July 4, 2025 • 21 mins
Failure isn't just inevitable in leadership—it's essential. This eye-opening conversation tackles the myth that great leaders emerge fully formed, revealing instead how true leadership is forged through stumbles, self-reflection, and resilience.
We dive deep into Shane Wentz's fascinating journey from Army sergeant to corporate transformation specialist, exploring his three-pronged approach to leadership development. First, immerse yourself in leadership literature—become what Shane calls a "leadership nerd." Second, reflect honestly on leaders you've worked under, learning equally from the inspiring and the toxic. Finally, embrace failure as your most powerful teacher.
The most compelling revelation? Organizational transformation doesn't happen in executive boardrooms. It bubbles up from the shop floor, through frontline employees willing to adapt, listen, and drive change. As Shane discovered when turning around Summit Manufacturing, skeptical workforces become change champions when they develop ownership.
We also tackle the challenging transition from peer to leader—that awkward moment when friends become direct reports. Both hosts share personal experiences navigating this delicate boundary, offering practical wisdom on creating appropriate professional distance without sacrificing authentic connection.
For those impatient about career advancement, this episode delivers a sobering reminder: leadership mastery requires approximately 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. The journey demands patience, purpose, and preparation—whether you're climbing the HR ladder or pursuing leadership in any field.
Ready to build your leadership toolbox? Listen to Podcast hosts John Wandolowski and Greg Powell now, and discover why Churchill was right: success truly is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.
Presented by John Wandolowski and Greg Powell
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome to Success Secrets and Stories.
I'm your host, john Wondolowski, and I'm here with my co-host
and friend, greg Powell.
Greg, hey, buddy, yeah.
So today we are going to betalking about something that I
(00:38):
did when I was looking at myresearch for today's discussion
and when I'm looking fordifferent subjects, I'm looking
for things that remind me ofleadership and the things that
you should possibly look into,something that might be able to
help you in terms of leadership.
So in my research I was lookingfor articles that I thought
(00:59):
were interesting and in theprocess of finding an article
and doing the research about theperson who wrote it, shane
Wentz.
He also did a book recently andthe book is intriguing.
The title, I think, was moreinteresting than his article
Leading Without a Title how toBuild, influence and Drive
(01:20):
Change, and the book is veryclose to the things that we
talked about in the MBR side ofit how supervisors and sergeants
within the army and people infrontline positions really do
make a change and are really thedrivers of most organizations
(01:43):
In the book's description whenthey talk about it.
He talks about transformationisn't about rolling out new
initiatives.
It's about reshaping mindsets,breaking down resistance and
building a culture where changeisn't just acceptable but it's
embraced isn't just acceptable,but it's embraced.
(02:05):
When Sean stepped into SummitManufacturing the company that
was on its brink, plagued byinefficiencies, low morale and a
workforce that was skeptical onthe things that needed to do to
do a turnaround.
But transformation isn'thappening in the boardrooms or
in executive offices.
It happens on the shop floor,through the daily habits of
(02:28):
frontline employees, throughtheir willingness to listen,
adapt and execute.
I'm going to stop there and saywhen I read that as a
description of his book, I washooked in terms of someone who
was a common spirit of what itis that we need to do in order
to make a change and we all havethat opportunity.
(02:49):
And it doesn't happen from topdown as much as it happens from
bottom up until there's a buy-infrom the people who are
actually doing the work.
It's nothing more than words.
A little bit more into thedescription that I thought was
intriguing In his book.
It talks about the high-stakeworld of operational turnarounds
(03:12):
, sharing real-world leadershiplessons drawn from his
experiences leadingtransformations in both military
and global corporations aroundthe world and global
corporations around the world.
Through engaging stories,actionable strategies.
This book would show why mostchange efforts fail, and how to
(03:34):
make yours stick, or how to beturnaround skeptics into
champions to create a culture ofownership.
Another element from his bookis key principles of sustainable
improvement from the shop floorto the C-suite.
So all those things kind ofrang a bell.
A little bit more researchabout Shane, and I see an image
(03:59):
of him in uniform, greg, maybeyou can take that description
from that little moment in timethat I saw.
It was pretty intriguing thatwe had talked about Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Thanks, john.
So let's give you a little bitof a biography of Dr Shane Wentz
PhD.
So Shane Wentz joined the Armyin 1991, and he spent the first
eight years of his career in themilitary intelligence field
before he became a careercounselor.
