September 11, 2025 • 71 mins
Are you planning your budget for the end times with your hommies? In episode 4 of the podcast, Leo and I talk about how we can incorporate liberatory financial planning into our safety protocols and how we show up for our loved ones in general. Oh and here's a link to the Ancestor I mentioned: Emma Dupree, Little Medicine Thing. Bless her wisdom!
**Content Warning: This episode covers topics on interpersonal violencel.**
GUEST BIO
Leo(they/he) is an anti-capitalist financial coach & educator, independent journalist & founder of Queer & Trans Wealth. Unlike most financial professionals, they are not trained to make the rich richer. He is a worker among workers, and does not abide by capitalist definitions of wealth. They are trained to help you spend & save your money in alignment with your values.
CONTACT GUEST
Queer & Trans Wealth website: https://www.queerandtranswealth.org/about
PRODUCED BY: Goddess
MUSIC: 22,000 by Spirit Paris McIntyre
SUPPORT SSC
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/GoddessSowerOfSeeds
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FB/IG: @Sunseedcommunity
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Ah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Hello fellow weird and wild ones.
It has been a minute.
So much has evolved and changedabout your lovely host and me,
(01:02):
Goddess, and Sunseed communitysince season four of the
podcast.
And I am stoked to share some ofthe dopest folks I've met, and
some of the been in communitywith, and have learned from
along the way in season five ofthe SSC podcast.
So grab your drink, get yoursnacky snacks, and gather your
(01:24):
homies for the end times.
End of what?
I'm really not sure, but Ireally hope it's fascism.
But I digress, differentconversation.
Let's get on with the show.
You are inspiring.
(01:45):
You are inspiring.
You are inspiring at least22,000 times a day.
So inspiring.
He's so inspiring.
Yay, Leo.
Thank you.
So, so much for being a part ofthe Sunseas Community Podcast.
(02:08):
I'm really honored to have youon today.
So I'm going to go ahead andread your bio.
So Leo Dehe is ananti-capitalist, financial
coach, and educator.
Oh, yes.
Listen, I was like, wait, did Ihit record?
(02:29):
And literally I heard it sayrecord.
SPEAKER_03 (02:32):
It's
SPEAKER_02 (02:32):
okay.
I might keep this in becauseit's just so
SPEAKER_03 (02:36):
weird.
Listen, there's a Mercuryretrograde in Leo.
So I've been, I feel like I'vebeen like, okay, slow, steady.
Just let whatever happens, justlet it happen.
I am
SPEAKER_02 (02:52):
so weak.
Oh my gosh.
Okay, I'll go.
Okay, let me back up, let meback up.
This is, this is totally stayingin.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Work.
SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
Leo Daigie is an anti-capitalist financial coach
and educator, independentjournalist, and founder of Queer
and Trans Wealth.
I love that bio.
So Leo, how we do this podcastis we start with kind of like a
(03:31):
check-in question to warm us up.
And then we And so the questionis, who are you bringing into
the space with you today?
Ooh.
SPEAKER_03 (03:55):
Who?
As in, like, an ancestor orsomebody?
SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
It can be an ancestor.
It can be folks that are stillon this plane.
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
Cool, cool.
Well, I'm going to start with awhat, because I brought my Hello
Kitty fake Stanley mug.
Oh! it's so cute it's rhinestonethere's some ice and fear so you
probably hear it
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
wait did you get that custom made
SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
no actually my partner got it at a first
bargain like one of those likealmost like a 99 cent store but
stuff is more like five bucksyou know like yeah
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
oh my gosh so it's my favorite
SPEAKER_03 (04:38):
thing
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
I'm loving this.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
And yeah, in terms of who I'm bringing here, um,
you know, I've just been doing alot of research about, um, one
of our elders who just passed.
Um, her name is Jewel ThaisWilliams.
Um, she, uh, She ran a nightclubhere in LA.
(05:05):
It was one of the first Blackqueer nightclubs, and she owned
it for 42 years.
And yeah, she did a lot ofincredible work, used the
profits from the nightclub tostart a Chinese medicine clinic
in the neighborhood so folks canget health care for free,
started a housing project forwomen and children affected by
(05:29):
HIV.
and yeah just all around goodpeople and so i've been i feel
like i've been speaking with hera lot and also speaking with a
lot of people who loved her umspeaking with a lot of like
nightlife folks who are inspiredby her so she's she's really
(05:50):
with me today
SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
Well, may Miss Jill rest with the ancestors.
And it sounds like she created awhole legacy of just, like, love
and care and joy while she washere on this plane.
So I hope that that continues.
I know it will.
SPEAKER_03 (06:10):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Thanks, Leo.
I think I'm bringing into thisspace with me...
my ancestors that were likewhich I think was all of them
but a lot of my ancestors whowere like figuring out what
wealth and abundance means tothem and like divesting from
(06:35):
working for other people andlike I want to have my own
business and what that meant andalso like my grandpa was a
hunter and like back in the andI think maybe still now like
that was how like my family likeoffset being poor is like by
(06:59):
hunting and there's a quote andI'm gonna oh my gosh I can't
believe I'm forgetting the nameof this elder slash ancestor but
like she talks about how likenot feeling poor when it came to
food because they always foundwhat they needed on the land and
And that quote just, like,really sung to me about, like,
(07:21):
what we consider as poor, whatdo we consider as wealth.
And this idea is, like, of,like, my belly was full and it
was full of really good thingsand nourishing things.
And I kind of, like, hold thatwith me.
If I can, like, I'm going toremember her name and put it in
the description.
But anyway, yeah, that's who I'mcarrying with me.
SPEAKER_03 (07:47):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
So providing context for how we met, we met at
Funders for LGBTQ Issues 2025Funding Forward Conference.
And I think you came to sit atlike the breakfast table I was
at and you were rocking like thedopest ass, like one piece.
(08:08):
Like I, it was everything.
Wait, no, no.
Was it, you're like, was it twopiece print?
It was...
It was a two-piece print, I'mpretty sure.
Yes.
And then were you wearing aone-piece some other
SPEAKER_03 (08:20):
time?
Another time I was wearing ajumpsuit.
I do love a monochromesituation.
Yes!
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Oh my gosh.
So basically, iconic outfitsthroughout.
UNKNOWN (08:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:30):
Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (08:31):
We love.
So that's how the conversationgot started.
I got so excited when you toldme about, you know, your passion
work.
And yeah, so I'm excited for youto be here.
Yeah, thank
SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
you for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
Yeah, you are absolutely welcome.
So let's get started there.
So how did queer and transwealth come to be?
SPEAKER_03 (08:56):
Yeah.
it's an interesting story of howI got here for sure.
Cause I will say, you know, um,like I went to art school in
college and like, um, was alwayslike painting and writing and
doing all these creative things.
And never in my life was I likeone day I'm going to be looking
(09:18):
at people's budgets eight hoursa day.
Like never, never did I thinkthat, you know?
Um, but what happened was, um, Iwas hired as, um, a journalist
in a newsroom to cover personalfinance stories.
I did that for about threeyears.
And, you know, I didn't, again,like before that I was writing
(09:43):
about like sex toys and makeupand fashion, you know, like, so
I think like the skills that ledthemselves to like, that led the
skills that led themselves tobecoming, you know, a personal
finance journalist was like, Iknow how to make people feel
comfortable enough to get themto open up about a really
(10:06):
intimate topic such as finance,right?
And just get them to talk aboutthat stuff.
And I really liked that aspectof it.
I just fell in love, honestly,with the folks that I was
interviewing.
I got to write some storiesabout the...
(10:26):
positive effects of, like,access to abortion for women and
folks who were able to receivethem and what that did for their
life and their sense of agency.
I got to speak to families whowere affected by anti-trans
legislation and, you know, justhaving to pick up and move
across the country with nowarning and, like, no savings,
(10:48):
usually, and having to go intodebt to be able to do those
things and keep their familiessafe and, you know, for them to
be able to access healthcare aswell, right?
So yeah, this is what I wasdoing.
And this is also primarily whereI got my training and how I
started to understand like, oh,here's like, I wrote some
(11:08):
stories like that.
And of course, there were some,you know, here's some rich guy
and how he managed his millionsof dollars, you know, so like,
this is sort of like where I gotmy training and how I got to see
like how like all the differentapproaches that people take in
terms of budgeting.
And, you know, when I was doingthat job, I just noticed like
(11:31):
none of the folks in the queerand trans community were really
reading my work.
And I was so frustrated becauseI was like, no, we need to know,
like we need to know this stuff,you know?
And even for me, like knowingthis stuff was like improving my
life, you know?
So I was like, okay, let me havemy own thing on Instagram.
so that I can begin to likeshare the stories that I'm
(11:52):
writing from a queer and translens, right?
And when I did that, I wasbeginning to get the response
that I wanted and I wasbeginning to reach the people
who I really wanted to speak to,which is like folks who never
got financial literacy in theirlives, you know?
And so, you know, from there, Ialways thought it would just be
(12:15):
content, to be honest.
I always thought I would just bemaking my little videos and
writing my little articles.
But like, over and over again, Ijust kept getting requests like,
hey, can you start coaching me?
And so I got some training inthat as well.
