Send us a text message and tell us your thoughts.
Joined by Mr. Kevin Farmer of the Barbados Museum and Historical Society, we explore identity, cultural preservation, and the journey of Caribbean museums from colonial-era institutions to centers that shape national consciousness and safeguard heritage. Mr. Farmer's insights illuminate the evolution of Caribbean museums, spotlighting their crucial role in giving voice to marginalized communities and confronting complex histories within their walls. We capture the essence of a collective awakening, when cultural policies and spaces like the National Art Gallery in Jamaica emerge, nurturing local talent and innovation, as well as national journeys to define identity through cultural institutions. We also tackle global resonance, the repatriation of artifacts, to discuss the wider challenges of decolonizing archaeology. From this episode, gain a richer appreciation for the power of museums in both reflecting and shaping our collective memory and identity.
Kevin Farmer is currently Deputy Director of the Barbados Museum and Historical Society (BMHS). As Deputy Director of the Barbados Museum, he has the responsibility for museum exhibition programming and capital campaign fundraising. He holds a Master’s degree in History (Heritage Studies) from the University of the West Indies, Cave Hill, Barbados, and has lectured in Archaeology at the Department of History at the University of the West Indies, St. Augustine, Trinidad and taught at the UWI Cave Hill in their MA Heritage Studies program.
A member of the Barbados World Heritage Committee, he was site manager for the property Historic Bridgetown and its Garrison, and is currently site manager for the Newton Enslaved Burial Ground. Mr. Farmer is co-editor of the publication entitled: Pre-colonial and Post-Colonial Contact Archaeology in Barbados (2019); Plantation to Nation: Caribbean Museums and National Identity(2012) along with articles written on cultural resource management, historical ar
Caribbean Legal Solutions is the easiest way to find an attorney in the Caribbean. Visit their website at caribbeanlegalsolutions.com
Disclaimer: This podcast ad contains general information about Caribbean Legal Solutions and is not intended as legal advice. Always consult with a qualified attorney for legal advice specific to your situation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello Wampum people, andwelcome back to another episode
(00:22):
of Strictly Facts, a guide toCaribbean history and culture.
I'm your host, alexandriaMiller, and we're kicking off
this episode with an amazingdiscussion about nation building
and national identity.
We've had several conversationsabout protests, campaigns for
Caribbean freedom, the processesby which many of our islands
(00:42):
went through to approachindependence, like the West
Indian Federation, and you mayhave even thought about
important attributes of nationbuilding, like flags, national
anthems, for instance.
But along that trajectory, haveyou considered how important
museums are in shaping newstories for our islands, ones
disparaged by extraction, forcedlabor and, of course, the
(01:05):
demeaning stories and socialhierarchies created by colonial
conquest?
Museums, of course, have manypurposes as vessels of education
, for archival access andartifact holding, for public
consumption.
Of course, the list could go on, but I think, particularly for
the region, museums are also away to combat centuries of
(01:29):
injustice, as told by ourhistory.
So, joining our conversationtoday to share the story of
Caribbean museums and nationbuilding, particularly post the
mid 20th century and, you know,to take us forward into
contemporary times with the workthat is being done today is Mr
Kevin Farmer, deputy Director ofthe Barbados Museum and
(01:51):
Historical Society.
Mr Farmer, thank you so muchfor joining me.
Why don't we begin with yousharing a bit about yourself for
our Strictly Facts audienceyour personal connection to the
Caribbean, of course, and whatinspired your passions for
museum history and a little bitmore background in your work in
archaeology?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Okay, thank you, alexandria.
It's great to be here.
I know we only have got a shorttime to discuss.
So I'm a historian andhistorical archaeologist by
training, born in Barbados, butI consider myself to be a West
Indian or Caribbean person,educated at the University of
the West Indies at Cave Hill andat Mona.
(02:32):
Back to Cave Hill.
I've taught at St Augustine inTrinidad and traveled all over
the region, and for me, museumsare really our storytellers.
It's where our tangible andintangible memories are held and
(02:57):
it's that space that allows usalmost a free reign into
discussing who we are the good,the bad, the ugly.
It's a space where marginalizedvoices get to be heard, whether
there are poor white communityof Barbados, east Indian
(03:18):
communities in Barbados, as wellas diving into and exploring
the nuances of enslavement.
For me, that's the importanceof museums being the space where
multiple stories can be told atany time or told together, and
(03:38):
it's where the collective memoryof a nation resides and where
the importance of not onlycontinuing the memory but
learning from the past as wellbecomes really, really important
in, in a way, expressing who weare as a people and
understanding why we do certainthings or why certain things
(04:01):
might have happened in the pastso that hopefully we don't
repeat it.
So, in a way, we are thephysical manifestation of
Sankofa.
We look back in order that wecan chart our way forward.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Indeed to go back and fetch it, as they would say
right.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yes, to go back and fetch it, and I would say that
my interest in history startedat a very young age.
It and I would say that myinterest in history started at a
very young age from my mumtaking me to the public library
here at home and she reminded methat the first book I ever
borrowed was a history book,which was kind of funny.
I was about maybe five or six,so I've always been fascinated
(04:40):
by the past but about what itcan tell us about our future and
our present.
And I guess the family history,now that I think about it,
drove me in that direction.
So on my father's side, hisfather was born in Panama of
Barbadian parents who went tobuild the canal and I just found
(05:02):
that to be utterly fascinatingand they sent their children
back to be raised in Barbados.
So I guess that earlyconnection understanding
migration and how it affectsfamilies, and the history behind
why you are where you are kindof fascinated me as as a young
(05:23):
child and that fascination justkind of kept hold during
secondary school and thenchoosing history as a first
degree, archaeology came aboutbecause those were the courses
offered and it made me recognizethat a simple object could have
as many stories as a book andthe multiple stories that can be
(05:47):
told about a simple objectcould have as many stories as a
book.
And the multiple stories thatcan be told about a simple
object is what in fact drew meto that discipline.
And, of course, all of thatculminates in almost the open
experience that is a museum.
There's text, there are objects, there's song, there's moving
image and there's the space inwhich to tell these stories and
(06:11):
the time to really dive intothem and try to understand them
and then to see how people getfascinated by learning these new
facts.
But first, one of the hardestthings to do in a museum is
write text 250 words to try toget over all of this in-depth
(06:34):
information.
It really taught you how to besuccinct and, in a way, how to
in a way tease the audience tolearn more.
In my early career I found thatreally, really fascinating, and
I still do.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Thank you so much for sharing just a bit about who
you are and all that is involved.
I think, really in museumbuilding that you know those on,
maybe our side, my side, mightnot even think of, so really
appreciate you sharing a bitabout that.
I definitely want to kick offour discussion today with taking
(07:12):
us a little bit, even beforegetting to you know these
post-independence createdmuseums and really chart what
was some of the you know impetusfor colonially established
museums if there's a way ofputting it um, what purpose they
served at the time before youknow many of our islands became
(07:34):
independent and the goals ofthose curators many of those who
were, you know, obviouslycoming from uk, from france,
netherlands the list could go onright Just to really establish
a reference point for whathappens later on as we'll
continue on in our conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
No problem.
So I'll start that first with ashameless plug.
So a couple of years ago I wasquite privileged.
My director at the museum,alessandra Cummings, is very
well known in in the museumworld, not only in the region
but outside of it.
We got together with anothercolleague, rosalind Russell from
Australia, and came up with theidea for a Caribbean museums
(08:19):
book, because so often whenyou're looking for research on
Caribbean museums it's notwritten by people in the
Caribbean, or we might be askedto write a small article in a
larger anthology made up ofpersons from around the world in
museology, but it was never onethat was specifically focused
(08:40):
on the Caribbean.
So we brainstormed andrecognized that we need to tell
the full story of thedevelopment of museums in this
region, and the title for me wasMoss App From Plantation to
Nation, because it's coming outof that enlightenment era of
trying to order the world aroundit that we get into
(09:01):
categorization by Linnaeus, whopeople will remember for his
classification of people intoracial hierarchies.
But before that he was reallythe one who came up with how do
we categorize the world, that wesee what's the taxonomy and the
nomenclature, and he did all ofthat work.
(09:21):
And so from very early on.
We can almost start to say thatas persons encountered this new
world, they began to collectand try to, in their limited way
, bring some order to it, ofcourse telling their particular
story.
So very much, very early onthose colonial collections were
(09:45):
really about telling the storyof the space that they found
through their particular lens,not necessarily listening or
even fully understanding whatthe Indigenous knowledge was was
(10:07):
.
So I guess the classic examplefor me would be the core
collection that started theBritish Museum has its origins
in the Caribbean, so Sir HansSloane's collection, which was
purchased by the BritishParliament that went on to be
the British Museum's foundingcollection.
A lot of that collection isbased on what he found, kept,
(10:27):
took up, borrowed, stole, maybein some instances of the space
that he'd now come into as ayoung physician, whether in
Jamaica or Barbados, or histravels, because he was in the
retinue of the governor at thetime.
His travels because he was inthe in the retinue of the
(10:49):
governor at the time and thatformed his understanding of this
new world that he was finding.
