S5E3 Dismantling Gender in Conflict Work

On episode 3 of the podcast, I get to have a much-needed convo with Samia on how enforcing gender stereotypes can negatively affect how we navigate conflicts in queer communities and what ways we can start to dismantle it.

**Content Warning: This episode covers topics on interpersonal violence, s*xual abuse, and harm.**

GUEST BIO

Samia is a transformative justice practitioner and facilitator working to address harm, abuse, and violence within queer and trans communities of color. They are the co-creator of Transform Gender Collective, an accountability, support, and healing collective by and for transmasculine and masculine-of-center BIPOC. Samia facilitates workshops on community safety, empowerment self-defense, de-escalation, and other ways to keep ourselves safe without relying on the state. When they’re not working towards an abolitionist future, you can find them hiking in the woods or drinking tea.

CONTACT GUEST
TGC website: https://www.transformgender.com
CashApp: $samialalani

PRODUCED BY: Goddess

MUSIC: 22,000 by Spirit Paris McIntyre


SUPPORT SSC
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/GoddessSowerOfSeeds

FOLLOW SSC
Sunseedcommunity.com
FB/IG: @Sunseedcommunity
Subscribe to SSC here

Episode Transcript

UNKNOWN (00:00):
Ah.

SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Hello fellow weird and wild ones.
It has been a minute.
So much has evolved and changedabout your lovely host and me,

(01:02):
Goddess, and Sunseed communitysince season four of the
podcast.
And I am stoked to share some ofthe dopest folks I've met, and
some of the been in communitywith, and have learned from
along the way in season five ofthe SSC podcast.
So grab your drink, get yoursnacky snacks, and gather your

(01:24):
homies for the end times.
End of what?
I'm really not sure, but Ireally hope it's fascism.
But I digress, differentconversation.
Let's get on with the show.
You are inspiring.

(01:45):
You are inspiring.
You are inspiring at least22,000 times a day.
Thank you so much, Samia, forjoining the Sunseed Community
Podcast.
We actually first met at Fundersfor LGBTQ Issues 2025 Funding

(02:11):
Forward Conference, so I'mreally, really excited to be
following up with you andcontinuing whatever is possible.
So I'm going to go ahead andread your bio.
So Samia is a transformativejustice practitioner and

(02:32):
facilitator working to addressharm, abuse, and violence within
queer and trans communities ofcolor.
They are the co-creator ofTransformed Gender Collective
and Accountability Support andHealing Collective by and for
transmasculine and masculine ofcenter BIPOC.
Samia facilitates workshops oncommunity safety, empowerment,

(02:57):
self-defense, de-escalation.
I'm sorry, I'm stuck on theself-defense.
I'm like, oh, we need to talkeven more.
I'm so excited.
De-escalation.

UNKNOWN (03:08):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
and other ways to keep ourselves safe without
relying on the state.
When they're not working towardsan abolitionist future, you can
find them hiking in the woods ordrinking tea.
Yay.
So how we start the podcast,after reading your bio, I just

(03:28):
want to leave some time for usto invite in the folks that
we're carrying with us into thisconversation.
So our check-in question is, whoare you bringing into this space
with you today?

SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Yes, thank you for that question and also thank you
for having me on the podcast.
I'm excited to be here.
So today I'm bringing in thespace with me my mom, who I'm
just thinking about lately thesedays, and also my partner Bea,
who is very supportive of me andI just think about them all the

(04:01):
time.
And I'm also bringing in my bestfriend Akhtas, who co-founded
The Collective with me.

SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Hey, that's a good squad.
That's a good squad to bebringing it to the conversation.
I appreciate that.
I actually this like twoweekends ago, I went fishing
with my dad's gear and my dadpassed about like a year, year
and a half ago.
Thank you.
He transitioned.

(04:31):
Well, he was ready.
He was ready.
Um, but I'm definitely bringinghim into this space just, um,
given our relationship and allthe things that, um, he's now
currently working on as he like,you know, acclimates to being an
ancestor.
Um, I'm definitely bringing himinto the space, um, and my blood

(04:53):
family.
And then also my friends aswell.
Um, I will say in particularRory, um, who I love dearly.
And we are constantly talkingabout ways in which we are
thinking about planning safetyand security practices, showing
up well for each other and forour other loved ones and being

(05:15):
anchors in those that we love'slives.
So bringing them into the space.
And of course, the ancestorsthat are ready to do this work.
That is not easy to do.
Okay, so first question.
Sometimes I find myselfvacillating with what
transformative justice is.

(05:36):
You might feel this way a littlebit too.
There are clearly things thattransformative justice isn't,
but I do feel like how wepractice it is not all the same.
And I really appreciate actuallythat about transformative
justice.
So instead of asking you whattransformative justice is, I

(05:56):
want to ask you, how do you feelin your body, your spirit, and
mind when you practice it?
And why don't you just startwith that question first?

SPEAKER_03 (06:07):
I love this question because, yeah, I struggle with
the same thing sometimes.
I think that TJ can be kind ofan amorphous thing and is a lot
of different things.
So, yeah, in terms of how I feelit in my body, spirit, and mind,
I think it feels like beingwrapped up in love and
understanding, like thinkingabout, like, yeah it feels like

(06:28):
liberation like it feels likefreedom i think um it feel i
don't know if this is a feelingbut i'm i'm a very like um
thought person so i feel like mythoughts are also kind of my
feelings so um it feels to melike we're all kind of like
taking care of each other withinour own communities without
having to rely on anyone whoisn't us right so like like this

(06:51):
kind of I don't know, it feelslike a warm community embrace,
you know?
And something that I actuallythink about sometimes is, There
was a time once when I was likemeditating really deeply and I
felt this like really pure senseof being like held, like just a
really clear understanding thatit was all going to be okay.

(07:13):
And like all the little things Iwas stressed out about, like
guilt and shame and differentkinds of like difficult emotions
were just like passing, youknow, passing things and that
everything was really going tobe okay in the end.
And it maybe feels lofty, butlike that's what transformative
justice feels like to me.
to me, like these things aretough, but like, you know, we

(07:36):
can hold each other with love.
We can be deeply understandingwith each other.
We can hold the nuance, likeknowing your past mistakes don't
define you completely as aperson.
So I'm like, it feels like allof those things to me, but I
also don't want to sugarcoatwhat TJ actually feels like when
you're practicing it, because Iwouldn't say it feels like that

(07:58):
when you're practicing it.
I feel like in practice, it'slike pretty hard shit.
Like it can feel very stressfulYeah.