And yeah, and then started offfrom there.
I've been doing this full timefor like two years now.
(12:35):
So yeah.
UNKNOWN (12:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mark.
Yes.
And I love that this startedwith hearing other people's
stories and forming thoserelationships and being like,
this is something that I want toshare with more people and be
working on with other people.
(12:58):
folks that's awesome um also iused to i was in journalism
school as well that is so funnyi like i mean we yeah like i we
use it but it's not like you'relike i do not consider myself a
journalist anymore but i justtakes me back to journalism
school and like i i was afashion um journalist for global
(13:23):
panorama which no longer existsoh wow like I did a story on
cafe Cardi's as me and my friendCarla, because it's light
enough.
You know, you can just likebring with you and wear in a
cafe, but you can take itanywhere.
So cafe Cardi season.
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
Work.
SPEAKER_02 (13:43):
So thank you for that.
Last from the past.
And I, and I love that likethrough that of your, of your
story.
So I, Um, your two year plusyears of doing this, how, um,
what have you encountered inyour work that has challenged
you to unlearn ideas you oncehad around wealth?
SPEAKER_03 (14:04):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I had this, I, Ilike knew this logically going
in cause, um, you know, like,this is true, like, everyone's
definition of wealth is reallydifferent, right?
But, like, only at the secondyear mark has it really sunk
(14:27):
into my body, like, oh, right,like, everyone's definition of
wealth is different, like, forme, for example, what I define
as wealth these days is, like,my time, and, you know, and
having clear space on mycalendar and having days where
like, absolutely no meetings.
I'm just spending my days likereading and researching and
(14:49):
writing, you know, like, or not,or just, you know, doing my
laundry and like watching TV,you know, like vegging out, like
those are, like, that's kind ofmy marker for wealth is like,
how, like, can I set up myschedule and my finances in a
way that, you know, I only needto work so many days out of the
(15:09):
week, right?
um that's that's true for mehowever some other people are
like no like for me mydefinition of wealth is that my
work reaches like you know asmany people as possible and
which means like them you knowworking more hours and um doing
a lot more traveling and likenetworking and meeting people
(15:31):
right um some people definewealth as um you know, having,
not being super materialistic ina way, but just having like a
home and like two cars and, youknow, like some people do have
like a more traditionaldefinition.
(15:53):
And in my practice, I've beenworking really hard at being
like, okay, if someone's talkingabout their thing, that's their
thing.
And I can't be inserting what Ithink they need to be doing
almost, you know, because Ireally let folks like lead with
their definition of wealth andwe kind of plan around that, you
(16:14):
know?
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
Yeah.
You bring up a good pointthough, because even in your
definition of, for the longest,when I thought about wealth and
abundance, I thought immediatelymoney and what money can give
you.
But even in your definition of,or, like, how you apply it with,
like, your time and how you wantto be spending your time, that
(16:39):
actually does equate to, like,how, like, we are paid for our
time.
Like, there is this through lineof, like, and, like, the most
rich folks, they often have morefree time.
And I think we kind of, like,forget that or don't, like,
(16:59):
always know that of, like, Iforgot what's like the 80-20
rule or like how you like howyou spend your time working
should basically work for youlike less time working but more
time for free like for foryourself but what you're saying
(17:22):
is also like for some folksmaybe working more is like how
they get to their version ofwealth which i think is
completely valid too
SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
totally and this is the thing though like goddess
there are people who make likestacks of money and they still
feel like i gotta go i gotta domy which is like cool, good for
them.
Like, I know I'm not built thatway, to
SPEAKER_02 (17:51):
be honest.
Yeah, couldn't be me, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:53):
Right.
But like, you know, it sort ofdepends.
Like some folks, like, well,I'll be specific.
Some capitalists are like, yes,money for the sake of money,
right?
But there are folks on the left,let's say, where it's like, Yes,
(18:14):
I do need money to live and I'mmaking enough money, but also
like the work that I do is soimportant that I want, you know,
as many people as possible tolike know about it.
I want to help as many people aspossible, right?
With the work that I'm doing,which is like cool to them.
That is their definition ofwealth.
And I love that, you know, Ithink, man, I always feel like
(18:41):
when I come into sessions withfolks, like, Like I'm a colossal
killjoy, you know?
But like, cause like to me, whenI think about, when I sit with
my definition of wealth, as inlike having my time back, I just
have to make peace with the factthat I cannot help everybody,
you know?
Like there is a physical limitto the number of people who are
(19:02):
going to like read my work andlike use that to, you know, help
them like budget and, whatever,there's a limited amount of
people that I can see one-on-oneor in groups or couples.
And I have made my peace withthat.
I'm like, great.
To me, I'm almost like, I justsay thank you to the ancestors
(19:26):
for the fact that there is astopping point.
Whereas sometimes when you,especially if you work for
yourself, there's this feelingof like, I need to eat like
forever, like for the rest of mytime on earth.
And therefore I need to like doas much as I can, right?
And like, it's a differentmindset than like somebody whose
(19:47):
definition is more like, oh, Iwant to help as many people as
possible.
They then have this mindset oflike, my lifestyle like is going
to be there's a certain cap towhat my lifestyle is also.
Right.
Cause they're going to spendtheir time instead of like, let
me maximize every wealthopportunity.
(20:08):
You know, like that's not theirmindset either.
Right.
So it's like, cool.
Like they, for them, the mindsetis like, I'm going to have to
accept and compromise that, youknow, the apartment that I live
in is like, this is as big as itgets, you know?
Which is like, that's also okay,right?
Like,
SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
it's just
SPEAKER_03 (20:27):
different ways of looking at it.
And I'm even thinking aboutlike, you have brought in your
ancestors who like, didn't wantto work for other folks, right?
I think it comes with anacceptance of like, okay, being
self-employed is like, thenumber...
(20:50):
the amount of like work I'mwilling to put in in the
beginning, not just in likedirect, you know, sales or
anything like that, but morelike the networking that maybe
it pays off like years later.
You know what I mean?
Like, like being willing to bemore flexible about your concept
of time versus like, okay, onehour in$30.
(21:14):
You know what I mean?
Like,
SPEAKER_02 (21:17):
so
SPEAKER_03 (21:18):
yeah, I'm, I'm learning a lot, like, it's just
sinking into my, I mean, Ialways knew this, you know, but
it's really just sinking inlike, oh, yeah, everyone's
definition really is different.
And also, there's differentcompromises everyone needs to
make within that definition,right?
SPEAKER_02 (21:37):
That's a good point.
Cause yeah, I think I'm like, Istrive to find this sweet spot
between like, I don't want to bea martyr, but I do want to work
for something that is inalignment with my beliefs.
I also don't want to be someonewho is over consuming and taking
(21:59):
more than what I need.
Like, where's the sweet spot?
Cause I do want to live well.
SPEAKER_03 (22:04):
Totally.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:07):
very sweet life.
I want that for all of us.
So I, I definitely hear whatyou're saying.
And then that idea of like,there are certain trade-offs
because we both work forourselves.
And there are like, I had totrade, not had to, but I've
(22:30):
redefined what it means tocreate like a schedule and like
admin because like, by workingfor myself, that's something
that now I have the opportunityto curate, which is a part of my
practices of like, okay, if youneed to cure, if you need to do
the admin tasks, if you need tofill out the taxes and all of
those things, how can you dothat in a way that aligns with
(22:52):
how you want to be feeling inyour day-to-day life and within
your work.
But that was a trade-off forhaving someone else do it while
also working for someone else'sdream.
SPEAKER_03 (23:03):
And
SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
I will take that trade-off at this
SPEAKER_03 (23:07):
point.
Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
Yeah, so that's a very good point.
A lot of the work you do isaround supporting folks.
So like, yes, with budgeting,but like how to look at their
community overall as like a partof their wealth plan.
(23:30):
So what ways of building andsupporting our communities have
you learned since starting thiswork?
SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
Oh my God, so many things.
I mean, I've learned...
to never underestimate when afriend has been like, Leo, I see
you're going through it.
Can I take you to lunch?
It's so simple, but it's sopowerful.
And it's something that I'mtrying to do this coming Friday.
(24:06):
july 25th for the people in thefuture um diana ross is playing
at the hollywood bowl i know andso i bought me and my partner
some tickets and i was like letme buy one extra because i know
some friends who would be likewow like a ticket to go see
diana ross it would be so funyou know what i mean like like
(24:28):
everyone's going throughsomething right now i mean it's
wild time so i was like yeah letme just get it and like To me,
like, how fun, you know?
Yes!
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
I love this.
There's something, like, in bothexamples.
In one, a friend saw you havinga tough time and was just
like...
Let me take you out to lunch.
Let me get you lunch.
And then the other one, you werelike, I know there's someone in
my life who would really, thiswould bring someone I care about
(25:01):
a lot of joy.
And so let me just like getthis.
And I think in both, there'sthis spaciousness within where
you're at.
in your version of wealth whereyou have capacity to actually,
first of all, see when someoneis in need and have the capacity
(25:23):
to show up for them and not haveit stress you out.
That feels like wealth.
That feels like abundance.
Yes.
I want to be able to support myloved ones, but have it not
stress me out and have it bewith ease for the both of us in
little things like you know, Ihave a ticket for you.
