August 6, 2025 • 45 mins
Welcome to a new season of Strong Leaders Serve—where we’re going beneath the buzzwords. This season, we’re moving past surface-level leadership advice to explore the mindset shifts, self-awareness, and practices that fuel real, lasting impact.
In this kickoff episode, Tamara Myles and Wes Adams—co-authors of Meaningful Work—join me to unpack what actually drives motivation and performance.
We dig into their research-backed framework, the Three Cs (community, contribution, and challenge), and explore the powerful concept of balanced autonomy—a practical way leaders can support growth without micromanaging, even in our ever evolving work environment.
Resources:
- Tamara and Wes's website: https://www.makeworkmeaningful.com
- Connect with Tamara on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamaramyles
- Connect with Wes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesadams1
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-m-schmidt/
Get 1-on-1 leadership support from Teri here: https://www.strongleadersserve.com/coaching
Set up an intro call with Teri: https://calendly.com/terischmidt/discoverycall
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey there.
Welcome back.
I hope you've had a greatsummer.
If you're in the NorthernHemisphere, I know I have had a
wonderful trip with my familyout to Northern Idaho.
Got to enjoy some time togetherand I'm happy to be back with
you here today for anotherseason of Strong Leaders Serve.
But I do have a confession tomake.
I've been getting a little bittired of reading posts on
(00:25):
LinkedIn that talk about leadingwith empathy.
Or creating psychological safetyor giving people autonomy.
I know it's pretty surprisingthat I would say I would be
tired of reading posts like thatafter all.
I wholeheartedly believe that itis good advice.
It is important advice, but ifit's everywhere on LinkedIn, why
(00:46):
hasn't our work culture changedmore?
That's what frustrates me a bit.
You see, the fact is we don'tneed more leadership buzzwords.
We need to talk about the deepershifts within the leader that
make those ideas actionable.
The mindset changes, theself-awareness, the emotional
regulation that turns theoryinto real sustainable
(01:09):
leadership.
So welcome to a new season ofstrong leaders.
Serve.
If you don't know me already,I'm Terry Schmidt.
I'm an executive and leadershipcoach, and this season we're
going to go beneath thebuzzwords.
We'll look past surface leveladvice and into the real work of
leadership, the kind thattransforms how you show up, not
(01:32):
just what you say.
And I can't think of a betterplace to start than today's
conversation.
I am joined by repeat guestTamara Miles and her co-author
Wes Adams.
They recently put a book intothe world titled, meaningful
Work, how to Ignite Passion andPerformance in Every Employee As
(01:53):
you may know, if you listen toepisode 1 0 5, Tamara is a
speaker, author, and researcherwho helps leaders create
thriving teams through thescience of human flourishing.
And our conversation togetherback a couple years ago, is one
of the episodes that I referpeople to the most.
Her co-author Wess is aleadership consultant and
(02:15):
positive psychology researcherfocused on building the
conditions for high performingvalues aligned teams, and their
research and hard won experienceshines a light on what truly
drives lasting motivation andperformance.
We'll revisit the three Csframework that Tamara shared
with us the first time she wason the show of Community
(02:38):
Contribution and Challenge.
And we'll also dig into a topicI found especially relevant in
today's workplace balancedautonomy.
We'll talk about what that is,why it matters, and how to
strike the right balance betweenclarity and freedom in today's
rapidly changing workplace.
Our conversation goes way beyondjust surface level tips and
(03:01):
tricks, and I hope you enjoy it.
So let's dive in.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (03:21):
Well, welcome Wes and tomorrow to the
Strong Leader Serve Podcast.
I should say.
Welcome back, Tamara.
I know you were on back inJanuary, 2023.
I can't believe it's been thatlong.
But that episode 1 0 5.
Like I was sharing before we goton is one that I frequently
direct people back to to listen.
So I'm excited to talk with bothof you today.
(03:43):
I know it's an exciting timewith the launch of your book,
meaningful Work, how to IgnitePassion and Performance in Every
Employee.
And so I'm excited to dig intojust a piece of that.
Because I could talk to you forhours about all the content, but
I'm excited to dig into just apiece of it and then of course,
encourage all listeners to goout and get a copy and read that
(04:06):
book'cause it is so valuable.
So with all that being said,welcome.
Thank you for being here today.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-202 (04:12):
Thanks so much for
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (04:13):
Great to be here.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (04:14):
great to be back.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (04:14):
Yeah.
Well, I'd love to we're gonna.
Do a little bit of review of thethree Cs, even though people can
go back and listen to more aboutthat on episode 1 0 5.
But before we dive into thatframework of meaningful work,
community contribution andchallenge, I'd love to hear more
about your stories and kind ofwhat drew each of you personally
(04:37):
to this topic.
So maybe we'll start with Tamaraand then would love to hear from
we.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (04:45):
So I.
I was drawn to the topic ofmeaningful work and specifically
how leaders can enable moremeaning at work of my
fundamental belief that work canprovide us with much more than a
paycheck, right?
I had spent before going back toschool, to graduate school,
(05:07):
which is where Wes and I met, Ihad spent the previous.
15 years or so, consulting,writing, and speaking about
productivity.
I had published my first bookand I was traveling and speaking
about productivity and I wasnoticing a virtuous cycle in
place.
You know, when we have systemsin place.
(05:29):
That help us focus on what trulymatters, right?
When we have, when we, we can bemore productive, then we have
more time and space to focus onmeaningful work.
And when work feels reallymeaningful to us, we are much
more engaged, motivated, andproductive.
So I wanted to understand thescience behind that cycle, but
(05:49):
even more than that, I wanted tounderstand how leaders can
foster that intentionally.
So that, that is what drew me tothat work.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (05:59):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Thank you.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (06:01):
have gone first.
I'm gonna have trouble followingthat.
Yeah.
I think so I, you know, I comefrom an entrepreneurial
background.
I early in my career started andlaunched a number of companies
and, and grew those.
And after a while moved moreinto social enterprise and
mission-driven businesses.
And when I did that, I think Inaively assumed that because
(06:22):
they were mission-driven, theywere all gonna be amazing places
to work, right?
that definitely was not thecase.
For various reasons.
And at the same time I was.
Expanding into working globallyand working, you know, with
people from different culturesand backgrounds and expectations
of work.
(06:43):
At one point I was leading ateam that was on five different
continents, and that was a hugelearning curve for me, and I
started getting reallyinterested in organizational
psychology and work design andhow do you actually deconstruct
what it takes to make a greatteam and.
You know, if having a missionisn't enough to make work
meaningful, what is?
(07:04):
And so that's what took me tograd school, which is where I
met Tamara.
And yeah, this idea ofmeaningful work, the thing that
drives us, you know, like what,what is it?
And, know, is it available inevery job or is it just for
certain people, you know?
And so I think that's what we'vebeen studying for the last
(07:24):
number of years.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (07:27):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And, and that is fascinating andI could probably do a whole
nother episode of on yourexperiences of having that team
on five different continents andhow, you know, people's
definition of work even varies.
wes-adams_1_07-16-20 (07:39):
different.
It was mind blowing for me.
There was like somebody inBrazil, which is where Tamara's
from?
Somebody in France, somebody inAustralia, somebody in the uk.
You know, and it was just theexpectations and the traditions
around even just how you getpaid and vacation time and what
it means to show up, how youcommunicate with each other.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (08:00):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-202 (08:00):
different perceptions of those things, so
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (08:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12063 (08:04):
to me.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_110 (08:05):
I can imagine.
I can imagine.
Please feel free to, to bringthat experience in as, as we
have the conversation today.
You know, and, and your pointalso about when you're in like
social enterprises or, ornonprofit work, just kind of
assuming that meaning would justbe there really resonated with
me.
I know tomorrow.
You know, a few years before wetalked, I had just closed a
(08:29):
nonprofit, so I, I founded andran a nonprofit for five years
and kind of assumed that, ofcourse this would be the most
meaningful work in my life.
And it was, I mean, it, it,there definitely, I felt like I
was making a contribution.
The challenge in the communityweren't necessarily there for
me, and that's why I think thatthat framework is, you know, was
(08:49):
such a light bulb moment for mepersonally when we spoke last
time.
So I wonder if, you know, again,just for anyone who hasn't had
an opportunity to hear you onother podcasts or get your book
yet and hasn't listened to thepast episode that we did, can
you just give us a briefintroduction into.
What you found and shared inyour book, and particularly
(09:12):
around the three Cs.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (09:14):
Yeah, we would love to.
So we, been doing this researchand we're continuing still to do
the study, but for the past fiveand a half, almost about years,
and we set out to study thespecific leadership.
Practices that foster meaning atwork, because that was a, an
(09:35):
understudied facet of meaningfulwork and we.
Kind of intuitively assumed andknew that leaders played a big
role in our individualexperience of meaning.
So we wanted to understand howmuch, and also, you know, how
can you intentionally fosterthat?
And what we found is that our48%, so almost half of our
(09:59):
experience of meaning at workcomes directly from what our
leaders do or fail to do.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (10:04):
Mm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (10:04):
So it's a huge impact, much
greater.
That was something thatsurprised us in the, in the
study.
The impact
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (10:10):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-20 (10:11):
greater than what we expected.
But we also found reallyspecific practices that increase
meaning at work.
And when, when we're speakingabout these practice and, and as
leadership practices, we, wedefine leadership really
broadly.
So even if you are not a peopleleader you can still lead
(10:31):
because you have influence youknow, in your colleagues on how
you show up at.