(08:28):
And, and when you'refacilitating TJ or when I'm
facilitating TJ, that is, it'sreally hard.
Like you're often askingyourself, like, am I doing the
right things here?
Like, is this really like, howcan I make sure I'm being fully
values aligned as I can feelreally messy and difficult.
So I don't want to make it seemlike TJ just always feels like,
you know, the community isswaying back and forth and

(08:49):
holding hands, you know?
It's like, that's likeultimately what it feels like to
me, but kind of in the, in themoment, it can feel like a lot
of tough stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
Agreed.
That is a really good way ofputting it.
Because yes, I think whendreaming into it, when you're
not in the thick of a actualcircle, like process, or hard
conversations, it does feel likea warm blanket or like, I think
for me, I have visuals likethis, like, pathway that like

(09:19):
has stepping stones and like I'mgoing on an adventure with my
friends and like we don't knowall of what's in store but we
know that there's steps to takeand like we know that we got
each other we know who's gotwhat skills and how we can like
work together um and that feelsum very like calming to me and

(09:42):
um i i would say like i have asense of safety around that like
it feels like a clarity and likeassuredness that even though we
don't know what's coming we doknow what we have to bring to
whatever is coming but in thethick of it oh yeah it is It is
hard.
You are brought into yourdiscomfort zone quite

(10:07):
frequently.
And there are so manyopportunities to grow and learn
new regulation skills.
So completely agree.
I think you kind of...
answered this a little bitaround like what you see in here
around you.
But is there anything else youkind of like want to add around

(10:29):
like when you are in a circle orin a process?
What are kind of the things thatyou like see or hear?
I

SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
really like the visual that you brought in of
like you and your friends justkind of navigating together and
having different skills.
And I feel like that reallyresonates for me.
I think that when I'm in aprocess, it can feel like week.
Okay, so like, imagine a stream,right, that's flowing, but
there's some rocks that areblocking the path, or they're

(11:00):
kind of like stopping the streamfrom flowing as smoothly as it
could.
And as a facilitator, sometimesit feels like I'm picking up
those rocks and moving them outof the way slowly.
So that that, you know, and thestream being, I guess, kind of
like the relationship betweenthese two people, or it can also
be like the healing of thesurvivor, or it can be the

(11:20):
accountability of the harm doer.
And there's things that feellike they're blocking it or the
things that feel like they'remaking it more difficult.
And I feel like as afacilitator, I'm basically just
trying to identify what thoserocks are and just move them out
of the way.
So that, that's kind of what I,the visual that I see when I
think about facilitation,facilitating processes.

SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
Oh, that's beautiful.
I like picture your hands, justlike lovingly reaching into the
water.
Yeah.
Taking them out.
I like, I really like that.

UNKNOWN (11:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
So how do you describe the work you do around
conflict and harm?
And why does it feel importantfor you to explain it in the way
that you do?

SPEAKER_03 (12:02):
Yeah, so my primary transformative justice work is
through Transform GenderCollective, which I co-founded.
And so we're an accountability,support, and healing collective
for transmasculine and masculineof center BIPOC.
And so basically, we focus ontransformative justice by and
for masculine people.
So when I say masculine people,I'm like the people who attend

(12:24):
our meetings totally variesbetween, you know, trans men,
mask of center lesbians, transmasculine, non-binary people,
butches, studs.
I mean, you kind of name it.
Right.
So that's when I say maskpeople, that's what I'm
referring to.
Just so I don't have to say thewhole acronym every time.
So, yeah.

(12:44):
So basically we support masksurvivors, mask harm doers.
We support mask people who arejust in communities where harm
has happened and who want somesupport in figuring out like
what to do and how to intervene,whether that's, you know, a
community member has been harmedand someone has told them about
it or their friend is the onewho's accused of harm and they

(13:05):
want to figure out how tosupport them, things like that.
And so that is a lot of, youknow, one-on-one support, like
workshopping people's specificscenarios and just kind of
hearing them out, providing somesupport to folks.
A lot of times I think peoplehave a lot of skills Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

(13:39):
We also at one point ran what Iguess you could call like a harm
doer intervention program.
So those in the domesticviolence space, they're usually
referred to as abuserintervention programs.
And they're really specificallylike usually court ordered there
for people who have causeddomestic violence, who are
abusers.
This is different.

(14:00):
This was more just like anyonewho's caused any kind of harm in
their life, especially moremajor harms.
So that could be abuse, likedomestic violence, That could be
assault, physical or sexualassault, things like that.
people who have caused moresignificant instances of harm
who need support in workshoppinghow to change their behavior,

(14:21):
how to make sure that kind ofthing doesn't happen again, how
to take accountability for thatharm and do repair work.
So we ran a year-long programfor masculine harm doers.
And we're hoping to bring thatback soon.
We did that a little bit ago andit took a lot of capacity.
So we just kind of are waitingfor us to have a bit more

(14:44):
capacity so we can bring itback.
It feels like a really importantintervention kind of program.
I would say we also do a lot ofpolitical education.
And so that's a lot of justtransformative justice kind of
101 type stuff.
And also I would say like reallypractical everyday ways of

(15:05):
applying transformative justice.
I think sometimes it's weirdbecause TJ can sound like really
lofty and really likeinaccessible.
And then other times when youreally break down what it is,
you're like, whoa, anyone canactually do this, right?
So we try to make it moreaccessible.
So we've done workshops on likehow to give a good apology or
how to talk to your friend whenthey did something that was

(15:28):
problematic or harmful.
So just things like that that wecan all really do or identifying
your own conflict style andfiguring out how you can
approach conflict in more...
liberatory ways.
So kind of more accessible TJtype workshops.
We also do a lot of work aroundwhat we call abolitionist

(15:50):
masculinities.
So we got the framework ofliberatory masculinity from the
Brown Boy Project, who wepartner with a lot.
And they do work with also masslike queer and trans masculine
people of color.
and so basically the thequestion for us when we're
thinking about abolitionist orliberatory masculinity is like

(16:10):
what does it look like for us toembody a masculinity that isn't
not only isn't toxic becausethat's really just like the
lowest bar right but it actuallyis actually supportive right
it's actually supportive to ourcommunities and to liberation so
it's not just like oh let's justnot be toxic okay that's like
the first step right and thenthe next step is like what does

(16:30):
it look like to be a masculineperson that's like actually
supportive for our communitiesand for liberation.
So that's the kind ofmasculinity work we do too with
folks.
And then the last program, I'mlike, wow, we have a lot of
programs now.
You do?
We're doing a lot.
Like we're doing a lot and we'rea team of four and none of us
are paid.

(16:50):
And I'm like, this is really,yeah.
Let's get into somesustainability.
Yes, please fund us.
Oh man, we could talk about thatall day for sure.
But yeah, the other program Iwanted to mention is we just
started a local transformativejustice collective in Baltimore.

