S5E2 Finding Your Voice Through Conflict

Episode Transcript
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UNKNOWN (00:00):
Ah.

SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Hello fellow weird and wild ones.
It has been a minute.
So much has evolved and changedabout your lovely host and me,

(01:02):
Goddess, and Sunseed communitysince season four of the
podcast.
And I am stoked to share some ofthe dopest folks I've met, and
some of the been in communitywith, and have learned from
along the way in season five ofthe SSC podcast.
So grab your drink, get yoursnacky snacks, and gather your

(01:24):
homies for the end times.
End of what?
I'm really not sure, but Ireally hope it's fascism.
But I digress, differentconversation.
Let's get on with the show.
You are inspiring.

(01:45):
You are inspiring.
You are inspiring at least22,000 times a day.
So inspiring.
You're so inspiring.

SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
I'm Marquesa Tucker-Harris, Executive
Director with the AfricanAmerican Roundtable in
Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Arts Vision is a joyfulpolitical home for Black people
to thrive in liberated andinterconnected communities.
Our mission at the AfricanAmerican Roundtable is to
organize, nurture, and transformBlack leaders to build power in
service of Black liberation.

(02:20):
We get to do such amazing workhere in the city of Milwaukee
alongside residents.
We'd love for you to learn moreabout our work.
Visit us at aartmke.org.

SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Katie, thank you so much for coming on the Sunsuit
Community Podcast.
I'm really excited to have youon today.
I'm going to start off byintroducing you to the folks
that are listening, and thenwe'll get into it.
So Khadija A.
Oluwatoyin is an attorneyspecializing in conflict

(02:53):
resolution and communitybuilding.
Having navigated challengingrelationship dynamics in
adolescence and intentional,transparent conflict resolution
methods as an adult, Khadija hasa distinctive blend of
professional expertise combinedwith a deep understanding of
impactful communicationstrategies.

(03:16):
With her interdisciplinaryapproach, she empowers those she
works with to resolve conflictwithout abandoning themselves
while maintaining integrity andgrace.
I love that part about notabandoning ourselves.
So again, thank you for joiningus.
So who are you bringing into thespace with you today?

(03:37):
And to answer this question, canyou also share your pronouns?

SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
So thank you guys for having me here.
My pronouns are she, her, hers.
And I am bringing, you know, wejust celebrated, for those who
do celebrate Mother's Day,Mother's Day weekend, and I'm
celebrating, I'm bringing intothe space my maternal ancestors.
So my grandmas, great-grandmas,great-great-grandmas on both

(04:07):
sides, my mom's side and mydad's side, my maternal
ancestors, whoever they may be,who have shown me and graced me
with light and love and just alot of good intention and
support.
So I'm bringing them into thespace.

SPEAKER_02 (04:25):
A shade of that.
Yes to the ancestors.
Yeah, I think who I'm bringinginto the space with me.
So before we even started, I wastelling you about Sydney Morgan.
And so I'm definitely bringingher into the space with me.
I just got done with herrestorative justice training and
it just opened me up to so manymore tools around thinking about

(04:48):
how we do this conflict carework.
I'm also bringing in myancestors, always, always,
always, and the lessons I'velearned about how to engage in
conflict and how not to engagein conflict, for sure.
Yeah, so thank you for sharingthat.

SPEAKER_01 (05:08):
Can you mind if I expand a little bit?
Yes! Why?
Yes, please! So in my overallself- self-recovery, just
recovering the self from a lotof misbeliefs and hurtful
theologies that I was raised into practice.

(05:30):
I have learned that a lot ofmaternal figures, including my
mom, you know, at a point ourrelationship was strained,
really underwent a lot ofviolence, even if they don't
recognize it to be violence.
Violence that have been stemmedunder, like, white supremacy,
misogyny, sexism, et cetera, etcetera, that really didn't, in

(05:54):
my opinion, allow them to be whothey are, to communicate in the
way that they wanted to, to showthe light that we all possess.
So with that being said, in myoverall self-recovery, me
creating a new relationship withmy mom and learning from other

(06:14):
people who came before her, myparents don't really like to
talk a lot about our ancestorsbecause of the taboo that comes
with the Yoruba traditionalreligion.
They like to stick with, youknow, talking about Islam and
that part.
But it's like, no, I mean, Iwant to learn and I want to

(06:35):
learn and be in communicationswith that part of who I am also.
And I think that goes to why I'mbringing them in.
I think a lot of times in ourcommunity, in our heritage, in
our lineage, we have been shutdown, taught what to believe,
what to talk about, what not totalk about, what to do.
And even though I don't havetheir full story, I'm bringing

(06:57):
them into this space to be ableto say whatever the H-E.
I don't know if you curse inthis podcast.
Yes,

SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
we do.

SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Yes, I will curse.

UNKNOWN (07:08):
Sorry, curse.

SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
to bring and say whatever the hell they want
because they

SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
have

SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
to do that.
So that's why I'm bringing theminto the space to, you know, to
be able to communicate what Ihave learned since being in not
only my law school and thesecredentials and the programs
that I've been in terms ofcommunication, but also the
spiritual side of communication,of not being afraid to be who

(07:36):
you are and say what you need tosay.
So that's

SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
why.
Okay.
The spiritual side ofcommunication could be its own
podcast episode because there issomething to that.
And I think what you weretalking about around the ways in
which we kind of like view, likewe're taught to view conflict or
like, like the ways in which we,what is like not acceptable or

(08:08):
like normal, I think that thatalso goes into that too of like
the spiritual communication.
Because we are taught,especially as Black folks who
are perceived to be femme or arefemme, there's a certain way in
which we were taught to like putup with things under the guise

(08:29):
of like strength and resilience.
And I think that that feeds intohow we hold conflict and also
like what is the energy withwhich we're like, we're moving
in it.
So could you just like speak tothat for a second?

UNKNOWN (08:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
off topic off of what we have planned but could
you just like say more to thatbecause I think I think it needs
to be in the space

SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
okay so hopefully I am touching well ask the
question one more time just so Ican really make sure I'm
answering to it

SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
yes okay so let me let me consolidate my thoughts
for a second I think what I'masking you is could you say more
of more about how we gauge whatis or isn't acceptable or normal
in relationships and how thatfeeds into spiritual

(09:32):
communication that you'retalking about, spiritual
communication you're talkingabout.

SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
Okay.
I do want to just give the, notthe disclaimer, but the little
pre-note that spiritualcommunication looks different
for a number of people.
For me, how it looks like, I,again, have grown up in a
Nigerian Islamic household whereYou know, when I say things
about my household, I just thinkabout my parents.

(09:58):
I just see them right therelooking at me like, shut up.
But you know what?
No, this is about communication.
And communication involveshonesty and transparency and
truth telling.
I

SPEAKER_03 (10:09):
grew

SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
up not only in a household, but even in a mosque,
in a community.
Even when I went to school, Iwent to a private Catholic
school.
Folks said, why did you go thereif you're Muslim?
My parents thought that they hadthe best education in the town
that I grew up in.
So I grew up, again, withMuslims, Nigerians, and Pakistan

(10:31):
Muslims, and with Catholic Irishpeople.
And throughout my experience ofgrowing up, it just seemed like
children were objects.
It seemed like women wereobjects.
We were told constantly not totalk back, not to say what we're
feeling.
If we feel like we were wronged,we couldn't say that we were

(10:52):
wronged.
felt like you were lying even asan adult i couldn't say that you
were lying even though you werelying um so i have had the
experience of me being a kid andyou know if you ask I was great
when it came to, like, grades,but I always had a disciplinary,
I guess, track since, like, evenmiddle school because they

(11:15):
always said I was defiant, and Iwas.
And I was.
I used to look back and think,like, you know, I used to feel
so ashamed before I startedgetting in tune with my
ancestors of, like, why, youknow, I just couldn't really
listen to adults.
But because I didn't need tolisten to them.
What they were saying wasbullshit.

(11:36):
They weren't embodying.
the adult that I wanted to growup to be.
And now as an adult inself-recovery, recovering
myself, my true being, I canlook back and say, you guys were
absolutely bullshitters.
You guys were absolutely notfollowing your own advice.
You led on control and power,not love and community.

(12:00):
Most of you did nothing for mybetterment.
You did it for your own personalpurpose.
feelings right so for me I therewas a point where I would blame
a lot of my my trauma and Ithink for and I think it was
it's okay like I think there'sstages to accepting things that

(12:22):
have happened to you andprocessing it so there was a
time where I would be like aBlaming a lot of my trauma and
my addiction for those.
I mean, I don't know I'm likefor those of you who don't know
but so when I see him inself-recovery I entered the
self-recovery space throughfalling into addiction of

(12:43):
alcohol in about 2018 and Icouldn't understand how I got
myself into this space so and ihad to one stop drinking and and
do that part right but then ialso the self-recovery part
comes when me understanding howdid i get myself here what
practices and beliefs did ifollow did i live under that

(13:06):
made me think that my life wasnot worth living if i was not
escaping it right because i wasin a hell that i didn't realize
was in the hell but i was in ahell going back a little bit i
would blame certain people andusually you blame like the
paternal figures in your lifebecause the truth is the
maternal figures are the oneswho are there to um who are

(13:27):
present so

SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
fam let me let me stop

SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
so through self through my self recovery i was
like okay you know this tooklike maybe three four years i'm
done blaming folks in my traumanow I'm in the understanding
part of saying like, well, andeven a lot of times I would tell
my mom, like, well, you did thisto me when I was a child.
You know what she would say?
They did it to me too.
And again, that is the cycle of,of disregard for, of hiding who

(13:58):
we are.
We're not able to be.
And we store all our thoughts,all our words, all our
communications, all our feelingsin the body, and we take it out
on the less, on the vulnerable,on the more vulnerable people of
our community, which tends to bechildren and femmes, women,
femmes, like is that women,trans, that

SPEAKER_03 (14:20):
area

SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
of us.
So as I started to, again, youknow, forgive my mom, understood
where she grew up.
You know, she's as old, she'seven older than her country, as
her country has been, what isit, established or, independent,
like

SPEAKER_03 (14:37):
independent.

SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
So I gave her grace.
And then I had to think, like,as I was getting in tune to my
ancestors, I had to think, whatdid they go through?
Oh my gosh.
You know, and being of theYoruba, tribe i know that the
women in our in in nigeria formost lit most lineage they were

(15:02):
the breadwinners they went tothe market and worked they
negotiated they used their wordsto negotiate they used their
words to solve problems in thecommunity but when they went
home did they have that sameopportunity to to speak to say
what was their mind to be theproblem solvers that they are,

(15:22):
innately are.
So for me, spiritualcommunication is be saying
whatever the hell I want,reasonably, right?
Making sure it's true, is itkind?
And not everything has to bekind, but for the most part,
yes, is it kind and is itnecessary?
I do try to follow those lines.
But spiritual communication isalso me taking into account

(15:46):
Everything that I'm goingthrough, I wasn't the first one
to go through that.
However, I'm the first one tospeak about it.
And I'm speaking about thesethings, everything, my
addiction, communication, theproblems I experienced as a
child.
I'm speaking on it, yes, for thefuture, but also for my

(16:08):
ancestors, because I know theywere afforded the opportunity to
speak on certain things.
And that's why That's why I'mthey're giving me, you know, I
lastly would say, you know,Katie did it listen.
She's on the fight.
That was my answer I mean, I'mnot putting the blame on them.
I'm not I'm not putting theblame on them, but I know a Lot

(16:31):
of my spunk because I put oneout of five So why was I the
only one who was like we allgrew up in a mosque?
We all grew up I am me because Iam the the I ancestors
specifically the maternalancestors behind this is what
you get when you don't when youdon't control someone from my my

(16:52):
lineage a woman from my lineage

SPEAKER_02 (16:55):
yeah oh yes all the words um when you were when you
were talking about like theadults you were seeing weren't a
representation of the adult thatyou wanted to be when you grew
up hit so hard because I noticedthat too as a child and I

(17:15):
couldn't put my finger on likewhat it was, but something just
felt off.
Like I was like, you just don't,you don't seem happy.
You don't, there's a part ofyourself that's missing, it
feels like.
And it feels like you're goingthrough the motions for the sake
of something that isn't servingyou.
And I didn't have words for it.
And then as I grew up, I learnedabout self abandonment.

(17:38):
And I was like, that is what itis.
You have been forced and agreedto in so many ways to abandon
parts of yourself.
And now you're demanding andteaching me and other children,
To abandon ourselves.
To abandon ourselves! And alongwith that abandoning and asking

(17:59):
us to be more docile, moreagreeable, it's also asking us
to not have self-accountability.

SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
That part.

SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
Yeah, so that hit.
Thank you.
Okay, let's backtrack a littlebit.
we were like he like dove in thedeep okay could you tell us a
little bit um about the kind ofconflict care work you do um and

(18:38):
like how you came into this work

SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
okay so the kind of work that i do now like yes i
have I do like contracts andcommunications.
So if there's like a breakdownof communication between two
people or businesses, I do.
Yes, I do partake in that typeof communication.
And to me, it is communicationwork because my so I do have a

(19:03):
mediation firm community.
And it's basically teachingfolks in our community.
community, how to interact withone another, and how to handle
conflict.
I graduated law school in 2018.
And as soon as I look, you wouldhave thought that everything was
like roses and gravy.

(19:23):
I got my first, you know,beautiful apartment right on the
waterfront in New York, my dreamcar.
I had a job.
I didn't know if I passed thebar, but, you know, my grades
were good.
I ended up passing the bar.
So you would have thought thatlike life would have been just
so amazing.
But it wasn't.
And I was miserable.
Didn't understand why.
But that's towards theself-recovery phase.

(19:45):
journey that I was telling youabout before.
But thinking on like thecommunication work I did.
So while I was working in firmsand the, I guess, nonprofit
organizations, it just felt verydaunting.
It felt like you were, it feltdaunting and humiliating for two
reasons.
It felt like we were solvingfolks who look like us, Black

(20:10):
folks, their problems, and thensending them out into the world
until they occurred a similarproblem and then come back to
us.
And generally, while they wereworking with us, they didn't
really understand court lingo,how to like maneuver the court
system.
It just felt very empowering,disempowering, excuse me.

(20:34):
And the last time that I workedin like professional legal
setting, I was working indowntown Brooklyn in the,
courthouses down there.
And again, seeing Black folks,people of color, come before the
judge, and now they don't haveattorneys, so they're trying to
mediate or handle this problemon their own in front of the

(20:55):
judge.
The judge would be like, that'snot admissible.
Do you think they know thatthat's not admissible?
Did they go to law school?
Can you give them more contextto why that's not admissible?
And I would just be there.
And I'll be honest, I don't knowwhy I was feeling embarrassed.
I mean, it was embarrassing.
And not on the party's part, butI felt so, I felt a bit of like,

(21:17):
I don't know if it was guilt,shame.
I know it was embarrassment.
The whole thing made me feel souncomfortable.
And I'm just expecting it in theback, waiting for my case to be
heard.
I can only imagine what they arefeeling standing up before this
judge and constantly being told,that's wrong, that's wrong,
that's wrong.
So after, you know, After mylast, I guess, contract or like

(21:44):
firm or what do you call it?
Like nine to five, nine to fivelegal job.
That's when I'm like, what isthe word I'm looking for?
That's when I decided to go intorecovery, you know, deal with my
issues with alcohol.
And then when I came out of it,I said, what am I going to do?
So, you know, I do have anon-profit, so the Black Girls
Club.

(22:05):
So maybe like four or five yearsinto my recovery, I felt like, I
thought I didn't want to knowpractice into the legal sector
anymore but then i was like ohno i do i am a problem solver i
like solutions i like helpingpeople but i don't want to go
back to that setting i don'twant to go back to the setting
of where we are in court withyou know and new york is one of

(22:27):
the most diverse places youcould be in but when you're in
the court system it's still thesame white man I just, and there
are black judges, don't get mewrong, but the majority of what
I was in front of and what I sawwas just, it just didn't sit
right.
And I didn't want to do, Ididn't even want to work in a

(22:47):
firm anymore.
I just didn't want to be in thatsetting anymore.
So I was thinking about like,what is it that I can do?
And mediation came in mind.
However, I did do some mediationas an attorney for certain
firms, but it wasn't the type ofmediation that I, again, it was
more of, you say what you thinkthe other party say what they

(23:08):
think and then i create thissolution i felt like especially
in this time of age we should behelping the parties the
participants create thesolutions from themselves we
should be navigating and helpingthem see what happened what
could have What what could havebeen done better and where do we

(23:29):
go from here and not everysituation is Equal for example
right now again.
I'm doing like contracts betweenthese two business that are
helping them mediate They don'twant to go to court which is
fine.
I'm helping them, but oh, youknow for me It's the cases of
family members of friends ofneighbors souls are the the the

(23:50):
cases that I get that really areor this is why I'm doing this.
This is why I created CommunityAct.
How can we act in community evenwhen there's a conflict, even
when there's a disagreement?
How can we recognize, how can webe accountable?
How can we recognize what wentwrong and is this relationship

(24:10):
worth saving and worth goingright for?
Some are not.
Some are just like, you knowwhat?
You guys have been best friendsfor a while because you guys are
in proximity with each other.
It doesn't look like you guysshare the same values at all.
That's what I want Community Actto embody.

(24:31):
And that's why I createdCommunity Act.
So for me, Community Act is thiscommunity-based mediation
practice where folks learn tosolve problems conflict or
navigate conflict createsolutions where they don't have
to feel like they're abandoningthemselves because the
traditional legal system andtraditional mediation practices

(24:53):
are saying you're wrong and i'mright that's not real life
that's not real life at all youknow a lot of times we see
situations where someone maybe aparty has overreacted right
about something and then whenyou get into it you talk you'll
hear about 10 000 things thathappened before this person

(25:13):
overreacted and that i think isvery common in the black and
people of color communitybecause we're afraid to
communicate i think that blackfolks especially and i'm saying
this as a person who's workingwho works with a lot of black
women um through my nonprofit ofa blacklist club constantly
hearing I didn't want to sayanything because I didn't want

(25:35):
to get in trouble.
Or I didn't want to say anythingbecause I didn't want to look
like an angry black woman.
Or I didn't want to saysomething because of this and
that.
And it all, you know, we canall, for the most part, and I
don't want to say all of us, butyou know, some of us, most of us
can look back to when we werekids and we were constantly told
to be quiet, stop talking.
You know, when you go into astore, don't touch anything.
You don't want to be You don'twant to be seen or heard.