During his final four years inthe army, shane got involved in
(04:32):
Lean Six Sigma and earned hisblack belt and then master black
belt certifications.
During his 20 year career Shanetraveled the world, living in
five states as well as Germany.
He also deployed twice insupport of Operation Enduring
Freedom.
So let's talk a little bitabout Shane Wendt's.
Phd Started off US Army Lean SixSigma Master Black Belt.
(04:57):
Then he worked for Siemens asSenior Director of Business
Excellence.
He did that for three years.
He didn't stop there.
He went on to Nike.
He was a director of lean andquality for NA distribution for
two years.
Then he went to Radio Inc.
He was head of operationalexcellence and business
transformation and he did thatfor four years.
(05:18):
Then he went academic,university of Louisville adjunct
faculty member for three yearsand more recently, the last six
years, coo and lead consultantat a change in latitude
consultancy.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And all those things he did after the Army, and it
was interesting how he broughtthe quality and tried to change
organizations.
And then I guess this was allmy buildup to get to his article
that really intrigued me.
It was LinkedIn post on June20th of 2018.
And it started off.
(05:56):
Failure, it must be an optionif you want to be a good leader.
It just rings in my head,winston Churchill, success is
going from failure to failurewithout a loss of enthusiasm.
And if anybody understood howto lead, winston Churchill is
(06:17):
one of my examples of someonewho was a wonderful leader in
the hardest of times.
Shane goes on in his very firstparagraph Leadership, like life
, is a journey no-transcript,and I thought this was so dead
(06:51):
on in terms of understandingthat life doesn't give you all
the answers.
You kind of develop them asthey go along.
Greg, why don't you start usoff?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
with his overview.
So first step to becoming aleader, and I'm going to speak
in terms of Shane.
As my journey to become abetter leader has evolved, I
have focused on three differentapproaches to improving my
leadership abilities.
First, I like to read books andarticles on leadership.
Call me a leadership nerd, butI love books about leadership.
(07:24):
There are plenty of them outthere and some are better than
others.
But give me an autobiographicalbook on a leader I admire and I
am consumed for days.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And that was one of the things when I was reading
this article.
I mean, my book is telling youyou should read about leadership
to build your toolbox, and thisis something that he said from
his very get-go of his firstpoint it's up to you to do the
research.
I thought it was amazing.
Anyway, Thanks, John.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So, secondly, shane said I spent a lot of time
thinking about leaders I havehad in the past.
I've been fortunate to work forsome great leaders in my career
with such organizations as theUS Army, siemens and Nike career
with such organizations as theUS Army, siemens and Nike.
Reflecting on what I considerthem to be good leaders, how
they acted and responded asleaders, and internalizing that
(08:19):
as a sort of comparison of how Ibelieve I respond as a leader,
really helps me grow personallyand professionally.
It isn't always a great image Isee of myself when I do this
personal reflection, but Ireally believe that
self-reflection helps me becomea better leader.
Observations of leadership thatShane's worked for, of course,
(08:39):
over the last several years inthose same companies mentioned,
he had some, let's just say, notso great leaders.
I'm sure you know the type.
At the end of the day, you gohome, sit down, just shake your
head and wonder how in the worlddid that person ever get into a
leadership position?
I truly believe that you learnnot just from the good examples,
(09:00):
but you learn from the bad onesas well.
Sometimes you learn more fromthe bad leaders than you do from
the good ones.
So he was talking to hiscurrent boss the other day, had
a great conversation about somenot so great leaders they had
over the years.
He shared with me three badleaders he worked with over the
years and how he learnedsomething from each of them.
(09:22):
I'll never forget a leader I hadseveral years ago.
He was all about himself.
He created a climate wherenobody on the leadership team
trusted each other.
I tried to coach him andleverage every trick I knew to
try and make him realize whatwas happening was just not good,
but the guy was just plaintoxic.
I then found out he wassleeping with some of his
(09:43):
employees and doing things thatare just plain unacceptable for
any leader, especially one athis level.
I stay awake many nightsthinking about that very
valuable but hard lesson Ilearned from him, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
And some of our experiences.
We're not going to find peoplethat we want to emulate the
element of self-awareness andthe ability to understand that
there's broken people that arein leadership.
There's opportunities sometimesto make that change, to manage
up and help change out thatmanagement team.