(17:13):
And so our hope with that isthat that will become like a
local resource that people cantap into when harm happens in
Baltimore.
And we, you know, that could betapping into, you know, the
collective for like workshoppingkind of scenarios again, but
also for communityaccountability facilitation.
Cause we pretty firmly believethat like local intervention is

(17:35):
really where it's at when itcomes to accountability
processes.
Like we just can't, we can'tjust like come into someone's
community where we don't knowanyone.
We don't know the resources.
We don't know the landscape andbe like, like, OK, we're going
to do a TJ intervention here.
I don't think it works.
I think it has to be more localand people who understand the

(17:56):
context.
So really, our ultimate hope isto skill up as many masked
people as we can to be able tobe resources in their own local
context.
So we're a national collective.
So we do workshops for peopleall over the country, also
outside of the US, too.
And so our hope is that peopleare sharing these skills with
their friends, with theircommunity members and also

(18:17):
learning more and more to thepoint where someone can go to
them and say hey i'm dealingwith this conflict issue what
can i do and they are like iknow enough that i can i can
provide you with some supportyou know yeah

SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
yeah your offerings are very extensive um and so
needed i think there's a reasonwhy four people are holding all
of this um Would you say thatthere's like a difference
between maybe what someone willget from like a one on one where
it's a group of folks learningtogether versus it sounds like

(18:52):
some of the things that youoffer are actually like for
individuals to kind of like workthem through their own plans or
accountability plans?

SPEAKER_03 (19:03):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that they fill differentneeds, I feel like.
So I feel like the group spacesare really also community
building spaces.
Like a lot of the folks who cometo our groups don't have a lot
of deep community with otherlike trans masculine and
masculine of center people.
And so they're looking for thattoo, right?

(19:24):
To build like deeperrelationships with other masc
people.
And I think that the groupspaces have like a different
purpose where they can do thattoo.
And I think our group spaces area lot of like let's learn this
together like let's just figureit out together let's workshop
some scenarios you know let'ssee how it goes but it's more
like skill building withoutanything have having happened if

(19:45):
that makes sense maybe like youcould put it in the prevention
category and then i think ourone-on-one support tends to be a
lot more in the reactivecategory of like a conflict has
happened harm has happened abusehas happened and now it's about
repairing it and figuring outwhat to what to do next and so
that both are really necessary,I think, but I feel like they

(20:05):
serve different purposes.
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
Okay.
Okay.
So there's different ways,y'all, for you to tap in.
So I'm going to move us to acommercial break.
All the commercials, I encourageyou not to skip over, please,
because they are organizationsthat I deeply love and support.
So please check them out.
And we will come back after thisbreak.

SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
Rubble Art Collective is an activist art
collective, creator space, andused art supply store located in
Fort Collins, Colorado.
And we're fundraising for acommunity risograph printer.
We want to get the word outabout people and movements
working for the liberation ofall beings from systems of
oppression and provide ourartist activist community with a
unique form of creativeexpression.

(20:52):
Risos are great for zines,stickers, education material,
posters, and more.
Learn more about our fundraiseron our Instagram at Rubble Art
Collective.
Link in the bio All right.
Welcome back.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
I like that.
I love it.
I love it.
Welcome back.
I hope you learned about a neworganization to support and get
involved in.
Let's get back into thisconversation with Samia.
So I want to bring us into thepart of our convo where we
explore how gender norms areperpetuated in repair models and

(21:31):
how we can start breaking out ofthat cycle.
So can you explain how theTransform Gender Collective came
to be to kind of set the tonefor this?

SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
Totally, yeah.
So this is maybe gonna be alonger story, but I'm gonna do
my best to make it

SPEAKER_01 (21:48):
concise.

SPEAKER_02 (21:49):
Grab the popcorn.
No, we're in it.
We're in it now.

SPEAKER_03 (21:51):
Okay, we're in it.
So I'm just gonna get into it.
So basically it all started in2019.
I used to work at the NationalQueer and Trans Therapists of
Color Network with EricaWoodland.
And he was really big intoskilling us up with political
education, which I stillappreciate so much.
I mean, I learned a lot fromthat role that organization.

(22:12):
So our focus was really onhealing justice at the time, but
he was starting to bring intransformative justice more as
being pretty important to ourmovements.
Um, so he brought in Mia Mingusto do a TJ training for the
staff.
Um, and that training like justtotally invigorated me.
Like, have you ever been in aspace, you hear something and
you're like, Oh my God, this hasthe potential to change

(22:34):
everything.
Like that's, that's really howit felt for me after that
training.
I was, I was, I was listening toher talk about Everything she
talked about.
And I was like, oh my God.
And I think she really, shetalked a lot about how important
it is for all of us to havethese skills around addressing

(22:55):
conflict, harm and abuse in ourcommunities, like without
relying on the state.
And otherwise we will always endup relying on the state and
relying on people that aretrying, only trying to harm us
and oppress us.
And I was like, man, I need toshare this with everyone.
Like that was how I felt afterthat training.
I was so like vitalized.
you know?
So I just started, I was like,I'm going to invite all my

(23:17):
friends over and all the peopleI know in community and just
talk about everything I learnedduring this training.
I had taken like a lot of notesand she had shared some
materials and, you know, at thetime, you know, 2019, it's like
people had some understanding ofcommunity accountability
processes.
Like that was, and I hadactually, you know, had, I had
heard of that as well, like someyears before, just because

(23:38):
everyone was abolitionists andeveryone was trying to figure
out ways to like, not everyonewas abolitionists, excuse me,
my, in my community, people Iwas friends with and talking I
wish everyone was abolitionistno it is wild the difference
between your circles and

SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
then

SPEAKER_03 (23:52):
when you get it and you're like oh my god I'm like
whoa I don't I don't want to beout here let me go back to my
circle yeah exactly um but yeahso everyone I knew so which
feels like everyone um was anabolitionist so you know we were
all like trying not to call thecops or trying not to rely on
those kinds of things so peoplewere aware of community
accountability processes but themore extensive kind of

(24:15):
transformative justice work likehow how much more it is than
just community accountabilityprocesses.
I wasn't really aware of that atthe time and I feel like a lot
of people were like, whoa, thisis really cool and this is
really interesting.
I just kind of started sharingthat with folks.
And around that same time,because I was just obsessed with
transformative justice as aconcept at that point, I started

(24:35):
also volunteering withCollective Action for Safe
Spaces in D.C., which was run bymy friend at the time.
Still my friend, run at the timeby Ja'Kendria Trahan.
So I was learning a lot abouttransformative justice and kind
of like skilling myself up.
And around that same time, I washaving conversations about TJ

(24:58):
with my friend Akhtas who Imentioned earlier who came to
that group and we were talkingabout that a lot and we were
both kind of having similargender journey kind of stuff
around the same time aroundmasculinity and I was really in
a space where I was like what ismasculinity without toxicity
does that even exist like whatis it what does it mean to be a
masculine person like not be anasshole and I was just trying to

(25:20):
you know I was like I don't knowI'm gonna try to figure it out
so we were both kind of in thatin that space and at the same
time we were seeing just lots ofstuff popping off in community
around harm and abuse, likepeople just getting called out
left and right, and it's allmasculine people getting called
out for harm.
And so we're talking about it,we're like, what is going on
here, right?
So that was end of 2019, sobeginning of 2020.

(25:43):
So of course, COVID happensright after that.
So we're kind of in this spacewhere we're talking about these
spaces and dreaming about doingmore things for masculine
people.
And then COVID happens.
Everything kind of shiftsonline.
And in early COVID, there was aparticular person, a transmasc
Black person, who had a reallybig social media platform.