(25:58):
And our parents or the adultsaround us might have been
telling us this because of ourprotection.
They don't want white people toeven notice us, leave us the
hell alone.
But we also have to see andunderstand how that has
contributed to our lack ofwillingness to speak.
be in community.
And when I mean be in community,it was all conflict because in

(26:19):
any community, there's going tobe some type of conflict.
So that's what encouraged me tocreate Community Act because I
think to live a full life, wehave to be free of feeling like
if we say what we're, if we saywhat we're feeling, or if we

(26:39):
say, you know, a problem that wehave, then we're going to be
abandon or we're going to be umostracized or there's going to
be this big big blow up and andi'm here to tell people it
doesn't have to be like that itcouldn't you can't control
anyone but yourself but i feellike if you understand what is

(27:00):
it that you want to say why isit you want to say it and if you
understand certain methods, forexample, if I'm hot about
something and I want to have aconversation with you and solve
this problem we have, maybetoday might not be the good day
to do it.
And I think sometimes, like alot of clients that I've had in
the past, they feel like, well,if they say they don't want to
have this conversation today, itmight look like they're scary.

(27:22):
But so what?
You're keeping you in mind.
Forget the other party.
You know you're hot.
You You have the self-awarenessto understand you're hot.
You're not in a space right nowwhere you can hear anyone.
By you providing you the spacethat you probably was never

(27:42):
afforded in the past, you didsomething wrong, probably the
adults in your life wanted totalk about it right then and
there, you're the adult now.
You get to control what youspeak, how you speak, and how
you maneuver certainpredicaments.
for you to you and your brainyou're saying it looks like
you're scary to me i'm saying ohthis person cares about our

(28:04):
relationship they don't want tosay anything out of anger and
they want to wait until they'recooled down um so that's
hopefully i i've explained why icreated community act i created
community act to shift the waynot only we handle conflict but
also the way we communicate witheach other

SPEAKER_02 (28:26):
Absolutely.
No, you explained that reallywell.
And I think that we need to havemore conversations, especially
within the Black community,about this expectation that
folks have around Black femmesand thems showing up for other

(28:48):
people.
They expect us to stand up foreveryone else, but they do not
they get quite upset when westand up for ourselves when we
set boundaries that like relateto ourselves then there's a
problem then we're seen as likethe um like angry black woman or

(29:08):
we have an attitude or we're notbeing um cooperative and i i
like currently in this momenti'm quite pissed about it and
vocal about it um But I thinkthat speaks to, again, like how
we show up in conflict.
Absolutely.

(29:31):
Yeah, so thank you for sharing,like, more about your work.
And I actually have, like, mynext question is based on, like,
when people ask what I do and Itell them I do conflict care
work, either people's, like,eyes glaze over and they seem,
like, hesitant to ask morequestions or they're really

(29:53):
curious and they, like, youknow, like...
hint to me or like tell me onthe side that they're
experiencing conflict at work orin other places and they they
don't know how to handle it soI'm I'm curious like how do you
share this work on theday-to-day with like people who

(30:15):
might not understand like whatit is

SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
so I'll be very honest with you now I don't
think I'm doing a great job asin like marketing I you know
these level 70 things so I yeahI will say I'm not doing the
best job when it comes tospreading the message.
to folks who are outside of mycommunity or who hear about me

(30:39):
from mouth to mouth.
I think, because again, a lot ofour community doesn't know that
this work exists and it can beprovided.
The things that I could bedoing, for example, like we've
had like legacy, we have legacyfucks coming up and it's to
commemorate, I believe, the workof the folks on Black Wall
Street who were violently killedand violently erased from the

(31:03):
Tulsa massacre.
We just had Mayfest.
And we have all these festivalsright now, especially in this,
I'm in Tulsa, Oklahoma, so wehave so many festivals.
And truthfully, what I should bedoing is getting a booth,
sitting my butt down andexplaining to people what is
Community Act, what we do.
I think that for me, what i iknow i should be doing um and

(31:26):
what i hope to be doing more inin the future but because i am a
lawyer people do come to me andthey like tell me their problems
and i they they never expect theangle that i come out of what
they like you know what can i doshould i take it to court i'm
like no you can have aconversation and that's where

(31:46):
like When it comes to conflictwork, I always start with the
communication because a lot ofthe conflict that I hear, it's
just if someone would have saidsomething, even if it was in a
text, even if you were tooscared to say it in person, even
if it was in an email, ifsomeone would have said
something I don't think he wouldhave been here.

(32:09):
But a lot of, because a lot ofthe communication, a lot of,
excuse me, the conflict that Ihear, and I think it kind of has
to us being black folks andbeing scared to even initiate
the conflict.
So if we go from zero to ahundred real quick, and I'm
like, girl, there was 10, therewas 20, there was 30 before this

(32:31):
conflict got to a hundred.
So I, you know i do when folksdo come to me for work like this
hey i need this help i'm likewell did you try sending your
landlord a letter basicallystating everything that's going
on no but then you want to go tocourt she doesn't even have any
notice of anything that you'resaying and even if she does she

(32:53):
can literally say that you'relying so why don't we document
by creating a letter for yourfor your landlord let's stop
there let's just stop there witha communication child let's stop
there um so that's usually how inavigate people towards my work
but like i said there's more ishould be doing to be informing

(33:14):
the community about the benefitsof conflict work like what your
community works that you'redoing and also community
mediation and how beneficial canbe not for only this current
problem but to help you preventfuture problems.
Like now you know how tonavigate in the angle to go

(33:34):
towards this issue.

SPEAKER_02 (33:37):
Yeah, honestly, I think that's like the fact that
you don't market a lot, butfolks are still finding you
through the other work you do orlike that they know that you're
a lawyer, I think speaks to thefact that- Sometimes we don't
need to market this work per se,but just having day-to-day
conversations that invites it inis where it's at.

(33:59):
Because honestly, the folks thathave come to me to do conflict
care work, it's been throughword of mouth.
It hasn't been because theylooked me up on the Googles.

SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (34:12):
Or anything like that.
So I think that there'ssomething...
to be said for that and also ijust want to uplift something
because yes it's important to behaving um to like build up our
skills for handling conflict butyou also mentioned something
around like having documentationoh i have like y'all document

(34:38):
your shit like Have documentsbecause at the end of the day,
especially if you are BIPOC, ifyou are queer, trans, intersex,
like folks out here whiling.
So have your documentationbecause if it does get to that
point where you need to likeprotect yourself legally, even

(34:58):
though the legal system doesn'tsee it for us, like at least you
have documentation.
Please document everything.

SPEAKER_01 (35:06):
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (35:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (35:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (35:08):
I think like out of my, my practice recent, like my,
let's say last two, three, twoyears of being in this practice,
I will say that I think I have avery optimistic, more, you know,
sunflower view of people.
And I, and let's blame that onmy, my Leo stellium in my first

(35:29):
house.
I do think it kind of cloudslike how I see, like in my, my,
my head, like, we can all reallylearn how to live in community.
Oh, absolutely.
Nothing is beyond resolution orresolve in my head.
I have to ground myself inunderstanding that that's not
the reality.

(35:49):
And even in my life, that's justnot the reality for a lot of
people right now in this moment.
So this is where...
know the the lawyer in me comesin yes just have documentations
even though we want to we wantto really believe that the
person the party on the otherside does want this to resolve

(36:09):
wants to be just want to be fairwant to live in community i
understand that's not howeveryone unfortunately operates
not with the same intention thatyou do so yeah have your
documents so when you have topull out the receipts and be
like wait what I said this thisday, or, and what I mean by I

(36:30):
said this this day, yes,document everything, but also if
you are having like a If you arehaving a in-person communication
about a certain conflict ortopic, I always tell people,
again, this is another tip, tomemorialize it in some type of
writing.
And this is how it would looklike.
Let's say if me and Goddess hada conversation.

(36:51):
We were roommates.
We had a conversation abouttaking out the trash.
Hey, Goddess, I want to thankyou so much.
And this is how you kill it withKaya.
I'm thinking about people whowould be like, hey, they don't
understand me.
I know what I'm doing, boo-boo,okay?
I know what I'm doing.
Some people, like, sometimesthey don't understand, like, how
I can be so, like, like, just,like, loose with certain things.

(37:12):
And I'm not.
I'm truly not.
I'm just giving the person thebenefit of the doubt.
I don't know what I'm doing.
So this is a text that I wouldsend.
Like, and I don't know what Isaid.
I hate using the people, theperson I'm talking to.
You can use me.
I volunteer.
Okay.
All right.
So goddess and I are, goddessand I are, roommates and we had
a conflict about a problem withwho's taking out the trash.