And it's about understandingthat new world, almost in
juxtaposition to the world youalready knew, is really the
nucleus of what early museums orearly cabinets of curiosities
would have been in this region.
So we go back to thedevelopment of the Institute of
(11:11):
Jamaica and what was called theVictorian Institute in the 19th
century.
Those are really the firstearly museums set up as museums
in the English-speakingCaribbean at the time.
But the outlook was colonial inthat how do we better
(11:33):
understand the space that we'rein relative to where we've come
from?
So the collections and thestories always offered the
indigenous or the enslaved orthe indentured.
It was never our story.
So even the setup of the museumwhere I work at the Barbados
(11:56):
Museum created in 1933, is verymuch as a colonial museum.
It's really how the elite sawthemselves and saw the history
of the island around them injuxtaposition to the UK, to the
mother country.
(12:17):
And one great example of thiswhen you look through some of
the early documents at themuseum, when you look through
some of the early documents atthe museum, they outlined oh, we
want to look at archaeology andunderstand the native past.
We want to understandarchitecture and how we I mean
we meaning Europeans got hereand the ability to trace that.
(12:40):
But one of the early foundingmembers said but we don't want
to talk about enslavement, wedon't want to remind the local
population of where they camefrom, because that might incite
them to rebellion.
And it's only when you diveinto the history and you
(13:07):
recognize that a lot of ourhistory as enslaved people is
very much foundationally aboutour resistance to that
enslavement.
You don't understand why thatwas said, because how do you
want to control the people andthen still acknowledge the fact
that, well, they fought againstthis control from the get-go?
But in the post-colonial wherewe are now, it's important to
tell those stories.
Where we are now, it'simportant to tell those stories
(13:28):
because we need to understandthat we are the descendants of
persons who resisted.
We are descendants of those whosurvived.
We are not victims and that'san extremely important narrative
to tell, coming out of theindependence movement of the 60s
, recognizing that there's stillsome English-speaking islands
(13:48):
that are still not independent.
They're still colonies of theUnited Kingdom, even though
they'll try to find some reallyfancy, wonderful word to dress
it up, like the French do insaying department de l'autonomie
.
Yeah, still a colony, you stilldon't have control over your
own internal or foreign policy,you don't.
(14:11):
So museums become the spacesthat get to tell those stories,
but we've got to recognize wherewe came from.
We came, in the most part, froman institution that sought to
say, well, yes, you're a colonyand this is how you should
behave relative to the mothercountry, as opposed to really
(14:34):
telling the truth about who weare and how we got here and the
nuances that developed.
And I think that's ourresponsibility today is to not
only speak truth to power, butto uncover that truth wherever
it is and to give voice to it.
Gotten into looking at how wecan have greater collaboration
(15:09):
with the community in terms ofhow do we bring these exhibits
or public programming together.
So, anywhere from whatinitially I discussed in
Plantation Nation to Old Talk orwhat a colleague of mine,
natalie McGuire-Batson, has justdeveloped in terms of community
engagement I've not forgot whather term is.
(15:29):
I'll come back to me during thecourse of this discussion, but
she has she's formulated areally good foundation of what
that could be and allowing ourmuseums to speak to
multi-vocality as well, becausewe live in a region where we're
all mixed um, persons are white,persons are plot persons are in
(15:53):
between an indian and chinese,and african and javanese,
depending on where you go, andindigenous, depending on where
you go in the region, so thatour museums then need to be
reflective of those historiesand those stories.
And I think that's criticallyimportant, especially when we
look at the world that we're in,that people are divided along
(16:16):
not only ethnic but religiouslines.
How do we combat that in thespace in which we live?
How do we give voice to it?
I think that's criticallyimportant.
And how do we tell some in thespace in which we live?
How do we give voice to it?
I think that's criticallyimportant.
And how do we tell some ofthose untold stories?
So that's part of the ongoingresearch and recognizing that
the curator is not, as he or shewas seen 50 years ago, as the
(16:42):
person who's controlling thedoor at the entrance.
You know, you're not thegatekeeper, you're simply the
facilitator and the guardian toensure that these stories are
passed on from generation togeneration, and I think that's
how Caribbean museums andgalleries are evolving.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I think that was beautifully said and even takes
me to my next question.
Right, we have obviously, as youpointed, a set of museums that
were founded prior to ournationalist movements and how
they've evolved.
But really, in your scope, howhave you seen those that you
know came up post-independence,highlight reshaping our national
(17:28):
identity?
I know places like NationalGallery of Jamaica was the first
art gallery National ArtGallery of the Anglophone
Caribbean being founded in, Ithink, 1974.
But really, what was the scopeof those museums coming to be
and what ideas did they have inmind, especially as the nations
(17:48):
are forming, especially, as youknow their new ways of us
talking?
There is also, at the time, youknow, scholars really having
either been educated abroad inyou know the quote unquote
former mother country, dependingon you know the years here, you
know the quote-unquote formermother country, depending on you
know the years here but comingback and really wanting to be
like, okay, this is the historyof Jamaica or Barbados as told
(18:10):
through our eyes.
How did those two you knowdynamics really work together to
shape the future of museumspost-colonially?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
um, when you take a look at those post-independent
museums, galleries, heritagesites in the post-independence
period, it's a radical rethinkof who we are, who are being
trained at University College ofthe West Indies, which is
(18:42):
established in 1948, first atMona, and how they in turn
respond to the creation of thisyoung nation.
We've moved through federation,purpose, unsimple, lamented, oh
, it didn't work out in 62, butthere's this agitation.
We need to be independent.
Look at what's happened inIndia.
(19:08):
Look at what's happening inAfrica.
No-transcript, the history waschanging.
So the social history that isbeing taught and being
(19:29):
researched in the late 60s and70s that privileges us, built on
Williams' thesis of capitalismand slavery.
Walter Rodney's, how EuropeUnderdeveloped Africa.
Capitalism and slavery.
(19:49):
Walter Rodney's, how EuropeUnderdeveloped Africa.
Elsa Kavaya, woodrow Marshall,sidney Mintz all of that is
building up to the point where.
Who are we?
What are we?
What have we done?
How do we showcase this?
How do we channel all of thisenergy into this independent
(20:11):
movement?
So you've got the developmentof the National Art Gallery in
Jamaica, but I will say,alongside that, for Jamaica,
that I find most interesting isthe development of what was a
craft museum in Spanish Town atthe same time, which really to
(20:32):
me said, we're privileging ourability to innovate at a local
level, and so craft is not justcraft.
Craft is about how we havefound solutions to local
problems in a given space.
And so the two of them together.
(20:54):
So art at one end which is seenup there and craft which is
seen down there, and they bothhave their independent spaces.
To tell the story of Jamaica,and, of course, the development
of the Edna Manley School.
That also said academics aregreat, but there must be equal
(21:17):
footing for the artists, whetherthe person is a visual artist
or a dancer or singer, or orpoet or playwright, they must be
equal footing.
And the 70s then becomes pivotalfor a whole number of reasons
the Black Power movement, theacknowledgment even though we
haven't fully acknowledged ithow Black West Indian students
(21:41):
and Black West Indianintellectuals are in fact
foundational to the civil rightsmovement in the States in the
60s and 70s we don't pay enoughattention to that and all of
them coming together in theregion to begin to have the
question about who we are andrecognize that 74 period.
(22:04):
We're getting into the firstCarifesta, which is about us
celebrating us.
So here we are, these regionalgovernments coming together, and
for the audience who don'tremember Carifesta or Carifta
and may only see Carifta as anathletics competition, carifta
(22:25):
is really the precursor toCARICOM, or should we say it is
the stepchild of federation,where there's a recognition that
there is some good to be had bybringing us together in a
regional market systemeconomically.
But then Persson said said well, economics is one thing, but
(22:49):
what about the social andcultural?
And that breeds carifesta?
And and for that almost decadethere's series of policy
workshops and meetings andgatherings about how do we
advance our respective cultures.
So Kamau Braffet writes what isalmost the pillar of what our
(23:17):
cultural policy is in the 70s.
The same thing happens inJamaica, it happens in Trinidad
and these are still our guidingdocuments to today, coming out
of that radical phase.
We're still in that radicalphase because we continue to
evolve and refine those policydocuments and bring them to life
.
In some cases what happens onthe street overtakes the policy.
(23:44):
We just have to look at thegrowth and development of ska
and mental into reggae andindependent producers and
singers.
There's an early Barbadiansinger, but he's one of the
early reggae singers in Jamaica.
In fact Bob Marley and theWailers were his backup at one
(24:07):
point and there's a wonderfulstory where Bob mentions him.
The name will come back to meat some time and we need to tell
the stories because, eventhough we see music as national,
music at that time was veryCaribbean.
Musicians moved wherever therewas work, didn't stay static,
(24:33):
and that needs also to beacknowledged and recognized.
But all of this is coalescingand part of the manifestation of
that is actually thedevelopment of some of those
early institutions.
So Jackie Opel was the singerin Barbados who made it big in
(24:56):
Jamaica singing ska and reggaeand then moved back to Barbados
to invent a new music calledspooge.
