as a bedrock of the global order, and the

(01:49):
rise of authoritarianism around the world.
Then we delve into Russia, Ukraine, Estonia and Europe, and
Marco shares his view on just what needs to happen if we're to
pass this civilizational test ofcase of supporting Ukraine
against Russia's invasion. Marco is a major voice for
democracy in the around the world and we were grateful that
he could make the time to visit ASPI.

(02:10):
Let's hear from him. Marco Mickelson, welcome to
Canberra. Thanks for coming on STOP THE
WORLD. Thank you for having me.
So I want to start by talking about the nature of
authoritarianism and democracy globally, what we're seeing, the
trends that we're seeing at the moment.
And then I'm going to talk a little bit about your native
Estonia, the regional issues, obviously Russia and Ukraine
being central there. Just give me your thoughts,

(02:32):
though, on the balance net rightnow that you're seeing around
the world between democracy and authoritarianism.
Which way is that moving and what are the key drivers?
Yeah, this is absolutely the theone of the most important
questions for us, for politicians, for think tankers,

(02:52):
diplomats to to digest and because that allows us to to
really focus what should be done.
We are not doing well. We meaning democracies.
The pressure on us posed by authoritarian regimes are

(03:15):
unprecedented. Yes, this is nothing new
Competition, if I may use this kind of word, mild word has been
there for many decades. If you go back, for instance,
times when Communist Russia was established after the Gupta by

(03:41):
Bolsheviks in 1917, they immediately declared that they
are, they would like to promote world revolution globally, not
only in Europe. And that was kind of seen as a
fight, you know, not only ideological fight between

(04:03):
communism and capitalism, if I may say so, but it's, it was
purely also the fight between authoritarianism, imperialism
and, and democracies. So ever since basically we have
seen the, you know, the the topic there since World War 1

(04:27):
ended, a number of issues were unresolved, including also the
peace and lasting peace in Europe, which led to to
traumatic events of 1930s in different countries, the rise of

(04:47):
authoritarianism and serious challenge challenge put on
democracies. And during World War 2, as we
know, democracies had to make a kind of alliance with after
retiring country Soviet Union inorder to beat another after

(05:12):
retiring regime in Europe and then globally.
And unfortunately that one of those authoritarian regimes like
Russia, but partly also China definitely after the World War
Two were able to maintain quite significant power and global

(05:36):
level meaning as members of P5 with a veto right on security
issues. And not only so it's, we
actually have inherited this what, where are we right now
from, from the past and, and unfortunately we're right now.

(05:59):
While those roots of, of this kind of competition or even
fight between democracies and authoritarian regimes are more
and more tense right now. And not only in terms of we, we

(06:19):
don't see them only in, in a hybrid or grey area, but also
directly full scale war. What is going on already for
many years in, in Europe shows us that, you know, European
democracies, a number of them have diminished significantly
during last couple of decades. Perhaps we have to stick

(06:43):
together and we have to understand these challenges we
we have and really tackle root causes of the current conflict
between democracies and after German regimes.
It's an awfully Putin esque term.
Root causes unfortunately, but Iknow you mean it.
A very different way to the way.Absolutely.
Definitely deliberately to use this.

(07:05):
Rule. So OK, why is it going badly for
us though fundamentally, I mean,and perhaps to just to lead you
a little bit down a particular direction.
I mean, how much of it has to dowith the limitations of the way
that we're actually supporting each other?
I mean, obviously Ukraine is showing to some extent the
limitations that other democracies have on supporting A

(07:26):
democracy that is clearly the victim here of, of completely
unjustified aggression. How much of it is to do with the
fact that, you know, we're worried about ourselves, about
our own prospects or about our own economies or perhaps that,
you know, democracy as a set of values to rally around is
perhaps just not as strong. The perception of it globally is

(07:46):
not as as strong as it might have been, say, 20 or 15 or 20
years ago. There are many reasons of
course. There is one reason behind of it
is that we became too relaxed after the collapse of Soviet
Union and there were naive hopesthat free trades will somehow