(37:35):
Thank you so much for speakingwith me.
I really appreciate yourwillingness to come up with a
solution.
Um, I just want, so as wediscussed earlier, I will be
taking out the trash this day.
You'll be taking the trash thisday.
I'm just so happy we were ableto move the resolution.
Now let's say something happenson the line where you have to
move out and then I sue you forlike early cancellation and we

(37:59):
go to court and we say like, wecouldn't just live together in
peace.
It was just like garbageeverywhere, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
i could show that we came upwith a solution we came up with
a resolution we tried to work itout i didn't just like or you
didn't just i forgot who was whobut you didn't none of us just
got up and left the apartmentand abandoned the lease however
because it was ongoing problemsthis problem has not resolved

(38:22):
itself even after we tried totalk about it even after we came
up with a plan now i'm leavingso now you you you are kind of
saved and that's like i saidcourt scratch that even if you
came to mediation if you camebefore me what work did you guys
do before here like what whatwhat work i see it ask the party

(38:43):
what what problems or whatrestraints did you have with
this solution like why wasn't itwasn't you able to follow up
through on it and Generallyconversations are usually like
when you get back down to thenitty-gritty nitty-gritty about
certain conversations you'llfind out that someone is really
depressed and it's reallyInteracting impacting their
daily functions and that canlead to us breaking the lease

(39:07):
But with less animosity and morecompassion like okay.
Yes, this is not gonna work Iforgot who was who in this
situation, but one of us isclearly going through something
where the trash is we're unableto resolve all this trash
situation there's trasheverywhere I cannot live like
this but now I'm not angry withyou I understand so if I see you

(39:30):
in the street I'm gonna say heygirl

SPEAKER_02 (39:32):
yeah exactly and I think that like the sunflower
tint or like I like that isimportant to have like I have
hope that we can all come to aplace of resolving conflict
without the legal system andhonestly like documenting things

(39:52):
isn't just about like in case itdoes get to the core or in case
it does get to mediation.
It also helps us track what wewere saying.
Like you, like, like I needsomething, like I'm ADHD.
So I like, I need something tocome back to, to make sure that
like, when I'm feeling a certainkind of way, when I'm feeling
hurt or disrespected, that I cancome back to this and be like,

(40:15):
well, what did we agree on?
And have those things beenhappening?
So that I can also come with alot of love and compassion when
I do need to bring things upwith folks.
So I like, yes, the example wason point.
I appreciated that example.
Okay, I'm going to try to fitthis in.

UNKNOWN (40:35):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (40:36):
So do

SPEAKER_03 (40:45):
you

SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
find that you have to distinguish harm from
conflict when you do mediation?
And like, do those everintersect?
I love the look on your faceright now.

SPEAKER_01 (41:10):
I say that to say that doesn't mean I have the
correct answer to that, but Ihave had couples or ex-couples
come before me where there'sclearly violence in the

(41:31):
situation.
And I don't think that I haveenough experience handling said
type of conflict.
It's harm.
It's violence.
It's physical.
I don't want to say some harmsare less or more important or

(41:52):
serious than the other, but Ihaven't had a case, I would say,
that has come before me whereknow like yeah there was
manipulation and lying which isalso harm um but one of the
solutions was to talk about theways that this action manifests
in manipulation and in harm howthe person who's being targeted

(42:12):
or on the end of receiving thisharm can spot it and can and can
take appropriate actions to justnot be in this you know facility
anymore you say you still wantto be in a relationship or
community with this person nowbut i also you know it's
important that we talk about howthese things even though they're
not physical it's still harmlike you're like as a mediator I

(42:37):
give my insight, but I don'tsay, I'm saying that because
you're talking on this podcast,but I don't want to, I don't say
like, oh girl, he's manipulatingyou.
He's a liar.
He's this and that.
But I'm saying like, you know,you know, in terms of, going
through the facts and what hashappened and giving my insight
and asking questions, I try tolike lead them to understand

(43:00):
that this is actually violenceand this is, you know, you're
saying that it's okay because noone has hit you, but actually
this is not that, like this isstill violent, like this is
still harmful and this is stillgoing to impact the other
people, the other members inyour community.
in your home and for me insituations like that it's
important that i let you see itfor yourself i i won't i i'm not

(43:23):
going i'm not a therapist andalso i know that people don't
necessarily like to be told theyneed to be shown like i'm trying

SPEAKER_03 (43:32):
to

SPEAKER_01 (43:33):
show you how this is impacting you in ways that you
probably are not seeing it nowBut it's going to come out
sooner or later.
And I know it is impacting theother members in the house.
So stuff like that, I thinkthat, well, cases like that, I
think I am able to navigate.
I struggle when the harm isphysical.
And when it comes to communitymediation, I do not try.

(43:58):
And again, this is how it'sdifferent from like 9 to 5
mediation.
I'm not going to remove thehumanity out of this situation.
I know folks don't want us totalk about the humanity.
They don't want us to talk aboutemotions and feelings.
No, because we are people and weoperate with emotions, with

(44:21):
feelings, with feelings.
with that.
So I'm not going to remove it.
I understand why white supremacytells us, because it's easier
for you to continue harming usif I take out the emotions.
Like when people say things tothe effect, and I know I'm going
a little off, but when peoplesay things like, you know, you
don't have to act with emotions.
Fuck you.
Yes.
Like, what do you mean?
You literally just harm me andyou're telling me, what do they

(44:44):
say?
I haven't heard it in a whilebecause I've totally removed
myself.
If anyone has ever harmed me andthen they say, well, you didn't
have to react like that.
Totally.

SPEAKER_02 (44:53):
Phone checking.

SPEAKER_01 (44:55):
Yeah.
Or like, you know, you're toosensitive.
Yes, I'm sensitive.
I'm a cancer.
Hell yeah.
You know?
And you telling me not to actwith emotions, it's to protect
you, not to allow me to releasemyself of the harm that has been
done to me.
So anyways, going back to theoriginal question, I do struggle

(45:16):
when it comes to physical harmand violence.
And I've had cases where I...
have said that i'm not equippedto handle this i'm just not um i
think i would need more and i'mlike and again the work that
we're doing is like where do yougo for training i don't know um

(45:38):
where do you go for someone totell you this and i have however
even i said i'm not able tomediate this between you two, I
do want to speak with you.
And then I would take the personwho I feel like is being harmed,
and I would talk with them andgive them the actions or trying

(45:59):
to persuade them to take certaincertain steps certain actions so
that's a good point because yeahwhen it comes to physical harm
i'm pretty sure it was like agirlfriend child but a lot of
them yeah we can we can talkabout that that's fine growing
up as a kid let me say somethingwhen i tell you how this
practice has come fromexperience experience as a child
i was always like not i don'tsay always like i said my my

(46:23):
behavioral folder was sick okaylike it was Because I didn't
know how to communicate.
I didn't know.
I was mimicking what I saw withthe adults around me.
When they felt wronged or theyfelt like I did something wrong,
they hit me.
So I felt like it wasappropriate to, you know.
But it's been, you know, it'sbeen like maybe 10, 12 years.

(46:46):
Well, I'm going to say 10 yearssince I've gotten into a fight.
And when I say that in talks andconversations, people laugh.
And I'm like, for me, you don'tknow how big of a deal that is.
Because I'm so used to...
You said what?
And now she's like, oh, and Iknow I'm switching gears.
I'm switching gears.
Let me just end it with

SPEAKER_03 (47:04):
this.
No, no, no, no.
Keep going.

SPEAKER_01 (47:06):
But I remember the epiphany that I had.
The epiphany I had was, youknow, I was complaining about
the violence in my community inNew York and just saying like, I
hate living here, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
And I was reading something andI think it was from Bell Hooks I
was reading.
And it made me think about likehow oh wow, when I hit people,
I'm also contributing to theviolence.

(47:27):
Yeah, I'm not using

SPEAKER_03 (47:28):
guns.

SPEAKER_01 (47:29):
Yeah, I'm not like trying to kill anyone.
I'm just trying to make a point.
and how that also contributes tothe violence and the safety that
people feel in this community.
So that was an eye opener, howeven though I don't see myself
as like a murderer or a burglaror a robber, I'm still
contributing, even if it's on amicro level, to the level of

(47:51):
safety that people feel in thiscommunity.
And that's when I was like,okay, you know, no more
fighting, walk away.
walk away, handle it anotherday, send in, if you can't, if
you're still, if I'm still hotin that moment, send a text
instead of, you know, speakingface to face, have someone
proofread it.
There's all these techniquesthat we can use to resolve

(48:12):
conflict.
So not all harm.
I think like if it comes tofriends, I have a lot of insight
and I haven't, I do.
Like I'm talking from experienceas a person who used to fight,
who no longer fights.
I get it.
I get not liking to bedisrespected.
I get not liking to be bullied.
I get people, you know, seeingyou one way, but not knowing you

(48:33):
got hands.
Like, yeah, I laugh a lot, but Ialso know how to move my hands
fast.
Like, what do you, like, what doyou know?
I get, I get being on the sideof, and people think that, you
know, victims of bullying look acertain type of way.
And it's like, no, it's like, Iget it.
And I can give insight of, topeople on a different, on a
different end of the spectrum

SPEAKER_03 (48:56):
who

SPEAKER_01 (48:56):
have, use physical violence to either defend
themselves or make a point orlet people know that they're not
to be picked with i get it get

SPEAKER_03 (49:05):
it

SPEAKER_01 (49:06):
so that type of harm i i can navigate i can give
insight on i can provide tips onlike what to do but i think when
it comes to domestic harm i'm alittle like I can't, I can't
meet this, but can we talk?
And can I have a session withyou?