In a
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (10:35):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (10:35):
these practices can still apply to
you.
But the practices fall under theframework that we call the three
Cs of meaningful work, which arecommunity contribution and
challenge.
And I'll let Wes define eachone.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (10:50):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (10:52):
Yeah, so community is the belief that
you matter in an organization.
It's that sense of belonging.
The ability to show upauthentically and share your
full self and your full ideaswith the rest of the group.
Contribution is about.
Understanding how your workmatters, how it positively
impacts either, you know, largerorganizational goals, how you're
(11:15):
positively impacting customersor clients, or even just
benefiting your team, right?
What is the value of your workand understanding that and
challenge is the individualopportunity to learn and grow.
Am I stretching myself?
Am I.
Building capabilities, learningnew skills.
Am I moving in a direction thatmatters to me?
(11:37):
And what we found was that.
All three of these things areimportant.
There's kind of a multipliereffect that happens.
So when they're all present,they build on each other.
And a lot of the practices thatwe'll talk about touch on more
than one of those things at atime.
And as I think both you and Imentioned earlier, if one of
them is missing, it can cancelout the other two.
(11:59):
So if you work
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (12:00):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (12:00):
driven organization, your contribution
is high, but you have nochallenge or no community it can
really.
Wipe away whatever meaning wasmeant to come from, you know,
working in that place.
And so, you know, as Tamarasaid, we really have done a lot
of empirical research over thelast several years to understand
specifically what are thepractices that increase these
(12:21):
things.
And then also we are bothconsultants and we've been
working with companies for anumber of years implementing
these
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (12:29):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (12:29):
And measuring those results.
So it's
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (12:32):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (12:32):
pretty fun adventure.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (12:34):
Yeah, I bet.
And, and that really comesthrough in the book.
I have to, you know, tell you,and I, I think I wrote this in
the review of your book, but youcan tell that you are out there
doing it and you're out thereresearching it because the
practices that you provide inthe book for each of these areas
aren't just your run of themill.
(12:54):
Like things that you could read500 times on LinkedIn.
They are, you know, specificthey are.
Novel in some cases.
And they are in many casesfairly easy to implement.
It's just having the knowledgethat it's important to implement
it and having the courage to trynew things.
(13:15):
And like you said, Tamara, Ilove that you focused in the
book and in your researchspecifically on what leaders can
do as opposed to what theindividual employee needs to do
in order to make their workmeaningful.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (13:27):
Yeah, I mean there's, you know, the,
the.
The literature on meaningfulwork before our research was,
is, is very heavily focused onwhat individuals can do.
So how can I, you know, increasemy own sense of meaning that I
derive from my job?
And that's of course reallyimportant because we all, you
know, what's, what's reallymeaningful to me is not.
(13:49):
Always the same as what's reallymeaningful to you, Terry, or to
Wes, right?
And so the individual factor isreally important, but it's not
enough and it it's both and,right?
So if And and leaders are 48%together, we can really make a
difference.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (14:03):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, you know, talking aboutmeaningful work, I know one
thing you say in the book that Ikind of wanted to clear up.
Well, I wanted to highlight, soit could be cleared up because
you cleared up in the book, butthat meaningful work is not the
same as purposeful work.
And our listeners are allcompassionate driven leaders.
So how might these well-meaningleaders unintentionally over
(14:26):
rely on purpose and neglect theother pillars
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (14:30):
This
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_11 (14:30):
of community and challenge?
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (14:32):
Yeah, this is a great question because
it's, it's one that we get allthe time, and this idea of
having a purpose, having abigger goal is great.
You know, having a calling orwork that really has a higher
mission is excellent.
Not required for you to feel asense of contribution and,
we'll, we'll talk about that ina minute, but just having a
purpose, having a goal.
(14:54):
create any meaning.
It's seeing progress towardsthat purpose or goal Activates
that sense of purpose, Createsthat meaning.
And so even in a mission-drivenorganization, you know, I, I did
work.
Campaigning for L-G-B-T-Q rightsin a lot of the countries where
it's still illegal to be gay and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (15:14):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (15:14):
can be put in prison or even put to
death in a couple of them,right?
And that was very slow work.
Sometimes it took months oryears to see any change.
And that's very frustrating whenyou're not seeing any progress
towards your purpose or yourmission.
And so that's a way that thatcan sort of fall
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (15:32):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12063 (15:34):
On the other hand, you know what,
what we like to say is your jobdoesn't have to be your life's
calling for your work to feelworthwhile, right?
We talked to janitors,hairstylists software developers
who found a huge sense ofcontribution in their work
because either they felt likethey were contributing to their
colleagues or they were making adifference in the lives of
(15:56):
customers or the other peoplethat were around them.
And so.
There's a huge opportunity totap into that source, even if
you're not working at anonprofit or a Or a doctor or
whatever, you know, kind ofcomes to your mind as, you know,
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (16:12):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_ (16:12):
calling job.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-202 (16:15):
Right, right.
Yeah.
That reminds me of the story,and I'm trying to remember the
specifics about it, but I, Iknow it was during COVID and it
was an individual who wasworking, I think, maintaining
the server bank or, or somethinglike that.
Yes.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (16:30):
her Keisha in the book.
Her
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (16:32):
Okay.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (16:32):
name is.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (16:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Would you mind just quicklysharing.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (16:37):
open, we open the book with Kristen's
story, you know, after theintroduction.
Because it's, it's such apowerful example of
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (16:45):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (16:47):
job.
be meaningful, right?
If we think about a frame aboutit, highlights the impact,
connect with others, like allthe, all the things that,
generate the three Cs.
But Kristen is a, or was at thetime, she's no longer in that
role, but she was a worker at adata center in outside of
Toronto.
(17:07):
And when COVID and for Microsoftwhen COVID hit, you know, those,
those data center workers weredeemed essential, right?
Because basically all ourcommunications were done,
electronically via Zoom, email,FaceTime.
And so it was really importantthat the data centers be
operating right?
That the cloud, we had to keepthat up and running for medical
(17:29):
reasons, for, for schooling, forreally important essential
reasons.
And so Kristen was deemed anessential worker and she had to
go in.
Person to the data center everyday.
And data center workers worklong shifts.
Data centers are usually alittle bit remote from from big
(17:49):
cities for safety reasons.
So she was commuting, you know,working these long shifts when
most of her colleagues wereworking from home.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (17:58):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (17:58):
Her family she is an immigrant, so
she, her family's from adifferent country, so she was
feeling disconnected for herfrom her family and kind of
resenting having to come in andher experience was very common
with the data center workers.
And so Microsoft reached out tous and, and asked us to come in
and work with their data center.
(18:18):
Teams, which again, justhighlighting Microsoft is one of
the organizations we highlightin the book a lot.
It's one of the organizations westudy.
They're so intentional aboutbuilding a strong culture, a,
you know, growth mindsetculture, a caring culture or a
meaningful culture.
And so they, they had us come inand we worked with teams all
(18:39):
over the world actually duringthat time.
But we worked with Kristen'steam to unlock.
What makes work meaningful foreach, each individual.
And sometimes it was, you know,being able to provide for my
family it was the impact that,that they had on the family.
Sometimes it was the impact thatthey have on each other or
(19:00):
sometimes knowing that they'rein this together with their
colleagues.
And as everybody was sharingtheir stories and what makes
work meaningful for them.
Kristen just had this flash ofinsight and she realized that
keeping those servers runningwas literally saving lives
during
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (19:18):
Mm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (19:19):
It was how Were suppo, you know,
were able to communicate.
It's how kids were able to keeplearning and she was not just
connecting wires, she wasliterally connecting people.
And
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (19:31):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-202 (19:32):
really changed in that moment, how.
How she saw, how she sees herjob, how she saw her role, and
she took a post-it and wrotedown the ways that her job is
having an impact and, and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (19:46):
Mm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (19:47):
on her monitor.
We, we
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (19:49):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (19:50):
it actually inspired the cover of
the book.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (19:52):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (19:53):
and.
know that it's, it's not like,oh, that was great and it solved
all the problems and she neverfelt isolated again.
She did.
There were still moments.
She didn't wanna come in.
There were still moments shefelt demotivated and she would
read that.
Post it and remind
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (20:09):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (20:09):
of the bigger impact.
And it really
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (20:11):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (20:12):
her relationship to her job and, and
then
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (20:14):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (20:15):
that it has on her colleagues too,
because she was able tocontribute to their sense of
contribution to their sense ofTo highlighting for them why
their work really mattered.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (20:24):
Yeah, that's, that's interesting.
You know, even though she feltisolated maybe in the job, and
clearly the tie in withcontribution is very clear in
that story.
But the connection to thegreater community, it, it sounds
like as well, you know, inaddition to the community of her
coworkers, but the community
tamara-myles_1_07-16-202 (20:40):
Right.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_11 (20:40):
of the world in a sense.
It's an interesting, interestingtie in there as well.
So like I said, I had troublefiguring out where we wanted to
focus this conversation'cause Idon't wanna keep you for too
long.
And I chose to really dig intoyour topic of balanced autonomy
(21:01):
because I think, I mean,community has a special place in
my heart, and we could talkabout belonging and, and
community for a long time.
And, and we just talked aboutcontribution a little bit.
But I think the challenge pieceis one that leaders sometimes
struggle with.
And it's either, you know,they're too worried about being
a micromanager.
So they are on one end of thespectrum or they are, you know,
(21:25):
I need to delegate everythingand give, you know, all my team.
Full autonomy.
And because they do thatsometimes maybe there's not
enough clarity.
