November 14, 2025 • 26 mins
A fire alarm rings. What do you do?... Do you wait for an action committee or act with clarity and speed? We dive into the real mechanics of critical decision making—from false alarms and incident command to a flooded manufacturing floor where seconds and amps collide. Along the way, we show how a simple, one-page SBAR (Situation, Background, Assessment, Recommendation) builds trust, cuts through politics, and keeps teams focused when the clock and the risk both run hot.
We start by grounding decisions in environment: timing, hazard, and the operating context. You’ll hear how to distinguish low-risk noise from true emergencies, how rapid communication—like pulling the building alarm—rallies people and systems in sync. Then we translate those high-stakes lessons to everyday operations where you have weeks instead of minutes.
From there, we widen the lens to strategy. Rolling 1–3–5 year planning aligns near-term ROI with longer-term vision, all under real limits like cash flow, capital approvals, and the painful reality of deferred maintenance. We talk about how to elevate unsexy infrastructure by quantifying risk-of-deferral in dollars and downtime. We also explore how AI now accelerates data gathering and forecasting while we still needing human judgment to read political shifts and market signals. Inclusive, cross-functional teams improve decisions by reducing blind spots, and psychological safety speeds the truth to the table.
By the end, you’ll have a toolkit for fast, fact-based decisions that scale from the plant floor to the boardroom: use SBAR to focus, evidence to persuade, and cadence to deliver. If this conversation helps sharpen your leadership edge.... follow this podcast, share it with a teammate, and leave a quick review so more people can find it.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
Well, hello, and welcome to our podcast, Success,
Secrets, and Stories.
I'm your host, John Wondolowski,and I'm here with my co-host and
friend, Greg Powell.
Greg?
Hey everybody.
And when we put together thispodcast, we wanted to put out a
helping hand and help that nextgeneration and help answer the
(00:35):
question of what does it mean tobe a leader?
Today we want to talk about asubject that I think supports
that concept.
So today we'd like to explorethe concept of what it takes to
make a critical decision and theimportant element of being aware
(00:55):
of your environment.
It is often referred to astactical or situational
analysis.
And in essence, it's trying tomake sure that you are effective
within the operating environmentthat you're in.
Think of the complexity of whatyou have in terms of demands, in
(01:16):
terms of skill or the situation.
You need to have that broaderview.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
Okay, John, I get the general idea, but can you
expand a bit more on what youmean by environment and how
situation analysis works?
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Yeah, it is confusing, I have to admit.
And situational and tactical areterms that are interchangeable
in my mind.
And they're used to helporganizations assess internal
and external environments inorder to create a guide for
their decision and moreimportantly for their planning.
(01:52):
The environment that influencesit is basically trying to put
that sense of timing.
How quickly does a decision haveto be made?
So let's break that down.
A situational process in mostorganizations is a systematic
way to address an issue.
One example that I like is whatI learned in the hospital
(02:15):
settings called the SBAR report.
And we've talked about thisbefore, but it is such a great
tool, it is never a waste oftime to talk about it again.
SBAR stands for Situation,Background, Assessment, and
Recommendation.
Whether it's written formally ina committee or informally
between individuals, an SBARformat helps ensure a clear and
(02:38):
focused analysis.
But to be truly effective, youhave to recognize the fact that
one of the biggest variablesinfluencing that approach is the
environment itself.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
Okay.
I know we're not talking aboutglobal warming or climate change
here, but can you give me anexample of an environment that
really affects decision making?
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Yeah, sure.
Probably the best example I cangive is from my days of being a
facility manager.
And one of the clearest examplesI think anybody can have for
effective decisions is a firealarm.
The situation's kind ofstraightforward.
The alarm goes off.
You need to act quickly.
The assessment depends on howfast you need to act by what has
(03:20):
been triggered in terms of thatalarm.
My favorite is when you have thenine-year-old that pulls the
alarm as a prank.
You know, mom and dad can't stopthem, and bang, off goes the
fire alarm.
The action plan is kind ofstraightforward.
You have a conversation with thechild in an interrogation room.
Uh no, I'm just kidding.
You try to basically let theparents handle the kid.
(03:44):
What you really are doing isgoing a very quick background
analysis, and you understandthat the critical issue of no
fire, low risk.
Then you, through any typicalinstant command kind of
scenario, in this case, like me,the manager, I would make a
quick assessment.
I would get the background fromthe people who were involved
(04:06):
with the fire alarm addressing,which was usually the electrical
department team, and they wouldmake their recommendation before
a full blown-out committee getstogether.
It's action, plan,implementation.
And that for the most partcovers what you do with the
alarm and you put it on reset.
(04:26):
However, in a hospitalenvironment, you're caught with
that process again that you haveto meet.
And it's a situational kind ofanalysis for the fire
department.
They have to come in, see thatyour assessment is correct, the
background's correct.
And until they give the okay,the people are not allowed back
into the building.
They're doing the same S-barapproach that you should be
(04:49):
doing.
And when you know it'sstraightforward and it's a fact
and you can move quickly, peopleusually do that quickly.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
But John, it sounds like you've lived through this
more than once.
Yeah.
Right?
So what can you really do toprevent these kinds of false
alarms?
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
Yeah, honestly, not much.
I mean, there are all kinds ofdifferent low-risk uh
disruptions in terms of the firealarm systems that happen
throughout the year.