But he died quite young butpivotal in the development of
reggae and bringing to lightTosh and Marley and the Wailers.
So we also need to understandthe interconnectedness of our
(25:17):
stories as well.
But here you have for the firsttime 74, as a precursor to
Carifesta, where you actuallyget to see your own art, and not
just your own art utilizing theEuropean canon, but your own
intuitive artists presentingwhat they see of themselves to
(25:41):
you.
So you almost have thatreflective mirror.
Here's how we see ourselves.
Let's really have a talk aboutthis.
And that goes on to spawn awhole set of national galleries
throughout the region or thecreation of national collections
, sands, galleries.
(26:03):
And at the same time you'llfind that most of the
post-co-institutions, oddlyenough, are galleries.
They're not necessarily museums, they're all about the visual.
That might have been adeliberate policy We've got to
go back and really take acritical look at what those
policy documents were saying.
(26:23):
But it's about acknowledgingthat we can create and that we
can innovate.
And I still think that we aresomewhat in that particular
sphere as well where we arerecognizing and acknowledging
(26:45):
that we are creators and notjust consumers.
And the interesting thing forme to note is that National
Gallery Jamaica in 74 happensafter the first Cari Festa,
which is 1972 in Guyana.
So you know what is the impetusfrom Cari Festa?
That from Carifesta that leadsto the development of national
(27:09):
galleries in the 1970s and early80s in the region.
But it's about recognizing.
For me it's about recognizingthat we are creative and
acknowledging that.
And then, of course, at the endof the day, the artist is
always the original critique oftheir society, whether in music,
(27:31):
dance, song or moving visuals.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
So yeah, that brings me to a point you made earlier,
really thinking about thediversity of the region, right,
diversity of the region, right,you know, in terms of our
identity and national makeup, orethnic makeup, right, and
racial makeup.
We have people of asian descent, people of african descent, etc
(27:57):
.
Etc.
Um, I've, you know, we've hadepisodes on jewish identity in
the caribbean, and, um, all ofthat to say, our national
movements were really, in asense, to uphold our Black
populations, right, ones thatwere plagued by centuries of
enslavement, and wanting toreshape the memory of what was,
(28:20):
you know, determined by thecolonial bodies.
How successful do you thinkthese museums springing up post
the 60s?
How successful were they indoing that?
And then, you know, as an addon what were maybe some of the
challenges or what has evolvedsince then, to also uphold the
legacies of, you know, say,indian indentured servitude or,
(28:43):
you know, many of the otherethnic bodies we have servitude
or you know many of the other umethnic bodies we have.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, um, critically, we were.
They weren't very good attelling the story of everyone.
Um, simply because they were sofocused on dealing with the
binary.
How do you deal with tellingthe story of an island or
country that has come out ofthis colonial oppression and the
(29:13):
major colonial oppression wasabout enslavement and being a
colony how do you position yourpeople, the majority of whom are
of African descent for the mostpart, in building them up and
making them realize that theycould achieve everything?
So that early post-independentdevelopment of museums and art
(29:41):
galleries and heritageinstitutions was very much about
confronting that colonial pastand, in some doing, pushing
smaller groups marginalized interms of I'm dealing with size,
not necessarily economic cloutto the periphery.
(30:02):
And it's only in the last 20years, 30 years because we've
got now remember we're in 2024.
Wow, this is amazing for someof us.
So 24 years ago it was 2000.
10 years before that we're at1990.
So in the last 34 years,because we have, in a way,
(30:23):
successfully planted what it isto be an independent nation
state that we can begin to say,okay, what are the other stories
that we've not been telling andin fact, when you look in those
spaces, the mere fact thatyou've got museums or galleries
dedicated to the Jewish pastAsian and Asian meaning South
(30:51):
Asian as well so indentured andor China and or Java Also says
that that initial movementfailed them.
And we've got to acknowledgethat, even in terms of how those
national museums told the storyof women.
(31:12):
In most cases they didn't.
They told the stories of elitewomen for the most part, but not
of everyday women.
So part of the redress I'll sayin the last 20 years is about
bringing the marginal voicesfrom the periphery to the core
and giving them the space, and Ithink we're right now in that
(31:34):
particular period.
So at the Barbados Museum, ifyou were to go to our website,
we speak to some of how we'veengaged with those communities.
We're in the middle midst ofdoing an online digital
exhibition on East Indianmigration to Barbados, which
(31:58):
didn't happen during the periodof indentureship.
In fact, it's an early 1910,1920 migration directly from
India to Barbados, personslooking for economic opportunity
, but not indentured.
So it's different in whathappens in Jamaica, guyana,
Trinidad, suriname, for instance, but we recognize that there's
(32:23):
a need to tell that story andjust recently I did a program
where I spoke about the poorwhite community in Barbados,
which we refer to as red legs.
I can't remember what theJamaican term is in the French
(32:43):
islands it is petit biquet,small white but we need to
recognize and give voice tothose communities, because
they're still here with us andto understand how they see
themselves in relation to thenation state is extremely
important.
And then, of course, how do wedeal with women One?
(33:07):
How do we deal withever-marginalized groups,
whether they are hearing orsight-impaired?
How do we allow our exhibitionsto be accessible to them?
So these are still some of thethings that we're grappling with
now, but I think we've come along way, but there's so much
further that we need to go togive voice.
(33:30):
I remember a couple of years agogoing to National Museums
Jamaica, the Social HistoryMuseum and they had a really
fantastic exhibition on theearly development of scan mental
, something that you might nothave seen 30 years before
development of ska and mento,something that you might not
(33:51):
have seen 30 years before.
So there's a reason to then diveinto sub-genres and
sub-cultures, to understand andbring them out to the fore and
allow those stories to be told.
I think that is where we needto go.
So now the intersection betweenfilm and how film and
documentaries can help museumsreach new audiences and tell
(34:15):
those stories becomes animportant tool in how we develop
our interaction and activity.
And programming andaccessibility becomes critically
, critically important.
And the other aspect in thereis and we're still trying to
figure this out how best do weengage the community to find out
(34:39):
what they really want to see ata museum?
We've got to do that as well.
We can never make theassumption that we know best.
We do not.
So that's why co-creation is sofundamental as a tool of
engagement, where thecommunities become co-curators
(35:00):
with you in whatever you'redoing.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
As you were talking, I also thought of Trinidad's
Indian Caribbean Museum sprangup during 2006.
So you know very much in linewith this.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Very much in line.
Yeah, very much in line.
And then, of course, there arethose things that happened in
this century that we've not evendelved into properly.
There's no trade museum per se.
There isn't a museum ofmigration.
So we better understand whatmigration to Cuba, panama,
(35:39):
colombia, internal well, when Isay internal, internal Caribbean
migration, well, when I sayinternal, internal Caribbean
migration Barbadians to Trinidadin the 1890s and the early part
of the 20th century migrationsto Jamaica following United
Fruit Company around the turn ofthe century.
How does that alter populationsas well?
(36:00):
So there's so much more to betold and there's so many
different stories that we haveyet to explore.
Is that we've got to start thework now?
Because unfortunately we've,we're missing out on almost the
first-hand accounts of thepeople who are directly involved
in that.
It almost makes me think that,as a region, we need to have a
(36:26):
wider program, similar to whathappened in the States after the
depression.
Where was it working?
Was it working?
People's association went intodifferent spaces and simply
recorded the lived experience ofpeople, recognizing that it was
important enough to record it.
Maybe they didn't quite knowwhat to do with it when they
(36:46):
mere factly archived thatmaterial.
It meant that 20, 30, 40 yearslater, someone can go back to it
and have an understanding ofwhat all of that meant and write
books, have documentaries,create exhibits.
We need to be doing that now interms of labour movements,
(37:07):
migration, the progress of women, how do we deal with
marginalized groups?
You need to capture thatinformation now or else it's
going to be lost to us, and Ithink that's one of the key
things that museums can do.
Recognizing, of course, then itmeans that, as one of the
institutions, we need to beplaced firmly within the
(37:29):
developmental agenda of ourgovernment, which, for the most
part, only remembers cultureonce or twice a year, whether
it's carnival or some largernational event that they then
decide oh dear.
Yes, we need a culturalcomponent.
Cultural component has alwaysbeen here.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You just need to pay a bit more attention to it.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
I couldn't have you on this episode without talking
about, you know, more recentconversations around museums.
I think this, more so, hascontended with museums in the
quote movie.
You know when the curator islike, oh, this is from you know,
(38:20):
and then you know, rightfullyso, she gets clapped back on in
a sense and is like actually,this, this artifact that you
know you've held in your museumfor however long, was stolen,
right, and so I.
That's something that Inecessarily haven't thought
about, in terms of whatartifacts and things that we
(38:42):
hold, or if there have beenattempts to get artifacts back
from the UK, from France, andeven just how things have been
moved or repatriated back forour region.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
We're slowly in that beginning process of
repatriation, but there's a stepbefore that.
We actually have to have theengagement where we understand
well what's in your collectionthat speaks about us, speaks
(39:25):
about us.
In some instances a lot of themuseums in the former metropoles
don't know what they have.