So I was really intrigued by theconcept of balance, autonomy,
and I, I thought we could spendsome time there.
So I'm curious, you know, whatmakes that so important?
And I'd love to hear aboutexamples of balanced autonomy
(21:48):
that you've seen in practice.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (21:51):
This is such a critical topic, I
think especially for the momentthat we're in because the things
that worked yesterday are notgonna work tomorrow.
We're going.
Through such rapid change AIdisruption.
know, we've got all of theseother uncertainties happening in
the world and we know a lot ofchanges coming, and so we can't
(22:12):
rely on people at the top tomake all the decisions we need
People at the ground level tofigure out new ways of doing
things and tap into thatcollective creativity and
innovation and persistence.
And so this idea of balancedautonomy relies on something
that we talk about at thebeginning of the book which is
alignment, and that's.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (22:33):
Okay.
wes-adams_1_07-16-202 (22:33):
Alignment around values in an
organization.
Have you clearly communicatedwhat you believe as an
organization and what thatactually means in practice?
Right?
What does if, if transparency isone of your values, what does
that mean to you?
Have you defined the behaviorsassociated with that?
And are the leaders of theorganization walking that talk?
(22:53):
And have you designed yourorganizational process around,
you know, those values, right?
If you have and then you cansort of tap into this balanced
autonomy, If you haven't.
This is actually something wetalk about outside of the three
Cs because it was a set ofpractices that didn't actually
(23:14):
increase meaning much, but wasthe fastest way to kill meaning
was to not do So we really As afoundation for Work and
necessary, but not sufficientpart.
And so assuming you What webelieve in the organization.
ahead and figure out your ownway to get there.
And of course this involves, youknow, some more coaching rather
(23:35):
than telling on behalf of theleader.
One of the organizations that westudied that does this really
well is the Ritz Carlton.
You know, they're famous for.
They're incredible service andthey've been around for over a
hundred years, you know, and youwould think an organization like
that has a very detailed set ofrules.
And, you know, they've learnedall the tricks and they know
exactly what to do in everysituation, but it's exactly the
(23:58):
opposite.
They have, set of guidingprinciples that they teach.
You know, when they onboardpeople, they spend two weeks
teaching them to people tellingstories about them so people
really understand them, and thenthey turn everybody loose and
say, your job is to build RitzCarlton customers for life.
Is to build relationships wherepeople are just like blown away
(24:21):
by the service and then theygive everybody$2,000 no
questions asked to address anycustomer issues or opportunities
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_ (24:29):
Hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (24:29):
that they
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_ (24:30):
Hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (24:30):
And so some of the stories there we
heard were.
You know, there was like acouple visiting for their 10th
anniversary and the Ritz Carltonemployees found out like what
the wedding cake and thedecorations were for their
original wedding and recreatedthat and surprised them with it.
You know, like somebody left hispassport in New York and like
one of the employees flew up.
(24:50):
Got it.
And flew back same day so thathe
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_ (24:53):
Wow.
wes-adams_1_07-16 (24:54):
international trip.
You know, crazy things like that
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (24:57):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (24:57):
nobody asked for a manager's permission
on.
You know, nobody had to do any,but they just.
There's that culture of balancedautonomy where
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (25:05):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12063 (25:06):
do those things that matter in a
trusted way.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (25:09):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And then does the balance reallycome in from the alignment?
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_ (25:15):
Mm-hmm.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (25:17):
Okay.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (25:18):
It's, it's the, the, the alignment
creates the boundaries, right?
Because I think where leadersstruggle with giving autonomy is
this all or nothing thinkingthat I either have to
micromanage or it's a free for
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (25:31):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (25:32):
and then
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-202 (25:32):
Right?
tamara-myles_1_07-16-20 (25:33):
control and nobody's gonna know and it's
gonna be anarchy.
Right?
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (25:36):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (25:37):
think the, the balance point.
The balance in the autonomy is,is the alignment, is
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (25:44):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (25:45):
What the boundaries are.
And, you know, a good way tothink about it, I think we
opened the book with a story ofmy daughter, who's my oldest
child, who is now about to turn20.
But when she was three, or four,you know, all of a sudden she
wanted to dress herself.
Right.
And you know, the morningroutine became a battle because
(26:08):
she wanted to wear her princesscostume with pajama pants and a
tiara and high heel shoes from,you know, princess preschool,
which was not.
And of course then we were lateand there was this whole thing,
and what we did was kind ofreorganize her closet with,
okay, this section is your playclothes, this is your school
(26:30):
clothes, this is your dress upclothes.
And so then we could give ourautonomy because we had created
the, the boundaries we hadaligned on.
Okay, when you get ready forschool in the morning, you can
choose from this.
Section of the closet and it wasreally easy.
And so she felt empowered.
She had the autonomy you know,we guarantee pretty much that
(26:53):
she wasn't gonna go to schoolwith inappropriate
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (26:56):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (26:57):
play clothes.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-202 (26:58):
Right.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (26:59):
it's just like a really simple
example to You know, but weoffer a lot in the book.
Southwest is another examplethat we highlight there.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (27:08):
Yeah, I, I, I think it, I think
sometimes that align, well,oftentimes, unfortunately, that
alignment piece might be missingor might not be done as
extensively as, like you weretalking about with Ritz Carlton.
It's done for multiple weeks,where these are specific stories
of how the values are in action.
These are, you know, the, theprinciples, what they look like
(27:29):
in real life and, and how youmight encounter a situation
that.
Requires you to make a decisionand, and these are, you know,
kind of ideas for appropriatedecisions that you can make.
Almost getting back to yourdaughter, you know, this is an
appropriate decision that youcan make for your choice of
school clothes.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (27:51):
Yeah, it means regularly telling the
stories of what your values looklike in
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (27:56):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-202 (27:57):
something we talk about in the alignment
chapter, but also in inonboarding when we talk about
recruiting and onboarding.
This idea of cultural mastery,right?
How are you bringing people intothe culture and values of the
organization by sharing whatthat looks like, by giving them
positive examples that they Andthey can imitate or learn from.
And that creates an environmentwhere we're always talking about
(28:19):
what we should be doing andhelps people move in that
direction.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (28:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (28:25):
And I think you'll see values came
up again and again and again andagain in our research,
storytelling values,storytelling around the values.
And it's really, you know, somepeople define culture of culture
as, you know what it's reallylike to work or how we do things
around here, right?
And that's directly related tovalues.
(28:45):
It's the values that drive thebehavior.
So whether or not they areintentionally defined and then,
you know, told and taught and,and storied around it.
They exist and so are
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (28:59):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (29:00):
are you do you have the values that
you want to have?
If you haven't done that work,it's so important to do it.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (29:07):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_120 (29:07):
a manager and you, you don't have
the authority to do the valueswork for the organization, let's
say you work for bigorganization, you can still do
that for your team, you know,
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (29:18):
Mm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (29:18):
your team to say, okay, what do we
care about?
What do we believe in?
What do what, how do we want towork together?
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (29:25):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (29:25):
show up here?
You can still do that.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (29:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I think it's definitelyvaluable in the onboarding
phase, but even like as a teamleader, if this is something
that you haven't done, coming upwith those kind of shared
agreements for how we're goingto work can be done at any, any
point.
And I think.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12063 (29:45):
At the
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2 (29:45):
Supports that autonomy.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (29:47):
you know when you bring a new team
member on, like whatever it is.
Yeah.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (29:51):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Speaking of new team members,I'm curious how does the
balanced autonomy maybe lookdifferent for someone who is new
to the team, new to theorganization as opposed to maybe
someone who has been there forseveral years?
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (30:10):
Yeah, I think, you know, career stage
differences, tenure with anorganization, past experience
doing certain types of work.
All of these things factor inand you have to obviously flex
so that you're giving peopleenough support.
Right.
We're not just like turningpeople loose and saying, go
figure it out.
You know, we also, and I thinkthis gets to some more of the
(30:32):
challenge chapter, right?
How do we have high expectationsof people and give them stretch
opportunities and also supportthem so that they can actually
achieve those things, right?
We're not just pushing peopleoutta the nest and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (30:45):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (30:46):
fly.
We're supporting them in thoseefforts to spread their wings.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (30:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I think that is one of themost challenging parts about
delegation.
One of the most fun parts too,if you'd like to be kind of a
detective and, and figure outexactly where that edge is.
For people that kind of, thatleading edge or, you know, back
to my education, roots ofVygotsky, talks about the zone
of proximal development, likewhere you have just that right
(31:13):
amount of challenge and how toscaffold that and, and all that.
But I.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (31:18):
like, so, so much research and
education and parenting.
You know, we
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (31:23):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (31:23):
at this concept that we called the
zone of possibility, right?
Which is this in the matrix.
It's like where highexpectations kind of meets high
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (31:32):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (31:33):
But you just mentioned research in
education.
There's research in parentingand I think it's just like human
development at any
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (31:42):
No.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (31:43):
of our lives.
Right?
We need, and the research onflow, Mihai chisem high Miha
Chisem
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (31:49):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (31:50):
on flow is exactly that.
It's where, you know, you, you.
You have the skills.
It's just slightly above yourskillset that what you're doing,
but you have, you have theskills and the support and all
that.
To do it.
And so I think that that's suchan important concept, whether
you are a leader, whether you'redeveloping yourself, whether
you're thinking about it as aparent, as an educator, as a
(32:12):
coach, to really try to findthat sweet spot of where, where,
where can you expect more ofpeople push them, believe in
them, give them those stretchassignments, but then obviously
offer the right amount ofsupport.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (32:29):
Yeah.