(08:14):
affect also China, for instance,or some other authoritarian
regimes and liberal democracy, something what overwhelmed after
the collapse of of Soviet Union.And, and I think probably also
there was a kind of this was very much understandable

(08:37):
probably in the Western part of free world that after decades of
kind of Cold War and, and threats from Soviet Union, you
know, nuclear threat disappeared.
So it, it was natural to, to kind of be laid back and to take

(09:00):
out some peace dividends. Unfortunately, we went too far
with disarming ourselves hoping that conventional warfare is at
least in Europe is in the past and Russia has changed.
Russia has, you know, become OK,difficult partner, but still

(09:24):
we'll hopes one day will become more democratic and open society
and same perhaps applied to China after Deng Xiaoping
decided to open up and all thosedecisions made between Americans
and Chinese in 1970s. You know, nobody probably

(09:49):
expected that China will grow inthose rapid terms and will
become power, which you know hasmuch more to say globally than
somebody expected. And and in in this regard, now

(10:13):
we see that China, Russia, but also North Korea, Iran as axis
have actually agreed up and to use a momentum that specifically
relatively high influence of China.

(10:37):
And when it comes to economy, innovation, economic power in
general, but also military. But I might has created kind of
understanding that there is a chance to to reshape world
order, which has been mostly notonly after the World War 2, but

(11:00):
let's say during last couple of centuries at least led by
democratic European nations. And that is the world we live
right now. We, we have to understand that
this is, well, this is in the middle of serious transformation

(11:25):
and European nations, if we a European, meaning democratic
nations, if we are not going to be able to stick together right
now, then we are not being able to set or define norms or rules
for a world which is going to emerge anyway after this

(11:48):
struggle between democracies andafter retiring regimes.
Yeah. I mean, it seems to me US
leadership is another obvious big factor in this.
I mean, the, the US has shifted in its, you know, it's, it's
actual sort of home grown attitudes, it seems towards
being the, you know, the, the, the, the force behind that

(12:10):
liberal international order. I mean, America first really
does mean something quite authentic and genuine.
And it does, you know, the, the,the, the US decision to kind of
shift and, and put its own priorities ahead of, I guess

(12:31):
supporting an international order at some expense to itself
is a, is a significant factor. I mean, I, I'm a staunch US
alliance supporter. I know you're a staunch
transatlanticist, but how has the US shift, I suppose, changed
your views about, you know, thattransatlantic relationship and,
and the, you know, the, the, theUS in general?

(12:54):
Yeah, definitely what we have seen during last perhaps 5 to 10
years, there has been a gradual shift and and again this is
influenced you know what, what'shappening on a on a global
stage, how to handle the growth of China.

(13:15):
This is first time, you know, for many, many decades where
United States have actually the power which can really challenge
their leading position in on a, on a, on a global level.
And, and plus, of course, we should not forget that societies

(13:35):
are changing Demography is, is is 1 factor, but also what has
happened during last, let's say 15 to 20 years, how we as
democracies or open societies communicate within our societies
and how vulnerable we are actually from interference from

(13:57):
outside. I'm as a former journalist, I
know you are also. I was editor in chief of biggest
news tail in Estonia at the end of 90s when nobody knew about
social media and Internet was very much in early stages for a
newspaper, newspapers like ours.And there weren't those so many

(14:19):
bubbles, let's say that was muchmore easier in democratic
societies to rally for a more unified course and and
political, let's say landscape was more centre oriented rather
than we see what's happening today.
And polarisation is not the question, only what we see in

(14:42):
the United States, Unfortunately, the very same
tendencies we see in Europe in our democracies around the
world. And they are fueled also by
those who would like to see us being more polarised and and
weaker in order to, you know, maintain this stronger national