And then there's times whereyou have to leave because that's
(10:19):
the inevitable part of making adecision about your career.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
So Shane said the final approach he used in his
journey to become a betterleader is to always learn from
failure.
We've talked before aboutlearning from mistakes.
To me, one of the best ways welearn is to fail.
If you are afraid of failing,then you are afraid of improving
.
When you talk to successfulbusiness people, they are
normally more than willing totell you stories of how they
(10:45):
have failed many times in theircareer.
If it wasn't for those failures, they wouldn't be where they
are today.
Same thing with athletes.
In one of his favorite quotesby Michael Jordan, he says I've
missed more than 9,000 shots inmy career.
I've lost almost 300 basketballgames.
26 times I've been trusted totake the game-winning shot and I
(11:09):
missed.
I failed over and over and overagain in my life.
Unless you buy into the beliefthat great leaders were just
born that way, it wouldn't makesome sense that you're going to
fail many times in your careeras you learn to become a better
leader.
Here's the conclusion Shanesays.
When I look at my personalleadership journey, I can
honestly say that I've failed alot.
(11:31):
My first leadership positionwas as a young man in the army
probably 20 or 21 years old, andI was responsible for a team of
five people.
It was in Germany and I wasfortunate enough to work with a
great group of guys and we had alot of fun together.
When you're in your early 20sand you can legally drink and
you're in a foreign country withnightclubs, tourist
(11:52):
destinations are surrounded by agreat group of friends.
There's something you willnever forget when I got promoted
, that group of friends suddenlybecame my team and overnight
things changed.
Looking back, I did a horriblejob of separating being their
boss from being their leader.
I can think of many examplesover the years of where I failed
(12:14):
as a leader.
The important thing is that Ibelieve I've learned from most
of those failures.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
John, and you know that just reminds me of my
experience when I started off myfirst position as a supervisor
and a second shift for amaintenance department and a
second shift for a maintenancedepartment.
They were actually coaching meand saying that that kind of
relationship between theemployees and the supervisor can
be compromised and you have tocreate a distance.
(12:40):
I didn't understand what thatmeant at the beginning.
It didn't take long before Irealized that wisdom of creating
that separation because itwould be easier to lead them.
Realize that wisdom of creatingthat separation because it'd be
easier to lead them, especiallywhen at times, you'd have to
correct them.
Unfortunately, on thoseoccasions where you had to fire
someone, it is so hard to fire afriend and it's really the
(13:04):
toughest part of being a leaderHarding advice from shame.
So I guess, to sum it up, whatI am recommending to all leaders
out there is don't be afraid tofail.
Actually, embrace failure andmake sure you learn from it.
And as I concluded his article,it just rang the bell that this
(13:26):
is exactly what I wrote my bookabout building your leadership
toolbox.
It's exactly the element ofinvesting in yourself to develop
your leadership style fromeither reading or questioning
your leaders or observing yourleaders, you will find that path
of what you need to take interms of being a leader.
(13:47):
My book is called Building yourLeadership Toolbox, and the
whole idea is what do you putinto that toolbox?
Shane's book is one of thosethings that you should be
putting into your toolbox.
This is actually a managementstyle I picked up from a
gentleman by the name of MichaelDurst who did a thing called
MBR Management by Responsibilityand its goal is to share key
(14:09):
lessons that I gleaned in thecourse of my life applying the
MBR concepts.
So to give you not only theopportunity to see what it
looked like in terms of myobservations and the environment
, but some of the leaders that Iwould simply talk about in
terms of following, or some ofthem in terms of how they
(14:31):
basically were angry with theworld or walking over their
peers in order to be successful.
That whole thing about beingself-aware is the key that I
think we're both trying to talkabout.
Shane was a sergeant in thearmy.
I was a second shift supervisorin a manufacturing plant.
(14:56):
Leaders are developed over time.
There is always a learningcurve in terms of understanding
your environment, your assets,your skills in order to be
prepared for advancement to yournext position, your next career
.
No one comes out of college andstarts off as a CEO unless your
family owns the company.
(15:16):
It's just that simple.
You have to go through thatlearning curve, that learning
process.
The vast majority of us willearn our advancements through
the world of working.
We'll put in the time we'llprepare for the work that we
need to do and what it takes tobe advanced.
But remember, it takes over10,000 hours to be an expert in
(15:39):
a specific field.
Leadership is a field.
It talks about 10,000 hoursbefore you're going to be
considered a true expert withinthe field of leadership.