(49:27):
And I can tell you like what Ifeel you should do.

SPEAKER_02 (49:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Intimate partner violence issomething that I've been leaning
more and more into over the lastcouple of years.
And it still feel like, There'sjust still so much that we just
don't know.
It's like in the moment, we gotto figure out like in the

(49:54):
moment.
But I want to go back to whatyou were saying around like, how
does my way of defending myselfor like course correcting in a
way, like how does that alsolike reverberate out into like
community safety overall andlike the sense of community

(50:16):
safety.
And I think that that is soimportant for us to ask of like
how it, like you might be valid,like that person may need to
have been laid out, but like howis it contributing to community
safety overall is a questionthat I will be asking myself
more often.

(50:38):
And I think for me, conflict andharm play off of each other.
I think that when we're inconflict, because of how we're
handling it, we can cause moreharm.
And I think for me, harm has todo with plays on power.
If you are trying to wield powerover another person or

(51:00):
situation, there's probably someharm happening there.
But I don't think they'recompletely, conflict and harm
are completely separate fromeach other.
And at least in my experience,It's not black and white.
And there's going to be both ina situation.

(51:22):
There's going to be both in asituation.
And sometimes, like we talkedabout before, you can see
something as conflict whenanother person will see that as
harm.
And that could be about the wayin which we're thinking about
what's normal and what wedeserve.

SPEAKER_01 (51:41):
Can you give an example for that?
Because that was deep.
And I'm like, I kind of want tohear it.

SPEAKER_02 (51:46):
I'm thinking of...
I'm trying to, like, make surethat this is not, like, super
specific to any...
Okay.
I think that maybe this applies.
So you were talking about,like...

(52:10):
getting physically punished aslike a child.
And I think that that'ssomething that we in the Black
community grapple with a lot.
And if you were spanked as achild, it might have been talked
about in more of like a conflictway in that like this is a way

(52:34):
for me like to express to you aboundary or to like teach you
like what is acceptable and thatcould kind of be in like the
realm of like conflict you knowlike I'm having trouble with my
kid like we're not getting alongI have to like spank them you
know and they keep running awayor something like that that kind
of gets like put into theconflict bucket But like when

(52:58):
you look at the history of wherespanking came from and its roots
to slavery and power overpeople, I'm going to put that in
the harm bucket.
That is harm.
And this is actually somethingthat comes up for me in some of

(53:18):
the work I do around conflictcare is like folks are seeing it
as like, this is a way ofresolving a situation or
bringing order to a situation byhitting someone.
And I'm like, is it though?

(53:38):
Are you bringing order?
Or are you trying to gain powerthrough physical pain?
So I think that's one of theways.
I feel like there were otherexamples I could give, but that
was the first one that kind ofcame to mind.

SPEAKER_01 (53:55):
And no, that's spot on.
And I totally, totally agree.
I guess what I'm thinking now,my mind was going two places.
But yes, I absolutely agree.
And I remember reading somethingagain, what came with the whole
hitting, right?
And physical harm.
Oh, spanking, right?
Yeah, it did derive fromenslavement.

(54:18):
Like, where do you think peoplein Nigeria were not just hitting
each other that's not how theyresolved conflict pre-slavery
they had guidelines they hadcouncils they had uh meetings to
talk about how someone was goingto be like punished people
weren't just taking belts andlike be and beating each other

(54:39):
with it or beating, like, kidchildren with it when they did
something wrong.
And I remember, like, I had togive my dad specifically grace.
This was at the point where Iwas, like, understanding.
I think I was reading somethingby Raelle Huggs.
Raelle Huggs, I'm telling you,she just changed my life.
Raelle Huggs.
She just changed the way I sawthings.

(55:01):
I remember in a book I wasreading, I don't know if it was
all about...
not all about love or the womanfeminism i can't remember which
book it was but she said how shegave an example or just like a
narrative about how our parents,you know, they would go out in
the white world, work for a bosswho didn't respect them, you

(55:21):
know, people on top of them,someone who's looking down to
them.
And you could feel the weight ofthe power that their superiors,
even their white co-workers hadover them.
Like they looked down on them.
And that's when people say, youknow, what's the thing we have
to do with this?
I'm like, are you out of yourmind?
Do you think like our peoplewould just inherently like

(55:41):
finally They're not.
They learn white people's ways.
And I shouldn't say maybe whitepeople.
Maybe I should take that backand say white supremacist ways.
They learn white supremacy ways,okay?
So our parents went out in theworld, didn't feel like they
felt the...
a degree of power structure orthe lack of between them and

(56:03):
their coworkers and boss.
And when they came home to feelthat power, who are they going
to feel it?
Who are they going to be able tofeel that power from?
The kids in the house, the womanin the house, it gave them a
sense of feeling of them feelinglike they were powerful that
they meant something even thoughit was very interrupted it was

(56:24):
very wrong like it was misguidedif you want to feel power focus
it on yourself that's what ihave a top a top point of my
recovery is what i am feelinguncontrollable when i'm feeling
like i don't matter or i don'tum have any like will in this

(56:45):
world like like nothing i'mdoing is is making a difference
yeah it can be easy i used to dothis all the time tell myself
amira go clean your room do thatdo that why am i even why am i
focusing on them i'm focusingthem to put this lack that i'm
feeling on something to extractit out of something and it's
usually to give orders once iread that between from bell hugs

(57:10):
i literally apply that to likemy my parents, specifically my
father.
And then I had to realize how Ido that in my relationships.
How when there's something, I'mfeeling a lack of something
inside, how I try to rid thatlack by telling other people
what to do, by bossing otherpeople around.
Why don't I focus on myself?

(57:30):
There's a lot of things I can bedoing, focusing, turning inward
that thing to myself.
So when you talked about likeharm and conflict, I totally
agree.
totally totally agree and a lotof conflict i do feel like can
be resolved without harm i feellike we just have to know we

(57:53):
have to one understand ourattention what is the intention
of of of what was my intentionin resolving this harm or
navigating towards it is this ifit's for you to feel better i
would say just take a step backBut if it's to actually
understand each other andnavigate this conflict, then
yes, I do feel like it can bedone.

(58:17):
without at least physical harmand hopefully like mental
emotional, less mental emotionalharm, you can navigate it in
ways where you're making, you'renot letting the other side or
the other party feel like theydon't matter or that you are
superior to them in one way oranother.

(58:39):
And the last thing I do want tosay about that particularly is I
realized that for me, the wholeless fighting thing became
easier once I realized that thepeople I was around and the
people who I was actuallyfighting You know, we weren't
meant to be in communityanyways.
But I think, like, growing up,you feel like you have to

(59:01):
constantly be in community withcertain people.
And I always tell people, if youare constantly fighting with
someone, because that's who thefights were with.
They weren't, like, with, like,randoms.
I hardly ever had fights with arandom person.
Don't get me wrong.
If you're in a park and a racistis talking smack, I'm not going
to tell you to smack them onthis podcast.
But, girl, you know what I mean?
Do what you got

SPEAKER_03 (59:22):
to do in that moment.
Let me

SPEAKER_01 (59:25):
play.
Think

SPEAKER_03 (59:26):
about what might

SPEAKER_01 (59:27):
happen, but act yourself.
Yeah.
Let's be very real.
I ain't talking about them.
You do, you do, you do.
I'm talking about yourneighbors, your cousins, people
who you are in community with.

SPEAKER_03 (59:40):
If

SPEAKER_01 (59:42):
y'all are having multiple fights all the time,
maybe y'all either go, come tome, let's work this out.
But even if mediation, that weleap to the conclusion that
y'all are just not compatible,you do not need to be in
community with each other, thenthat's what it is.
And it's okay.
A lot of our relationships,especially growing up, have been
built on proximity.

(01:00:03):
And that itself causes a lot ofconflict.
Because when we're growing intotwo different people, however,
we keep on feeling like we gottaalways come back.
Because it's like, we'recousins, we're cousins.
That doesn't work.
Sometimes if you want peace, youhave to understand that you are
my cousin and I do love you, butthis is not going to work

(01:00:27):
because we're operating on twodifferent value systems.
And there's always a physicalfight at the end of every time
we get together.
Therefore, I have to be an adultand just pull myself away.
And once I started to realizethat, oh, I don't have to
actually be near this person,was really no need to fight

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:49):
yeah absolutely absolutely i think that leads
into like right relationship andlike right relationship is about
gauging what is comfortable andhealthy like what's a
comfortable and healthyrelationship dynamic to another
person and like there's somefolks that like maybe my right
relationship isn't Like withthem isn't them coming over to a

(01:01:13):
gathering I'm having, but it islike we're in the same like
organizing circle, but we'redoing different projects within
that circle.
Maybe my right relationship withanother person is them being a
deep and intimate friend.
Like it's okay to have differentkinds of relationship dynamics
with folks and setting that likebased off of how that person,

(01:01:37):
like how you feel around thatperson and how you feel you're
being treated by that person,that is okay.
You do not have to be friendswith everyone.
The relief I felt when I waslistening to a speech, and I

(01:01:58):
cannot remember the name of thephilosopher.
It'll come to me.
And he was like, you don't haveto like everyone.
That in itself is not okay.
That is a lie.
Why are you lying?
And I was like, You mean I don'thave to pretend to like such and
such?
I was like, oh, that makes me,and I can show more love for

(01:02:18):
them now that I can admit.
No, you ain't my cup of tea.
But I know you're other people'scup of tea.
So you can go over here.
I'll go on over here.
And we'll just, yeah.
I think that that's okay.
I truly do.
Because you definitely have apoint there.
Okay.