There's only so much you can doto prevent, you know, curious
kids from pulling fire alarms.
They're seem to be attracted tothe colors and the red lights
(05:27):
and the do-not-touch signs.
It's like a moth to a flame.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
So that sets the stage for a real emergency.
Can you walk us through howdecision making works when
there's an actual fire?
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Yeah.
I mean, critical decision makingand a fire situation is probably
the best example I can think of.
And the organization decisionwhere the hospital's making that
situational analysis is a littlemore involved.
And there's a structure, andthat is the essence of really
what they call incident command.
(06:01):
And I've been involved inmanufacturing higher ed and
other sectors of emergencyresponse.
And whether they use a formalSBAR report or a relying on a
structure that is really fromOSHA or incident command
particularly, it really requiresthe same skill set.
(06:23):
It all comes down to how quicklyyou can generate that report and
respond.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
So, John, I've got a little bit of experience this
from the HR side.
So I think we're getting closerto the heart of it, but help me
understand how situationalanalysis works in a high-risk
environment where speed iscritical.
SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
Yeah.
Okay.
Let me give you a differentexample.
We had a flooding emergency in amanufacturing plant.
The municipal water system waspressurized because of the
storm, and water was pouringinto the facility from the
drains and the restrooms.
Yeah, I know I still can't getthat image on my head, but
that's another story for anotherday.
(07:00):
I understood the urgency, andwhat we were working in as a
manufacturing site was a highvoltage environment.
And the risk to the electricalhazard was real.
The storm was raging for atleast an hour.
And when the plumbing systembacked up and the water started
to build, I knew I only had afew minutes to act.
(07:21):
I quickly briefed my manager andwe both ran to the electrical
room.
I stopped him at the door andsaid, if something happens to
me, tell my family I love them.
And I pushed him back away fromthe doorway.
I then entered the room and shutoff the main electrical breaker.
I think it was the riskiest movein my career, but I made the
choice of risking one life,mine, instead of the 20 or 30
(07:46):
people that could have beenaffected by the same electrical
issue.
That situational analysis inaction, there was no time for a
formal action plan or acommittee discussion.
It was me and my boss.
I agreed and we did somethingimmediately.
Even now it gives me chills onhow dangerous that decision was.
unknown (08:05):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
That's a real serious assessment of risk and a
very bold action plan you took.
Is there anything you would dodifferently if you had a little
bit more time to step back, youknow, breathe a little bit, and
complete a formal SBAR report?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Funny you should ask.
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Today, there's a protective equipment design,
especially for emergencysituations where there's
electrical flashback.
And it's eye protection andchest protection and insulated
gloves and even foot gear insome applications.
If I had access to the gear backthen, I would have suited up
completely before touching thatmain switch gear.
(08:47):
An important detail just forthose of you who are of the
electrical background that areprobably shouting, get a broom
handle.
Don't touch it with your hand.
The broom handle didn't work.
I did.
I started there, but from thatday forward, we really did the
best we could.
And we put in the flashbackprotection into the main switch
(09:09):
gear.
I think long before it became arequirement for Osho.
We we did that square one in the80s.
And to be honest, that left apermanent mark on me.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Wow.
So looking back on it, was thereanything else you or your team
could have done?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
Um my boss was right behind me as we raced to the
electrical room.
And the the thing that I didn'tthink of that he did was to pull
the fire alarm along the way,which was his way of warning the
entire building.
We didn't have time to talkabout it, but it was the fastest
way to communicate an emergency.
(09:54):
Since the alarms and theemergency lights were on battery
backup, everything kicked in assoon as I shut off the power,
and the whole organizationstarted to mobilize to minimize
the damage.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Okay.
So maybe we can shift gears herea little bit.
Let's talk about a situationthat's a lot less dangerous.
No fire alarms, no flooding, nota DEF CON 3-level situation,
okay?
So let's say it's an operationalissue that needs to be addressed
quickly, but you've got weeksinstead of minutes to work with.
How would situational analysisapply in that kind of
(10:29):
environment?
Yeah, great question.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
Um SBAR stands for situation, background,
assessment, and recommendation.
In the business environment, themost important skill is to
understand the background.
And in operational settings,whenever there is a failure,
it's probably failed before.
History gives you insights interms of patterns, maybe root
(10:55):
cause, or even potentialsolutions.
Understanding the problems andthe solutions will help sharpen
your observations.
One of the most importantelements of leadership is to
know the difference betweenopinions and facts, especially
when you're conducting thatresearch.
Too often people will offertheir opinions instead of
(11:17):
evidence.
And you have to find a way torespectfully tell them or
challenge them on theirrecommendations.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
So, John, that sounds like a very politically
correct or diplomatic way ofsaying you're going to call
people out for giving dishonestanswers or for spreading rumors.
SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Well, it's not necessarily, you know, about
honesty.
It's more about whether someonehas enough experience to offer a
credible opinion.
I've seen new managers try todominate a meeting by rushing to
conclusions before thebackground or the analysis has
been addressed.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
So, how do you take all of that input, so much
input, and turn it into a realworkable strategic plan?
SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
Well, there is the key.
The time you invest in analyzingthe situation to understand the
past efforts often shape yourrecommendation.
But there has to be, pardon theexpression, some meat on the
bone.
You need to have a cleardefinition of the problem and a
record of what's been triedbefore.
If none of this happens quickly,it all takes time.