It's all the time that youinvest into it is the key of
whether you're going to besuccessful or not.
So, greg, maybe you can putinto context how leadership
(16:05):
happens in an HR environment.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Sure, john, it kind of depends on what path you go,
if you want to be the specialistor you want to be the
generalist.
Specialist means laborrelations.
That's all I'm doing.
I want to work my way up inlabor relations, work with
contracts, union stewards, or Iwant to be a generalist.
I want to have a variety ofthings under my control, things
like staffing, learning anddevelopment, total rewards,
(16:28):
culture, diversity, inclusion.
So it depends on what path youwant to go.
Education-wise, a lot of folksjust get a degree in like
sociology, psychology or what'sbetter is, human resources
management Fantastic education.
And then you need to get somecertifications.
I recommend SPHR, which is asenior professional in human
resources.
That will help you becausebroad-based on the HR activities
(16:49):
you learn about, but somedayyou want to lead these, so you
need to know a little bit aboutthem individually.
And then the years ofexperience it's kind of what we
like to say depends.
If you're in a small company,you might move up that ladder
very quickly if you'reaccomplishing things and they
have a need.
In a larger company it may takeyou a little longer because of
competition and just time.
(17:09):
We like to say if you're goingto be a recruiter, get a couple
of years in.
First, follow yourself, do ayear, see what you can do better
.
The next year I'd say the samething in training and
development, the same thing incomp and benefits.
Of the next year I'd say thesame thing in training and
development, same thing in compand benefits.
Learning and development, allof those.
It's better to have a good year, do another year and go from
there.
There's not really rigid linesof you must be in this job five
(17:30):
years.
You must be in this job eightyears.
It used to be that way.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
But I think the five years, the eight years to that,
10,000 hours.
So you figure 2,000 hours peryear.
And let's face it, in a givenyear you're not doing HR things
every minute of every day, butto learn your craft for people
who are getting in and expectingpromotions within a year,
(17:54):
within a year and a half, withintwo years, you may not have
experienced enough to understandwhat's involved, all the
nuances of the position and,more than likely, when you take
that next jump you're stillgoing to have to have time to
learn the craft, learn that nextlevel of management.
So I guess in my head thereshould be some patience to be
(18:17):
able to come up with some goodgroundwork.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So I have an example of me.
Years ago I became an officerfor a company, became a vice
president.
I remember when the individualthat promoted me gave me the
promotion, he looked at me rightin the eye and said Greg, I'm
making you vice president ofhuman resources for this part of
our business, for this sectionof our business, but you're not
really a vice president yet.
I'm giving you the title.
You're going to have to earnthat and learn that along the
(18:42):
way.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So take the title, pay your dues learn dig in and
then it'll happen.
When did you feel reallyeffective in terms of being a
vice president?
How long after that did youreally feel like you were
affecting change?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I would say at least a year, probably a little longer
before I felt really you know,really really good in the job,
but at least a year.
And again, part of that is thatcycle.
You know, go through a cycle ofbudgets, go through a cycle of
reduction in force, sadly, gothrough a cycle of human
resource, information systemskind of thing You've got.
You just can't get in there fora couple of months and then you
(19:18):
learn and know it all.
You got to follow yourself,make sure things work that
you're putting into place.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
And I will challenge you to say that that first year
was understanding the basics andyou hit your stride in the
second year because now you wereable to make changes from the
observations that you made thefirst year.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
From the observations and from the mistakes.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Okay, yes, from the failures, from the mistakes
Exactly my point.
So everybody that gets intodifferent positions and are
talking about when am I readyfor leadership?
When am I ready to take thatnext step?
Failure is part of it.
Time is part of it.
Having purpose and doing yourhomework.
Understand, if you're going tomake a change, invest in the
(20:02):
time to understand.
When you say I want a career,those are not just words.
You're serious about what thatmeans five years from now, 10
years from now, 15 years fromnow.
Understand you're making adecision on how you want to
leave your work life, yourprofessional life, even your
home life, your professionallife, even your home life.
Have some pre-thought ratherthan waking up 15 years down the
(20:26):
road going how did I get here?
I thought I would have beenable to be advanced a long time
ago.
It really does mean that youhave to have some pre-thought
and hopefully this podcast helpstry to rattle that cage of
helping you to take a look andsee what other opportunities are
and whether you're prepared ornot.