(15:06):
unity when it comes specificallyto to questions of foreign
policy strategic decision making.
Yeah, OK. No, that those are, those are
important points. I want to move on to Russia and
Baltics and Ukraine. I mean, Estonia is obviously

(15:27):
right there on the front line alongside Ukraine in terms of
Russian aggression. I I've heard you say in other
forums, I was listening to the Why We Fight podcast that you
were on earlier this year. Really excellent podcast and I
recommend it to our listeners ifthey're not already fans of it.
But I mean, one of the points that you made in that is that

(15:49):
that imperialism is sort of built into the Russian nation.
It's not just a, a Vladimir Putin issue.
And that obviously indicates that we can't just wait for
Putin to die or be overthrown. It's a pretty sort of depressing
prospect, I guess from the pointof view of say, Australia, where
we're a little bit less familiarwith having a, a neighbour that
is that way inclined. I mean, you know, obviously we

(16:10):
are somewhat preoccupied by China and the rise of China here
in the Indo Pacific. But certainly, you know, as
sharing a land border with a nation like Russia that has, as
you put it, you know, been an imperialist for for sort of so
many generations that it is sortof almost sort of culturally
built in. What what to, to explain that to

(16:33):
me. I mean, where, where does that
actually reside? Is it?
It's sort of hard to imagine from an Australian perspective
that that that it's in the hearts of the Russian people.
I mean, we like to think of human beings as human beings and
we're more or less the same everywhere.
But perhaps it is ingrained in the culture, in the education
system in in various other ways.Just for for for an Australian

(16:53):
listener. Explain how that works.
Oh yeah, this is critically important to understand why
Russia is acting like they do and why they are so aggressive
and not only against neighbours,but also why are there so

(17:14):
aggressive against democracies around the world as well.
I explained earlier that what happened with Russia.
Of course, you have to understand that Russian imperial
history goes back several centuries ever since they
decided to create their own, youknow, statehood.

(17:41):
They, they're one of the main ideas was to expand and, and
also at the same time to keep very strong authoritarian or
even totalitarian rule of, of a,one, one person as a tsar,
emperor or, or general secretaryof Communist Party or now the

(18:05):
president of, of that country. And, and that has been the case
for so many centuries. And if we think back the kind of
experience with Russia or Russian people had with rule of

(18:28):
law based democratic systems, it's less than one generation.
All in all, perhaps the most positive time for Russia in that
sense was at the beginning of 20th century, right before World

(18:51):
War One. Then they were more or less
forming themselves as a constitutional monarchy.
But World War 2 destroyed that. Partly, of course, we Estonians
Awlaki that World War 2 ended with the collapse of empires in

(19:14):
Europe and partly also empire collapse of Temporary collapse
of collapse of Soviet Russian Empire allowed us to declare our
independence in on 24th of February 1918 and in
independence war against Bolshevik Croatia to win that
war in 1920. But as we no while World War 1

(19:39):
ended up with with call ups of several empires in Europe, it
didn't actually lead to call upsof Russian empire.
They were very much ready and, and pushed back and yes, under a
different name, Soviet Union. Sometimes people also from

(20:00):
distance make a mistake thinkingthat Soviet Union was something
else rather than Russian Empire.You know, it was Russian Empire
and they just painted into red. And they're using this kind of
ideological facade meaning communist so and and in during

(20:21):
World War 2. We talked about that as well.
Russian Empire or Soviet Empire was one who actually initiated
that war. They were together with Nazis in
1939, you know, first ones who actually launched attack against
Poland, first Nazis and then couple of weeks later Soviets.

(20:45):
They attacked Finland, they occupied and the next illegally
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and so forth.
Of course, then Nazis attacked Soviet Union in order to make
sure that Stalin will not succeed in their, in his own
attack against Germany, because Stalin was ready to attack

(21:07):
Germany early July 1941. We, we know now from those our
high documents we, we have then obviously the alliance of
against Nazi Germany appeared and Soviet Union was able to

(21:27):
come out from this war as, as a winner.
And and that obviously again didn't help much to, to change
his mindset. Mindset because after the World
War 2, Germany went through denazification very, you know,
painful process which in many ways lasted for decades.