(25:45):
Just come fam to like, you know,you're having a tough time or
like you're going through, youknow, becoming a parent,
whatever it might be.
And be like, let me offer thisto you and like, have it, have
it not be like such a earthquakeof a situation.
(26:07):
I love it.
I mean,
SPEAKER_03 (26:08):
that's the thing too, right?
Like, something that happenswhen folks get really clear
about their numbers and likewhat money's coming in, what
money's going out is like folkswill then develop the skill also
to say, hey, I can't affordthat, but here's an alternative
that I can't afford.
And like, I would still love tohang out with you.
(26:29):
Right.
I would still love to spend timewith you.
So like it's a specificity andasking for help, you know, and
also beginning to kind of breakthe stigma of like, well, we
can't talk about money.
It's like weird to talk aboutmoney, you know, but like, like,
you know, I can't tell you howmany times I've been able to say
like to a friend, I got$40,like, you know, for this, for
(26:54):
this whole hangout that we'resupposed to have, like, how can
we make the most of the$40, youknow?
And this is something that myclients are finding they can do
as well.
And this is like, like one ofthe common things that I see is,
you know, a lot of people willsay like, oh, I'm spending too
much money on food and like takeout.
(27:15):
So sometimes we spend a wholesession just getting really
clear on breaking food down intothree categories, which is
basically groceries, you know,your Postmates, DoorDash, all
that stuff, like almost likeconvenience eating, like
decision fatigue type of eating.
(27:35):
And then like, what is theactual like social, you know,
connecting with friends type ofdining out.
Right.
Um, so we break that down andthey always have this feeling of
like, well, I can't like affordto hang out with my friends
anymore.
I'm like, actually you can, ifyou just shift the like decision
fatigue budget a little bit moretowards social, you know?
(27:58):
And yeah, like really, um,clarifies a lot of things, which
is like, I do have space toconnect with people, you know?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
Oh, I love this.
And I, I appreciate thebreakdown of like groceries,
like, like decision fatigue,buying a food versus like
social, like as someone who'sneurodivergent, like I, for a
while there, I didn't havecapacity and still don't a lot
(28:27):
of days to plan my own meals andcook for myself.
Like that energy needed to go toa different part of my day to
day.
And so I was meal prepping.
It just so happens I stopped,not meal prepping, but like
buying those like pre-mademeals.
It just got to the point where Iwas like, oh my gosh this shit
has like no flavor I can't eatthis anymore but it was
(28:50):
important for me to be like feelcomfortable with saying like
yeah like um I don't havecapacity to buy groceries and
make my own meals this issomething I need to budget for
and prioritize as a part ofmeeting my accessibility needs
um like, and not feel shame withthat.
(29:13):
And so like going back to yourother example of like saying
like, Hey, I only got$40 forthis.
Like I, that is so importantbecause I think we all have
people in our lives who havedifferent incomes, have
different things that they'reprioritizing with their money.
And like, that shouldn't preventus from being able to hang out
(29:34):
with them.
Like we can hang out on$0, butwe can hang out on 400.
Like,
SPEAKER_03 (29:40):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (29:42):
Well, like, let's, like, meet and meet in the
middle somewhere.
Yeah.
And, like, getting rid of thatstigma of acknowledging what we
have financial capacity to do, Ithink is important, too.
SPEAKER_03 (30:01):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
Yeah, I feel that.
Are any of...
the ways in which you like pairwealth with like community care
and like support connected tohow your blood or chosen family
have historically shown up foreach other or even ancestrally?
SPEAKER_03 (30:23):
I'm just going to giggle.
You know what?
I'm doing this new thing.
Like I realized that my brain istrained to like, let's linger on
the, you know, the bad stuff,the bad memories, the like harm
that has been caused.
And I'm trying to like retrainmy brain to remember like, no,
(30:46):
what were the good things thatthis person, that person, you
know, they brought into my life.
And something I've been,something I really appreciate
that I grew up witnessing, mymom is like the most social
person I know.
Like she is, She always had,like, a ton of friends, and I
(31:11):
really admire the way that she,like, kept up with her
friendships.
So she used to, when she would,like, she would just have, like,
cleaning on a Saturday orThursday night or something, or,
like, a bunch of dishes or abunch of laundry to fold, and
every time she would do that,she would call a friend and
just, like, you know, like,yeah, what's going on with you?
(31:34):
Like, just checking in to sayhi.
Yeah.
That I really appreciate and issomething I feel like I do now.
And you know what's good aboutthat is I think a lot of us
maybe through social media orthrough like the movies or
something, like we have thisconception that when you finally
(31:54):
ask for help for something, it'slike this dramatic thing and
like, you know, trumpets playand like whatever, right?
And like someone has to come andlike save you when you're in
this like insanely like hardplace.
And to me, like this practicethat I saw my mom doing, it's
like a very, like I'm checkingin with you on a consistent
(32:16):
basis so that if there wasanything that we needed to bring
up that's awkward, like, youknow, there's kind of this like,
it's cool, I'll still call youtomorrow or like next week or
whatever, right?
So I really appreciate that.
And I think her, my mom's thingis during the, when the pandemic
(32:39):
started, she and her siblingswere, They started to call each
other every day.
One of her siblings lives in NewYork.
My mom lives in New Jersey.
And the rest of them live in thePhilippines, right?
So they would coordinate.
(33:00):
They would get on FaceTime everyday and they would pray the
rosary.
SPEAKER_02 (33:03):
And
SPEAKER_03 (33:05):
they still do that now.
Are they asking each other forhelp on their real problems?
I don't know.
But like, you know, I...
to me it's something that I'veapplied like the consistency of
checking up on people so thatwhen you do need help it's not
like this dramatic like oh mygod you gotta come bail me out
like you know like where it'slike I can sort of like hey I
(33:29):
need I just need to talk throughthis thing like cool and then
like the week after that it'slike oh yeah like do you have
something you want you know whatI mean like it's more measured
than like okay, like now I'mgetting evicted, which is like,
people do go through that.
I think it's just hard when, youknow, folks aren't communicating
(33:53):
along the way, like this is whatI need to make rent and like
keep my debts current so that,
SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
you
SPEAKER_03 (33:58):
know, not to, I know that's a really tough experience
not to like put anything else onfolks' plate when they're going
through that.
But like, yeah, it's justsomething I think about, you
know,
SPEAKER_02 (34:10):
yeah like the only time hearing from someone is
like when they're going throughsomething um really heavy and
like if we had more you knowcommunication with this person
maybe we would have known beforeit went too far and could have
(34:30):
supported sooner or even justlike set up the relationship so
that it's not awkward talkingabout really hard shit Yeah,
absolutely.
I've never seen a picture ofyour mom.
Three women.
I don't know how many.
(34:50):
Getting together to pray a rose.
I don't know what that wouldlook like.
It's cute.
It's giving.
SPEAKER_03 (34:57):
Yeah, it's
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
sweet.
Those are really sweet.
They're...
In your story, it also remindsme of going back to a previous
response you had around payingfor your friend's ticket or a
friend noticing you're having ahard day of...
(35:25):
Abundance for me, part of it islike having a life where it
feels like I have enough spaceto actually think about people.
Yeah.
And I don't mean that in adismissive way.
Like, I truly love all the,like, you know, my chosen
(35:45):
family.
But I also acknowledge that whenwe get busy, it's harder for us
to check in with each other onthe small things.
And so then it just feels likewe go farther and farther apart
simply because we're trying tolike...
keep up with this likecapitalist grind that we don't
(36:07):
even want to be on in the firstplace.
And so for me, a button, I like,I remember a time where I was
working for myself and also likereally intentionally spacious
with my time.
And I had so much more, I waslike checking on folks more
(36:29):
often and, And they would belike, I have to go do this,
this, that.
I'm like, darn, you seem hellabusy.
I don't want that.
But it's good to see you.
And now I'm working back towardthat.
How do I create thatspaciousness again?
(36:50):
Because I think that there's awealth in that in itself of
having enough time to...
to just tap in with folks yeahabout like even like small shit
it doesn't have to be this heylove you gonna drop by like some
I don't know I don't know whyI'd be dropping by I
SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
mean I'll say this I feel like I've like some of my
clients are like just theraddest people ever like I've
seen people maybe it's like apartnered couple and they're
like living alone and theirexpenses are really high and
they decided you know what we'rejust gonna move into a different
apartment with like two otherfriends which is a little more
(37:35):
non-traditional right but likeover time it's still that like
we gotta stay tapped in so thatwe can figure out who we want to
live with if that is like achange that we want to make
right I have some clients whoare also um, this is really
cool, actually, like some folksthat I've met, um, who are
(37:56):
stewards of a susu fund.
SPEAKER_02 (37:59):
Oh, I don't know.
Okay.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (38:01):
Yeah.
And you know, for the listenerout there, we'll just describe,
um, a susu fund is like everyoneputs in, you know, a certain
amount of money.
And then, um, I think eachmonth, um, on a depending on how
many people are in there, likeeach month somebody gets to take
(38:23):
like a payout from the fund,right?
And then like whoever gets thepayout, it kind of rotates or
sometimes it depends on whoeverlike needs it the most in that
moment, right?
