October 20, 2023 • 31 mins
Hello listeners! Welcome back to the Strength in Recovery podcast. We're here this week with our Raritan Bay Alumni Team, Marguerite Warner & Rahi Patel. They answer some burning recovery questions, open up about their personal experiences, and have a few laughs with Jaye! Tune in now to hear some amazing perspectives. *The views and opinions expressed by the guests of this podcast are their own and not necessarily those of RCA. These interviews are personal testimonials of recovery and should not be considered medical or treatment advice. Need treatment? Call 1-833-RCAALUM today. Looking for support? Visit www.rcaalumni.com.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello listeners, welcome to the Strength and Recovery podcast.
(00:20):
I'm your host Jay Rodenbush sitting down today with Rahi Patel and Marguerite Warner.
They are our alumni program for Raritan Bay.
I found a list of just common questions about addiction and I think this would be kind of
fun to bounce off of you.
(00:40):
Why can't drug addicts quit on their own?
The first person that said this to me, you know, like they were like my God until I found
God because self can't see self, it's impossible.
It is impossible.
And until another person who has experienced exactly what you were going through can look
(01:00):
at you and be objective with you, they have the courage to be objective and not concerned
with your feelings but more your life, you know, and they present it that way, it just
blows your mind because you can't see it.
I truly believe that I was the least selfish person you'd ever want to meet that if I had
(01:21):
the opportunity to be friends with me, I would want to be.
I just thought, you know what I mean, I really truly did.
And you know, when I finally started going through the process and the shift started
happening, I was like, oh my God, you know, my ego will deceive me morning, noon, and night
before my eyes are fully open, my ego is trying to deceive me.
(01:44):
I can't see that I believe it is fact.
Yeah.
Right?
I believe what my ego says is fact.
I need you to approach me.
Yeah.
I need you to see that.
You can't.
What do you think?
There's like exactly what Marguerite said, there's power in like unity, you know, like
being a part of something is literally what it takes to be able to see different because
(02:10):
you can't during that stage, you know, active drug addiction or alcoholism.
And if we could have done it by ourselves, we would have.
Yeah.
We would have.
Because it helps a hard word.
I think too, so much about addiction is about isolation.
(02:31):
And it does make you isolate.
Because you're one true love, your best friend, your biggest passion, you know, your worst
enemy becomes everything you need.
And so they don't need the opposite of that.
They will say often is connection and getting people connected.
Yeah, imagine going through that process where you totally cut yourself off emotionally,
(02:53):
maybe not physically, you might have to present in front of people, but emotionally you've
cut yourself off from the entire planet.
And for the first time you sit down and you're talking with another human being that and
as they're speaking, they are saying exactly how you feel, exactly how you think they're
sharing your fears and you truly believed this entire time that you were the only person
on the planet that felt that way.
(03:15):
That's what begins to break you out of isolation because you finally have somebody else alongside
of you that feels exactly the way you do.
And I could sit down next to Rahi and he knows what I'm thinking and feeling without
me even speaking.
It's mind blowing.
That's what people in recovery.
I've been with you in a situation where you knew someone was drinking immediately.
(03:38):
Someone who was in recovery would relapse, but you could pick up on that.
And you said, you know, it's easy for me to pick up on that.
We just know it.
I mean, yeah.
But the beauty in that is coming from a person who you know genuinely cares about you and
(04:02):
your well-being.
It's not like a parent, a sibling, a spouse, you know, it's another person in recovery
who knows how you feel.
We've been there.
We know how hard this is.
Talk to parents.
Okay.
So the question would be, how do you explain this to the non-alcoholic, the non-addict specifically
(04:25):
your family?
That's the toughest part, you know, to try to break down, you know, the disease of alcoholism
or addiction to a parent or someone who's unknowing.
Like, thankfully we do have resources where they do a good job at breaking it down.
Like, you know, my parents didn't have the slightest idea, you know, being immigrants.
(04:49):
They had not the slightest idea, but with the use of Narnon and Al-Anon, they kind of
got it all together, like, okay, wow, you know, addiction, alcoholism is a thing.
But to like break it down to some, it's tough, but we do have a lot more resources than in
the past.
(05:10):
So it's heartbreaking for someone or a family to know what it actually is, but it's understandable,
you know.
I think I would take that down to how do you talk to a child?
So we're all at different stages, we're all at different, how do you have those conversations?
(05:34):
I think one of the most heartbreaking experiences I had in early recovery is when, of course,
I had therapy as well.
I went to therapy for quite a while.
We also had my son in therapy, and there are times when you get to do those sessions
together and when he point blanks said to me, you chose alcohol over me.
(06:00):
That was probably one of the most crushing moments, you know, because immediately I wanted
to say to him, no, I didn't, and I had to stop myself.
I had to stop myself, and I had to honor him, and I had to acknowledge him, you know, because
stone cold sober choosing to pick the first one up, that is a conscious decision, but
(06:25):
moving forward after that, it's no longer my choice.
It dictates what I do, how I do it, and when I do it, but how do you tell 10, 11, 12-year-old
child that you are my parent, you are responsible to show up and be in my life and not do these
things, you know.
To look at him and acknowledge that, and I had to say yes, I did.
(06:48):
I think another relationship, I guess, with kind of going this fan, how do you talk to
a potential partner, a girlfriend, you know, you're a single guy, how do you bring recovery
into your dating life?
So with that, it's clear boundaries, set in clear boundaries, you know.
(07:11):
Do you have certain things that you do for your recovery, go into meetings, sponsoring
others maybe?
I lay that all out on the table, you know, like what's funny is a past relationship,
this girl wanted to go wine tasting, I'm like, you know, I got no business doing that, she
goes, what do you mean?
I'm like, I'm allergic to alcohol, like I have no problem setting those boundaries, especially
(07:33):
to someone who's not knowing or not in a program where they eventually do respect it, they might
not get it, but they'll respect it.
When do you say that in the process?
