December 22, 2023 • 57 mins
We are back and officially wrapping up season 2 of the Strength in Recovery podcast! Thank you all for your support as we've navigated this year. We've had some amazing conversations surrounding recovery, family, sobriety, and more. We are so happy to share these stories with our listeners, and cannot continue without your support.
To close out 2023 and continue on with our holiday themes, join our friends Jeff, Kevin & Bob as they talk about navigating the holidays in recovery, how our families can help keep us honest, and give us the resources they still tap into as they work through their recovery.
Join us on strengthinrecovery.com or wherever you get your podcasts!
*The views and opinions expressed by the guests of this podcast should not be considered medical or treatment advice. Need treatment? Call 1-833-RCAALUM today. Looking for support? Visit www.rcaalumni.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello listeners, welcome to the Strength and Recovery podcast sponsored by Recovery Centers
(00:23):
of America.
I'm Jay Rodenbush, director of alumni engagement for RCA and host of this podcast.
We're so excited to be joined today by an amazing group of individuals and we're very
privileged to have them with us.
And we just wanted to talk about the holidays and recovery and such an important topic,
(00:43):
such an amazing time of year, but also can be maybe a pain point, can I say that Jeff?
I agree.
I just wanted to talk for those, especially in early recovery.
So just wanted to talk that through and so I wanted them to introduce themselves.
So Jeff, let's start us out here.
Hi guys, I'm Jeff Simone.
(01:03):
I work in the IT department here at RCA.
I got sober on November 12, 2016.
So I just celebrated seven years last month.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
So this is my eighth holiday season and yeah, I think it's a great topic.
I think there's going to be a lot of good discussion and then there's certainly something
that a lot of people probably want to hear about.
(01:25):
So thanks for inviting me.
So my name is Kevin Congden.
Hello everyone.
I work here at the admissions department for recovery centers of America.
Also in recovery, my clean date is May 7, 2019.
So we're coming up on our fifth holiday season and I can definitely relate to this topic
(01:46):
for sure.
Hello everyone, my name is Bob Gibson.
I'm one of the alumni coordinators at recovery centers of America.
I've been in recovery for a little over five years and I'm really happy to be here to have
this conversation.
Thanks so much for joining us and we'll just launch into why do you think the holidays
(02:10):
are such a trigger?
I think that there's just a lot of emotion around it in general.
Stressors tend to be one of the more highly correlated things with trouble in recovery
and there's no shortage of stressors around the holidays, whether it's financial, whether
(02:34):
it's work, whether it's just family.
Family is triggering.
It's like it doesn't, and I say this a lot, it doesn't matter if there's drugs or alcohol
at home necessarily.
That people think, oh, I have a good family, my family's not going to, it's like there's
stuff there.
I mean, I have a great family, I have a wonderful family, but the holidays were hard.
(02:55):
They were hard despite that.
It's like you don't have to be, my family doesn't have to be offering me drugs for that
to be a difficult situation and it was.
I know for me personally, and one of the first things that I start saying here, a lot of
times, is just that you can say no to as many of these events or as many of these things
(03:19):
as possible.
It's like a lot of people give themselves really into, oh, what do I say to this one?
What do I, okay, I have to go to this holiday party, they're going to be drinking there.
It's like, okay, there's plenty of situations where you're going to be in a not so great
scenario, but you can say no to a lot.
(03:39):
This is about saving your ass, not your face.
First and foremost, right?
I tell a lot of people, you might live 50 more years.
You'll have plenty of time to go to all these things for the holiday season to be magical
for you to feel like you're having a great experience.
If you say no, nobody's going to hold that against you.
(03:59):
Practicing the no.
No one's going to be able to say, I can't make it.
Remember back in 2023 when you didn't show up to that, but if you get drunk and you flip
the table and you punch this guy in the face, they're going to remember that.
And that your no is enough, I think can be, I mean, I think that's with setting any boundary,
not thinking, oh, I have to have 500 excuses, just saying, oh, I'm sorry, I can't make it.
(04:24):
And that that is sufficient.
Right.
I mean, I can't tell you how many things I said no to in the beginning.
And there are little tricks that you can do.
I mean, it's like that's over on November 12th, okay, 2016.
So that was a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving.
And I was around here, you know, so prior to that I had been introduced to recovery.
(04:46):
I was actually court ordered in May of 2013.
All right.
And I was living in Southern California.
And that was my first introduction.
And Southern California has some really good recovery.
I'm blessed actually that I was introduced to the group of guys that I was introduced
to.
Now it didn't stick.
I wasn't quite ready at that point, but that whole experience allowed me that once I did
(05:12):
get sober in the Philadelphia area, I was able to plug in really quick.
So we were taking on commitments.
We would just go down to Mercy Hospital and Belmont Hospital and Friends Hospital.
We had a lot of these things going.
So the one that was on Thursday night and Thursday night happened to be Thanksgiving.
(05:34):
And I kept it, right?
So I went to Thanksgiving.
We did that for a couple of hours with family.
I mean, I was a couple of weeks sober at this point.
And it was really, really bad.
You know, like long withdrawals coming off of, you know, like dependencies on a lot of
different things, opiates, amphetamines, muscle relaxers, benzoons.
So it was not good.
(05:54):
But I was there.
I kind of showed my face, you know, and then I left.
I left and we drove down to Friends Hospital, right?
So I wouldn't say that that was an excuse, you know, to leave, but I didn't, but I let
it work for me, right?
You know, I know somebody was saying, oh, you know, you can just, you can skip it, right?
It's like, it's just one, we can get somebody to cover that for you.
(06:15):
But I remember thinking like, no, I kind of want to use this, right?
Because it's like, this left me, I can show up to my family.
We had dinner.
It was very nice.
And by the time any kind of alcohol or really anything else was going to be coming out,
I was out.
So that was, I guess, one of the things that I was able to use early on that seemed to
help.
(06:36):
Kevin, or your thoughts?
Yeah, for sure.
So I think Jeff had a couple of good points.
You know, early in recovery, I remember, you know, the fear of showing up to family parties
when knowing that there'd be family members there drinking.
I think, you know, everyone in my family, for the most part, I'm the only one in recovery.
I have, you know, 18 total cousins, big family.
(06:58):
And we really do cherish the holiday time.
Like, I enjoy this time of year for sure.
But I recall being early in, you know, sobriety and just having that overwhelming, like, nervous
feeling.
Even like, I got clean in May.
So I remember going down the beach that year with the family and people were going down
to the beach with pours.
And, you know, I just had to learn how to, like, set healthy boundaries, whether that
(07:21):
was like, listen, I'm just going to come for an hour or two.
So I felt the need that, you know, it was time to go, you know, once people started
getting a little out of hand and whatnot.
So that was important for me for sure.
You know, having like a...
How do you recognize that moment?
Like, yeah, it's time for me to go and listen to it, right?
Like it's one thing to recognize it and then act on it.
(07:42):
Yeah, for me, and I'll be honest, like, this is something I would, you know, talk in depth
with my sponsor about back then.
And I remember he's like, listen, the Irish goodbye is okay.
You know, if you're at that point where you're just starting to feel uncomfortable, you don't
need to explain yourself to anyone.
No one's going to probably, you know, remember the next day that you left early or you didn't
say goodbye.
You're going to see them probably the next day at the next family party.
(08:05):
So just being able to be in tune with like when it was time.
And another key point was I actually, I remember my first year in recovery for those events,
like I actually brought someone along with me from like my support group that was also
in recovery.
So I had someone there that we had like the common thing going on and we could kind of
lean on each other.
(08:25):
Like, you know, if I was feeling uncomfortable, it was time to go.
I just, we left.
Just slip out.
Yeah.
And then another, like kind of a hot topic now with, you know, four and a half years clean
and Jeff touch on this is like learning how to have like a healthy balance of all the commitments
and obligations because, you know, having all this, you know, clean time now and like
(08:50):
wanting to be invited like family members are now wanting me to be around and everyone's
inviting you to all these events, whether it's Pollyanna stuff work events.
You know, my girlfriend lives in Newark Jersey.
So we have to travel a lot for, for some of these events and it's learning how to say
no has been a difficult thing for me.
My sister actually just gave birth to my first and only nephew.
(09:13):
This is my first experience being, you know, an uncle in recovery.
I have no children myself.
So I'm super excited about this.
And there's all these other events that have been planned for months now where I want to
spend a lot of my time in the next few weeks, you know, going over to her house.
So, you know, something me and my sponsor were talking about a third meeting last night,
like just learning how to say no, it's okay.
(09:37):
And not in allowing yourself the permission to not get over scheduled.
Exactly.
And you know, for me, and this is for myself, I was a big people pleaser.
So saying no was a difficult for me and always wanting to show up.
My mom, you know, like I said, family is super important to us.
And last weekend she texted me, hey, we have our big family Pollyanna party next Saturday.
(09:59):
And I said, I got to look at the schedule.
I got to talk through some things and I got to get back to you.
And you know, that's probably not something my mom wanted to hear because she, you know,
she wrote back, well, what's good, why not?
Why would you not be there?
This is our family party, right?
But I also have to keep like my recovery in the forefront too right now.
Like I had a commitment to speak at a meeting last night.
(10:19):
These are also events after my 50 hour work week, right?
That I have to find time to schedule and do.
So I think for me, it's just learning how to navigate that balance because like I said,
like the more that your, you know, your life becomes fuller and you're staying clean, like
the more opportunities that are presented, the more doors are opened and the more relationships
(10:42):
you have, your network gets so big between recovery folks, work folks, family folks, friends
folks that it's, it becomes a very difficult balance and act and that's been my experience.
Bob, I think this really speaks to you.
I mean, I see you as someone who lives a really disciplined life with your schedule.
And can you talk a little bit about that and how that's, how that's interrelated to the
(11:06):
holiday stuff?
Sure.
Yeah.
So I guess the thing that I've been thinking about while I was sitting here.
So the way that when, when I was newer in recovery, absolutely kind of agree with like
what Jeff was saying, like I just didn't go to things.
If I wasn't comfortable in my mind, it just like wasn't worth risking my recovery.
And it's like, alcoholics and addicts, like generally speaking, we're like an incredibly
(11:27):
self centered group of people.
And we think that like everyone's going to be like super concerned with it, where we
are.
And if we left early and why we weren't there, but the reality is like most of the time, like
we're thinking about ourselves way more than anybody else is.
So like these guys alluded to the odds are like a year or two.
Later after that event, nobody's going to even remember that I was not there.
The other thing is far as like just remaining disciplined in that routine.
(11:48):
So for example, my on Christmas this year, my home group is on Christmas.
They're not going to not have the meeting.
And my family also like wants to have me because like these guys also mentioned like my family
wants me around.
They like being around me today, which wasn't like always the case.
But I had a conversation with them earlier this week and I'm going to go there.
(12:11):
I'm going to have some food with them and I'm going to leave a little bit early to go
to my home group.
So like in reality, it's just another day.
Like just because it's a holiday doesn't mean that I'm not going to do the things I'm supposed
to do to stay sober.
I'm still going to pray.
I'm still going to talk to people on the phone.
If it's my home group, especially I'm still going to go to a meeting regardless.
So just treating it like any other day.
And then the other last thing I want to throw out.
(12:33):
So another thing, this isn't my experience, but it might be some other people's.
There's going to be a lot of people in early recovery that might not have anywhere to go
during the holidays.
They might not be welcome with their family or anywhere else because of some of the harms
that we cause when we're out there using.
So just putting it out, if you get yourself involved in like really any recovery fellowship
(12:53):
in existence, they're normally doing things all day on the holidays.
Normally 24 hours straight.
They're having meetings every hour.
There's food.
So if you don't have anywhere to go, I would just like try Google and your recovery fellowship
of choice, see where there's meetings and they're probably doing stuff on the holidays.
So have somewhere to go.
That's awesome.
And several of you in service, like as a part of, you know, having commitments to speak
(13:17):
or has that been part of?
Yeah.
And I actually, my first year sober, I was just sitting there thinking, I mean, that's,
I mean, that was a God moment, right?
Because I was still sick, you know, still actively.
I've been to treatment this past time.
(13:38):
I mean, I kind of did it in more of like an outpatient setting.
I mean, it was, I don't, I don't recommend that, right?
But I was, I mean, I was sick.
This meeting was at six o'clock in the morning, about 45 minutes from my house.
