October 29, 2025 • 45 mins
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Sacred land, contested memory, and a centuries-long fight for sovereignty, this conversation with Dr. Garrey Dennie traces the deep antiquity of the Kalinago in St. Vincent, their transformation into a maritime powerhouse, and the strategic choices that delayed European domination for generations. Instead of a single “first contact,” we explore two: the catastrophic arrival of Europeans and the liberatory meeting of Kalinago communities with Africans who escaped or were freed from bondage.
Dr. Dennie unpacks genocide as a 300-year process, where pathogens, forced labor, and scorched-earth campaigns worked in tandem to clear land for sugar and slavery. He explains how the union that produced the Garifuna did more than build solidarity; it created a hybrid identity with immunological resilience that helped communities survive. From the First and Second Carib Wars to the brutal detention on Baliceaux and the mass exile of 1797, we follow the pivotal moments that transformed St. Vincent and, paradoxically, shortened its time as a British slave society through relentless resistance.
We also step inside a landmark scholarly effort: the forthcoming multi-volume Native Genocide and African Enslavement in St. Vincent and the Grenadines. He is one of four Vincentian historians co-authoring the series that restores Indigenous and Garifuna perspectives to the center, bridges archaeology and epidemiology with political history, and invites listeners to reconsider where homeland and belonging truly reside. If you’re ready to move beyond textbook myths and confront the intertwined stories of survival, identity, and power, this episode offers a clear, compelling path forward.
Dr. Garrey Dennie is an Associate Professor of History at St. Mary’s College of Maryland and a founder of its Program in African and African Diaspora Studies. He obtained his first degree at the University of the West Indies, Cave Hill and his Ph. D at The Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Dennie has also lectured at the University of the West Indies at the Mona campus in Jamaica. Dr. Dennie has produced and published original scholarship on the politics of death in modern South Africa. And in the greatest privilege of his life, Dr. Dennie served as a speechwriter for Nelson Mandela in the battle to destroy white rule in apartheid South Africa.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, Alexandra Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello, Mom Waguan.
(00:22):
Welcome back to another episodeof Strictly Facts, a guide to
Caribbean history and culture.
I'm Alexandra Miller, and asalways, tremendously excited to
bring to the fore more storiesof Caribbean history and culture
that I believe with greaterawareness would make us stronger
as a people, especially whenthese topics are supported and
you know underscored by new andupcoming research being
(00:45):
published.
And so that is definitely thecase for today's episode.
A while back, we discussed theGarfuna, a group of people that
are descended from the unity ofenslaved Africans and indigenous
Kalingos in St.
Vincent and the Grenadines, andwho were exiled off their lands,
(01:06):
as we talked about from theBritish Empire as a result of
the Carib Wars, and they laterrelocated to places like Belize
and Honduras, etc.
And I'm sure we'll get more intoit today.
But our last conversationlargely explored the periods
after their exile and how thisgroup has maintained their
identity through migration,racial politics, and culture.
(01:28):
Today, however, we are focusingon the history of St.
Vincent's original indigenouspopulation, the Kalingos, and
their cultural fight beforeexile in 1797.
And so joining me to share thisresearch is Dr.
Gary Denny, Associate Professorof History at St.
Mary's College of Maryland.
(01:48):
Thank you so much for joining usfor this episode, Dr.
Denny.
Before we kick off and talkingabout the Klingos, why don't you
allow our listeners to know alittle bit more about you?
Of course, where is near anddear to you in the Caribbean,
and what really inspired yourresearch in Black history and
Caribbean history and yourvaried work, as I know, in Black
(02:11):
liberation movements?
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
That's a kind of cheeky question in some ways and
easier in other ways.
As a Caribbean man, um, as ahistorian, there is a sense in
which doing the history of theCaribbean becomes intuitive
because we want to understandthe world within which we live
(02:36):
and the means through which thatunderstanding can allow us to
shape how we then navigate, youknow, and produce a different
kind of um you know experiencefor our people.
Um, so in that sense, the roleof the criminal historian is
both as a scholar to make senseof the past, but also as an
(03:00):
architect of the future, whichis to say um how do we use this
knowledge in a way to um giveour people a platform within
which they can construct forthemselves a history different
from the brutalities that wehave experienced.
So, in that sense, you know, ifyou if you do a you know a
degree in in history, as I didat K-Vail at the University of
(03:23):
the West Indies, there's alwaysa kind of intuitive momentum
towards seeking to make sense ofthe Caribbean.
But at the same time, it is alsotrue that in the specific
instance of becoming a trainedhistorian, which is different
from um that innate desire toknow the Caribbean past, a
(03:44):
trained historian means that youhave to go through the processes
of disciplinary training throughwhich we create knowledge and
have that knowledge evaluated byour peers and become um you know
experts in the field of theproduction of knowledge.
In my instance, I began a PhDprogram with focusing on the
(04:09):
history of South Africa.
And so my PhD is in Africanhistory, and the specific focus
of my study, my dissertation,and my first sets of
publications had to do withSouth Africa.
And it is true that theliberation movement in South
Africa was an essential part ofmy experience because in that
(04:31):
process, I also became um, youknow, uh a speechwriter for
Nelson Mandela at the momentthat apartheid was fracturing.
I was there in the trenches, Ilike to say these days, taking
part in that.
Um you know what was a titanicstruggle to end white supremacy,
in the most brutal form of whitesupremacy in the world at the
(04:52):
time.
But the desire to do Caribbeanhistory and to return to
Caribbean history, um, I wasactually telling my daughter
Nika this morning about thathistory, its trajectory.
That what happened is that um inthe beginning of the 21st
century, St.
Vincent and the Guananineselevated Chateer, Joseph
(05:13):
Chateier, to the position of ourfirst national hero.
So that was a very important uhmoment.
Okay, now aligned to that factis that the Gary Funa in Belize
saw this as this um pivotalmoment as well in their
belongingness to St.
Vincent.
And so you had a Gary Funa, Iwould say, pilgrimage, a return
(05:38):
to St.
Vincent, a reclamation of thatheritage.
And what was surprising to me asa trained historian and also as
a Vincentian who did a firstdegree at the University of the
West Indies in the 1980s and whodid a PhD at Johns Hopkins, that
I was unaware of a central partof the guy Funer's collective
(06:01):
memory.
That is, for the guy Funa, umSt.
Vincent was sacred land.
Whereas in the context of mybroader African diaspora
sensibilities, Africa was thesacred land.
And so that kind of gap betweenthe broad African diaspora sense
of Africa as the homeland andthe guy Funa sense of St.
(06:23):
Vincent as the homeland, thatgap and that fact that that
knowledge was absent from me wasyou know a kind of intellectual
shock and a psychological shock.
Okay, and and so that becameessentially the catalyst for
this um new departure point inmy own intellectual history to
(06:47):
make sense of the Gaifuna, tofocus on the Gaifuna, to focus
on St.
Vincent, and to be engaged in inthe research and presenting and
writing of Vincentian history.
That in a nutshell is how thatjourney unfolded.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
And one that I think is especially timely, as I've
mentioned, with an upcomingpublication of a multi-volume
work that you've really beenworking on with other Vincentian
historians with your support ofthe national government.
And this first volume is calledNative Genocide and African
Enslavement in St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.
And so just you know, to sort ofbring back to your point, right,
(07:24):
that you know, this awarenessnot only needs to be more deeply
studied, but one that, you know,we are doing the work within
ourselves, um, within ournations and our islands to do.
So thank you so much for that.
I think just to you know, toreally start, I think, is to
really understand where theKlingos had descended from when
(07:45):
we think of St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.
Um, they were able to also, youknow, prevent widespread
European colonization in St.
Vincent for quite some time.
And so could you sort of situateus historically on their origins
and some of that sort of moreintegral information before we
get into um some of the politicsof the colonization?
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
My preferred word is Kalinagos.
Um, that's my preferred word todescribe the um the first
peoples who arrived in St.
Vincent.
One of the ways to look at thishistory, both in the specifics
of St.
Vincent and um in the broadercontours of Caribbean history,
is that the occupation of theCaribbean, the transformation of
(08:29):
the Caribbean islands intoplaces fit for human habitation,
that process would have begunreally about 7,000 years ago
when we had people leaving SouthAmerica, basically it's
Venezuela, going across toTrinidad, which is the closest
point to Venezuela.
(08:49):
And then because the Caribbeanconstitutes an archipelago,
having the capacity to hop froman island to another over um
thousands of years.
One of the um instructive pointsabout that archipelago and the
geography of the Caribbeanislands is that once you are in
one island, okay, you have thecapacity to see another island.
(09:10):
And because of that geographicalfeature, it allows for um
travel, which would ultimatelyallow the first peoples to um to
colonize the Caribbean, youknow, 7,000 years ago, in the
instance of the first movementinto Trinidad.
And in the case of St.
