November 7, 2025 • 33 mins
Want a leadership edge that actually works when the pressure spikes? John sit down with Andrew Oxley, founder of Transforming Results, to unpack why the best bosses are both tough and deeply supportive—and how that balance creates real accountability without constant crackdowns. We challenge the myth that leadership keeps reinventing itself and focus on principles that still deliver: clarity, coaching, and consistency.
Across a fast-moving conversation, we explore how to build a culture where people hold themselves accountable, not because you wield authority, but because standards are clear and support is real. Andrew shares practical scripts for “connect before you correct,” how to give feedback to Gen Z without coddling, and why explaining the why behind systems unlocks autonomy and innovation. We dig into communication missteps—like asking “Any questions?”—and replace them with checks for understanding, explicit outcomes, and tight follow-through. You’ll hear stories that make the case for mentorship and peer networks, especially for task-first leaders who think they don’t need them.
We also reframe the Peter Principle: careers stall not from lack of technical skill but from unpracticed people skills—clarity, influence, and collaboration. Andrew outlines training that sticks through short, applied modules tied to operational goals, plus a free 90‑minute workshop designed to leave you energized with actionable moves. If you’ve ever wondered why your high standards aren’t translating to high performance, this is your playbook for turning authority into influence and pressure into progress.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a manager who’s ready to grow, and leave a quick review—your note helps more leaders find tools that actually move the needle.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Well, hello, and welcome to our podcast, Success,
Secrets, and Stories.
I'm your host, John Wondolowski,and I'm here with my co-host and
friend, Greg Powell.
Greg?
Hey everybody.
And when we put together thispodcast, we wanted to put out a
helping hand and help that nextgeneration and help answer the
(00:35):
question of what does it mean tobe a leader?
Today we want to talk about asubject that I think supports
that concept.
Well, in our continuingconversations about leadership,
we are we have a wonderfulopportunity with a guest, Andrew
Oxley.
And Andrew, your companytransformingresults.com and a
(00:59):
lot of what you've done in termsof teaching executives and also
the training classes and keynotespeaking.
A wonderful background.
Welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Thank you very much.
Appreciate you having me onhere, John.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
And uh I I think what I found very interesting
about your organization was howyou're trying to help teach
leaders the basics, startingpoints to understand how they're
being perceived is how theorganization's going to be
addressed.
You are the eyes and the ears ofleadership.
Maybe you can expand on that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Some years back I was working ina cell phone company, and I
don't know if you rememberNextel.
Uh I can talk about them becausethey're not around anymore.
Uh not because of the work wedid with them, of course, but
but I remember I was in in theiruh their training center, uh,
one of their customer servicecenters, a huge center, probably
300 customer service agents.
You remember when they used tohave customer service agents who
actually that had actual humanbeings, yeah.
(01:55):
Yeah, actual human beings.
And so anyway, he thisparticular uh learning
consultant was looking throughour material and he said, Well,
where's where's the new stuff?
And I'm like, Well, there is nonew stuff.
And he's like, But shouldn'tthere be new stuff?
I'm like, no, leadership isabout principles, and principles
don't change.
Now, I do believe that thecontext and the environment that
(02:15):
we're teaching leadership withinthese days is different today.
We one of my favorite comments Iget from leaders all the time
these days is, you know, youngpeople today.
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Uh and what follows is not usually No, I I hate that
intro, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:29):
Young people.
Yeah, young people today.
I'm pretty sure our parents saidthe same thing about us.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Yeah, I know they did.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Uh so but there are some unique differences today to
Gen Z and of course all thedifferent uh you know
generations that are in theworkforce today.
It's a very complicated mix.
And so if you're if you're aleader listening to this, you
have a very complicated job,without question.
But there are certain principlesthat have not changed over time.
Uh I think what's actuallyhappened is that leadership
(02:55):
hasn't so much changed.
It's the urgency and thenecessity to lead well has
become incredibly important.
But what you and I probablytolerated when we got started in
our career is not tolerable anylonger for young people.
They're just, they just won'tput up with it.
And they'll go elsewhere.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
And and I think the uh interesting word that you
used and talked aboutspecifically is something that
I've talked about: accountability, responsibility, (03:19):
undefined
and and how important that isfor leadership to try to set
that example.
Maybe you can talk a little bitabout the example and the impact
of that approach ofaccountability.
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Yeah.
And you know, I get this.
In fact, I did a webinaryesterday for a group of
clients, and and the number onechallenge they were talking
about was accountability.
People just won't be, you know,there's no accountability
anymore.
And I'm like, well, first ofall, uh accountability in
general, holding peopleaccountable requires you to lean
into the authority of yourposition, which diminishes the
influence you have with yourteam.
(03:53):
What we really want to do iscreate a culture of
accountability where people holdthemselves accountable.
Now, the challenge that leadershave, especially if you're if
you're an early leader on this,listening to this podcast, you
don't get it because you no oneever had to hold you
accountable.
Nobody ever had to remind you todo stuff.
And if your boss did something,you just did it.
So when I'm talking to leaders,I'll say to them, well, you know
(04:15):
what your problem is.
And they think they know.
And I'm like, no, it's it's thatyou think you're normal.
You're you're not normal.
You're abnormal by becausenormal is a statistical
reference to likelihood ofoccurring.
You don't get into leadership bybeing normal, you get into
leadership by being not normal.
(04:35):
And so the fact that you havepeople who are not acting the
way you acted when you were uhperhaps reporting to uh someone
in your current position is umprobably to be expected to some
degree.
It now it's not what we want,and it's not what we should
expect from people, but it isprobably, you know, more going
to be the norm.
(04:55):
And this is just a huge, likemind-blowing thing for most
early leaders.
They're like, what do you meanyou don't want to do what I just
asked you to do?
So we have to start with thatlevel set that um we want to
create a culture ofaccountability, and we need to
understand that just because I'mgetting something, uh, it's not
that it's necessarily abnormal,it's just not desired.
(05:17):
So, how do you create thatculture of accountability with a
team, right?
And I think that the problem weget into is that we allow our
frustrations to uh spill overinto the way that we work with
people.
And nothing good usually comesfrom that when we lose control
of our speech and our tone andour the way we're interacting
(05:38):
with people.
And at the same time, youshouldn't tolerate bad behavior
or uh or uh behaviors that arenot going to lead to the results
that are really required.
So we have this rub wherepeople, you know, sometimes
they're trying to be nice topeople and encourage them, and
then they get tired of that andthey just bring the hammer down
and they tell them what theyjust has to happen, and and then
(05:58):
they feel guilty that they didthat, and the people get upset
with them, so they go back tobeing nice again, and I they're
traveling between these twoextremes, right?
And as you know, John, itrequires a balance.
Yeah, I would argue, and I'veI've I've done this exercise
with thousands of leaders, thatthe best boss we've ever had,
the best boss, uh, was tough.
(06:20):
They were hard to work for, theywere not easy, they didn't, they
didn't have low expectations,they didn't coddle us, they but
they were supportive, uh, theycoached, uh, they helped us when
we needed help, but they pushedus, they demanded a lot from us.
And so that's the model that weteach leaders to lean into, and
we call it being the guide,somebody who is uh has clear
(06:43):
standards and expectations, butthey support us in the journey.
And young people today wantthis.
They want to be coached, theywant to be developed, they want
it, they don't want to just betold just go do it because I
said so.
SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
And unfortunately, I think there's a little bit of a
negative effect.
COVID, I think, stepped back alot of development, uh, a lot of
the social norms that helps thatculture approach.