Okay.
Which means that some guy picked me up.
I had known him for a couple of weeks now.
Okay.
He, he was at my house, my apartment at the time, at like five something in the morning.
(14:02):
And I was there.
I mean, it'll be hard for me to do that today, right?
It's hard for me to get up and be, you know, it's cold, it's dark.
I was, I was whatever, 14, 17 days still actively sick.
And I did that, you know, that was just when we talked about those little, just, just,
just those little windows.
I truly believe we get these, these windows of opportunity, you know, us, the addicted
(14:26):
population, you know, get these little windows.
And it's like, they, you don't know how long their windows going to open and the wind
and slam shut.
You don't know if it's ever going to open again.
You know, it's, it's like that, that day, whatever that day was, November 20 something,
you know, 2016 when I had about 14 days, I was willing enough to, I don't even know
(14:47):
if I slept, I wasn't sleeping very much, but I was up and I was dressed enough to walk
outside cold, you know, put a button, I was freezing, shivering and I walked out there
and I got in and I sat in that room and it was, it was stuff like that that really helped,
you know, and, you know, like Bob was saying, nowadays it's like, if that is a commitment
(15:09):
and if that commitment is, is going on on a certain day, it doesn't really matter what
the date is, right?
It's like, if it's, you know, if, if, if you're hosting for that month and it's a Friday and
that Friday happens to be December, I don't know, 26 and there's going to be, it's like,
you're going to that first, you know, and I think stuff like that's important.
(15:30):
So you don't really have to run it through the filter of like, should I be doing this?
It's kind of like, this is what I do, you know, so I am doing this.
And then if somebody asks you something else, you say, you know, maybe we can get together
some other time.
I, you know, I'm sharing a meeting this day or, or I'm speaking this day.
We used to actually intentionally put ourselves on, you know, like around the holidays because,
(15:52):
you know, again, it's like now, now I do enjoy it.
I have a seven year old son and a five year old daughter.
You know, they say, don't make any major decisions your first year.
I had a baby.
How did that work out for you?
Well, actually I had the baby first and then I say, again, I don't recommend that.
(16:13):
You know, I don't recommend having a baby at home when you're, when you're trying to,
but that's, that's, that's the way that it was.
And I actually love the fact that he's, you know, I have seven years.
He has seven years.
And he understands it now, you know, that he has, I mean, not fully obviously, but,
but he asks questions.
You know, the big picture of him holding my seven year chip, a big smile on his face,
(16:33):
that he knows stuff, you know, that he knows, like when he was sick, daddy was, when he
was born, daddy was sick, you know, that he knows, he knows that there was a time where
I, where I, you know, couldn't, couldn't, couldn't stop using drugs and, and he, you
know, kind of like understands just, just, just, just the ideas of like wanting to stop
(16:54):
and, and he can't, you know, he's, he's kind of old enough now just to be able to understand
some of that stuff.
But, you know, but those first couple of holidays, it's like, I had that thought in my head very,
very clean.
You know, it's so clear in my head of just, all right, you know, you're going to live 50
more years.
You know, that 50 years was always in my head.
You're going to live 50 more years.
All right.
This, right now, this is just like a sacrifice, you know, for the greater good.
(17:18):
Okay.
If you want the next 49 to be decent, to be, for you to be alive and actually, you know,
potentially enjoying these, you got to get this first one right.
And I say that all the time.
I mean, the first year it's like, the expectation is be sober, you know, survive in advance.
(17:39):
It's like nothing else, not, not be sober and have a magical Christmas.
You know, you know, nothing else to feel magical.
The pressure, I think that we put on ourselves that these days need to be magical or they
need to be special, you know, and, and they can be right.
But just how do you remove the pressure?
(17:59):
You have thoughts on that Kevin?
Well, you know, I was, I was thinking about that.
And, you know, you're talking about being in service during the holiday season.
For me, right, like my way of giving back is, is trying to be in service to not only
just like members of my fellowship, whether it's, you know, sponsors or, you know, other
(18:23):
people that are in my support group, but like giving back to my loved ones, because I think
back to the times where, and I, you know, I have to be transparent.
I've missed many of holidays in jails and institutions for, for a very long time.
You know, there's a point in time where I was incarcerated for nine months and, you
know, I remember my sister was graduating in high school.
(18:45):
I was sending like letters home.
No one was returning my letters.
No one was answering my phone calls.
Nobody was, you know, sending money up for me.
And I was just in a very miserable and lonely place, but selfishly in that moment, like
it was about me, me, me.
And you know, with some time clean now, like you look back on those moments and just seeing
how like excited my family is to have me be a part of now and how much they want me around,
(19:11):
thinking back like, you know, all the family pictures, right?
Like when I walk in my grandmother's house and I see all the holiday family pictures
and there's everyone in the family, all the cousins, and I'm not in those pictures.
And yes, it hurts me, but I got to think about like in my mother and those moments,
like how upset my mom was that like her only son was not there to like participate and
(19:32):
be a part of those life experiences, you know?
So nowadays, like for me, I try to like give back, like being in service.
Part of this is like giving back to those people that have, you know, been there for
me too.
You know, so I try to take that into account, right?
When I'm scheduling all those events, like it's just important for me to be there, participate
(19:57):
and, you know, just give back to those loved ones that are excited to have me there.
And how do you go about, I think a lot of families listen in and a lot of people are
trying to navigate the family dynamic and maybe it's the first time that you're invited
back or, and families, they're not sure like, do they serve alcohol?
(20:24):
Do they not?
Like everybody's kind of on eggshells, right?
How do you have those conversations and say, hey mom, here's what I need or here's what
you could, or talk us through that?
Anyone's welcome.
It's like, we don't have to go in a circle.
I'll slide in.
Sounds good.
This is Bob.
(20:45):
Hi everyone, it's Bob again.
So I'll just like once again, I can only really speak on my own experience with this concept.
So when I was even like relatively early on in recovery, I was kind of coached up by people
who had been around longer than me.
And the idea is not to, you know, try to mold the world to fit me.
(21:07):
It's trying to kind of get myself to a place where I can fit into it regardless of like
what's going on around me, finding a way to like be okay and see if it's stable within
that.
So for me, I personally didn't want people to act differently around me.
I don't want to go to a Thanksgiving or Christmas and have everybody walking on eggshells and
think that they can't have a drink or two if they want.
(21:30):
The people that are in my family are, you know, quote unquote normal drinkers.
So I don't want them to feel like they have to change their behavior on account of me.
But I will say they did, they would offer, which you know, was appreciated and they would,
they checked to see if I was comfortable, which once again, I appreciated.
And what does that sound like?
(21:52):
What is checking to see if you're comfortable?
I think really practically like as a mom or dealing with a sister, loved one, how do
I talk to my brother who's coming in the door?
So now they, you know, I've been sober a little while, so they're aware that like it's not
really something that's bothersome for me.
(22:13):
But in the beginning, they would straight up just ask.
They would just be like, Hey, does it make you uncomfortable that I'm drinking this?
And I would, you know, tell them the truth.
But like really once again, like this is just my, my perspective.
People don't have to use it.
I'm, you know, I can't like expect like the world to change and ebb and flow for me.
I got to find a way to be okay with it.
(22:33):
And it goes back to like, if I don't feel comfortable going somewhere, I'm not going.
And when it's time to leave, it's time to leave.
Like these guys talked about the Irish exit.
I was notorious for that when I was drunk.
I do it sober.
I did it like very recently.
Don't tell anybody.
But I was at two weddings, like pretty recently.
I know it's not a holiday, but it's like a similar event.
There's people at Jovial, they're celebrating.
(22:54):
And I always kind of have my, my thing where there is a turn and it happens at like every
event that I'm at where people are drinking, where like it goes from where people are just
like kind of feeling a little good and being a little silly to now they're drunk.
Now they're like saying the same thing to me over and over again.
And once that starts to happen, that's for me, that's my, my signal to go.
(23:16):
I leave like when that change happens.
And like you can just watch a room and like you can see it happen.
Most people hit that point like kind of at the same time.
And then like I don't belong there anymore.
That's kind of like my mindset.
And if you're going to an event with someone who's newly sober and what would your advice
be for that person who's accompanying someone, maybe a spouse or like a family member?
(23:42):
They give on the family member going with my spouse who is newly in recovery.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so first I like, I like what, what you know, Bob was just saying just about, you
know, like the indications of when you should leave.
You know, I said, you know, when it gets like that and I agree with that, especially in the
beginning, you know, you need those little, I mean, I will say now, like I, I don't, I
(24:07):
don't stay long, not because I think that it's a risky, just because like it's boring.
Right.
It's like, I don't, I have no business.
My time is valuable.
Right.
I have to get there.
Yeah.
My time is valuable.
But each hour that I am intentional with, I'm only going to be places that I want to
be or that I feel that I, you know, that I want to partake in something.
So it's like, if everybody, once in a while there will be exceptions.
(24:30):
Okay.
So just maybe two weeks ago, my wife had a, there was a surprise birthday party for her,
okay.
That her friends threw for her.
So I stayed there a little bit longer in terms of through the drinking stuff, but it's a very
rarely does that happen.
You know, my wife is, yeah, she's not in recovery.
Yes.
She was just maybe would, would drink, I mean, a quote unquote normally, right?
(24:55):
Just to kind of whatever, maybe regular people drink.
I don't even know what that looks like, but I will tell you that over the last seven years,
I don't think we've had alcohol in the house.
I mean, possibly ever.
Right.
There's some people, well, what if I have friends come over and I got it to let them
bring it.
Right.
(25:15):
Like they're, I can't, even if we hosted a party, let them bring it.
You know, if you don't, if you feel so uncomfortable showing up where there's not, you know, not
alcohol, then go somewhere else.
Right.
It's like that's, so that is how you could potentially support somebody if you don't
have a problem.
I've also said to people, you know, they say, well, you know, I, my wife knows that I'm
(25:36):
an alcoholic and I don't need, but she likes to drink once in a while.
So, you know, she wants to keep it in the house.
And you know, sometimes I'll say things like, I mean, they get, if she knows that if you
drink your entire household starts to fall apart and she is just going to bring it in
anyway, despite that, you know, maybe she's got something to look at.
(25:57):
I don't know.
Possibly.
Right.
So I know that my situation is a little bit different because it's more, I'm just more
black and white with, with, with some of that kind of stuff.
It's a choice you've made as a family.
Yeah.
They, as a family, this is just not.
Family disease.
Yeah.
Family recovery.
You might find Gatorade in the fridge.
You're not going to find whiskey.
You're not going to find beer.
(26:18):
I think, and this, this kind of all ties back to why it's so important to have, you know,
be involved in some sort of 12 step fellowship or have, you know, have that sober support
network because no one can really relate to the way we think, the way we feel in these
situations other than people who have struggled with the same problem that we struggle with,
(26:38):
who have experienced the same thing that we have experienced with.
So everything that I've learned in life, like to this point with, you know, almost five
years clean at this point has come from someone in recovery.
Like any adulting type stuff, like in the midst of, you know, house buying process and
my old, my old sponsor was the one who helped me build my credit.
(27:00):
You know, going to these family events during the holiday season, it's not, I'm not going
to go ask my 84 year old grandmother, like, Hey, what are your thoughts on like, if I'm
feeling uncomfortable because uncle Johnny's drinking this weekend, right?
Like she's not going to have the answer for me that I'm looking for that's probably going
to help me, you know, so this all ties back to why it's so important to have those people
(27:21):
in your life, be it a sponsor, you know, be it other members of your fellowship that have
experienced these same issues because they are the ones who can relate to this.
And so for me, like all of those uncomfortable conversations and how to navigate those relationships,
whether it be with a significant other who still drains her, like those ideas are always
bounced off of someone that's in my direct circle prior to that.
(27:45):
I think that's amazing advice.
And I, you know, we work with alums and often new to recovery.
I haven't got a sponsor yet.
I haven't got a sponsor yet.
How critical is going into the holidays, getting a sponsor?
Yeah.
I mean, it's for me, it's, it's, it's the, it's basically the key to my, to my whole
recovery process.
(28:05):
You know, I grew up, my father, you know, it wasn't around for a majority of my life
isn't to this point.
I have a difficult time like opening up and getting vulnerable with men, like, and especially
in a group setting, like showing up to meetings.
It wasn't something I was great at, right?