Vincent, about 5,000 years ago,that they would have stayed for
about 2,000 years in Trinidadbefore they moved on further
(09:34):
into places like Grenada and St.
Vincent, and then of course headup the China Islands, you know,
to you know, whether it'sJamaica or Puerto Rico or the
Bahamas and so on.
Some would have migrated as wellfrom Central America.
But the first movement beganfrom South America into Trinidad
and coming out along thearchipelago of islands.
(09:56):
So, in the instance of St.
Vincent, the people that wewould call the Kalinago first
arrived about 5,000 years ago.
So they were the founders ofVincentian, you know, culture of
life, so to speak, a habit ofcivilization, where human beings
enter a land where no one was.
(10:17):
Absolutely virgin territory inthe truest sense of the word and
transformed it into an abode ofhuman habitation, the beginning
point 5,000 years ago.
SPEAKER_01 (10:28):
I'm fast-forwarding a little bit through time or
significantly through time,given that history.
But what were some of the youknow prevailing customs and you
know, sort of cultural identitymarkers as you're describing for
us, that made, you know, theKalinago central to, you know,
building up what we now know asSt.
Vincent and the Grenadines?
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
They would have left South America at least 3,000
years ago because they werereally fundamentally two waves.
The first wave was that of um,you know, hunter-gathering,
fishing people, and the secondwave was um that of agrarian um
people.
But broadly speaking, when theyleft South America as agrarian
people and they entered theCaribbean, they were transformed
(11:12):
into maritime people because theislands um impose a certain kind
of um control over your mode ofproduction, or you go about the
business of securing yourselfand your progeny and so on.
So the control of the seas, youknow, having access to fish,
developing um, you know, fishingtechniques and so on, this would
(11:35):
be very, very different from thelife that they would have
experienced in South America.
So I think it is crucial torecognize that there was a
transformative aspect.
But you also had somecontinuities with South American
um ancestral origins,particularly the place of
Cassava became a staple crop.
(11:55):
And so that remained fundamentalas part of how they um they got
to transform the central landinto a life-giving place for
planting food and so on.
And so you have a kind of ummixed economy that emerges in
St.
Vincent and across all theCaribbean Islands with a
maritime focus in significantways missing from the um from
(12:18):
the South American experience.
If you're looking for afundamental shift, it is that
maritime culture that emerges aspart of having to live within
these islands.
SPEAKER_01 (12:28):
There is that quick story that they give of Columbus
coming and you know, decimatingthe native populations and then
enslavement, right?
Um, but to really criticallyunderstand that indigenous
populations lived and you know,inhabited these lands for
thousands of years, I think isone that we don't always really
(12:48):
hear in a very integral way, asyou're you're putting it to us.
And so I'm I'm definitelygrateful for you sharing that
history um and hoping that itunderscores or helps to reshape
what we know about indigenouscommunities within the Caribbean
that even, you know, as we'retalking, still presently exist.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
I'm glad that you picked it up.
The antiquity of humanhabitation in the Caribbean is
something which has not reallywell been understood or
expressed in a manner that umrecognizes its its enormous
historic significance.
As a scholar in African historyand elsewhere, that notion that
(13:29):
antiquity is in and of itself,one might even say, a virtue of
the human presence elsewhere isdeeply acknowledged, whether one
is looking at um at theemergence of Egyptian
civilization or Sumeriancivilization and all of these um
places that that go back forthousands of years.
But within the Caribbean, inTrinidad, in St.
Vincent and elsewhere, we havehad human um presence there that
(13:54):
go back thousands of yearsbefore Europeans arrived.
And and the the legacies of thatum you know, extended presence
remain with us, even though, ofcourse, um, you know, the the
arrival of Columbus wouldcorrupt the trajectory of the
history which had unfolded overthousands of years before those
ships came in from Spain.
SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
On that point, because I think it it definitely
gets to obviously what is key inthis upcoming volume that you're
a part of is this factor ofgenocide and what happens
several thousand years laterwhen these native indigenous
communities do come in contactwith European settlers.
Um, and so could you sort ofwalk us through what that first
(14:36):
contact looked like, as well as,you know, as a result of that
first contact with Europeans,what the first contact with
enslaved Africans also lookedlike for these indigenous
communities, and what were sortof the consequences as a result?
SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
Wonderful.
You did two things there, whichis often missed.
Usually, when people speak offirst contact, um, they think of
it in the context of Europeansand indigenous peoples in
America.
But in fact, as you recognize,there's actually two first
contacts.
There's one involving Europeansand indigenous peoples, but
(15:12):
there's also another equallyimportant involving indigenous
peoples and Africans.
And in St.
Vincent in particular, thatdouble kind of phenomena is of
central importance in trying toum, you know, make sense of the
Vincenzian historicalexperience.
But as to the issue of genocidein particular, there are two
(15:33):
other elements which need to benoted.
The European arrival in theCaribbean is genocidal in and of
itself.
And that is because theassurance which the oceans
provided, the Atlantic Oceanprovided an assurance of
protection from um thepathogenic danger that you know
Europeans represented.
(15:54):
Okay, so absent, you know,Columbus crossing um the ocean,
then Europeans pathogens remainin Europe.
Okay, Columbus arrives, andthose pathogens that come with
Columbus, they are automaticallya tremendous threat to
indigenous peoples.
If we want um a modern-dayanalogy, all we have to do is to
(16:15):
look at the COVID experience.
That um a new pathogen emerges,and a new pathogen emerges, and
it's a threat to global healthbecause we do not have an
immunological um you know memoryof this disease.
And hence, you know, lots of usbecome deeply susceptible, and
um, some of us died, millionsdied as a consequence of this
(16:37):
exposure to a pathogen humanbeings had never been exposed to
before.
We have to multiply that, youknow, you know, 10,000 times to
understand the impact ofColumbus's arrival here in
America's.
Okay, it became essentially massmurder.
You know, it's genocidal,millions were dying.
So even without intentionality,and we're gonna have to uh
(16:57):
impose intentionality into thatframework, but even without
intentionality, the very arrivalof Europeans here was a
pathogenic um you know nightmarefor the indigenous peoples.
But the intentionality alsoexisted, which is to say that
Columbus set out to enslave andto rape and pillage and to do
all these awful things.
And from the moment, you know,there's this deliberate effort
(17:19):
to enslave, to pillage, to rape,and all of these things, that
too enhances or intensifies thepathogenic um genocidal
consequence of Columbus andcompany arrival here.
And that would continue forseveral hundred years, it didn't
simply stop, okay.
And that is particularlyimportant in the context of St.
(17:40):
Vincent and the Grenadinesbecause the Caribbean Sea is one
of the um largest seas in theworld.
It's nearly a thousand milesbetween a place like St.
Vincent and Puerto Rico.
Columbus arrived in the NorthernCaribbean first, and so the
effort to seize control ofCaribbean Islands began in the
(18:03):
Northern Caribbean first.
And indigenous peoples from St.
Vincent, Dominica, and elsewhereactually traveled that distance
in the 1500s to engage in thebattle to stop that aggression
launched by Europeans againsttheir indigenous brothers and
sisters in the north, and in sodoing, it also delayed the
(18:28):
penetration of European presencein the southern Caribbean.
So, what that meant is that thethe genocide proceeded in stages
geographically andchronologically, the northern
Caribbean first, and we'relooking at the 1500s and the
1600s, but it's moving southwardto enter the Southern Caribbean,
(18:52):
and they're being fought everystep of the way by indigenous
peoples, and so that ultimately,okay, by the time the British
arrive in St.
Vincent and defeat the Garifunain battle in 1797, that is the
final battle of a 300-yearstruggle to prevent European
(19:12):
penetration and you know towithstand the threat of
genocide.
So the genocidal onslaught is a300-year onslaught, and it is
episodic in terms of whichspecific island or group of
islands have to confront thisreality.
And so St.
Vincent becomes the lastbattleground because the seas
are provided, in part, a defensea thousand miles away, but also
(19:35):
the heroic resistance on thepart of indigenous peoples,
first the Kalinago, and thenthat um the Gaipuna will become
the union of Kalinago andAfrican peoples.
Um that guaranteed that genocidewould sweep across the Caribbean
um more slowly than it otherwisemight have done.
(19:58):
But it makes sense to see thegenocidal um process as a
300-year process.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
At the end there, you touched on the union of the
Kalinago and enslaved Africansin terms of what then becomes
the Garafuna.
So, do you also want to share umwhat this first contact between
the Kalinago and the Africansduring this time was like?
SPEAKER_00 (20:20):
Excellent, because it's the gateway for the early
question on first contact,recognizing that there are two
first contacts.
The first when the European isgenocidal, the second one the
Africans is not, and that isinteresting.
Okay, it's interesting in thisregard.
We have evidence of the Carinagopeople engaging these battles
(20:43):
with the um Spaniards and othersin the 1500s.