(26:07):
And they got called out reallypublicly for sexual assault.
It was early pandemic.
They were called out onInstagram Live.
And so, of course, all of us aresitting at home, nothing to do.
Everyone's on their computers.
So it got really, really big.
I mean, the last I looked at itback then, it got like 150,000

(26:28):
views or something.
It was wild.
And it was so messy.
It was so messy.
And again, this is a masculineperson being called out for
harm.
There were a lot of dynamicsthere.
And I feel like that's whenOktas and I were talking, and we
We were like, okay, we really,we really have to do this thing.
It feels like necessary.
So we basically just startedTGC.
So we started with a concept.

(26:49):
We were like, okay, we're justgoing to do online virtual
monthly meetings, like kind of amix of a political education
workshop and a communitybuilding space.
So we basically like started anInstagram account.
We started posting about ourmeetings regularly and like
actually started building afollowing, which was very cool.
So, you know, again, earlypandemic, people are on their

(27:10):
phone all lot so that helped usthat helped us get some momentum
going um so we started creatinglike you know i i don't know if
you remember like in in that2020 period especially summer
2020 it was like Instagraminfographics were the thing you
know

SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
it was like yeah

SPEAKER_03 (27:27):
with the slides and it's like a billion words yeah
the carousels and you're liketrying to zoom in to like see
what it says and it's like learnabout police brutality and this
like really cute like

SPEAKER_02 (27:39):
infographic

SPEAKER_03 (27:41):
I don't know I'm not making fun of it we did that
they're

SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
definitely helpful though

SPEAKER_03 (27:45):
they're super helpful I feel like they
politicized like a lot of peoplewhich was very cool very cool
I'm making fun of it but it wasvery cool um and i'm making fun
of it as someone who made abunch of those about justice

SPEAKER_01 (27:58):
for our

SPEAKER_03 (28:00):
digital zines yeah it was it was great it was great
and so um we started you knowmaking those and uh and having
these meetings and like somemonths in the beginning you know
we'd only have like one or twopeople come like we might even
have to cancel the meeting butwe just kept going which i feel
like is an important like thingto think about i you know we

(28:20):
just kept doing it we're likewe're gonna we're We're going to
be here every month.
Maybe no one else will be here.
We'll be here every month.
And then it started being kindof a consistent space.
And more and more people startedcoming to now where we have like
a decent following.
We have regular attendance.
We like, you know, consistentlyhave people at all of our
different types of programming,whether it's like virtual or in

(28:41):
person.
Very cool.
Very exciting.
So that was back then, 2020.
And now it's been five years.
We have two amazing additionalteam members that we added on
during that time period, MalikColeman and Mani Vinson.
And they're both amazing.
And we have way more programmingand super consistent attendance.
And we've provided, you know,all of this like support and

(29:03):
education to mask people.
So I feel like it's been asuper, a really cool experience
and journey.

SPEAKER_01 (29:08):
that's so cool and oh when you said like when no
one would show i feel that samething it's like oh do we is this
do we even people want this likehow do you yeah i love that
y'all continued and it just grewwhen it was time for it to grow
so that that's amazing

SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
yeah it really is it's very hard to keep showing
up yeah and you startquestioning like does anyone
care about this or want

SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
this thing right

SPEAKER_03 (29:36):
but

SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
yeah

SPEAKER_03 (29:36):
But people do.
Sometimes it just takes a minutefor people to find out about the
stuff you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 (29:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Or even be ready.
I know folks are like, I see it.
I'm not sure if I'm ready.
But consistently, if they seeit's available, maybe they'll
tap in later.
So yeah, it takes time.
I'm curious about when you firststarted doing that.

(30:03):
And I also love how it startedwith just having conversations
with their friends.
I'm like, I'm going to gatherall my friends.
I'm curious how when you firststarted opening it up to the
public and having theseconversations, the folks that
were coming in, what were someof the immediate needs that they
had versus now that it's grown,has the needs changed for folks

(30:26):
that are newer to the group?

SPEAKER_03 (30:28):
Yeah, honestly, I think what's interesting is that
the need is often kind of thesame, like across that time
period that I found is that,honestly, a lot of people come
to our workshops, just seekingcommunity with other masculine
people wanting to talk aboutwhat it means to be a masculine
person and an abolitionist and aperson who's invested in
liberation.

(30:49):
So I think that that's oftenlike a lot of what people are
looking for.
And that's what it felt like inthe 2020, because everyone was
really on their computers andonline, you know, just kind of
tapping in.
We had a lot more people, Ithink, who are maybe more
isolated than the people we seenow.

(31:10):
It's a lot of people who werepretty isolated, looking for a
community, looking forconnection.
So...
It was nice to be able tosupport people with that in the
earlier stages.
I think now too, we still have alot of people who come
regularly, who are just likelooking for a space to talk with

(31:30):
other masculine people, right?
So a lot of times people do haveconnections in their life and
their like physical life, butare like lacking in places to
have these specificconversations.
And so it's been cool to just beable to provide that space for
people.

SPEAKER_01 (31:47):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Especially during COVID, wheneveryone felt a little bit
isolated, then coming out of it,if you can say we are

SPEAKER_02 (31:57):
fully out of

SPEAKER_01 (31:58):
it, how it switched things.
So what are some of the patternsyou've experienced within
conflict care that perpetuategender norms?

UNKNOWN (32:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (32:11):
Yeah, yeah, a lot.
So I feel like one of the thingsthat actually that we noticed
that led us to start TGC wasnoticing that when we were
seeing all of these peoplegetting called out for harm,
again, almost all masculinepeople being in the harm doer
position in these processes.

(32:33):
As facilitators, we are seeingalmost exclusively femmes of
color, specifically black femmesas facilitators, holding all of
that.
It's so much to hold.
For anyone who's everfacilitated a process, you know
this.
It is so much, so much to hold.
And we're like, whoa, this islike really replicating the

(32:54):
emotional kind of labor burdenthat's usually put on women or
like, you know, femmes, femmesof color.
We were like, we don't know anymasculine TJ facility.
Whether that's cis men, whetherthat's trans men, masculine,
anybody.
I was like, this is not good.

(33:33):
an interesting thing because ithink especially the ways that
we've internalized the binaryand internalized you know
heteronormative gender normswe're not operating like we're
not saying oh i'm masculine so idon't have to do this work like
people aren't saying that butthat's that's what ends up
happening right like why elseare we seeing these these
dynamics where it's almost allfemmes holding this work right

SPEAKER_02 (33:55):
but

SPEAKER_03 (33:55):
it's care work and so Yeah, that was that was a big
pattern.
And so I do feel I do feel goodabout saying that I think what
we've accomplished, at leastpart of that goal, like skilling
mask people up on the principlesof TJ and also more practical
skills of TJ.
And so hoping that that has likeripple effects throughout their
communities.
So they were like treating theirfemme partners better, right?