So, if you like what we talkabout on this podcast, I have a
(20:52):
book called Building yourLeadership Toolbox.
I've already talked about thatenough.
It's available on Amazon andBarnes Noble.
The podcast which you'relistening to, thank you,
available in other formats likeApple and Google and Spotify.
We talked about Dr Durst, andhis material in terms of MBR is
available onsuccessgrowthacademycom.
If you want to get a hold of me, my email address is wando75.jw
(21:19):
at gmailcom and Greg.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I can be reached at gpowell374 at gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, and the music is brought to you by my grandson
, so we want to hear from you.
Send us a line.
We have learned a lot and wehave modified our program to try
to accommodate some of yourquests.
And, um, yeah, it's been fun.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
So thanks Greg, thanks John, as always, next
time yeah.
Welcome to Success Secrets and Stories.
I'm your host, john Wondolowski, and I'm here with my co-host
and friend, greg Powell.
Greg, hey, buddy, yeah.
So today we are going to betalking about something that I
(00:38):
did when I was looking at myresearch for today's discussion
and when I'm looking fordifferent subjects, I'm looking
for things that remind me ofleadership and the things that
you should possibly look into,something that might be able to
help you in terms of leadership.
So in my research I was lookingfor articles that I thought
(00:59):
were interesting and in theprocess of finding an article
and doing the research about theperson who wrote it, shane
Wentz.
He also did a book recently andthe book is intriguing.
The title, I think, was moreinteresting than his article
Leading Without a Title how toBuild, influence and Drive
(01:20):
Change, and the book is veryclose to the things that we
talked about in the MBR side ofit how supervisors and sergeants
within the army and people infrontline positions really do
make a change and are really thedrivers of most organizations
(01:43):
In the book's description whenthey talk about it.
He talks about transformationisn't about rolling out new
initiatives.
It's about reshaping mindsets,breaking down resistance and
building a culture where changeisn't just acceptable but it's
embraced isn't just acceptable,but it's embraced.
(02:05):
When Sean stepped into SummitManufacturing the company that
was on its brink, plagued byinefficiencies, low morale and a
workforce that was skeptical onthe things that needed to do to
do a turnaround.
But transformation isn'thappening in the boardrooms or
in executive offices.
It happens on the shop floor,through the daily habits of
(02:28):
frontline employees, throughtheir willingness to listen,
adapt and execute.
I'm going to stop there and saywhen I read that as a
description of his book, I washooked in terms of someone who
was a common spirit of what itis that we need to do in order
to make a change and we all havethat opportunity.
(02:49):
And it doesn't happen from topdown as much as it happens from
bottom up until there's a buy-infrom the people who are
actually doing the work.
It's nothing more than words.
A little bit more into thedescription that I thought was
intriguing In his book.
It talks about the high-stakeworld of operational turnarounds
(03:12):
, sharing real-world leadershiplessons drawn from his
experiences leadingtransformations in both military
and global corporations aroundthe world and global
corporations around the world.
Through engaging stories,actionable strategies.
This book would show why mostchange efforts fail, and how to
(03:34):
make yours stick, or how to beturnaround skeptics into
champions to create a culture ofownership.
Another element from his bookis key principles of sustainable
improvement from the shop floorto the C-suite.
So all those things kind ofrang a bell.
A little bit more researchabout Shane, and I see an image
(03:59):
of him in uniform, greg, maybeyou can take that description
from that little moment in timethat I saw.
It was pretty intriguing thatwe had talked about Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Thanks, john.
So let's give you a little bitof a biography of Dr Shane Wentz
PhD.
So Shane Wentz joined the Armyin 1991, and he spent the first
eight years of his career in themilitary intelligence field
before he became a careercounselor.
During his final four years inthe army, shane got involved in
(04:32):
Lean Six Sigma and earned hisblack belt and then master black
belt certifications.
During his 20 year career Shanetraveled the world, living in
five states as well as Germany.
He also deployed twice insupport of Operation Enduring
Freedom.
So let's talk a little bitabout Shane Wendt's.
Phd Started off US Army Lean SixSigma Master Black Belt.
(04:57):
Then he worked for Siemens asSenior Director of Business
Excellence.
He did that for three years.
He didn't stop there.
He went on to Nike.
He was a director of lean andquality for NA distribution for
two years.
Then he went to Radio Inc.
He was head of operationalexcellence and business
transformation and he did thatfor four years.