We also have evidence that insome cases where Africans had
been um enslaved by theSpaniards, that they were, for
me, um, liberated by Kalinagopeople and taken to places like
St.
Vincent and Dominican elsewhere.
So the first contact within theCaribbean between the Kalinago
(21:07):
people and Africans was an actof liberation, of freeing them
from Spanish monacles where theywere under the control of
Spanish slaveholders.
And so, as a social andpolitical act, that is that is
what we see.
Um, what is also true, however,is that it also meant that the
(21:30):
processes of the exchange ofgenes between Africans and
indigenous peoples and equipmentwould have begun in the 1500s.
So new hybridized populations umwould come into existence um
slowly at first, and it wouldaccelerate over time.
What is crucial here is this thethreat which Europeans pathogens
(21:55):
presented to indigenous peoples,that threat was far less CVM in
the instance of Africans.
And the reason for this is thatAfrica, Europe, and Asia
constituted a singleepidemiological zone because
it's it's contiguous turkey.
(22:16):
So over millennia, um, you know,people and pathogens would have
moved back and forth, producingthen similarities in the immune
capabilities of Africans,Asians, and Europeans.
And so what that meant is onceyou begin to have um Africans
producing children withindigenous peoples, you had the
(22:40):
transfer of Africanimmunological capabilities to
indigenous peoples.
Okay, and and so the consequenceof that is that it will begin to
offer protection for indigenouspeoples who would anarchise in
in the Northern Caribbean, butin the in the Southern
Caribbean, as this kind ofcontact multiplied and in St.
(23:02):
Vincent would ultimately producea dominant hybridized population
of Africans and indigenouspeoples, they would, in effect,
immunologically protectedagainst the further um you know
in roads of European diseases.
So, in that sense, I like tothink of it as um, you know, the
(23:24):
Kalinago people first liberatedAfricans from European
enslavement in the 1500s and soon.
And then Africans um, you know,gift to the Kalinago, so to
speak, was a genetic um legacywhich would um prevent them from
being completely wiped off themap by producing a new
hybridized population with animmune system much more capable
(23:48):
of resisting European pathogens.
SPEAKER_01 (23:50):
And this is what we now name as the Garafuna people.
So thank you so much for Ithink, you know, not only
presenting that history, but Ithink framing it in a way as
that liberation and the giftingback, I think is one that we
don't typically, you know, hear,not only here, but you know,
really understanding ways thatthese distinct communities built
(24:13):
bridges amongst themselves,particularly in St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.
Um, I think this point in thesort of lineage of what we're
talking about also brings us tothe Carib Wars, the first and
the second Carib War, which isobviously a rather complicated
history of you know, decades offighting um on behalf of, you
know, these indigenous andAfrican um and mixed communities
(24:36):
really wanting to maintain theirfreedom and ownership of their
land before you know this 1797point.
And so um, could you sort ofwalk us through not only the
wars briefly, but also I thinkit is a rather complicated
history.
You know, they are also exiledbefore even before exile,
(24:57):
they're put in concentrationcamps and various islands and
all of these things.
Um, and so how does this sort ofimpact um your study on this
mass genocide within St.
Vincent?
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
One of the benefits of recognizing genocide as a
300-year process is that um italso allows you to indicate
moments in time when you have uman acceleration of the genocidal
assault against the Caribbeanindigenous peoples.
(25:32):
You know, um when you modelgenocide um in the kind of um,
you know, the Germans killedIsraelis between 1939 and 1945,
and after that, the genocide isover.
And so you you have theirbeginning point and end point,
it's such a six-year process andso on.
That is not what took place inthe Caribbean.
Okay, what we have is a 300-yearsalt, and within that time frame
(25:54):
across these different islands,there are moments when the
genocide is accelerated based onthe specific context or
circumstances of time.
Okay, so when you're looking atSt.
Vincent, which had become um,you know, uh a refuge ultimately
in that um continuing battlebetween Europeans and indigenous
peoples, okay, and become one ofthe last, and ultimately the
(26:18):
final ground upon which thesebattles would be fought.
A pivotal moment arrives in umin 1763, um, because what that
um that has to do with theBritish and the French,
particularly deciding amongthemselves that the French, who
had passed 100 years, sought toobtain um indigenous acceptance
(26:39):
to enter St.
Vincent and set up their umsugar factories or different
types of um you knowagricultural um enterprises in
St.
Vincent and make their ownclaims that St.
Vincent belonged to them and soon.
By 1763, they they come to anunderstanding with the with the
British by treaty that um theFrench would give up any
(27:02):
pretense and any legal claimwithin European courts, let's
call it that a Europeaninternational law, you know, to
um to St.
Vincent as a French colonialpossession, and that this would
now be a land owned by theBritish.
Except there's a problem.
The problem is that the guyFunna Ayn St.
(27:23):
Vincent, and there's probablyabout 10,000 of them, and their
claims to sovereignty over St.
Vincent, that claim actuallywould have um been established
several hundred years beforeColumbus and company got to the
Caribbean in the first place.
(27:44):
So, from the perspective of theKalinago and then their Gaifuna
descendants, because we have tosee it as lineage from the
Kalinago to the Gaifuna, theyare the biological descendants
of the Kalinago.
Um, St.
Vincent is theirs.
Okay, and so what that meant isthat they understood that this
(28:05):
was a trap, the British presencewas a trap to their sovereignty.
So these kind wars, as um, youknow, some historians would call
them, um, we refer to them asthe wars of sovereignty, because
that is precisely what the um,you know, guy fooner um they're
fighting to preserve.
These are existential struggles,as we should see.
So there's a simplicity there ifwe recognize that the British
(28:27):
are making a claim to theownership of St.
Vincent, because they want tonow do to St.
Vincent what they have done toBarbados and St.
Lucia and Jamaica and all ofthese other places, transform
St.
Vincent into a slave society,make St.
Vincent part of this um, youknow, sugar revolution, sugar
and slaves.
Now, one has to understand thatSt.
(28:50):
Vincent um in the 1700s hadbecome a society with slaves.
That is to say, the British andthe French had already enslaved
Africans in St.
Vincent.
But simultaneously, the Garifunawere also exercising sovereignty
over St.
Vincent, and the Garifuna werenot slaves.
(29:12):
And so you have dual sovereigntyclaims being made, competing
sovereignty claims, those of theindigenous peoples, you know,
whose presence go back to 5,000years, whose biological um you
know antecedents go back to5,000 years.
And then you have the Britisharriving and saying, okay, we
and the French have come to anagreement that um this is now
(29:32):
exclusively ours.
And so the guy Funa um cannot beallowed to maintain the
rulership of St.
Vincent, their claims over land,and so on.
And the only way you could dothat is by war.
That's the only way.
And war is in and of itself noteven sufficient.
You have to continue the processof genocide, you have to remove
(29:55):
them from the land, you have tobanish them from St.
Vincent forever.
Because only in that sense wouldit be possible for this larger
British project of transformingSt.
Vincent into a slave society forBritish exploitation safely take
place.
And so it is in that contextthat you have an accelerated
(30:19):
genocide that takes place in St.
Vincent in those wars ofsovereignty between 1763 and
1797.
So that is essentially a 30-yearprocess.
And within that period, theBritish are saying, you know,
from time to time, we see thisin many of the official
documents, that what they needto do is to remove the guy Funa
(30:42):
from St.
Vincent completely, to denytheir patrimony in St.
Vincent, to deny theirindigenity to St.
Vincent, and hence legitimize intheir mind and whatever moral
codes that they claim forthemselves, that what they were
doing was perfectly legal,perfectly moral, and so on.
(31:03):
But within the context of theGuy Funa's history of Vincentian
habitation, this was a war forsovereignty, a war for their
existence.
And in 1797, when the war brokeout, the final um phase of that
war broke out in 1795, and um iscompleted most of it around
(31:26):
1797, which then says theBritish would exercise maximum
force, naval power, um, landpower, um, overwhelming um
combat power would be brought tothe battlefield to ultimately
overcome the indigenousresistance in St.
Vincent's sculpture policies,where you you kill men, women
(31:48):
and children, you starve them todeath.
You will do all of these thingsonly so that you could have
access to the land.
And then you ultimately have theround it up and depositing the
defeated Gaifuna in Bali Soul,where they took something over
4,000 plus and half died fromlack of water, lack of food.
So it was again, this is what Imean when I speak of the
(32:11):
accelerated genocide, thesedifferent phases of how genocide
proceeded within the Caribbean,and ultimately that banishment
from St.
Vincent into um Central America.
So the wars of sovereignty andthe genocide that unfolded, or
the accelerated genocide thatunfolded within those years,
(32:33):
were part of the matrix ofunderstandings that the British
constructed as to how totransform St.
Vincent into a slave society, itwould not be possible to do so
without first removing theGaifuna.
So, what this means is that thehistory of African enslavement
in St.