(01:02:38):
There was so much more I wantedto say about what you said, but
let me just

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:41):
go to the next question.
Can I say one thing?
Are you on a timeline?

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:47):
No, no, no, no, no.
You go, you go.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:51):
Yeah, and I feel like when you're changing your
ways, when you're like, becausethis is the thing, I don't think
everyone, like if it wasn't formy addiction, I don't know how
else I would have beenacquaintance or like introduced
to Bell Hooks works.
And I say that today because,you know, I went to school, I
read the institutions that i'm apart of they're not going to
introduce me to bell hooks itwas that when i was such an

(01:03:13):
adult place and trying tounderstand like what you know i
i created this group where wetalked about our addiction and
then someone in the groupbrought up bell hugs and that's
when we started reading herfirst book um um so uh black
women and self recovery sistersof the year black women and self
recovery so that's the firstbell hooks book i ever read And

(01:03:35):
I remember reading things, and Ijust felt so much grace to
myself.
And I wanted to extend that topeople in my family.
I'm like, maybe they don't knowthat this is what we're
operating under.
Maybe they don't understand thatwhen we mistreat each other,
we're doing it to...
to balance out this powerdynamic or to create a power

(01:03:57):
dynamic not even balance it outit's really to create it and how
like this is just a non-endingcycle how everyone is always
fighting each other sometimesthis one person is like um the
villain sometimes this personplays the role as a hero when it
comes to this child and it'sjust like all these you know
dynamics that we're playing toeach other it's really
structured and it's actuallybatshit crazy and in my head I'm

(01:04:21):
thinking maybe they don't knowabout this.
Like, but now that like, youknow, I want them to know, to
know that this is what it is,you know?
I remember, you know, tellingpeople, my family about this and
me operating a different way.
Me, you know, hey tell yourcousin to do this i'm like no
i'm not going to tell them to dothis because you know i don't

(01:04:43):
have any business telling themand they need to fix if they
want to do it if they ask me formy advice i will but because
again i've already been on sucha the opposite or such a far
right right side of the spectrumof like this power dynamic that
i didn't know i was playing intonow i kind of just need to chill
out i don't want to tell anyoneanything like i want to just

(01:05:04):
heal myself and figure out andnavigate this new way of living
so i remember like like tellingagain family members about this
thing none of them wereinterested not none of them were
interested and it it hit me ohthat some of them they want this
power dynamic it's again it'sthe only way that they feel that
they can feel powerful or havethem important and once i

(01:05:27):
realized that they weren'tinterested in anything I was
trying to show them.
Hey, read this book.
Oh, hey, look at what thisperson.
Doesn't this make sense to allthe stuff that we've been going
through?
Once I realized, oh, they don'twant to change this, I was like,
oh, bye.
Bye.
Because there is more to me thanfighting all the time.

(01:05:50):
There is more to me than havingarguments all the time which i
felt like was always happeningin our like the larger family
context someone was alwaysfighting someone and it made no
sense and here i am thinkingthis is going to change
everything but oh y'all like tofight each other you y'all want
to be in conflict not me um so isay that to say that there are

(01:06:14):
might and probably will likelybe times where you recognize a
fault, you recognize an issue,you take accountability, and
you, again, think that maybe ifyou explain to people that this
is what we've been doing andthis is how we can stop this,
sometimes your findings are notgoing to matter to the person

(01:06:35):
you're explaining them to.
And that is going to create aspace where it says, oh, I do
love you, but you're not for me.
Again, I want to put some, afteryour share, I want to put some
context to what I was saying.
I'm operating on differentvalues now.
And if you cannot operate onthose values, or you're
operating on the old values thatmade us constantly fighting and

(01:06:58):
on with each other, I have nochoice but to leave.
I would be crazy.
And now I would be in asituation where I'm defenseless,
because now I know I don't wantto fight.
Now I know I don't want toreally put my hands on anyone.
but you don't have that samethat same reservation so now i'm
exposed to your harm to yourmental harm your emotional harm

(01:07:20):
and your physical harm now i gotto go so again that's what i was
saying like when you removeyourself from certain people who
you know who you really feellike a lot of your arguments and
conflict and fights it reallydissipates because once they're

(01:07:40):
They're gone.
And now you're operating withpeople who share your values.
You're realizing, oh, there'snot a lot to fight on.
There's nothing to fight orargue about.
Oh, I can't.
You know, I've had people cometo me and be like, Katie, I have
been their most safestrelationship.
I had like one person tell me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:57):
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:57):
had one person tell me that maybe a year ago.
And it made me feel so good.
good because it made me feel itmade me realize that she feels
safe she knows that she tells mebecause that's what basically
she wanted to tell me somethingshe didn't know how i was going
to react she didn't know if iwas not going to be her friend
anymore and it wasn't evensomething like extremely dynamic
where i'd be like i don't wantto be your friend i'm just like

(01:08:17):
oh okay i'm gonna take note ofthat i apologize and i'm not
gonna do that next time i'm notgonna do that next time i'm
gonna take note of it and shejust broke down and started
crying and i was like why areyou crying and she was just like
because i thought we were gonnahave an argument like blah blah
blah and i was just like no nono i i didn't know i was doing
that but i i acknowledge whatyou're saying and i am going to

(01:08:43):
be more conscious of me doingthe thing that you're telling me
i'm doing Even if I didn't atthat point think I was doing it,
I have to admit, I wasn't reallytaking note of it.
I wasn't really paying attentionif I was doing it.
Now I am going to pay attention.
I'm going to, you know, see,like be more conscious of my
actions.
So that was a long ramble, but Ijust did want to, I did want to

(01:09:03):
put that out there.
I did.
Okay.
I put that out there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:06):
Ooh.

UNKNOWN (01:09:07):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:07):
I think that what you said speaks to this next
question.
So if you have more to expoundon, dope.
If you don't, it's okay.
But what is something you arelearning about your own life
when it comes to conflict as youdo this work?

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:29):
I'll say this.
Because I have that, I think I,it's because I have that, like,
I have, like, Jupiter, Venus,rising, Mercury, Mars, all in
Leo, my first house.
I can be so willing to be like,oh, it's okay.
Oh, I'm doing that.
I apologize.
And I'm just being moreconfident.
Like, I'm always willing to,like, what's the word?

(01:09:50):
Just to, like, I don't want tosay wave the right flag, but I
think I'm, I have, for the mostpart, always just been, like,
willing to, like,

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:01):
meet people where they're

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:02):
at kind of people where they are apologize even if
i don't feel like i'm doinganything wrong it's just like
okay i can just apologize andjust not do it again like it's
not a big deal but i think thatas i am working with other
people and working with themmediate their conflict i'm
realizing that i can havestandards and just standards,

(01:10:23):
honestly, and how I want to, andwho I want to interact, even
when they're not causing me,like you said, you know, you
don't have to like everyone.
And I'm realizing that like, youknow, oh, I can actually, let me
come up with an example.
I'm just realizing that I couldhave standards.
It's so basic to be like, Icould just say no, or I could be

(01:10:44):
like, oh, I don't like thisperson.
Or I can be like, you know, thisperson, not my cup of tea.
And it be that.
It's not actual conflict.
It's just me acknowledging thatthis is not for me.
This opportunity is not for me.
Or I simply, and I always haveto reason myself, I simply just
don't want to do this.

(01:11:05):
I don't want to do this.
No.
So I'm realizing now howsometimes disingenuous I am to
myself because in my headinitially it feels like yes it
feels like great it feels likeyou're an amazing person let's
be best friends and then aftertime like the after time like

(01:11:28):
after time has sunk in and I'mthinking like why does my body
feel so conflicted it's becauseI just I didn't I didn't I
didn't take a moment to sit downand really think, yes,
everything on the face is alwaysgonna be sunflowers for me.
I have to sit down and reallythink out the nuance of the

(01:11:51):
seed.
I have to pick out the seeds inthe sunflower before I'm able to
truly create my opinion ordecision in something.
So that's something that I'mlearning in terms of like how I
handle conflict.
I don't always have to concedesomething.
I don't always have to be theperson to extend the olive

(01:12:13):
branch, especially if I'mfeeling my body.
I don't want to, or my body issaying no.
Like, you know what I mean?
Listen to the body.
I'm not saying this person isevil.
I'm not saying this person is,is like, but it's like, this
person is probably just not forme and that's fine.
Listen to the body.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:33):
This reminds me of something that I just kind of
figured out recently is like,when I don't like someone, but
I'm still trying to be incommunity, like in relationship
with them, like directrelationship with them, I will
nitpick all the things and allthe interactions that I did not

(01:12:53):
like with that person.
And like, it kind of createsthis like monster in my head of
this person.
And it's like, yeah, Like youcan just be like, I don't like
this person.
Like I don't feel good when I'maround them and that doesn't
make them a monster.
It just means I don't like them.
And so I can give myselfpermission not to come up with