I've been part of a grouprecently, or invited onto a
group recently, museums inScotland who are trying to
understand what's in theircollection in the Caribbean and
Africa, because in someinstances their curators aren't
trained in those areas so theydon't know or they haven't
(39:48):
really done the deep dive intotheir catalogs to understand the
provenance of what they have.
And then beginning to haveconversations with us in the
region, not only about what theobject is but what does it say.
And then the largerconversation about okay, great,
you have it, we don't.
(40:09):
How do we look at repatriation?
What does that look like?
And it might be an easierdiscussion in Scotland, who have
begun to repatriate over thelast almost two decades material
, as opposed to in England wherethey're so resistant, because
of course, if they start to godown one line, we all know that
(40:30):
the Greeks will remind them thatelegant marbles don't belong to
you.
There are spoils of war.
There's a need for some, youknow, reversal and reciprocity,
yes, but we're getting there.
So I know later on this yearthere's going to be a
repatriation of a naturalhistory object from Scotland to
(40:51):
Jamaica, which is going to beamazing.
So I look forward to when theyrelease that information.
I just mentioned it here to topeak interest and to tease um,
but shani roper at uwy mona,who's a curator, there is the
person to talk to about that.
But repatriation is beginning.
(41:13):
Those conversations arehappening, perhaps not as fast
as we would like but they'rehappening.
And even in the areas ofarchaeology we began to have
discussions about well, whatdoes archaeology look like when
we've got outside researcherscoming in?
There's need to talk about adecolonization around that as
(41:36):
well, because all of ourinstitutions, for the most part,
and our disciplines, especiallyarchaeology, are created out of
colonial context and, in fact,created because of colonization.
How do they, at the foundationallevels, begin to redress how
(41:56):
they were created for the future, how do they address the
imbalances and what doesdecolonization look like, not
only global north to globalsouth, but global south to
global south?
And there are going to be somedifficult discussions, but
necessary discussions, which wehave to have if we want to be
(42:21):
honest in the telling of thatstory.
Yeah, and I think that's wherewe're going.
We also recognize that there'sbeing pushback, whether it's
being termed as being anti-woke,whatever that is, but for me
it's about the telling of thetruth.
It's about no longer hidinghistorical facts, but being open
(42:47):
and transparent about them andseeing how they can lead to
healing on the one side, closingof trauma at the other, but
it's necessary.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
That brings me to you know one of my favorite
questions of all.
As our listeners will know, Iask this question at every
episode.
I think, and as you rightlypointed to, in terms of our
music, our festivals, carnival,et cetera, there is a way that
our popular culture holds ourhistory that, you know, people
(43:21):
might not always put the two andtwo together, and so my aim
through this question is alwaysto weed that out a little bit
and, you know, maybe get ourlisteners to read a novel or,
you know, listen to a song thatreferences a particular moment
in our history.
So is there something like thatfor you that is really
(43:42):
reflective of museums andnational identity coming up
during this period that ishighlighted in popular culture?
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Oh, wow, yes, and what I'm going to bring to mind
will reference both jamaica, butit has resonance.
So we have a small africangallery here at the museum um
that we created about a decadeago.
It was a temporary exhibitionthat stood up for 17 years
(44:12):
because people were sointerested, and then around 2000
we said, okay, we need to makethis a permanent gallery, and so
we expanded the gallery from200 square feet to 800 square
feet and sought to tell in verybroad brushstrokes about the
history of the continent, goingback from the development of
(44:36):
early hominids into Homo sapiensall the way up to what Africa
looks today.
And there is one exhibitionwhere we take people through.
We remind them of Bob Marley'ssong War, because it's an
(44:57):
Ethiopian scroll and mostpersons don't recognize that
that song was actually HaileSelassie's speech to the League
of Nations and in fact it'sbecause of the invasion that we
have Rastafari.
So I mean we use that to showhow global events continue to
(45:19):
shape us and how we in turncontinue to shape the world
around us and to remind peoplethat, though we might see
ourselves as small, our impacton the world is so much greater
than that and this is for me avery important message that
(45:42):
anyone coming through a museumin the region should leave
knowing our impact on the widerworld.
So War, for me, becomes one ofthose songs.
And then the ending text panelin that gallery is an image of
1980s.
(46:03):
I think it's Zimbabwe, and wehave Marley's song Zimbabwe and
reminding people of theinvitation at the time.
So to recognize connections butalso recognize resonance.
For me, the ever more importantobject I'll point to in our
(46:25):
museum is we have a small agatebead excavated from the enslaved
borough grown at Newton, whichis a plantation here Now.
This agate bead, I remindpeople, is globalization.
It's an agate bead that comesfrom India, made its way across
the Atlantic, was buried in thecoffin of an enslaved man who
(46:49):
was brought to an island in themid-Atlantic to grow an Asian
grass called sugarcane forprocess and export to Europe.
And this is the 18th century.
So globalization starts here.
Understand why we are where weare and the outsized role that
(47:11):
we have played in the world andwill continue to play.
To ground us as to who we are,to recognize that our story
doesn't begin and end withenslavement but is a much larger
story as well as a people.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
I will definitely add those to our Strictly Facts
syllabus, as well as yourco-edited book From Plantation
to Nation, which I think walksus through beautifully.
Some of you know not only thehistory of those founding
museums during our colonialperiod, but also the history of
museums like the NationalGallery in Jamaica, like the
(47:49):
Junkanoo Museum in Bahamas, thatare really, you know, doing the
work that we've been talkingabout today, showcasing the
histories of not just, you know,those who were colonized but
also those smaller subset groupswho, have, you know, didn't
necessarily get the earlyrecognition in our immediate
post-colonial period.
(48:10):
So definitely wanted tohighlight that as well and I'll
add it to our Sturley FactSyllabus and in the show notes,
I'll add it to our Sturley Packsyllabus and in the show notes.
And so for my final questionfor our conversation today,
we've talked about some of theways that museums have been
evolving, some of the work thatneeds to be done.
We are now in a period whereseveral islands have even, you
(48:32):
know, moved to Republic statusor, as you very well know,
course right, um, or you know,have been talking about moving
to republic status as well.
How do you think museums willreflect the last 50 ish, you
know, depending on which island,of course, but the last few
decades of us being independentfor the future, and you know
(48:55):
just what ways you see themeither shaping the future, using
things like technology toconnect across even the region
and the diaspora.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Let me take it first, starting with the movement
towards Republican status.
For me, the movement towardsRepublican status is the
continuation of a continuum.
From the time we were brought,forcibly brought here, we
resisted the various ways inwhich we have resisted and
manifested that resistance liesboth in physical rebellion moves
(49:33):
through to the establishment oftrade unions that want to have
workers and people's rights, tothe independence movement in the
1960s, through to republicanism.
So for me it's a continuum.
It's the last four or 500 yearscontinuum towards
(49:55):
self-government and self-rule,but in that recognizing that
we're not the only people inthis space.
But how do we bring along ourIndigenous communities in the
spaces in which they're stillfound?
How do we bring along ourmarginalized communities in the
spaces where they are?
And utilizing technology notonly to capture memory, but
(50:20):
utilizing technology to createcontent that allows us to tell
the interconnectedness of thosestories across our entire region
.
Our Caribbean Sea is not ablock.
Our Caribbean Sea is conduit toeach other and the various
(50:42):
stories that we've told overtime.
The fact that a national heroof Barbados is born in Trinidad,
barbadian parents, the factthat one of the major labor
leaders in Trinidad comes from asmaller island called Grenada
we need to tell theinterconnectedness of those
(51:04):
stories.
So technology allows us tocapture but also then allows us
to build up content.
Look forward to the day wherewe ourselves, together, create a
document we call the Caribbeanand not have to watch one on the
BBC that really doesn't reflectus.
(51:25):
Likewise, with podcasts likeyours, we go to that online
portal and download thosemultiple stories about us.
I think that's where technologyis pushing us and I think that's
where we need, where we need togo.
So podcasts like yours andothers being the Coursera or the
(51:52):
West Indiana of who we arebecomes necessary going forward.
And it's in the small and inthe big things, whether it's
about the complexities of therums that we create and drink,
or it's about how we take thatbasic product called carnel and
(52:17):
turn it into so many differentthings, whether it's dukkuna or
pime or congee or kenke, turncornmeal or cuckoo or palento,
you know it's.
It's about creating that andhaving access to it and
(52:39):
understanding the connectednessbetween them.
I think is where we're going,and technology will and should
allow us to do that.
It should make our storiesaccessible and our shared paths
accessible as well, and I thinkthat's where museums need to go.
We need to see ourselves ascontent creators across multiple
(53:02):
platforms, utilizing all media.
That is what we are In fact.
That makes us stand out interms of the heritage sphere in
the region.
We are content creators interms of the heritage sphere in
the region.
We are content creators becausewe house both two-dimensional
and three-dimensional, tangibleand intangible objects of our
(53:24):
past that can speak to a future,and I think that's where our
strength lies and it's how weneed to build on and build out
the telling of our story.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
I have no final words after that.
I think that was impeccablysaid.
Thank you for the work thatyou're doing for all of the
museum curators.