Vincent after um you know 1797or its transformation into slave
(32:57):
society was inextricably linkedto the history of the wars
between the Gaifuna and theBritish.
And the consequence of that isthat St.
Vincent became the very lastplace in the world, in the
British world, to be a slavesociety, hence, would spend the
shortest amount of time in theCaribbean, in the British
(33:19):
Caribbean as a slave society.
So, once more, that is the giftthat the indigenous peoples
would give to um African peoplesin the Caribbean, that they
shortened the time of slavery,they shortened the
transformation of St.
Vincent, they delayed thetransformation of St.
Vincent into slave society,where every single element of
that society was governed by theexploitation of African labor
(33:43):
for the purposes of profit.
SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
Bridging off that point, and you know, how you
outlined that there are thesethree claims that are being made
to the land itself.
Um, when we get to that point of1797, and you know, these
populations are being exiled,put in concentration camps,
etc., uh, there is a moment ofum kind of racial politics at
(34:08):
play when it's those who are,you know, more African
presenting in a sense, um, beingdefinitively cast out.
Whereas if you potentially hadmore, you know, indigenous
traits, to an extent, some ofthose peoples were more allowed
to remain on the island.
And so, could you sort of notefor us how this creates a sort
(34:30):
of relationship between this 300years of genocide, of slavery,
and the the relationship betweenthe two when we think about some
of these racial politicshappening?
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Well, um, excellent question.
One of the things we have toalways remind ourselves is that
the Europeans at the time, andthis is inclusive of the
British, their knowledge ofbiology was fundamentally
limited.
Genetics as a science didn'texist.
And so their capacity todistinguish between the Gaifuna
(35:03):
and the Kalinago, they wouldcall the Gaifuna the Black
Caribs, they would call theKalinago the Yellow Caribs, they
would maintain those frames ofdistinction throughout their
aggression against theindigenous um peoples in St.
Vincent.
Okay, so what they meant whenthey said Black Caribs is that
(35:23):
these were the union of Africanpeoples and indigenous peoples
who had produced um a sense ofthemselves as a specific
identity and um created thepolitical community, um,
exercised claims of sovereigntyand the capacity to resist
penetration by Europeans againstSt.
(35:45):
Vincent.
When they spoke and wrote of theYellow Caribs, okay, what they
said is that these are theindigenous peoples who were
there before Africans umentered, and that they
constituted a separate politicaland economic and cultural entity
and so on.
Now we have to be careful ofthose distinctions, okay, on two
(36:07):
grounds.
Because again, you know,Mendelian genetics, which the
British would never haveunderstood at the time, you
know, biological um, you know,advancement doesn't exist, okay,
would have meant, as Iindicated, from first contact
between Africans and indigenouspeoples in the 1500s, that
exchange of genes had alreadybegun to take place.
(36:29):
And so by this, by the 1700s,that exchange of genes would
have been 200 years plus old.
And the notion that you couldsomehow, by a person's features,
know who's pure Kalinago, thatnotion is nonsensical.
There is no such thing as a pureKalinago in the 1700s, not in an
island as small as St.
(36:50):
Vincent, where over generations,you know, men and women are you
know producing children, youknow, as men and women do.
But the where one lives andone's physical features um could
allow these physicalcharacteristics, you know,
that's how racism works.
The use of physicalcharacteristics, you know, to
(37:12):
denote a specific group and thenadd all kinds of um you know
characteristics to that group inall kinds of ways.
So the same process is at work,and in this instance, it is to
distinguish what they see as thegenuine threat to British um you
know dominance of St.
Vincent, the Kalinago peopleslash Black Arabs from those
(37:36):
whom they deem to be not asthreatening the Kalinago people
slash the uh the Yellow Caribs.
So Gaifuna slash Black Caribs,Kalinago slash um Yellow Caribs.
But these same Kalinago, whothey now call in the tame
people, were the ones who wereleading the fight in the 1500s
and the 1600s.
So all of a sudden they becometame.
(37:57):
Okay, it makes no sense.
The Gaifuna spoke the samelanguage, the culture was
identical, their fate wasidentical.
So for the Kalinago, this wastheir brothers, sisters,
cousins, ancestors, they hadbecome a unified people.
But political communities um youknow can be maintained or
(38:19):
created through divide and rulestrategies and so on.
And the smaller group of peoplewho may have identified
themselves as the so-called um,you know, yellow crimes in the
British terminology, um, theysaw as this lesser threat, and
hence they deemed those peoplesto be um capable of remaining,
(38:41):
but they were smaller numbers.
The vast majority of the peoplevanished from St.
Vincent.
And so there's a kind of umself-rationalizing that takes
place.
We will keep a smaller numbersand say that they're the yellow
Caribs, and we'll send away thevast number of people and call
them the Black Caribs.
But of course, these dreams ofthe Garavuna and the Kalinago
are all now intermixed in a waythat is has become
(39:03):
indistinguishable.
So we should see these as socialand political um you know
strategies on the part of theBritish to divide and rule
indigenous peoples of St.
Vincent and justify the massexpulsion of the vast majority
of Indigenous peoples on thebasis that they were not
indigenous.
SPEAKER_01 (39:20):
I think this is a tremendous conversation as
you've walked us through, um,just because it challenges some
of these more simplisticnotions, right?
Of genocide, of indigenoushistories, of sovereignty and
claims to these lands.
And so while I usually um inthese episodes ask for several,
(39:42):
you know, recommendations oftexts that are, you know, bring
together this history.
I think this volume that you andyour colleagues are working on,
or these set of volumes that arecoming out, um, will be
tremendous in helping us moredeeply understand the roots of
these histories, um particularlyfor St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.
And so with that, um I just wantto ask you from a author and
(40:07):
historian perspective, you'vebeen working on this, these
volumes, the first of which isdebuting shortly.
Um, what has it been like to notonly work on history of St.
Vincent as a Vincenzient, workon it alongside other ventrient
historians and your colleagues,um, and do so in ways that are
supported by the government?
(40:29):
Um, what has this collectiveprocess been like?
And how do you hope that thesevolumes really transform the
understandings for venture athome and abroad?
SPEAKER_00 (40:39):
Um, that's a wonderful question indeed.
Um, my my colleagues are topclass, um, Dr.
Asian Fraser, who actually um,you know, could reclaim, if he
so wishes, to be my intellectualfather, because he taught me in
high school and introduced me tothe um to the more rigorous way
to think of history, to beworking alongside um, you know,
(41:00):
Dr.
Fraser, um, who was my teacher,is an honor uh in and of itself.
Um, I'm also working alongsideDr.
Clee Scott, um, whose umencyclopedic knowledge and um
research capabilities, uh, youknow, and the history of St.
Vincent is clearly um unrivaled.
And he teaches at the Universityof West Indies, Kevil.
(41:22):
And Dr.
Thomas, um, you know, who isalso um he's been working in
this field um at least since the1970s.
So he has like a 50-year um, youknow, kind of um, you know,
anchor within the um researchand writing of the intention
historical um experience.
So against these men who have umspent decades of their lives um
(41:46):
you know developing this corpusof knowledge of St.
Vincent, um, I am humbled by theopportunity to work with them
and show that work, you know,offer some, I would say, you
know, my own kind of insights asto how we can think of this
material.
So it has been an exceedinglyproductive relationship in terms
(42:09):
of having to work alongsidethese fellow authors.
And um what it has also meant,however, as Vincentians, and in
part you you've got the answerthat you have an interpretive
posture, uh you know, um senseas to how we view the Vincentian
experience in a way that um youuh unlike to find elsewhere or
(42:32):
expressed in the same fashion.
So this is what is so crucialabout um doing the Vincentian
historical experience.
Because in history, we want to,um in terms of the Caribbean,
see where St.
Vincent fits into the broader umcontours of Caribbean history.
Yet simultaneously, we want tounderstand the specific um, you
(42:52):
know, elements of St.
Vincent, which give this um thishistory, you know, a
particularity that um that wesee now place else, because that
is part of the the the um thewhole project of you know of
understanding how historyunfolds.
You know, some things mayultimately be quite different.
So we want to have a you know tosee where St.
(43:13):
Vincent fits into that largelarger tapestry of the Caribbean
experience and so on.
And we're eternally grateful tothe government of St.
Vincent and the Grenadines forconceptualizing the idea that
the history of St.
Vincent ought to be um writtenand to choose to fund it as they
are doing.
(43:34):
So in all of these differentways, I am really um you know
very, very happy to be workingat this time in this field with
um with federal intentionalhistorians.
SPEAKER_01 (43:45):
Well, I am certainly looking forward to these series
of texts, I think, you know,again, to really transform um
that pre-colonial history,especially, I think is one that
is particularly interesting tome, just as, you know, for us to
understand that that our ourstories did not start with
Columbus, right?
(44:05):
As they're often simplified.