(21:48):
Soviets, Russian Empire obviously didn't face this
reality and this didn't happen even after the collapse of
Soviet Union. Unfortunately, the main sort of
backbone of Russian Empire in modern terms, KGB survived and
within few years they were able to capture full power in in

(22:13):
Russia, putting Putin as a president and, you know,
destroying within a few years all the elements of democratic
institutions which were established early 90s.
And today we we can say that Russian Empire is fully back and

(22:34):
trying to expand again to territories which they think
should belong to them, like George, Ukraine, Belarus and
others. But not not only that they they
are seeking to destroy entire western alliance.
And This is why people sometimesmake mistakes thinking that this

(22:57):
is only Putin's war. Definitely not this is Russia's
war. I was journalist, worked in
Moscow mid 90s and I covered also Chechen war 94 to 96,

(23:19):
travelled many times to, to, to battlefields there.
And then I made interview with General Dudaev, who was leader
of Chechens in February 1995. Then he said that, you know, if
we fail in our fight for freedomagainst Russians, these imperial

(23:41):
wars will last for next 50 years.
And that was 1995. Nobody knew about Putin.
Nobody knew about who run RussiaToday.
But now, 30 years later, and nothing, nothing unfortunately,
has changed. And he was right in terms of

(24:02):
telling that after Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine and maybe
others will be targets from Russian side.
So it's to say out loud is that the and using this Putin's
definition of root causes of, ofcurrent war in in Europe, the

(24:25):
main root cause is a survival ofRussian imperialism for such a
long period of time. And their readiness to use all
kind of tools, including conventional warfare to enlarge
to set their kind of way of thinking and, and the norms on

(24:45):
borders. And, and This is why we have to
understand that there will not be a just and lasting peace and
stability, probably globally also, unless this mindset,
Russian imperialism will be defeated in their war of

(25:06):
aggression in in Ukraine. Right.
Which practically, from the point of view of what what
actually needs to happen next, it means a complete defeat of
Russia and A and a repudiation of Putin's or you would say
Russia's sort of maximalist ambitions in Ukraine, correct.
First and foremost, their aggression against Ukraine

(25:30):
cannot succeed or should not succeed, because if we want to
establish or re establish a justand lasting peace, and I argue a
word, the just peace, because after World War Two we had in
Europe also peace. But my country, Estonia, was 50

(25:50):
years occupied by Soviet Union, Soviet empire.
That wasn't pleasant time for us.
And this is what we don't want to be repeated again in Europe.
It's definitely we should make sure that this impunity, what
the Russian imperialism has carried out for many decades, is

(26:11):
going to end here and now. And their aggression should not
go unpunished. And This is why we say and argue
that we democratic nations globally who are actually
helping a lot Ukrainians in their fight for freedom and
independence. And, and we know that their

(26:31):
fight is our fight as well because this is first frontline
of, of and the real frontline between democracies and
authoritarian regimes. Then obviously this help should
be materialised in real strategic aim.
Russia cannot succeed in their war of aggression in Ukraine,

(26:54):
and Ukraine must restore its territorial integrity and win in
this war. I mean, nothing would please me
more personally than to see Russian forces driven back over
the border out of Donbass, out of out of Sevastopol, out of
Crimea. That said, I mean, the
prevailing direction of things in the the prevailing view seems

(27:18):
to be that some sort of negotiated settlement is going
to be needed. I'm going to play devil's
advocate for a moment, which is to say that, yes, a just peace
is what we are looking for. But unfortunately, the world is
not just. And right now, even even Kiev
itself is looking for some kind of negotiation under which it

(27:42):
might be able to tolerate, you know, a permanent peace
settlement is, I mean, I supposewhat do you say to the idea that
if a settlement that Kiev is happy with is achieved, that

(28:02):
will be enough of a signal to Putin and to the Russians that
they have failed, and that will be enough of a signal to the
rest of the world that that unprovoked aggression does not
reward the aggressor? No, I don't think so.
I I think that the only Ukrainian flag flag over
Sevastopol is something that really triggers different way of
thinking in Moscow and and in Russia.