You know really helping toshape not only the education and
awareness that we have for theregion, the movements that we've
made across the world, reallyin our impact on the world, that
(53:56):
we've made across the worldreally in our impact on the
world, and really, just, youknow, changing the landscape of
how we define ourselves awayfrom, you know, what was
colonially imposed.
So thank you so much, mr Farmer, of course, for joining me for
this episode To our StrictlyFacts family.
I hope you enjoyed learning abit about museums, the history
of them and how they're movingforward, and I will, of course,
(54:20):
add all of the you know, manythings we talked about whether
it's the resources, the books,the songs and links, of course,
to the Barbados Museum andHistorical Society to our
syllabus and show notes for youall to check out yourself.
So again, thank you so much forlistening.
Thank you, mr Farmer, andlittle more everyone.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Yeah, thank you very much, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Thanks for tuning in to Strictly Facts.
Visit strictlyfactspodcastcomfor more information from each
episode.
Follow us at Strictly Facts Podon Instagram and Facebook and
at Strictly Facts PD on Twitter.
Welcome to Strictly Facts, a guide to Caribbean
history and culture, hosted byme, alexandria Miller.
Strictly Facts teaches thehistory, politics and activism
of the Caribbean and connectsthese themes to contemporary
music and popular culture.
Hello, hello Wampum people, andwelcome back to another episode
(00:22):
of Strictly Facts, a guide toCaribbean history and culture.
I'm your host, alexandriaMiller, and we're kicking off
this episode with an amazingdiscussion about nation building
and national identity.
We've had several conversationsabout protests, campaigns for
Caribbean freedom, the processesby which many of our islands
(00:42):
went through to approachindependence, like the West
Indian Federation, and you mayhave even thought about
important attributes of nationbuilding, like flags, national
anthems, for instance.
But along that trajectory, haveyou considered how important
museums are in shaping newstories for our islands, ones
disparaged by extraction, forcedlabor and, of course, the
(01:05):
demeaning stories and socialhierarchies created by colonial
conquest?
Museums, of course, have manypurposes as vessels of education
, for archival access andartifact holding, for public
consumption.
Of course, the list could go on, but I think, particularly for
the region, museums are also away to combat centuries of
(01:29):
injustice, as told by ourhistory.
So, joining our conversationtoday to share the story of
Caribbean museums and nationbuilding, particularly post the
mid 20th century and, you know,to take us forward into
contemporary times with the workthat is being done today is Mr
Kevin Farmer, deputy Director ofthe Barbados Museum and
(01:51):
Historical Society.
Mr Farmer, thank you so muchfor joining me.
Why don't we begin with yousharing a bit about yourself for
our Strictly Facts audienceyour personal connection to the
Caribbean, of course, and whatinspired your passions for
museum history and a little bitmore background in your work in
archaeology?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Okay, thank you, alexandria.
It's great to be here.
I know we only have got a shorttime to discuss.
So I'm a historian andhistorical archaeologist by
training, born in Barbados, butI consider myself to be a West
Indian or Caribbean person,educated at the University of
the West Indies at Cave Hill andat Mona.
(02:32):
Back to Cave Hill.
I've taught at St Augustine inTrinidad and traveled all over
the region, and for me, museumsare really our storytellers.
It's where our tangible andintangible memories are held and
(02:57):
it's that space that allows usalmost a free reign into
discussing who we are the good,the bad, the ugly.
It's a space where marginalizedvoices get to be heard, whether
there are poor white communityof Barbados, east Indian
(03:18):
communities in Barbados, as wellas diving into and exploring
the nuances of enslavement.
For me, that's the importanceof museums being the space where
multiple stories can be told atany time or told together, and
(03:38):
it's where the collective memoryof a nation resides and where
the importance of not onlycontinuing the memory but
learning from the past as wellbecomes really, really important
in, in a way, expressing who weare as a people and
understanding why we do certainthings or why certain things
(04:01):
might have happened in the pastso that hopefully we don't
repeat it.
So, in a way, we are thephysical manifestation of
Sankofa.
We look back in order that wecan chart our way forward.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Indeed to go back and fetch it, as they would say
right.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yes, to go back and fetch it, and I would say that
my interest in history startedat a very young age.
It and I would say that myinterest in history started at a
very young age from my mumtaking me to the public library
here at home and she reminded methat the first book I ever
borrowed was a history book,which was kind of funny.
I was about maybe five or six,so I've always been fascinated
(04:40):
by the past but about what itcan tell us about our future and
our present.
And I guess the family history,now that I think about it,
drove me in that direction.
So on my father's side, hisfather was born in Panama of
Barbadian parents who went tobuild the canal and I just found
(05:02):
that to be utterly fascinatingand they sent their children
back to be raised in Barbados.
So I guess that earlyconnection understanding
migration and how it affectsfamilies, and the history behind
why you are where you are kindof fascinated me as as a young
(05:23):
child and that fascination justkind of kept hold during
secondary school and thenchoosing history as a first
degree, archaeology came aboutbecause those were the courses
offered and it made me recognizethat a simple object could have
as many stories as a book andthe multiple stories that can be
(05:47):
told about a simple objectcould have as many stories as a
book.
And the multiple stories thatcan be told about a simple
object is what in fact drew meto that discipline.
And, of course, all of thatculminates in almost the open
experience that is a museum.
There's text, there are objects, there's song, there's moving
image and there's the space inwhich to tell these stories and
(06:11):
the time to really dive intothem and try to understand them
and then to see how people getfascinated by learning these new
facts.
But first, one of the hardestthings to do in a museum is
write text 250 words to try toget over all of this in-depth
(06:34):
information.
It really taught you how to besuccinct and, in a way, how to
in a way tease the audience tolearn more.
In my early career I found thatreally, really fascinating, and
I still do.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Thank you so much for sharing just a bit about who
you are and all that is involved.
I think, really in museumbuilding that you know those on,
maybe our side, my side, mightnot even think of, so really
appreciate you sharing a bitabout that.
I definitely want to kick offour discussion today with taking
(07:12):
us a little bit, even beforegetting to you know these
post-independence createdmuseums and really chart what
was some of the you know impetusfor colonially established
museums if there's a way ofputting it um, what purpose they
served at the time before youknow many of our islands became
(07:34):
independent and the goals ofthose curators many of those who
were, you know, obviouslycoming from uk, from france,
netherlands the list could go onright Just to really establish
a reference point for whathappens later on as we'll
continue on in our conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
No problem.
So I'll start that first with ashameless plug.
So a couple of years ago I wasquite privileged.
My director at the museum,alessandra Cummings, is very
well known in in the museumworld, not only in the region
but outside of it.
We got together with anothercolleague, rosalind Russell from
Australia, and came up with theidea for a Caribbean museums
(08:19):
book, because so often whenyou're looking for research on
Caribbean museums it's notwritten by people in the
Caribbean, or we might be askedto write a small article in a
larger anthology made up ofpersons from around the world in
museology, but it was never onethat was specifically focused
(08:40):
on the Caribbean.
So we brainstormed andrecognized that we need to tell
the full story of thedevelopment of museums in this
region, and the title for me wasMoss App From Plantation to
Nation, because it's coming outof that enlightenment era of
trying to order the world aroundit that we get into
(09:01):
categorization by Linnaeus, whopeople will remember for his
classification of people intoracial hierarchies.
But before that he was reallythe one who came up with how do
we categorize the world, that wesee what's the taxonomy and the
nomenclature, and he did all ofthat work.
(09:21):
And so from very early on.
We can almost start to say thatas persons encountered this new
world, they began to collectand try to, in their limited way
, bring some order to it, ofcourse telling their particular
story.
So very much, very early onthose colonial collections were
(09:45):
really about telling the storyof the space that they found
through their particular lens,not necessarily listening or
even fully understanding whatthe Indigenous knowledge was was
(10:07):
.
So I guess the classic examplefor me would be the core
collection that started theBritish Museum has its origins
in the Caribbean, so Sir HansSloane's collection, which was
purchased by the BritishParliament that went on to be
the British Museum's foundingcollection.
A lot of that collection isbased on what he found, kept,
(10:27):
took up, borrowed, stole, maybein some instances of the space
that he'd now come into as ayoung physician, whether in
Jamaica or Barbados, or histravels, because he was in the
retinue of the governor at thetime.
His travels because he was inthe in the retinue of the
(10:49):
governor at the time and thatformed his understanding of this
new world that he was finding.
And it's about understandingthat new world, almost in
juxtaposition to the world youalready knew, is really the
nucleus of what early museums orearly cabinets of curiosities
would have been in this region.
So we go back to thedevelopment of the Institute of
(11:11):
Jamaica and what was called theVictorian Institute in the 19th
century.
Those are really the firstearly museums set up as museums
in the English-speakingCaribbean at the time.
But the outlook was colonial inthat how do we better
(11:33):
understand the space that we'rein relative to where we've come
from?
So the collections and thestories always offered the
indigenous or the enslaved orthe indentured.
It was never our story.
So even the setup of the museumwhere I work at the Barbados
(11:56):
Museum created in 1933, is verymuch as a colonial museum.
It's really how the elite sawthemselves and saw the history
of the island around them injuxtaposition to the UK, to the
mother country.