And I guess if I put myself inin the listener's shoes and I'm,
you know, I don't know, maybe amiddle manager with a ton of,
you know, tasks coming from alldifferent directions, pressure
coming from all differentdirections.
This could sound like a lot.
And you know, there could be atendency to just.
Say, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonnago back to the natural way I do
(32:52):
things, the easiest way to getthings done.
Why is it worth it for them tocare about balanced autonomy
and, and even bigger?
Why is it worth it for them tocare about meaningful work?
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (33:04):
Well, I have an answer.
I'm sure Wes' answer is,
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (33:06):
You go first.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (33:08):
So I think.
You know, I love Einstein'squote, the definition of
insanity is doing the same thingover and over again, expecting
different results, right?
And I think we start here, like,is is what you're doing
currently working for you?
Are the results great?
Is that what you want?
And if so, keep doing what we'redoing.
Like, we're not here to tellyou, like, reinvent the wheel,
like I'm sure you're doing a lotof things right.
(33:32):
So that's, that's one thing.
But the other thing is, youknow, most.
Most people that we work with,most people that I've coached or
that we consult with, and theleaders we interviewed really
want to be a great leader.
They care about people, theywant to develop their people.
(33:53):
want their people to perform attheir best, to bring out the
best in them.
They believe in them.
And so these are tools to helpyou do that, to help you bring
out the best, to help you pushpeople to, to excellence, to
help them perform better, tomotivate them.
And so I, I think most leaderswant to be that leader,
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (34:13):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (34:14):
so, so these are just resources to
help you do
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (34:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (34:48):
there and it's very uncomfortable.
And you know, if I'm putting mymiddle manager hat on, there's a
lot of pressure to perform,right?
And to hit our deliverables, tohit our objectives.
And when something doesn't gosmoothly, it can be really
frustrating.
You're like, oh, oh, this is notwhat I was expecting from this
project and now I'm reallyfrustrated.
(35:09):
And, you know, we're gonna haveto do this over and.
We don't necessarily build inthat idea that mistakes,
failures are part of the growthprocess, right?
This idea of growth mindset thatprobably a lot
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (35:25):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (35:25):
are familiar with, right?
Like if we're working on theassumption that 100% of the time
people are gonna deliver exactlywhat we need, we're always gonna
be disappointed
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (35:35):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (35:36):
that's just not how it works.
And so figuring out how to buildthat in to your calculation of.
should be happening.
That's not to say we should bemaking mistakes all the time and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (35:47):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (35:48):
but, but we want to be learning as we
go and thinking about how we'redeveloping people in addition to
having them deliver on their,their current responsibilities.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (35:59):
Yeah, and I, I think that development
and everything else thatmeaningful work builds whether
that is a, a greater sense ofwellbeing, trust community.
That makes hitting thosedeliverables so much easier and
avoids so many of the challengesthat often come up as the most
common challenges for leaders,whether that be how do I get,
(36:23):
how do I motivate someone toperform well?
Everything that you have in yourbook are like accelerants to
motivation.
You know, there, there are waysto make it so much easier to
motivate someone to get the workdone that you need to get done
to hit those results.
You know, how do I deal with alow performing team member?
Well, if you have thatfoundation of alignment and
(36:47):
meaningful work there's so muchto fall back on.
To help get that back on trackand, and help get that person to
a place where they can succeed.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (36:58):
Yeah, I think one of the things that
we probably should havementioned upfront is that we
continue to focus on meaningfulwork because it's the upstream
factor that
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (37:07):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (37:07):
the outcomes that we're looking for,
both individually, you know,things like job satisfaction and
engagement and wellbeing, butalso at the organizational
level.
It, you know, meaningful workvery clearly is a predictor of.
High performance, innovation,creativity.
There's newer research fromOxford showing that it drives
(37:28):
stock, price, profitability, allof these things.
So if we wanna succeed asbusiness leaders, this is
absolutely fundamental.
It's not a nice to have, it's amust have.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (37:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Agreed.
And, and you've ref, you've bothreferenced several times, like
the changing world that we're intoo.
Just one last question aboutthat, because I can see some
people thinking balancedautonomy.
Sounds great.
I can watch that person if Ihave, you know, a line of sight
to that person all the time.
(37:59):
That's great.
But I'm curious from yourperspective, what risks or
opportunities does a hybrid orremote work environment present
to balanced autonomy?
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (38:12):
So we, we actually started our
research right before thepandemic hit and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_ (38:19):
Hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (38:20):
the world of work has had many rapid
transformations since, and one,one of them was the, the whole
transition to hybrid and remoteand distributed.
And so.
The research we have continuedto do and the practices emerged
and have continued.
These were things organizationswere doing before, but then
(38:42):
adjusted and continued during,during, and now post COVID.
And so everything we talk about,including balanced autonomy, can
happen and has been happening.
And the examples we give areorganizations that are doing it
in hybrid environments.
I think one of the organizationswe, we include in the book is
HubSpot.
(39:03):
Which they have offices all overthe world they, the employees
have choice whether they wannabe in person fully remote or
hybrid employees.
And they, and they, they, Ithink we highlight them in the
chapter of balanced autonomyactually, because those
practices work.
(39:23):
and it, it's a little bit harderof course, when you don't have
visibility.
And so I think what.
What it means to do thesethings.
Let's say provide balancedautonomy in a hybrid environment
is a lot more intention and morecommunication.
Right.
But, but I think, I thinkautonomy specifically is a
(39:46):
practice that can thrive inhybrid environments, and that's
a necessity.
Because we are hybrid anddistributed, we need be able to
provide more.
Balance, autonomy, and you know,the
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (39:59):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_120 (40:00):
I think of the three Cs, the one
that suffers the most in ahybrid environment is community.
It's not impossible.
A lot of
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (40:06):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (40:07):
it, but I think autonomy is one that
thrives, can, can
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (40:12):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_120 (40:12):
a hybrid environment.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (40:14):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120638 (40:14):
I would add to that also, I think
going back to alignment, right?
I would say that probably we'repretty agnostic as far as are
you fully remote?
Are you doing a certain
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (40:24):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (40:25):
days?
Are you fully in person,whatever.
And every, every organization'sgonna be different.
can you clearly tie yourdecision around workplace design
to your values and what you'retrying to accomplish?
And then are you actually doingthe work of designing that time
around those things that you say
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (40:45):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120638 (40:45):
I think the trap that a lot of
companies are falling into issaying, well, we need to be in
person because people learn thatway and it's really critical for
our business.
And so they make people come inthree or four days a week, and
then they're on Zoom calls andnobody's talking to
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (40:58):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (40:59):
Right.
And that's, that's why peopleare upset and resisting the, all
the RTO mandates because peoplearen't thinking past, just
making people come into theoffice.
And so if you want people tocome in, which is great, it's
really important to buildrelationships, to do creative
work together to get inspiredaround, you know, the mission of
(41:20):
the organization.
Make sure you're allocating yourtime for those things, not just.
Treating it like any other day,right?
We have to be a lot morethoughtful about what we're
doing with our time together andintentional and planet, rather
than just say, people need tocome in.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (41:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I could not agree more.
Thank you.
Thank you for bringing up thatadditional point.
I always laugh when people talkabout, well, we're missing out
on the water coolerconversations, and then you go
witness a water cooler andeveryone has their earbuds in,
you know, and they're justwalking right by each other.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (41:56):
are happening behind the scenes, I
promise
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (41:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Well, excellent.
Well, like I said, we could goon for much longer, but I really
do appreciate both of your timeand, and digging into this a
little bit more.
And like I said, we're just veryskimming the surface of the
value of that is in the book.
And congrats again on sincedoing all the research since.
(42:20):
And synthesize it in a way thatit is so easy to implement and,
and try out.
And I think it's gonna have ahuge impact on those who read
it.
So thank you for your work.
Beyond getting the book, whereelse would you like to direct
people if they wanna learn moreabout your work or have you come
in and, and talk to theirorganization or anything like
(42:42):
that?
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (42:43):
Well, thank you.
We would love to come in andtalk to their organization.
The best way to find us is onour website, which is make work
meaningful.com.
We also have a free assessmentthere you can take to see where
you are on your meaning drivenleadership journey.
And we also have a lot ofresources that.
That you can use for free tohelp you get there.
(43:04):
And tools.
And then we're both also veryactive on social media, LinkedIn
and Instagram.
You can find us there.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16 (43:12):
Excellent.
Well, thank you again for yourtime.
I really appreciate it.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (43:15):
Thank
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (43:16):
you.
so much.
This has been great.
I hope this conversation withTamara and Wes challenge you to
think differently about whatmakes work meaningful and what
your role as a leader truly is.
Not just to set goals, not justto delegate tasks, but to
intentionally create theconditions where people can
(43:37):
belong, contribute, and grow.
What stood out to me was howeasily we can mistake purpose
for meaning.
How we assume that if themission is inspiring enough, the
rest will take care of itself.
But as tomorrow and West madeclear, that's not how meaning
works.
Meaning isn't delivered from thetop.
It's built through smalleveryday leadership practices,
(44:00):
especially how we definealignment, offer challenge, and
create room for autonomy.
And this is where we as leadersreally need to look inside
because creating that kind ofenvironment, one where autonomy
is balanced, feedback is clear,and values are alive in action,
requires more than leadershipskills.
(44:22):
It really requires a shift inhow we think, a move from
control to trust, from certaintyto curiosity, from reacting to
designing.