A little bit about how theeducation field is not as, I
don't know, stringent.
They're more you know, pass-failrather than A, B, C, you know,
(07:19):
A, N F, a D, that kind of impactof grading.
It's harder now to try to bringthat kind of culture, or or
haven't you seen that in termsof the effect of the R.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Yeah, no, I have.
In fact, someone just came outwith some really great research
around Gen Z.
Gen Z is uh to some degree quitefragile.
Um in terms of they've neverbeen told, they've been told
they're wonderful, and they'venever been told that they
failed.
So many of them have neverfailed at anything in their
lives.
And uh if you do anything of anyconsequence over any length of
(07:52):
time, you're gonna fail at somecrap.
You're gonna, you're gonna messup.
And for many people, it's thatthey just they don't it's the
first time they've experiencedthat.
And so one of the things asleaders we need to understand is
that this may be the first timethey've been told by someone
that they're not good atsomething, that they're not
meeting expectations, thatthey're not doing what they need
(08:14):
to be doing.
And so uh, you know, complainingabout that does not change it.
We need to be cognizant of thefact that, okay, so when I'm
giving feedback to this person,I need to first make sure I
connect with them and theyunderstand how much I want them
to be successful.
That's the supportive side.
Because when I try to holdpeople accountable without them
(08:36):
believing that I'm in this withthem and I want them to be
successful, the words just washaway.
And they think you just you'rejust beating them up and you
don't care.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Yeah.
I think the the element ofsuccess is through failure.
Like Edison was famous fortalking about how many failures
he had before he had successes.
Yeah.
And and having not so much tocoddle that generation, but to
encourage the understanding thatfailure is part of growth.
That that seems to be a bigchallenge for them to accept.
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Yeah, I think it is.
And I love the saying that youbefore you correct, you have to
connect.
You have to connect with peoplebefore you correct.
And when we try to correctwithout connection, um, it it I
don't know if it ever reallyworked well, but it really
doesn't work well with thecurrent generation that's coming
into the workforce, right?
They are uh they are highlyautonomous.
(09:28):
They uh they believe that theydon't need to follow systems and
rules.
And, you know, we were told youhad to, and they're like, why?
Like, why do we have to?
And because I said so is not agood answer, but is that many of
the systems and rules that thatare in place, they're just not
necessary, especially for theyounger generation.
They can work around thosethings.
Now, this is not new.
(09:49):
You know, there's uh there's agreat story, and and you know,
you've watched the stories aboutNASA and when we were trying to
put a man on the moon, and Iprobably have seen those, Apollo
13.
And the interesting thing aboutthose movies, they always
represent the engineers and thepeople who are doing the work as
people who were, you know, sortof, you know, got a lot of
experience and stuff.
Actually, if you go back andread about it, nothing could
(10:12):
have been further from thetruth.
What NASA figured out was thatthe people who were going to be
able to figure out how to dosomething that we'd never done
before were actually 23 yearsold.
They went to MIT, they went toGeorgia Tech, they went to all
these fabulous schools, and theythey had the the grizzled
professionals mentoring theseindividuals, but the people that
(10:33):
figured it out were really,really young.
Sometimes people say things areso different.
Now, I I think they'redifferent, but there's some
trends that you look back andyou go, this was true in the
60s.
So, how do we lean into thatcreativity and that that that
belief that they can do thingsand they're not constrained by
the rules rather than beingfrustrated by that is what I
(10:56):
think one of our challenges is.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
I think one of the other parts too as a leader is
to understand.
Usually they a leader is someonewho understands the scope of
work, is very productive at thatscope of work.
But leader of people is adifferent kind of profession.
SPEAKER_01 (11:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
And I I think the biggest skill to teach someone
who's in that in that newcategory, self-awareness.
How are you coming across?
What do they hear when youspeak?
It's not recording yourself, andbecause the essence of a true
self, they can tell wheneverit's a performance versus an
actual application.
So communication is like thebuzzword that we always use in
(11:36):
every one of our trainingprograms, but it's the reality.
How do you emphasize the powerof communication and the
different platforms to get thatmessage across?
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Yeah, we tell our clients that leadership is more
art than science.
And the problem that we we havethis wonderful tool these days,
uh, Chat GPT or PerceptionPersepiti or whatever the the
different AI models you'reusing.
And when you when you putquestions in there, you'll get
the science.
You'll get the science of how todeal with a particular problem
(12:08):
or challenge, but you won't getthe art.
And you're right, you must beauthentic.
One of the things we teach ourclients is we teach them to
discover their own leadershipDNA.
Like you're gonna leaddifferently than me.
Now the principles won't change,but you're I always client asks
me how to do something, I'mlike, okay, so here's how I
would do it, and here's how Iwould say it, but let's
investigate how you need to dothat because you won't be able
(12:29):
to say it the way I do.
Right.
So you have to be authentic.
I've I've never met a leader whodoesn't think they're a great
communicator because we alwaysknow what we're saying, and it's
clear in my head.
Why isn't it clear when it comesout?
Sure.
Uh, but I would say we are notclear.
We are not clear in ourexpectations, we are not clear
in our desires.
A lot of times what people feelis, you know, just the heat of
(12:49):
when when they're not doing whatwe want them to do.
Uh and so we ask that infamousquestion, you know, do you have
any questions?
And they always say, well, no.
And we think that means no.
And it means please go away,boss.
You're embarrassing me.
And I I'm gonna try to figurethis out on my own now, right?
Uh so yeah, I don't think uh wehave clarity quite often.
(13:10):
Um, and when I make that theirfault, um, one of my first
preachers told me, when you havea problem and you make it the
other person's fault, you areabsolved of all responsibility
and all learning that couldoccur.
Right.
Um so I have I if if there's alack of communication, lack of
(13:31):
clarity, and I say, well,they're just not listening, I'm
like, well, why is that?
Why are they not listening?
Right.
And I say, well, because they'reyoung people.
Well, okay.
Once again, right?
Uh no, what what what is it thatI need to do differently?
Now, the truth is if I doeverything I know how to do and
I I research and I then thenmaybe it is them.
But we jump to that it's themanswer so quickly.
(13:53):
I have found it's almost alwaysme.
I I can't speak for anyone else.
It's almost always me.
unknown (13:58):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (13:58):
I I think I've seen the same thing.
But my favorite memory is mydaughter asking me a math
question, and and my engineeringmind's like going 100 miles an
hour, and it's like, well, youdo this and you do this, and
what this really implies.
And after I drink, you know, Ihad the word dribble for a
while, she stopped me and said,What's the answer?
I'm like, Well, there's more toit.
12.
(14:19):
Okay, 12.
Go, go.
You have to invest on whetherthe message is coming across.
And that is something that Ilearned in a 360 format where
you send out and ask people, howam I doing?
What am I me, the manager, theleader?
How am I doing?
(14:40):
How am I coming across?
And it is an eye-opener whenthey're honest.
Because they they know thedifference between giving a
political so that you don't comeback on them, and they know
better than that no one it isanonymous.
You'll never know who wrote itin.
Yeah, you'll know.
But when you actually understandthat they're giving you a gift
(15:00):
of their input on how you'reactually conducting yourself,
put yourself in that positionthat's vulnerable.
Maybe you can talk about howthat really impacts leadership.
If you're really trying toengage, what does that really
feel like?
SPEAKER_01 (15:14):
Yeah, I think that so often, in fact, one of the
very first things we do whenwe're working with leaders is we
work with them on what they needto do differently so that they
can earn the moral authority tobe able to coach other people.