(12:21):
The challenge is that most teamsare so busy in their day-to-day
responsibilities that they don'tallow the time to do this
tactical or strategic thinking.
Unfortunately, some of thepeople hold leadership titles
too.
So that lack of genuine interestin basically leading the process
is slowing down the process.
(12:42):
And it takes much more time todo a basic SBAR report.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
So listening to you, John, it sounds pretty
straightforward.
But what are the real challengesin trying to build an
operational approach to along-term plan?
SPEAKER_01 (12:58):
Yeah, I mean, we are taking an S-Bar report.
It does influence the long-termplans.
But like any plans and anythingthat's done inside the
workplace, there's the politicsand the self-promotion and
departmental turf wars,personality clashes.
It all becomes this reallyinteresting, toxic mix of
(13:18):
confusion.
The magic ingredient, really, Ihave seen, is this SBAR report
and how it really does a prettygood job of pushing through
that.
I've seen executive leadershipassign different individuals to
head up the S-BAR report or thecommittees that will generate
the SBAR report.
If that leader doesn't know howto negotiate or delegate the
(13:42):
responsibilities effectively,they'll be replaced.
And here's an important partthose assignments are often a
test.
They're designed to see if youhave the metal to take on
greater responsibilities.
It's a weeding out process.
Those who can collaborate,navigate the complexity of the
job, deliver results, are theleaders the organization is
(14:04):
actually looking for.
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
So, you know, John, I've seen that kind of testing
approach used by executivemanagement in my HR roles.
And I have several stories thatkind of have the same sad theme
about a bully senior leader thatthought they were indispensable.
The bully behavior, onceactually seen by senior
management, was not going to betolerated.
And after attempts to improvethe leader's style, they had to
be germinated.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
Yeah.
And sadly, you know, it camefrom him trying to do the job
and how he handled that report.
I think we had talked about thisbefore, highlighted such a poor
leader and how poorly heconducted himself during that
process.
He did it in the group settingand he did it with the
executive, if I remembercorrectly.
SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
That's correct.
SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
So, yeah, strategic analysis challenges usually will
surface in an organizationthat's in trouble.
Leadership identifies a concernand it looks to their
professional leadership in areasthat can address it quickly.
If the president asks for asituational analysis, a tactical
analysis, the worst thing you doyou can do is come back with
your report saying nothing here.
(15:12):
You should really look forsomething else that's affecting
our profit or efficiencies.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
Yeah, that no problem here.
Check with those guys.
That approach never works.
Never ever works.
Have you ever seen that succeed,Sean?
SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
Yeah, unfortunately, you know, I've seen good
politics and people who know howto do that in the workplace.
And politicians are politicians.
It can mislead even goodexecutives.
And there have been some realproblems that usually circle
their way back to the departmentanyway.
But in most cases, diversion isjust a tactic.
(15:48):
And to put it simply, it's justdishonest.
And if leadership connects thedots, they'll realize that you
misled them.
And to be honest, you'd be farbetter off admitting that you
have a mistake and move on totry to get it corrected rather
than creating a great story.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
So that's the essence of MBR management by
responsibility.
You gotta own it, admit theproblem, and start fixing it.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
I I I keep on coming back to a Bible verse.
You will know the truth and thetruth will set you free.
And I've said that to a fewpeople in an executive meeting
quietly, uh, so that theyunderstand, I know that you're
making this up, you know, tryingto encourage them to tell them
the truth.
You don't know, step back andtry it again.
(16:41):
Facts are the best way tonavigate political challenges.
And the more that you can showthat your opinion is grounded in
evidence and is supported by thefacts, the more that they will
listen to your opinion.
The easiest way to win the day,and it is the easiest way to win
the discussion, just deal withthe facts.
SPEAKER_00 (17:02):
So, John, I've had experience working with
engineers and some really smartpeople.
And I've seen some of thesereports around 10, 20, 30 pages
or more.
That kind of in-depth researchtakes serious time.
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Yeah, or that that is actually the point in terms
of environment.
You can generate so much data atthe end of the day, you just
confuse the issue.
And there's a saying, I don'tknow if it's business or or
operational, but I've used itmyself.
Paralysis through analysis.
When you you see that you'reheading down that path, I
(17:35):
usually would push people to theS-Bar report, create that
one-page report to support anyof the documentation you put
behind it.
That way, if there's questionsabout how the decision was
actually made, how complex itis, or details that you know
people are very involved with,it's there.
It's in the report.
But the S-Bar is for executivesummaries to keep the
(17:56):
conversation focused.
And also remember that they wantthe clarity, they want the
facts, and they want it on atimely basis.
It wasn't give it to me nextyear, it was give it to me next
week.
If they have time, that's fine,but they're going to want
updates.
Timeliness is a key element ofdecisions.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
So, you know, the military had a simple method,
check and verify.
That's a more direct version oftrust and verify.
Yeah.
Right?
So take input at face value andconfirm its accuracy.
That's how mature organizationshandle politically charged
environments.
It builds trust, not insomeone's opinion, but in their
(18:36):
results.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Yeah, and not every decision needs a committee.
I mean, day-to-day decisions arehappening all the time.
And you're going to makemistakes.
I mean, it's just human nature.
You don't want to learn themistakes over and over and over
again.
You make one, try not to repeatit.
So there's that learning curve,and there's also that curve in
terms of experience.