(12:17):
And one great example of thiswhen you look through some of
the early documents at themuseum, when you look through
some of the early documents atthe museum, they outlined oh, we
want to look at archaeology andunderstand the native past.
We want to understandarchitecture and how we I mean
we meaning Europeans got hereand the ability to trace that.
(12:40):
But one of the early foundingmembers said but we don't want
to talk about enslavement, wedon't want to remind the local
population of where they camefrom, because that might incite
them to rebellion.
And it's only when you diveinto the history and you
(13:07):
recognize that a lot of ourhistory as enslaved people is
very much foundationally aboutour resistance to that
enslavement.
You don't understand why thatwas said, because how do you
want to control the people andthen still acknowledge the fact
that, well, they fought againstthis control from the get-go?
But in the post-colonial wherewe are now, it's important to
tell those stories.
Where we are now, it'simportant to tell those stories
(13:28):
because we need to understandthat we are the descendants of
persons who resisted.
We are descendants of those whosurvived.
We are not victims and that'san extremely important narrative
to tell, coming out of theindependence movement of the 60s
, recognizing that there's stillsome English-speaking islands
(13:48):
that are still not independent.
They're still colonies of theUnited Kingdom, even though
they'll try to find some reallyfancy, wonderful word to dress
it up, like the French do insaying department de l'autonomie
.
Yeah, still a colony, you stilldon't have control over your
own internal or foreign policy,you don't.
(14:11):
So museums become the spacesthat get to tell those stories,
but we've got to recognize wherewe came from.
We came, in the most part, froman institution that sought to
say, well, yes, you're a colonyand this is how you should
behave relative to the mothercountry, as opposed to really
(14:34):
telling the truth about who weare and how we got here and the
nuances that developed.
And I think that's ourresponsibility today is to not
only speak truth to power, butto uncover that truth wherever
it is and to give voice to it.
Gotten into looking at how wecan have greater collaboration
(15:09):
with the community in terms ofhow do we bring these exhibits
or public programming together.
So, anywhere from whatinitially I discussed in
Plantation Nation to Old Talk orwhat a colleague of mine,
natalie McGuire-Batson, has justdeveloped in terms of community
engagement I've not forgot whather term is.
(15:29):
I'll come back to me during thecourse of this discussion, but
she has she's formulated areally good foundation of what
that could be and allowing ourmuseums to speak to
multi-vocality as well, becausewe live in a region where we're
all mixed um, persons are white,persons are plot persons are in
(15:53):
between an indian and chinese,and african and javanese,
depending on where you go, andindigenous, depending on where
you go in the region, so thatour museums then need to be
reflective of those historiesand those stories.
And I think that's criticallyimportant, especially when we
look at the world that we're in,that people are divided along
(16:16):
not only ethnic but religiouslines.
How do we combat that in thespace in which we live?
How do we give voice to it?
I think that's criticallyimportant.
And how do we tell some in thespace in which we live?
How do we give voice to it?
I think that's criticallyimportant.
And how do we tell some ofthose untold stories?
So that's part of the ongoingresearch and recognizing that
the curator is not, as he or shewas seen 50 years ago, as the
(16:42):
person who's controlling thedoor at the entrance.
You know, you're not thegatekeeper, you're simply the
facilitator and the guardian toensure that these stories are
passed on from generation togeneration, and I think that's
how Caribbean museums andgalleries are evolving.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I think that was beautifully said and even takes
me to my next question.
Right, we have obviously, as youpointed, a set of museums that
were founded prior to ournationalist movements and how
they've evolved.
But really, in your scope, howhave you seen those that you
know came up post-independence,highlight reshaping our national
(17:28):
identity?
I know places like NationalGallery of Jamaica was the first
art gallery National ArtGallery of the Anglophone
Caribbean being founded in, Ithink, 1974.
But really, what was the scopeof those museums coming to be
and what ideas did they have inmind, especially as the nations
(17:48):
are forming, especially, as youknow their new ways of us
talking?
There is also, at the time, youknow, scholars really having
either been educated abroad inyou know the quote unquote
former mother country, dependingon you know the years here, you
know the quote-unquote formermother country, depending on you
know the years here but comingback and really wanting to be
like, okay, this is the historyof Jamaica or Barbados as told
(18:10):
through our eyes.
How did those two you knowdynamics really work together to
shape the future of museumspost-colonially?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
um, when you take a look at those post-independent
museums, galleries, heritagesites in the post-independence
period, it's a radical rethinkof who we are, who are being
trained at University College ofthe West Indies, which is
(18:42):
established in 1948, first atMona, and how they in turn
respond to the creation of thisyoung nation.
We've moved through federation,purpose, unsimple, lamented, oh
, it didn't work out in 62, butthere's this agitation.
We need to be independent.
Look at what's happened inIndia.
(19:08):
Look at what's happening inAfrica.
No-transcript, the history waschanging.
So the social history that isbeing taught and being
(19:29):
researched in the late 60s and70s that privileges us, built on
Williams' thesis of capitalismand slavery.
Walter Rodney's, how EuropeUnderdeveloped Africa.
Capitalism and slavery.
(19:49):
Walter Rodney's, how EuropeUnderdeveloped Africa.
Elsa Kavaya, woodrow Marshall,sidney Mintz all of that is
building up to the point where.
Who are we?
What are we?
What have we done?
How do we showcase this?
How do we channel all of thisenergy into this independent
(20:11):
movement?
So you've got the developmentof the National Art Gallery in
Jamaica, but I will say,alongside that, for Jamaica,
that I find most interesting isthe development of what was a
craft museum in Spanish Town atthe same time, which really to
(20:32):
me said, we're privileging ourability to innovate at a local
level, and so craft is not justcraft.
Craft is about how we havefound solutions to local
problems in a given space.
And so the two of them together.
(20:54):
So art at one end which is seenup there and craft which is
seen down there, and they bothhave their independent spaces.
To tell the story of Jamaica,and, of course, the development
of the Edna Manley School.
That also said academics aregreat, but there must be equal
(21:17):
footing for the artists, whetherthe person is a visual artist
or a dancer or singer, or orpoet or playwright, they must be
equal footing.
And the 70s then becomes pivotalfor a whole number of reasons
the Black Power movement, theacknowledgment even though we
haven't fully acknowledged ithow Black West Indian students
(21:41):
and Black West Indianintellectuals are in fact
foundational to the civil rightsmovement in the States in the
60s and 70s we don't pay enoughattention to that and all of
them coming together in theregion to begin to have the
question about who we are andrecognize that 74 period.
(22:04):
We're getting into the firstCarifesta, which is about us
celebrating us.
So here we are, these regionalgovernments coming together, and
for the audience who don'tremember Carifesta or Carifta
and may only see Carifta as anathletics competition, carifta
(22:25):
is really the precursor toCARICOM, or should we say it is
the stepchild of federation,where there's a recognition that
there is some good to be had bybringing us together in a
regional market systemeconomically.
But then Persson said said well, economics is one thing, but
(22:49):
what about the social andcultural?
And that breeds carifesta?
And and for that almost decadethere's series of policy
workshops and meetings andgatherings about how do we
advance our respective cultures.
So Kamau Braffet writes what isalmost the pillar of what our
(23:17):
cultural policy is in the 70s.
The same thing happens inJamaica, it happens in Trinidad
and these are still our guidingdocuments to today, coming out
of that radical phase.
We're still in that radicalphase because we continue to
evolve and refine those policydocuments and bring them to life
.
In some cases what happens onthe street overtakes the policy.
(23:44):
We just have to look at thegrowth and development of ska
and mental into reggae andindependent producers and
singers.
There's an early Barbadiansinger, but he's one of the
early reggae singers in Jamaica.
In fact Bob Marley and theWailers were his backup at one
(24:07):
point and there's a wonderfulstory where Bob mentions him.
The name will come back to meat some time and we need to tell
the stories because, eventhough we see music as national,
music at that time was veryCaribbean.
Musicians moved wherever therewas work, didn't stay static,
(24:33):
and that needs also to beacknowledged and recognized.
But all of this is coalescingand part of the manifestation of
that is actually thedevelopment of some of those
early institutions.
So Jackie Opel was the singerin Barbados who made it big in
(24:56):
Jamaica singing ska and reggaeand then moved back to Barbados
to invent a new music calledspooge.
But he died quite young butpivotal in the development of
reggae and bringing to lightTosh and Marley and the Wailers.
So we also need to understandthe interconnectedness of our
(25:17):
stories as well.
But here you have for the firsttime 74, as a precursor to
Carifesta, where you actuallyget to see your own art, and not
just your own art utilizing theEuropean canon, but your own
intuitive artists presentingwhat they see of themselves to
(25:41):
you.
So you almost have thatreflective mirror.
Here's how we see ourselves.
Let's really have a talk aboutthis.
And that goes on to spawn awhole set of national galleries
throughout the region or thecreation of national collections
, sands, galleries.
(26:03):
And at the same time you'llfind that most of the
post-co-institutions, oddlyenough, are galleries.
They're not necessarily museums, they're all about the visual.