And so for us to have a deeperunderstanding of that
pre-colonial history and as wellthe connections that result
from, you know, these firstcontacts, especially between
enslaved Africans and indigenouscommunities.
And so with that, I will bringus to a close.
(44:26):
I hope our listeners who aretuned in are as excited for
these volumes as I am.
I will be sure to link, youknow, this first volume and the
subsequent ones for ourlisteners online on our website,
um, as well as across socialmedia.
So definitely be sure to keep aneye out for Native Genocide and
African enslavement in St.
Vincent and the Grenadines,published soon by Dr.
(44:49):
Denny and his colleagues, as hementioned.
I'm certainly looking forward toit.
Um, and I hope all of ourlisteners are as well.
And so, with that, thank you,Dr.
Denny, for sharing so much ofyour wisdom and experience with
us.
Um, and congrats, of course,again on this you know major
accomplishment for this firstset in the volumes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (45:09):
Thanks for tuning in to Strictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcast.comfor more information from each
episode.
Follow us at Strictly Facts Podon Instagram and Facebook and at
StrictlyFacts PD on Twitter.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, Alexandra Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics, and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello, Mom Waguan.
(00:22):
Welcome back to another episodeof Strictly Facts, a guide to
Caribbean history and culture.
I'm Alexandra Miller, and asalways, tremendously excited to
bring to the fore more storiesof Caribbean history and culture
that I believe with greaterawareness would make us stronger
as a people, especially whenthese topics are supported and
you know underscored by new andupcoming research being
(00:45):
published.
And so that is definitely thecase for today's episode.
A while back, we discussed theGarfuna, a group of people that
are descended from the unity ofenslaved Africans and indigenous
Kalingos in St.
Vincent and the Grenadines, andwho were exiled off their lands,
(01:06):
as we talked about from theBritish Empire as a result of
the Carib Wars, and they laterrelocated to places like Belize
and Honduras, etc.
And I'm sure we'll get more intoit today.
But our last conversationlargely explored the periods
after their exile and how thisgroup has maintained their
identity through migration,racial politics, and culture.
(01:28):
Today, however, we are focusingon the history of St.
Vincent's original indigenouspopulation, the Kalingos, and
their cultural fight beforeexile in 1797.
And so joining me to share thisresearch is Dr.
Gary Denny, Associate Professorof History at St.
Mary's College of Maryland.
(01:48):
Thank you so much for joining usfor this episode, Dr.
Denny.
Before we kick off and talkingabout the Klingos, why don't you
allow our listeners to know alittle bit more about you?
Of course, where is near anddear to you in the Caribbean,
and what really inspired yourresearch in Black history and
Caribbean history and yourvaried work, as I know, in Black
(02:11):
liberation movements?
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
That's a kind of cheeky question in some ways and
easier in other ways.
As a Caribbean man, um, as ahistorian, there is a sense in
which doing the history of theCaribbean becomes intuitive
because we want to understandthe world within which we live
(02:36):
and the means through which thatunderstanding can allow us to
shape how we then navigate, youknow, and produce a different
kind of um you know experiencefor our people.
Um, so in that sense, the roleof the criminal historian is
both as a scholar to make senseof the past, but also as an
(03:00):
architect of the future, whichis to say um how do we use this
knowledge in a way to um giveour people a platform within
which they can construct forthemselves a history different
from the brutalities that wehave experienced.
So, in that sense, you know, ifyou if you do a you know a
degree in in history, as I didat K-Vail at the University of
(03:23):
the West Indies, there's alwaysa kind of intuitive momentum
towards seeking to make sense ofthe Caribbean.
But at the same time, it is alsotrue that in the specific
instance of becoming a trainedhistorian, which is different
from um that innate desire toknow the Caribbean past, a
(03:44):
trained historian means that youhave to go through the processes
of disciplinary training throughwhich we create knowledge and
have that knowledge evaluated byour peers and become um you know
experts in the field of theproduction of knowledge.
In my instance, I began a PhDprogram with focusing on the
(04:09):
history of South Africa.
And so my PhD is in Africanhistory, and the specific focus
of my study, my dissertation,and my first sets of
publications had to do withSouth Africa.
And it is true that theliberation movement in South
Africa was an essential part ofmy experience because in that
(04:31):
process, I also became um, youknow, uh a speechwriter for
Nelson Mandela at the momentthat apartheid was fracturing.
I was there in the trenches, Ilike to say these days, taking
part in that.
Um you know what was a titanicstruggle to end white supremacy,
in the most brutal form of whitesupremacy in the world at the
(04:52):
time.
But the desire to do Caribbeanhistory and to return to
Caribbean history, um, I wasactually telling my daughter
Nika this morning about thathistory, its trajectory.
That what happened is that um inthe beginning of the 21st
century, St.
Vincent and the Guananineselevated Chateer, Joseph
(05:13):
Chateier, to the position of ourfirst national hero.
So that was a very important uhmoment.
Okay, now aligned to that factis that the Gary Funa in Belize
saw this as this um pivotalmoment as well in their
belongingness to St.
Vincent.
And so you had a Gary Funa, Iwould say, pilgrimage, a return
(05:38):
to St.
Vincent, a reclamation of thatheritage.
And what was surprising to me asa trained historian and also as
a Vincentian who did a firstdegree at the University of the
West Indies in the 1980s and whodid a PhD at Johns Hopkins, that
I was unaware of a central partof the guy Funer's collective
(06:01):
memory.
That is, for the guy Funa, umSt.
Vincent was sacred land.
Whereas in the context of mybroader African diaspora
sensibilities, Africa was thesacred land.
And so that kind of gap betweenthe broad African diaspora sense
of Africa as the homeland andthe guy Funa sense of St.
(06:23):
Vincent as the homeland, thatgap and that fact that that
knowledge was absent from me wasyou know a kind of intellectual
shock and a psychological shock.
Okay, and and so that becameessentially the catalyst for
this um new departure point inmy own intellectual history to
(06:47):
make sense of the Gaifuna, tofocus on the Gaifuna, to focus
on St.
Vincent, and to be engaged in inthe research and presenting and
writing of Vincentian history.
That in a nutshell is how thatjourney unfolded.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
And one that I think is especially timely, as I've
mentioned, with an upcomingpublication of a multi-volume
work that you've really beenworking on with other Vincentian
historians with your support ofthe national government.
And this first volume is calledNative Genocide and African
Enslavement in St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.
And so just you know, to sort ofbring back to your point, right,
(07:24):
that you know, this awarenessnot only needs to be more deeply
studied, but one that, you know,we are doing the work within
ourselves, um, within ournations and our islands to do.
So thank you so much for that.
I think just to you know, toreally start, I think, is to
really understand where theKlingos had descended from when
(07:45):
we think of St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.
Um, they were able to also, youknow, prevent widespread
European colonization in St.
Vincent for quite some time.
And so could you sort of situateus historically on their origins
and some of that sort of moreintegral information before we
get into um some of the politicsof the colonization?
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
My preferred word is Kalinagos.
Um, that's my preferred word todescribe the um the first
peoples who arrived in St.
Vincent.
One of the ways to look at thishistory, both in the specifics
of St.
Vincent and um in the broadercontours of Caribbean history,
is that the occupation of theCaribbean, the transformation of
(08:29):
the Caribbean islands intoplaces fit for human habitation,
that process would have begunreally about 7,000 years ago
when we had people leaving SouthAmerica, basically it's
Venezuela, going across toTrinidad, which is the closest
point to Venezuela.
(08:49):
And then because the Caribbeanconstitutes an archipelago,
having the capacity to hop froman island to another over um
thousands of years.
One of the um instructive pointsabout that archipelago and the
geography of the Caribbeanislands is that once you are in
one island, okay, you have thecapacity to see another island.
(09:10):
And because of that geographicalfeature, it allows for um
travel, which would ultimatelyallow the first peoples to um to
colonize the Caribbean, youknow, 7,000 years ago, in the
instance of the first movementinto Trinidad.
And in the case of St.
Vincent, about 5,000 years ago,that they would have stayed for
about 2,000 years in Trinidadbefore they moved on further
(09:34):
into places like Grenada and St.
Vincent, and then of course headup the China Islands, you know,
to you know, whether it'sJamaica or Puerto Rico or the
Bahamas and so on.
Some would have migrated as wellfrom Central America.
But the first movement beganfrom South America into Trinidad
and coming out along thearchipelago of islands.
(09:56):
So, in the instance of St.
Vincent, the people that wewould call the Kalinago first
arrived about 5,000 years ago.
So they were the founders ofVincentian, you know, culture of
life, so to speak, a habit ofcivilization, where human beings
enter a land where no one was.
(10:17):
Absolutely virgin territory inthe truest sense of the word and
transformed it into an abode ofhuman habitation, the beginning
point 5,000 years ago.
SPEAKER_01 (10:28):
I'm fast-forwarding a little bit through time or
significantly through time,given that history.