Like, I'm up front, right away.
Right away?
Yeah.
Yeah, I'd rather tell you right away before there's any feelings developed because if
it's somebody is uncomfortable with it, they need the opportunity to honor their feelings,
(07:57):
right?
I think it's good.
Any other thoughts on that?
Don't jump to date in the rooms, that's kind of from my own experience, you know, don't
jump to get yourself in a relationship.
Sorry, just to have that companionship, like once I truly learned to be happy with myself,
(08:23):
that's when I was able to find that, you know, partnership with someone else.
And they make the suggestion do date in the first year, right?
Believe it.
Live by it.
How important is that?
Very, very.
You know, I had to experience it myself to realize the chaos that comes from dating too
early in recovery.
(08:44):
This one of these questions is, how can I tell if someone is struggling with addiction?
I think for us, it's different than for those that aren't afflicted with, you know, or not
really afflicted with, for those that aren't addicts or alcoholics.
For us, it's really pretty easy.
You know, your behaviors change.
(09:06):
You start to isolate, you know, with alcohol, you tend to be able to smell it with certain
types of drugs.
You can tell it in, you know, pupil dilation or, you know, I mean, for us, we can see things
that maybe the average person can't.
What would you say?
I mean, too apparent.
I mean, you were able to go under the radar for quite some time.
(09:28):
You know, people didn't know.
What would you say to parents of teenagers?
What would you be looking for if you had a teenager at this point?
And what would you...?
Who their friends are and who they hang out with.
If the parent takes a little more interest in finding out where they're going and where
(09:49):
they're at, then that kind of opens it up, especially if they're not sure of anything,
if there is a problem to begin with.
How do you help someone struggling with addiction?
That's like a tough one in any way possible, you know.
(10:13):
Oh, I like that.
In any way possible.
But as long as they're willing to receive help, and even if they aren't, we're still
here to show them that there is a way out.
How does someone have that conversation?
You think your husband, you think your spouse, you think your son, daughter is struggling.
(10:34):
They haven't admitted it yet.
How do you have that conversation?
It's very difficult.
I won't say that it isn't, but I would say be doing it in a loving, respectful way.
Do it in a kind way with compassion.
And just for me, what works for me is if you just come out with it, don't dance around
(10:59):
it, don't make a five minute question, an hour long conversation, just like bring it
to me.
And I don't mean being direct, but be clear, be honest.
This is the person that you married and you plan on spending the rest of your life with.
(11:20):
If you can't sit down with that person and just say, hey, I'm really having a hard time.
Make it about you, not necessarily them, because for me, as soon as you start pointing a finger
at me, if I'm active in my addiction, the defense is going to go up, the walls are
going to go up, I'm probably going to push the chair in and walk out and go do what I
(11:41):
do.
But if you come to me to the best of your ability, even if you're faking it, I'm going
to be in a compassionate, loving way and say, I'm really struggling, I love you and this
is what I'm observing and I'm here for you and I want to help.
How can we do this thing together?
I will be more willing, I mean, you're going to bring my walls down and I'm going to be
(12:05):
more willing to want to accept your help.
But if you're coming at me, loaded for bear, is that what they say?
Yeah, I'm out the door.
Any thoughts for you on that?
I got to agree with that, if you come with a more supportive approach, like a softer
way, but obviously, you know, be straightforward with it, then it's possible.
(12:27):
But I was reliving a moment in my head, like a similar experience where the cat was out
of the bag but it wasn't.
Can you share with us?
Yeah, definitely.
You need some details?
Definitely.
I'm like, I need details.
I want you.
I got to, since we're not being vague and we're going to come right at it.
Just IOP before any inpatient or detoxes, that that was the first type of program and
(12:51):
I did.
That was my parents' first realization into the problem where they were getting that
resources from the therapist and meanwhile, I'm pushing it off.
I'm like, look, I'm passing all the drug tests, obviously, borrowing urine.
It's all case by case dependent, but that's where I was at.
(13:14):
I was throwing the chair, you know, brush and roll.
It takes so much work.
It does.
I listened to these stories and I'm like, oh my word, these poor people just need time
to rest.
And they're so creative, they're brilliant minds to be able to have very resourceful
(13:35):
people.
I think that's understatement of the year, resourceful.
Yeah.
So the cat's out of the bag.
Yeah, but so obviously still hiding it and not willing to admit that there is a problem
because that's also the tricky part too.
(13:57):
Not realizing it's a problem case-to-case basis, like for a teenager or someone who's
just going into it, they might not see the consequences as to it and it's too early on
and they don't see it's a problem yet because it hasn't been a problem in their life.
But seeing experience from someone else or a case study isn't enough until they start
(14:19):
dealing with the issues.
It's tough.
What resources do you recommend for families to start to educate themselves or a partner?
Where do you point them?
I'm honestly, I really liked our family programming.
(14:40):
I really did.
I heard a lot about it.
It wasn't until I was asked to speak for a little 20 minute piece and I logged on early
and I stayed a little later and I actually listened to the material and the presenter
and the way they were breaking things down and truthfully for me it was helpful.
(15:00):
The obvious ones to say are Al-Anon and Narnan, but RCA as a whole.
We offer a mother support program now where they're educating, they're supporting, they're
offering information and resources, but I believe it was seeds to recovery and the family program
presentations, they were really helpful for me.
I suggest them to people.
(15:23):
I mean, there's so much out there now with the internet, but finding those support groups,
finding like-minded people who are learning together, I think again addiction isolates.
I think there's so much stigma around it for a mom to say, my kid is struggling, you know,
(15:46):
they're no longer, it's one thing to post my kids on the dean's list, it's another
thing to post my kids in rehab.
You just, I mean, we don't do that.
Well, we isolate in the crowd of people too, isolation isn't just in a room by yourself
and I would imagine the parents and the significant others of children, you know, suffering with
(16:06):
addiction that they're out there socializing with their friends at dinner and maybe even
themselves having a glass of wine and they're dying inside and they can't talk to anybody
about that.