(34:17):
Assuming everyone's partner isgoing to be femme for sure.
But saying, you know, for thefolks who have partners that are
femme, hopefully they'retreating them better.
Hopefully they're being moreresponsive to care concerns when
they see them.
So that was a really big patternthat we noticed.
Another thing that we noticedtoo, this is more in terms of

(34:39):
the dynamics we see playing outin accountability processes, is
like, you know, as afacilitator, let's say, or
honestly, for anyone if you hearif you hear about oh this couple
is going through a communityaccountability process which
first of all probably weshouldn't actually be talking
about that until it's finishedbut people do right and so if
you hear about this couplethat's femme and mask going

(35:02):
through an accountabilityprocess most people are like oh
the mask person was a harm doerlike oh they were the abuser
like they're the ones who whoharmed the femme right and i
feel like that's like a reallyconcerning replication of
heteronormativity that that ifeel like we see a lot Like, of
course, there are mass, thereare many mass people that harm
femmes.
There are a lot of mass peoplestruggling to come into their

(35:22):
masculinity without embodyingtoxic masculinity.
It's hard to do, right?
And so that's a huge part of whywe spend so much time like
working with folks onabolitionist and liberatory
masculinities.
And also at the same time, we'vesupported like a lot of mass
survivors who've been assaultedor abused by femme partners.
And a lot of times people didn'teven realize that they, that's

(35:46):
what had happened.
that happened, right?
Like they're telling us a story,sometimes where a femme accused
them of harm and we're hearingthe story and we're like, whoa,
it sounds like there was a lotof harm happening in this
relationship coming from you andalso coming from your partner,
right?
And a lot of times people aren'teven recognizing those things,
right?
So it's like the same waythere's an assumption that men

(36:09):
can't be sexually assaulted ormen can't be harassed or men
can't be physically abused bywomen, there's still an
assumption that masked peoplecan't be either.
And that totally extends to ourcommunities.
Again, even as we say that we'retrying to move away from those
assumptions and move away fromthe binary, Totally, we're
totally replicating it.

(36:30):
And one of the frameworks thatwe talk about, actually, that
has specific that isspecifically about gender at TGC
is this framework about thebinary that we see between
abuser and abused, or betweenlike criminal and victim.
And the way that that that'skind of a more of a TJ concept,
right?
That like, either we're eitherwe cause harm, or we experience

(36:52):
harm.
And that's, that's kind of allit is.
That's how we're taught.
But we know that it's so muchmore nuanced and complex.
complicated than that there areso many people who abuse others
who were abused themselves aschildren or when they were
younger same with assault samewith all of the harms like these
are cycles right right um andand you're not just in one
category or just in the other umand so we see that those

(37:14):
categories end up mapping ontomasculinity and femininity too
so specifically white femininityso white femininity being seen
as innocent always always thevictim always you know um always
being seen as as innocent youknow that's where white women
tears comes from right um isthis idea that like oh white
women are pure and innocent andand must be protected and then

(37:36):
masculine people specificallyblack and brown masculinity as
the abusers as the criminals asthe you know as the people who
are guilty perpetually guiltyand so we're we we put ourselves
into these boxes or these boxesare put onto us And then we in
our communities are trying toescape these boxes, right?
But we end up perpetuating themanyway in the way that we talk

(37:58):
about harm.
And that can be even a muchlonger conversation about how in
our communities we say that wewant to be abolitionist or we
say that we want to move awayfrom the state.
But then when it comes tothinking about how we deal with
people who've caused harm,people are very quick to say,
like, get them out of here.
Like, I never want to see themagain in a community space.
And those are all ways that wesee people as once an abuser,

(38:20):
always an abuser.
Like, not capable of change, notcapable of transformation.

SPEAKER_01 (38:39):
This idea of like the perfect victim.
And this is what I find.
I find myself struggling with inlike examples as I'm like
learning more and likecontinually strengthening my own
toolkit around facilitatingcircles is like this idea of
like the perfect victim.
Not only that, like they they'reusually femme.

(39:00):
and they usually take on kind oflike a role of mother in terms
of like they are not only theperfect victim like something
happened to them and they didnothing wrong in the situation
but they also like are held asan example of how to forgive and

(39:20):
like this mothering way likethey must then like take on the
role of like caring for theirown emotional needs plus the
person that caused them harmand, and like be all loving, all
forgiving and be like, comehere, let me hold you.
Cause I know that you have had ahard life.

(39:41):
And I'm like, Oh, this justfeels like.
Um, and if we're, and I, and Ithink, um, a lot of those
examples I would say are frompredominantly like hetero cis
spaces.
But when you bringtransformative justice, like

(40:03):
restorative justice forms ofconflict care into a queer
space, it really allows for achallenging of like breaking
that down and like who are thepeople who are being kind of
like, expected to take on a roleof caring and who are the people

(40:25):
that, um, are, are, are being,um, not baby.
I feel like that's like a, not anice way of saying it, but like,
who are the people who, uh, arenot being allowed to be in their
fullness and in a learning spacebecause of like, how are they,

(40:46):
how their gender is perceivedand how they enact their gender
and And so that is somethingthat I kind of see happening.
more in cishet spaces and alsoin queer spaces, but because
it's in like queer gender fluidspaces, it just feels a little

(41:07):
bit more nuanced and there's alot more room to be like, we can
play with this a little bitmore.
We can start to like break thisdown.
Um, so that's something that I'mconstantly like seeing and
experiencing, um, in differentways.
Um, and then also like learningmyself, like trying to unlearn
and teach myself new ways.

(41:27):
around of like oh how am Iclocking how I am seeing the
person who caused harm and howmuch I'm expecting them to be
involved or step into a circleis one way.
So yeah, I'm curious, like, whathave what have those experiences

(41:50):
taught you?
Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 (41:51):
yeah, I totally hear what you're saying about this
kind of like perfect victimidea.
Also, right.
I think that we all end up inroles that are put on us by
society, right?
Just like we were saying beforeabout gender, it's also true of
other things.
I think the perfect victim thingis totally caught up in gender
norms as well.
And I think one of the thingsthat I appreciate about TJ is

(42:16):
that in a well-designed process,someone like survivors should be
able to show up as messy, asangry, as upset, as like wanting
carceral punishment as they needto be, you know, because those
are real feelings, like revengefantasies are real, like wanting

(42:37):
someone, yeah, wanting theperson who hurt you to be hurt
themselves is a very real andcompletely valid human emotion,
right?
And I don't, I really don't wantus to get to a place where we
are saying like, oh, survivorshave to, you know, hold space
for their abusers or their harmdoers, or they have to they have
to say they have to forgive themor they have to hold space for

(42:58):
their emotions.
I don't think that that has tobe a necessary part of a
process.
You know, I really don't thinkso.
I think that the hope, in myopinion, with TJ processes too
is that there's so manydifferent people playing
different roles that there issomeone who is providing
emotional support for the harmdoer who is not the survivor and

(43:18):
that the survivor never for so Idon't think the survivor should
ever be playing that kind of arole unless unless they're like
in a continuing relationshipwhere they want to stay in a
close relationship with the harmdoer that might be a different
conversation but generallyspeaking I'm like there should
be people that are supportingthe survivor in hearing all of
of the, you know, revenge thingsthat they want and hearing all

(43:40):
of the real messy emotions thatare coming up.
And there's someone supportingthe harm doer and hearing them
say things like, I didn't dothat, or that wasn't that big of
a deal, or they're just upsetfor no reason.
Like, they have to get thosethings out too, because we're
not going to get to behaviortransformation without a bunch
of problematic things beingsaid, right?
Which is a real thing, right?