Uh if if I'm if I'm working withyou and you're my boss and I can
see that you're trying to dosome things differently, you're
talking about, then when youturn around and start talking to
(15:35):
me about what I'm wanting youwant me to do differently, it
has a different tenor and adifferent feeling to it than if
it's like I'm I'm here to fixAndrew.
I had a CEO call me up one timeand he said, I need you to help
me fix my people.
And I said, How do you knowthey're broke?
And he's like, Well, you know,and we had a conversation and I
said, I'm not sure it's yourpeople I need to work with.
And yes, he didn't end upworking with him.
(15:59):
Um but yeah, so it, you know, tobe authentic and to earn that
right, I mean, it's it's like,what do I need to be doing
differently?
Now, now I give you a littleexample of this.
There are two types of peopleyou can go and ask that question
of, right?
Because you can do a 360, right?
But you could also um go and askpeople like, where do you
where's one area you feel like Icould improve?
(16:21):
Now, I can go to someone whosees the world much the way I
do, and they will provide mewhat I call the cold comfort of
validation.
Right.
Or they'll they'll validate me,I think you're great, and I'm
like, well, I'm having a problemwith this person over here, and
they're like, Yeah, me too.
So, and we're awesome, so it'snot us.
Or I could go to someone whosees the world differently and
they'll say, Well, Andrew, youknow, what I've noticed is, and
(16:44):
if I argue with them, they'rejust gonna stop trying to help
me.
And the the likelihood of havingpeople in your life who will
speak the truth to you withlove, um is is low.
I mean, there's only a handfulof people who will do that for
you.
I right I I always say,hopefully you're married to one,
you know, because uh I know Ican go home and and my wife will
(17:08):
tell me, you know, uh what Idon't want to hear sometimes,
but it's what I but it's what Ineed to hear, right?
Right?
It isn't what I will want tohear sometimes.
What I want to hear is I'mgreat, right?
What I need to hear is, hey,here's an area that you could
perhaps improve.
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
And I think the the other part that I've seen that
is really frustrating is thelack of interest in in groups,
uh engineering groups, socialgroups, that time to take out of
your schedule as a new manager,a new supervisor, and go into
organizations like I there's anengineering team that I really
enjoyed, the exchange andtalking to peers.
(17:47):
It's the power of working withthe peers in your organization,
not only in a social sense withother people from other
companies, but the peers, thesupervisors and the managers
that in your own organizationthat sometimes are that clarity
of leadership.
And they can give you some realinput at the same time.
(18:09):
How do we try to teach thatelement of social skills to
understand the power of thatconnection between peers?
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Yeah, and I think COVID, you mentioned COVID
earlier.
COVID made this even worse.
We sent people home, people gotused to working from home.
And and let me let me say ifyou're a young leader on this,
uh listening to this podcast andyou're you're resisting going
back into work, or you thinkit's so let me tell you, your
progress in your career will beamplified and accelerated by
this by the contact you havewith people around you.
(18:40):
Um sitting in a room in a vacuumby yourself, you you've got to
have people who are willing toinvest in you and work with you.
So I strongly encourage you toto to identify those.
Uh identify people you respect.
Now, find somebody who canmentor you.
Your progress will accelerate.
Now, it can be your boss, yourboss can mentor you for sure,
(19:00):
but who are some other peoplethat could perhaps mentor you,
give you uh give you insightsand give you direction as you
progress in your career?
Social networks, you mentionedthose.
If you were to think about this,uh, and this is uh sort of one
of the models we use in ourbook, The Four Faces of
Frustration, some people aremore people-oriented and some
people are more task-oriented.
Um, everyone would like to thinkthey're balanced.
(19:21):
They're not, by the way.
Under stress, we move to one endor the other, right?
And so if I'm a people-orientedperson, I probably like those
social things.
And uh if I'm a task-orientedperson, I'm like, you know,
that's a bit of a waste of time.
I can just get the work done andwhat do you want from me?
So if you feel like you don'tneed that social contact, I
would argue you're the one whodoes need it because hardly
(19:44):
anybody gets fired for theirtechnical skills.
Uh hardly anybody stalls out intheir career because of their
technical skills.
They actually stall out becausetheir inability to get along
with others and to work it as ateam and to accomplish things in
a collaborative and empoweredenvironment.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
That that is such a key point because technology and
and doing the job and actuallyhands-on, you're leading those
people doing those tasks.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:09):
You're not you're not the boiler operator.
You're the one in charge of theengineering department.
There's that kind of moving awayfrom your technical strengths
and actually having theopportunity to lead people.
Now, the part that I thought wasreally interesting is the
engineering field has nationalorganizations.
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
And I try to explain to people that the national
organizations are important, nottrying to promote yourself as an
ego and a boost, butconnections, networking, for
them to understand what'sinvolved, that maybe your
organization's really doing wellright now.
But I can name probably fivecompanies that still exist that
(20:54):
I remember starting off in the80s that are still around that I
had I had opportunities topossibly work for.
Maybe you can talk a little bitabout that networking on more of
a larger scale so that theyunderstand that that's an
important skill.
SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
Yeah, I you know, it's interesting because you you
sort of prefaced the commentwith, I don't know what I'm
gonna get out of this, right?
And so leadership isn't aboutwhat you're gonna get out, it's
about what you're gonna put in.
One of the most successfulleaders I've ever met in my
entire life was a guy by thename of Rusty Beatty.
Rusty Beatty was very high up atProgressive Insurance at the
(21:29):
Claims organization.
I think when he retired, he hadlike 7,000 people working in
this group.
And Rusty could get more donejust walking around than most
people could do in a week ofappointments.
And uh and I was talking to himabout this.
I'm like, Rusty, like he hadthis aweshock southern sort of
manner, you know, like and ifyou met him, you would think
he's not even that successful,but he was incredibly
(21:51):
successful.
But he just was just down toearth, but he was always looking
for what can I do for you?
What do you need?
If you if you needed something,and by the way, I could I I I
have a multitude of leaders.
Another one's uh MichelleVermett, he runs a company
called America's Floor Sourceright now.
He's the same way.
He's got people on his phonethat call him all the time.
They haven't worked for him in10 years.
(22:12):
And they're like, hey, Michelle,can you do this?
And he's like, he's like,absolutely.
The network you create as you gothrough your life, um, you don't
do it because you are gonna getsomething back.
You do it because it's the humanthing to do.
But guess what happens?
The reason Rusty was able to getso much done when he was walking
around was he'd walk intosomebody's office and they're
(22:33):
like, what can I do for you?
Because they knew his reputationpreceded him.
And so he never had to twistarms that much about getting
things done.
SPEAKER_00 (22:43):
No, and I think when you when you talk about people
who uh influence others, it's apersonal connection rather than
a business connection.
That when when you actually comein and you're somewhat familiar
with who they are and some ofthe challenges that they've
overcome, and you have aconnection, a personal
(23:04):
connection.
Like being a director, I knewthe challenges and the issues
and the opportunities for thepeople who reported to me.
I didn't know the staff becausethey're just so far that you can
extend yourself.
I wish I had rusty skills to domore, to have that kind of
(23:24):
memory power, which though thethe people who I've seen that
have that skill, their memory isfascinating.
I've seen their tricks.
My favorite was I had a generalmanager who had a picture of
every employee that he was goingto walk through the department.
He had his notes that hecompiled over time about family
and about hobbies.
And when he went through thosedifferent departments, there was
(23:48):
an exchange.
Do you know he knew my kid isgraduating school?
It's like, did you talk aboutit?
You probably did.
He listened.