Like putting my hand up, participating and getting actually honest on the floor about
what's actually going on.
(28:26):
And like through that sponsorship relationship that I've been able to like overcome that
and like slowly open up about all types of issues, whether it's, you know, and I, you
know, I'm not one to put my hand up in a meeting and put all of my business on the
floor when it comes to like, it'll be like sexual related, whatever it is, those things
that maybe you're uncomfortable with putting on the floor, which, you know, for me, that's
just not something I do, but I better sure have a relationship with someone, be it my
(28:49):
sponsor that I can open up and discuss those topics with.
And so like those things don't keep me sick.
So for me, like the sponsor piece is it's really the meat and potatoes.
It's just someone who's going to walk you through the steps, someone that you're going
to build a relationship with and those, you know, to guide you through the step process
and through this whole process altogether.
I would say too, like if you, if you believe that addiction is a disease, okay, if you
(29:14):
accept that and if you agree with the concept of the disease centers in our mind, not our
body, well, then that is suggesting that there's, that our thinking is not right, at least
in the beginning, at least in the beginning, right?
I think I'm not going to put a time limit on it, but I'll say at least in the beginning,
if that is true, then you can't use that same thinking to figure out what you should be
(29:37):
doing your first sober holidays, for example, you know, there's like a line in the book
that says something to the effect of, if we are on firm spiritual ground, we can go anywhere,
you know, quote unquote normal men go.
It's like, I remember reading that and saying to my sponsor after a couple of months, you
know, I think I'm on firm spiritual, right, he's like, I'll, I'll let you know when you're
(29:59):
on firm spiritual ground, right?
So it's like, I think at this point, I could probably say with some certainty, you know,
I said, the earlier I feel like my spirituality is a little bit off right now, right?
It's like, I think that I, that I can kind of, you know, navigate that feeling myself.
When you have a couple of months sober, you can't, right?
It's like, you don't, you just don't know that you haven't been sober long enough to
(30:21):
know what stable feels like.
And the brain is healing.
You just don't know what that is, right?
So you might not have been stable for 15 years in terms of, of, of really emotional stability.
So how are you going to use that same brain now at six weeks sober, going into your first
Christmas to really be able to determine I should go here, I shouldn't go here.
So like Kevin was saying, it's like, you need other people, you know, who you, you know,
(30:46):
they trust and respect.
And that's the biggest thing.
If you are in somebody with active addiction and you don't trust and respect this person,
you're not going to follow what they say anyway.
And it can be really scary.
Somebody can say, well, I have a great supportive family.
I can just talk to my wife about this.
I can talk to my husband about this.
However, that can be really scary for them to hear, well, I'm feeling tempted at this
(31:10):
moment or I'm so, I mean, is that sponsor give you kind of a safe space to share things
that maybe the supportive family should or shouldn't be involved in?
How does that work?
Cause you're supposed to be open with your spouse who wants to take that one?
Everybody's pointing at each other.
Go for it.
Yeah.
(31:31):
So that's interesting that you brought that up, Jay.
It's actually like a really good point.
It's something that I talk about with alums all the time before they leave treatment.
And it's just like a suggestion that I had received from others previously, which is
everything I know about everything recovery related and honestly, like likewise at this
point is things that I just heard other people say or that I was taught and nothing is like
original for me at all.
But like the one thing I explained to patients all the time, like if I'm thinking about,
(31:57):
let's say using heroin, which like occasionally I have thoughts.
I no longer have an obsession.
I don't go do it, which is like the difference, but like the thought comes sometimes.
And if I were to have that thought and then call my mother and just say, Hey, mom, how's
it going?
Just thinking about using heroin.
Just thought I wanted to let you know.
(32:17):
My mom.
Oh my God.
She doesn't need that.
She's probably not going to sleep for like a month.
If I say that to her with like the amount of trauma that I've put her through.
But like if I say that to somebody else in recovery, they're probably not even going
to blink.
I have people that I've worked with over the years that will reach out to me when they're
thinking about using.
And it's not that like I don't care.
(32:39):
It's not that I'm empathetic, but like I'm so used to that type of event happening.
And I've been around long enough that I know that just because they're thinking about it
doesn't mean that they're going to do it, that it's not going to rock my world.
It's not going to like affect my sleep.
I'm not going to become overly emotional afterwards.
But like somebody who's not in recovery, their reaction might not be good.
It might freak them out.
(33:00):
So better to just like, doesn't necessarily have to be a sponsor.
But like somebody else in recovery that gets it, that knows that like, Hey, I thought this
necessarily mean like there's going to be an action afterwards.
And understanding your mom's relationship and her role in your life is different than
the role that a sponsor, someone you're allowing a therapist is going to be able to speak into
your life in a different way and handle that responsibility.
(33:22):
There's a lot of responsibility associated with a statement like that, right?
Yeah.
I mean, there's good chapters in the big book, you know, to wives, the family afterwards.
And it kind of addresses some of these exact things, right?
And there's a family dynamics are huge.
What I love about those chapters actually is that, I mean, just think about like how
(33:44):
much the world has changed right in the last 90, whatever year since the big book was published
in 1939.
But yet you could read these chapters about just, you know, some, some little group in
Akron, Ohio that was meeting 90 years ago and the stuff still applies, right?
So that's why you can see that.
Principles.
Okay.
These are just, yeah, these are just kind of general, the human nature of addiction
(34:07):
as we know it is sort of the same, right?
They're going to be same kind of ideas.
And yeah, I do think that you need to be leaning on other people that you can identify have
had your same issue, you know, your same problem.
Because again, I mean, it's not, you know, if, if you were with your spouse before and
you were using and now you're not, yeah, it's like, if, if this spouse or a mother or anybody
(34:31):
else for as if their love was able to save you and cure you, right?
So we wouldn't be having this problem, you know, you know, so we, we are loved people,
you know, people that we have people that are in our lives.
You know, it's like, there's, there's something else going on here.
Part of that, yeah, sponsorship thing is, you know, it's a, you need to be surrounded
(34:53):
by people.
Also, just the fact that by nature, the family can't possibly know all the, the alcohol was
not my, my drug of choice.
Okay.
So it's like, why should alcohol even be like a thing for my family?
You know, why should they even think, think twice about alcohol?
(35:14):
You know, it's like, that's not just like intuitive for family members.
You know, if you're, yeah, I mean, if your thing is opiates and that was what drove you
into, you know, that's what got you in trouble with the law.
That's what, you know, that's what got you in jail.
That's what made you lose your job.
All like all that kind of stuff.
And these people have seen you drinking casually, at least right from the time that you were
younger.
(35:35):
It's like, why shouldn't you be able to do that now?
And it's like, we can't possibly expect that family is going to understand because a lot
of this stuff is sort of beyond, you know, beyond just, just, just common knowledge,
even the people that have their ear to the grindstone and that, you know, maybe show
up to some stuff.
I mean, some, some family members are more, you know, more plugged in with their own recoveries
(35:55):
and now and on, you know, programs, for example.
And that helps by the way.
I mean, I, I encourage family all the time to do that, right?
Because you're not going to be able to, you know, think they're just like, we're not able
to think our way out of it.
The family is not going to be able to think their way into, into saving you either.
And that stuff's important.
(36:18):
Talk a little bit about, or maybe to the family, the individual inactive addiction and going
into the holidays.
Again, it just adds a layer of stress.
What are some advice, what's some advice that you would give to families whose loved one
(36:40):
is an active addiction?
Yeah, I can kind of elaborate on that one.
You know, obviously this is something that I deal with on a day in and day out basis
here at work, but just from my experience.
You were helping families who they're looking to get their loved one in treatment, right?
Sure.
And people, families call in every day.
(37:02):
I have my son, cousin, brother, girlfriend that's struggling.
I have no idea what to do, no idea how to help.
And it's difficult.
I've had personal experience with this as well with, you know, sponsors, friends, family.
But most importantly, like from my experience, right?
And I'm just thinking back to this, like I think setting healthy boundaries is like the
(37:23):
best suggestion that I can honestly give to someone in that situation.
You know, for me, it was like so many times, my, like my grandmother will call it, right?
Like enable me to just continue to show up at the house, like left treatment AMA had
a place to go back and knock on the door the next morning, right?
Like if I needed to finesse my way in to get money again, like it was there.
(37:47):
And like, so I think for me that the best recommendation is you just have to learn how
to put your foot down and set healthy boundaries.
It's difficult to do because I know we like love these people unconditionally.
But for me, for this addict, alcohol, like until the consequences were great enough.
And you know, I had burnt those bridges and had nowhere else to turn.
(38:09):
And you know, I have like emotional and physical scars, right?
From my using and for me, it was like till the consequences got great enough.
I wasn't, I just wasn't ready.
You know, doors were still open, places to sleep, people to call, money to get.
So I just, I just think that the healthy boundary pieces is the most important one.
(38:31):
And I know that that's easier said than done sometimes, whether it's a, you know,
just going back to just exercising the right to say no, yeah, knowing that that is not
necessarily a bad thing or something that's going to increase the problem.
And Jeff talked about that, those nor non and Al-Nan programs that loved ones and families
(38:52):
can go to.
I remember for me, someone recommended that for my grandmother and my mom.
And I remember they went there and they were blown away.
They were so upset leaving there because people told them the truth.
Like, you know, because sometimes it's not just me.
That's the problem is the addict and alcohol.
Like if we're someone that's enabling that behavior.
And sometimes, you know, there's, there's a lot of psychology and a lot of different
(39:15):
situations, but sometimes the codependency piece is another factor, right?
Like we're just scared to let them go cause we're, we're scared to be lonely too.
My grandma maybe didn't want to sit through the holidays by herself because she wanted
me in that house, whether I was using or not.
So it's just a different dynamic to look at.
But those, those nor non and Al-Nan meetings, they, they give very good like insight and
perspective.
(39:36):
It's literally just other moms and dads who have been through this before, whether, whether
their son or daughters actively using, they could be in that group cause their son and
daughter has significant amounts of clean time or they could be in that group.
Their, their loved one passed away from this disease.
So I would, I would recommend that for any family members to kind of go there and get
the information for sure.
And that is it.
(39:56):
That is a 12 step fellowship for loved ones, not necessarily struggling with addiction,
but a support room for you to go and talk to.
So that would be my recommendation.
I just wanted to slide in on another idea.
So the one thing I would throw out too, so if you, if you are the loved one of somebody
who's in active addiction and they, you get like that window.
(40:17):
So Jeff alluded to it earlier, like there's these like small little like windows of opportunity
where like an, you know, an alcoholic or an addict might have like a moment of clarity.
And it's normally like very brief where they might like kind of see their life for what
it is for a moment.
We're like very delusional when we're using, but sometimes we have these moments and if
they have one of those moments and they're talking about wanting to get treatment, highly
(40:39):
suggest not telling them like, oh, well, like, why don't you go after the holiday?
Because they might lose that willingness to go get help in 10 minutes, let alone like
four days, five days.
So if somebody's willing to go, I would strongly advise not trying to make them wait to go
through a holiday first.
And secondly, if they are in treatment and there's a holiday coming up, not pulling them
(41:04):
out to make it to the holiday, like let them finish their course of treatment.
My situation, like the first time I went to a detox was right before Thanksgiving.
And I kind of weaponized that to get out of there before I should have.
I went in there, I stayed for five days and then, you know, I appealed to my mother that
(41:25):
I can't miss Thanksgiving.
So you have to, you know, you have to let me come home.
I can't possibly be in here for Thanksgiving.
So I came home way, way sooner than I was supposed to and I didn't stay sober.
But once again, like it was, it was talked about going to those programs for the loved
ones of the alcoholic or addict.
If my mother had been going to one of those, she would have known better.
(41:45):
She would have known that she shouldn't have pulled me out of there.
So just putting that out as well.
And talk a little bit about the importance.
I think so many times people think, well, I got the substance or the alcohol, I got
the, that out of my body.
So I'm good, right?
I detoxed.
I went to a program for seven to 10 days.
(42:07):
The drug is out of my system.
So I'm okay now.
And I can go home.
Why is, why is staying in treatment?
Why is, why is that so important?
Do you want to take that, Jeff?
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
So I will say that the first time most, there are a lot of folks who will end up in some
(42:31):
type of treatment multiple times, that's common.
I will say that the majority of people that myself included prior to that first time getting
in that you really do think that the problem is the drugs, you know, because the, why wouldn't
you?