But what were some of the youknow prevailing customs and you
know, sort of cultural identitymarkers as you're describing for
us, that made, you know, theKalinago central to, you know,
building up what we now know asSt.
Vincent and the Grenadines?
SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
They would have left South America at least 3,000
years ago because they werereally fundamentally two waves.
The first wave was that of um,you know, hunter-gathering,
fishing people, and the secondwave was um that of agrarian um
people.
But broadly speaking, when theyleft South America as agrarian
people and they entered theCaribbean, they were transformed
(11:12):
into maritime people because theislands um impose a certain kind
of um control over your mode ofproduction, or you go about the
business of securing yourselfand your progeny and so on.
So the control of the seas, youknow, having access to fish,
developing um, you know, fishingtechniques and so on, this would
(11:35):
be very, very different from thelife that they would have
experienced in South America.
So I think it is crucial torecognize that there was a
transformative aspect.
But you also had somecontinuities with South American
um ancestral origins,particularly the place of
Cassava became a staple crop.
(11:55):
And so that remained fundamentalas part of how they um they got
to transform the central landinto a life-giving place for
planting food and so on.
And so you have a kind of ummixed economy that emerges in
St.
Vincent and across all theCaribbean Islands with a
maritime focus in significantways missing from the um from
(12:18):
the South American experience.
If you're looking for afundamental shift, it is that
maritime culture that emerges aspart of having to live within
these islands.
SPEAKER_01 (12:28):
There is that quick story that they give of Columbus
coming and you know, decimatingthe native populations and then
enslavement, right?
Um, but to really criticallyunderstand that indigenous
populations lived and you know,inhabited these lands for
thousands of years, I think isone that we don't always really
(12:48):
hear in a very integral way, asyou're you're putting it to us.
And so I'm I'm definitelygrateful for you sharing that
history um and hoping that itunderscores or helps to reshape
what we know about indigenouscommunities within the Caribbean
that even, you know, as we'retalking, still presently exist.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
I'm glad that you picked it up.
The antiquity of humanhabitation in the Caribbean is
something which has not reallywell been understood or
expressed in a manner that umrecognizes its its enormous
historic significance.
As a scholar in African historyand elsewhere, that notion that
(13:29):
antiquity is in and of itself,one might even say, a virtue of
the human presence elsewhere isdeeply acknowledged, whether one
is looking at um at theemergence of Egyptian
civilization or Sumeriancivilization and all of these um
places that that go back forthousands of years.
But within the Caribbean, inTrinidad, in St.
Vincent and elsewhere, we havehad human um presence there that
(13:54):
go back thousands of yearsbefore Europeans arrived.
And and the the legacies of thatum you know, extended presence
remain with us, even though, ofcourse, um, you know, the the
arrival of Columbus wouldcorrupt the trajectory of the
history which had unfolded overthousands of years before those
ships came in from Spain.
SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
On that point, because I think it it definitely
gets to obviously what is key inthis upcoming volume that you're
a part of is this factor ofgenocide and what happens
several thousand years laterwhen these native indigenous
communities do come in contactwith European settlers.
Um, and so could you sort ofwalk us through what that first
(14:36):
contact looked like, as well as,you know, as a result of that
first contact with Europeans,what the first contact with
enslaved Africans also lookedlike for these indigenous
communities, and what were sortof the consequences as a result?
SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
Wonderful.
You did two things there, whichis often missed.
Usually, when people speak offirst contact, um, they think of
it in the context of Europeansand indigenous peoples in
America.
But in fact, as you recognize,there's actually two first
contacts.
There's one involving Europeansand indigenous peoples, but
(15:12):
there's also another equallyimportant involving indigenous
peoples and Africans.
And in St.
Vincent in particular, thatdouble kind of phenomena is of
central importance in trying toum, you know, make sense of the
Vincenzian historicalexperience.
But as to the issue of genocidein particular, there are two
(15:33):
other elements which need to benoted.
The European arrival in theCaribbean is genocidal in and of
itself.
And that is because theassurance which the oceans
provided, the Atlantic Oceanprovided an assurance of
protection from um thepathogenic danger that you know
Europeans represented.
(15:54):
Okay, so absent, you know,Columbus crossing um the ocean,
then Europeans pathogens remainin Europe.
Okay, Columbus arrives, andthose pathogens that come with
Columbus, they are automaticallya tremendous threat to
indigenous peoples.
If we want um a modern-dayanalogy, all we have to do is to
(16:15):
look at the COVID experience.
That um a new pathogen emerges,and a new pathogen emerges, and
it's a threat to global healthbecause we do not have an
immunological um you know memoryof this disease.
And hence, you know, lots of usbecome deeply susceptible, and
um, some of us died, millionsdied as a consequence of this
(16:37):
exposure to a pathogen humanbeings had never been exposed to
before.
We have to multiply that, youknow, you know, 10,000 times to
understand the impact ofColumbus's arrival here in
America's.
Okay, it became essentially massmurder.
You know, it's genocidal,millions were dying.
So even without intentionality,and we're gonna have to uh
(16:57):
impose intentionality into thatframework, but even without
intentionality, the very arrivalof Europeans here was a
pathogenic um you know nightmarefor the indigenous peoples.
But the intentionality alsoexisted, which is to say that
Columbus set out to enslave andto rape and pillage and to do
all these awful things.
And from the moment, you know,there's this deliberate effort
(17:19):
to enslave, to pillage, to rape,and all of these things, that
too enhances or intensifies thepathogenic um genocidal
consequence of Columbus andcompany arrival here.
And that would continue forseveral hundred years, it didn't
simply stop, okay.
And that is particularlyimportant in the context of St.
(17:40):
Vincent and the Grenadinesbecause the Caribbean Sea is one
of the um largest seas in theworld.
It's nearly a thousand milesbetween a place like St.
Vincent and Puerto Rico.
Columbus arrived in the NorthernCaribbean first, and so the
effort to seize control ofCaribbean Islands began in the
(18:03):
Northern Caribbean first.
And indigenous peoples from St.
Vincent, Dominica, and elsewhereactually traveled that distance
in the 1500s to engage in thebattle to stop that aggression
launched by Europeans againsttheir indigenous brothers and
sisters in the north, and in sodoing, it also delayed the
(18:28):
penetration of European presencein the southern Caribbean.
So, what that meant is that thethe genocide proceeded in stages
geographically andchronologically, the northern
Caribbean first, and we'relooking at the 1500s and the
1600s, but it's moving southwardto enter the Southern Caribbean,
(18:52):
and they're being fought everystep of the way by indigenous
peoples, and so that ultimately,okay, by the time the British
arrive in St.
Vincent and defeat the Garifunain battle in 1797, that is the
final battle of a 300-yearstruggle to prevent European
(19:12):
penetration and you know towithstand the threat of
genocide.
So the genocidal onslaught is a300-year onslaught, and it is
episodic in terms of whichspecific island or group of
islands have to confront thisreality.
And so St.
Vincent becomes the lastbattleground because the seas
are provided, in part, a defensea thousand miles away, but also
(19:35):
the heroic resistance on thepart of indigenous peoples,
first the Kalinago, and thenthat um the Gaipuna will become
the union of Kalinago andAfrican peoples.
Um that guaranteed that genocidewould sweep across the Caribbean
um more slowly than it otherwisemight have done.
(19:58):
But it makes sense to see thegenocidal um process as a
300-year process.
SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
At the end there, you touched on the union of the
Kalinago and enslaved Africansin terms of what then becomes
the Garafuna.
So, do you also want to share umwhat this first contact between
the Kalinago and the Africansduring this time was like?
SPEAKER_00 (20:20):
Excellent, because it's the gateway for the early
question on first contact,recognizing that there are two
first contacts.
The first when the European isgenocidal, the second one the
Africans is not, and that isinteresting.
Okay, it's interesting in thisregard.
We have evidence of the Carinagopeople engaging these battles
(20:43):
with the um Spaniards and othersin the 1500s.
We also have evidence that insome cases where Africans had
been um enslaved by theSpaniards, that they were, for
me, um, liberated by Kalinagopeople and taken to places like
St.
Vincent and Dominican elsewhere.
So the first contact within theCaribbean between the Kalinago
(21:07):
people and Africans was an actof liberation, of freeing them
from Spanish monacles where theywere under the control of
Spanish slaveholders.
And so, as a social andpolitical act, that is that is
what we see.
Um, what is also true, however,is that it also meant that the
(21:30):
processes of the exchange ofgenes between Africans and
indigenous peoples and equipmentwould have begun in the 1500s.
So new hybridized populations umwould come into existence um
slowly at first, and it wouldaccelerate over time.
What is crucial here is this thethreat which Europeans pathogens
(21:55):
presented to indigenous peoples,that threat was far less CVM in
the instance of Africans.
And the reason for this is thatAfrica, Europe, and Asia
constituted a singleepidemiological zone because
it's it's contiguous turkey.