That's the deeper work ofleadership, and that's what
we'll keep exploring thisseason.
If this episode sparks somethingfor you, I'd love to hear about
it.
(44:42):
Feel free to reach out or shareit with a fellow leader who's
committed to leading with depthand intention.
Thanks for listening, and I'llsee you next time on Strong
Leaders Serve.
Hey there.
Welcome back.
I hope you've had a greatsummer.
If you're in the NorthernHemisphere, I know I have had a
wonderful trip with my familyout to Northern Idaho.
Got to enjoy some time togetherand I'm happy to be back with
you here today for anotherseason of Strong Leaders Serve.
But I do have a confession tomake.
I've been getting a little bittired of reading posts on
(00:25):
LinkedIn that talk about leadingwith empathy.
Or creating psychological safetyor giving people autonomy.
I know it's pretty surprisingthat I would say I would be
tired of reading posts like thatafter all.
I wholeheartedly believe that itis good advice.
It is important advice, but ifit's everywhere on LinkedIn, why
(00:46):
hasn't our work culture changedmore?
That's what frustrates me a bit.
You see, the fact is we don'tneed more leadership buzzwords.
We need to talk about the deepershifts within the leader that
make those ideas actionable.
The mindset changes, theself-awareness, the emotional
regulation that turns theoryinto real sustainable
(01:09):
leadership.
So welcome to a new season ofstrong leaders.
Serve.
If you don't know me already,I'm Terry Schmidt.
I'm an executive and leadershipcoach, and this season we're
going to go beneath thebuzzwords.
We'll look past surface leveladvice and into the real work of
leadership, the kind thattransforms how you show up, not
(01:32):
just what you say.
And I can't think of a betterplace to start than today's
conversation.
I am joined by repeat guestTamara Miles and her co-author
Wes Adams.
They recently put a book intothe world titled, meaningful
Work, how to Ignite Passion andPerformance in Every Employee As
(01:53):
you may know, if you listen toepisode 1 0 5, Tamara is a
speaker, author, and researcherwho helps leaders create
thriving teams through thescience of human flourishing.
And our conversation togetherback a couple years ago, is one
of the episodes that I referpeople to the most.
Her co-author Wess is aleadership consultant and
(02:15):
positive psychology researcherfocused on building the
conditions for high performingvalues aligned teams, and their
research and hard won experienceshines a light on what truly
drives lasting motivation andperformance.
We'll revisit the three Csframework that Tamara shared
with us the first time she wason the show of Community
(02:38):
Contribution and Challenge.
And we'll also dig into a topicI found especially relevant in
today's workplace balancedautonomy.
We'll talk about what that is,why it matters, and how to
strike the right balance betweenclarity and freedom in today's
rapidly changing workplace.
Our conversation goes way beyondjust surface level tips and
(03:01):
tricks, and I hope you enjoy it.
So let's dive in.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (03:21):
Well, welcome Wes and tomorrow to the
Strong Leader Serve Podcast.
I should say.
Welcome back, Tamara.
I know you were on back inJanuary, 2023.
I can't believe it's been thatlong.
But that episode 1 0 5.
Like I was sharing before we goton is one that I frequently
direct people back to to listen.
So I'm excited to talk with bothof you today.
(03:43):
I know it's an exciting timewith the launch of your book,
meaningful Work, how to IgnitePassion and Performance in Every
Employee.
And so I'm excited to dig intojust a piece of that.
Because I could talk to you forhours about all the content, but
I'm excited to dig into just apiece of it and then of course,
encourage all listeners to goout and get a copy and read that
(04:06):
book'cause it is so valuable.
So with all that being said,welcome.
Thank you for being here today.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-202 (04:12):
Thanks so much for
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (04:13):
Great to be here.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (04:14):
great to be back.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (04:14):
Yeah.
Well, I'd love to we're gonna.
Do a little bit of review of thethree Cs, even though people can
go back and listen to more aboutthat on episode 1 0 5.
But before we dive into thatframework of meaningful work,
community contribution andchallenge, I'd love to hear more
about your stories and kind ofwhat drew each of you personally
(04:37):
to this topic.
So maybe we'll start with Tamaraand then would love to hear from
we.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (04:45):
So I.
I was drawn to the topic ofmeaningful work and specifically
how leaders can enable moremeaning at work of my
fundamental belief that work canprovide us with much more than a
paycheck, right?
I had spent before going back toschool, to graduate school,
(05:07):
which is where Wes and I met, Ihad spent the previous.
15 years or so, consulting,writing, and speaking about
productivity.
I had published my first bookand I was traveling and speaking
about productivity and I wasnoticing a virtuous cycle in
place.
You know, when we have systemsin place.
(05:29):
That help us focus on what trulymatters, right?
When we have, when we, we can bemore productive, then we have
more time and space to focus onmeaningful work.
And when work feels reallymeaningful to us, we are much
more engaged, motivated, andproductive.
So I wanted to understand thescience behind that cycle, but
(05:49):
even more than that, I wanted tounderstand how leaders can
foster that intentionally.
So that, that is what drew me tothat work.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (05:59):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Thank you.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (06:01):
have gone first.
I'm gonna have trouble followingthat.
Yeah.
I think so I, you know, I comefrom an entrepreneurial
background.
I early in my career started andlaunched a number of companies
and, and grew those.
And after a while moved moreinto social enterprise and
mission-driven businesses.
And when I did that, I think Inaively assumed that because
(06:22):
they were mission-driven, theywere all gonna be amazing places
to work, right?
that definitely was not thecase.
For various reasons.
And at the same time I was.
Expanding into working globallyand working, you know, with
people from different culturesand backgrounds and expectations
of work.
(06:43):
At one point I was leading ateam that was on five different
continents, and that was a hugelearning curve for me, and I
started getting reallyinterested in organizational
psychology and work design andhow do you actually deconstruct
what it takes to make a greatteam and.
You know, if having a missionisn't enough to make work
meaningful, what is?
(07:04):
And so that's what took me tograd school, which is where I
met Tamara.
And yeah, this idea ofmeaningful work, the thing that
drives us, you know, like what,what is it?
And, know, is it available inevery job or is it just for
certain people, you know?
And so I think that's what we'vebeen studying for the last
(07:24):
number of years.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (07:27):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And, and that is fascinating andI could probably do a whole
nother episode of on yourexperiences of having that team
on five different continents andhow, you know, people's
definition of work even varies.
wes-adams_1_07-16-20 (07:39):
different.
It was mind blowing for me.
There was like somebody inBrazil, which is where Tamara's
from?
Somebody in France, somebody inAustralia, somebody in the uk.
You know, and it was just theexpectations and the traditions
around even just how you getpaid and vacation time and what
it means to show up, how youcommunicate with each other.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (08:00):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-202 (08:00):
different perceptions of those things, so
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (08:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12063 (08:04):
to me.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_110 (08:05):
I can imagine.
I can imagine.
Please feel free to, to bringthat experience in as, as we
have the conversation today.
You know, and, and your pointalso about when you're in like
social enterprises or, ornonprofit work, just kind of
assuming that meaning would justbe there really resonated with
me.
I know tomorrow.
You know, a few years before wetalked, I had just closed a
(08:29):
nonprofit, so I, I founded andran a nonprofit for five years
and kind of assumed that, ofcourse this would be the most
meaningful work in my life.
And it was, I mean, it, it,there definitely, I felt like I
was making a contribution.
The challenge in the communityweren't necessarily there for
me, and that's why I think thatthat framework is, you know, was
(08:49):
such a light bulb moment for mepersonally when we spoke last
time.
So I wonder if, you know, again,just for anyone who hasn't had
an opportunity to hear you onother podcasts or get your book
yet and hasn't listened to thepast episode that we did, can
you just give us a briefintroduction into.
What you found and shared inyour book, and particularly
(09:12):
around the three Cs.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (09:14):
Yeah, we would love to.
So we, been doing this researchand we're continuing still to do
the study, but for the past fiveand a half, almost about years,
and we set out to study thespecific leadership.
Practices that foster meaning atwork, because that was a, an
(09:35):
understudied facet of meaningfulwork and we.
Kind of intuitively assumed andknew that leaders played a big
role in our individualexperience of meaning.
So we wanted to understand howmuch, and also, you know, how
can you intentionally fosterthat?
And what we found is that our48%, so almost half of our
(09:59):
experience of meaning at workcomes directly from what our
leaders do or fail to do.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (10:04):
Mm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (10:04):
So it's a huge impact, much
greater.
That was something thatsurprised us in the, in the
study.
The impact
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (10:10):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-20 (10:11):
greater than what we expected.
But we also found reallyspecific practices that increase
meaning at work.
And when, when we're speakingabout these practice and, and as
leadership practices, we, wedefine leadership really
broadly.
So even if you are not a peopleleader you can still lead
(10:31):
because you have influence youknow, in your colleagues on how
you show up at.
In a
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (10:35):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (10:35):
these practices can still apply to
you.
But the practices fall under theframework that we call the three
Cs of meaningful work, which arecommunity contribution and
challenge.
And I'll let Wes define eachone.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (10:50):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (10:52):
Yeah, so community is the belief that
you matter in an organization.
It's that sense of belonging.
The ability to show upauthentically and share your
full self and your full ideaswith the rest of the group.
Contribution is about.
Understanding how your workmatters, how it positively
impacts either, you know, largerorganizational goals, how you're
(11:15):
positively impacting customersor clients, or even just
benefiting your team, right?
What is the value of your workand understanding that and
challenge is the individualopportunity to learn and grow.