Most of your problems seem to be caused by the drugs.
You know, you're spending all your money on the drugs.
(42:52):
The cops are on your case because of the drugs, right?
It's like, they're not on you because you're thinking goofy, you know, they're on you
because you're doing this because of the drugs.
So that was what I thought that the problem was.
And for many, many years, you know, and I really, I became obsessed with this idea.
I remember having this, this very, very clear picture.
Like if you could just put me in some kind of like medically induced coma, okay?
(43:15):
Because I was, I mean, I was chemically dependent, you know, strung out on opiates, okay?
Try to stop.
I couldn't, I got sick.
And I was working, right?
So just the whole, I can't leave, I can't take time off from work.
What are they going to do without me?
It turns out they fired me and they were fine.
This is one of the biggest companies.
They're doing fine.
Their stocks prices are still okay, despite the fact that I'm not with the company.
(43:35):
But I remember thinking like, if I could just be in this, you know, one year, right?
Put me, you know, feed me through a tube and just, and I can wake up after a year and I'm
totally cleaned out like I was when I was like 15 and I could just walk out and be totally
fine.
And I didn't get brought into this treatment, you know, against my will at the time, but
sometimes it has to be like that.
And I finished the detox and I was actually court ordered to do three months, which is
(43:57):
still not happy about that decision.
But yeah, I told my first sponsor, this is cruel and unusual punishment.
He said, listening to you is cruel and unusual punishment.
I said, three months, go.
Sounds like a good sponsor.
Anyway, so yes, I did the, you know, three months and I came out and I was still, I mean,
I was as sober as I am right now physically, you know, I was completely cleaned out of
(44:18):
everything, you know, nothing stronger than caffeine in my body for three months.
And I came out and I mean, I ended up relapsing after just a couple of days really.
But then after that first time, you know, that's when I realized that there's more going
on than just, you know what I mean?
Because it's like when you, when you start using after having not used for a couple of
hours and you're sick, well, you can say that's because of the drug, you know, the whatever
(44:41):
you want to call it, you know, the phenomenon of craving and all the stuff that comes on
when the drugs are still flowing through your system.
But what happens when you have months and months of absence from the stuff and then you pick
right back up and say, well, there's, there's something else going on.
And yeah, it's hard.
It's hard to, to convince somebody that, you know, somebody who has not experienced it
themselves, right?
(45:02):
That, that the, you know, the alcohol is just a symbol of your problems, you know, the real,
the real disease centers in your brain, not your body.
And it's, I agree with Bob though, you know, if, if a family can, can, can do anything over
that time, it's not, don't put any hurdles in front of this person, you know, say we,
this is, this is a disease of guilt and shame.
I mean, we, we are the kings and queens of doing that to ourselves, you know, so we don't
(45:27):
need anything, you know, oh, but your aunt Molly loves the cookies you bake.
She wants to see like none of that crap, you know, just if this guy just wants to disappear
into his 12 step community or into, you know, whatever community for a couple of months
and then appear, pray that that is the case, you know, pray that that might happen.
I mean, you know, really keep expectations low.
(45:48):
You know, to answer your, your first question you said about like an active, that's a lot
harder, right?
You know, those situations are all going to be just case by case.
And I mean, you know, I've never had personal experience with a child, right?
Who is in active addiction.
So I think I never pretend to understand what say, you know, the media family or the parents
(46:12):
are going through.
You know, I can't, I can't imagine it.
I will say there is an incredible book, you know, it's in the realm of hungry ghosts.
You might have heard of it.
The Cabourmete wrote it.
You got a chapter at the end and it's talking precisely to families of a person who's actively
addicted.
And, and I think that if you read that chapter, you know, that that sums it up about as well
(46:35):
as I've heard anybody.
He's an addiction researcher.
He's still working the downtown, the side of Vancouver, which to my knowledge was the
only open air drug market that could rival Kensington, right?
So, you know, if you're familiar with Kensington, it's extremely like unique place.
Okay.
There's, I don't think there's anywhere else in this country at least that's quite
like it.
But this place is like that, right?
(46:56):
So, so he worked there, you know, it's, you know, a lot of folks who are not necessarily
trying to get sober.
I mean, they're just maybe trying to not die that day is kind of what the, what it boils
down to and he talks to family members, right?
Like what, what you can do because it's very, very hard for families.
Now, how do we discern or, and maybe there is no way, but if our loved one is in early
(47:21):
recovery from what is isolation, like, hey, I'm going to go sit in my room and I need
to be out of the room versus what is self care or working their program or how do you balance
that?
Because I think a lot of times loved ones, family members, like we start doing the over
scheduling and we're going to be with you all the time and we're going to hold your
(47:41):
hand through this.
Talk about that a little bit.
I can, I can recall back when, when, you know, I was first in the office and this recovery
process and those events came up, right?
Like the Speaker James or the Marathon meetings that, that took priority.
Like, because I had to put my recovery first and I remember, you know, family members being
(48:01):
disappointed that I wasn't going to make every single party.
But the reality is like as a loved one, the first, like, especially when you're new in
this process, like you, like we talk about the 90 meetings and 90 days and, you know,
the getting of the sponsor.
It's so important for the person who's, you know, beginning in this recovery process to
(48:24):
start like spreading their wings and really trying to get embedded into this, you know,
recovery world.
So like, you know, there's a healthy balance between like you talked about like, oh, you
know, over scheduling and also being understanding that like if there's something that's prioritized,
like whether, you know, it could be a commitment at a meeting, going to a meeting, maybe it's
(48:44):
just, maybe they just want to go and enjoy some time with their, with their fellowship
folks.
Like, because I remember there was times where we just wanted like, you know, six or seven
of my buddies, we just, we planned to do something for that weekend.
And so I just think you have to understand the importance of like allowing your loved
one who's engulfing into this recovery process to like allow them their space to try to do
that.
(49:05):
And, you know, yeah, just allow them to do that.
That's awesome.
Any last thoughts we have here as we wrap up?
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to add this.
One other point I think too that it's important is, is for the actual person who's trying
(49:26):
to not drink or use other drugs, is to make that kind of declaration in your head like
that day, they make it firm, right?
So you know, I was just talking to somebody recently and you know, everybody's experience
here is different.
I mean, my, my thing happened to be pretty kind of big news, right?
Everybody, my, all my family and friends kind of found out overnight, right?
(49:47):
So that took away, I wasn't telling anybody.
I mean, my stuff was very hidden, you know, in terms of, of, of what I was choosing to
tell people, right?
But then there was something that happened that kind of everybody found out overnight.
All right.
So, which was horrible at the time.
Now like looking back at what an advantage that is really, right?
Because you don't have to worry anymore.
Oh, what do I tell him?
(50:08):
What do I tell her?
How do I say this?
It's like everybody knew.
Okay.
Crap.
So that's not good.
But you know, now looking back, I think, okay, that's, that makes, that made it easier.
I'll talk to this woman.
So they, nobody really knows the, the her situation.
Now she, she, she drinks wine casually with them, right?
But then she'll do like the bottle before and the bottle after like in secret kind of thing.
(50:31):
And her problem is, is serious, but everybody doesn't know about it.
So, so she goes to this party and she says to, to them, like in the beginning she, she
had about 10 days sober at this point or something.
And she was saying, you know, guys, I, I, I'm really trying not to drink right now.
Okay.
I think she used those words.
I'm really trying not to drink right now.
(50:53):
That's about as firm as she, and, and you know, so the, maybe the first or second time
they brought the bottle out, she, she passed, right?
I'm trying not to drink right now.
And then as they were getting a little bit more tipsy, they offered it to her again,
like a little bit stronger.
And then she drank and then, you know, kind of set her off on this little spiral, right?
But I recommend people just be, be firm.
(51:16):
You know, it's, I mean, it's hard sometimes, but they, if it's alcohol, right?
I am not drinking.
That's it.
That's it.
Right?
Most people are not going to be pushing you like any more than that.
Do you want to drink?
No thank you.
Right?
So, you know, for the people who might not know that you're in recovery and say, oh,
what do I say when my friend asks me or want to, no thank you.
(51:39):
Most of the time that works, right?
It's like the majority of people aren't, aren't thinking enough about you to push on that
anymore.
Why are you drinking?
You have a, that my first sponsor too, he would say that if somebody would say to him,
why, do you have a problem with alcohol?
And you say, no, do you?
Yeah, that would be, he would have spin it back on.
This is, I mean, somebody who doesn't know his situation, somebody casual.
(52:02):
And people, you know, we really get like in our heads a lot about what do I say?
And yeah, most of the time I'm not drinking.
Hopefully as a culture we're getting better about not asking why, but they're in the stigma,
you know, is reducing, but it still exists.
But obviously just being able to say no or being able to say I'm in recovery can, can
(52:27):
solve a lot of problems.
And I'll just kind of end with, you know, I was doing a lot of reflecting, you know,
as the year end approaches.
And it's, you know, like I think back to early recovery and all those like uncomfortable decisions
that I made and did all those things that I necessarily didn't want to do, whether it
was those commitments and those, you know, the recovery house going there after, after
(52:50):
treatment.
And just like year over year incrementally.
And I don't know, like this year has just been like a huge milestone in so many areas,
like professionally, you know, relationship.
There's just a ton of things that have been happening over the last year, but like every
year I incrementally have seen growth and I, and I look back and I just think about like
how much clarity I've gained, how much self-awareness that I've gained just year over year by doing
(53:16):
those uncomfortable things and, you know, making some of those small sacrifices.
So, you know, if you're new to recovery, I just think it's important, like I said, just
for me, get to a meeting, put your hand up and get vulnerable and just introduce yourself
and allow people in whatever fellowship you choose to do to just support you through this
process.
That's good.
Bob, any last thoughts?
(53:38):
Sure.
So I guess kind of the backtrack a little bit, we were talking about what like the loved
one of a person in early recovery should like kind of be doing, like if you guys are going
to an event together and I just wanted to put out like I would have a conversation like
before you go about like, so let's say your person that's in early recovery is telling
(53:59):
you, hey, like there's a possibility that I might feel uncomfortable here and I might
want to leave early.
So if you're not in a place where you're okay with that, like if you're like, well, no,
this is my family and I really want to be there.
I don't want to have to leave.
That's fine.
Just figure out a way that you guys can leave separately then.
Like have an alternative plan if you're not ready to go when they are.
(54:19):
And if you do decide like, hey, like whenever you feel uncomfortable, we'll get out of there.
Like I'm here to support you.
If that's the route that you choose to take, when they do bring it up, like don't fight
them.
You know what I mean?
Like stick to like what you actually said.
But once again, like there's always like options.
If you're not comfortable with leaving early, then just find a way that they can get out
of safely separately.
(54:40):
If that's what you have to do.
Bob, Kevin, Jeff.
Thank you so much for being with us today.
This has been really, really powerful stuff and great information for families and those
in recovery.
So appreciate your time and your willingness to do this.
We typically end with favorite recovery quote, but since it's the holidays, favorite holiday
(55:02):
song.
Favorite holiday song.
Do you have one?
For me, it's like that.
I don't even know what it's called.
I just like the Siberian orchestra song.
Oh yeah, that's good.
I want to go to one of those concerts.
I don't know if I could handle a 90 minute of it though.
I love it.
I like it.
(55:23):
I'm going to have to try.
I'm going to go with Mariah Carey.
All I want for Christmas.
Oh, classic.
We got to end it right there.
I can't think of a song.
I will say show Christmas Carol.
You know, we're going to see Christmas Carol at the Waunau Theater tomorrow.
I'm super excited for that.
I'm sure it will break out some songs as well.
Just that whole idea, right?
(55:44):
The whole redemption story.
I'm a sucker for it though.
Thank you so much.
Thank you listeners for joining us today.
If you or someone you know needs help, please call 1-833-RCA-ALUMN.
There are people like Kevin, Bob, standing by, Jeff to help you or your loved one access
(56:04):
care.
Thank you.
Join us next time.
Thank you for listening to the Strength and Recovery podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please tap the subscribe button and leave us a review.
(56:24):
We love hearing from our listeners and hope to reach more of you out there as we continue
to share these incredible stories of recovery.
The RCA alumni team aims to provide a safe, supportive environment for those in the recovery
community regardless of their affiliation with RCA.