But yeah, it's the idea of likea collective savings kind of a
thing.
(38:44):
I hope I'm describing thatright, but this is my, this is
my understanding of it.
And, you know, like things, Ifeel like we often romanticize,
like, this is how, like, look atthis amazing collective savings
that, you know, these, thisgroup of folks have built, but
(39:04):
like, that starts with liketrust, like conversations that
build trust and, you know, evenactions that build trust, you
know, like, you know, do youshow up on time, you know, or
like, it's cool.
Not everyone gets to, you know,I mean, I understand CP time,
(39:26):
like Filipino time, like to, Iget it.
But like, even like, you know,do you pick up the phone when I
call you kind of thing?
Do you answer, you know, likestuff like that, it really adds
up into like, can i trust youand then based on that trust can
we build an economic systemtogether that is like you know
(39:51):
serves us a lot more than likethese capitalist systems little
by little
SPEAKER_02 (39:56):
yeah yeah absolutely um and that's the whole word
around like feeling so like,stretched thin with your time
that you're, like, showing uplate and things, and, like,
yeah, CP time is a thing.
I have my own thoughts about,but I, like, for me personally,
I will speak, like, I actuallydon't like the feeling of being
(40:19):
rushed and having to go from oneplace to another or feeling,
like, when I'm with people Icare about, I can't fully be
present because I'm so worriedabout trying to get to the next
thing or other things are on mymind.
It doesn't feel like what I,like a life that I want to, like
a feeling that I wanna have on aconsistent basis.
(40:39):
And I'm so excited you broughtup SUSU funds.
Cause yeah, like myunderstanding, like, so SUSU
funds are like traditionallylike, Black folks started that,
but a lot of cultures have theirown versions of these.
Yeah.
koreans have like kyeongmaekyeongmai sorry i'm like korean
(41:01):
like is it am i saying thatright but sorry if i'm
butchering it but it was it waslike similar um and that was
like how uh like koreanbusinesses um and home ownership
was able to happen in umcalifornia like years back so
there's there's differentversions of these and i think
(41:24):
it's really cool when like westart bringing these back and
applying them and likereinventing them to what
abundance might mean for usbecause maybe it doesn't mean
like home ownership or it mightbut like home ownership or like
having a business you know withthe like having a family with a
white picket fence but likecreating like a collective
(41:45):
house.
Like what could it look like forthat?
So I appreciate that.
So I'm going to take us into alittle break.
And again, y'all, please do notskip over the next 60 seconds.
These are dope ass organizationsthat I support and care about.
So please give them a listen andwe will meet you after the
break.
SPEAKER_00 (42:04):
I'm Marquesa Tucker-Harris, Executive
Director with the AfricanAmerican Roundtable in
Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
ArtsVision is a joyful politicalhome for Black people to thrive
in liberated and interconnectedcommunities.
Our mission at the AfricanAmerican Roundtable is to
organize, nurture, and transformBlack leaders to build power in
service of Black liberation.
(42:25):
We get to do such amazing workhere in the city of Milwaukee
alongside residents.
We'd love for you to learn moreabout our work.
Visit us at aartmke.org.
all
SPEAKER_02 (42:37):
right welcome back so let's get back into more
questions it's so funny there'sno pause like i'm gonna create
the pause but there's no pausein this cover anyway sorry
that's back and shit um So wetalked a bit about how
(42:58):
rethinking wealth can help usstrengthen our communities, but
what are some ways that financesor other parts of wealth can be
used to enact harm in our
SPEAKER_03 (43:06):
relationships?
Yeah, yeah.
I wanna ask you a question,situational question.
Has there ever been a time whereyou've been like stressed about
money And then, you know, maybelike an hour later, you have to
go meet someone.
(43:26):
You've just like opened youraccounts and you're like, oh,
shit.
And then like an hour later,you're supposed to meet someone,
but maybe you're not that close.
And then that stress kind ofbleeds into whatever like lunch
you were having.
Right.
Is that something that's everhappened to you?
SPEAKER_02 (43:44):
Yeah, I think so.
I think just overall, justhaving that feeling like, oh my
gosh, shit, I'm poor.
Where's the food going to comefrom?
Yeah, absolutely.
Definitely bled into how Ishowed up.
SPEAKER_03 (43:57):
Totally.
I mean, I hope when folks listento this, they're like, oh yeah,
shit, that has happened to metoo.
But especially in romanticrelationships or platonic ones
where maybe you live with yourroommate who you love very much,
Yeah, I mean, this kind of thingjust happens over and over and
(44:19):
over again, like on a moreintimate scale than like someone
random you're about to havelunch with, you know?
And I think that it snowballs ina way that people like don't
even understand how they gotthere, you know?
So for example, sometimes I workwith couples where like, it's
(44:42):
their first time kind of showingeach other like, here's what's
going on under the hood or like,you know, here is how much I
spend on massages every month,right?
And they like, it's almost likethat Spider-Man meme where
they're pointing at each otherlike, whoa, like, you know,
and...
Thanks
SPEAKER_02 (45:03):
for bringing Spider-Man into this.
SPEAKER_03 (45:05):
Yeah, just like realizing like, oh, wow, like,
that's what's going on.
But then before that, it waskind of like, okay, there's all
this tension.
We don't understand why.
And it's kind of because folksdon't understand how to have
those conversations and havethat transparency in those
relationships, where they cantalk about things without like,
(45:26):
kind of projecting trauma alongwith like just the number of
like, oh, this is what I spenton.
It becomes like, well, you spentthis on that.
And meanwhile, I'm saving, youknow, like it becomes like a
really tense thing that happens,right?
(45:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (45:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:52):
Just like the feeling like uncomfortable or
like resistance to sharingwhat's happening.
Like, as you said, under thehood financially, because it
might change, like you think itmight change the way, like, you
know, your romantic partner orother, like look at you.
(46:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
This like, I guess this isbefore the relationship gets
going but honestly I have alwaysbeen and this is probably off
topic but I've always struggledwith like how to bring up paying
for the meal when you're datinglike there's just I know it's
(46:37):
tied to like some type offinancial trauma there and I'm
still trying to work out like Iwant to be radical about this
but like I still just like yeahyeah I don't know.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:54):
If I can, I can respond to that.
Cause like,
SPEAKER_02 (46:57):
yes, please.
SPEAKER_03 (46:58):
You know, this is something I see like, let's say
like you meet someone on an appor like you're texting, you're
like figuring out the plan.
Right.
I think like, you know, whoever,whenever the, the coffee shop or
the or the restaurant orwhatever gets put in the chat I
(47:23):
think it's more than okay to asklike hey so this is like I've
been here it's probably thismuch per person like are you
cool with that and I think justasking what the price can open
up like okay like what do wewant to do right like the other
SPEAKER_01 (47:40):
person might be like
SPEAKER_03 (47:42):
yeah the other person might be like oh well
yeah, that's cool.
I was, you know, and then ifthey're nice, they're probably
like, I was hoping to buy youdinner.
So if they suck, they'd be like,if they suck, they would be
like, Oh, why are we talkingabout this?
You know what I mean?
But like, and
SPEAKER_02 (48:03):
then that's a nice invitation.
Yeah.
I
SPEAKER_03 (48:06):
think just acknowledging like, even like,
I'll make a joke too.
Like, Oh, this says it's$2 signson Yelp.
Like, are you good with that?
Like, Are
SPEAKER_02 (48:16):
you a$2 sign person or a$4 sign person?
SPEAKER_03 (48:20):
It depends on the date.
Yeah.
It just depends on the date,right?
Because if it's a first date,I'm like, I'm not investing$4
signs.
I'm going to find out first inthe$2 sign range.
Respectfully.
SPEAKER_02 (48:36):
Respectfully.
Okay, I'll be so honest becauseI...
If it's a cis man I'm going outwith, they paying.
SPEAKER_03 (48:45):
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (48:46):
On our principles alone, you're paying.
SPEAKER_03 (48:50):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (48:50):
Anyone else we can have that conversation with.
Close
SPEAKER_03 (48:53):
the wage cap, babe.
Close the wage
SPEAKER_02 (48:55):
cap.
I know, exactly.
Anyway.
That's a good point.
And I think, yeah, it justinvites in the conversation
around how folks kind of want tospend their money or like expect
(49:15):
for like who pays what to kindof go.
And so I like that.
I'm going to try that out when Ihave my next date in like two
years.
SPEAKER_03 (49:27):
But also, you know, the second that, you know,
whoever drops like therestaurant suggestion in the
chat, you got to check in withyourself and be like, okay, what
do I want to do given that thisis where they want to go, right?
So yeah, it just, it kind ofdepends.
Like maybe in the moment I'mlike, oh yeah, I feel, I don't
(49:49):
know, I'm feeling more generous.
I really like chatting with thisperson.
Like, cool, I like might want topick up the tab.
Then I would have to check inwith myself and be like, okay,
here's what it says on Yelp.
And, you know, maybe theconversation can stop there
depending on what you want todo, right?
Maybe you don't got to talkabout it because you already
(50:09):
kind of know this is what I wantto do when I get there.
Some other times it's like, oh,I don't know.
I'm not sure.