(05:18):
Then he went academic,university of Louisville adjunct
faculty member for three yearsand more recently, the last six
years, coo and lead consultantat a change in latitude
consultancy.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And all those things he did after the Army, and it
was interesting how he broughtthe quality and tried to change
organizations.
And then I guess this was allmy buildup to get to his article
that really intrigued me.
It was LinkedIn post on June20th of 2018.
And it started off.
(05:56):
Failure, it must be an optionif you want to be a good leader.
It just rings in my head,winston Churchill, success is
going from failure to failurewithout a loss of enthusiasm.
And if anybody understood howto lead, winston Churchill is
(06:17):
one of my examples of someonewho was a wonderful leader in
the hardest of times.
Shane goes on in his very firstparagraph Leadership, like life
, is a journey no-transcript,and I thought this was so dead
(06:51):
on in terms of understandingthat life doesn't give you all
the answers.
You kind of develop them asthey go along.
Greg, why don't you start usoff?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
with his overview.
So first step to becoming aleader, and I'm going to speak
in terms of Shane.
As my journey to become abetter leader has evolved, I
have focused on three differentapproaches to improving my
leadership abilities.
First, I like to read books andarticles on leadership.
Call me a leadership nerd, butI love books about leadership.
(07:24):
There are plenty of them outthere and some are better than
others.
But give me an autobiographicalbook on a leader I admire and I
am consumed for days.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And that was one of the things when I was reading
this article.
I mean, my book is telling youyou should read about leadership
to build your toolbox, and thisis something that he said from
his very get-go of his firstpoint it's up to you to do the
research.
I thought it was amazing.
Anyway, Thanks, John.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So, secondly, shane said I spent a lot of time
thinking about leaders I havehad in the past.
I've been fortunate to work forsome great leaders in my career
with such organizations as theUS Army, siemens and Nike career
with such organizations as theUS Army, siemens and Nike.
Reflecting on what I considerthem to be good leaders, how
they acted and responded asleaders, and internalizing that
(08:19):
as a sort of comparison of how Ibelieve I respond as a leader,
really helps me grow personallyand professionally.
It isn't always a great image Isee of myself when I do this
personal reflection, but Ireally believe that
self-reflection helps me becomea better leader.
Observations of leadership thatShane's worked for, of course,
(08:39):
over the last several years inthose same companies mentioned,
he had some, let's just say, notso great leaders.
I'm sure you know the type.
At the end of the day, you gohome, sit down, just shake your
head and wonder how in the worlddid that person ever get into a
leadership position?
I truly believe that you learnnot just from the good examples,
(09:00):
but you learn from the bad onesas well.
Sometimes you learn more fromthe bad leaders than you do from
the good ones.
So he was talking to hiscurrent boss the other day, had
a great conversation about somenot so great leaders they had
over the years.
He shared with me three badleaders he worked with over the
years and how he learnedsomething from each of them.
(09:22):
I'll never forget a leader I hadseveral years ago.
He was all about himself.
He created a climate wherenobody on the leadership team
trusted each other.
I tried to coach him andleverage every trick I knew to
try and make him realize whatwas happening was just not good,
but the guy was just plaintoxic.
I then found out he wassleeping with some of his
(09:43):
employees and doing things thatare just plain unacceptable for
any leader, especially one athis level.
I stay awake many nightsthinking about that very
valuable but hard lesson Ilearned from him, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
And some of our experiences.
We're not going to find peoplethat we want to emulate the
element of self-awareness andthe ability to understand that
there's broken people that arein leadership.
There's opportunities sometimesto make that change, to manage
up and help change out thatmanagement team.
And then there's times whereyou have to leave because that's
(10:19):
the inevitable part of making adecision about your career.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
So Shane said the final approach he used in his
journey to become a betterleader is to always learn from
failure.
We've talked before aboutlearning from mistakes.
To me, one of the best ways welearn is to fail.
If you are afraid of failing,then you are afraid of improving
.
When you talk to successfulbusiness people, they are
normally more than willing totell you stories of how they
(10:45):
have failed many times in theircareer.
If it wasn't for those failures, they wouldn't be where they
are today.
Same thing with athletes.
In one of his favorite quotesby Michael Jordan, he says I've
missed more than 9,000 shots inmy career.
I've lost almost 300 basketballgames.
26 times I've been trusted totake the game-winning shot and I
(11:09):
missed.
I failed over and over and overagain in my life.