I think there's some things too, like, you know, you hear someone's kid had cancer and
you're going to be stopping off, you're dropping off castor rolls, you're, and we hear, oh,
(16:31):
their son has addiction and all of a sudden nobody knows what to say or do.
Exactly, that's the thing, nobody knows what to say, it's not ill-intended.
No, it's not ill-intended.
You just don't know what to say or how to, yeah.
And so all of a sudden even people who were your supporters often don't know what to do
and so finding new, you've got to find new groups.
(16:54):
Just like us.
You've got to get out there.
It's a family disease.
They suffer with an illness as well because we, you know, all those years of living in
fear and, you know, terrified that, you know, we're not going to come home at night, we're
not going to wake up in the middle of the night, you know, all those things, you know,
they need their support network, they need their growth.
There are 12-step programs for the family, you know, where they go through the whole
(17:18):
process as well, you know, so that they can detach themselves from the disease and just
be the child's parent.
Getting families on their own recovery journey.
Yeah.
Like this isn't just...
It's not.
Your kid or your spouse's recovery.
It's your recovery too.
They've been hostage, yeah, absolutely.
Finding good therapists that can support the family.
(17:43):
But the internet's your friend.
Rose, in this case maybe.
Ask some other people but get some recommendations.
About finding webinars, finding support groups, educating yourself.
And kind of in many of these circumstances, your power, your control is completely gone.
(18:06):
And so taking back some of that through education can be really impactful.
Yeah.
What other questions do you have for each other?
Oh yeah, something fun.
What's your favorite color?
Blue.
Why?
(18:27):
Because it looks nice.
That's a degui answer.
Sorry, Rahi.
No details.
Because it looks nice.
Okay, then we're free.
I guess you have to answer the question.
What's my favorite color?
Yeah.
It depends on the day.
Nice.
True, really, one day it'll be blue and it'll be put on and my eyes pop.
(18:52):
I'm in a little vein when it comes to color.
And other days it would be those crazy peach shoes.
I was going to say yesterday it was peach.
I can tell you that.
Yeah.
Marguerite had new shoes and we all knew it.
Yes, yeah.
They were super cute.
They arrived in the room before I did.
Come on, make me happy.
(19:14):
Your face lit up.
That's what happens to me.
When I'm in a store and I see a color, it just does something inside of me and it makes
me happy.
So sometimes the shoes might be looked upon by someone else as boy, they're gaudy, but
I don't care.
I have to buy them and I have to wear them.
What about replacing one addiction for another?
(19:36):
Oh, I've done it.
How does that relate to shopping?
I've done it.
I've done it with relationships.
I've done it with spending money.
I've definitely done it with shopping.
And how you know when you're doing it is you're getting this rush when you're buying it.
And I don't mean like that joy, like that tickles up the peach shoes, but you get this
(20:00):
rush and you can't get enough in your cart and you can't get enough in your Amazon cart.
And then it's there and it's like, oh yeah, this is cute.
I haven't even worn it one yet and I care less if I return it or not.
There's a whole different feel to it.
Have you experienced that?
Yeah, when you put it on, you're still not feeling that rush and the joy of buying it.
(20:21):
It's gone.
It's gone the second you get it.
Two years ago, yeah, 100% shopping, the worst, by far the worst.
And I'm more, you know, I could see it now because I walk into my bedroom and there's
like 100 boxes of shoes and some of them are...
It's both like shoes.
(20:41):
No, it's not.
I get disgusted looking at it now.
Like I could have saved all that money instead of just swiping away on Nike app on the iPhone.
You know what I mean?
Like it sickens me now and I wish I could go back in time and not buy some of them.
How did you get out of that?
How did you do real...
Did you just recognize it?
(21:02):
Yeah.
Did you make it part of your practices?
So how do you incorporate that?
That's what he and I, like the work that we do, you know, the 12 step practice is a heightened
awareness of self.
That's what I'm seeking.
You know, that's my goal.
I need this heightened awareness of self, how it shows up, how my disease shows up.
Once you have that heightened awareness, you might fall prey to it once or twice.
(21:26):
But by the time you're getting ready to do the third swipe, you're like, no, wait a minute,
I need to think this thing through.
What are you doing?
I mean, like I could go on an app and buy a $500 belt, right?
By the time that belt arrives, you know what I'm saying?
But what ends up happening is like as I'm per...
When I'm surfing, I actually start to feel that awareness of like, what are you doing?
(21:48):
What void are you trying to fill right now?
What's going on?
That's an important question, right?
That's an important question, right?
There's this thing we call pause.
Legit.
I wear my pause button around my neck.
We have this thing called pause, right?
You need to pause.
We're either agitated, doubtful, we're seeking, we're needing, there's something.
Okay, slow down.
Pause a minute because I want to get that.
Yeah, you need to pause and just step back.
(22:09):
So Marguerite is wearing a very simple, beautiful gold chain with a little charm on it that's
got the two lines.
Yeah, it's my pause.
It's the pause.
Sometimes I just grab it and hold on to it just for no reason.
Because you need to consider the decision?
Because I needed just to pause with, most of the time I needed the pause of my thinking.
(22:31):
Not necessarily a decision in that moment, but throughout the day, I'm forever, I fidget.
Thoughts can come through.
I love the saying, I've heard it for a lot before, it's not mine, but like a bird can
land on your head.
You can't do anything if a bird lands on your head, right?
(22:52):
But you can keep it from building a nest.
And so that pause goes, wait a minute, it's this thought.
But we become conditioned to do that with everything.
So like there's set things to be aware of, right?
But until you do the work to have a heightened awareness, you're not even aware it's going
on.
I legit let my subconscious run my life for 40 years.
(23:13):
Wow.
Didn't know my subconscious was running my life because I wasn't aware of it.
I truly believed that the thoughts that I was having that generated the feelings that I
was having, which caused the behaviors that I was displaying were fact.