(28:26):
We have seen so many times ceasefires in Ukraine since
Russia started the war against Ukraine in February 2014.
Don't forget that Russia startedto occupy and illegally annexed
territories of Ukraine in February 2014.

(28:48):
And what happened in in September 2014, February 2015,
Minsk processes after declaring ceasefires.
And so they didn't actually leadto to lasting peace, not to say

(29:10):
just peace. So it was only time for Russia
to recoup to see that how well Western nations are ready to
help Ukraine, how solidly we back them up militarily and with

(29:31):
other capabilities. And they calculated
miscalculated that they can run over Ukraine easily in in
February or springtime 2022. But as we've seen, so they have
not changed their calculation ortheir objectives.

(29:51):
They want to destroy entire statehood of Ukraine.
Not only this is not about fightabout territory, this is much
more and because their second aim and much more important aim
is to destroy a Western alliance, basically saying they
want to destroy NATO. Because don't forget that their
ultimatum, which was delivered in December 2021 was so

(30:16):
explicitly about NATO, not aboutUkraine.
But NATO should withdraw its military infrastructure from the
countries who joined NATO after 1997.
Of course, since 2022 we have seen Finland and Sweden joining

(30:37):
NATO, which is actually part of strategic defeat of Russia.
If we think about situation in northwest, northeast past part
of of Europe. But again, you know, I
understand that Ukrainians have a certain limits and I've been

(31:01):
several times in front lines. I know how difficult the
situation is there. And if you don't have enough
support, obviously you try to balance the situation and
probably reach out to the the denominator what can be agreed
up and by supporters and allies and partners.

(31:23):
And Ukrainians called for unconditional ceasefire already
in March this year. We are at the end of October.
And actually what we see, Russiahas constantly, you know,
refused to have even ceasefire. And every time they talk about

(31:45):
that, they say that, oh, we cannot have ceasefire because we
haven't tackled yet the root causes of this war.
But their root 'cause, you know,understanding of root causes is
completely different than Ukrainians or ours.
So it's there are no preconditions for any kind of

(32:05):
negotiations that could lead us to a just and lasting peace.
And, and I think that the only, you know, way what can really
push Russians to accept that their aggression is not going to
succeed or accept negotiations is that Ukraine will prevail on

(32:30):
the battlefield. Yeah.
And, and look, I, I, I have absolutely no hesitation in
agreeing with you that you absolutely cannot trust Moscow
on these questions. And the, the, the proposition
that they, that Putin is actually seeking peace in in
some form is just seems ludicrous to me.
Then. I mean, what what do you make of
Donald Trump's position for mostof the last, you know, nine

(32:53):
months, 10 months or so that he's been powered, that that is
actually the case? You know, I think that general
desire to achieve peace is something that is very welcome
actually. Obviously, I think Ukrainians of
first ones who would like to seepeace coming as soon as

(33:15):
possible, because it's really terrible if we think that the
war is going on right now, nearly four years already.
Full scale war, which includes also massive air attacks all
across Ukraine, not only on our front lines and 10s or even

(33:35):
hundreds of thousands of people have perished in that war.
So, but again, if president of the United States says that this
war can be finished by, you know, simple deal making or
within 24 hours, we all know that.