That might have been adeliberate policy We've got to
go back and really take acritical look at what those
policy documents were saying.
(26:23):
But it's about acknowledgingthat we can create and that we
can innovate.
And I still think that we aresomewhat in that particular
sphere as well where we arerecognizing and acknowledging
(26:45):
that we are creators and notjust consumers.
And the interesting thing forme to note is that National
Gallery Jamaica in 74 happensafter the first Cari Festa,
which is 1972 in Guyana.
So you know what is the impetusfrom Cari Festa?
That from Carifesta that leadsto the development of national
(27:09):
galleries in the 1970s and early80s in the region.
But it's about recognizing.
For me it's about recognizingthat we are creative and
acknowledging that.
And then, of course, at the endof the day, the artist is
always the original critique oftheir society, whether in music,
(27:31):
dance, song or moving visuals.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
So yeah, that brings me to a point you made earlier,
really thinking about thediversity of the region, right,
diversity of the region, right,you know, in terms of our
identity and national makeup, orethnic makeup, right, and
racial makeup.
We have people of asian descent, people of african descent, etc
(27:57):
.
Etc.
Um, I've, you know, we've hadepisodes on jewish identity in
the caribbean, and, um, all ofthat to say, our national
movements were really, in asense, to uphold our Black
populations, right, ones thatwere plagued by centuries of
enslavement, and wanting toreshape the memory of what was,
(28:20):
you know, determined by thecolonial bodies.
How successful do you thinkthese museums springing up post
the 60s?
How successful were they indoing that?
And then, you know, as an addon what were maybe some of the
challenges or what has evolvedsince then, to also uphold the
legacies of, you know, say,indian indentured servitude or,
(28:43):
you know, many of the otherethnic bodies we have servitude
or you know many of the other umethnic bodies we have.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, um, critically, we were.
They weren't very good attelling the story of everyone.
Um, simply because they were sofocused on dealing with the
binary.
How do you deal with tellingthe story of an island or
country that has come out ofthis colonial oppression and the
(29:13):
major colonial oppression wasabout enslavement and being a
colony how do you position yourpeople, the majority of whom are
of African descent for the mostpart, in building them up and
making them realize that theycould achieve everything?
So that early post-independentdevelopment of museums and art
(29:41):
galleries and heritageinstitutions was very much about
confronting that colonial pastand, in some doing, pushing
smaller groups marginalized interms of I'm dealing with size,
not necessarily economic cloutto the periphery.
(30:02):
And it's only in the last 20years, 30 years because we've
got now remember we're in 2024.
Wow, this is amazing for someof us.
So 24 years ago it was 2000.
10 years before that we're at1990.
So in the last 34 years,because we have, in a way,
(30:23):
successfully planted what it isto be an independent nation
state that we can begin to say,okay, what are the other stories
that we've not been telling andin fact, when you look in those
spaces, the mere fact thatyou've got museums or galleries
dedicated to the Jewish pastAsian and Asian meaning South
(30:51):
Asian as well so indentured andor China and or Java Also says
that that initial movementfailed them.
And we've got to acknowledgethat, even in terms of how those
national museums told the storyof women.
(31:12):
In most cases they didn't.
They told the stories of elitewomen for the most part, but not
of everyday women.
So part of the redress I'll sayin the last 20 years is about
bringing the marginal voicesfrom the periphery to the core
and giving them the space, and Ithink we're right now in that
(31:34):
particular period.
So at the Barbados Museum, ifyou were to go to our website,
we speak to some of how we'veengaged with those communities.
We're in the middle midst ofdoing an online digital
exhibition on East Indianmigration to Barbados, which
(31:58):
didn't happen during the periodof indentureship.
In fact, it's an early 1910,1920 migration directly from
India to Barbados, personslooking for economic opportunity
, but not indentured.
So it's different in whathappens in Jamaica, guyana,
Trinidad, suriname, for instance, but we recognize that there's
(32:23):
a need to tell that story andjust recently I did a program
where I spoke about the poorwhite community in Barbados,
which we refer to as red legs.
I can't remember what theJamaican term is in the French
(32:43):
islands it is petit biquet,small white but we need to
recognize and give voice tothose communities, because
they're still here with us andto understand how they see
themselves in relation to thenation state is extremely
important.
And then, of course, how do wedeal with women One?
(33:07):
How do we deal withever-marginalized groups,
whether they are hearing orsight-impaired?
How do we allow our exhibitionsto be accessible to them?
So these are still some of thethings that we're grappling with
now, but I think we've come along way, but there's so much
further that we need to go togive voice.
(33:30):
I remember a couple of years agogoing to National Museums
Jamaica, the Social HistoryMuseum and they had a really
fantastic exhibition on theearly development of scan mental
, something that you might nothave seen 30 years before
development of ska and mento,something that you might not
(33:51):
have seen 30 years before.
So there's a reason to then diveinto sub-genres and
sub-cultures, to understand andbring them out to the fore and
allow those stories to be told.
I think that is where we needto go.
So now the intersection betweenfilm and how film and
documentaries can help museumsreach new audiences and tell
(34:15):
those stories becomes animportant tool in how we develop
our interaction and activity.
And programming andaccessibility becomes critically
, critically important.
And the other aspect in thereis and we're still trying to
figure this out how best do weengage the community to find out
(34:39):
what they really want to see ata museum?
We've got to do that as well.
We can never make theassumption that we know best.
We do not.
So that's why co-creation is sofundamental as a tool of
engagement, where thecommunities become co-curators
(35:00):
with you in whatever you'redoing.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
As you were talking, I also thought of Trinidad's
Indian Caribbean Museum sprangup during 2006.
So you know very much in linewith this.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Very much in line.
Yeah, very much in line.
And then, of course, there arethose things that happened in
this century that we've not evendelved into properly.
There's no trade museum per se.
There isn't a museum ofmigration.
So we better understand whatmigration to Cuba, panama,
(35:39):
colombia, internal well, when Isay internal, internal Caribbean
migration, well, when I sayinternal, internal Caribbean
migration Barbadians to Trinidadin the 1890s and the early part
of the 20th century migrationsto Jamaica following United
Fruit Company around the turn ofthe century.
How does that alter populationsas well?
(36:00):
So there's so much more to betold and there's so many
different stories that we haveyet to explore.
Is that we've got to start thework now?
Because unfortunately we've,we're missing out on almost the
first-hand accounts of thepeople who are directly involved
in that.
It almost makes me think that,as a region, we need to have a
(36:26):
wider program, similar to whathappened in the States after the
depression.
Where was it working?
Was it working?
People's association went intodifferent spaces and simply
recorded the lived experience ofpeople, recognizing that it was
important enough to record it.
Maybe they didn't quite knowwhat to do with it when they
(36:46):
mere factly archived thatmaterial.
It meant that 20, 30, 40 yearslater, someone can go back to it
and have an understanding ofwhat all of that meant and write
books, have documentaries,create exhibits.
We need to be doing that now interms of labour movements,
(37:07):
migration, the progress of women, how do we deal with
marginalized groups?
You need to capture thatinformation now or else it's
going to be lost to us, and Ithink that's one of the key
things that museums can do.
Recognizing, of course, then itmeans that, as one of the
institutions, we need to beplaced firmly within the
(37:29):
developmental agenda of ourgovernment, which, for the most
part, only remembers cultureonce or twice a year, whether
it's carnival or some largernational event that they then
decide oh dear.
Yes, we need a culturalcomponent.
Cultural component has alwaysbeen here.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You just need to pay a bit more attention to it.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
I couldn't have you on this episode without talking
about, you know, more recentconversations around museums.
I think this, more so, hascontended with museums in the
quote movie.
You know when the curator islike, oh, this is from you know,
(38:20):
and then you know, rightfullyso, she gets clapped back on in
a sense and is like actually,this, this artifact that you
know you've held in your museumfor however long, was stolen,
right, and so I.
That's something that Inecessarily haven't thought
about, in terms of whatartifacts and things that we
(38:42):
hold, or if there have beenattempts to get artifacts back
from the UK, from France, andeven just how things have been
moved or repatriated back forour region.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
We're slowly in that beginning process of
repatriation, but there's a stepbefore that.
We actually have to have theengagement where we understand
well what's in your collectionthat speaks about us, speaks
(39:25):
about us.
In some instances a lot of themuseums in the former metropoles
don't know what they have.
I've been part of a grouprecently, or invited onto a
group recently, museums inScotland who are trying to
understand what's in theircollection in the Caribbean and
Africa, because in someinstances their curators aren't
trained in those areas so theydon't know or they haven't
(39:48):
really done the deep dive intotheir catalogs to understand the
provenance of what they have.
And then beginning to haveconversations with us in the
region, not only about what theobject is but what does it say.
And then the largerconversation about okay, great,
you have it, we don't.
(40:09):
How do we look at repatriation?
What does that look like?
And it might be an easierdiscussion in Scotland, who have
begun to repatriate over thelast almost two decades material
, as opposed to in England wherethey're so resistant, because
of course, if they start to godown one line, we all know that
(40:30):
the Greeks will remind them thatelegant marbles don't belong to
you.
There are spoils of war.