So thoughts, thoughts lead to feelings.
And then the feeling would lead to the action.
(23:34):
And I really legit thought that that was it.
That was the real deal.
And so that pause makes you go, and do you question, do you go back to the thought?
Do you go back to the feeling or to the behavior?
Do you know what I do when I pause?
I ask God to remove it, to direct my thinking, show me how to be helpful to another human
being because I'm caught up in myself again.
(23:54):
And it's human instinct to be caught up in ourselves.
I am a recovered woman.
And being recovered, right?
I no longer suffer the symptoms of the illness, right?
That's the definition of being recovered.
So the symptoms of my illness are to be so self-focused that I can't see you.
And even while you're talking to me about something really significant in your life,
(24:14):
and I'm staring you right in the eyeball, I'm not hearing a word you're saying, I need
to pause and I need to reposition myself and hear you, right?
And hear what's going on in my head.
And I know today that I didn't have the power in the past to do anything about that.
I lived as if that was who I was, right?
Today I know that that's false.
False evidence appearing real, right?
(24:36):
The fear thing.
But I know that evidence is false.
And I have the opportunity right there in that moment to pause and say, wow.
I'm feeling agitated.
I'm feeling fearful.
I'm feeling...
And so when you're examining those feelings...
It takes a matter of a second now.
And what do you do?
In that moment I pause and I ask God to remove it and direct my thinking.
(24:58):
But if you're seeing I'm feeling fearful.
Yeah, I'm feeling fearful.
Do you ask yourself why?
That's my inventory process.
A part of my tenth step process, tenth and eleventh step process, which I'm going to
keep taking it back to the steps because it showed me how to live.
I didn't know how to live.
I was ill-equipped with that, you know, that ability.
But what I do in that moment when I pause and immediately I ask, I'm like, I'm feeling
(25:22):
angry.
I'm feeling resentful.
Please remove this.
Please direct my thinking to your will, not my will.
Because apparently I'm involved in self-again.
That talk of war has begun.
And direct me and immediately look for someone that I can help.
But a part of that process too is I need to make a phone call.
I need to go sit in an office with somebody else that's in 12-step recovery and say, hey,
can I do a quick tenth step with you and talk to them about, and they're listening.
(25:45):
Slow down, Margaret.
Tell us.
You want to talk about the steps?
No, I want to.
I'm getting amped up.
I'm getting amped up.
That's the difference.
I think it's the Celsius.
The dream.
The margarine.
It might be.
It might be.
But when I get super passionate about self-recovery and I become a completely different human being.
So you go into someone's office and you say, I want to do a tenth step.
What's that like?
(26:06):
What's that like is, you know, if Rahi is somebody that I give spiritual consent to,
which means that I know he works a solid program of recovery, I respect that he is going to
be open and be able to receive what I'm saying and give me constructive feedback and not try
to be my employee or my friend or my coworker.
Like, he's going to give me constructive feedback and he's going to say what I'm hearing is.
(26:30):
And I need you to say to me what I'm hearing is you didn't get your way.
So you're going to say, I have a resentment?
No, I'm going to say.
Or I have...
Sometimes what it sounds like is I am so pissed off.
Do you know what happened to my group today?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he's going to have the ability to sit and just let me get it out.
(26:51):
He's pausing now.
And then he's going to say, can I offer this for your consideration?
Okay.
It's never like this is what you are doing, but can you consider this, you know?
And then just say, this is what I'm hearing.
And as he's saying what I'm hearing, that stuff melts out of my body.
I can physically feel it leaving because he's spot on.
(27:12):
I was afraid of someone's opinion of me.
I was afraid my ego was getting in the way, my pride.
All these things were coming up that I couldn't see in that moment.
He's going to help me to see them and identify them.
And that's what the fellowship offers, right?
(27:33):
That's what...
That's what I would say more.
The fellowship, yes, does offer, but that's what a sponsor and that's what somebody that
has a solid, profound experience with the 12 Steps of Recovery.
Because not everybody in your fellowship, honestly, not everybody in the program has
worked the steps, has had that experience.
And that's okay.
If you're staying sober, that way more power to them.
(27:54):
But for me, it's this is life or death and I have to do that.
How do you examine emotions as they come up, feelings as they come up?
I can't say it any better than Marguerite, but it's like character development for me.
I want to be a better version of myself the next day and be able to adequately handle
similar situations and scenarios in a more positive way.
(28:17):
So I've heard her break this down 10 times better than me, but the character development
and change really happened when I started actively working a step 11 every night doing
that daily reprieve and seeing who I harmed, do I owe anyone an apology and how I was in
(28:37):
a certain situation and I could have been different.
And so when I started doing that and then going over that with my sponsor once a week
of difference, that's when that character development became a whole lot better that
I no longer acted with anger or frustration, able to deal with situations as they come
instead of just acting on impulse because I used to do that a whole lot and you see
(28:59):
that like you know I'm big on character development and you'll see like my time as opposed to
like Marguerite's time where you can see how she breaks everything down.
So it's just it's it's great and like how she said like there's been times where you
know I've had to run something by her to get that you know advice on how to handle a situation
or how to go about it as opposed to you know jumping on my own and knowing I could have
(29:22):
dug myself a nice hole.
Yeah.
And then I can clean it off.
I don't like clean up.
This has been so good.
Thank you both for your time.
This episode was a little different today just to answering some questions and talking,
listening to us just have a fun conversation so a needed conversation.
(29:47):
So thank you for tuning in.
If you or someone you know needs help please reach out 1-833-RCA-ALUMN contact one of our
coordinators.
They really can be your recovery resource and link you to the support that you need to get
help to get help for our friends and family or just to learn more about recovery.
(30:14):
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(30:38):
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We host a full calendar of virtual and in-person meetings seven days a week, 365 days a year
as well as free sober events every month.
To learn more about what we do find us at rcaalumni.com.