We host a full calendar of virtual and in-person meetings seven days a week, 365 days a year,
(56:51):
as well as free sober events every month.
To learn more about what we do, find us at rcaalumni.com.
Remember, if you or a loved one is struggling with addiction, pick up the phone and dial
1-833-RCA-ALUMN.
Help is available 24-7.
(57:13):
Listen to another episode now or join us next time for the Strength and Recovery podcast.
Hello listeners, welcome to the Strength and Recovery podcast sponsored by Recovery Centers
(00:23):
of America.
I'm Jay Rodenbush, director of alumni engagement for RCA and host of this podcast.
We're so excited to be joined today by an amazing group of individuals and we're very
privileged to have them with us.
And we just wanted to talk about the holidays and recovery and such an important topic,
(00:43):
such an amazing time of year, but also can be maybe a pain point, can I say that Jeff?
I agree.
I just wanted to talk for those, especially in early recovery.
So just wanted to talk that through and so I wanted them to introduce themselves.
So Jeff, let's start us out here.
Hi guys, I'm Jeff Simone.
(01:03):
I work in the IT department here at RCA.
I got sober on November 12, 2016.
So I just celebrated seven years last month.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
So this is my eighth holiday season and yeah, I think it's a great topic.
I think there's going to be a lot of good discussion and then there's certainly something
that a lot of people probably want to hear about.
(01:25):
So thanks for inviting me.
So my name is Kevin Congden.
Hello everyone.
I work here at the admissions department for recovery centers of America.
Also in recovery, my clean date is May 7, 2019.
So we're coming up on our fifth holiday season and I can definitely relate to this topic
(01:46):
for sure.
Hello everyone, my name is Bob Gibson.
I'm one of the alumni coordinators at recovery centers of America.
I've been in recovery for a little over five years and I'm really happy to be here to have
this conversation.
Thanks so much for joining us and we'll just launch into why do you think the holidays
(02:10):
are such a trigger?
I think that there's just a lot of emotion around it in general.
Stressors tend to be one of the more highly correlated things with trouble in recovery
and there's no shortage of stressors around the holidays, whether it's financial, whether
(02:34):
it's work, whether it's just family.
Family is triggering.
It's like it doesn't, and I say this a lot, it doesn't matter if there's drugs or alcohol
at home necessarily.
That people think, oh, I have a good family, my family's not going to, it's like there's
stuff there.
I mean, I have a great family, I have a wonderful family, but the holidays were hard.
(02:55):
They were hard despite that.
It's like you don't have to be, my family doesn't have to be offering me drugs for that
to be a difficult situation and it was.
I know for me personally, and one of the first things that I start saying here, a lot of
times, is just that you can say no to as many of these events or as many of these things
(03:19):
as possible.
It's like a lot of people give themselves really into, oh, what do I say to this one?
What do I, okay, I have to go to this holiday party, they're going to be drinking there.
It's like, okay, there's plenty of situations where you're going to be in a not so great
scenario, but you can say no to a lot.
(03:39):
This is about saving your ass, not your face.
First and foremost, right?
I tell a lot of people, you might live 50 more years.
You'll have plenty of time to go to all these things for the holiday season to be magical
for you to feel like you're having a great experience.
If you say no, nobody's going to hold that against you.
(03:59):
Practicing the no.
No one's going to be able to say, I can't make it.
Remember back in 2023 when you didn't show up to that, but if you get drunk and you flip
the table and you punch this guy in the face, they're going to remember that.
And that your no is enough, I think can be, I mean, I think that's with setting any boundary,
not thinking, oh, I have to have 500 excuses, just saying, oh, I'm sorry, I can't make it.
(04:24):
And that that is sufficient.
Right.
I mean, I can't tell you how many things I said no to in the beginning.
And there are little tricks that you can do.
I mean, it's like that's over on November 12th, okay, 2016.
So that was a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving.
And I was around here, you know, so prior to that I had been introduced to recovery.
(04:46):
I was actually court ordered in May of 2013.
All right.
And I was living in Southern California.
And that was my first introduction.
And Southern California has some really good recovery.
I'm blessed actually that I was introduced to the group of guys that I was introduced
to.
Now it didn't stick.
I wasn't quite ready at that point, but that whole experience allowed me that once I did
(05:12):
get sober in the Philadelphia area, I was able to plug in really quick.
So we were taking on commitments.
We would just go down to Mercy Hospital and Belmont Hospital and Friends Hospital.
We had a lot of these things going.
So the one that was on Thursday night and Thursday night happened to be Thanksgiving.
(05:34):
And I kept it, right?
So I went to Thanksgiving.
We did that for a couple of hours with family.
I mean, I was a couple of weeks sober at this point.
And it was really, really bad.
You know, like long withdrawals coming off of, you know, like dependencies on a lot of
different things, opiates, amphetamines, muscle relaxers, benzoons.
So it was not good.
(05:54):
But I was there.
I kind of showed my face, you know, and then I left.
I left and we drove down to Friends Hospital, right?
So I wouldn't say that that was an excuse, you know, to leave, but I didn't, but I let
it work for me, right?
You know, I know somebody was saying, oh, you know, you can just, you can skip it, right?
It's like, it's just one, we can get somebody to cover that for you.
(06:15):
But I remember thinking like, no, I kind of want to use this, right?
Because it's like, this left me, I can show up to my family.
We had dinner.
It was very nice.
And by the time any kind of alcohol or really anything else was going to be coming out,
I was out.
So that was, I guess, one of the things that I was able to use early on that seemed to
help.
(06:36):
Kevin, or your thoughts?
Yeah, for sure.
So I think Jeff had a couple of good points.
You know, early in recovery, I remember, you know, the fear of showing up to family parties
when knowing that there'd be family members there drinking.
I think, you know, everyone in my family, for the most part, I'm the only one in recovery.
I have, you know, 18 total cousins, big family.
(06:58):
And we really do cherish the holiday time.
Like, I enjoy this time of year for sure.
But I recall being early in, you know, sobriety and just having that overwhelming, like, nervous
feeling.
Even like, I got clean in May.
So I remember going down the beach that year with the family and people were going down
to the beach with pours.
And, you know, I just had to learn how to, like, set healthy boundaries, whether that
(07:21):
was like, listen, I'm just going to come for an hour or two.
So I felt the need that, you know, it was time to go, you know, once people started
getting a little out of hand and whatnot.
So that was important for me for sure.
You know, having like a...
How do you recognize that moment?
Like, yeah, it's time for me to go and listen to it, right?
Like it's one thing to recognize it and then act on it.
(07:42):
Yeah, for me, and I'll be honest, like, this is something I would, you know, talk in depth
with my sponsor about back then.
And I remember he's like, listen, the Irish goodbye is okay.
You know, if you're at that point where you're just starting to feel uncomfortable, you don't
need to explain yourself to anyone.
No one's going to probably, you know, remember the next day that you left early or you didn't
say goodbye.
You're going to see them probably the next day at the next family party.
(08:05):
So just being able to be in tune with like when it was time.
And another key point was I actually, I remember my first year in recovery for those events,
like I actually brought someone along with me from like my support group that was also
in recovery.
So I had someone there that we had like the common thing going on and we could kind of
lean on each other.
(08:25):
Like, you know, if I was feeling uncomfortable, it was time to go.
I just, we left.
Just slip out.
Yeah.
And then another, like kind of a hot topic now with, you know, four and a half years clean
and Jeff touch on this is like learning how to have like a healthy balance of all the commitments
and obligations because, you know, having all this, you know, clean time now and like
(08:50):
wanting to be invited like family members are now wanting me to be around and everyone's
inviting you to all these events, whether it's Pollyanna stuff work events.
You know, my girlfriend lives in Newark Jersey.
So we have to travel a lot for, for some of these events and it's learning how to say
no has been a difficult thing for me.
My sister actually just gave birth to my first and only nephew.
(09:13):
This is my first experience being, you know, an uncle in recovery.
I have no children myself.
So I'm super excited about this.
And there's all these other events that have been planned for months now where I want to
spend a lot of my time in the next few weeks, you know, going over to her house.
So, you know, something me and my sponsor were talking about a third meeting last night,
like just learning how to say no, it's okay.
(09:37):
And not in allowing yourself the permission to not get over scheduled.
Exactly.
And you know, for me, and this is for myself, I was a big people pleaser.
So saying no was a difficult for me and always wanting to show up.
My mom, you know, like I said, family is super important to us.
And last weekend she texted me, hey, we have our big family Pollyanna party next Saturday.
(09:59):
And I said, I got to look at the schedule.
I got to talk through some things and I got to get back to you.
And you know, that's probably not something my mom wanted to hear because she, you know,
she wrote back, well, what's good, why not?
Why would you not be there?
This is our family party, right?
But I also have to keep like my recovery in the forefront too right now.
Like I had a commitment to speak at a meeting last night.
(10:19):
These are also events after my 50 hour work week, right?
That I have to find time to schedule and do.
So I think for me, it's just learning how to navigate that balance because like I said,
like the more that your, you know, your life becomes fuller and you're staying clean, like
the more opportunities that are presented, the more doors are opened and the more relationships
(10:42):
you have, your network gets so big between recovery folks, work folks, family folks, friends
folks that it's, it becomes a very difficult balance and act and that's been my experience.
Bob, I think this really speaks to you.
I mean, I see you as someone who lives a really disciplined life with your schedule.
And can you talk a little bit about that and how that's, how that's interrelated to the
(11:06):
holiday stuff?
Sure.
Yeah.
So I guess the thing that I've been thinking about while I was sitting here.
So the way that when, when I was newer in recovery, absolutely kind of agree with like
what Jeff was saying, like I just didn't go to things.
If I wasn't comfortable in my mind, it just like wasn't worth risking my recovery.
And it's like, alcoholics and addicts, like generally speaking, we're like an incredibly
(11:27):
self centered group of people.
And we think that like everyone's going to be like super concerned with it, where we
are.
And if we left early and why we weren't there, but the reality is like most of the time, like
we're thinking about ourselves way more than anybody else is.
So like these guys alluded to the odds are like a year or two.
Later after that event, nobody's going to even remember that I was not there.
The other thing is far as like just remaining disciplined in that routine.
(11:48):
So for example, my on Christmas this year, my home group is on Christmas.
They're not going to not have the meeting.
And my family also like wants to have me because like these guys also mentioned like my family
wants me around.
They like being around me today, which wasn't like always the case.
But I had a conversation with them earlier this week and I'm going to go there.
(12:11):
I'm going to have some food with them and I'm going to leave a little bit early to go
to my home group.
So like in reality, it's just another day.
Like just because it's a holiday doesn't mean that I'm not going to do the things I'm supposed
to do to stay sober.
I'm still going to pray.
I'm still going to talk to people on the phone.
If it's my home group, especially I'm still going to go to a meeting regardless.
So just treating it like any other day.
And then the other last thing I want to throw out.
(12:33):
So another thing, this isn't my experience, but it might be some other people's.
There's going to be a lot of people in early recovery that might not have anywhere to go
during the holidays.
They might not be welcome with their family or anywhere else because of some of the harms
that we cause when we're out there using.
So just putting it out, if you get yourself involved in like really any recovery fellowship
(12:53):
in existence, they're normally doing things all day on the holidays.
Normally 24 hours straight.
They're having meetings every hour.
There's food.
So if you don't have anywhere to go, I would just like try Google and your recovery fellowship
of choice, see where there's meetings and they're probably doing stuff on the holidays.
So have somewhere to go.
That's awesome.
And several of you in service, like as a part of, you know, having commitments to speak
(13:17):
or has that been part of?
Yeah.
And I actually, my first year sober, I was just sitting there thinking, I mean, that's,
I mean, that was a God moment, right?
Because I was still sick, you know, still actively.
I've been to treatment this past time.
(13:38):
I mean, I kind of did it in more of like an outpatient setting.
I mean, it was, I don't, I don't recommend that, right?
But I was, I mean, I was sick.
This meeting was at six o'clock in the morning, about 45 minutes from my house.
Okay.
Which means that some guy picked me up.
I had known him for a couple of weeks now.
Okay.
He, he was at my house, my apartment at the time, at like five something in the morning.
(14:02):
And I was there.
I mean, it'll be hard for me to do that today, right?
It's hard for me to get up and be, you know, it's cold, it's dark.
I was, I was whatever, 14, 17 days still actively sick.