Like, I'm not sure about thisperson or if I'm ever going to
see them again, like whatever.
So it is more appropriate tobring up like, hey, it's this
much like, you know, is thatokay with you?
(50:30):
And they could say yes or no, orthey could just bounce, I don't
know, dating these days, youknow?
And then depending on that, thenyou could say like, yeah, I was
hoping like, you know, we couldgo Dutch or like, and you know,
and if this isn't like, youknow...
God, it's so weird to be like,if this isn't in your price
(50:51):
range or if this isn't where youwant to eat, like we can go
somewhere else or we could likedo a picnic or something that's
like more affordable, you know?
And then I would kind of closeit up with like, yeah, I mean, I
don't really care where we go.
I just like want to get to knowyou, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (51:06):
Oh, that's sweet.
Yeah.
I do care where we go.
I appreciate it because quitehonestly depending on like what
you want from you know this likeromantic encounter or any like
encounter like you might notwant to like to be honest with
(51:27):
you like if it's a hook up I'dbe like I don't really want to
drop$200 or maybe I do likelet's go bigger go home and like
hook up one night and man wehave a dope story but for other
folks it's like I actually wantto keep this like really chill
and um but like you know thatgoes into also like expressing
(51:52):
up front what your intentionsare and making sure that the
other folks like person orpeople are like consenting into
what you're like what you'relooking for so i feel i i feel
that yeah for sure there's
SPEAKER_03 (52:07):
definitely a lot of steps in between like hey,
here's the price point.
You know what I mean?
Like, it would be weird if it'slike, we just matched on Tinder.
Yo, what's your budget?
That would be so weird.
You know what I mean?
But there's...
Be that birth doll.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (52:25):
I
SPEAKER_03 (52:25):
will be...
SPEAKER_02 (52:26):
Anyway, let me not.
Let me not.
I want to go back to thequestion around harm because I
took...
domestic violence training herein Colorado.
And one of the things I talkedabout is partners using finances
(52:54):
as a way to control therelationship.
So if like only one person hasaccess to the finances and gets
to pick and choose how much theother person or other people
have in the relationship, how isthat a means of like blocking
the, like the ability of thatperson to make decisions if, if
(53:15):
they don't want to be in therelationship anymore?
And it's something that like, Ithink some, like I have, had
heard about before, but then Igot me thinking about like, so
like, this is something that Iwas never raised to like, taught
to like, think about when, like,I was raised like the man will
(53:36):
provide for you, like, like headof the household type of
situation.
And it got me thinking about howdo we need to be talking about
finances before getting inromantic relationships in order
to set the tone of like, leavingshould always be an option.
(53:59):
And I wanna make sure that bothof us feel that that is there in
case we choose to no longer bein this relationship or if one
of us causes a great deal ofharm or even a little bit of
harm and the other people wannaleave.
And so I just wanted to upliftthat there are things that folks
(54:20):
can be doing, looking at if theyhave an IRA or something, there
are spousal IRAs Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(54:47):
in control of the finances andmaking sure that there are
safety rails or like safetyguards for folks to have like
financial agility to leave atsome point.
I feel like it's just likereally important to me now and
something that wasn't before.
(55:09):
And I think you kind of sharedthis idea like in a previous
conversation around likechildren in finances, I think
that was something that came up,like making sure that folks had,
are considering children in thefinances.
Did you wanna share more aboutthat?
SPEAKER_03 (55:27):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, one of the things that,so like there's like a common
piece of advice out thereDepending on your algorithm.
I don't know.
Common.
But like they'll tell parentslike, hey, you can actually put
(55:47):
your kid down as an authorizeduser on your credit card.
And then that kind of booststheir credit score down the line
because, you know, like theywould have credit history and,
you know, just proof thatthey've been like a responsible
parent.
credit card holder for howevermany years like it's one of
(56:08):
those like hacks that um parentslike to use but i've also seen
it happen where parents do thatand then they spend that money
under the kid's name and then itnever gets resolved and then the
kid like you know um is getsinto some deep shit down the
line, you know, like, and it'stotally, and it's not their
(56:32):
fault.
Right.
And a lot of times too, whenthat happens, it's like, um, if
you call your car to car companyand you're like, wait, I'm not
the one that made thesetransactions.
Like it was my parent.
Right.
Um, they'll probably tell youthe only way that you can
dispute this charge is if yousue them, you know?
Um, so this is like, um, kind ofin line with some of the
(56:56):
financial abuse that you weretalking about that happens in
interpersonal, like intimaterelationships, right?
And I want to shout out the workof this organization called Free
From.
They actually support survivorsof gender-based abuse.
(57:21):
yeah, to like help them bounceback.
And they also have a lot ofresearch of like what it
actually takes, you know, forfolks to leave these kinds of
partnerships.
So I would recommend lookinginto that as well.
They have like cash grants forsurvivors.
They help survivors like rebuildfinancially, especially like in
(57:42):
terms of business, you know whatI mean?
Like starting their ownbusiness.
So yeah, I mean, um uh financialabuses it's no joke like it's
really painful and i think umit's a really high statistic i
(58:03):
mean i think i've heardsomething like 92 of um all like
domestic violence uh cases havea financial abuse component to
it um and it's also like whatmakes it hard like really hard
for people to leave right
SPEAKER_02 (58:20):
yeah absolutely um thank you but in
SPEAKER_03 (58:24):
terms of like yeah in terms of like um
conversations that folks need tohave like to set the tone in the
beginning Similar to like thefirst date convo, there's
usually like a bunch of otherstuff that needs to be, like the
foundation needs to be rightbefore, you know, the finance
(58:46):
conversation happens, right?
So like, I don't know, like, ifthere's anything I can
recommend, so to speak, forlike, folks who, you know, want
to avoid that, because it's moreof like, a foundational thing,
right?
But To me, if you're seeing somered flags of...
(59:10):
I feel like the main red flag issome hot and cold, like, I'm
down to pay for you, and laterthey resent you for having paid
for you when they're the onesthat offered, right?
Stuff like that, it's a big redflag.
Yeah, I think...
(59:33):
Oh, honestly, this day and age,I think not tipping is a red
flag.
Oh
SPEAKER_02 (59:39):
my gosh, it's a red flag for just being an asshole.
SPEAKER_03 (59:42):
Exactly, right?
But anyway, there's a lot oflittle signs here and there,
right?
But I feel like the second thatyou see something like that, I
would just say don't, if youcan, don't put yourself in a
position where you're mixingfinances right away.
(01:00:03):
Cause who knows, you know?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
feel that.
Yeah, so these people dating,where did this come from?
But anyway, so we cannot denythat in the U.S.
we are living in an environmentwith heightened threats to our
safety on so many fronts.
What are some of the ways we canincorporate financial
(01:00:27):
preparedness into our safetyplans?
This can be with how we plan toescape or stay in the country,
natural or human-made disasterplanning or plans we make when
someone we are close to harmsus.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:44):
Yeah.
Someone asked me recently, like,is there something you're saying
over and over again given, like,that's like a suggestion you're
giving to everyone given thetimes that we live in?
And I will say please, my lovedones, have at least thousand
(01:01:07):
dollars in your savings and likeprioritize that over paying back
any debt okay um ideally athousand dollars in cash because
if you need to like bounce andgo somewhere or if the power
goes out in you know in town orin the city that you live in and
you know folks aren't going tobe able to process like credit
(01:01:30):
cards and stuff right like
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:32):
we're
SPEAKER_03 (01:01:32):
going to need to have something to like buy
things with so I would I wouldstart with that for sure and
then you know I understand thatwe're living in a time where the
cost of living is so high andthere's not always a lot of
(01:01:54):
extra at the end of the payperiod, you know, to get us
through.
And I would just say, saving andplanning for disasters, like
just, I know there's like a, ah,I gotta do this right now.
(01:02:15):
But like, I would really justencourage like, habits over, you
know, the big wins and the biglosses type of thing, right?
Like, even if it's, like,$5 amonth, like, it's something, you
know?
Like, I really think it's aboutthe consistency and not, like,
how much you put in it all atonce, you know?
(01:02:38):
So, yeah, even, like, I seepeople all the time, like, oh,
yeah, I...
charged hundreds of dollars tomy credit card because i was
doing some you know shopping fordisaster planning and having my
go bag ready like cool yeah iunderstand and also it's time to
(01:03:01):
really like like at the end ofthe day if you really only have
your backpack Do you need them?
Can you carry that much stuff?
First of all, you know, likelet's like, let's really think,
think it through versus just,you know, panicking.
Right.
I'm like, I know I can.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:19):
REI.
It's going to be terrible.
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:25):
Sorry.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:26):
Yeah.
But you
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:27):
know, I think, um, also like, uh, thinking ahead, I
mean, um, I will just mentionlike by the time that we
recorded this, the folks in Gazahave been, you know, in a
(01:03:48):
man-made famine for like fivemonths now and starving.
And then, you know, this hasbeen going on since October,
2023.
Right.
And I think of like the waysthat, you know, like the
contraptions people are makingto filter water.
Like, I mean, they, you know,they didn't have to go to REI to
like find the thing.
(01:04:09):
Right.