(22:16):
So over millennia, um, you know,people and pathogens would have
moved back and forth, producingthen similarities in the immune
capabilities of Africans,Asians, and Europeans.
And so what that meant is onceyou begin to have um Africans
producing children withindigenous peoples, you had the
(22:40):
transfer of Africanimmunological capabilities to
indigenous peoples.
Okay, and and so the consequenceof that is that it will begin to
offer protection for indigenouspeoples who would anarchise in
in the Northern Caribbean, butin the in the Southern
Caribbean, as this kind ofcontact multiplied and in St.
(23:02):
Vincent would ultimately producea dominant hybridized population
of Africans and indigenouspeoples, they would, in effect,
immunologically protectedagainst the further um you know
in roads of European diseases.
So, in that sense, I like tothink of it as um, you know, the
(23:24):
Kalinago people first liberatedAfricans from European
enslavement in the 1500s and soon.
And then Africans um, you know,gift to the Kalinago, so to
speak, was a genetic um legacywhich would um prevent them from
being completely wiped off themap by producing a new
hybridized population with animmune system much more capable
(23:48):
of resisting European pathogens.
SPEAKER_01 (23:50):
And this is what we now name as the Garafuna people.
So thank you so much for Ithink, you know, not only
presenting that history, but Ithink framing it in a way as
that liberation and the giftingback, I think is one that we
don't typically, you know, hear,not only here, but you know,
really understanding ways thatthese distinct communities built
(24:13):
bridges amongst themselves,particularly in St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.
Um, I think this point in thesort of lineage of what we're
talking about also brings us tothe Carib Wars, the first and
the second Carib War, which isobviously a rather complicated
history of you know, decades offighting um on behalf of, you
know, these indigenous andAfrican um and mixed communities
(24:36):
really wanting to maintain theirfreedom and ownership of their
land before you know this 1797point.
And so um, could you sort ofwalk us through not only the
wars briefly, but also I thinkit is a rather complicated
history.
You know, they are also exiledbefore even before exile,
(24:57):
they're put in concentrationcamps and various islands and
all of these things.
Um, and so how does this sort ofimpact um your study on this
mass genocide within St.
Vincent?
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
One of the benefits of recognizing genocide as a
300-year process is that um italso allows you to indicate
moments in time when you have uman acceleration of the genocidal
assault against the Caribbeanindigenous peoples.
(25:32):
You know, um when you modelgenocide um in the kind of um,
you know, the Germans killedIsraelis between 1939 and 1945,
and after that, the genocide isover.
And so you you have theirbeginning point and end point,
it's such a six-year process andso on.
That is not what took place inthe Caribbean.
Okay, what we have is a 300-yearsalt, and within that time frame
(25:54):
across these different islands,there are moments when the
genocide is accelerated based onthe specific context or
circumstances of time.
Okay, so when you're looking atSt.
Vincent, which had become um,you know, uh a refuge ultimately
in that um continuing battlebetween Europeans and indigenous
peoples, okay, and become one ofthe last, and ultimately the
(26:18):
final ground upon which thesebattles would be fought.
A pivotal moment arrives in umin 1763, um, because what that
um that has to do with theBritish and the French,
particularly deciding amongthemselves that the French, who
had passed 100 years, sought toobtain um indigenous acceptance
(26:39):
to enter St.
Vincent and set up their umsugar factories or different
types of um you knowagricultural um enterprises in
St.
Vincent and make their ownclaims that St.
Vincent belonged to them and soon.
By 1763, they they come to anunderstanding with the with the
British by treaty that um theFrench would give up any
(27:02):
pretense and any legal claimwithin European courts, let's
call it that a Europeaninternational law, you know, to
um to St.
Vincent as a French colonialpossession, and that this would
now be a land owned by theBritish.
Except there's a problem.
The problem is that the guyFunna Ayn St.
(27:23):
Vincent, and there's probablyabout 10,000 of them, and their
claims to sovereignty over St.
Vincent, that claim actuallywould have um been established
several hundred years beforeColumbus and company got to the
Caribbean in the first place.
(27:44):
So, from the perspective of theKalinago and then their Gaifuna
descendants, because we have tosee it as lineage from the
Kalinago to the Gaifuna, theyare the biological descendants
of the Kalinago.
Um, St.
Vincent is theirs.
Okay, and so what that meant isthat they understood that this
(28:05):
was a trap, the British presencewas a trap to their sovereignty.
So these kind wars, as um, youknow, some historians would call
them, um, we refer to them asthe wars of sovereignty, because
that is precisely what the um,you know, guy fooner um they're
fighting to preserve.
These are existential struggles,as we should see.
So there's a simplicity there ifwe recognize that the British
(28:27):
are making a claim to theownership of St.
Vincent, because they want tonow do to St.
Vincent what they have done toBarbados and St.
Lucia and Jamaica and all ofthese other places, transform
St.
Vincent into a slave society,make St.
Vincent part of this um, youknow, sugar revolution, sugar
and slaves.
Now, one has to understand thatSt.
(28:50):
Vincent um in the 1700s hadbecome a society with slaves.
That is to say, the British andthe French had already enslaved
Africans in St.
Vincent.
But simultaneously, the Garifunawere also exercising sovereignty
over St.
Vincent, and the Garifuna werenot slaves.
(29:12):
And so you have dual sovereigntyclaims being made, competing
sovereignty claims, those of theindigenous peoples, you know,
whose presence go back to 5,000years, whose biological um you
know antecedents go back to5,000 years.
And then you have the Britisharriving and saying, okay, we
and the French have come to anagreement that um this is now
(29:32):
exclusively ours.
And so the guy Funa um cannot beallowed to maintain the
rulership of St.
Vincent, their claims over land,and so on.
And the only way you could dothat is by war.
That's the only way.
And war is in and of itself noteven sufficient.
You have to continue the processof genocide, you have to remove
(29:55):
them from the land, you have tobanish them from St.
Vincent forever.
Because only in that sense wouldit be possible for this larger
British project of transformingSt.
Vincent into a slave society forBritish exploitation safely take
place.
And so it is in that contextthat you have an accelerated
(30:19):
genocide that takes place in St.
Vincent in those wars ofsovereignty between 1763 and
1797.
So that is essentially a 30-yearprocess.
And within that period, theBritish are saying, you know,
from time to time, we see thisin many of the official
documents, that what they needto do is to remove the guy Funa
(30:42):
from St.
Vincent completely, to denytheir patrimony in St.
Vincent, to deny theirindigenity to St.
Vincent, and hence legitimize intheir mind and whatever moral
codes that they claim forthemselves, that what they were
doing was perfectly legal,perfectly moral, and so on.
(31:03):
But within the context of theGuy Funa's history of Vincentian
habitation, this was a war forsovereignty, a war for their
existence.
And in 1797, when the war brokeout, the final um phase of that
war broke out in 1795, and um iscompleted most of it around
(31:26):
1797, which then says theBritish would exercise maximum
force, naval power, um, landpower, um, overwhelming um
combat power would be brought tothe battlefield to ultimately
overcome the indigenousresistance in St.
Vincent's sculpture policies,where you you kill men, women
(31:48):
and children, you starve them todeath.
You will do all of these thingsonly so that you could have
access to the land.
And then you ultimately have theround it up and depositing the
defeated Gaifuna in Bali Soul,where they took something over
4,000 plus and half died fromlack of water, lack of food.
So it was again, this is what Imean when I speak of the
(32:11):
accelerated genocide, thesedifferent phases of how genocide
proceeded within the Caribbean,and ultimately that banishment
from St.
Vincent into um Central America.
So the wars of sovereignty andthe genocide that unfolded, or
the accelerated genocide thatunfolded within those years,
(32:33):
were part of the matrix ofunderstandings that the British
constructed as to how totransform St.
Vincent into a slave society, itwould not be possible to do so
without first removing theGaifuna.
So, what this means is that thehistory of African enslavement
in St.
Vincent after um you know 1797or its transformation into slave
(32:57):
society was inextricably linkedto the history of the wars
between the Gaifuna and theBritish.
And the consequence of that isthat St.
Vincent became the very lastplace in the world, in the
British world, to be a slavesociety, hence, would spend the
shortest amount of time in theCaribbean, in the British
(33:19):
Caribbean as a slave society.
So, once more, that is the giftthat the indigenous peoples
would give to um African peoplesin the Caribbean, that they
shortened the time of slavery,they shortened the
transformation of St.
Vincent, they delayed thetransformation of St.
Vincent into slave society,where every single element of
that society was governed by theexploitation of African labor
(33:43):
for the purposes of profit.
SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
Bridging off that point, and you know, how you
outlined that there are thesethree claims that are being made
to the land itself.
Um, when we get to that point of1797, and you know, these
populations are being exiled,put in concentration camps,
etc., uh, there is a moment ofum kind of racial politics at
(34:08):
play when it's those who are,you know, more African
presenting in a sense, um, beingdefinitively cast out.