I didn't say that he also wroteit down so that he would
remember.
But any of those, any of thoseskill sets that try to help
people communicate, those arethose are pearls that you can
(24:09):
use.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, without question.
It's just it's just so powerful.
This is a leadership is aboutbeing human with people.
Um and uh, you know, uh I I havea client who runs a very large
organization, and he uh uh hesaid, you know, the bigger the
company gets, the more I realizeI I don't have anything to do
(24:30):
with the product anymore.
I got nothing to do with theproduct, I got nothing to do
with the service.
All I do is work with people.
Um and for for many leaders,they're like, but I don't I
don't really like people.
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
Yes, yes.
And and how many times have weheard people like uh Gates
saying, I'm not I'm not really apeople person?
He he walked his way out.
He was a tech, but he he gotpeople who knew how to talk to
each other and he empoweredthem.
Jobs was actually a very goodpeople um related person, but he
(25:03):
also had limitations that therewas it was a deliverable and it
was more of a marketing kind ofconnection rather than uh
manufacturing connection.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
Um Yeah, you know what it is when people say I'm
not a people person, whatthey're saying is they're more
task-oriented thanpeople-oriented.
Right.
And I all I would say is sothat's what energizes you, but
skill is different thanbehavior.
And what what one of my favoritethings to teach leaders is
something called the Peterprinciple, which most people
have heard of, right?
Uh, but I think it'smisconstrued.
(25:33):
I think people think you getpromoted to your level of
incompetence.
I think uh what it actually ishappening is we get promoted to
a place where all the skills wehave not worked on that helped
us get there now come back andbite us in the butt.
So I could I can get to acertain level with my technical
skill, but at some point, thevery things that I ignored will
(25:57):
start to become an issue.
And so, you know, the drive, thedesire to always be right, the
desire to make it perfect,that's awesome.
And it will get you so far, butthen it will undermine your
success from that point forward.
So when I'm coaching executiveclients, a lot of what I'm
trying to do, I'm trying to getthem to distinguish between what
(26:17):
they are successful because offrom what they are successful in
spite of.
And it's the in spite of's thatactually are biting them at that
point.
Sure.
They think they're successfulbecause of those things.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah.
So your organization is doingsomething in terms of training,
and you have training programs.
You have a 90-minute program,you you do keynote speaking.
I I think what is important,when I started with the first
real job, I like to say, waswith Johnson ⁇ Johnson, and they
sent me to a training course,uh, MBR with Dr.
(26:52):
Durst.
Wonderful course.
It started my career.
I had a starting point.
Maybe you can talk a little bitabout your organization and how
important somebody has to startthat training on how to be a
leader and and and how your teamhas developed a way to what kind
of walk them through thisprocess to understand it doesn't
(27:14):
happen instantly.
It has to actually be applied.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Yeah, you can't microwave leadership.
You know, it takes time.
No.
So we figured out a long timeago.
I I actually have to share abackground in engineering with
you, by the way.
Uh so I went into sales becauseI was pretty much clear I wasn't
going to make a great engineer.
Um, and I sold the technicalproduct for some years, and then
I started this company.
But I would have been electedthe most likely to fall asleep
during training when I wouldhave was in my pre-prob because
(27:40):
it was usually taught by someonewho knew nothing about what I
did, who who, you know, usedexamples and widgets and this,
that, and the other.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
And I'm like, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
There's no bearing.
But so when we started this, wedecided uh one of the biggest
reasons why training fails is itis seen as an HR initiative.
So you I know you said you haveHR managers on here.
We put HR in the untenableposition of being responsible
for something that they cannotbe responsible for.
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
Um, so we always say we we partner with HR for sure,
and and they're great partnersfor us, but we want to make sure
this training is an operationalinitiative, not an HR
initiative.
And the way we partner with HRto make sure that is the case is
like when somebody's gonna senda group or a person to a through
a cohort we have, we want totalk to the person's boss.
(28:26):
And we want to say what whatwould constitute success for
this?
And we want to get clarityaround that and we want to know
how that's gonna impact thebusiness because then it becomes
an operational initiative, notjust we're gonna make you nicer
and uh, you know, please andthank you and all that sort of
stuff.
Right.
Um, so that's the first thing.
The second thing we figured outwas that since you can't
microwave leadership, we takeour content and we divide it up
(28:47):
into very short modules and wefacilitate them over time with
our clients.
And so uh it nothing takes atremendous amount of time in any
given week, but over the courseof the of the of the program, uh
you can really make somesignificant shifts, not just in
the way people are interacting,but the business results they're
(29:08):
able to achieve.
So our programs last a littlebit longer, but they're a low
impact.
Uh you and I have both been toprograms where they're three
days long and you arrive backand you're so excited, and
you've got the binder and youput it on your shelf because you
got a lot of crap you got tohandle because you've been gone.
And then three months later youfind the binder.
And I'm like, that's nothelpful, right?
Uh we do it a littledifferently, actually.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
And having the idea, I I think the biggest challenge
for me when I've tried to teach,it's that 15 minutes of
attention span.
SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
And if you're going for an eight hour day, good
luck.
SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
Because they're they're not going to retain the
approach of doing a 90 minute, a30 minute what what you're doing
is actually a way to help thatbecome a memory rather than a
thought.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
Yeah.
And and what we the reason we dothe 90 minute workshop, it's
It's it's fully complimentary.
And it goes back to what Ilearned from Rusty, right?
You give before you ask.
And and so be people attend theworkshop, they never do anything
with us afterwards.
Sometimes people do.
I don't care.
It doesn't matter to me.
What I what matters to me thatby is by it's like you doing
(30:19):
this podcast, John.
Like you you're you're trying tobe of service to people.
And if people want to know more,we'll we'll tell them more.
Uh but but we don't do theworkshop so that people want to
do business with us.
We do the workshop because whatwe're actually trying to do is
identify the people who want totalk to us.
And if they do, we're happy tohave those conversations.
But if they get a lot out of theworkshop and they're like, I've
(30:41):
got so much to do, I I'm fine.
Uh I consider that a live.
SPEAKER_00 (30:46):
Yeah, I agree.
That's that's awesome.
So we have a commonality oftrying to help people, and that
that is awesome.
Again, but you're a business,and maybe we can just talk about
the business end.
Umresults.com is theorganization and anything else
that they need to know, websiteinformation or yeah, that's so
that is the website,transformationresults.com.
SPEAKER_01 (31:07):
So if you go there in the top, you're gonna see
free workshop.
And if you click on that, youcan sign up for that.
That workshop.
We do them usually once to twicea month.
And uh it's it's 90 minuteslong.
And uh I always say, you know,if you need a workshop like
this, uh you don't have time forit.
So just understand it's gonna behard to invest the time to do
something like this.
(31:27):
Our goal is to make that 90minutes so powerful for you that
at the end of it, you're like,man, I am energized, I'm
focused, and I have some someclear things that I can do
differently at the end of thisthat will help me accelerate the
progress, not just of myself,but of my team.
SPEAKER_00 (31:43):
Well, Andrew, I appreciate your time.
I think it's a wonderfulorganization.
I love your approach because theidea of putting a hand out and
helping is the part that I'vealways enjoyed, and I can see
that you do the same.
Um, so I appreciate I doappreciate your time.
So if you like what you'veheard, remember that you can
(32:03):
listen to our podcast on thefollowing.
I've written a book calledBuilding Your Leadership
Toolbox, and we talk about toolslike this, and it's available on
Amazon and Barnes and Nouble andother sites.
The podcast is what you've beenlistening to.