So like if you get in themindset of like, okay, shit is
going to go down eventually andI'm really going to need my like
ingenuity and like working withwhat's around, then I think have
that energy also when you'reputting together the go bag.
Right.
Like what do I already have inmy house that can go in here?
Who can I call when I'm missingsomething?
(01:04:32):
I don't know.
Like a, like a piece of rope ora carabiner or something.
Come on.
There's so many lesbians outthere who will have the
carabiner that you need.
Like you don't have to go buyone.
You know what I mean?
Like, like as much as it's likethe stuff, it's also the mindset
that we're going to be in, whichis like, make do with what you
have and like phone a friend,you know, like who are you going
(01:04:57):
to call when you don't have athing.
Right.
So
SPEAKER_02 (01:04:59):
yeah.
UNKNOWN (01:05:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:01):
Absolutely.
And yeah, this is not todiminish what folks are
experiencing in Gaza.
It's an absolute genocide.
And I think it speaks to thefact that they had to create all
these things from rubble aboutgoing back to the sense of...
(01:05:25):
leaning into community andwhat's like already there.
And it's simply not enough.
It's simply not enough.
But when I think about myselfand like how I was really
scrappy as a poor kid.
I was really scrappy because mymom was not buying me all the
clothes I wanted.
So I'd be painting things andcreating the skinny jeans out of
(01:05:50):
bell bottoms from the thriftstore because my mom would
refuse to buy me skinny jeans.
I was very inventive and itcracks me up now how much I
don't use my ingenuity I'm justlike, I'll go buy it.
I'll just go buy it.
I was like, you know how to fixthis.
Just fix it.
(01:06:10):
So I definitely hear what you'resaying.
Yeah.
And I guess to close us out, canyou give us a couple of people
that you continue to learn fromand suggest we check out?
Thanks for that drop of freedomfrom.
(01:06:30):
And then also, where can we findyou?
What's happening for you?
Any events coming up?
Maybe they will have alreadypassed by, but she'll still
share.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Let's see, who am I?
continuing to learn from um ohum there's a poet that i really
love his name is ross gay um heactually shares a birthday with
my grandma which i think isreally special august 1st leo's
(01:07:06):
leo's rise up um
SPEAKER_02 (01:07:09):
don't tell all the leos that we've done the whole
last thing okay i love you soleo's wit
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:16):
um yeah and he um he writes about joy um he has a
book of poetry called thecatalog of unabashed gratitude
um really lovely book um He alsohas a book where he, like, the
(01:07:39):
Book of Delights, he wrote,like, a little mini essay about
delight every day and, like, putit together in a book.
And he kind of found, like, themore that you seek it out, the
more that you're like, wow,things are delightful, you know?
And I think he does a reallygood job, too, of, like, the
(01:08:01):
purpose of joy is not to, like,spiritually bypass, like, all
the awful things that arehappening.
in our world right now, youknow?
But that joy and sorrow actuallygo hand in hand, you know?
And they can be experiencedtogether.
So yeah, I've been reading a lotof his work lately to keep me on
(01:08:26):
the up, because it's dark timesright now.
Yeah, it's wild times right now.
So...
Definitely would recommend him.
Yeah, and I continue to learnfrom the one and only James
(01:08:48):
Baldwin up here.
I saw that
SPEAKER_02 (01:08:50):
up there.
I was like,
SPEAKER_03 (01:08:51):
oh, okay.
Yeah, this is his biography,which was written by a friend of
his who also helped him organizehis notes and transcribe stuff
and honestly, I think helped himbudget.
So I'm like, okay, work.
Spoiler alert.
He was always, you know, I mean,artists, like there's never,
(01:09:17):
there's never enough reallysupport for artists.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And then where to find me?
I'm on Instagram at queer andtrans wealth.
You can also find, check us outon Substack
queerandtranswealth.substack.comand yeah on the site
(01:09:42):
queerandtranswealth.org ifyou're interested in our
services
SPEAKER_02 (01:09:51):
well thank you so much Leo again for being on the
podcast this has been a lovelyconversation so thank you Thank
you so much for watching thisepisode.
I love you so much.
I'm kissing.
I'm kissing consensually.
(01:10:12):
If you want that, I will ask youbefore kissing you.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the podcast.
I encourage you to meander ondown to the description link
below to share this episode, tipthe guests, and follow all the
magical folks that made thispodcast possible.
Deep gratitude to all of you.
(01:10:34):
Even patting my myself a littlebit on the back right now labor
of love labor of love latergator and may you walk with the
ancestors peace out 22,000 timesa day 22,000 times a day 22,000
(01:10:57):
times a day 22,000 times a day
Ah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Hello fellow weird and wild ones.
It has been a minute.
So much has evolved and changedabout your lovely host and me,
(01:02):
Goddess, and Sunseed communitysince season four of the
podcast.
And I am stoked to share some ofthe dopest folks I've met, and
some of the been in communitywith, and have learned from
along the way in season five ofthe SSC podcast.
So grab your drink, get yoursnacky snacks, and gather your
(01:24):
homies for the end times.
End of what?
I'm really not sure, but Ireally hope it's fascism.
But I digress, differentconversation.
Let's get on with the show.
You are inspiring.
(01:45):
You are inspiring.
You are inspiring at least22,000 times a day.
So inspiring.
He's so inspiring.
Yay, Leo.
Thank you.
So, so much for being a part ofthe Sunseas Community Podcast.
(02:08):
I'm really honored to have youon today.
So I'm going to go ahead andread your bio.
So Leo Dehe is ananti-capitalist, financial
coach, and educator.
Oh, yes.
Listen, I was like, wait, did Ihit record?
(02:29):
And literally I heard it sayrecord.
SPEAKER_03 (02:32):
It's
SPEAKER_02 (02:32):
okay.
I might keep this in becauseit's just so
SPEAKER_03 (02:36):
weird.
Listen, there's a Mercuryretrograde in Leo.
So I've been, I feel like I'vebeen like, okay, slow, steady.
Just let whatever happens, justlet it happen.
I am
SPEAKER_02 (02:52):
so weak.
Oh my gosh.
Okay, I'll go.
Okay, let me back up, let meback up.
This is, this is totally stayingin.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Work.
SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
Leo Daigie is an anti-capitalist financial coach
and educator, independentjournalist, and founder of Queer
and Trans Wealth.
I love that bio.
So Leo, how we do this podcastis we start with kind of like a
(03:31):
check-in question to warm us up.
And then we And so the questionis, who are you bringing into
the space with you today?
Ooh.
SPEAKER_03 (03:55):
Who?
As in, like, an ancestor orsomebody?
SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
It can be an ancestor.
It can be folks that are stillon this plane.
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
Cool, cool.
Well, I'm going to start with awhat, because I brought my Hello
Kitty fake Stanley mug.
Oh! it's so cute it's rhinestonethere's some ice and fear so you
probably hear it
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
wait did you get that custom made
SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
no actually my partner got it at a first
bargain like one of those likealmost like a 99 cent store but
stuff is more like five bucksyou know like yeah
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
oh my gosh so it's my favorite
SPEAKER_03 (04:38):
thing
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
I'm loving this.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
And yeah, in terms of who I'm bringing here, um,
you know, I've just been doing alot of research about, um, one
of our elders who just passed.
Um, her name is Jewel ThaisWilliams.
Um, she, uh, She ran a nightclubhere in LA.
(05:05):
It was one of the first Blackqueer nightclubs, and she owned
it for 42 years.
And yeah, she did a lot ofincredible work, used the
profits from the nightclub tostart a Chinese medicine clinic
in the neighborhood so folks canget health care for free,
started a housing project forwomen and children affected by
(05:29):
HIV.
and yeah just all around goodpeople and so i've been i feel
like i've been speaking with hera lot and also speaking with a
lot of people who loved her umspeaking with a lot of like
nightlife folks who are inspiredby her so she's she's really
(05:50):
with me today
SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
Well, may Miss Jill rest with the ancestors.
And it sounds like she created awhole legacy of just, like, love
and care and joy while she washere on this plane.
So I hope that that continues.
I know it will.
SPEAKER_03 (06:10):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Thanks, Leo.
I think I'm bringing into thisspace with me...
my ancestors that were likewhich I think was all of them
but a lot of my ancestors whowere like figuring out what
wealth and abundance means tothem and like divesting from
(06:35):
working for other people andlike I want to have my own
business and what that meant andalso like my grandpa was a
hunter and like back in the andI think maybe still now like
that was how like my family likeoffset being poor is like by
(06:59):
hunting and there's a quote andI'm gonna oh my gosh I can't
believe I'm forgetting the nameof this elder slash ancestor but
like she talks about how likenot feeling poor when it came to
food because they always foundwhat they needed on the land and
And that quote just, like,really sung to me about, like,
(07:21):
what we consider as poor, whatdo we consider as wealth.
And this idea is, like, of,like, my belly was full and it
was full of really good thingsand nourishing things.
And I kind of, like, hold thatwith me.
If I can, like, I'm going toremember her name and put it in
the description.
But anyway, yeah, that's who I'mcarrying with me.
SPEAKER_03 (07:47):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
So providing context for how we met, we met at
Funders for LGBTQ Issues 2025Funding Forward Conference.