(18:59):
Flexibility is the key.
You need to know when you'reapplying the right tools.
As new information emerges, youmust recognize the challenge of
the environment.
Again, environment pops its uglyhead up and adapt accordingly.
It's 2025, and the things we useto feel confident about, those
(19:19):
five-year plans, well, theydon't hold up as well as they
used to.
The shift has a real impact interms of strategic planning.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
So, how often do you see organizations create
five-year plans?
SPEAKER_01 (19:34):
It's not whether it's a one-year plan or a
three-year plan or a five-yearplan.
It kind of is a combination ofall of those when you look at a
good plan.
And the assumptions that you cansee in the one in the first-year
plan are probably the mostactionable.
They yield the highest return oninvestment.
The three-year element of theplan is usually involving
(19:55):
capital projects, where itrequires funding for approvals,
and then the challenge is thefive-year plan.
And that's where the visionstarts to kick in.
It's about looking ahead andsetting goals and being
innovative.
There's the politics that areinvolved in it and the
environment of change that youhave to be ready to adjust.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Okay, John.
I was tracking with you untilnow.
Sounds like a series of rollingplans to me.
Are you saying organizationsshould develop three separate
plans or one strategic plan thatincorporates all three time
frames?
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
Yeah, it kind of naturally creates all three time
frames.
And the complexity comes fromthings like loans or tied to
capital that's available inorder to make the plans work.
These plans are shaped throughthe organizations and needs the
funding in order to set thosepriorities.
(20:52):
At a very basic level, projectsthat generate profit and cash
are always going to beprioritized first.
I know you're not surprised bythat input.
Infrastructure, overheadprojects, on the other hand,
fall into those categories thatusually get shoved at a three
and a five-year.
And they don't get done all thatfrequently because of that.
(21:16):
Facilities have an interestingholding pattern for those kinds
of projects called deferredmaintenance.
And it's frustrating to see thatcritical project like a roof
repair being pushed back yearafter year because they do
five-year plan reviews everyyear.
And it might take that 50-yeargoal years before it's actually
(21:40):
implemented.
Those expensive infrastructureitems always get bumped down the
line.
And how you defer themaintenance in terms of the
buildup of capital requirements?
Well, projects have to besubmitted on a regular basis in
order to try to create a newtimeline.
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
So a fifth-year goal might not be completed until
year 15.
Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
Unfortunately, yeah.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
One of the lessons I learned inmanufacturing is simple.
Cash is king.
If the organization doesn't haveenough liquidity to cover its
payroll and its overhead, thereis no money for deferred
maintenance.
It's only those issues thatbegin to impact the
profitability that are going toget prioritized, especially when
(22:27):
an organization has a very smallprofit margin like grocery
stores.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
So how would you summarize the leadership
challenge of being effective instrategic analysis?
SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
Well, I found probably the answer is the same
year after year, but you have tobuild up trust in order to
present your situationalanalysis.
In my case, it was called acapital asset report.
And the more I can ground mysuggestions in terms of facts
and tell them where our currentconditions are, it the easier it
(23:02):
is to communicate the sense ofurgency.
This isn't about persuasion.
It's about building consensusand helping the organization
chart the best path forward withthe resources that are
available.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Like the wise men and the funny man used to say,
and the truth will set you free.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Yeah, exactly.
But they had an interestinglist.
When I have asked this question,um, they came up with this list
about the 25 enhancementsdecision-making strategies.
And I think it's worthwhile toprobably summarize what's going
on today.
How do executive decisions worknowadays in 2025?
(23:43):
AI augmented decisions now arebeing used, where the computer
is now the tool that'ssupporting 70% of the data
collection, an intensive taskthat it does a very good job of
doing analysis and forecastingfrom the data.
The trouble is that the AI isbasically doing with the
information it has, and it can'tdetect warning signals like
(24:07):
capital allocations and changeof the marketplace.
It's more data in and data out.
Then there's cooperativeframeworks where
cross-functional teams shareownership and improve the
decision-making quality.
They do things like the S-Bar,but it becomes more of a hybrid
team.
And they're ensuring diversityof perspectives and shaping
(24:32):
strategic outcomes becausethey're more inclusive in terms
of how they're coming up withtheir decisions.
Greg, I think you have a coupleof examples.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
So let's talk about strategic inclusion.
Diversity, equity, and inclusionis now a competitive advantage,
not just a social one.
We talk about casting a widernet, getting talented people,
qualified people, but maybe adifferent perspective, diversity
of thought.
You want to build diverse teamsto enhance innovation and client
(25:00):
alignment.
Definitely something we've seenin the last five, six years,
mental health and trust.
Workplace loneliness andpsychological safety directly
impacts performance.
You want to make sure you'refostering open dialogue, admit
to those mistakes, and buildtrust through fact-based
leadership.
And then finally, agile planningmodes.
(25:21):
Traditional five-year plans areevolving into dynamic one,
three, and five-year frameworks.
You want to make sure you alignshort-term ROI with long-term
vision as the environmentshifts.
John?
SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
So hopefully uh Greg and I have answered some of
those questions that you'llencounter in terms of critical
decision making, whether it bestrategic, whether it be
tactical, or situational, thoserules and those guidelines help.
So if you like what you'veheard, I've written a book
(25:58):
called Building Your LeadershipToolbox, and we talk about tools
like this.