And I did that, you know, that was just when we talked about those little, just, just,
just those little windows.
I truly believe we get these, these windows of opportunity, you know, us, the addicted
(14:26):
population, you know, get these little windows.
And it's like, they, you don't know how long their windows going to open and the wind
and slam shut.
You don't know if it's ever going to open again.
You know, it's, it's like that, that day, whatever that day was, November 20 something,
you know, 2016 when I had about 14 days, I was willing enough to, I don't even know
(14:47):
if I slept, I wasn't sleeping very much, but I was up and I was dressed enough to walk
outside cold, you know, put a button, I was freezing, shivering and I walked out there
and I got in and I sat in that room and it was, it was stuff like that that really helped,
you know, and, you know, like Bob was saying, nowadays it's like, if that is a commitment
(15:09):
and if that commitment is, is going on on a certain day, it doesn't really matter what
the date is, right?
It's like, if it's, you know, if, if, if you're hosting for that month and it's a Friday and
that Friday happens to be December, I don't know, 26 and there's going to be, it's like,
you're going to that first, you know, and I think stuff like that's important.
(15:30):
So you don't really have to run it through the filter of like, should I be doing this?
It's kind of like, this is what I do, you know, so I am doing this.
And then if somebody asks you something else, you say, you know, maybe we can get together
some other time.
I, you know, I'm sharing a meeting this day or, or I'm speaking this day.
We used to actually intentionally put ourselves on, you know, like around the holidays because,
(15:52):
you know, again, it's like now, now I do enjoy it.
I have a seven year old son and a five year old daughter.
You know, they say, don't make any major decisions your first year.
I had a baby.
How did that work out for you?
Well, actually I had the baby first and then I say, again, I don't recommend that.
(16:13):
You know, I don't recommend having a baby at home when you're, when you're trying to,
but that's, that's, that's the way that it was.
And I actually love the fact that he's, you know, I have seven years.
He has seven years.
And he understands it now, you know, that he has, I mean, not fully obviously, but,
but he asks questions.
You know, the big picture of him holding my seven year chip, a big smile on his face,
(16:33):
that he knows stuff, you know, that he knows, like when he was sick, daddy was, when he
was born, daddy was sick, you know, that he knows, he knows that there was a time where
I, where I, you know, couldn't, couldn't, couldn't stop using drugs and, and he, you
know, kind of like understands just, just, just, just the ideas of like wanting to stop
(16:54):
and, and he can't, you know, he's, he's kind of old enough now just to be able to understand
some of that stuff.
But, you know, but those first couple of holidays, it's like, I had that thought in my head very,
very clean.
You know, it's so clear in my head of just, all right, you know, you're going to live 50
more years.
You know, that 50 years was always in my head.
You're going to live 50 more years.
All right.
This, right now, this is just like a sacrifice, you know, for the greater good.
(17:18):
Okay.
If you want the next 49 to be decent, to be, for you to be alive and actually, you know,
potentially enjoying these, you got to get this first one right.
And I say that all the time.
I mean, the first year it's like, the expectation is be sober, you know, survive in advance.
(17:39):
It's like nothing else, not, not be sober and have a magical Christmas.
You know, you know, nothing else to feel magical.
The pressure, I think that we put on ourselves that these days need to be magical or they
need to be special, you know, and, and they can be right.
But just how do you remove the pressure?
(17:59):
You have thoughts on that Kevin?
Well, you know, I was, I was thinking about that.
And, you know, you're talking about being in service during the holiday season.
For me, right, like my way of giving back is, is trying to be in service to not only
just like members of my fellowship, whether it's, you know, sponsors or, you know, other
(18:23):
people that are in my support group, but like giving back to my loved ones, because I think
back to the times where, and I, you know, I have to be transparent.
I've missed many of holidays in jails and institutions for, for a very long time.
You know, there's a point in time where I was incarcerated for nine months and, you
know, I remember my sister was graduating in high school.
(18:45):
I was sending like letters home.
No one was returning my letters.
No one was answering my phone calls.
Nobody was, you know, sending money up for me.
And I was just in a very miserable and lonely place, but selfishly in that moment, like
it was about me, me, me.
And you know, with some time clean now, like you look back on those moments and just seeing
how like excited my family is to have me be a part of now and how much they want me around,
(19:11):
thinking back like, you know, all the family pictures, right?
Like when I walk in my grandmother's house and I see all the holiday family pictures
and there's everyone in the family, all the cousins, and I'm not in those pictures.
And yes, it hurts me, but I got to think about like in my mother and those moments,
like how upset my mom was that like her only son was not there to like participate and
(19:32):
be a part of those life experiences, you know?
So nowadays, like for me, I try to like give back, like being in service.
Part of this is like giving back to those people that have, you know, been there for
me too.
You know, so I try to take that into account, right?
When I'm scheduling all those events, like it's just important for me to be there, participate
(19:57):
and, you know, just give back to those loved ones that are excited to have me there.
And how do you go about, I think a lot of families listen in and a lot of people are
trying to navigate the family dynamic and maybe it's the first time that you're invited
back or, and families, they're not sure like, do they serve alcohol?
(20:24):
Do they not?
Like everybody's kind of on eggshells, right?
How do you have those conversations and say, hey mom, here's what I need or here's what
you could, or talk us through that?
Anyone's welcome.
It's like, we don't have to go in a circle.
I'll slide in.
Sounds good.
This is Bob.
(20:45):
Hi everyone, it's Bob again.
So I'll just like once again, I can only really speak on my own experience with this concept.
So when I was even like relatively early on in recovery, I was kind of coached up by people
who had been around longer than me.
And the idea is not to, you know, try to mold the world to fit me.
(21:07):
It's trying to kind of get myself to a place where I can fit into it regardless of like
what's going on around me, finding a way to like be okay and see if it's stable within
that.
So for me, I personally didn't want people to act differently around me.
I don't want to go to a Thanksgiving or Christmas and have everybody walking on eggshells and
think that they can't have a drink or two if they want.
(21:30):
The people that are in my family are, you know, quote unquote normal drinkers.
So I don't want them to feel like they have to change their behavior on account of me.
But I will say they did, they would offer, which you know, was appreciated and they would,
they checked to see if I was comfortable, which once again, I appreciated.
And what does that sound like?
(21:52):
What is checking to see if you're comfortable?
I think really practically like as a mom or dealing with a sister, loved one, how do
I talk to my brother who's coming in the door?
So now they, you know, I've been sober a little while, so they're aware that like it's not
really something that's bothersome for me.
(22:13):
But in the beginning, they would straight up just ask.
They would just be like, Hey, does it make you uncomfortable that I'm drinking this?
And I would, you know, tell them the truth.
But like really once again, like this is just my, my perspective.
People don't have to use it.
I'm, you know, I can't like expect like the world to change and ebb and flow for me.
I got to find a way to be okay with it.
(22:33):
And it goes back to like, if I don't feel comfortable going somewhere, I'm not going.
And when it's time to leave, it's time to leave.
Like these guys talked about the Irish exit.
I was notorious for that when I was drunk.
I do it sober.
I did it like very recently.
Don't tell anybody.
But I was at two weddings, like pretty recently.
I know it's not a holiday, but it's like a similar event.
There's people at Jovial, they're celebrating.
(22:54):
And I always kind of have my, my thing where there is a turn and it happens at like every
event that I'm at where people are drinking, where like it goes from where people are just
like kind of feeling a little good and being a little silly to now they're drunk.
Now they're like saying the same thing to me over and over again.
And once that starts to happen, that's for me, that's my, my signal to go.
(23:16):
I leave like when that change happens.
And like you can just watch a room and like you can see it happen.
Most people hit that point like kind of at the same time.
And then like I don't belong there anymore.
That's kind of like my mindset.
And if you're going to an event with someone who's newly sober and what would your advice
be for that person who's accompanying someone, maybe a spouse or like a family member?
(23:42):
They give on the family member going with my spouse who is newly in recovery.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so first I like, I like what, what you know, Bob was just saying just about, you
know, like the indications of when you should leave.
You know, I said, you know, when it gets like that and I agree with that, especially in the
beginning, you know, you need those little, I mean, I will say now, like I, I don't, I
(24:07):
don't stay long, not because I think that it's a risky, just because like it's boring.
Right.
It's like, I don't, I have no business.
My time is valuable.
Right.
I have to get there.
Yeah.
My time is valuable.
But each hour that I am intentional with, I'm only going to be places that I want to
be or that I feel that I, you know, that I want to partake in something.
So it's like, if everybody, once in a while there will be exceptions.
(24:30):
Okay.
So just maybe two weeks ago, my wife had a, there was a surprise birthday party for her,
okay.
That her friends threw for her.
So I stayed there a little bit longer in terms of through the drinking stuff, but it's a very
rarely does that happen.
You know, my wife is, yeah, she's not in recovery.
Yes.
She was just maybe would, would drink, I mean, a quote unquote normally, right?
(24:55):
Just to kind of whatever, maybe regular people drink.
I don't even know what that looks like, but I will tell you that over the last seven years,
I don't think we've had alcohol in the house.
I mean, possibly ever.
Right.
There's some people, well, what if I have friends come over and I got it to let them
bring it.
Right.
(25:15):
Like they're, I can't, even if we hosted a party, let them bring it.
You know, if you don't, if you feel so uncomfortable showing up where there's not, you know, not
alcohol, then go somewhere else.
Right.
It's like that's, so that is how you could potentially support somebody if you don't
have a problem.
I've also said to people, you know, they say, well, you know, I, my wife knows that I'm
(25:36):
an alcoholic and I don't need, but she likes to drink once in a while.
So, you know, she wants to keep it in the house.
And you know, sometimes I'll say things like, I mean, they get, if she knows that if you
drink your entire household starts to fall apart and she is just going to bring it in
anyway, despite that, you know, maybe she's got something to look at.
(25:57):
I don't know.
Possibly.
Right.
So I know that my situation is a little bit different because it's more, I'm just more
black and white with, with, with some of that kind of stuff.
It's a choice you've made as a family.
Yeah.
They, as a family, this is just not.
Family disease.
Yeah.
Family recovery.
You might find Gatorade in the fridge.
You're not going to find whiskey.
You're not going to find beer.
(26:18):
I think, and this, this kind of all ties back to why it's so important to have, you know,
be involved in some sort of 12 step fellowship or have, you know, have that sober support
network because no one can really relate to the way we think, the way we feel in these
situations other than people who have struggled with the same problem that we struggle with,
(26:38):
who have experienced the same thing that we have experienced with.
So everything that I've learned in life, like to this point with, you know, almost five
years clean at this point has come from someone in recovery.
Like any adulting type stuff, like in the midst of, you know, house buying process and
my old, my old sponsor was the one who helped me build my credit.
(27:00):
You know, going to these family events during the holiday season, it's not, I'm not going
to go ask my 84 year old grandmother, like, Hey, what are your thoughts on like, if I'm
feeling uncomfortable because uncle Johnny's drinking this weekend, right?
Like she's not going to have the answer for me that I'm looking for that's probably going
to help me, you know, so this all ties back to why it's so important to have those people
(27:21):
in your life, be it a sponsor, you know, be it other members of your fellowship that have
experienced these same issues because they are the ones who can relate to this.
And so for me, like all of those uncomfortable conversations and how to navigate those relationships,
whether it be with a significant other who still drains her, like those ideas are always
bounced off of someone that's in my direct circle prior to that.
(27:45):
I think that's amazing advice.
And I, you know, we work with alums and often new to recovery.
I haven't got a sponsor yet.
I haven't got a sponsor yet.
How critical is going into the holidays, getting a sponsor?
Yeah.
I mean, it's for me, it's, it's, it's the, it's basically the key to my, to my whole
recovery process.
(28:05):
You know, I grew up, my father, you know, it wasn't around for a majority of my life
isn't to this point.
I have a difficult time like opening up and getting vulnerable with men, like, and especially
in a group setting, like showing up to meetings.
It wasn't something I was great at, right?
Like putting my hand up, participating and getting actually honest on the floor about
what's actually going on.
(28:26):
And like through that sponsorship relationship that I've been able to like overcome that
and like slowly open up about all types of issues, whether it's, you know, and I, you
know, I'm not one to put my hand up in a meeting and put all of my business on the
floor when it comes to like, it'll be like sexual related, whatever it is, those things
that maybe you're uncomfortable with putting on the floor, which, you know, for me, that's
just not something I do, but I better sure have a relationship with someone, be it my
(28:49):
sponsor that I can open up and discuss those topics with.