There's a need for some, youknow, reversal and reciprocity,
yes, but we're getting there.
So I know later on this yearthere's going to be a
repatriation of a naturalhistory object from Scotland to
(40:51):
Jamaica, which is going to beamazing.
So I look forward to when theyrelease that information.
I just mentioned it here to topeak interest and to tease um,
but shani roper at uwy mona,who's a curator, there is the
person to talk to about that.
But repatriation is beginning.
(41:13):
Those conversations arehappening, perhaps not as fast
as we would like but they'rehappening.
And even in the areas ofarchaeology we began to have
discussions about well, whatdoes archaeology look like when
we've got outside researcherscoming in?
There's need to talk about adecolonization around that as
(41:36):
well, because all of ourinstitutions, for the most part,
and our disciplines, especiallyarchaeology, are created out of
colonial context and, in fact,created because of colonization.
How do they, at the foundationallevels, begin to redress how
(41:56):
they were created for the future, how do they address the
imbalances and what doesdecolonization look like, not
only global north to globalsouth, but global south to
global south?
And there are going to be somedifficult discussions, but
necessary discussions, which wehave to have if we want to be
(42:21):
honest in the telling of thatstory.
Yeah, and I think that's wherewe're going.
We also recognize that there'sbeing pushback, whether it's
being termed as being anti-woke,whatever that is, but for me
it's about the telling of thetruth.
It's about no longer hidinghistorical facts, but being open
(42:47):
and transparent about them andseeing how they can lead to
healing on the one side, closingof trauma at the other, but
it's necessary.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
That brings me to you know one of my favorite
questions of all.
As our listeners will know, Iask this question at every
episode.
I think, and as you rightlypointed to, in terms of our
music, our festivals, carnival,et cetera, there is a way that
our popular culture holds ourhistory that, you know, people
(43:21):
might not always put the two andtwo together, and so my aim
through this question is alwaysto weed that out a little bit
and, you know, maybe get ourlisteners to read a novel or,
you know, listen to a song thatreferences a particular moment
in our history.
So is there something like thatfor you that is really
(43:42):
reflective of museums andnational identity coming up
during this period that ishighlighted in popular culture?
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Oh, wow, yes, and what I'm going to bring to mind
will reference both jamaica, butit has resonance.
So we have a small africangallery here at the museum um
that we created about a decadeago.
It was a temporary exhibitionthat stood up for 17 years
(44:12):
because people were sointerested, and then around 2000
we said, okay, we need to makethis a permanent gallery, and so
we expanded the gallery from200 square feet to 800 square
feet and sought to tell in verybroad brushstrokes about the
history of the continent, goingback from the development of
(44:36):
early hominids into Homo sapiensall the way up to what Africa
looks today.
And there is one exhibitionwhere we take people through.
We remind them of Bob Marley'ssong War, because it's an
(44:57):
Ethiopian scroll and mostpersons don't recognize that
that song was actually HaileSelassie's speech to the League
of Nations and in fact it'sbecause of the invasion that we
have Rastafari.
So I mean we use that to showhow global events continue to
(45:19):
shape us and how we in turncontinue to shape the world
around us and to remind peoplethat, though we might see
ourselves as small, our impacton the world is so much greater
than that and this is for me avery important message that
(45:42):
anyone coming through a museumin the region should leave
knowing our impact on the widerworld.
So War, for me, becomes one ofthose songs.
And then the ending text panelin that gallery is an image of
1980s.
(46:03):
I think it's Zimbabwe, and wehave Marley's song Zimbabwe and
reminding people of theinvitation at the time.
So to recognize connections butalso recognize resonance.
For me, the ever more importantobject I'll point to in our
(46:25):
museum is we have a small agatebead excavated from the enslaved
borough grown at Newton, whichis a plantation here Now.
This agate bead, I remindpeople, is globalization.
It's an agate bead that comesfrom India, made its way across
the Atlantic, was buried in thecoffin of an enslaved man who
(46:49):
was brought to an island in themid-Atlantic to grow an Asian
grass called sugarcane forprocess and export to Europe.
And this is the 18th century.
So globalization starts here.
Understand why we are where weare and the outsized role that
(47:11):
we have played in the world andwill continue to play.
To ground us as to who we are,to recognize that our story
doesn't begin and end withenslavement but is a much larger
story as well as a people.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
I will definitely add those to our Strictly Facts
syllabus, as well as yourco-edited book From Plantation
to Nation, which I think walksus through beautifully.
Some of you know not only thehistory of those founding
museums during our colonialperiod, but also the history of
museums like the NationalGallery in Jamaica, like the
(47:49):
Junkanoo Museum in Bahamas, thatare really, you know, doing the
work that we've been talkingabout today, showcasing the
histories of not just, you know,those who were colonized but
also those smaller subset groupswho, have, you know, didn't
necessarily get the earlyrecognition in our immediate
post-colonial period.
(48:10):
So definitely wanted tohighlight that as well and I'll
add it to our Sturley FactSyllabus and in the show notes,
I'll add it to our Sturley Packsyllabus and in the show notes.
And so for my final questionfor our conversation today,
we've talked about some of theways that museums have been
evolving, some of the work thatneeds to be done.
We are now in a period whereseveral islands have even, you
(48:32):
know, moved to Republic statusor, as you very well know,
course right, um, or you know,have been talking about moving
to republic status as well.
How do you think museums willreflect the last 50 ish, you
know, depending on which island,of course, but the last few
decades of us being independentfor the future, and you know
(48:55):
just what ways you see themeither shaping the future, using
things like technology toconnect across even the region
and the diaspora.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Let me take it first, starting with the movement
towards Republican status.
For me, the movement towardsRepublican status is the
continuation of a continuum.
From the time we were brought,forcibly brought here, we
resisted the various ways inwhich we have resisted and
manifested that resistance liesboth in physical rebellion moves
(49:33):
through to the establishment oftrade unions that want to have
workers and people's rights, tothe independence movement in the
1960s, through to republicanism.
So for me it's a continuum.
It's the last four or 500 yearscontinuum towards
(49:55):
self-government and self-rule,but in that recognizing that
we're not the only people inthis space.
But how do we bring along ourIndigenous communities in the
spaces in which they're stillfound?
How do we bring along ourmarginalized communities in the
spaces where they are?
And utilizing technology notonly to capture memory, but
(50:20):
utilizing technology to createcontent that allows us to tell
the interconnectedness of thosestories across our entire region
.
Our Caribbean Sea is not ablock.
Our Caribbean Sea is conduit toeach other and the various
(50:42):
stories that we've told overtime.
The fact that a national heroof Barbados is born in Trinidad,
barbadian parents, the factthat one of the major labor
leaders in Trinidad comes from asmaller island called Grenada
we need to tell theinterconnectedness of those
(51:04):
stories.
So technology allows us tocapture but also then allows us
to build up content.
Look forward to the day wherewe ourselves, together, create a
document we call the Caribbeanand not have to watch one on the
BBC that really doesn't reflectus.
(51:25):
Likewise, with podcasts likeyours, we go to that online
portal and download thosemultiple stories about us.
I think that's where technologyis pushing us and I think that's
where we need, where we need togo.
So podcasts like yours andothers being the Coursera or the
(51:52):
West Indiana of who we arebecomes necessary going forward.
And it's in the small and inthe big things, whether it's
about the complexities of therums that we create and drink,
or it's about how we take thatbasic product called carnel and
(52:17):
turn it into so many differentthings, whether it's dukkuna or
pime or congee or kenke, turncornmeal or cuckoo or palento,
you know it's.
It's about creating that andhaving access to it and
(52:39):
understanding the connectednessbetween them.
I think is where we're going,and technology will and should
allow us to do that.
It should make our storiesaccessible and our shared paths
accessible as well, and I thinkthat's where museums need to go.
We need to see ourselves ascontent creators across multiple
(53:02):
platforms, utilizing all media.
That is what we are In fact.
That makes us stand out interms of the heritage sphere in
the region.
We are content creators interms of the heritage sphere in
the region.
We are content creators becausewe house both two-dimensional
and three-dimensional, tangibleand intangible objects of our
(53:24):
past that can speak to a future,and I think that's where our
strength lies and it's how weneed to build on and build out
the telling of our story.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
I have no final words after that.
I think that was impeccablysaid.
Thank you for the work thatyou're doing for all of the
museum curators.
You know really helping toshape not only the education and
awareness that we have for theregion, the movements that we've
made across the world, reallyin our impact on the world, that
(53:56):
we've made across the worldreally in our impact on the
world, and really, just, youknow, changing the landscape of
how we define ourselves awayfrom, you know, what was
colonially imposed.
So thank you so much, mr Farmer, of course, for joining me for
this episode To our StrictlyFacts family.
I hope you enjoyed learning abit about museums, the history
of them and how they're movingforward, and I will, of course,
(54:20):
add all of the you know, manythings we talked about whether
it's the resources, the books,the songs and links, of course,
to the Barbados Museum andHistorical Society to our
syllabus and show notes for youall to check out yourself.
So again, thank you so much forlistening.
Thank you, mr Farmer, andlittle more everyone.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Yeah, thank you very much, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
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