And it's available on Amazon andBarnes and Nouvel and other
sites.
The podcast is what you've beenlistening to.
Thank you so much.
It's also available on Apple,Google, and Spotify.
A lot of what we talk about isfrom Dr.
Durst and his MBR program.
If you'd like to know more aboutDr.
Durst, you can find out onSuccessGrowthAcademy.com.
(26:22):
And if you'd like to contact us,please send me a line.
That's Wando75 periodjw atgmail.com.
And the music has been broughtto you by my grandson.
So we want to hear from you.
Drop me a line.
Tell me what's going on, whatyou like, and what you would
like to hear about.
(26:43):
It has always helped us tocreate content.
Thanks, Greg.
This was fun.
Thanks, John.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
As always.
Next time.
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Yeah.
Well, hello, and welcome to our podcast, Success,
Secrets, and Stories.
I'm your host, John Wondolowski,and I'm here with my co-host and
friend, Greg Powell.
Greg?
Hey everybody.
And when we put together thispodcast, we wanted to put out a
helping hand and help that nextgeneration and help answer the
(00:35):
question of what does it mean tobe a leader?
Today we want to talk about asubject that I think supports
that concept.
So today we'd like to explorethe concept of what it takes to
make a critical decision and theimportant element of being aware
(00:55):
of your environment.
It is often referred to astactical or situational
analysis.
And in essence, it's trying tomake sure that you are effective
within the operating environmentthat you're in.
Think of the complexity of whatyou have in terms of demands, in
(01:16):
terms of skill or the situation.
You need to have that broaderview.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
Okay, John, I get the general idea, but can you
expand a bit more on what youmean by environment and how
situation analysis works?
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Yeah, it is confusing, I have to admit.
And situational and tactical areterms that are interchangeable
in my mind.
And they're used to helporganizations assess internal
and external environments inorder to create a guide for
their decision and moreimportantly for their planning.
(01:52):
The environment that influencesit is basically trying to put
that sense of timing.
How quickly does a decision haveto be made?
So let's break that down.
A situational process in mostorganizations is a systematic
way to address an issue.
One example that I like is whatI learned in the hospital
(02:15):
settings called the SBAR report.
And we've talked about thisbefore, but it is such a great
tool, it is never a waste oftime to talk about it again.
SBAR stands for Situation,Background, Assessment, and
Recommendation.
Whether it's written formally ina committee or informally
between individuals, an SBARformat helps ensure a clear and
(02:38):
focused analysis.
But to be truly effective, youhave to recognize the fact that
one of the biggest variablesinfluencing that approach is the
environment itself.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
Okay.
I know we're not talking aboutglobal warming or climate change
here, but can you give me anexample of an environment that
really affects decision making?
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Yeah, sure.
Probably the best example I cangive is from my days of being a
facility manager.
And one of the clearest examplesI think anybody can have for
effective decisions is a firealarm.
The situation's kind ofstraightforward.
The alarm goes off.
You need to act quickly.
The assessment depends on howfast you need to act by what has
(03:20):
been triggered in terms of thatalarm.
My favorite is when you have thenine-year-old that pulls the
alarm as a prank.
You know, mom and dad can't stopthem, and bang, off goes the
fire alarm.
The action plan is kind ofstraightforward.
You have a conversation with thechild in an interrogation room.
Uh no, I'm just kidding.
You try to basically let theparents handle the kid.
(03:44):
What you really are doing isgoing a very quick background
analysis, and you understandthat the critical issue of no
fire, low risk.
Then you, through any typicalinstant command kind of
scenario, in this case, like me,the manager, I would make a
quick assessment.
I would get the background fromthe people who were involved
(04:06):
with the fire alarm addressing,which was usually the electrical
department team, and they wouldmake their recommendation before
a full blown-out committee getstogether.
It's action, plan,implementation.
And that for the most partcovers what you do with the
alarm and you put it on reset.
(04:26):
However, in a hospitalenvironment, you're caught with
that process again that you haveto meet.
And it's a situational kind ofanalysis for the fire
department.
They have to come in, see thatyour assessment is correct, the
background's correct.
And until they give the okay,the people are not allowed back
into the building.
They're doing the same S-barapproach that you should be
(04:49):
doing.
And when you know it'sstraightforward and it's a fact
and you can move quickly, peopleusually do that quickly.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
But John, it sounds like you've lived through this
more than once.
Yeah.
Right?
So what can you really do toprevent these kinds of false
alarms?
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
Yeah, honestly, not much.
I mean, there are all kinds ofdifferent low-risk uh
disruptions in terms of the firealarm systems that happen
throughout the year.
There's only so much you can doto prevent, you know, curious
kids from pulling fire alarms.
They're seem to be attracted tothe colors and the red lights
(05:27):
and the do-not-touch signs.
It's like a moth to a flame.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
So that sets the stage for a real emergency.
Can you walk us through howdecision making works when
there's an actual fire?
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Yeah.
I mean, critical decision makingand a fire situation is probably
the best example I can think of.
And the organization decisionwhere the hospital's making that
situational analysis is a littlemore involved.
And there's a structure, andthat is the essence of really
what they call incident command.
(06:01):
And I've been involved inmanufacturing higher ed and
other sectors of emergencyresponse.
And whether they use a formalSBAR report or a relying on a
structure that is really fromOSHA or incident command
particularly, it really requiresthe same skill set.