Am I stretching myself?
Am I.
Building capabilities, learningnew skills.
Am I moving in a direction thatmatters to me?
(11:37):
And what we found was that.
All three of these things areimportant.
There's kind of a multipliereffect that happens.
So when they're all present,they build on each other.
And a lot of the practices thatwe'll talk about touch on more
than one of those things at atime.
And as I think both you and Imentioned earlier, if one of
them is missing, it can cancelout the other two.
(11:59):
So if you work
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (12:00):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (12:00):
driven organization, your contribution
is high, but you have nochallenge or no community it can
really.
Wipe away whatever meaning wasmeant to come from, you know,
working in that place.
And so, you know, as Tamarasaid, we really have done a lot
of empirical research over thelast several years to understand
specifically what are thepractices that increase these
(12:21):
things.
And then also we are bothconsultants and we've been
working with companies for anumber of years implementing
these
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (12:29):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (12:29):
And measuring those results.
So it's
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (12:32):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (12:32):
pretty fun adventure.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (12:34):
Yeah, I bet.
And, and that really comesthrough in the book.
I have to, you know, tell you,and I, I think I wrote this in
the review of your book, but youcan tell that you are out there
doing it and you're out thereresearching it because the
practices that you provide inthe book for each of these areas
aren't just your run of themill.
(12:54):
Like things that you could read500 times on LinkedIn.
They are, you know, specificthey are.
Novel in some cases.
And they are in many casesfairly easy to implement.
It's just having the knowledgethat it's important to implement
it and having the courage to trynew things.
(13:15):
And like you said, Tamara, Ilove that you focused in the
book and in your researchspecifically on what leaders can
do as opposed to what theindividual employee needs to do
in order to make their workmeaningful.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (13:27):
Yeah, I mean there's, you know, the,
the.
The literature on meaningfulwork before our research was,
is, is very heavily focused onwhat individuals can do.
So how can I, you know, increasemy own sense of meaning that I
derive from my job?
And that's of course reallyimportant because we all, you
know, what's, what's reallymeaningful to me is not.
(13:49):
Always the same as what's reallymeaningful to you, Terry, or to
Wes, right?
And so the individual factor isreally important, but it's not
enough and it it's both and,right?
So if And and leaders are 48%together, we can really make a
difference.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (14:03):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, you know, talking aboutmeaningful work, I know one
thing you say in the book that Ikind of wanted to clear up.
Well, I wanted to highlight, soit could be cleared up because
you cleared up in the book, butthat meaningful work is not the
same as purposeful work.
And our listeners are allcompassionate driven leaders.
So how might these well-meaningleaders unintentionally over
(14:26):
rely on purpose and neglect theother pillars
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (14:30):
This
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_11 (14:30):
of community and challenge?
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (14:32):
Yeah, this is a great question because
it's, it's one that we get allthe time, and this idea of
having a purpose, having abigger goal is great.
You know, having a calling orwork that really has a higher
mission is excellent.
Not required for you to feel asense of contribution and,
we'll, we'll talk about that ina minute, but just having a
purpose, having a goal.
(14:54):
create any meaning.
It's seeing progress towardsthat purpose or goal Activates
that sense of purpose, Createsthat meaning.
And so even in a mission-drivenorganization, you know, I, I did
work.
Campaigning for L-G-B-T-Q rightsin a lot of the countries where
it's still illegal to be gay and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (15:14):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (15:14):
can be put in prison or even put to
death in a couple of them,right?
And that was very slow work.
Sometimes it took months oryears to see any change.
And that's very frustrating whenyou're not seeing any progress
towards your purpose or yourmission.
And so that's a way that thatcan sort of fall
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (15:32):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12063 (15:34):
On the other hand, you know what,
what we like to say is your jobdoesn't have to be your life's
calling for your work to feelworthwhile, right?
We talked to janitors,hairstylists software developers
who found a huge sense ofcontribution in their work
because either they felt likethey were contributing to their
colleagues or they were making adifference in the lives of
(15:56):
customers or the other peoplethat were around them.
And so.
There's a huge opportunity totap into that source, even if
you're not working at anonprofit or a Or a doctor or
whatever, you know, kind ofcomes to your mind as, you know,
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (16:12):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_ (16:12):
calling job.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-202 (16:15):
Right, right.
Yeah.
That reminds me of the story,and I'm trying to remember the
specifics about it, but I, Iknow it was during COVID and it
was an individual who wasworking, I think, maintaining
the server bank or, or somethinglike that.
Yes.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (16:30):
her Keisha in the book.
Her
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (16:32):
Okay.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (16:32):
name is.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (16:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Would you mind just quicklysharing.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (16:37):
open, we open the book with Kristen's
story, you know, after theintroduction.
Because it's, it's such apowerful example of
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (16:45):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (16:47):
job.
be meaningful, right?
If we think about a frame aboutit, highlights the impact,
connect with others, like allthe, all the things that,
generate the three Cs.
But Kristen is a, or was at thetime, she's no longer in that
role, but she was a worker at adata center in outside of
Toronto.
(17:07):
And when COVID and for Microsoftwhen COVID hit, you know, those,
those data center workers weredeemed essential, right?
Because basically all ourcommunications were done,
electronically via Zoom, email,FaceTime.
And so it was really importantthat the data centers be
operating right?
That the cloud, we had to keepthat up and running for medical
(17:29):
reasons, for, for schooling, forreally important essential
reasons.
And so Kristen was deemed anessential worker and she had to
go in.
Person to the data center everyday.
And data center workers worklong shifts.
Data centers are usually alittle bit remote from from big
(17:49):
cities for safety reasons.
So she was commuting, you know,working these long shifts when
most of her colleagues wereworking from home.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (17:58):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (17:58):
Her family she is an immigrant, so
she, her family's from adifferent country, so she was
feeling disconnected for herfrom her family and kind of
resenting having to come in andher experience was very common
with the data center workers.
And so Microsoft reached out tous and, and asked us to come in
and work with their data center.
(18:18):
Teams, which again, justhighlighting Microsoft is one of
the organizations we highlightin the book a lot.
It's one of the organizations westudy.
They're so intentional aboutbuilding a strong culture, a,
you know, growth mindsetculture, a caring culture or a
meaningful culture.
And so they, they had us come inand we worked with teams all
(18:39):
over the world actually duringthat time.
But we worked with Kristen'steam to unlock.
What makes work meaningful foreach, each individual.
And sometimes it was, you know,being able to provide for my
family it was the impact that,that they had on the family.
Sometimes it was the impact thatthey have on each other or
(19:00):
sometimes knowing that they'rein this together with their
colleagues.
And as everybody was sharingtheir stories and what makes
work meaningful for them.
Kristen just had this flash ofinsight and she realized that
keeping those servers runningwas literally saving lives
during
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (19:18):
Mm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (19:19):
It was how Were suppo, you know,
were able to communicate.
It's how kids were able to keeplearning and she was not just
connecting wires, she wasliterally connecting people.
And
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (19:31):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-202 (19:32):
really changed in that moment, how.
How she saw, how she sees herjob, how she saw her role, and
she took a post-it and wrotedown the ways that her job is
having an impact and, and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (19:46):
Mm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (19:47):
on her monitor.
We, we
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (19:49):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (19:50):
it actually inspired the cover of
the book.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (19:52):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (19:53):
and.
know that it's, it's not like,oh, that was great and it solved
all the problems and she neverfelt isolated again.
She did.
There were still moments.
She didn't wanna come in.
There were still moments shefelt demotivated and she would
read that.
Post it and remind
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (20:09):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (20:09):
of the bigger impact.
And it really
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (20:11):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (20:12):
her relationship to her job and, and
then
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (20:14):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (20:15):
that it has on her colleagues too,
because she was able tocontribute to their sense of
contribution to their sense ofTo highlighting for them why
their work really mattered.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (20:24):
Yeah, that's, that's interesting.
You know, even though she feltisolated maybe in the job, and
clearly the tie in withcontribution is very clear in
that story.
But the connection to thegreater community, it, it sounds
like as well, you know, inaddition to the community of her
coworkers, but the community
tamara-myles_1_07-16-202 (20:40):
Right.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_11 (20:40):
of the world in a sense.
It's an interesting, interestingtie in there as well.
So like I said, I had troublefiguring out where we wanted to
focus this conversation'cause Idon't wanna keep you for too
long.
And I chose to really dig intoyour topic of balanced autonomy
(21:01):
because I think, I mean,community has a special place in
my heart, and we could talkabout belonging and, and
community for a long time.
And, and we just talked aboutcontribution a little bit.
But I think the challenge pieceis one that leaders sometimes
struggle with.
And it's either, you know,they're too worried about being
a micromanager.
So they are on one end of thespectrum or they are, you know,
(21:25):
I need to delegate everythingand give, you know, all my team.
Full autonomy.
And because they do thatsometimes maybe there's not
enough clarity.
So I was really intrigued by theconcept of balance, autonomy,
and I, I thought we could spendsome time there.
So I'm curious, you know, whatmakes that so important?
And I'd love to hear aboutexamples of balanced autonomy
(21:48):
that you've seen in practice.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (21:51):
This is such a critical topic, I
think especially for the momentthat we're in because the things
that worked yesterday are notgonna work tomorrow.
We're going.
Through such rapid change AIdisruption.
know, we've got all of theseother uncertainties happening in
the world and we know a lot ofchanges coming, and so we can't
(22:12):
rely on people at the top tomake all the decisions we need
People at the ground level tofigure out new ways of doing
things and tap into thatcollective creativity and
innovation and persistence.