(44:01):
And we have to be able to hearthat out in order for us to get
anywhere.
Otherwise, people are justsuppressing how they feel,
right?
So I think in my opinion, inthat more ideal process, which,
you know, what even is thatreally?
But in a process where you havea lot of different people
playing different roles, my hopeis that the survivor wouldn't

(44:21):
have to feel that pressure tolike have to do that and have to
show up in that way.
But I don't know.
Yeah.
Oh,

SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
yeah, that it's tricky, because when I'm talking
with folks about like, you know,doing a circle, one of the
things I asked him was like,what do you need or desire from
this space?
And like, try to be clear withthem about like, what the space
can and can't hold because thereis a way in which, like,
transformative justice, thesecircle processes, you do need to

(44:54):
be in a place of really wantingto be, not wanting to be, but
being in the struggle together,and that includes with the
person that caused the harm.
Okay, yeah.
but not in a way that you haveto sacrifice your own needs.
Those needs to come first.

(45:15):
And so my first goal is to say,okay, if this is where you're
at, what are the ways that wecan set you up well to get your
needs met?
And then maybe circle back todoing a process.
Because if someone is in alreadya heightened state and they're
frantic, heightened emotions, inthe cycle of one to enact harm

(45:41):
themselves to other people,okay, there are still needs that
you have not gotten met yet.
So how can we meet those needs?
How can we bring in yourcommunity to first take care of
you?
Because I want to focus on you,but taking you through this
process might bring you not evenjust comfort, but more harm.

SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
And

SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
so how can we make that space first?
I do not have the full answer.
This is just what I like likelike felt has been like the most
helpful um for how i approachthings but it like like we were
saying before this this stuff isreally tough

SPEAKER_03 (46:22):
yeah yeah

SPEAKER_01 (46:23):
no i think you're no no no continue

SPEAKER_03 (46:27):
yes yes i feel like your approach like totally that
that makes sense that's how iwould i would think about it too
i i feel like um When I thinkabout the interventions or
processes that we've supported,I feel like a lot of times we
don't have, like the survivordoesn't wanna be in the same
space as the harm doer.

(46:48):
Or there's other ways to getneeds met.
I think one time we've supporteda mediated conversation.
And that was so far along in theprocess that both parties were
kind of at a more regulatedplace, I think, at that point.
It feels like with TJ...
I think what I like about TJ2 isthat there's so many ways that

(47:11):
it can look, right?
That sometimes if people want amediated process or a circle, we
absolutely can do that, right?
But then sometimes it's like,there's a bunch of stuff you can
do where you don't even need tohave a circle with, you know,
that person might never want tosee the other person again.
And there's still so many waysthat we can support like
behavior transformation andchange and survivor healing
without having to have thatdirect.

(47:37):
the things that you're talkingabout right which doesn't mean
that it shouldn't happenobviously a lot of people do
want that but more so just likeit it's like it's very easy to
get right back into that patternof like the survivor is now
comforting the harm doer and theharm doer is crying and upset.
You know, like there's so many,and I know you've seen it, so I

(47:57):
don't have to tell you.
There's, you know, there's somuch that can come up in that
space that I'm always like alittle hesitant, honestly, about
those unless someone is reallypushing for it.

SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
Yeah, I agree with you.
And I think this speaks to thedifferent types of, hair that
we've both done, because I workmore within organizations and
trying to do this work morewithin community versus you do
this more like, you know, it'swith loved ones or like, yeah.
like more community-basedsituations.

(48:28):
So I think, yeah, it speaksto...
It's

SPEAKER_03 (48:32):
all

SPEAKER_01 (48:32):
different.
It's all different.

SPEAKER_03 (48:34):
Totally.
And all very good approachesthat we need all of them, right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (48:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
So how can perpetuating gendernorms within transformative
justice work be counter to whatwe are trying to dismantle?

SPEAKER_03 (48:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean...
it hurts us in the end in a lotof different ways, you know?
I think that even with the mostradical of folks who say that
they're moving away from gendernorms in their relationships, I
feel like sometimes we still seea way that projections happen.
Again, we work mostly withmasculine people.

(49:12):
So there's a way that masculinepeople project toxic masculinity
onto ourselves and then alsohave it projected onto us by
other people.
And I also think, like I said,there's a way that sometimes
masked people are shirking thisresponsibility of caring for our
communities and seeing that aswork that primarily femmes do,
whether consciously orsubconsciously.
And so I feel like all of thathurts our communities.

(49:35):
Right.
And I think that especially whenharm happens, it feels like
those gender norms getparticularly salient.
Like, it feels like it's veryquick.
People are very quick to say,there's no way that femme
sexually assaulted that maskedperson.
Or, of course, the masked personis the abusive one.
What do you mean, right?
Like, there's very quick waysthat we jump to those kind of

(49:57):
internalized norms, even aswe're trying to move out of
that, right?
Yeah.
I wanted to mention this tweetthat I saw, which I'm just going
to read out loud.
It's like the very specifictrans mask experience of having
to unlearn the conditioning ofquieting your emotions to
appease others and insteadstanding up for yourself only to

(50:20):
transition and be told you havetoxic masculinity anytime you
give any indication that youhave a backbone.
And so I think that what's realabout that, and I think that
some Sometimes people get alittle tense when we talk about
this kind of stuff, or I feellike that happens sometimes in
community spaces, but it's like,you know, mass people, the mass

(50:42):
people we're working with, we'renot cis men, you know, like most
of us were socialized as girls,like lived adult lives as women
in some cases, right?
Currently may still live aswomen.
Again, we have, we have masslive center women who come into
our spaces as well, right?
Experiencing misogyny and sexismfrom cis men.
Like some of us are still havingthose experiences.

(51:03):
So it's not, it's not the same,right?
And it's like, yes, we do.
There are many ways that weperpetuate toxic masculinity.
I'm never going to say that'snot true And also, I think we
have to have a more nuancedconversation about masculinity
when it comes to queer spaces,because I think it just looks so
different.
And people take what happenswith cis men and just apply that

(51:23):
framework onto queer masculinepeople.
And it is different.

SPEAKER_01 (51:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Definitely agree with that.
And I think it's like, it alsolike speaks to kind of how we
enter into relationships as wellof like, what are the
expectations that you have ofthis person simply because they
express themselves as moremasculine or more feminine?
Like, how is that like feedinginto gender norms?