Thank you so much.
It's also available on Apple,Google, and Spotify.
A lot of what we talk about isfrom Dr.
(32:24):
Durst in his MBR program.
If you'd like to know more aboutDr.
Durst, you can find out onSuccessGrowthAcademy.com.
And if you'd like to contact us,please send me a line.
That's Wando75 periodjw atgmail.com.
And the music has been broughtto you by my grandson.
(32:46):
So we want to hear from you.
Drop me a line, tell me what'sgoing on, what you like, and
what you would like to hearabout.
It has always helped us tocreate content.
Thanks, Greg.
This is fun.
Thanks, Josh, as always.
Next time, yeah.
Well, hello, and welcome to our podcast, Success,
Secrets, and Stories.
I'm your host, John Wondolowski,and I'm here with my co-host and
friend, Greg Powell.
Greg?
Hey everybody.
And when we put together thispodcast, we wanted to put out a
helping hand and help that nextgeneration and help answer the
(00:35):
question of what does it mean tobe a leader?
Today we want to talk about asubject that I think supports
that concept.
Well, in our continuingconversations about leadership,
we are we have a wonderfulopportunity with a guest, Andrew
Oxley.
And Andrew, your companytransformingresults.com and a
(00:59):
lot of what you've done in termsof teaching executives and also
the training classes and keynotespeaking.
A wonderful background.
Welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Thank you very much.
Appreciate you having me onhere, John.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
And uh I I think what I found very interesting
about your organization was howyou're trying to help teach
leaders the basics, startingpoints to understand how they're
being perceived is how theorganization's going to be
addressed.
You are the eyes and the ears ofleadership.
Maybe you can expand on that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Some years back I was working ina cell phone company, and I
don't know if you rememberNextel.
Uh I can talk about them becausethey're not around anymore.
Uh not because of the work wedid with them, of course, but
but I remember I was in in theiruh their training center, uh,
one of their customer servicecenters, a huge center, probably
300 customer service agents.
You remember when they used tohave customer service agents who
actually that had actual humanbeings, yeah.
(01:55):
Yeah, actual human beings.
And so anyway, he thisparticular uh learning
consultant was looking throughour material and he said, Well,
where's where's the new stuff?
And I'm like, Well, there is nonew stuff.
And he's like, But shouldn'tthere be new stuff?
I'm like, no, leadership isabout principles, and principles
don't change.
Now, I do believe that thecontext and the environment that
(02:15):
we're teaching leadership withinthese days is different today.
We one of my favorite comments Iget from leaders all the time
these days is, you know, youngpeople today.
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Uh and what follows is not usually No, I I hate that
intro, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:29):
Young people.
Yeah, young people today.
I'm pretty sure our parents saidthe same thing about us.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Yeah, I know they did.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Uh so but there are some unique differences today to
Gen Z and of course all thedifferent uh you know
generations that are in theworkforce today.
It's a very complicated mix.
And so if you're if you're aleader listening to this, you
have a very complicated job,without question.
But there are certain principlesthat have not changed over time.
Uh I think what's actuallyhappened is that leadership
(02:55):
hasn't so much changed.
It's the urgency and thenecessity to lead well has
become incredibly important.
But what you and I probablytolerated when we got started in
our career is not tolerable anylonger for young people.
They're just, they just won'tput up with it.
And they'll go elsewhere.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
And and I think the uh interesting word that you
used and talked aboutspecifically is something that
I've talked about: accountability, responsibility, (03:19):
undefined
and and how important that isfor leadership to try to set
that example.
Maybe you can talk a little bitabout the example and the impact
of that approach ofaccountability.
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Yeah.
And you know, I get this.
In fact, I did a webinaryesterday for a group of
clients, and and the number onechallenge they were talking
about was accountability.
People just won't be, you know,there's no accountability
anymore.
And I'm like, well, first ofall, uh accountability in
general, holding peopleaccountable requires you to lean
into the authority of yourposition, which diminishes the
influence you have with yourteam.
(03:53):
What we really want to do iscreate a culture of
accountability where people holdthemselves accountable.
Now, the challenge that leadershave, especially if you're if
you're an early leader on this,listening to this podcast, you
don't get it because you no oneever had to hold you
accountable.
Nobody ever had to remind you todo stuff.
And if your boss did something,you just did it.
So when I'm talking to leaders,I'll say to them, well, you know
(04:15):
what your problem is.
And they think they know.
And I'm like, no, it's it's thatyou think you're normal.
You're you're not normal.
You're abnormal by becausenormal is a statistical
reference to likelihood ofoccurring.
You don't get into leadership bybeing normal, you get into
leadership by being not normal.
(04:35):
And so the fact that you havepeople who are not acting the
way you acted when you were uhperhaps reporting to uh someone
in your current position is umprobably to be expected to some
degree.
It now it's not what we want,and it's not what we should
expect from people, but it isprobably, you know, more going
to be the norm.
(04:55):
And this is just a huge, likemind-blowing thing for most
early leaders.
They're like, what do you meanyou don't want to do what I just
asked you to do?
So we have to start with thatlevel set that um we want to
create a culture ofaccountability, and we need to
understand that just because I'mgetting something, uh, it's not
that it's necessarily abnormal,it's just not desired.
(05:17):
So, how do you create thatculture of accountability with a
team, right?
And I think that the problem weget into is that we allow our
frustrations to uh spill overinto the way that we work with
people.
And nothing good usually comesfrom that when we lose control
of our speech and our tone andour the way we're interacting
(05:38):
with people.
And at the same time, youshouldn't tolerate bad behavior
or uh or uh behaviors that arenot going to lead to the results
that are really required.
So we have this rub wherepeople, you know, sometimes
they're trying to be nice topeople and encourage them, and
then they get tired of that andthey just bring the hammer down
and they tell them what theyjust has to happen, and and then
(05:58):
they feel guilty that they didthat, and the people get upset
with them, so they go back tobeing nice again, and I they're
traveling between these twoextremes, right?
And as you know, John, itrequires a balance.
Yeah, I would argue, and I'veI've I've done this exercise
with thousands of leaders, thatthe best boss we've ever had,
the best boss, uh, was tough.
(06:20):
They were hard to work for, theywere not easy, they didn't, they
didn't have low expectations,they didn't coddle us, they but
they were supportive, uh, theycoached, uh, they helped us when
we needed help, but they pushedus, they demanded a lot from us.
And so that's the model that weteach leaders to lean into, and
we call it being the guide,somebody who is uh has clear
(06:43):
standards and expectations, butthey support us in the journey.
And young people today wantthis.
They want to be coached, theywant to be developed, they want
it, they don't want to just betold just go do it because I
said so.
SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
And unfortunately, I think there's a little bit of a
negative effect.
COVID, I think, stepped back alot of development, uh, a lot of
the social norms that helps thatculture approach.
A little bit about how theeducation field is not as, I
don't know, stringent.
They're more you know, pass-failrather than A, B, C, you know,
(07:19):
A, N F, a D, that kind of impactof grading.
It's harder now to try to bringthat kind of culture, or or
haven't you seen that in termsof the effect of the R.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Yeah, no, I have.
In fact, someone just came outwith some really great research
around Gen Z.
Gen Z is uh to some degree quitefragile.
Um in terms of they've neverbeen told, they've been told
they're wonderful, and they'venever been told that they
failed.
So many of them have neverfailed at anything in their
lives.
And uh if you do anything of anyconsequence over any length of
(07:52):
time, you're gonna fail at somecrap.
You're gonna, you're gonna messup.