And so this idea of balancedautonomy relies on something
that we talk about at thebeginning of the book which is
alignment, and that's.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (22:33):
Okay.
wes-adams_1_07-16-202 (22:33):
Alignment around values in an
organization.
Have you clearly communicatedwhat you believe as an
organization and what thatactually means in practice?
Right?
What does if, if transparency isone of your values, what does
that mean to you?
Have you defined the behaviorsassociated with that?
And are the leaders of theorganization walking that talk?
(22:53):
And have you designed yourorganizational process around,
you know, those values, right?
If you have and then you cansort of tap into this balanced
autonomy, If you haven't.
This is actually something wetalk about outside of the three
Cs because it was a set ofpractices that didn't actually
(23:14):
increase meaning much, but wasthe fastest way to kill meaning
was to not do So we really As afoundation for Work and
necessary, but not sufficientpart.
And so assuming you What webelieve in the organization.
ahead and figure out your ownway to get there.
And of course this involves, youknow, some more coaching rather
(23:35):
than telling on behalf of theleader.
One of the organizations that westudied that does this really
well is the Ritz Carlton.
You know, they're famous for.
They're incredible service andthey've been around for over a
hundred years, you know, and youwould think an organization like
that has a very detailed set ofrules.
And, you know, they've learnedall the tricks and they know
exactly what to do in everysituation, but it's exactly the
(23:58):
opposite.
They have, set of guidingprinciples that they teach.
You know, when they onboardpeople, they spend two weeks
teaching them to people tellingstories about them so people
really understand them, and thenthey turn everybody loose and
say, your job is to build RitzCarlton customers for life.
Is to build relationships wherepeople are just like blown away
(24:21):
by the service and then theygive everybody$2,000 no
questions asked to address anycustomer issues or opportunities
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_ (24:29):
Hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (24:29):
that they
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_ (24:30):
Hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (24:30):
And so some of the stories there we
heard were.
You know, there was like acouple visiting for their 10th
anniversary and the Ritz Carltonemployees found out like what
the wedding cake and thedecorations were for their
original wedding and recreatedthat and surprised them with it.
You know, like somebody left hispassport in New York and like
one of the employees flew up.
(24:50):
Got it.
And flew back same day so thathe
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_ (24:53):
Wow.
wes-adams_1_07-16 (24:54):
international trip.
You know, crazy things like that
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (24:57):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (24:57):
nobody asked for a manager's permission
on.
You know, nobody had to do any,but they just.
There's that culture of balancedautonomy where
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (25:05):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12063 (25:06):
do those things that matter in a
trusted way.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (25:09):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And then does the balance reallycome in from the alignment?
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_ (25:15):
Mm-hmm.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (25:17):
Okay.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (25:18):
It's, it's the, the, the alignment
creates the boundaries, right?
Because I think where leadersstruggle with giving autonomy is
this all or nothing thinkingthat I either have to
micromanage or it's a free for
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (25:31):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (25:32):
and then
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-202 (25:32):
Right?
tamara-myles_1_07-16-20 (25:33):
control and nobody's gonna know and it's
gonna be anarchy.
Right?
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (25:36):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (25:37):
think the, the balance point.
The balance in the autonomy is,is the alignment, is
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (25:44):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (25:45):
What the boundaries are.
And, you know, a good way tothink about it, I think we
opened the book with a story ofmy daughter, who's my oldest
child, who is now about to turn20.
But when she was three, or four,you know, all of a sudden she
wanted to dress herself.
Right.
And you know, the morningroutine became a battle because
(26:08):
she wanted to wear her princesscostume with pajama pants and a
tiara and high heel shoes from,you know, princess preschool,
which was not.
And of course then we were lateand there was this whole thing,
and what we did was kind ofreorganize her closet with,
okay, this section is your playclothes, this is your school
(26:30):
clothes, this is your dress upclothes.
And so then we could give ourautonomy because we had created
the, the boundaries we hadaligned on.
Okay, when you get ready forschool in the morning, you can
choose from this.
Section of the closet and it wasreally easy.
And so she felt empowered.
She had the autonomy you know,we guarantee pretty much that
(26:53):
she wasn't gonna go to schoolwith inappropriate
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (26:56):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (26:57):
play clothes.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-202 (26:58):
Right.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (26:59):
it's just like a really simple
example to You know, but weoffer a lot in the book.
Southwest is another examplethat we highlight there.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (27:08):
Yeah, I, I, I think it, I think
sometimes that align, well,oftentimes, unfortunately, that
alignment piece might be missingor might not be done as
extensively as, like you weretalking about with Ritz Carlton.
It's done for multiple weeks,where these are specific stories
of how the values are in action.
These are, you know, the, theprinciples, what they look like
(27:29):
in real life and, and how youmight encounter a situation
that.
Requires you to make a decisionand, and these are, you know,
kind of ideas for appropriatedecisions that you can make.
Almost getting back to yourdaughter, you know, this is an
appropriate decision that youcan make for your choice of
school clothes.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (27:51):
Yeah, it means regularly telling the
stories of what your values looklike in
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (27:56):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-202 (27:57):
something we talk about in the alignment
chapter, but also in inonboarding when we talk about
recruiting and onboarding.
This idea of cultural mastery,right?
How are you bringing people intothe culture and values of the
organization by sharing whatthat looks like, by giving them
positive examples that they Andthey can imitate or learn from.
And that creates an environmentwhere we're always talking about
(28:19):
what we should be doing andhelps people move in that
direction.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (28:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (28:25):
And I think you'll see values came
up again and again and again andagain in our research,
storytelling values,storytelling around the values.
And it's really, you know, somepeople define culture of culture
as, you know what it's reallylike to work or how we do things
around here, right?
And that's directly related tovalues.
(28:45):
It's the values that drive thebehavior.
So whether or not they areintentionally defined and then,
you know, told and taught and,and storied around it.
They exist and so are
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (28:59):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (29:00):
are you do you have the values that
you want to have?
If you haven't done that work,it's so important to do it.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (29:07):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_120 (29:07):
a manager and you, you don't have
the authority to do the valueswork for the organization, let's
say you work for bigorganization, you can still do
that for your team, you know,
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (29:18):
Mm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (29:18):
your team to say, okay, what do we
care about?
What do we believe in?
What do what, how do we want towork together?
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (29:25):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_ (29:25):
show up here?
You can still do that.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (29:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I think it's definitelyvaluable in the onboarding
phase, but even like as a teamleader, if this is something
that you haven't done, coming upwith those kind of shared
agreements for how we're goingto work can be done at any, any
point.
And I think.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12063 (29:45):
At the
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2 (29:45):
Supports that autonomy.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (29:47):
you know when you bring a new team
member on, like whatever it is.
Yeah.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (29:51):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Speaking of new team members,I'm curious how does the
balanced autonomy maybe lookdifferent for someone who is new
to the team, new to theorganization as opposed to maybe
someone who has been there forseveral years?
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (30:10):
Yeah, I think, you know, career stage
differences, tenure with anorganization, past experience
doing certain types of work.
All of these things factor inand you have to obviously flex
so that you're giving peopleenough support.
Right.
We're not just like turningpeople loose and saying, go
figure it out.
You know, we also, and I thinkthis gets to some more of the
(30:32):
challenge chapter, right?
How do we have high expectationsof people and give them stretch
opportunities and also supportthem so that they can actually
achieve those things, right?
We're not just pushing peopleoutta the nest and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (30:45):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (30:46):
fly.
We're supporting them in thoseefforts to spread their wings.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (30:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I think that is one of themost challenging parts about
delegation.
One of the most fun parts too,if you'd like to be kind of a
detective and, and figure outexactly where that edge is.
For people that kind of, thatleading edge or, you know, back
to my education, roots ofVygotsky, talks about the zone
of proximal development, likewhere you have just that right
(31:13):
amount of challenge and how toscaffold that and, and all that.
But I.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (31:18):
like, so, so much research and
education and parenting.
You know, we
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (31:23):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (31:23):
at this concept that we called the
zone of possibility, right?
Which is this in the matrix.
It's like where highexpectations kind of meets high
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (31:32):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (31:33):
But you just mentioned research in
education.
There's research in parentingand I think it's just like human
development at any
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_1 (31:42):
No.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (31:43):
of our lives.
Right?
We need, and the research onflow, Mihai chisem high Miha
Chisem
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (31:49):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (31:50):
on flow is exactly that.
It's where, you know, you, you.
You have the skills.
It's just slightly above yourskillset that what you're doing,
but you have, you have theskills and the support and all
that.
To do it.
And so I think that that's suchan important concept, whether
you are a leader, whether you'redeveloping yourself, whether
you're thinking about it as aparent, as an educator, as a
(32:12):
coach, to really try to findthat sweet spot of where, where,
where can you expect more ofpeople push them, believe in
them, give them those stretchassignments, but then obviously
offer the right amount ofsupport.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (32:29):
Yeah.
And I guess if I put myself inin the listener's shoes and I'm,
you know, I don't know, maybe amiddle manager with a ton of,
you know, tasks coming from alldifferent directions, pressure
coming from all differentdirections.
This could sound like a lot.
And you know, there could be atendency to just.
Say, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonnago back to the natural way I do
(32:52):
things, the easiest way to getthings done.
Why is it worth it for them tocare about balanced autonomy
and, and even bigger?
Why is it worth it for them tocare about meaningful work?
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (33:04):
Well, I have an answer.