Unless you buy into the beliefthat great leaders were just
born that way, it wouldn't makesome sense that you're going to
fail many times in your careeras you learn to become a better
leader.
Here's the conclusion Shanesays.
When I look at my personalleadership journey, I can
honestly say that I've failed alot.
(11:31):
My first leadership positionwas as a young man in the army
probably 20 or 21 years old, andI was responsible for a team of
five people.
It was in Germany and I wasfortunate enough to work with a
great group of guys and we had alot of fun together.
When you're in your early 20sand you can legally drink and
you're in a foreign country withnightclubs, tourist
(11:52):
destinations are surrounded by agreat group of friends.
There's something you willnever forget when I got promoted
, that group of friends suddenlybecame my team and overnight
things changed.
Looking back, I did a horriblejob of separating being their
boss from being their leader.
I can think of many examplesover the years of where I failed
(12:14):
as a leader.
The important thing is that Ibelieve I've learned from most
of those failures.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
John, and you know that just reminds me of my
experience when I started off myfirst position as a supervisor
and a second shift for amaintenance department and a
second shift for a maintenancedepartment.
They were actually coaching meand saying that that kind of
relationship between theemployees and the supervisor can
be compromised and you have tocreate a distance.
(12:40):
I didn't understand what thatmeant at the beginning.
It didn't take long before Irealized that wisdom of creating
that separation because itwould be easier to lead them.
Realize that wisdom of creatingthat separation because it'd be
easier to lead them, especiallywhen at times, you'd have to
correct them.
Unfortunately, on thoseoccasions where you had to fire
someone, it is so hard to fire afriend and it's really the
(13:04):
toughest part of being a leaderHarding advice from shame.
So I guess, to sum it up, whatI am recommending to all leaders
out there is don't be afraid tofail.
Actually, embrace failure andmake sure you learn from it.
And as I concluded his article,it just rang the bell that this
(13:26):
is exactly what I wrote my bookabout building your leadership
toolbox.
It's exactly the element ofinvesting in yourself to develop
your leadership style fromeither reading or questioning
your leaders or observing yourleaders, you will find that path
of what you need to take interms of being a leader.
(13:47):
My book is called Building yourLeadership Toolbox, and the
whole idea is what do you putinto that toolbox?
Shane's book is one of thosethings that you should be
putting into your toolbox.
This is actually a managementstyle I picked up from a
gentleman by the name of MichaelDurst who did a thing called
MBR Management by Responsibilityand its goal is to share key
(14:09):
lessons that I gleaned in thecourse of my life applying the
MBR concepts.
So to give you not only theopportunity to see what it
looked like in terms of myobservations and the environment
, but some of the leaders that Iwould simply talk about in
terms of following, or some ofthem in terms of how they
(14:31):
basically were angry with theworld or walking over their
peers in order to be successful.
That whole thing about beingself-aware is the key that I
think we're both trying to talkabout.
Shane was a sergeant in thearmy.
I was a second shift supervisorin a manufacturing plant.
(14:56):
Leaders are developed over time.
There is always a learningcurve in terms of understanding
your environment, your assets,your skills in order to be
prepared for advancement to yournext position, your next career
.
No one comes out of college andstarts off as a CEO unless your
family owns the company.
(15:16):
It's just that simple.
You have to go through thatlearning curve, that learning
process.
The vast majority of us willearn our advancements through
the world of working.
We'll put in the time we'llprepare for the work that we
need to do and what it takes tobe advanced.
But remember, it takes over10,000 hours to be an expert in
(15:39):
a specific field.
Leadership is a field.
It talks about 10,000 hoursbefore you're going to be
considered a true expert withinthe field of leadership.
It's all the time that youinvest into it is the key of
whether you're going to besuccessful or not.
So, greg, maybe you can putinto context how leadership
(16:05):
happens in an HR environment.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Sure, john, it kind of depends on what path you go,
if you want to be the specialistor you want to be the
generalist.
Specialist means laborrelations.
That's all I'm doing.
I want to work my way up inlabor relations, work with
contracts, union stewards, or Iwant to be a generalist.
I want to have a variety ofthings under my control, things
like staffing, learning anddevelopment, total rewards,
(16:28):
culture, diversity, inclusion.
So it depends on what path youwant to go.
Education-wise, a lot of folksjust get a degree in like
sociology, psychology or what'sbetter is, human resources
management Fantastic education.