And for many people, it's thatthey just they don't it's the
first time they've experiencedthat.
And so one of the things asleaders we need to understand is
that this may be the first timethey've been told by someone
that they're not good atsomething, that they're not
meeting expectations, thatthey're not doing what they need
(08:14):
to be doing.
And so uh, you know, complainingabout that does not change it.
We need to be cognizant of thefact that, okay, so when I'm
giving feedback to this person,I need to first make sure I
connect with them and theyunderstand how much I want them
to be successful.
That's the supportive side.
Because when I try to holdpeople accountable without them
(08:36):
believing that I'm in this withthem and I want them to be
successful, the words just washaway.
And they think you just you'rejust beating them up and you
don't care.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Yeah.
I think the the element ofsuccess is through failure.
Like Edison was famous fortalking about how many failures
he had before he had successes.
Yeah.
And and having not so much tocoddle that generation, but to
encourage the understanding thatfailure is part of growth.
That that seems to be a bigchallenge for them to accept.
SPEAKER_01 (09:07):
Yeah, I think it is.
And I love the saying that youbefore you correct, you have to
connect.
You have to connect with peoplebefore you correct.
And when we try to correctwithout connection, um, it it I
don't know if it ever reallyworked well, but it really
doesn't work well with thecurrent generation that's coming
into the workforce, right?
They are uh they are highlyautonomous.
(09:28):
They uh they believe that theydon't need to follow systems and
rules.
And, you know, we were told youhad to, and they're like, why?
Like, why do we have to?
And because I said so is not agood answer, but is that many of
the systems and rules that thatare in place, they're just not
necessary, especially for theyounger generation.
They can work around thosethings.
Now, this is not new.
(09:49):
You know, there's uh there's agreat story, and and you know,
you've watched the stories aboutNASA and when we were trying to
put a man on the moon, and Iprobably have seen those, Apollo
13.
And the interesting thing aboutthose movies, they always
represent the engineers and thepeople who are doing the work as
people who were, you know, sortof, you know, got a lot of
experience and stuff.
Actually, if you go back andread about it, nothing could
(10:12):
have been further from thetruth.
What NASA figured out was thatthe people who were going to be
able to figure out how to dosomething that we'd never done
before were actually 23 yearsold.
They went to MIT, they went toGeorgia Tech, they went to all
these fabulous schools, and theythey had the the grizzled
professionals mentoring theseindividuals, but the people that
(10:33):
figured it out were really,really young.
Sometimes people say things areso different.
Now, I I think they'redifferent, but there's some
trends that you look back andyou go, this was true in the
60s.
So, how do we lean into thatcreativity and that that that
belief that they can do thingsand they're not constrained by
the rules rather than beingfrustrated by that is what I
(10:56):
think one of our challenges is.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
I think one of the other parts too as a leader is
to understand.
Usually they a leader is someonewho understands the scope of
work, is very productive at thatscope of work.
But leader of people is adifferent kind of profession.
SPEAKER_01 (11:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
And I I think the biggest skill to teach someone
who's in that in that newcategory, self-awareness.
How are you coming across?
What do they hear when youspeak?
It's not recording yourself, andbecause the essence of a true
self, they can tell wheneverit's a performance versus an
actual application.
So communication is like thebuzzword that we always use in
(11:36):
every one of our trainingprograms, but it's the reality.
How do you emphasize the powerof communication and the
different platforms to get thatmessage across?
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Yeah, we tell our clients that leadership is more
art than science.
And the problem that we we havethis wonderful tool these days,
uh, Chat GPT or PerceptionPersepiti or whatever the the
different AI models you'reusing.
And when you when you putquestions in there, you'll get
the science.
You'll get the science of how todeal with a particular problem
(12:08):
or challenge, but you won't getthe art.
And you're right, you must beauthentic.
One of the things we teach ourclients is we teach them to
discover their own leadershipDNA.
Like you're gonna leaddifferently than me.
Now the principles won't change,but you're I always client asks
me how to do something, I'mlike, okay, so here's how I
would do it, and here's how Iwould say it, but let's
investigate how you need to dothat because you won't be able
(12:29):
to say it the way I do.
Right.
So you have to be authentic.
I've I've never met a leader whodoesn't think they're a great
communicator because we alwaysknow what we're saying, and it's
clear in my head.
Why isn't it clear when it comesout?
Sure.
Uh, but I would say we are notclear.
We are not clear in ourexpectations, we are not clear
in our desires.
A lot of times what people feelis, you know, just the heat of
(12:49):
when when they're not doing whatwe want them to do.
Uh and so we ask that infamousquestion, you know, do you have
any questions?
And they always say, well, no.
And we think that means no.
And it means please go away,boss.
You're embarrassing me.
And I I'm gonna try to figurethis out on my own now, right?
Uh so yeah, I don't think uh wehave clarity quite often.
(13:10):
Um, and when I make that theirfault, um, one of my first
preachers told me, when you havea problem and you make it the
other person's fault, you areabsolved of all responsibility
and all learning that couldoccur.
Right.
Um so I have I if if there's alack of communication, lack of
(13:31):
clarity, and I say, well,they're just not listening, I'm
like, well, why is that?
Why are they not listening?
Right.
And I say, well, because they'reyoung people.
Well, okay.
Once again, right?
Uh no, what what what is it thatI need to do differently?
Now, the truth is if I doeverything I know how to do and
I I research and I then thenmaybe it is them.
But we jump to that it's themanswer so quickly.
(13:53):
I have found it's almost alwaysme.
I I can't speak for anyone else.
It's almost always me.
unknown (13:58):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (13:58):
I I think I've seen the same thing.
But my favorite memory is mydaughter asking me a math
question, and and my engineeringmind's like going 100 miles an
hour, and it's like, well, youdo this and you do this, and
what this really implies.
And after I drink, you know, Ihad the word dribble for a
while, she stopped me and said,What's the answer?
I'm like, Well, there's more toit.
12.
(14:19):
Okay, 12.
Go, go.
You have to invest on whetherthe message is coming across.
And that is something that Ilearned in a 360 format where
you send out and ask people, howam I doing?
What am I me, the manager, theleader?
How am I doing?
(14:40):
How am I coming across?
And it is an eye-opener whenthey're honest.
Because they they know thedifference between giving a
political so that you don't comeback on them, and they know
better than that no one it isanonymous.
You'll never know who wrote itin.
Yeah, you'll know.
But when you actually understandthat they're giving you a gift
(15:00):
of their input on how you'reactually conducting yourself,
put yourself in that positionthat's vulnerable.
Maybe you can talk about howthat really impacts leadership.
If you're really trying toengage, what does that really
feel like?
SPEAKER_01 (15:14):
Yeah, I think that so often, in fact, one of the
very first things we do whenwe're working with leaders is we
work with them on what they needto do differently so that they
can earn the moral authority tobe able to coach other people.
Uh if if I'm if I'm working withyou and you're my boss and I can
see that you're trying to dosome things differently, you're
talking about, then when youturn around and start talking to
(15:35):
me about what I'm wanting youwant me to do differently, it
has a different tenor and adifferent feeling to it than if
it's like I'm I'm here to fixAndrew.
I had a CEO call me up one timeand he said, I need you to help
me fix my people.
And I said, How do you knowthey're broke?
And he's like, Well, you know,and we had a conversation and I
said, I'm not sure it's yourpeople I need to work with.
And yes, he didn't end upworking with him.
(15:59):
Um but yeah, so it, you know, tobe authentic and to earn that
right, I mean, it's it's like,what do I need to be doing
differently?