(06:23):
It all comes down to how quicklyyou can generate that report and
respond.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
So, John, I've got a little bit of experience this
from the HR side.
So I think we're getting closerto the heart of it, but help me
understand how situationalanalysis works in a high-risk
environment where speed iscritical.
SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
Yeah.
Okay.
Let me give you a differentexample.
We had a flooding emergency in amanufacturing plant.
The municipal water system waspressurized because of the
storm, and water was pouringinto the facility from the
drains and the restrooms.
Yeah, I know I still can't getthat image on my head, but
that's another story for anotherday.
(07:00):
I understood the urgency, andwhat we were working in as a
manufacturing site was a highvoltage environment.
And the risk to the electricalhazard was real.
The storm was raging for atleast an hour.
And when the plumbing systembacked up and the water started
to build, I knew I only had afew minutes to act.
(07:21):
I quickly briefed my manager andwe both ran to the electrical
room.
I stopped him at the door andsaid, if something happens to
me, tell my family I love them.
And I pushed him back away fromthe doorway.
I then entered the room and shutoff the main electrical breaker.
I think it was the riskiest movein my career, but I made the
choice of risking one life,mine, instead of the 20 or 30
(07:46):
people that could have beenaffected by the same electrical
issue.
That situational analysis inaction, there was no time for a
formal action plan or acommittee discussion.
It was me and my boss.
I agreed and we did somethingimmediately.
Even now it gives me chills onhow dangerous that decision was.
unknown (08:05):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
That's a real serious assessment of risk and a
very bold action plan you took.
Is there anything you would dodifferently if you had a little
bit more time to step back, youknow, breathe a little bit, and
complete a formal SBAR report?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Funny you should ask.
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Today, there's a protective equipment design,
especially for emergencysituations where there's
electrical flashback.
And it's eye protection andchest protection and insulated
gloves and even foot gear insome applications.
If I had access to the gear backthen, I would have suited up
completely before touching thatmain switch gear.
(08:47):
An important detail just forthose of you who are of the
electrical background that areprobably shouting, get a broom
handle.
Don't touch it with your hand.
The broom handle didn't work.
I did.
I started there, but from thatday forward, we really did the
best we could.
And we put in the flashbackprotection into the main switch
(09:09):
gear.
I think long before it became arequirement for Osho.
We we did that square one in the80s.
And to be honest, that left apermanent mark on me.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Wow.
So looking back on it, was thereanything else you or your team
could have done?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
Um my boss was right behind me as we raced to the
electrical room.
And the the thing that I didn'tthink of that he did was to pull
the fire alarm along the way,which was his way of warning the
entire building.
We didn't have time to talkabout it, but it was the fastest
way to communicate an emergency.
(09:54):
Since the alarms and theemergency lights were on battery
backup, everything kicked in assoon as I shut off the power,
and the whole organizationstarted to mobilize to minimize
the damage.
SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
Okay.
So maybe we can shift gears herea little bit.
Let's talk about a situationthat's a lot less dangerous.
No fire alarms, no flooding, nota DEF CON 3-level situation,
okay?
So let's say it's an operationalissue that needs to be addressed
quickly, but you've got weeksinstead of minutes to work with.
How would situational analysisapply in that kind of
(10:29):
environment?
Yeah, great question.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
Um SBAR stands for situation, background,
assessment, and recommendation.
In the business environment, themost important skill is to
understand the background.
And in operational settings,whenever there is a failure,
it's probably failed before.
History gives you insights interms of patterns, maybe root
(10:55):
cause, or even potentialsolutions.
Understanding the problems andthe solutions will help sharpen
your observations.
One of the most importantelements of leadership is to
know the difference betweenopinions and facts, especially
when you're conducting thatresearch.
Too often people will offertheir opinions instead of
(11:17):
evidence.
And you have to find a way torespectfully tell them or
challenge them on theirrecommendations.
SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
So, John, that sounds like a very politically
correct or diplomatic way ofsaying you're going to call
people out for giving dishonestanswers or for spreading rumors.
SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Well, it's not necessarily, you know, about
honesty.
It's more about whether someonehas enough experience to offer a
credible opinion.
I've seen new managers try todominate a meeting by rushing to
conclusions before thebackground or the analysis has
been addressed.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
So, how do you take all of that input, so much
input, and turn it into a realworkable strategic plan?
SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
Well, there is the key.
The time you invest in analyzingthe situation to understand the
past efforts often shape yourrecommendation.
But there has to be, pardon theexpression, some meat on the
bone.
You need to have a cleardefinition of the problem and a
record of what's been triedbefore.
If none of this happens quickly,it all takes time.
(12:21):
The challenge is that most teamsare so busy in their day-to-day
responsibilities that they don'tallow the time to do this
tactical or strategic thinking.
Unfortunately, some of thepeople hold leadership titles
too.
So that lack of genuine interestin basically leading the process
is slowing down the process.
(12:42):
And it takes much more time todo a basic SBAR report.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
So listening to you, John, it sounds pretty
straightforward.
But what are the real challengesin trying to build an
operational approach to along-term plan?
SPEAKER_01 (12:58):
Yeah, I mean, we are taking an S-Bar report.
It does influence the long-termplans.
But like any plans and anythingthat's done inside the
workplace, there's the politicsand the self-promotion and
departmental turf wars,personality clashes.
It all becomes this reallyinteresting, toxic mix of
(13:18):
confusion.