And so like those things don't keep me sick.
So for me, like the sponsor piece is it's really the meat and potatoes.
It's just someone who's going to walk you through the steps, someone that you're going
to build a relationship with and those, you know, to guide you through the step process
and through this whole process altogether.
I would say too, like if you, if you believe that addiction is a disease, okay, if you
(29:14):
accept that and if you agree with the concept of the disease centers in our mind, not our
body, well, then that is suggesting that there's, that our thinking is not right, at least
in the beginning, at least in the beginning, right?
I think I'm not going to put a time limit on it, but I'll say at least in the beginning,
if that is true, then you can't use that same thinking to figure out what you should be
(29:37):
doing your first sober holidays, for example, you know, there's like a line in the book
that says something to the effect of, if we are on firm spiritual ground, we can go anywhere,
you know, quote unquote normal men go.
It's like, I remember reading that and saying to my sponsor after a couple of months, you
know, I think I'm on firm spiritual, right, he's like, I'll, I'll let you know when you're
(29:59):
on firm spiritual ground, right?
So it's like, I think at this point, I could probably say with some certainty, you know,
I said, the earlier I feel like my spirituality is a little bit off right now, right?
It's like, I think that I, that I can kind of, you know, navigate that feeling myself.
When you have a couple of months sober, you can't, right?
It's like, you don't, you just don't know that you haven't been sober long enough to
(30:21):
know what stable feels like.
And the brain is healing.
You just don't know what that is, right?
So you might not have been stable for 15 years in terms of, of, of really emotional stability.
So how are you going to use that same brain now at six weeks sober, going into your first
Christmas to really be able to determine I should go here, I shouldn't go here.
So like Kevin was saying, it's like, you need other people, you know, who you, you know,
(30:46):
they trust and respect.
And that's the biggest thing.
If you are in somebody with active addiction and you don't trust and respect this person,
you're not going to follow what they say anyway.
And it can be really scary.
Somebody can say, well, I have a great supportive family.
I can just talk to my wife about this.
I can talk to my husband about this.
However, that can be really scary for them to hear, well, I'm feeling tempted at this
(31:10):
moment or I'm so, I mean, is that sponsor give you kind of a safe space to share things
that maybe the supportive family should or shouldn't be involved in?
How does that work?
Cause you're supposed to be open with your spouse who wants to take that one?
Everybody's pointing at each other.
Go for it.
Yeah.
(31:31):
So that's interesting that you brought that up, Jay.
It's actually like a really good point.
It's something that I talk about with alums all the time before they leave treatment.
And it's just like a suggestion that I had received from others previously, which is
everything I know about everything recovery related and honestly, like likewise at this
point is things that I just heard other people say or that I was taught and nothing is like
original for me at all.
But like the one thing I explained to patients all the time, like if I'm thinking about,
(31:57):
let's say using heroin, which like occasionally I have thoughts.
I no longer have an obsession.
I don't go do it, which is like the difference, but like the thought comes sometimes.
And if I were to have that thought and then call my mother and just say, Hey, mom, how's
it going?
Just thinking about using heroin.
Just thought I wanted to let you know.
(32:17):
My mom.
Oh my God.
She doesn't need that.
She's probably not going to sleep for like a month.
If I say that to her with like the amount of trauma that I've put her through.
But like if I say that to somebody else in recovery, they're probably not even going
to blink.
I have people that I've worked with over the years that will reach out to me when they're
thinking about using.
And it's not that like I don't care.
(32:39):
It's not that I'm empathetic, but like I'm so used to that type of event happening.
And I've been around long enough that I know that just because they're thinking about it
doesn't mean that they're going to do it, that it's not going to rock my world.
It's not going to like affect my sleep.
I'm not going to become overly emotional afterwards.
But like somebody who's not in recovery, their reaction might not be good.
It might freak them out.
(33:00):
So better to just like, doesn't necessarily have to be a sponsor.
But like somebody else in recovery that gets it, that knows that like, Hey, I thought this
necessarily mean like there's going to be an action afterwards.
And understanding your mom's relationship and her role in your life is different than
the role that a sponsor, someone you're allowing a therapist is going to be able to speak into
your life in a different way and handle that responsibility.
(33:22):
There's a lot of responsibility associated with a statement like that, right?
Yeah.
I mean, there's good chapters in the big book, you know, to wives, the family afterwards.
And it kind of addresses some of these exact things, right?
And there's a family dynamics are huge.
What I love about those chapters actually is that, I mean, just think about like how
(33:44):
much the world has changed right in the last 90, whatever year since the big book was published
in 1939.
But yet you could read these chapters about just, you know, some, some little group in
Akron, Ohio that was meeting 90 years ago and the stuff still applies, right?
So that's why you can see that.
Principles.
Okay.
These are just, yeah, these are just kind of general, the human nature of addiction
(34:07):
as we know it is sort of the same, right?
They're going to be same kind of ideas.
And yeah, I do think that you need to be leaning on other people that you can identify have
had your same issue, you know, your same problem.
Because again, I mean, it's not, you know, if, if you were with your spouse before and
you were using and now you're not, yeah, it's like, if, if this spouse or a mother or anybody
(34:31):
else for as if their love was able to save you and cure you, right?
So we wouldn't be having this problem, you know, you know, so we, we are loved people,
you know, people that we have people that are in our lives.
You know, it's like, there's, there's something else going on here.
Part of that, yeah, sponsorship thing is, you know, it's a, you need to be surrounded
(34:53):
by people.
Also, just the fact that by nature, the family can't possibly know all the, the alcohol was
not my, my drug of choice.
Okay.
So it's like, why should alcohol even be like a thing for my family?
You know, why should they even think, think twice about alcohol?
(35:14):
You know, it's like, that's not just like intuitive for family members.
You know, if you're, yeah, I mean, if your thing is opiates and that was what drove you
into, you know, that's what got you in trouble with the law.
That's what, you know, that's what got you in jail.
That's what made you lose your job.
All like all that kind of stuff.
And these people have seen you drinking casually, at least right from the time that you were
younger.
(35:35):
It's like, why shouldn't you be able to do that now?
And it's like, we can't possibly expect that family is going to understand because a lot
of this stuff is sort of beyond, you know, beyond just, just, just common knowledge,
even the people that have their ear to the grindstone and that, you know, maybe show
up to some stuff.
I mean, some, some family members are more, you know, more plugged in with their own recoveries
(35:55):
and now and on, you know, programs, for example.
And that helps by the way.
I mean, I, I encourage family all the time to do that, right?
Because you're not going to be able to, you know, think they're just like, we're not able
to think our way out of it.
The family is not going to be able to think their way into, into saving you either.
And that stuff's important.
(36:18):
Talk a little bit about, or maybe to the family, the individual inactive addiction and going
into the holidays.
Again, it just adds a layer of stress.
What are some advice, what's some advice that you would give to families whose loved one
(36:40):
is an active addiction?
Yeah, I can kind of elaborate on that one.
You know, obviously this is something that I deal with on a day in and day out basis
here at work, but just from my experience.
You were helping families who they're looking to get their loved one in treatment, right?
Sure.
And people, families call in every day.
(37:02):
I have my son, cousin, brother, girlfriend that's struggling.
I have no idea what to do, no idea how to help.
And it's difficult.
I've had personal experience with this as well with, you know, sponsors, friends, family.
But most importantly, like from my experience, right?
And I'm just thinking back to this, like I think setting healthy boundaries is like the
(37:23):
best suggestion that I can honestly give to someone in that situation.
You know, for me, it was like so many times, my, like my grandmother will call it, right?
Like enable me to just continue to show up at the house, like left treatment AMA had
a place to go back and knock on the door the next morning, right?
Like if I needed to finesse my way in to get money again, like it was there.
(37:47):
And like, so I think for me that the best recommendation is you just have to learn how
to put your foot down and set healthy boundaries.
It's difficult to do because I know we like love these people unconditionally.
But for me, for this addict, alcohol, like until the consequences were great enough.
And you know, I had burnt those bridges and had nowhere else to turn.
(38:09):
And you know, I have like emotional and physical scars, right?
From my using and for me, it was like till the consequences got great enough.
I wasn't, I just wasn't ready.
You know, doors were still open, places to sleep, people to call, money to get.
So I just, I just think that the healthy boundary pieces is the most important one.
(38:31):
And I know that that's easier said than done sometimes, whether it's a, you know,
just going back to just exercising the right to say no, yeah, knowing that that is not
necessarily a bad thing or something that's going to increase the problem.
And Jeff talked about that, those nor non and Al-Nan programs that loved ones and families
(38:52):
can go to.
I remember for me, someone recommended that for my grandmother and my mom.
And I remember they went there and they were blown away.
They were so upset leaving there because people told them the truth.
Like, you know, because sometimes it's not just me.
That's the problem is the addict and alcohol.
Like if we're someone that's enabling that behavior.
And sometimes, you know, there's, there's a lot of psychology and a lot of different
(39:15):
situations, but sometimes the codependency piece is another factor, right?
Like we're just scared to let them go cause we're, we're scared to be lonely too.
My grandma maybe didn't want to sit through the holidays by herself because she wanted
me in that house, whether I was using or not.
So it's just a different dynamic to look at.
But those, those nor non and Al-Nan meetings, they, they give very good like insight and
perspective.
(39:36):
It's literally just other moms and dads who have been through this before, whether, whether
their son or daughters actively using, they could be in that group cause their son and
daughter has significant amounts of clean time or they could be in that group.
Their, their loved one passed away from this disease.
So I would, I would recommend that for any family members to kind of go there and get
the information for sure.
And that is it.
(39:56):
That is a 12 step fellowship for loved ones, not necessarily struggling with addiction,
but a support room for you to go and talk to.
So that would be my recommendation.
I just wanted to slide in on another idea.
So the one thing I would throw out too, so if you, if you are the loved one of somebody
who's in active addiction and they, you get like that window.
(40:17):
So Jeff alluded to it earlier, like there's these like small little like windows of opportunity
where like an, you know, an alcoholic or an addict might have like a moment of clarity.
And it's normally like very brief where they might like kind of see their life for what
it is for a moment.
We're like very delusional when we're using, but sometimes we have these moments and if
they have one of those moments and they're talking about wanting to get treatment, highly
(40:39):
suggest not telling them like, oh, well, like, why don't you go after the holiday?
Because they might lose that willingness to go get help in 10 minutes, let alone like
four days, five days.
So if somebody's willing to go, I would strongly advise not trying to make them wait to go
through a holiday first.
And secondly, if they are in treatment and there's a holiday coming up, not pulling them
(41:04):
out to make it to the holiday, like let them finish their course of treatment.
My situation, like the first time I went to a detox was right before Thanksgiving.
And I kind of weaponized that to get out of there before I should have.
I went in there, I stayed for five days and then, you know, I appealed to my mother that
(41:25):
I can't miss Thanksgiving.
So you have to, you know, you have to let me come home.
I can't possibly be in here for Thanksgiving.
So I came home way, way sooner than I was supposed to and I didn't stay sober.
But once again, like it was, it was talked about going to those programs for the loved
ones of the alcoholic or addict.
If my mother had been going to one of those, she would have known better.
(41:45):
She would have known that she shouldn't have pulled me out of there.
So just putting that out as well.
And talk a little bit about the importance.
I think so many times people think, well, I got the substance or the alcohol, I got
the, that out of my body.
So I'm good, right?
I detoxed.
I went to a program for seven to 10 days.
(42:07):
The drug is out of my system.
So I'm okay now.
And I can go home.
Why is, why is staying in treatment?
Why is, why is that so important?
Do you want to take that, Jeff?
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
So I will say that the first time most, there are a lot of folks who will end up in some
(42:31):
type of treatment multiple times, that's common.
I will say that the majority of people that myself included prior to that first time getting
in that you really do think that the problem is the drugs, you know, because the, why wouldn't
you?
Most of your problems seem to be caused by the drugs.
You know, you're spending all your money on the drugs.
(42:52):
The cops are on your case because of the drugs, right?
It's like, they're not on you because you're thinking goofy, you know, they're on you
because you're doing this because of the drugs.
So that was what I thought that the problem was.