Now, now I give you a littleexample of this.
There are two types of peopleyou can go and ask that question
of, right?
Because you can do a 360, right?
But you could also um go and askpeople like, where do you
where's one area you feel like Icould improve?
(16:21):
Now, I can go to someone whosees the world much the way I
do, and they will provide mewhat I call the cold comfort of
validation.
Right.
Or they'll they'll validate me,I think you're great, and I'm
like, well, I'm having a problemwith this person over here, and
they're like, Yeah, me too.
So, and we're awesome, so it'snot us.
Or I could go to someone whosees the world differently and
they'll say, Well, Andrew, youknow, what I've noticed is, and
(16:44):
if I argue with them, they'rejust gonna stop trying to help
me.
And the the likelihood of havingpeople in your life who will
speak the truth to you withlove, um is is low.
I mean, there's only a handfulof people who will do that for
you.
I right I I always say,hopefully you're married to one,
you know, because uh I know Ican go home and and my wife will
(17:08):
tell me, you know, uh what Idon't want to hear sometimes,
but it's what I but it's what Ineed to hear, right?
Right?
It isn't what I will want tohear sometimes.
What I want to hear is I'mgreat, right?
What I need to hear is, hey,here's an area that you could
perhaps improve.
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
And I think the the other part that I've seen that
is really frustrating is thelack of interest in in groups,
uh engineering groups, socialgroups, that time to take out of
your schedule as a new manager,a new supervisor, and go into
organizations like I there's anengineering team that I really
enjoyed, the exchange andtalking to peers.
(17:47):
It's the power of working withthe peers in your organization,
not only in a social sense withother people from other
companies, but the peers, thesupervisors and the managers
that in your own organizationthat sometimes are that clarity
of leadership.
And they can give you some realinput at the same time.
(18:09):
How do we try to teach thatelement of social skills to
understand the power of thatconnection between peers?
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Yeah, and I think COVID, you mentioned COVID
earlier.
COVID made this even worse.
We sent people home, people gotused to working from home.
And and let me let me say ifyou're a young leader on this,
uh listening to this podcast andyou're you're resisting going
back into work, or you thinkit's so let me tell you, your
progress in your career will beamplified and accelerated by
this by the contact you havewith people around you.
(18:40):
Um sitting in a room in a vacuumby yourself, you you've got to
have people who are willing toinvest in you and work with you.
So I strongly encourage you toto to identify those.
Uh identify people you respect.
Now, find somebody who canmentor you.
Your progress will accelerate.
Now, it can be your boss, yourboss can mentor you for sure,
(19:00):
but who are some other peoplethat could perhaps mentor you,
give you uh give you insightsand give you direction as you
progress in your career?
Social networks, you mentionedthose.
If you were to think about this,uh, and this is uh sort of one
of the models we use in ourbook, The Four Faces of
Frustration, some people aremore people-oriented and some
people are more task-oriented.
Um, everyone would like to thinkthey're balanced.
(19:21):
They're not, by the way.
Under stress, we move to one endor the other, right?
And so if I'm a people-orientedperson, I probably like those
social things.
And uh if I'm a task-orientedperson, I'm like, you know,
that's a bit of a waste of time.
I can just get the work done andwhat do you want from me?
So if you feel like you don'tneed that social contact, I
would argue you're the one whodoes need it because hardly
(19:44):
anybody gets fired for theirtechnical skills.
Uh hardly anybody stalls out intheir career because of their
technical skills.
They actually stall out becausetheir inability to get along
with others and to work it as ateam and to accomplish things in
a collaborative and empoweredenvironment.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
That that is such a key point because technology and
and doing the job and actuallyhands-on, you're leading those
people doing those tasks.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:09):
You're not you're not the boiler operator.
You're the one in charge of theengineering department.
There's that kind of moving awayfrom your technical strengths
and actually having theopportunity to lead people.
Now, the part that I thought wasreally interesting is the
engineering field has nationalorganizations.
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
And I try to explain to people that the national
organizations are important, nottrying to promote yourself as an
ego and a boost, butconnections, networking, for
them to understand what'sinvolved, that maybe your
organization's really doing wellright now.
But I can name probably fivecompanies that still exist that
(20:54):
I remember starting off in the80s that are still around that I
had I had opportunities topossibly work for.
Maybe you can talk a little bitabout that networking on more of
a larger scale so that theyunderstand that that's an
important skill.
SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
Yeah, I you know, it's interesting because you you
sort of prefaced the commentwith, I don't know what I'm
gonna get out of this, right?
And so leadership isn't aboutwhat you're gonna get out, it's
about what you're gonna put in.
One of the most successfulleaders I've ever met in my
entire life was a guy by thename of Rusty Beatty.
Rusty Beatty was very high up atProgressive Insurance at the
(21:29):
Claims organization.
I think when he retired, he hadlike 7,000 people working in
this group.
And Rusty could get more donejust walking around than most
people could do in a week ofappointments.
And uh and I was talking to himabout this.
I'm like, Rusty, like he hadthis aweshock southern sort of
manner, you know, like and ifyou met him, you would think
he's not even that successful,but he was incredibly
(21:51):
successful.
But he just was just down toearth, but he was always looking
for what can I do for you?
What do you need?
If you if you needed something,and by the way, I could I I I
have a multitude of leaders.
Another one's uh MichelleVermett, he runs a company
called America's Floor Sourceright now.
He's the same way.
He's got people on his phonethat call him all the time.
They haven't worked for him in10 years.
(22:12):
And they're like, hey, Michelle,can you do this?
And he's like, he's like,absolutely.
The network you create as you gothrough your life, um, you don't
do it because you are gonna getsomething back.
You do it because it's the humanthing to do.
But guess what happens?
The reason Rusty was able to getso much done when he was walking
around was he'd walk intosomebody's office and they're
(22:33):
like, what can I do for you?
Because they knew his reputationpreceded him.
And so he never had to twistarms that much about getting
things done.
SPEAKER_00 (22:43):
No, and I think when you when you talk about people
who uh influence others, it's apersonal connection rather than
a business connection.
That when when you actually comein and you're somewhat familiar
with who they are and some ofthe challenges that they've
overcome, and you have aconnection, a personal
(23:04):
connection.
Like being a director, I knewthe challenges and the issues
and the opportunities for thepeople who reported to me.
I didn't know the staff becausethey're just so far that you can
extend yourself.
I wish I had rusty skills to domore, to have that kind of
(23:24):
memory power, which though thethe people who I've seen that
have that skill, their memory isfascinating.
I've seen their tricks.
My favorite was I had a generalmanager who had a picture of
every employee that he was goingto walk through the department.
He had his notes that hecompiled over time about family
and about hobbies.
And when he went through thosedifferent departments, there was
(23:48):
an exchange.
Do you know he knew my kid isgraduating school?
It's like, did you talk aboutit?
You probably did.
He listened.
I didn't say that he also wroteit down so that he would
remember.
But any of those, any of thoseskill sets that try to help
people communicate, those arethose are pearls that you can
(24:09):
use.
SPEAKER_01 (24:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, without question.
It's just it's just so powerful.
This is a leadership is aboutbeing human with people.
Um and uh, you know, uh I I havea client who runs a very large
organization, and he uh uh hesaid, you know, the bigger the
company gets, the more I realizeI I don't have anything to do
(24:30):
with the product anymore.
I got nothing to do with theproduct, I got nothing to do
with the service.
All I do is work with people.
Um and for for many leaders,they're like, but I don't I
don't really like people.
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
Yes, yes.