(33:57):
Yeah, it's now White House has realised that this is not the
case and and this conflict of war is much more, you know, much
has a much higher magnitudes rather than even, you know, wars
or conflicts. He has managed to somehow stop

(34:19):
or to to reach some deals or peace.
But but here is it's not only about Ukraine, this is also
about America. Russians are not after, I can,
as I said, Ukraine, but also do derail leadership of the United
States in the world arena. And I don't know does Mr Trump

(34:45):
understands that or not. But if he thinks that he can run
away from this war, this war will catch him up sooner or
later. And This is why I think what has
happened recently during a NATO summit in The Hague, where NATO
allies actually have alleged significant amount of money to

(35:06):
defence expenditures. And not only because of Trump's
pressure, but realising that we have significant gaps and
deficiencies in our capabilitiesand realising our serious threat
is actually posed by Russia. And then that has helped us to,

(35:28):
let's say to handle sensitivities what we have in
our relations. But everybody in Europe, I
understand in Australia, the same way I understand that we
have to stick together. We have we should make this not

(35:50):
happen that Russia or China what, what is their aim?
Their aim is to divide us, Europeans, Americans or
Europeans, Australians and others and compact, compatulise
all kind of issues and regionalise our sort of
approach. And This is why transatlantic

(36:12):
alliances absolutely key factor to to bring this war to the end
as well, because unity matters. And that is really what Russia
understands as well, strength and unity and readiness to fight
for freedom. Yeah.
And I and I certainly hope that the relatively good terms of the

(36:34):
transatlantic relationship as they are now continue.
I sometimes wish that MAGA was was renamed Well, Make America
Great Again in the short term. Because to me it is
overwhelmingly obvious that it'sin US interests for there to be
a democratising, rule abiding world.

(36:56):
That you know that that that prioritising sort of short term
national interests over longer term contributions to a world in
which there are more democraciesand more countries abide by
international rules and norms clearly in US interests.
So anyway, that's my $0.02 worth.

(37:17):
And I think that true transatlantic alliance members
like Estonia and other like minded countries, we work
tirelessly to keep alliance strong and sound and and also
work with our colleagues across the bond to to make it stronger

(37:40):
and and very much visible for our enemies as well.
The deterrence is something is which is critically important
today than perhaps ever before. But we have to realise that
Russia is not fighting their fight also only conventionally.
You know, very modern words, hybrid warfare.

(38:04):
What I personally don't like, but because this is basically
tells you that this is not something serious.
This is some, you know, perhaps separated cases somewhere.
But I have to be very blunt here.
Russia is carrying out shadow war at us and, you know,
interfering in our internal lives and the electoral

(38:28):
processes and and, you know, using social media and all these
kind of different bubbles fight for hearts and minds.
Today's critically important andthat is why we who really stand
strong on democratic values and and understand how important it
is for democracies to stick together.

(38:50):
We have to share best practises,how to fight back, how to not
not really kind of describe whatis happening, but be proactive
and help each other in that fight.
So you prefer the term Shadow War?
Yes, of course, right. This is what this is exactly
what is going. On Yeah, let's, let's see if we
can make that catch on. So you look, you've referenced

(39:14):
Estonia, your your membership ofNATO.
I in the course of my research for this, I came across the
phrase never, never alone again,which is which is Estonia's
motto about alliances. I gather it goes back to the
former foreign minister and President Lynette Merritt.
Explain what that means for Estonia.
I mean, obviously it kind of speaks for itself, but just
explain how that has sort of infused the Estonian political

(39:37):
attitudes and the Estonian attitudes towards Europe.
That brings us back to to World War 2, because prior World War 2
Estonia was neutral country and we hope that neutrality pays
off. That small nation as we are, we
can survive if world goes crazy.Unfortunately that was

(39:59):
miscalculation. We weren't able to form alliance
in the Baltic nautic area in the1930s and Soviets obviously used
that. So we lost during World War 225%

(40:19):
of our population, both killed by Soviets.
Or deported to Siberia. Or people who were pushed to
emigration. And we are very happy that
Australia was one of those countries who welcomed our
refugees in 1940s and 50s. So when we regained our

(40:43):
independence in 1991, that was immediately clear to everybody,
including you mentioned our LA President Lennart Merry, who
said that yes, we have to do nowand forever everything that we