The magic ingredient, really, Ihave seen, is this SBAR report
and how it really does a prettygood job of pushing through
that.
I've seen executive leadershipassign different individuals to
head up the S-BAR report or thecommittees that will generate
the SBAR report.
If that leader doesn't know howto negotiate or delegate the
(13:42):
responsibilities effectively,they'll be replaced.
And here's an important partthose assignments are often a
test.
They're designed to see if youhave the metal to take on
greater responsibilities.
It's a weeding out process.
Those who can collaborate,navigate the complexity of the
job, deliver results, are theleaders the organization is
(14:04):
actually looking for.
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
So, you know, John, I've seen that kind of testing
approach used by executivemanagement in my HR roles.
And I have several stories thatkind of have the same sad theme
about a bully senior leader thatthought they were indispensable.
The bully behavior, onceactually seen by senior
management, was not going to betolerated.
And after attempts to improvethe leader's style, they had to
be germinated.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
Yeah.
And sadly, you know, it camefrom him trying to do the job
and how he handled that report.
I think we had talked about thisbefore, highlighted such a poor
leader and how poorly heconducted himself during that
process.
He did it in the group settingand he did it with the
executive, if I remembercorrectly.
SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
That's correct.
SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
So, yeah, strategic analysis challenges usually will
surface in an organizationthat's in trouble.
Leadership identifies a concernand it looks to their
professional leadership in areasthat can address it quickly.
If the president asks for asituational analysis, a tactical
analysis, the worst thing you doyou can do is come back with
your report saying nothing here.
(15:12):
You should really look forsomething else that's affecting
our profit or efficiencies.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
Yeah, that no problem here.
Check with those guys.
That approach never works.
Never ever works.
Have you ever seen that succeed,Sean?
SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
Yeah, unfortunately, you know, I've seen good
politics and people who know howto do that in the workplace.
And politicians are politicians.
It can mislead even goodexecutives.
And there have been some realproblems that usually circle
their way back to the departmentanyway.
But in most cases, diversion isjust a tactic.
(15:48):
And to put it simply, it's justdishonest.
And if leadership connects thedots, they'll realize that you
misled them.
And to be honest, you'd be farbetter off admitting that you
have a mistake and move on totry to get it corrected rather
than creating a great story.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
So that's the essence of MBR management by
responsibility.
You gotta own it, admit theproblem, and start fixing it.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
I I I keep on coming back to a Bible verse.
You will know the truth and thetruth will set you free.
And I've said that to a fewpeople in an executive meeting
quietly, uh, so that theyunderstand, I know that you're
making this up, you know, tryingto encourage them to tell them
the truth.
You don't know, step back andtry it again.
(16:41):
Facts are the best way tonavigate political challenges.
And the more that you can showthat your opinion is grounded in
evidence and is supported by thefacts, the more that they will
listen to your opinion.
The easiest way to win the day,and it is the easiest way to win
the discussion, just deal withthe facts.
SPEAKER_00 (17:02):
So, John, I've had experience working with
engineers and some really smartpeople.
And I've seen some of thesereports around 10, 20, 30 pages
or more.
That kind of in-depth researchtakes serious time.
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Yeah, or that that is actually the point in terms
of environment.
You can generate so much data atthe end of the day, you just
confuse the issue.
And there's a saying, I don'tknow if it's business or or
operational, but I've used itmyself.
Paralysis through analysis.
When you you see that you'reheading down that path, I
(17:35):
usually would push people to theS-Bar report, create that
one-page report to support anyof the documentation you put
behind it.
That way, if there's questionsabout how the decision was
actually made, how complex itis, or details that you know
people are very involved with,it's there.
It's in the report.
But the S-Bar is for executivesummaries to keep the
(17:56):
conversation focused.
And also remember that they wantthe clarity, they want the
facts, and they want it on atimely basis.
It wasn't give it to me nextyear, it was give it to me next
week.
If they have time, that's fine,but they're going to want
updates.
Timeliness is a key element ofdecisions.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
So, you know, the military had a simple method,
check and verify.
That's a more direct version oftrust and verify.
Yeah.
Right?
So take input at face value andconfirm its accuracy.
That's how mature organizationshandle politically charged
environments.
It builds trust, not insomeone's opinion, but in their
(18:36):
results.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Yeah, and not every decision needs a committee.
I mean, day-to-day decisions arehappening all the time.
And you're going to makemistakes.
I mean, it's just human nature.
You don't want to learn themistakes over and over and over
again.
You make one, try not to repeatit.
So there's that learning curve,and there's also that curve in
terms of experience.
(18:59):
Flexibility is the key.
You need to know when you'reapplying the right tools.
As new information emerges, youmust recognize the challenge of
the environment.
Again, environment pops its uglyhead up and adapt accordingly.
It's 2025, and the things we useto feel confident about, those
(19:19):
five-year plans, well, theydon't hold up as well as they
used to.
The shift has a real impact interms of strategic planning.
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
So, how often do you see organizations create
five-year plans?
SPEAKER_01 (19:34):
It's not whether it's a one-year plan or a
three-year plan or a five-yearplan.
It kind of is a combination ofall of those when you look at a
good plan.
And the assumptions that you cansee in the one in the first-year
plan are probably the mostactionable.
They yield the highest return oninvestment.