(30:59):
Remember if you or a loved one is struggling with addiction pick up the phone and dial 1-833-RCA-ALUMN.
Help is available 24-7.
Listen to another episode now or join us next time for the Strength and Recovery podcast.
Hello listeners, welcome to the Strength and Recovery podcast.
(00:20):
I'm your host Jay Rodenbush sitting down today with Rahi Patel and Marguerite Warner.
They are our alumni program for Raritan Bay.
I found a list of just common questions about addiction and I think this would be kind of
fun to bounce off of you.
(00:40):
Why can't drug addicts quit on their own?
The first person that said this to me, you know, like they were like my God until I found
God because self can't see self, it's impossible.
It is impossible.
And until another person who has experienced exactly what you were going through can look
(01:00):
at you and be objective with you, they have the courage to be objective and not concerned
with your feelings but more your life, you know, and they present it that way, it just
blows your mind because you can't see it.
I truly believe that I was the least selfish person you'd ever want to meet that if I had
(01:21):
the opportunity to be friends with me, I would want to be.
I just thought, you know what I mean, I really truly did.
And you know, when I finally started going through the process and the shift started
happening, I was like, oh my God, you know, my ego will deceive me morning, noon, and night
before my eyes are fully open, my ego is trying to deceive me.
(01:44):
I can't see that I believe it is fact.
Yeah.
Right?
I believe what my ego says is fact.
I need you to approach me.
Yeah.
I need you to see that.
You can't.
What do you think?
There's like exactly what Marguerite said, there's power in like unity, you know, like
being a part of something is literally what it takes to be able to see different because
(02:10):
you can't during that stage, you know, active drug addiction or alcoholism.
And if we could have done it by ourselves, we would have.
Yeah.
We would have.
Because it helps a hard word.
I think too, so much about addiction is about isolation.
(02:31):
And it does make you isolate.
Because you're one true love, your best friend, your biggest passion, you know, your worst
enemy becomes everything you need.
And so they don't need the opposite of that.
They will say often is connection and getting people connected.
Yeah, imagine going through that process where you totally cut yourself off emotionally,
(02:53):
maybe not physically, you might have to present in front of people, but emotionally you've
cut yourself off from the entire planet.
And for the first time you sit down and you're talking with another human being that and
as they're speaking, they are saying exactly how you feel, exactly how you think they're
sharing your fears and you truly believed this entire time that you were the only person
on the planet that felt that way.
(03:15):
That's what begins to break you out of isolation because you finally have somebody else alongside
of you that feels exactly the way you do.
And I could sit down next to Rahi and he knows what I'm thinking and feeling without
me even speaking.
It's mind blowing.
That's what people in recovery.
I've been with you in a situation where you knew someone was drinking immediately.
(03:38):
Someone who was in recovery would relapse, but you could pick up on that.
And you said, you know, it's easy for me to pick up on that.
We just know it.
I mean, yeah.
But the beauty in that is coming from a person who you know genuinely cares about you and
(04:02):
your well-being.
It's not like a parent, a sibling, a spouse, you know, it's another person in recovery
who knows how you feel.
We've been there.
We know how hard this is.
Talk to parents.
Okay.
So the question would be, how do you explain this to the non-alcoholic, the non-addict specifically
(04:25):
your family?
That's the toughest part, you know, to try to break down, you know, the disease of alcoholism
or addiction to a parent or someone who's unknowing.
Like, thankfully we do have resources where they do a good job at breaking it down.
Like, you know, my parents didn't have the slightest idea, you know, being immigrants.
(04:49):
They had not the slightest idea, but with the use of Narnon and Al-Anon, they kind of
got it all together, like, okay, wow, you know, addiction, alcoholism is a thing.
But to like break it down to some, it's tough, but we do have a lot more resources than in
the past.
(05:10):
So it's heartbreaking for someone or a family to know what it actually is, but it's understandable,
you know.
I think I would take that down to how do you talk to a child?
So we're all at different stages, we're all at different, how do you have those conversations?
(05:34):
I think one of the most heartbreaking experiences I had in early recovery is when, of course,
I had therapy as well.
I went to therapy for quite a while.
We also had my son in therapy, and there are times when you get to do those sessions
together and when he point blanks said to me, you chose alcohol over me.
(06:00):
That was probably one of the most crushing moments, you know, because immediately I wanted
to say to him, no, I didn't, and I had to stop myself.
I had to stop myself, and I had to honor him, and I had to acknowledge him, you know, because
stone cold sober choosing to pick the first one up, that is a conscious decision, but
(06:25):
moving forward after that, it's no longer my choice.
It dictates what I do, how I do it, and when I do it, but how do you tell 10, 11, 12-year-old
child that you are my parent, you are responsible to show up and be in my life and not do these
things, you know.
To look at him and acknowledge that, and I had to say yes, I did.
(06:48):
I think another relationship, I guess, with kind of going this fan, how do you talk to
a potential partner, a girlfriend, you know, you're a single guy, how do you bring recovery
into your dating life?
So with that, it's clear boundaries, set in clear boundaries, you know.
(07:11):
Do you have certain things that you do for your recovery, go into meetings, sponsoring
others maybe?
I lay that all out on the table, you know, like what's funny is a past relationship,
this girl wanted to go wine tasting, I'm like, you know, I got no business doing that, she
goes, what do you mean?
I'm like, I'm allergic to alcohol, like I have no problem setting those boundaries, especially
(07:33):
to someone who's not knowing or not in a program where they eventually do respect it, they might
not get it, but they'll respect it.
When do you say that in the process?
Like, I'm up front, right away.
Right away?
Yeah.
Yeah, I'd rather tell you right away before there's any feelings developed because if
it's somebody is uncomfortable with it, they need the opportunity to honor their feelings,
(07:57):
right?
I think it's good.
Any other thoughts on that?
Don't jump to date in the rooms, that's kind of from my own experience, you know, don't
jump to get yourself in a relationship.