(41:04):
will never be alone again. So it's, this is our mantra and
this is very much shared not only among politicians in our
mind or they are in coalition orin opposition, but also in
general in society. Because we understand that while
Russia hasn't changed and their imperial push is there and the

(41:24):
threat is existential to us, we have to stick to that very idea
that yes, we do everything what did it, it should be done by by
our nation. And we spend a lot to defence.
Next year alone we go up to 5% of GDP only for military

(41:52):
expenditures or defence expenditures at the end.
Least for next 10 years or so wewe keep that level.
But we understand that we can put even 100% of GDP for our
defence, but that doesn't help to deter the possible threat.
So we have to have every single moment reliable allies,

(42:15):
partners. And This is why our membership
in NATO since 2004 is a key element obviously of deterring
threats from our borders. And we invest a lot into
multilateral organisations, diplomacy, which is why my

(42:38):
delegation is today here in Australia as well seeking the
the more deeper cooperation between our countries and and
this is what has helped our internal debates when it comes
to foreign policy and security policy to be very much consensus

(42:58):
based. And we are very happy about
that, that in Estonia we can really have a very strong focus
on what we should do internationally.
Yeah. And I mean, look, I, I really
hope that that point is, is heard, listen to picked up by
our listeners and elsewhere. Because I mean, if I, I look at
Estonia, you have a neighbour toyour E that is 100 times the

(43:22):
size of you in terms of population, more than 100 times.
I think with, as you say, a history of, of, of imperialism,
this idea that is occasionally swallowed by people in the West,
Thankfully not, it's not a common view in Australia.
But this idea that NATO expansion up to Russia's borders
was somehow a provocation absolutely does my head in.

(43:42):
And if I look at a country like Estonia and look at it from your
perspective, what on earth else were you supposed to do other
than to start the process to signing up to NATO and EU the
moment that you are liberated from from Soviet rule?
So. Absolutely.
And this is the only way. How do we see how can Russian
imperialism be kept at Bay? This is why important also to

(44:07):
envision that there is only, youknow, security guarantee for
Ukraine available in this world and that is NATO membership.
And and those who are trying to explain that Russia and
obviously Russians, this is Russian narrative that, you

(44:28):
know, they had to do something because NATO enlarged or broke a
promise what was given, which iscomplete lie again.
But This is why our tragic history tells us that, you know,
in order to survive next to Russia, we have to have, you

(44:52):
know, alliance who keeps them within their own borders.
And we are very happy actually. Yes, we have eastern neighbour
who is hostile, but we are very happy that you have enormously
successful neighbours all aroundin Scandinavia and all the

(45:16):
countries in the in the Baltic countries.
This is the closest kinship and neighbour and an alliance or
regional alliance. You can see, you know, probably
nowhere else than in in our partof the world.
And now when Sweden, Finland aremembers of NATO, then this is

(45:36):
unique moment for, for all of usto actually do, you know, do
everything possible to keep stability in our region.
And, and This is why Estonia, you know a small nation, but we
are very dynamic in development.During last 30 years we have
become first digital nation in in the world.

(46:01):
There is a very strong startup mentality within society, the
catch up mentality, let's say, and we have more than 10
unicorns already, the highest per capita in the world tells
you that. Nevertheless, we have this
strategic location at the at thesame time has given us also this

(46:23):
kind of dynamism within society,which pushes us to be more and
more successful. Wow. 10 unicorns in a country of
is a 1.3 million people. Yes, that's pretty remarkable.
It is. And and on that note, we are,
we're looking forward to hostingyour Foreign Minister, Argus
Sapner. As for our Sydney dialogue, our
tech conference. So it was very appropriate to
have Estonia, given how you're familiar with the phrase punch

(46:46):
above your weight, very much punches above its weight in tech
terms. But look, Marco, that's been a
fantastic chat. I'm going to wrap it there.
But thanks for coming on Stop the World.
Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to Stop the
World. We'll be back with another
episode next week.