And and how many times have weheard people like uh Gates
saying, I'm not I'm not really apeople person?
He he walked his way out.
He was a tech, but he he gotpeople who knew how to talk to
each other and he empoweredthem.
Jobs was actually a very goodpeople um related person, but he
(25:03):
also had limitations that therewas it was a deliverable and it
was more of a marketing kind ofconnection rather than uh
manufacturing connection.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
Um Yeah, you know what it is when people say I'm
not a people person, whatthey're saying is they're more
task-oriented thanpeople-oriented.
Right.
And I all I would say is sothat's what energizes you, but
skill is different thanbehavior.
And what what one of my favoritethings to teach leaders is
something called the Peterprinciple, which most people
have heard of, right?
Uh, but I think it'smisconstrued.
(25:33):
I think people think you getpromoted to your level of
incompetence.
I think uh what it actually ishappening is we get promoted to
a place where all the skills wehave not worked on that helped
us get there now come back andbite us in the butt.
So I could I can get to acertain level with my technical
skill, but at some point, thevery things that I ignored will
(25:57):
start to become an issue.
And so, you know, the drive, thedesire to always be right, the
desire to make it perfect,that's awesome.
And it will get you so far, butthen it will undermine your
success from that point forward.
So when I'm coaching executiveclients, a lot of what I'm
trying to do, I'm trying to getthem to distinguish between what
(26:17):
they are successful because offrom what they are successful in
spite of.
And it's the in spite of's thatactually are biting them at that
point.
Sure.
They think they're successfulbecause of those things.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah.
So your organization is doingsomething in terms of training,
and you have training programs.
You have a 90-minute program,you you do keynote speaking.
I I think what is important,when I started with the first
real job, I like to say, waswith Johnson ⁇ Johnson, and they
sent me to a training course,uh, MBR with Dr.
(26:52):
Durst.
Wonderful course.
It started my career.
I had a starting point.
Maybe you can talk a little bitabout your organization and how
important somebody has to startthat training on how to be a
leader and and and how your teamhas developed a way to what kind
of walk them through thisprocess to understand it doesn't
(27:14):
happen instantly.
It has to actually be applied.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Yeah, you can't microwave leadership.
You know, it takes time.
No.
So we figured out a long timeago.
I I actually have to share abackground in engineering with
you, by the way.
Uh so I went into sales becauseI was pretty much clear I wasn't
going to make a great engineer.
Um, and I sold the technicalproduct for some years, and then
I started this company.
But I would have been electedthe most likely to fall asleep
during training when I wouldhave was in my pre-prob because
(27:40):
it was usually taught by someonewho knew nothing about what I
did, who who, you know, usedexamples and widgets and this,
that, and the other.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
And I'm like, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
There's no bearing.
But so when we started this, wedecided uh one of the biggest
reasons why training fails is itis seen as an HR initiative.
So you I know you said you haveHR managers on here.
We put HR in the untenableposition of being responsible
for something that they cannotbe responsible for.
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
Um, so we always say we we partner with HR for sure,
and and they're great partnersfor us, but we want to make sure
this training is an operationalinitiative, not an HR
initiative.
And the way we partner with HRto make sure that is the case is
like when somebody's gonna senda group or a person to a through
a cohort we have, we want totalk to the person's boss.
(28:26):
And we want to say what whatwould constitute success for
this?
And we want to get clarityaround that and we want to know
how that's gonna impact thebusiness because then it becomes
an operational initiative, notjust we're gonna make you nicer
and uh, you know, please andthank you and all that sort of
stuff.
Right.
Um, so that's the first thing.
The second thing we figured outwas that since you can't
microwave leadership, we takeour content and we divide it up
(28:47):
into very short modules and wefacilitate them over time with
our clients.
And so uh it nothing takes atremendous amount of time in any
given week, but over the courseof the of the of the program, uh
you can really make somesignificant shifts, not just in
the way people are interacting,but the business results they're
(29:08):
able to achieve.
So our programs last a littlebit longer, but they're a low
impact.
Uh you and I have both been toprograms where they're three
days long and you arrive backand you're so excited, and
you've got the binder and youput it on your shelf because you
got a lot of crap you got tohandle because you've been gone.
And then three months later youfind the binder.
And I'm like, that's nothelpful, right?
Uh we do it a littledifferently, actually.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
And having the idea, I I think the biggest challenge
for me when I've tried to teach,it's that 15 minutes of
attention span.
SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
And if you're going for an eight hour day, good
luck.
SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
Because they're they're not going to retain the
approach of doing a 90 minute, a30 minute what what you're doing
is actually a way to help thatbecome a memory rather than a
thought.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
Yeah.
And and what we the reason we dothe 90 minute workshop, it's
It's it's fully complimentary.
And it goes back to what Ilearned from Rusty, right?
You give before you ask.
And and so be people attend theworkshop, they never do anything
with us afterwards.
Sometimes people do.
I don't care.
It doesn't matter to me.
What I what matters to me thatby is by it's like you doing
(30:19):
this podcast, John.
Like you you're you're trying tobe of service to people.
And if people want to know more,we'll we'll tell them more.
Uh but but we don't do theworkshop so that people want to
do business with us.
We do the workshop because whatwe're actually trying to do is
identify the people who want totalk to us.
And if they do, we're happy tohave those conversations.
But if they get a lot out of theworkshop and they're like, I've
(30:41):
got so much to do, I I'm fine.
Uh I consider that a live.
SPEAKER_00 (30:46):
Yeah, I agree.
That's that's awesome.
So we have a commonality oftrying to help people, and that
that is awesome.
Again, but you're a business,and maybe we can just talk about
the business end.
Umresults.com is theorganization and anything else
that they need to know, websiteinformation or yeah, that's so
that is the website,transformationresults.com.
SPEAKER_01 (31:07):
So if you go there in the top, you're gonna see
free workshop.
And if you click on that, youcan sign up for that.
That workshop.
We do them usually once to twicea month.
And uh it's it's 90 minuteslong.
And uh I always say, you know,if you need a workshop like
this, uh you don't have time forit.
So just understand it's gonna behard to invest the time to do
something like this.
(31:27):
Our goal is to make that 90minutes so powerful for you that
at the end of it, you're like,man, I am energized, I'm
focused, and I have some someclear things that I can do
differently at the end of thisthat will help me accelerate the
progress, not just of myself,but of my team.
SPEAKER_00 (31:43):
Well, Andrew, I appreciate your time.
I think it's a wonderfulorganization.
I love your approach because theidea of putting a hand out and
helping is the part that I'vealways enjoyed, and I can see
that you do the same.
Um, so I appreciate I doappreciate your time.
So if you like what you'veheard, remember that you can
(32:03):
listen to our podcast on thefollowing.
I've written a book calledBuilding Your Leadership
Toolbox, and we talk about toolslike this, and it's available on
Amazon and Barnes and Nouble andother sites.
The podcast is what you've beenlistening to.
Thank you so much.
It's also available on Apple,Google, and Spotify.
A lot of what we talk about isfrom Dr.
(32:24):
Durst in his MBR program.
If you'd like to know more aboutDr.
Durst, you can find out onSuccessGrowthAcademy.com.
And if you'd like to contact us,please send me a line.
That's Wando75 periodjw atgmail.com.
And the music has been broughtto you by my grandson.
(32:46):
So we want to hear from you.
Drop me a line, tell me what'sgoing on, what you like, and
what you would like to hearabout.
It has always helped us tocreate content.
Thanks, Greg.
This is fun.
Thanks, Josh, as always.
Next time, yeah.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com