And I think you came to sit atlike the breakfast table I was
at and you were rocking like thedopest ass, like one piece.
(08:08):
Like I, it was everything.
Wait, no, no.
Was it, you're like, was it twopiece print?
It was...
It was a two-piece print, I'mpretty sure.
Yes.
And then were you wearing aone-piece some other
SPEAKER_03 (08:20):
time?
Another time I was wearing ajumpsuit.
I do love a monochromesituation.
Yes!
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Oh my gosh.
So basically, iconic outfitsthroughout.
UNKNOWN (08:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:30):
Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (08:31):
We love.
So that's how the conversationgot started.
I got so excited when you toldme about, you know, your passion
work.
And yeah, so I'm excited for youto be here.
Yeah, thank
SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
you for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
Yeah, you are absolutely welcome.
So let's get started there.
So how did queer and transwealth come to be?
SPEAKER_03 (08:56):
Yeah.
it's an interesting story of howI got here for sure.
Cause I will say, you know, um,like I went to art school in
college and like, um, was alwayslike painting and writing and
doing all these creative things.
And never in my life was I likeone day I'm going to be looking
(09:18):
at people's budgets eight hoursa day.
Like never, never did I thinkthat, you know?
Um, but what happened was, um, Iwas hired as, um, a journalist
in a newsroom to cover personalfinance stories.
I did that for about threeyears.
And, you know, I didn't, again,like before that I was writing
(09:43):
about like sex toys and makeupand fashion, you know, like, so
I think like the skills that ledthemselves to like, that led the
skills that led themselves tobecoming, you know, a personal
finance journalist was like, Iknow how to make people feel
comfortable enough to get themto open up about a really
(10:06):
intimate topic such as finance,right?
And just get them to talk aboutthat stuff.
And I really liked that aspectof it.
I just fell in love, honestly,with the folks that I was
interviewing.
I got to write some storiesabout the...
(10:26):
positive effects of, like,access to abortion for women and
folks who were able to receivethem and what that did for their
life and their sense of agency.
I got to speak to families whowere affected by anti-trans
legislation and, you know, justhaving to pick up and move
across the country with nowarning and, like, no savings,
(10:48):
usually, and having to go intodebt to be able to do those
things and keep their familiessafe and, you know, for them to
be able to access healthcare aswell, right?
So yeah, this is what I wasdoing.
And this is also primarily whereI got my training and how I
started to understand like, oh,here's like, I wrote some
(11:08):
stories like that.
And of course, there were some,you know, here's some rich guy
and how he managed his millionsof dollars, you know, so like,
this is sort of like where I gotmy training and how I got to see
like how like all the differentapproaches that people take in
terms of budgeting.
And, you know, when I was doingthat job, I just noticed like
(11:31):
none of the folks in the queerand trans community were really
reading my work.
And I was so frustrated becauseI was like, no, we need to know,
like we need to know this stuff,you know?
And even for me, like knowingthis stuff was like improving my
life, you know?
So I was like, okay, let me havemy own thing on Instagram.
so that I can begin to likeshare the stories that I'm
(11:52):
writing from a queer and translens, right?
And when I did that, I wasbeginning to get the response
that I wanted and I wasbeginning to reach the people
who I really wanted to speak to,which is like folks who never
got financial literacy in theirlives, you know?
And so, you know, from there, Ialways thought it would just be
(12:15):
content, to be honest.
I always thought I would just bemaking my little videos and
writing my little articles.
But like, over and over again, Ijust kept getting requests like,
hey, can you start coaching me?
And so I got some training inthat as well.
And yeah, and then started offfrom there.
I've been doing this full timefor like two years now.
(12:35):
So yeah.
UNKNOWN (12:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mark.
Yes.
And I love that this startedwith hearing other people's
stories and forming thoserelationships and being like,
this is something that I want toshare with more people and be
working on with other people.
(12:58):
folks that's awesome um also iused to i was in journalism
school as well that is so funnyi like i mean we yeah like i we
use it but it's not like you'relike i do not consider myself a
journalist anymore but i justtakes me back to journalism
school and like i i was afashion um journalist for global
(13:23):
panorama which no longer existsoh wow like I did a story on
cafe Cardi's as me and my friendCarla, because it's light
enough.
You know, you can just likebring with you and wear in a
cafe, but you can take itanywhere.
So cafe Cardi season.
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
Work.
SPEAKER_02 (13:43):
So thank you for that.
Last from the past.
And I, and I love that likethrough that of your, of your
story.
So I, Um, your two year plusyears of doing this, how, um,
what have you encountered inyour work that has challenged
you to unlearn ideas you oncehad around wealth?
SPEAKER_03 (14:04):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I had this, I, Ilike knew this logically going
in cause, um, you know, like,this is true, like, everyone's
definition of wealth is reallydifferent, right?
But, like, only at the secondyear mark has it really sunk
(14:27):
into my body, like, oh, right,like, everyone's definition of
wealth is different, like, forme, for example, what I define
as wealth these days is, like,my time, and, you know, and
having clear space on mycalendar and having days where
like, absolutely no meetings.
I'm just spending my days likereading and researching and
(14:49):
writing, you know, like, or not,or just, you know, doing my
laundry and like watching TV,you know, like vegging out, like
those are, like, that's kind ofmy marker for wealth is like,
how, like, can I set up myschedule and my finances in a
way that, you know, I only needto work so many days out of the
(15:09):
week, right?
um that's that's true for mehowever some other people are
like no like for me mydefinition of wealth is that my
work reaches like you know asmany people as possible and
which means like them you knowworking more hours and um doing
a lot more traveling and likenetworking and meeting people
(15:31):
right um some people definewealth as um you know, having,
not being super materialistic ina way, but just having like a
home and like two cars and, youknow, like some people do have
like a more traditionaldefinition.
(15:53):
And in my practice, I've beenworking really hard at being
like, okay, if someone's talkingabout their thing, that's their
thing.
And I can't be inserting what Ithink they need to be doing
almost, you know, because Ireally let folks like lead with
their definition of wealth andwe kind of plan around that, you
(16:14):
know?
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
Yeah.
You bring up a good pointthough, because even in your
definition of, for the longest,when I thought about wealth and
abundance, I thought immediatelymoney and what money can give
you.
But even in your definition of,or, like, how you apply it with,
like, your time and how you wantto be spending your time, that
(16:39):
actually does equate to, like,how, like, we are paid for our
time.
Like, there is this through lineof, like, and, like, the most
rich folks, they often have morefree time.
And I think we kind of, like,forget that or don't, like,
(16:59):
always know that of, like, Iforgot what's like the 80-20
rule or like how you like howyou spend your time working
should basically work for youlike less time working but more
time for free like for foryourself but what you're saying
(17:22):
is also like for some folksmaybe working more is like how
they get to their version ofwealth which i think is
completely valid too
SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
totally and this is the thing though like goddess
there are people who make likestacks of money and they still
feel like i gotta go i gotta domy which is like cool, good for
them.
Like, I know I'm not built thatway, to
SPEAKER_02 (17:51):
be honest.
Yeah, couldn't be me, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:53):
Right.
But like, you know, it sort ofdepends.
Like some folks, like, well,I'll be specific.
Some capitalists are like, yes,money for the sake of money,
right?
But there are folks on the left,let's say, where it's like, Yes,
(18:14):
I do need money to live and I'mmaking enough money, but also
like the work that I do is soimportant that I want, you know,
as many people as possible tolike know about it.
I want to help as many people aspossible, right?
With the work that I'm doing,which is like cool to them.
That is their definition ofwealth.
And I love that, you know, Ithink, man, I always feel like
(18:41):
when I come into sessions withfolks, like, Like I'm a colossal
killjoy, you know?
But like, cause like to me, whenI think about, when I sit with
my definition of wealth, as inlike having my time back, I just
have to make peace with the factthat I cannot help everybody,
you know?
Like there is a physical limitto the number of people who are
(19:02):
going to like read my work andlike use that to, you know, help
them like budget and, whatever,there's a limited amount of
people that I can see one-on-oneor in groups or couples.
And I have made my peace withthat.
I'm like, great.
To me, I'm almost like, I justsay thank you to the ancestors
(19:26):
for the fact that there is astopping point.
Whereas sometimes when you,especially if you work for
yourself, there's this feelingof like, I need to eat like
forever, like for the rest of mytime on earth.
And therefore I need to like doas much as I can, right?
And like, it's a differentmindset than like somebody whose
(19:47):
definition is more like, oh, Iwant to help as many people as
possible.
They then have this mindset oflike, my lifestyle like is going
to be there's a certain cap towhat my lifestyle is also.
Right.
Cause they're going to spendtheir time instead of like, let
me maximize every wealthopportunity.
(20:08):
You know, like that's not theirmindset either.
Right.
So it's like, cool.
Like they, for them, the mindsetis like, I'm going to have to
accept and compromise that, youknow, the apartment that I live
in is like, this is as big as itgets, you know?
Which is like, that's also okay,right?
Like,
SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
it's just
SPEAKER_03 (20:27):
different ways of looking at it.
And I'm even thinking aboutlike, you have brought in your
ancestors who like, didn't wantto work for other folks, right?