Sorry, just to have that companionship, like once I truly learned to be happy with myself,
(08:23):
that's when I was able to find that, you know, partnership with someone else.
And they make the suggestion do date in the first year, right?
Believe it.
Live by it.
How important is that?
Very, very.
You know, I had to experience it myself to realize the chaos that comes from dating too
early in recovery.
(08:44):
This one of these questions is, how can I tell if someone is struggling with addiction?
I think for us, it's different than for those that aren't afflicted with, you know, or not
really afflicted with, for those that aren't addicts or alcoholics.
For us, it's really pretty easy.
You know, your behaviors change.
(09:06):
You start to isolate, you know, with alcohol, you tend to be able to smell it with certain
types of drugs.
You can tell it in, you know, pupil dilation or, you know, I mean, for us, we can see things
that maybe the average person can't.
What would you say?
I mean, too apparent.
I mean, you were able to go under the radar for quite some time.
(09:28):
You know, people didn't know.
What would you say to parents of teenagers?
What would you be looking for if you had a teenager at this point?
And what would you...?
Who their friends are and who they hang out with.
If the parent takes a little more interest in finding out where they're going and where
(09:49):
they're at, then that kind of opens it up, especially if they're not sure of anything,
if there is a problem to begin with.
How do you help someone struggling with addiction?
That's like a tough one in any way possible, you know.
(10:13):
Oh, I like that.
In any way possible.
But as long as they're willing to receive help, and even if they aren't, we're still
here to show them that there is a way out.
How does someone have that conversation?
You think your husband, you think your spouse, you think your son, daughter is struggling.
(10:34):
They haven't admitted it yet.
How do you have that conversation?
It's very difficult.
I won't say that it isn't, but I would say be doing it in a loving, respectful way.
Do it in a kind way with compassion.
And just for me, what works for me is if you just come out with it, don't dance around
(10:59):
it, don't make a five minute question, an hour long conversation, just like bring it
to me.
And I don't mean being direct, but be clear, be honest.
This is the person that you married and you plan on spending the rest of your life with.
(11:20):
If you can't sit down with that person and just say, hey, I'm really having a hard time.
Make it about you, not necessarily them, because for me, as soon as you start pointing a finger
at me, if I'm active in my addiction, the defense is going to go up, the walls are
going to go up, I'm probably going to push the chair in and walk out and go do what I
(11:41):
do.
But if you come to me to the best of your ability, even if you're faking it, I'm going
to be in a compassionate, loving way and say, I'm really struggling, I love you and this
is what I'm observing and I'm here for you and I want to help.
How can we do this thing together?
I will be more willing, I mean, you're going to bring my walls down and I'm going to be
(12:05):
more willing to want to accept your help.
But if you're coming at me, loaded for bear, is that what they say?
Yeah, I'm out the door.
Any thoughts for you on that?
I got to agree with that, if you come with a more supportive approach, like a softer
way, but obviously, you know, be straightforward with it, then it's possible.
(12:27):
But I was reliving a moment in my head, like a similar experience where the cat was out
of the bag but it wasn't.
Can you share with us?
Yeah, definitely.
You need some details?
Definitely.
I'm like, I need details.
I want you.
I got to, since we're not being vague and we're going to come right at it.
Just IOP before any inpatient or detoxes, that that was the first type of program and
(12:51):
I did.
That was my parents' first realization into the problem where they were getting that
resources from the therapist and meanwhile, I'm pushing it off.
I'm like, look, I'm passing all the drug tests, obviously, borrowing urine.
It's all case by case dependent, but that's where I was at.
(13:14):
I was throwing the chair, you know, brush and roll.
It takes so much work.
It does.
I listened to these stories and I'm like, oh my word, these poor people just need time
to rest.
And they're so creative, they're brilliant minds to be able to have very resourceful
(13:35):
people.
I think that's understatement of the year, resourceful.
Yeah.
So the cat's out of the bag.
Yeah, but so obviously still hiding it and not willing to admit that there is a problem
because that's also the tricky part too.
(13:57):
Not realizing it's a problem case-to-case basis, like for a teenager or someone who's
just going into it, they might not see the consequences as to it and it's too early on
and they don't see it's a problem yet because it hasn't been a problem in their life.
But seeing experience from someone else or a case study isn't enough until they start
(14:19):
dealing with the issues.
It's tough.
What resources do you recommend for families to start to educate themselves or a partner?
Where do you point them?
I'm honestly, I really liked our family programming.
(14:40):
I really did.
I heard a lot about it.
It wasn't until I was asked to speak for a little 20 minute piece and I logged on early
and I stayed a little later and I actually listened to the material and the presenter
and the way they were breaking things down and truthfully for me it was helpful.
(15:00):
The obvious ones to say are Al-Anon and Narnan, but RCA as a whole.
We offer a mother support program now where they're educating, they're supporting, they're
offering information and resources, but I believe it was seeds to recovery and the family program
presentations, they were really helpful for me.
I suggest them to people.
(15:23):
I mean, there's so much out there now with the internet, but finding those support groups,
finding like-minded people who are learning together, I think again addiction isolates.
I think there's so much stigma around it for a mom to say, my kid is struggling, you know,
(15:46):
they're no longer, it's one thing to post my kids on the dean's list, it's another
thing to post my kids in rehab.
You just, I mean, we don't do that.
Well, we isolate in the crowd of people too, isolation isn't just in a room by yourself
and I would imagine the parents and the significant others of children, you know, suffering with
(16:06):
addiction that they're out there socializing with their friends at dinner and maybe even
themselves having a glass of wine and they're dying inside and they can't talk to anybody
about that.
I think there's some things too, like, you know, you hear someone's kid had cancer and
you're going to be stopping off, you're dropping off castor rolls, you're, and we hear, oh,
(16:31):
their son has addiction and all of a sudden nobody knows what to say or do.
Exactly, that's the thing, nobody knows what to say, it's not ill-intended.
No, it's not ill-intended.