(51:54):
Totally.
And also not giving...
everyone an opportunity toactually do what is natural to
them instead of what is expectedof them.
Because there's this kind ofweird thing of like...
I've been in romanticrelationships where I have
expressed more masculinelybecause my gender fluctuates.

(52:19):
And it's interesting because atfirst I'm like, oh, why do I
feel like a dude in thissituation?
And then I have to ask myself,well, what does that mean?
And I'm thinking, oh, like acaretaker role.
But then when you think aboutmasculinity, it's like, since
when have like...

SPEAKER_03 (52:37):
Amending caretakers.

SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
And so, like, it's even in the way in which, like,
we kind of, like, set ourselvesup and, like, what does this
actually mean?
And what does this mean for howwe want, like, want to be seen
and heard and show up and alsowant that of our partner?

(53:01):
Because there is a way in whichwe need to be aware of how,
like, how we express might,like, be on the outside looking
in perceived in a certain way,but that shouldn't diminish our
feelings or like our ability toexpress a boundary.

SPEAKER_03 (53:22):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I feel like too, it's like,especially in our spaces,
identity is not behavior, is notgender performance.
You know, like those things canbe so different.
And I think that, you know,sometimes I feel like I saw this
kind of, joke like video goingaround on instagram or something

(53:42):
a while ago that was basicallylike you're seeing mask and
femme couples and then they'relike oh surprise the mask one is
actually really soft and and thefemme one is actually like the
hard one who like doesn't wantto cuddle or whatever you know
it's just like why are we stillsurprised by this in 2025 you
know exactly exactly Like, thisis, not to hate on that trend,

(54:07):
because I'm like, it's totallyworking, you know, people are
like, whoa, what?
You know, but I'm like, let's,yeah, let's go beyond just,
like, surface presentation,right?
There's so much more happeningunder there, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (54:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Well said.
Those tickle me.
Those tickle me.
Totally.
So...
What would you recommend cis oreven those that identify more
closely with beingstereotypically masked or femme
consider when addressingconflict?

SPEAKER_03 (54:40):
Yeah, I feel...
I feel like, well, one, I thinkTJ is really for everyone.
I think everyone needs theseskills.
I think everyone benefits whenwe work through our own
approaches to conflict and findmore connective and loving ways
of being with each other.
I think in terms of Yeah, well,for folks that are more maybe

(55:02):
like aligned with binary genderor who are cis people, I think
it's important for them tointerrogate also the things we
were just talking about, right?
Just because your partner is awoman or a cis woman doesn't
mean that she's going to want todo certain things around the
house or dress in certain waysor be caring and nurturing to

(55:23):
you in certain ways.
And the same way for cis women,don't assume that cis men are
going to want to be the buffguys who are taking care of
everything and are super stoicand never have any emotions.
I think that those things justseriously harm us.
I feel like when I'm thinkingabout...

(55:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.

(56:15):
And, you know, like the tweetexample where it's like, no,
actually, I've been goingthrough my whole life struggling
to say how I feel and being toldthat I can't have boundaries or
can't say how I feel.
And I'm working on that now andI'm trying to say how I feel.
And maybe that's related togender and maybe it's not,
right?
And same with anything else,right?
Like, I think that...

(56:37):
especially, you know, sometimesin, in the mask spaces that we
facilitate, we do hear thingsabout how people feel about
their femme partners that wehave to intervene in.
Right.
You know, that like, like don'tassume that your femme partner
is going to feel or do certainthings because of, because of
their gender, you know, likethat doesn't, that doesn't mean,

(56:58):
um, Yeah, it's not everything,right?
There's a lot more going onunderneath the surface.
And gender is important in thesedynamics because we see it show
up all the time.
But let's also look at what'shappening with this person
beyond just their presentation.

SPEAKER_01 (57:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I'm so bummed that we're goingto have to bring this to a
close.
So much more to talk about.
So what is something you arelearning about your own life
when it comes to conflict as youdo this work?

SPEAKER_03 (57:29):
yeah yeah um i feel like when you when you do this
work like i feel like it reallyhighlights the stuff that you
have to work on yourself youknow um like you even like you
know i think especially when yousee dynamics when you're being a
facilitator or a supporter likeevery time i'm talking to
someone about a conflict they'reexperiencing i'm seeing echoes

(57:52):
of myself my partner my friendsmy own life in that right
because we've all acted andshown up in different ways
throughout throughout our livesand and we're gonna see that
when when it comes into conflictso it's gonna it's gonna trigger
you if you're not working onyour own stuff or it might
trigger even if you are workingon your own stuff let me be
honest but you know it's likeasking yourself questions like

(58:13):
you know sometimes i'mfacilitating um something or i'm
supporting something and and i'mrealizing like oh the dynamic in
this situation is that thisperson really has kept their
resentments in for like a reallylong time and never said how
they really feel directly tothis other person and now it's
become this blown up thing I seethis a lot more in like group

(58:34):
kind of you know organizationalcollective dynamics and you know
then it makes me think about arethere places in my life where
I'm not speaking up whensomething is bothering me or
like am I building resentmenttowards anyone and you know
things like that and I think itit's important to do that
self-reflection as someone who'ssupporting conflict work I know
you know this like if you don'tdo your own self-reflection

(58:56):
you're gonna be oh my god allover the place right like Yeah.
Yeah.
man, you're going to beresponding to people as if
you're talking to yourself.
You know, you're going to beresponding to someone else.
Yeah, it's not good.
So it's like, you know, all wecan do really is try and work on
ourselves.
Like, we're never going to beperfect.
We all have our own stuff comingup, right?

(59:18):
And we're all going todefinitely project onto people
at some point, get triggered atsome point.
Like, we're all human, right?
But for me, I think it's reallyhighlighted, like, I need to be
very intentional about doingthis.
work in my own life and pushingmyself to show up in more
connective like you know ways inmy own life that aren't

(59:38):
disruptive because I'm seeingpatterns that show up for other
people and I'm like let me makesure that I'm not you know doing
the same thing in my own spaceso

SPEAKER_01 (59:47):
yeah yeah agreed um especially when you're like the
holding it in for a long time Ithink one of the things I'm
continually reminding myself ofwhen starting new relationships
of any kind is it's actuallyactually okay to start like by
studying the tone of like, theseare the practices that I have.
These are the ways in which Itry to keep me and my community

(01:00:11):
safe and like anchored.
And I would love to hear abouthow you do that for you, because
I think when you do this workit's rare not super but it's
rare to like meet other peoplewho are also like deep in it
yeah and so you're like oh maybei'm asking too much or like
maybe and it's like no no nolike it's okay because you're

(01:00:35):
gonna keep it bottled in andthings are gonna come up in the
relationship and you're gonnatry to find at least for me i
find any which way to like seeboth sides and then I hold it
and then I hold it and then I'mlike, I can't do this! No! Whoa,
whoa, whoa.
I was not in my practice fromthe beginning around like being

(01:01:01):
in intentional relationship andutilizing the skills I've
learned within transformativejustice.
So that's definitely one of theways in which I'm like
constantly reminding myself,like, yeah, bring this in
earlier on.
Oh