The three-year element of theplan is usually involving
(19:55):
capital projects, where itrequires funding for approvals,
and then the challenge is thefive-year plan.
And that's where the visionstarts to kick in.
It's about looking ahead andsetting goals and being
innovative.
There's the politics that areinvolved in it and the
environment of change that youhave to be ready to adjust.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Okay, John.
I was tracking with you untilnow.
Sounds like a series of rollingplans to me.
Are you saying organizationsshould develop three separate
plans or one strategic plan thatincorporates all three time
frames?
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
Yeah, it kind of naturally creates all three time
frames.
And the complexity comes fromthings like loans or tied to
capital that's available inorder to make the plans work.
These plans are shaped throughthe organizations and needs the
funding in order to set thosepriorities.
(20:52):
At a very basic level, projectsthat generate profit and cash
are always going to beprioritized first.
I know you're not surprised bythat input.
Infrastructure, overheadprojects, on the other hand,
fall into those categories thatusually get shoved at a three
and a five-year.
And they don't get done all thatfrequently because of that.
(21:16):
Facilities have an interestingholding pattern for those kinds
of projects called deferredmaintenance.
And it's frustrating to see thatcritical project like a roof
repair being pushed back yearafter year because they do
five-year plan reviews everyyear.
And it might take that 50-yeargoal years before it's actually
(21:40):
implemented.
Those expensive infrastructureitems always get bumped down the
line.
And how you defer themaintenance in terms of the
buildup of capital requirements?
Well, projects have to besubmitted on a regular basis in
order to try to create a newtimeline.
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
So a fifth-year goal might not be completed until
year 15.
Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
Unfortunately, yeah.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
One of the lessons I learned inmanufacturing is simple.
Cash is king.
If the organization doesn't haveenough liquidity to cover its
payroll and its overhead, thereis no money for deferred
maintenance.
It's only those issues thatbegin to impact the
profitability that are going toget prioritized, especially when
(22:27):
an organization has a very smallprofit margin like grocery
stores.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
So how would you summarize the leadership
challenge of being effective instrategic analysis?
SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
Well, I found probably the answer is the same
year after year, but you have tobuild up trust in order to
present your situationalanalysis.
In my case, it was called acapital asset report.
And the more I can ground mysuggestions in terms of facts
and tell them where our currentconditions are, it the easier it
(23:02):
is to communicate the sense ofurgency.
This isn't about persuasion.
It's about building consensusand helping the organization
chart the best path forward withthe resources that are
available.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Like the wise men and the funny man used to say,
and the truth will set you free.
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Yeah, exactly.
But they had an interestinglist.
When I have asked this question,um, they came up with this list
about the 25 enhancementsdecision-making strategies.
And I think it's worthwhile toprobably summarize what's going
on today.
How do executive decisions worknowadays in 2025?
(23:43):
AI augmented decisions now arebeing used, where the computer
is now the tool that'ssupporting 70% of the data
collection, an intensive taskthat it does a very good job of
doing analysis and forecastingfrom the data.
The trouble is that the AI isbasically doing with the
information it has, and it can'tdetect warning signals like
(24:07):
capital allocations and changeof the marketplace.
It's more data in and data out.
Then there's cooperativeframeworks where
cross-functional teams shareownership and improve the
decision-making quality.
They do things like the S-Bar,but it becomes more of a hybrid
team.
And they're ensuring diversityof perspectives and shaping
(24:32):
strategic outcomes becausethey're more inclusive in terms
of how they're coming up withtheir decisions.
Greg, I think you have a coupleof examples.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
So let's talk about strategic inclusion.
Diversity, equity, and inclusionis now a competitive advantage,
not just a social one.
We talk about casting a widernet, getting talented people,
qualified people, but maybe adifferent perspective, diversity
of thought.
You want to build diverse teamsto enhance innovation and client
(25:00):
alignment.
Definitely something we've seenin the last five, six years,
mental health and trust.
Workplace loneliness andpsychological safety directly
impacts performance.
You want to make sure you'refostering open dialogue, admit
to those mistakes, and buildtrust through fact-based
leadership.
And then finally, agile planningmodes.
(25:21):
Traditional five-year plans areevolving into dynamic one,
three, and five-year frameworks.
You want to make sure you alignshort-term ROI with long-term
vision as the environmentshifts.
John?
SPEAKER_01 (25:36):
So hopefully uh Greg and I have answered some of
those questions that you'llencounter in terms of critical
decision making, whether it bestrategic, whether it be
tactical, or situational, thoserules and those guidelines help.
So if you like what you'veheard, I've written a book
(25:58):
called Building Your LeadershipToolbox, and we talk about tools
like this.
And it's available on Amazon andBarnes and Nouvel and other
sites.
The podcast is what you've beenlistening to.
Thank you so much.
It's also available on Apple,Google, and Spotify.
A lot of what we talk about isfrom Dr.
Durst and his MBR program.
If you'd like to know more aboutDr.
Durst, you can find out onSuccessGrowthAcademy.com.
(26:22):
And if you'd like to contact us,please send me a line.
That's Wando75 periodjw atgmail.com.
And the music has been broughtto you by my grandson.
So we want to hear from you.
Drop me a line.
Tell me what's going on, whatyou like, and what you would
like to hear about.
(26:43):
It has always helped us tocreate content.
Thanks, Greg.
This was fun.
Thanks, John.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
As always.
Next time.
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Yeah.
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