Whereas if you potentially hadmore, you know, indigenous
traits, to an extent, some ofthose peoples were more allowed
to remain on the island.
And so, could you sort of notefor us how this creates a sort
(34:30):
of relationship between this 300years of genocide, of slavery,
and the the relationship betweenthe two when we think about some
of these racial politicshappening?
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Well, um, excellent question.
One of the things we have toalways remind ourselves is that
the Europeans at the time, andthis is inclusive of the
British, their knowledge ofbiology was fundamentally
limited.
Genetics as a science didn'texist.
And so their capacity todistinguish between the Gaifuna
(35:03):
and the Kalinago, they wouldcall the Gaifuna the Black
Caribs, they would call theKalinago the Yellow Caribs, they
would maintain those frames ofdistinction throughout their
aggression against theindigenous um peoples in St.
Vincent.
Okay, so what they meant whenthey said Black Caribs is that
(35:23):
these were the union of Africanpeoples and indigenous peoples
who had produced um a sense ofthemselves as a specific
identity and um created thepolitical community, um,
exercised claims of sovereigntyand the capacity to resist
penetration by Europeans againstSt.
(35:45):
Vincent.
When they spoke and wrote of theYellow Caribs, okay, what they
said is that these are theindigenous peoples who were
there before Africans umentered, and that they
constituted a separate politicaland economic and cultural entity
and so on.
Now we have to be careful ofthose distinctions, okay, on two
(36:07):
grounds.
Because again, you know,Mendelian genetics, which the
British would never haveunderstood at the time, you
know, biological um, you know,advancement doesn't exist, okay,
would have meant, as Iindicated, from first contact
between Africans and indigenouspeoples in the 1500s, that
exchange of genes had alreadybegun to take place.
(36:29):
And so by this, by the 1700s,that exchange of genes would
have been 200 years plus old.
And the notion that you couldsomehow, by a person's features,
know who's pure Kalinago, thatnotion is nonsensical.
There is no such thing as a pureKalinago in the 1700s, not in an
island as small as St.
(36:50):
Vincent, where over generations,you know, men and women are you
know producing children, youknow, as men and women do.
But the where one lives andone's physical features um could
allow these physicalcharacteristics, you know,
that's how racism works.
The use of physicalcharacteristics, you know, to
(37:12):
denote a specific group and thenadd all kinds of um you know
characteristics to that group inall kinds of ways.
So the same process is at work,and in this instance, it is to
distinguish what they see as thegenuine threat to British um you
know dominance of St.
Vincent, the Kalinago peopleslash Black Arabs from those
(37:36):
whom they deem to be not asthreatening the Kalinago people
slash the uh the Yellow Caribs.
So Gaifuna slash Black Caribs,Kalinago slash um Yellow Caribs.
But these same Kalinago, whothey now call in the tame
people, were the ones who wereleading the fight in the 1500s
and the 1600s.
So all of a sudden they becometame.
(37:57):
Okay, it makes no sense.
The Gaifuna spoke the samelanguage, the culture was
identical, their fate wasidentical.
So for the Kalinago, this wastheir brothers, sisters,
cousins, ancestors, they hadbecome a unified people.
But political communities um youknow can be maintained or
(38:19):
created through divide and rulestrategies and so on.
And the smaller group of peoplewho may have identified
themselves as the so-called um,you know, yellow crimes in the
British terminology, um, theysaw as this lesser threat, and
hence they deemed those peoplesto be um capable of remaining,
(38:41):
but they were smaller numbers.
The vast majority of the peoplevanished from St.
Vincent.
And so there's a kind of umself-rationalizing that takes
place.
We will keep a smaller numbersand say that they're the yellow
Caribs, and we'll send away thevast number of people and call
them the Black Caribs.
But of course, these dreams ofthe Garavuna and the Kalinago
are all now intermixed in a waythat is has become
(39:03):
indistinguishable.
So we should see these as socialand political um you know
strategies on the part of theBritish to divide and rule
indigenous peoples of St.
Vincent and justify the massexpulsion of the vast majority
of Indigenous peoples on thebasis that they were not
indigenous.
SPEAKER_01 (39:20):
I think this is a tremendous conversation as
you've walked us through, um,just because it challenges some
of these more simplisticnotions, right?
Of genocide, of indigenoushistories, of sovereignty and
claims to these lands.
And so while I usually um inthese episodes ask for several,
(39:42):
you know, recommendations oftexts that are, you know, bring
together this history.
I think this volume that you andyour colleagues are working on,
or these set of volumes that arecoming out, um, will be
tremendous in helping us moredeeply understand the roots of
these histories, um particularlyfor St.
Vincent and the Grenadines.
And so with that, um I just wantto ask you from a author and
(40:07):
historian perspective, you'vebeen working on this, these
volumes, the first of which isdebuting shortly.
Um, what has it been like to notonly work on history of St.
Vincent as a Vincenzient, workon it alongside other ventrient
historians and your colleagues,um, and do so in ways that are
supported by the government?
(40:29):
Um, what has this collectiveprocess been like?
And how do you hope that thesevolumes really transform the
understandings for venture athome and abroad?
SPEAKER_00 (40:39):
Um, that's a wonderful question indeed.
Um, my my colleagues are topclass, um, Dr.
Asian Fraser, who actually um,you know, could reclaim, if he
so wishes, to be my intellectualfather, because he taught me in
high school and introduced me tothe um to the more rigorous way
to think of history, to beworking alongside um, you know,
(41:00):
Dr.
Fraser, um, who was my teacher,is an honor uh in and of itself.
Um, I'm also working alongsideDr.
Clee Scott, um, whose umencyclopedic knowledge and um
research capabilities, uh, youknow, and the history of St.
Vincent is clearly um unrivaled.
And he teaches at the Universityof West Indies, Kevil.
(41:22):
And Dr.
Thomas, um, you know, who isalso um he's been working in
this field um at least since the1970s.
So he has like a 50-year um, youknow, kind of um, you know,
anchor within the um researchand writing of the intention
historical um experience.
So against these men who have umspent decades of their lives um
(41:46):
you know developing this corpusof knowledge of St.
Vincent, um, I am humbled by theopportunity to work with them
and show that work, you know,offer some, I would say, you
know, my own kind of insights asto how we can think of this
material.
So it has been an exceedinglyproductive relationship in terms
(42:09):
of having to work alongsidethese fellow authors.
And um what it has also meant,however, as Vincentians, and in
part you you've got the answerthat you have an interpretive
posture, uh you know, um senseas to how we view the Vincentian
experience in a way that um youuh unlike to find elsewhere or
(42:32):
expressed in the same fashion.
So this is what is so crucialabout um doing the Vincentian
historical experience.
Because in history, we want to,um in terms of the Caribbean,
see where St.
Vincent fits into the broader umcontours of Caribbean history.
Yet simultaneously, we want tounderstand the specific um, you
(42:52):
know, elements of St.
Vincent, which give this um thishistory, you know, a
particularity that um that wesee now place else, because that
is part of the the the um thewhole project of you know of
understanding how historyunfolds.
You know, some things mayultimately be quite different.
So we want to have a you know tosee where St.
(43:13):
Vincent fits into that largelarger tapestry of the Caribbean
experience and so on.
And we're eternally grateful tothe government of St.
Vincent and the Grenadines forconceptualizing the idea that
the history of St.
Vincent ought to be um writtenand to choose to fund it as they
are doing.
(43:34):
So in all of these differentways, I am really um you know
very, very happy to be workingat this time in this field with
um with federal intentionalhistorians.
SPEAKER_01 (43:45):
Well, I am certainly looking forward to these series
of texts, I think, you know,again, to really transform um
that pre-colonial history,especially, I think is one that
is particularly interesting tome, just as, you know, for us to
understand that that our ourstories did not start with
Columbus, right?
(44:05):
As they're often simplified.
And so for us to have a deeperunderstanding of that
pre-colonial history and as wellthe connections that result
from, you know, these firstcontacts, especially between
enslaved Africans and indigenouscommunities.
And so with that, I will bringus to a close.
(44:26):
I hope our listeners who aretuned in are as excited for
these volumes as I am.
I will be sure to link, youknow, this first volume and the
subsequent ones for ourlisteners online on our website,
um, as well as across socialmedia.
So definitely be sure to keep aneye out for Native Genocide and
African enslavement in St.
Vincent and the Grenadines,published soon by Dr.
(44:49):
Denny and his colleagues, as hementioned.
I'm certainly looking forward toit.
Um, and I hope all of ourlisteners are as well.
And so, with that, thank you,Dr.
Denny, for sharing so much ofyour wisdom and experience with
us.
Um, and congrats, of course,again on this you know major
accomplishment for this firstset in the volumes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (45:09):
Thanks for tuning in to Strictly Facts.
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