I'm sure Wes' answer is,
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (33:06):
You go first.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (33:08):
So I think.
You know, I love Einstein'squote, the definition of
insanity is doing the same thingover and over again, expecting
different results, right?
And I think we start here, like,is is what you're doing
currently working for you?
Are the results great?
Is that what you want?
And if so, keep doing what we'redoing.
Like, we're not here to tellyou, like, reinvent the wheel,
like I'm sure you're doing a lotof things right.
(33:32):
So that's, that's one thing.
But the other thing is, youknow, most.
Most people that we work with,most people that I've coached or
that we consult with, and theleaders we interviewed really
want to be a great leader.
They care about people, theywant to develop their people.
(33:53):
want their people to perform attheir best, to bring out the
best in them.
They believe in them.
And so these are tools to helpyou do that, to help you bring
out the best, to help you pushpeople to, to excellence, to
help them perform better, tomotivate them.
And so I, I think most leaderswant to be that leader,
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (34:13):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (34:14):
so, so these are just resources to
help you do
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (34:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (34:48):
there and it's very uncomfortable.
And you know, if I'm putting mymiddle manager hat on, there's a
lot of pressure to perform,right?
And to hit our deliverables, tohit our objectives.
And when something doesn't gosmoothly, it can be really
frustrating.
You're like, oh, oh, this is notwhat I was expecting from this
project and now I'm reallyfrustrated.
(35:09):
And, you know, we're gonna haveto do this over and.
We don't necessarily build inthat idea that mistakes,
failures are part of the growthprocess, right?
This idea of growth mindset thatprobably a lot
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (35:25):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (35:25):
are familiar with, right?
Like if we're working on theassumption that 100% of the time
people are gonna deliver exactlywhat we need, we're always gonna
be disappointed
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (35:35):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (35:36):
that's just not how it works.
And so figuring out how to buildthat in to your calculation of.
should be happening.
That's not to say we should bemaking mistakes all the time and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (35:47):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (35:48):
but, but we want to be learning as we
go and thinking about how we'redeveloping people in addition to
having them deliver on their,their current responsibilities.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (35:59):
Yeah, and I, I think that development
and everything else thatmeaningful work builds whether
that is a, a greater sense ofwellbeing, trust community.
That makes hitting thosedeliverables so much easier and
avoids so many of the challengesthat often come up as the most
common challenges for leaders,whether that be how do I get,
(36:23):
how do I motivate someone toperform well?
Everything that you have in yourbook are like accelerants to
motivation.
You know, there, there are waysto make it so much easier to
motivate someone to get the workdone that you need to get done
to hit those results.
You know, how do I deal with alow performing team member?
Well, if you have thatfoundation of alignment and
(36:47):
meaningful work there's so muchto fall back on.
To help get that back on trackand, and help get that person to
a place where they can succeed.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (36:58):
Yeah, I think one of the things that
we probably should havementioned upfront is that we
continue to focus on meaningfulwork because it's the upstream
factor that
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (37:07):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (37:07):
the outcomes that we're looking for,
both individually, you know,things like job satisfaction and
engagement and wellbeing, butalso at the organizational
level.
It, you know, meaningful workvery clearly is a predictor of.
High performance, innovation,creativity.
There's newer research fromOxford showing that it drives
(37:28):
stock, price, profitability, allof these things.
So if we wanna succeed asbusiness leaders, this is
absolutely fundamental.
It's not a nice to have, it's amust have.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (37:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Agreed.
And, and you've ref, you've bothreferenced several times, like
the changing world that we're intoo.
Just one last question aboutthat, because I can see some
people thinking balancedautonomy.
Sounds great.
I can watch that person if Ihave, you know, a line of sight
to that person all the time.
(37:59):
That's great.
But I'm curious from yourperspective, what risks or
opportunities does a hybrid orremote work environment present
to balanced autonomy?
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_12 (38:12):
So we, we actually started our
research right before thepandemic hit and
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025_ (38:19):
Hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (38:20):
the world of work has had many rapid
transformations since, and one,one of them was the, the whole
transition to hybrid and remoteand distributed.
And so.
The research we have continuedto do and the practices emerged
and have continued.
These were things organizationswere doing before, but then
(38:42):
adjusted and continued during,during, and now post COVID.
And so everything we talk about,including balanced autonomy, can
happen and has been happening.
And the examples we give areorganizations that are doing it
in hybrid environments.
I think one of the organizationswe, we include in the book is
HubSpot.
(39:03):
Which they have offices all overthe world they, the employees
have choice whether they wannabe in person fully remote or
hybrid employees.
And they, and they, they, Ithink we highlight them in the
chapter of balanced autonomyactually, because those
practices work.
(39:23):
and it, it's a little bit harderof course, when you don't have
visibility.
And so I think what.
What it means to do thesethings.
Let's say provide balancedautonomy in a hybrid environment
is a lot more intention and morecommunication.
Right.
But, but I think, I thinkautonomy specifically is a
(39:46):
practice that can thrive inhybrid environments, and that's
a necessity.
Because we are hybrid anddistributed, we need be able to
provide more.
Balance, autonomy, and you know,the
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (39:59):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_120 (40:00):
I think of the three Cs, the one
that suffers the most in ahybrid environment is community.
It's not impossible.
A lot of
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (40:06):
Mm-hmm.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_1 (40:07):
it, but I think autonomy is one that
thrives, can, can
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (40:12):
Yeah.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025_120 (40:12):
a hybrid environment.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (40:14):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120638 (40:14):
I would add to that also, I think
going back to alignment, right?
I would say that probably we'repretty agnostic as far as are
you fully remote?
Are you doing a certain
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (40:24):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_12 (40:25):
days?
Are you fully in person,whatever.
And every, every organization'sgonna be different.
can you clearly tie yourdecision around workplace design
to your values and what you'retrying to accomplish?
And then are you actually doingthe work of designing that time
around those things that you say
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-20 (40:45):
Mm-hmm.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120638 (40:45):
I think the trap that a lot of
companies are falling into issaying, well, we need to be in
person because people learn thatway and it's really critical for
our business.
And so they make people come inthree or four days a week, and
then they're on Zoom calls andnobody's talking to
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (40:58):
Yeah.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1 (40:59):
Right.
And that's, that's why peopleare upset and resisting the, all
the RTO mandates because peoplearen't thinking past, just
making people come into theoffice.
And so if you want people tocome in, which is great, it's
really important to buildrelationships, to do creative
work together to get inspiredaround, you know, the mission of
(41:20):
the organization.
Make sure you're allocating yourtime for those things, not just.
Treating it like any other day,right?
We have to be a lot morethoughtful about what we're
doing with our time together andintentional and planet, rather
than just say, people need tocome in.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (41:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I could not agree more.
Thank you.
Thank you for bringing up thatadditional point.
I always laugh when people talkabout, well, we're missing out
on the water coolerconversations, and then you go
witness a water cooler andeveryone has their earbuds in,
you know, and they're justwalking right by each other.
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_1206 (41:56):
are happening behind the scenes, I
promise
teri-schmidt_1_07-16-2025 (41:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Well, excellent.
Well, like I said, we could goon for much longer, but I really
do appreciate both of your timeand, and digging into this a
little bit more.
And like I said, we're just veryskimming the surface of the
value of that is in the book.
And congrats again on sincedoing all the research since.
(42:20):
And synthesize it in a way thatit is so easy to implement and,
and try out.
And I think it's gonna have ahuge impact on those who read
it.
So thank you for your work.
Beyond getting the book, whereelse would you like to direct
people if they wanna learn moreabout your work or have you come
in and, and talk to theirorganization or anything like
(42:42):
that?
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (42:43):
Well, thank you.
We would love to come in andtalk to their organization.
The best way to find us is onour website, which is make work
meaningful.com.
We also have a free assessmentthere you can take to see where
you are on your meaning drivenleadership journey.
And we also have a lot ofresources that.
That you can use for free tohelp you get there.
(43:04):
And tools.
And then we're both also veryactive on social media, LinkedIn
and Instagram.
You can find us there.
teri-schmidt_1_07-16 (43:12):
Excellent.
Well, thank you again for yourtime.
I really appreciate it.
tamara-myles_1_07-16-2025 (43:15):
Thank
wes-adams_1_07-16-2025_120 (43:16):
you.
so much.
This has been great.
I hope this conversation withTamara and Wes challenge you to
think differently about whatmakes work meaningful and what
your role as a leader truly is.
Not just to set goals, not justto delegate tasks, but to
intentionally create theconditions where people can
(43:37):
belong, contribute, and grow.
What stood out to me was howeasily we can mistake purpose
for meaning.
How we assume that if themission is inspiring enough, the
rest will take care of itself.
But as tomorrow and West madeclear, that's not how meaning
works.
Meaning isn't delivered from thetop.
It's built through smalleveryday leadership practices,
(44:00):
especially how we definealignment, offer challenge, and
create room for autonomy.
And this is where we as leadersreally need to look inside
because creating that kind ofenvironment, one where autonomy
is balanced, feedback is clear,and values are alive in action,
requires more than leadershipskills.
(44:22):
It really requires a shift inhow we think, a move from
control to trust, from certaintyto curiosity, from reacting to
designing.
That's the deeper work ofleadership, and that's what
we'll keep exploring thisseason.
If this episode sparks somethingfor you, I'd love to hear about
it.
(44:42):
Feel free to reach out or shareit with a fellow leader who's
committed to leading with depthand intention.
Thanks for listening, and I'llsee you next time on Strong
Leaders Serve.
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