And for many, many years, you know, and I really, I became obsessed with this idea.
I remember having this, this very, very clear picture.
Like if you could just put me in some kind of like medically induced coma, okay?
(43:15):
Because I was, I mean, I was chemically dependent, you know, strung out on opiates, okay?
Try to stop.
I couldn't, I got sick.
And I was working, right?
So just the whole, I can't leave, I can't take time off from work.
What are they going to do without me?
It turns out they fired me and they were fine.
This is one of the biggest companies.
They're doing fine.
Their stocks prices are still okay, despite the fact that I'm not with the company.
(43:35):
But I remember thinking like, if I could just be in this, you know, one year, right?
Put me, you know, feed me through a tube and just, and I can wake up after a year and I'm
totally cleaned out like I was when I was like 15 and I could just walk out and be totally
fine.
And I didn't get brought into this treatment, you know, against my will at the time, but
sometimes it has to be like that.
And I finished the detox and I was actually court ordered to do three months, which is
(43:57):
still not happy about that decision.
But yeah, I told my first sponsor, this is cruel and unusual punishment.
He said, listening to you is cruel and unusual punishment.
I said, three months, go.
Sounds like a good sponsor.
Anyway, so yes, I did the, you know, three months and I came out and I was still, I mean,
I was as sober as I am right now physically, you know, I was completely cleaned out of
(44:18):
everything, you know, nothing stronger than caffeine in my body for three months.
And I came out and I mean, I ended up relapsing after just a couple of days really.
But then after that first time, you know, that's when I realized that there's more going
on than just, you know what I mean?
Because it's like when you, when you start using after having not used for a couple of
hours and you're sick, well, you can say that's because of the drug, you know, the whatever
(44:41):
you want to call it, you know, the phenomenon of craving and all the stuff that comes on
when the drugs are still flowing through your system.
But what happens when you have months and months of absence from the stuff and then you pick
right back up and say, well, there's, there's something else going on.
And yeah, it's hard.
It's hard to, to convince somebody that, you know, somebody who has not experienced it
themselves, right?
(45:02):
That, that the, you know, the alcohol is just a symbol of your problems, you know, the real,
the real disease centers in your brain, not your body.
And it's, I agree with Bob though, you know, if, if a family can, can, can do anything over
that time, it's not, don't put any hurdles in front of this person, you know, say we,
this is, this is a disease of guilt and shame.
I mean, we, we are the kings and queens of doing that to ourselves, you know, so we don't
(45:27):
need anything, you know, oh, but your aunt Molly loves the cookies you bake.
She wants to see like none of that crap, you know, just if this guy just wants to disappear
into his 12 step community or into, you know, whatever community for a couple of months
and then appear, pray that that is the case, you know, pray that that might happen.
I mean, you know, really keep expectations low.
(45:48):
You know, to answer your, your first question you said about like an active, that's a lot
harder, right?
You know, those situations are all going to be just case by case.
And I mean, you know, I've never had personal experience with a child, right?
Who is in active addiction.
So I think I never pretend to understand what say, you know, the media family or the parents
(46:12):
are going through.
You know, I can't, I can't imagine it.
I will say there is an incredible book, you know, it's in the realm of hungry ghosts.
You might have heard of it.
The Cabourmete wrote it.
You got a chapter at the end and it's talking precisely to families of a person who's actively
addicted.
And, and I think that if you read that chapter, you know, that that sums it up about as well
(46:35):
as I've heard anybody.
He's an addiction researcher.
He's still working the downtown, the side of Vancouver, which to my knowledge was the
only open air drug market that could rival Kensington, right?
So, you know, if you're familiar with Kensington, it's extremely like unique place.
Okay.
There's, I don't think there's anywhere else in this country at least that's quite
like it.
But this place is like that, right?
(46:56):
So, so he worked there, you know, it's, you know, a lot of folks who are not necessarily
trying to get sober.
I mean, they're just maybe trying to not die that day is kind of what the, what it boils
down to and he talks to family members, right?
Like what, what you can do because it's very, very hard for families.
Now, how do we discern or, and maybe there is no way, but if our loved one is in early
(47:21):
recovery from what is isolation, like, hey, I'm going to go sit in my room and I need
to be out of the room versus what is self care or working their program or how do you balance
that?
Because I think a lot of times loved ones, family members, like we start doing the over
scheduling and we're going to be with you all the time and we're going to hold your
(47:41):
hand through this.
Talk about that a little bit.
I can, I can recall back when, when, you know, I was first in the office and this recovery
process and those events came up, right?
Like the Speaker James or the Marathon meetings that, that took priority.
Like, because I had to put my recovery first and I remember, you know, family members being
(48:01):
disappointed that I wasn't going to make every single party.
But the reality is like as a loved one, the first, like, especially when you're new in
this process, like you, like we talk about the 90 meetings and 90 days and, you know,
the getting of the sponsor.
It's so important for the person who's, you know, beginning in this recovery process to
(48:24):
start like spreading their wings and really trying to get embedded into this, you know,
recovery world.
So like, you know, there's a healthy balance between like you talked about like, oh, you
know, over scheduling and also being understanding that like if there's something that's prioritized,
like whether, you know, it could be a commitment at a meeting, going to a meeting, maybe it's
(48:44):
just, maybe they just want to go and enjoy some time with their, with their fellowship
folks.
Like, because I remember there was times where we just wanted like, you know, six or seven
of my buddies, we just, we planned to do something for that weekend.
And so I just think you have to understand the importance of like allowing your loved
one who's engulfing into this recovery process to like allow them their space to try to do
that.
(49:05):
And, you know, yeah, just allow them to do that.
That's awesome.
Any last thoughts we have here as we wrap up?
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to add this.
One other point I think too that it's important is, is for the actual person who's trying
(49:26):
to not drink or use other drugs, is to make that kind of declaration in your head like
that day, they make it firm, right?
So you know, I was just talking to somebody recently and you know, everybody's experience
here is different.
I mean, my, my thing happened to be pretty kind of big news, right?
Everybody, my, all my family and friends kind of found out overnight, right?
(49:47):
So that took away, I wasn't telling anybody.
I mean, my stuff was very hidden, you know, in terms of, of, of what I was choosing to
tell people, right?
But then there was something that happened that kind of everybody found out overnight.
All right.
So, which was horrible at the time.
Now like looking back at what an advantage that is really, right?
Because you don't have to worry anymore.
Oh, what do I tell him?
(50:08):
What do I tell her?
How do I say this?
It's like everybody knew.
Okay.
Crap.
So that's not good.
But you know, now looking back, I think, okay, that's, that makes, that made it easier.
I'll talk to this woman.
So they, nobody really knows the, the her situation.
Now she, she, she drinks wine casually with them, right?
But then she'll do like the bottle before and the bottle after like in secret kind of thing.
(50:31):
And her problem is, is serious, but everybody doesn't know about it.
So, so she goes to this party and she says to, to them, like in the beginning she, she
had about 10 days sober at this point or something.
And she was saying, you know, guys, I, I, I'm really trying not to drink right now.
Okay.
I think she used those words.
I'm really trying not to drink right now.
(50:53):
That's about as firm as she, and, and you know, so the, maybe the first or second time
they brought the bottle out, she, she passed, right?
I'm trying not to drink right now.
And then as they were getting a little bit more tipsy, they offered it to her again,
like a little bit stronger.
And then she drank and then, you know, kind of set her off on this little spiral, right?
But I recommend people just be, be firm.
(51:16):
You know, it's, I mean, it's hard sometimes, but they, if it's alcohol, right?
I am not drinking.
That's it.
That's it.
Right?
Most people are not going to be pushing you like any more than that.
Do you want to drink?
No thank you.
Right?
So, you know, for the people who might not know that you're in recovery and say, oh,
what do I say when my friend asks me or want to, no thank you.
(51:39):
Most of the time that works, right?
It's like the majority of people aren't, aren't thinking enough about you to push on that
anymore.
Why are you drinking?
You have a, that my first sponsor too, he would say that if somebody would say to him,
why, do you have a problem with alcohol?
And you say, no, do you?
Yeah, that would be, he would have spin it back on.
This is, I mean, somebody who doesn't know his situation, somebody casual.
(52:02):
And people, you know, we really get like in our heads a lot about what do I say?
And yeah, most of the time I'm not drinking.
Hopefully as a culture we're getting better about not asking why, but they're in the stigma,
you know, is reducing, but it still exists.
But obviously just being able to say no or being able to say I'm in recovery can, can
(52:27):
solve a lot of problems.
And I'll just kind of end with, you know, I was doing a lot of reflecting, you know,
as the year end approaches.
And it's, you know, like I think back to early recovery and all those like uncomfortable decisions
that I made and did all those things that I necessarily didn't want to do, whether it
was those commitments and those, you know, the recovery house going there after, after
(52:50):
treatment.
And just like year over year incrementally.
And I don't know, like this year has just been like a huge milestone in so many areas,
like professionally, you know, relationship.
There's just a ton of things that have been happening over the last year, but like every
year I incrementally have seen growth and I, and I look back and I just think about like
how much clarity I've gained, how much self-awareness that I've gained just year over year by doing
(53:16):
those uncomfortable things and, you know, making some of those small sacrifices.
So, you know, if you're new to recovery, I just think it's important, like I said, just
for me, get to a meeting, put your hand up and get vulnerable and just introduce yourself
and allow people in whatever fellowship you choose to do to just support you through this
process.
That's good.
Bob, any last thoughts?
(53:38):
Sure.
So I guess kind of the backtrack a little bit, we were talking about what like the loved
one of a person in early recovery should like kind of be doing, like if you guys are going
to an event together and I just wanted to put out like I would have a conversation like
before you go about like, so let's say your person that's in early recovery is telling
(53:59):
you, hey, like there's a possibility that I might feel uncomfortable here and I might
want to leave early.
So if you're not in a place where you're okay with that, like if you're like, well, no,
this is my family and I really want to be there.
I don't want to have to leave.
That's fine.
Just figure out a way that you guys can leave separately then.
Like have an alternative plan if you're not ready to go when they are.
(54:19):
And if you do decide like, hey, like whenever you feel uncomfortable, we'll get out of there.
Like I'm here to support you.
If that's the route that you choose to take, when they do bring it up, like don't fight
them.
You know what I mean?
Like stick to like what you actually said.
But once again, like there's always like options.
If you're not comfortable with leaving early, then just find a way that they can get out
of safely separately.
(54:40):
If that's what you have to do.
Bob, Kevin, Jeff.
Thank you so much for being with us today.
This has been really, really powerful stuff and great information for families and those
in recovery.
So appreciate your time and your willingness to do this.
We typically end with favorite recovery quote, but since it's the holidays, favorite holiday
(55:02):
song.
Favorite holiday song.
Do you have one?
For me, it's like that.
I don't even know what it's called.
I just like the Siberian orchestra song.
Oh yeah, that's good.
I want to go to one of those concerts.
I don't know if I could handle a 90 minute of it though.
I love it.
I like it.
(55:23):
I'm going to have to try.
I'm going to go with Mariah Carey.
All I want for Christmas.
Oh, classic.
We got to end it right there.
I can't think of a song.
I will say show Christmas Carol.
You know, we're going to see Christmas Carol at the Waunau Theater tomorrow.
I'm super excited for that.
I'm sure it will break out some songs as well.
Just that whole idea, right?
(55:44):
The whole redemption story.
I'm a sucker for it though.
Thank you so much.
Thank you listeners for joining us today.
If you or someone you know needs help, please call 1-833-RCA-ALUMN.
There are people like Kevin, Bob, standing by, Jeff to help you or your loved one access
(56:04):
care.
Thank you.
Join us next time.
Thank you for listening to the Strength and Recovery podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please tap the subscribe button and leave us a review.
(56:24):
We love hearing from our listeners and hope to reach more of you out there as we continue
to share these incredible stories of recovery.
The RCA alumni team aims to provide a safe, supportive environment for those in the recovery
community regardless of their affiliation with RCA.
We host a full calendar of virtual and in-person meetings seven days a week, 365 days a year,
(56:51):
as well as free sober events every month.
To learn more about what we do, find us at rcaalumni.com.
Remember, if you or a loved one is struggling with addiction, pick up the phone and dial
1-833-RCA-ALUMN.
Help is available 24-7.
(57:13):
Listen to another episode now or join us next time for the Strength and Recovery podcast.
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