You just don't know what to say or how to, yeah.
And so all of a sudden even people who were your supporters often don't know what to do
and so finding new, you've got to find new groups.
(16:54):
Just like us.
You've got to get out there.
It's a family disease.
They suffer with an illness as well because we, you know, all those years of living in
fear and, you know, terrified that, you know, we're not going to come home at night, we're
not going to wake up in the middle of the night, you know, all those things, you know,
they need their support network, they need their growth.
There are 12-step programs for the family, you know, where they go through the whole
(17:18):
process as well, you know, so that they can detach themselves from the disease and just
be the child's parent.
Getting families on their own recovery journey.
Yeah.
Like this isn't just...
It's not.
Your kid or your spouse's recovery.
It's your recovery too.
They've been hostage, yeah, absolutely.
Finding good therapists that can support the family.
(17:43):
But the internet's your friend.
Rose, in this case maybe.
Ask some other people but get some recommendations.
About finding webinars, finding support groups, educating yourself.
And kind of in many of these circumstances, your power, your control is completely gone.
(18:06):
And so taking back some of that through education can be really impactful.
Yeah.
What other questions do you have for each other?
Oh yeah, something fun.
What's your favorite color?
Blue.
Why?
(18:27):
Because it looks nice.
That's a degui answer.
Sorry, Rahi.
No details.
Because it looks nice.
Okay, then we're free.
I guess you have to answer the question.
What's my favorite color?
Yeah.
It depends on the day.
Nice.
True, really, one day it'll be blue and it'll be put on and my eyes pop.
(18:52):
I'm in a little vein when it comes to color.
And other days it would be those crazy peach shoes.
I was going to say yesterday it was peach.
I can tell you that.
Yeah.
Marguerite had new shoes and we all knew it.
Yes, yeah.
They were super cute.
They arrived in the room before I did.
Come on, make me happy.
(19:14):
Your face lit up.
That's what happens to me.
When I'm in a store and I see a color, it just does something inside of me and it makes
me happy.
So sometimes the shoes might be looked upon by someone else as boy, they're gaudy, but
I don't care.
I have to buy them and I have to wear them.
What about replacing one addiction for another?
(19:36):
Oh, I've done it.
How does that relate to shopping?
I've done it.
I've done it with relationships.
I've done it with spending money.
I've definitely done it with shopping.
And how you know when you're doing it is you're getting this rush when you're buying it.
And I don't mean like that joy, like that tickles up the peach shoes, but you get this
(20:00):
rush and you can't get enough in your cart and you can't get enough in your Amazon cart.
And then it's there and it's like, oh yeah, this is cute.
I haven't even worn it one yet and I care less if I return it or not.
There's a whole different feel to it.
Have you experienced that?
Yeah, when you put it on, you're still not feeling that rush and the joy of buying it.
(20:21):
It's gone.
It's gone the second you get it.
Two years ago, yeah, 100% shopping, the worst, by far the worst.
And I'm more, you know, I could see it now because I walk into my bedroom and there's
like 100 boxes of shoes and some of them are...
It's both like shoes.
(20:41):
No, it's not.
I get disgusted looking at it now.
Like I could have saved all that money instead of just swiping away on Nike app on the iPhone.
You know what I mean?
Like it sickens me now and I wish I could go back in time and not buy some of them.
How did you get out of that?
How did you do real...
Did you just recognize it?
(21:02):
Yeah.
Did you make it part of your practices?
So how do you incorporate that?
That's what he and I, like the work that we do, you know, the 12 step practice is a heightened
awareness of self.
That's what I'm seeking.
You know, that's my goal.
I need this heightened awareness of self, how it shows up, how my disease shows up.
Once you have that heightened awareness, you might fall prey to it once or twice.
(21:26):
But by the time you're getting ready to do the third swipe, you're like, no, wait a minute,
I need to think this thing through.
What are you doing?
I mean, like I could go on an app and buy a $500 belt, right?
By the time that belt arrives, you know what I'm saying?
But what ends up happening is like as I'm per...
When I'm surfing, I actually start to feel that awareness of like, what are you doing?
(21:48):
What void are you trying to fill right now?
What's going on?
That's an important question, right?
That's an important question, right?
There's this thing we call pause.
Legit.
I wear my pause button around my neck.
We have this thing called pause, right?
You need to pause.
We're either agitated, doubtful, we're seeking, we're needing, there's something.
Okay, slow down.
Pause a minute because I want to get that.
Yeah, you need to pause and just step back.
(22:09):
So Marguerite is wearing a very simple, beautiful gold chain with a little charm on it that's
got the two lines.
Yeah, it's my pause.
It's the pause.
Sometimes I just grab it and hold on to it just for no reason.
Because you need to consider the decision?
Because I needed just to pause with, most of the time I needed the pause of my thinking.
(22:31):
Not necessarily a decision in that moment, but throughout the day, I'm forever, I fidget.
Thoughts can come through.
I love the saying, I've heard it for a lot before, it's not mine, but like a bird can
land on your head.
You can't do anything if a bird lands on your head, right?
(22:52):
But you can keep it from building a nest.
And so that pause goes, wait a minute, it's this thought.
But we become conditioned to do that with everything.
So like there's set things to be aware of, right?
But until you do the work to have a heightened awareness, you're not even aware it's going
on.
I legit let my subconscious run my life for 40 years.
(23:13):
Wow.
Didn't know my subconscious was running my life because I wasn't aware of it.
I truly believed that the thoughts that I was having that generated the feelings that I
was having, which caused the behaviors that I was displaying were fact.
So thoughts, thoughts lead to feelings.
And then the feeling would lead to the action.
(23:34):
And I really legit thought that that was it.
That was the real deal.
And so that pause makes you go, and do you question, do you go back to the thought?
Do you go back to the feeling or to the behavior?
Do you know what I do when I pause?
I ask God to remove it, to direct my thinking, show me how to be helpful to another human
being because I'm caught up in myself again.