And then you need to get somecertifications.
I recommend SPHR, which is asenior professional in human
resources.
That will help you becausebroad-based on the HR activities
(16:49):
you learn about, but somedayyou want to lead these, so you
need to know a little bit aboutthem individually.
And then the years ofexperience it's kind of what we
like to say depends.
If you're in a small company,you might move up that ladder
very quickly if you'reaccomplishing things and they
have a need.
In a larger company it may takeyou a little longer because of
competition and just time.
(17:09):
We like to say if you're goingto be a recruiter, get a couple
of years in.
First, follow yourself, do ayear, see what you can do better
.
The next year I'd say the samething in training and
development, the same thing incomp and benefits.
Of the next year I'd say thesame thing in training and
development, same thing in compand benefits.
Learning and development, allof those.
It's better to have a good year, do another year and go from
there.
There's not really rigid linesof you must be in this job five
(17:30):
years.
You must be in this job eightyears.
It used to be that way.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
But I think the five years, the eight years to that,
10,000 hours.
So you figure 2,000 hours peryear.
And let's face it, in a givenyear you're not doing HR things
every minute of every day, butto learn your craft for people
who are getting in and expectingpromotions within a year,
(17:54):
within a year and a half, withintwo years, you may not have
experienced enough to understandwhat's involved, all the
nuances of the position and,more than likely, when you take
that next jump you're stillgoing to have to have time to
learn the craft, learn that nextlevel of management.
So I guess in my head thereshould be some patience to be
(18:17):
able to come up with some goodgroundwork.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So I have an example of me.
Years ago I became an officerfor a company, became a vice
president.
I remember when the individualthat promoted me gave me the
promotion, he looked at me rightin the eye and said Greg, I'm
making you vice president ofhuman resources for this part of
our business, for this sectionof our business, but you're not
really a vice president yet.
I'm giving you the title.
You're going to have to earnthat and learn that along the
(18:42):
way.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So take the title, pay your dues learn dig in and
then it'll happen.
When did you feel reallyeffective in terms of being a
vice president?
How long after that did youreally feel like you were
affecting change?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I would say at least a year, probably a little longer
before I felt really you know,really really good in the job,
but at least a year.
And again, part of that is thatcycle.
You know, go through a cycle ofbudgets, go through a cycle of
reduction in force, sadly, gothrough a cycle of human
resource, information systemskind of thing You've got.
You just can't get in there fora couple of months and then you
(19:18):
learn and know it all.
You got to follow yourself,make sure things work that
you're putting into place.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
And I will challenge you to say that that first year
was understanding the basics andyou hit your stride in the
second year because now you wereable to make changes from the
observations that you made thefirst year.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
From the observations and from the mistakes.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Okay, yes, from the failures, from the mistakes
Exactly my point.
So everybody that gets intodifferent positions and are
talking about when am I readyfor leadership?
When am I ready to take thatnext step?
Failure is part of it.
Time is part of it.
Having purpose and doing yourhomework.
Understand, if you're going tomake a change, invest in the
(20:02):
time to understand.
When you say I want a career,those are not just words.
You're serious about what thatmeans five years from now, 10
years from now, 15 years fromnow.
Understand you're making adecision on how you want to
leave your work life, yourprofessional life, even your
home life, your professionallife, even your home life.
Have some pre-thought ratherthan waking up 15 years down the
(20:26):
road going how did I get here?
I thought I would have beenable to be advanced a long time
ago.
It really does mean that youhave to have some pre-thought
and hopefully this podcast helpstry to rattle that cage of
helping you to take a look andsee what other opportunities are
and whether you're prepared ornot.
So, if you like what we talkabout on this podcast, I have a
(20:52):
book called Building yourLeadership Toolbox.
I've already talked about thatenough.
It's available on Amazon andBarnes Noble.
The podcast which you'relistening to, thank you,
available in other formats likeApple and Google and Spotify.
We talked about Dr Durst, andhis material in terms of MBR is
available onsuccessgrowthacademycom.
If you want to get a hold of me, my email address is wando75.jw
(21:19):
at gmailcom and Greg.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I can be reached at gpowell374 at gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, and the music is brought to you by my grandson
, so we want to hear from you.
Send us a line.
We have learned a lot and wehave modified our program to try
to accommodate some of yourquests.
And, um, yeah, it's been fun.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
So thanks Greg, thanks John, as always, next
time yeah.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.