(01:13:14):
reasons, more reasons not tolike them and create an enemy
out of someone that doesn't needto be an enemy.
That can just be someone that Idon't like.
Cause now I'm making it bigger,you know?
Like I'm making like a mountainout of Moho when I'm just like,
I don't actually like you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:31):
yes yes yes if you say the thing can i say can i
share one story actually no goup yes because i'm i'm big like
i i i don't know what i i'mgonna blame it on my stellium so
i'm big in like the mental i'mthinking all my communities
right for the most part i am andthen i have super black girls
club which has just expanded mycommunity to like you know even

(01:13:52):
have some black girls clubsisters in france and south
africa so great you know likegreat but i think it's also it's
okay to be on it i remember likei met i remember a couple years
ago i met this person who theyhad been following me my sbgc so
this is when i was like on thered table talk this was when i

(01:14:13):
was doing like a lot of tv showsabout this club about my own
journey and yeah like i get itright i remember hanging out
with this person and i feel likeevery time we hung out like she
just had something to like sayto me like Katie you did this
you did that and oh this isactually connected to that
person I was telling you over inthe beginning about

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:37):
okay

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:38):
10 minutes ago 11 12 minutes ago and it huh

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:42):
full circle

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:43):
yeah it intertwines and remember the first time she
said I just apologized she'slike crying like she you know
she did she felt like she she'snever had a relationship where
she could just tell someone I'mlike no like it's fine and I
feel like me saying that becausethe truth is it is fine if I do
something just tell me and Iapologize and I'm out make sure
to like be conscious that i'mnot doing it right to me that's

(01:15:04):
just a normal response ifsomeone that you're trying to
get to know or you like that's anormal response but baby girl if
we're hanging out all if we'reevery time we hang out you have
a problem with something i'mdoing At this point, we don't
need to be friends.
It's okay for you just to inyour head say, you do not like
me.
I think you think you have tolike me because you see me with

(01:15:25):
other people, but you trulydon't.
You don't have to like me.
You clearly, I hang out with alot of people.
They don't tell me, they don'tcome to me after I hang out and
tell me I'm doing somethingwrong.
And the fact that you're doingthis and you won't make the
decision for yourself, I think Ihave to tell you, I don't think
you like me, which is okay.

(01:15:45):
not you something about me itdoesn't vibe with you yeah it's
fine we just don't have to befriends we don't have to be
enemies but we don't have to befriends I just love how you said
that because I feel like moreespecially us as black women
especially I think also when wesee other black women and even
though there's a lot of liketrauma black women to black
women that I hear a lot in ourclubs and I respect I get it I

(01:16:07):
totally get it But I still don'tfeel like that should stop one
from being honest with theirfeelings and what they're
feeling, what their body istelling them.
It's okay.
You don't have to like everyone.
And me personally, I'm pleaselet me know you don't like me

(01:16:28):
because I'm a yapper.
I be talking so much.
I be just telling, like, I, youknow, I'm just a, I just be
like, but if I know that, okay,like, oh, wait, we're not on the
same page and I just be, youknow, just acquaintances.
Hey, bye.
So I think it's so honest.
Not only are you doing yourselfa favor by being honest with
yourself, but you're also doingthe other person, you know, by

(01:16:51):
letting them know where youstand so they won't feel like
manipulated or tricked into, youknow, Feeling that they can be
transparent and veritable withsomeone who doesn't feel the
same way.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:03):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think there's also...
Okay, so another thing I'mfiguring out is, like, I would
get resentful or upset whensomeone...
I didn't particularly like wasin their muchness and not
realizing that like they werenot my cup of tea, but everyone

(01:17:26):
else would like them.
And I'm just like, is it me?
Like I, your muchness is muchingin a way that like, I want to
run to the opposite end.
I'm like, I'm like, why?
Like, it was like, I was beingtriggered, like big T triggered.
And I was like, bro, what isthis?
And I think what I learned isthat I was resentful because

(01:17:52):
they were simply beingthemselves and I wasn't giving
myself full permission to bemyself.
So I'm learning how to givemyself full permission to be
myself, which I've been doingfor years, but I'm adding on the
addition of like not trying tocater or like gauge who I am

(01:18:15):
based off of making other peoplecomfortable in this very
particular kind of way.
And so for example, the conflictcare work we do, it has opened
my eyes up to a lot of thingsthat just are no longer my vibe.
No, I will not tolerate that ina relationship.

(01:18:38):
And so there are certain peoplethat I have lifelong friends.
I'm always going to love them.
We always going to be friends.
But we've had to re-decide howintimate we can be because I'm
just like, there are certainthings that I'm learning about
that you don't want to learnabout or are struggling with,

(01:19:01):
and that's fine.
But it does affect the qualityof a relationship because now
I'm putting all these tools intoour relationship and you are
not.
And now I'm mothering you in away or overtaking up too much of
the responsibility in this,which is not how those tools are
meant to be used.
So I will not be doing that.

(01:19:22):
And I'm also more careful withwho I...
Like you were saying, I might bereally excited about meeting
another person and be like, yes,surface level, we get along.
And then get a little bit intothe more inside relationship.
I was like, oh, we are operatingcompletely differently.
So I'm learning how to beunapologetic about that and like

(01:19:46):
leaving sooner rather than laterwhile also like, having
self-accountability on like howI'm viewing this person.
Because if I'm making a monsterout of someone that's just like
not my cup of tea and havingresentment for them, like
there's something within myselfthat is not being met that like
maybe I should just bring intothe space a bit more.

(01:20:07):
And that's not to say like it'smy fault.
It's like the situation, butlike I just, no mas.
No, I'm not doing it no

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:16):
more.
Yeah.
This is an episode on conflictresolution, but folks have to
understand, especially as Blackpeople, especially as Black
femmes, women, girls, especiallyas us, we have to understand
that sometimes there is noconflict.
You just don't like this person,but you're operating You're
operating in community, dailycommunity.

(01:20:37):
You have too many interactionswith this person that you do not
need to have that now there isconflict building.
Meanwhile, you could have justlistened to your body, yourself,
and stayed, I don't want to sayfar away, but living your
interactions with this person.
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:52):
completely agree.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:53):
So this has to be talked about.
We have to know how to listen toour body to understand what you
just talked us through.
We all need to be having theseconversations with ourselves and
probably daily because we're notgonna unlearn people pleasing.
And a lot of the tendencies wewere raised on, we're not gonna
unlearn them in like a year ortwo.
So it's okay to have theseconversations to assess.

(01:21:17):
And hopefully at the end of likethe assessment, you get to the
conclusion where you're not abad person for not liking
someone.
You're also not a bad person fornot understanding why other
people like this person or not.
You're just navigating andtrying to understand what is
going on, what is going on withyou, and what is going on with

(01:21:38):
the space that's around you.
And that is okay.
It's okay to assess.
As long as you're keeping itwithin yourself, and when I mean
within yourself, you're notbumping the person or creating
some harmful environment, thenthat's fine.
I, you know, we're not alwaysgonna have something.

(01:21:58):
And that's the thing I had tolearn in my, why I am working on
and learned in my practice thatit is actually, you know, it's
okay for me to not like thisperson and actually not even
really have a reason.
It's fine.
Like I don't like this person.
I don't really have a reason.
There's just something aboutthis person.
That's OK.
I can still be in community withthem.

(01:22:21):
And that's only different formany people.
Maybe we're part of the samewriter's group.
Maybe we co-work at the sameplace.
But I don't need to interactwith them.
And I don't need to be fakeabout it.
I don't need to be asking themabout their aspirations, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
At the same time, let me saythis.
The last thing I want to say,that just reminded me of
something.
At the same time, there has beentimes where, one, the forefront,

(01:22:43):
I have concluded, oh, I don'tlike this person.
And for whatever reason, maybe Ididn't have a reason, but as I
did get to speak with them, I'mlike, oh, okay, I was wrong.
Like I was, I was wrong.
I was wrong.
And it's okay to also, you knowfor it to go things to go that
way because it does if you'reopen enough if you're open
enough it can go that way aswell yes we're like oh i didn't

(01:23:06):
like this person but nowactually i do like that we have
more in common than i thoughtlike you know

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:13):
yeah to change your it's okay to change your mind
right it's okay to like trustyour instinct trust your gut and
it's also okay if that changesbecause we change as like people
i i think there's also somethinghere and like this is the last
point so we but i i think thatthere's something there around
we thought we had to likeeveryone or care for everyone in

(01:23:34):
our immediate and externalcommunities from a place of
survival as Black people.
We had to stick together indifferent kinds of ways.
We're not really coming out ofthat in terms of the state of
the world, but I think thatthere's more room now to address

(01:23:54):
the...
our relationships are morecomplex than that.
I think that there's somethingthere for sure.
But, hi!