(23:54):
And it's human instinct to be caught up in ourselves.
I am a recovered woman.
And being recovered, right?
I no longer suffer the symptoms of the illness, right?
That's the definition of being recovered.
So the symptoms of my illness are to be so self-focused that I can't see you.
And even while you're talking to me about something really significant in your life,
(24:14):
and I'm staring you right in the eyeball, I'm not hearing a word you're saying, I need
to pause and I need to reposition myself and hear you, right?
And hear what's going on in my head.
And I know today that I didn't have the power in the past to do anything about that.
I lived as if that was who I was, right?
Today I know that that's false.
False evidence appearing real, right?
(24:36):
The fear thing.
But I know that evidence is false.
And I have the opportunity right there in that moment to pause and say, wow.
I'm feeling agitated.
I'm feeling fearful.
I'm feeling...
And so when you're examining those feelings...
It takes a matter of a second now.
And what do you do?
In that moment I pause and I ask God to remove it and direct my thinking.
(24:58):
But if you're seeing I'm feeling fearful.
Yeah, I'm feeling fearful.
Do you ask yourself why?
That's my inventory process.
A part of my tenth step process, tenth and eleventh step process, which I'm going to
keep taking it back to the steps because it showed me how to live.
I didn't know how to live.
I was ill-equipped with that, you know, that ability.
But what I do in that moment when I pause and immediately I ask, I'm like, I'm feeling
(25:22):
angry.
I'm feeling resentful.
Please remove this.
Please direct my thinking to your will, not my will.
Because apparently I'm involved in self-again.
That talk of war has begun.
And direct me and immediately look for someone that I can help.
But a part of that process too is I need to make a phone call.
I need to go sit in an office with somebody else that's in 12-step recovery and say, hey,
can I do a quick tenth step with you and talk to them about, and they're listening.
(25:45):
Slow down, Margaret.
Tell us.
You want to talk about the steps?
No, I want to.
I'm getting amped up.
I'm getting amped up.
That's the difference.
I think it's the Celsius.
The dream.
The margarine.
It might be.
It might be.
But when I get super passionate about self-recovery and I become a completely different human being.
So you go into someone's office and you say, I want to do a tenth step.
What's that like?
(26:06):
What's that like is, you know, if Rahi is somebody that I give spiritual consent to,
which means that I know he works a solid program of recovery, I respect that he is going to
be open and be able to receive what I'm saying and give me constructive feedback and not try
to be my employee or my friend or my coworker.
Like, he's going to give me constructive feedback and he's going to say what I'm hearing is.
(26:30):
And I need you to say to me what I'm hearing is you didn't get your way.
So you're going to say, I have a resentment?
No, I'm going to say.
Or I have...
Sometimes what it sounds like is I am so pissed off.
Do you know what happened to my group today?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he's going to have the ability to sit and just let me get it out.
(26:51):
He's pausing now.
And then he's going to say, can I offer this for your consideration?
Okay.
It's never like this is what you are doing, but can you consider this, you know?
And then just say, this is what I'm hearing.
And as he's saying what I'm hearing, that stuff melts out of my body.
I can physically feel it leaving because he's spot on.
(27:12):
I was afraid of someone's opinion of me.
I was afraid my ego was getting in the way, my pride.
All these things were coming up that I couldn't see in that moment.
He's going to help me to see them and identify them.
And that's what the fellowship offers, right?
(27:33):
That's what...
That's what I would say more.
The fellowship, yes, does offer, but that's what a sponsor and that's what somebody that
has a solid, profound experience with the 12 Steps of Recovery.
Because not everybody in your fellowship, honestly, not everybody in the program has
worked the steps, has had that experience.
And that's okay.
If you're staying sober, that way more power to them.
(27:54):
But for me, it's this is life or death and I have to do that.
How do you examine emotions as they come up, feelings as they come up?
I can't say it any better than Marguerite, but it's like character development for me.
I want to be a better version of myself the next day and be able to adequately handle
similar situations and scenarios in a more positive way.
(28:17):
So I've heard her break this down 10 times better than me, but the character development
and change really happened when I started actively working a step 11 every night doing
that daily reprieve and seeing who I harmed, do I owe anyone an apology and how I was in
(28:37):
a certain situation and I could have been different.
And so when I started doing that and then going over that with my sponsor once a week
of difference, that's when that character development became a whole lot better that
I no longer acted with anger or frustration, able to deal with situations as they come
instead of just acting on impulse because I used to do that a whole lot and you see
(28:59):
that like you know I'm big on character development and you'll see like my time as opposed to
like Marguerite's time where you can see how she breaks everything down.
So it's just it's it's great and like how she said like there's been times where you
know I've had to run something by her to get that you know advice on how to handle a situation
or how to go about it as opposed to you know jumping on my own and knowing I could have
(29:22):
dug myself a nice hole.
Yeah.
And then I can clean it off.
I don't like clean up.
This has been so good.
Thank you both for your time.
This episode was a little different today just to answering some questions and talking,
listening to us just have a fun conversation so a needed conversation.
(29:47):
So thank you for tuning in.
If you or someone you know needs help please reach out 1-833-RCA-ALUMN contact one of our
coordinators.
They really can be your recovery resource and link you to the support that you need to get
help to get help for our friends and family or just to learn more about recovery.
(30:14):
Thank you for listening to the Strength and Recovery podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode please tap the subscribe button and leave us a review.
We love hearing from our listeners and hope to reach more of you out there as we continue
to share these incredible stories of recovery.
The RCA alumni team aims to provide a safe supportive environment for those in the recovery
(30:38):
community regardless of their affiliation with RCA.
We host a full calendar of virtual and in-person meetings seven days a week, 365 days a year
as well as free sober events every month.
To learn more about what we do find us at rcaalumni.com.
(30:59):
Remember if you or a loved one is struggling with addiction pick up the phone and dial 1-833-RCA-ALUMN.
Help is available 24-7.
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