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:15):
my God, it's so hard though.
It's so hard

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:18):
to do.
It is.
It's very tricky because noteveryone has the language for
it.
Like you'll bring up like thingsthat I think maybe we kind of
consider as like based on...
can't even think of an examplemaybe like how how do you
communicate um like when you areat capacity um and the poll's

(01:01:41):
like whoa I've never been askedthat before I was like yeah you
should you should be asked thatbecause you deserve it

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:48):
totally yeah yeah I mean so many of these yeah yeah
yeah so so many of these thingsi feel like yeah people people
aren't used to having alsodirect communication in their
relationships so i think it canbe like really jarring the first
few times you i mean it was forme the first few times i
experienced direct communicationfrom someone i was like whoa are

(01:02:09):
you attacking me what is this soi like try to remind myself of
you know when i was there tolike remind myself of why other
people might feel that way umyou know the first the first few
times it happens and I don'tknow all we can do is really try
I try to apply the framework ofpod mapping I feel like in my

(01:02:30):
friendships and just like startlike I feel like the number one
thing that I try to do and againI'm totally not perfect very
much a work in progress and oneof the things that I try to do
is let's have theseconversations before a conflict
happens

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:44):
yes yes yes yes

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:45):
yes let's talk about like how do you want to hear
feedback how do you what happensif you get defensive what's the
best way for me to respond toyou you know like how how do you
receive care and like all ofthose things feel like they are
so supportive such a supportivefoundation when inevitably some
kind of conflict comes up itfeels like more easeful because
you kind of already know likehow to communicate with this

(01:03:08):
person

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:08):
absolutely and shameless fuck me and Roy are
working on a workbook to talkabout those things Tommy I think
you're gonna be doing like arunoff like workshop for that as
well so I'm excited yeah forthat but okay can you tell us
where we can find you what aresome of y'all's current

(01:03:29):
offerings all the things

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:31):
yeah so we are still doing like monthly free virtual
workshops for trans masculinemasculine of center BIPOC and so
sometimes we also have offeringsfor any queer and trans BIPOC
regardless of gender identityand so you can go to our website
it's transformgender.com or ourInstagram which is just at

(01:03:51):
transformgender.com transformgender and all of our most
updated offerings are going tobe on there.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:59):
Thank you so much.
And I will put the link to yourwebsite in the description.
And then as we say goodbye, whatis your heart carrying with you
into this great big wild world?

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:14):
Thank you for that question.
We're in such an intense timeright now.
Things feel really scary andhard and everything feels like
it's getting worse.
And I feel like the thing thatI'm trying to carry every day,
it's like, I think Miriam Kabasaid, hope is a discipline.
I'm trying to work on that.
I'm thinking about like howrevolutionary movements increase

(01:04:38):
as fascism increases.
So like, that's a hopeful thingis like, maybe we are going to
be more banded together.
other as community.
Like maybe we are going to beable to rely more on each other
and really, really get seriousabout liberation work.
And so I think that I'm justcarrying with me the hope of,
you know, more deeper community,deeper ways of showing up for

(01:05:01):
each other without, you know,dealing with the state, whether
that's like banding together formutual aid stuff or having more
skills for navigating harm, anyof these things, right?
Like there's so much more thatwe can do as communities to
support one another.
So I'm sitting with that right

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:19):
now.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yes, yes, yes.
I think I'm carrying with mesimilar.
I was saying that like abutterfly was outside my window
and butterflies are rare to seein the city of Aurora near
Denver.
And so to see more butterflies,I'm like, okay, like earth is

(01:05:41):
keep keeps going so we can wecan do it too humans come on um
but definitely holding um justhopes for more conversations
with like loved ones aroundplanning before even harm
happens before you go intocrises like what that can look
like and to like not give upeven when there's only one other

(01:06:02):
person in the room like how dowe continue to have those
conversations so i'm holdingthat near and dear and like
hopeful and renewed sense of I'mgoing to keep it going.
I

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:13):
love that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:14):
Keep it going.
Thank you so much, Samia, forbeing in space with us.
Really appreciate you and yourwork.
I'll put Samia's Cash app in thedescription as well.
And we're going to wrap up withone final commercial so that you
can find more community and waysof supporting dope

(01:06:35):
organizations.
So take care, y'all.
Hey, Hey y'all, it's Goddess.
I just wanted to do a big thankyou to everyone who has
supported the podcast over theyears.
Everyone who has laid theirblessed hands on this labor of

(01:06:55):
love.
Thank you, thank you, thank youto all the listeners.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I am not sure if it will becontinuing.
Um...
But I say that with hesitationbecause I really do love talking
with folks and sharing likethese amazing folks with other

(01:07:16):
people.
So I don't know.
But please don't be waiting forseason six.
That's what I'm saying.
Anytime soon, at least.
But what I did want to share isthat there's other ways to stay
connected with Sunsea Community.
As Samia and I talked about inthe podcast, Sunsea Community is

(01:07:41):
actually partnering with some ofmy dear community members on
creating several workbooks.
One will be on building intimaterelationships that can be
friendships, that could beromantic partners, that could be
play partners whoever you arebringing into your orbit how to

(01:08:04):
build um intentionalrelationships with them and also
create safety plans with ourloved ones so that when we do
encounter harm when we doencounter violence we have a
plan and we have trustedcommunity that we can go to and
then the other workbook that i'mcreating um with a fellow

(01:08:26):
community member shout out tomoon is a workbook honoring a
program that I used to run withAcorn Center for Restoration and
Freedom called The House ofOlakun.
So this workbook will be a wrapup of all the things we learned
as Black TGNC Plus folks who aredoing work in movement and how

(01:08:50):
we paired our movement work withour spiritual practices and what
it means to reclaim and dreammore for our spiritual practices
as folks from the Black orAfrican diaspora.
So I hope that you go checkthose out.

(01:09:12):
They will be free workbooks,free digital workbooks that you
can access.
And in celebration of theworkbooks releases, There will
be some events that will also befree coming out later in 2025.
So please sign up for theSunseed Community Podcast email

(01:09:32):
or follow us on Instagrambecause you will be getting all
the details to those dope-assworkshops.
I will not be leading them.
These will be led by otherfolks, including folks that have
been on the podcast.
So be on the lookout.
And thank you so much for yoursupport throughout the year.
I love y'all so much and I'm soexcited for all the different

(01:09:55):
ways that we will be incommunity together.
Thank you so much for watchingthis episode.
I love you so much.
I'm kissing.
I'm kissing consensually.
If you want that, I will ask youbefore kissing you.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the podcast.
I encourage you to meander ondown to the description link

(01:10:18):
below to share this episode, tipthe guests, and follow all the
magical folks that made thispodcast possible.
Deep gratitude to all of you.
Even patting my myself a littlebit on the back right now labor
of love labor of love latergator and may you walk with the

(01:10:39):
ancestors peace out 22,000 timesa day 22,000 times a day 22,000
times a day 22,000 times a day