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:05):
This was such a good conversation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:08):
Okay, can you tell us about some of the things that
you have coming up?
I know you have some, like,yeah, great things that you're
offering and currently offering,so I want to, like, uplift that
as we close out.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:23):
Yes.
First of all, I do want to saythank you.
This is This is like the firstpodcast that I have been on in
regards to community art, whichis different because I I do a
lot of like podcasts and andpresentations and shows based on
my sobriety recovery and soberblack girls club.
But this year I have decreasedmy number of appearances and

(01:24:46):
work with the club to really getmy practice mediation practice
going.
And so it's kind of like.
I know I kept bringing myrecovery in it because it's
hard.
This is what I've been talkingabout for the past four, five,
six, seven years.
And now it's like, oh, conflict.
It's a part of it, though.

(01:25:06):
So I'm glad you brought it in.
Yes.
Yeah.
So thank you for that.
And I hope that folks reallyreceived something from my
appearance on this podcast.
If the last thing I do want tojust let out, if you receive
anything, let it be this.
just to be open.
I think it's okay.
I don't say it's okay, but Iunderstand why people are
guarded when it comes torelationships and when it comes

(01:25:30):
to resolving conflict.
I understand why people dosometimes, you know, see
conflict as black and white andor be all, either you're my
enemy or you're not.
You know, what the Cardi B'ssay, if we have beef, we have
beef forever.
Trust me, girl, I get that.
I would say that up until likemaybe two, three years ago, we
got beef forever.

(01:25:51):
Like, That

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:54):
takes me to that drumline quote of like, got
beef, you gotta grill it up andeat it.
And I'm just like,

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:00):
let me stop, let me

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:05):
die.
Anyway, sorry,

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:06):
continue.
No, you're fine.
I get it.
But if you can work, and there'snot a specific time limit, time
span, it's not how muchpercentage you should work, but
if you can just work at beingmore open, in your
relationships, in yourconflicts.
If you could work out takingactionable steps like AKA

(01:26:27):
reaching out to me formediation, I believe that our
relationships and our lives willimprove.
They will be easier.
And I don't know how many folkswho are listening are Astro
people.
I'm an Astro girlie, okay?
I'm an Astro.
I can tell you my mood, myrising, everything, houses,
transit, we got it.

(01:26:48):
We are getting into an age wherePluto is in Aquarius, and I feel
like the pandemic was already agateway to folks feeling
isolated, to folks then feelingsecluded and confined in Pluto.
in a space, right?
And depending on where Pluto is,but anyway, that doesn't even

(01:27:09):
really matter because Pluto islike a generational or it's a,
it's a community planet.
It's not necessarily anindividualistic planet.
And now we're going into wherePluto, like what, when does it
seem to ask your podcast?
Well, let me just, it'simportant.
We're doing

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:28):
like podcast one, two, and three all in one.
Y'all welcome.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:33):
but now Pluto is in Aquarius uh which is about which
Aquarius is the sign oftechnology of a systems of um
yeah systems of way of doingthings and I say that to say
depending on where your chartwhere Pluto in Aquarius is in
your chart it'll make more senseif you knew that but generally I

(01:27:56):
am saying that we're coming intoan age where the way we are
commuting and the way we areaccepting how we need each other
is going through a death and arebirth is gonna come out.
Again, I feel like the pandemicand quarantine has made people

(01:28:16):
feel that it's okay to besecluded.
It's okay to be alone becausethey did it for two years.
And even now people dip in andout of being in touch with their
emotions and accepting that,okay, I kind of do feel lonely.
Oh, okay, I kind of have been bymyself for the past few years.
Oh, okay, we're getting into atime, we are in a time, excuse

(01:28:37):
me, where that is slowly goingto dissipate and folks are going
to have no choice but to acceptthat we do need each other we do
need community the old systemsin place are no like social
media doom scrolling that isslowly going to be making it as

(01:28:57):
we're already seeing what'stwitter now looking like
instagram is a mess they're allcrashes bugs 24 7 and I think
now is the perfect time to workon our communication skills, to
work on how we solve conflict,to hone in on the values that
not only do we want to see inour everyday life, but we want

(01:29:17):
to embody.
We want to embody.
Right now is the perfect time todo that.
So that had nothing to do withyour question, but I do want
folks, so if you leave withanything, just leave with that,
be open, be willing, be willing.
And I am pretty sure that theuniverse will put opportunities

(01:29:39):
and put people and situationsand experiences in your way
where you will be able toexperience the brillianess of
community, the safetiness ofcommunity, but you have to be
open.
You know, if you've had badexperiences in the past, be open
and the experiences that willshow you like, oh, okay, we do

(01:30:00):
need each other.
You know, we'll come and findyou.
In terms of my...
In terms of...
In terms of my...
Mediation Process Community Act.
Okay, so this is...
Okay, so I do have a...

(01:30:20):
I'm like, why did I not prepare?
So, I'm not too sure what I'mgoing to do.
God, I'm so...
Okay, I'm not too sure whatdiscount I'm going to give the
folks who are listening to onthe podcast, even though I know
God has told me to have it readyfor this podcast.
Please excuse me.
It's been a very...

(01:30:40):
It'll be a surprise! right now ibelieve right now because i do
do a lot of sliding scales forpeople who who do need my
services right now my my feesare not in my opinion too
astronomical um i believe at themoment they're 250 an hour and

(01:31:02):
that price is divided in betweenthe two participants generally i
do tell participants to book atleast two hours just so we can
get through the phases of the ihave four phases of my mediation
practice one does for the firstphase does consist of us sitting

(01:31:22):
down and understanding likedepending on the relationship i
don't do this for everyone butdepending on the relationship
what are our values?
Like, what do we value inwhatever some relationship is in
front of me?
And just having that chart upthere to guide us through this
mediation.
So I do say at least to book atwo-hour minimum.

(01:31:44):
And I think...
Maybe I will give like a$50 off,$50 off or something to the
effect.
I'll speak with God as much tosee like what's more impactful.
But either way, I do offersliding scale anyway.
So that's why I'm just like, Idon't even know.
You don't even have to.
Like, hey,

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:59):
Katie, what?

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:01):
yeah like it's

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:03):
on the website

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:04):
and

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:04):
like

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:04):
sliding scale is available yes a sliding scale is
available so just reach out ifthere's even if you're not ready
for mediation right now butyou're considering it and you
want to talk about like theactual the the situation or the
predicament you're in right nowwe can literally have a
one-on-one chat about it and wecan move from there um but yeah
i'm just so proud of anyone andeveryone who's listening to this

(01:32:26):
podcast i'm part of you goddessi'm part of myself because we're
doing the work it's so easy tojust shut down.
And, and, you know, like I did,I did for two years, just stay
in my apartment and drink andjust shut down and not think
that there was any possibilitiesor anything better that can come
out of life.
But I realized that once youstay engaged and engaged, it

(01:32:50):
doesn't have to be constantengagement.
But once I stayed engaged withwhat I wanted to feel and what I
wanted out of life, which wasmeaningful connection.
And that's really what I waslooking for.
But I wasn't able to find themeaningful connection because I
was doing things that weredis...
What's the word I'm looking for?
Dissingenuous?

(01:33:11):
Yeah, disingenuous.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:12):
Where did we get that dictionary?
I don't

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:19):
know.
The other day I read somethingon Twitter that says, you know
someone reads a lot when theyhave all these big words but
cannot pronounce them, andthat's me.
I be reading words.
Okay, that

SPEAKER_02 (01:33:29):
makes me feel bad, because I'm like, I read quite a
bit, but these words are notwording in my mouth.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:36):
They're not, because you actually have to use them in
person, but that just shows thatyou're trying to use these
words.
Yeah, so that's me all the time.
But yeah, so I, again...
I'm going to end it therebecause I got to keep going on
and on and on.
But I'm just so proud of all ofus.
We're doing the work.
You're listening to thispodcast.

(01:33:56):
This episode is doing the work,making intentions in the
morning, night, doing the work.
And I'm just proud of all of us.
Thanks for having me on yourgoddess.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:06):
Thank you too.
And I think you spoke to likewhat you're carrying with you
into this.
And I'm carrying that as well.
Like, I feel like this, thisconversation is a reminder of
like that we're human and like,we're going to come with a lot
of different emotions, differentfeelings, different backgrounds
until this work.
No matter like where we're at onthat journey, like me and you,

(01:34:27):
we facilitate this work and weare still figuring out our own
selves in it.
We are not perfect.
And so I'm just, I'm carryingthat with me, a lot of grace and
gratitude for my own humanjourney.
And I'm so grateful for you tobe on this.
Thank you so much for coming onthis podcast and sharing your
work.
I would love to also put yourshort film in the chat because

(01:34:49):
you didn't mention that, butI'll go mention it because folks
need to watch that.
I liked it.
I really liked it.
So thank you so much, Katie.
I'm sending you off with all theblessings and cannot wait for us
to speak again.

UNKNOWN (01:35:05):
What are you finding?
Amen.

SPEAKER_02 (01:35:06):
Thank you so much for watching this episode.
I love you so much.
I'm kissing.
I'm kissing consensually.
If you want that, I will ask youbefore kissing you.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the podcast.
I encourage you to meander ondown to the description link
below to share this episode, tipthe guests, and follow all the

(01:35:29):
magical folks that made thispodcast possible.
Deep gratitude to all of you.
Even patting my myself a littlebit on the back right now labor
of love labor of love latergator and may you walk with the
ancestors peace out 22,000 timesa day 22,000 times a day 22,000

(01:35:56):
times a day 22,000 times a day22,000 times a day

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