I think it comes with anacceptance of like, okay, being
self-employed is like, thenumber...
(20:50):
the amount of like work I'mwilling to put in in the
beginning, not just in likedirect, you know, sales or
anything like that, but morelike the networking that maybe
it pays off like years later.
You know what I mean?
Like, like being willing to bemore flexible about your concept
of time versus like, okay, onehour in$30.
(21:14):
You know what I mean?
Like,
SPEAKER_02 (21:17):
so
SPEAKER_03 (21:18):
yeah, I'm, I'm learning a lot, like, it's just
sinking into my, I mean, Ialways knew this, you know, but
it's really just sinking inlike, oh, yeah, everyone's
definition really is different.
And also, there's differentcompromises everyone needs to
make within that definition,right?
SPEAKER_02 (21:37):
That's a good point.
Cause yeah, I think I'm like, Istrive to find this sweet spot
between like, I don't want to bea martyr, but I do want to work
for something that is inalignment with my beliefs.
I also don't want to be someonewho is over consuming and taking
(21:59):
more than what I need.
Like, where's the sweet spot?
Cause I do want to live well.
SPEAKER_03 (22:04):
Totally.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:07):
very sweet life.
I want that for all of us.
So I, I definitely hear whatyou're saying.
And then that idea of like,there are certain trade-offs
because we both work forourselves.
And there are like, I had totrade, not had to, but I've
(22:30):
redefined what it means tocreate like a schedule and like
admin because like, by workingfor myself, that's something
that now I have the opportunityto curate, which is a part of my
practices of like, okay, if youneed to cure, if you need to do
the admin tasks, if you need tofill out the taxes and all of
those things, how can you dothat in a way that aligns with
(22:52):
how you want to be feeling inyour day-to-day life and within
your work.
But that was a trade-off forhaving someone else do it while
also working for someone else'sdream.
SPEAKER_03 (23:03):
And
SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
I will take that trade-off at this
SPEAKER_03 (23:07):
point.
Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
Yeah, so that's a very good point.
A lot of the work you do isaround supporting folks.
So like, yes, with budgeting,but like how to look at their
community overall as like a partof their wealth plan.
(23:30):
So what ways of building andsupporting our communities have
you learned since starting thiswork?
SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
Oh my God, so many things.
I mean, I've learned...
to never underestimate when afriend has been like, Leo, I see
you're going through it.
Can I take you to lunch?
It's so simple, but it's sopowerful.
And it's something that I'mtrying to do this coming Friday.
(24:06):
july 25th for the people in thefuture um diana ross is playing
at the hollywood bowl i know andso i bought me and my partner
some tickets and i was like letme buy one extra because i know
some friends who would be likewow like a ticket to go see
diana ross it would be so funyou know what i mean like like
(24:28):
everyone's going throughsomething right now i mean it's
wild time so i was like yeah letme just get it and like To me,
like, how fun, you know?
Yes!
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
I love this.
There's something, like, in bothexamples.
In one, a friend saw you havinga tough time and was just
like...
Let me take you out to lunch.
Let me get you lunch.
And then the other one, you werelike, I know there's someone in
my life who would really, thiswould bring someone I care about
(25:01):
a lot of joy.
And so let me just like getthis.
And I think in both, there'sthis spaciousness within where
you're at.
in your version of wealth whereyou have capacity to actually,
first of all, see when someoneis in need and have the capacity
(25:23):
to show up for them and not haveit stress you out.
That feels like wealth.
That feels like abundance.
Yes.
I want to be able to support myloved ones, but have it not
stress me out and have it bewith ease for the both of us in
little things like you know, Ihave a ticket for you.
(25:45):
Just come fam to like, you know,you're having a tough time or
like you're going through, youknow, becoming a parent,
whatever it might be.
And be like, let me offer thisto you and like, have it, have
it not be like such a earthquakeof a situation.
(26:07):
I love it.
I mean,
SPEAKER_03 (26:08):
that's the thing too, right?
Like, something that happenswhen folks get really clear
about their numbers and likewhat money's coming in, what
money's going out is like folkswill then develop the skill also
to say, hey, I can't affordthat, but here's an alternative
that I can't afford.
And like, I would still love tohang out with you.
(26:29):
Right.
I would still love to spend timewith you.
So like it's a specificity andasking for help, you know, and
also beginning to kind of breakthe stigma of like, well, we
can't talk about money.
It's like weird to talk aboutmoney, you know, but like, like,
you know, I can't tell you howmany times I've been able to say
like to a friend, I got$40,like, you know, for this, for
(26:54):
this whole hangout that we'resupposed to have, like, how can
we make the most of the$40, youknow?
And this is something that myclients are finding they can do
as well.
And this is like, like one ofthe common things that I see is,
you know, a lot of people willsay like, oh, I'm spending too
much money on food and like takeout.
(27:15):
So sometimes we spend a wholesession just getting really
clear on breaking food down intothree categories, which is
basically groceries, you know,your Postmates, DoorDash, all
that stuff, like almost likeconvenience eating, like
decision fatigue type of eating.
(27:35):
And then like, what is theactual like social, you know,
connecting with friends type ofdining out.
Right.
Um, so we break that down andthey always have this feeling of
like, well, I can't like affordto hang out with my friends
anymore.
I'm like, actually you can, ifyou just shift the like decision
fatigue budget a little bit moretowards social, you know?
(27:58):
And yeah, like really, um,clarifies a lot of things, which
is like, I do have space toconnect with people, you know?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (28:07):
Oh, I love this.
And I, I appreciate thebreakdown of like groceries,
like, like decision fatigue,buying a food versus like
social, like as someone who'sneurodivergent, like I, for a
while there, I didn't havecapacity and still don't a lot
(28:27):
of days to plan my own meals andcook for myself.
Like that energy needed to go toa different part of my day to
day.
And so I was meal prepping.
It just so happens I stopped,not meal prepping, but like
buying those like pre-mademeals.
It just got to the point where Iwas like, oh my gosh this shit
has like no flavor I can't eatthis anymore but it was
(28:50):
important for me to be like feelcomfortable with saying like
yeah like um I don't havecapacity to buy groceries and
make my own meals this issomething I need to budget for
and prioritize as a part ofmeeting my accessibility needs
um like, and not feel shame withthat.
(29:13):
And so like going back to yourother example of like saying
like, Hey, I only got$40 forthis.
Like I, that is so importantbecause I think we all have
people in our lives who havedifferent incomes, have
different things that they'reprioritizing with their money.
And like, that shouldn't preventus from being able to hang out
(29:34):
with them.
Like we can hang out on$0, butwe can hang out on 400.
Like,
SPEAKER_03 (29:40):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (29:42):
Well, like, let's, like, meet and meet in the
middle somewhere.
Yeah.
And, like, getting rid of thatstigma of acknowledging what we
have financial capacity to do, Ithink is important, too.
SPEAKER_03 (30:01):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:03):
Yeah, I feel that.
Are any of...
the ways in which you like pairwealth with like community care
and like support connected tohow your blood or chosen family
have historically shown up foreach other or even ancestrally?
SPEAKER_03 (30:23):
I'm just going to giggle.
You know what?
I'm doing this new thing.
Like I realized that my brain istrained to like, let's linger on
the, you know, the bad stuff,the bad memories, the like harm
that has been caused.
And I'm trying to like retrainmy brain to remember like, no,
(30:46):
what were the good things thatthis person, that person, you
know, they brought into my life.
And something I've been,something I really appreciate
that I grew up witnessing, mymom is like the most social
person I know.
Like she is, She always had,like, a ton of friends, and I
(31:11):
really admire the way that she,like, kept up with her
friendships.
So she used to, when she would,like, she would just have, like,
cleaning on a Saturday orThursday night or something, or,
like, a bunch of dishes or abunch of laundry to fold, and
every time she would do that,she would call a friend and
just, like, you know, like,yeah, what's going on with you?
(31:34):
Like, just checking in to sayhi.
Yeah.
That I really appreciate and issomething I feel like I do now.
And you know what's good aboutthat is I think a lot of us
maybe through social media orthrough like the movies or
something, like we have thisconception that when you finally
(31:54):
ask for help for something, it'slike this dramatic thing and
like, you know, trumpets playand like whatever, right?
And like someone has to come andlike save you when you're in
this like insanely like hardplace.
And to me, like this practicethat I saw my mom doing, it's
like a very, like I'm checkingin with you on a consistent
(32:16):
basis so that if there wasanything that we needed to bring
up that's awkward, like, youknow, there's kind of this like,
it's cool, I'll still call youtomorrow or like next week or
whatever, right?
So I really appreciate that.
And I think her, my mom's thingis during the, when the pandemic
(32:39):
started, she and her siblingswere, They started to call each
other every day.
One of her siblings lives in NewYork.
My mom lives in New Jersey.
And the rest of them live in thePhilippines, right?
So they would coordinate.
(33:00):
They would get on FaceTime everyday and they would pray the
rosary.
SPEAKER_02 (33:03):
And
SPEAKER_03 (33:05):
they still do that now.
Are they asking each other forhelp on their real problems?
I don't know.
But like, you know, I...
to me it's something that I'veapplied like the consistency of
checking up on people so thatwhen you do need help it's not
like this dramatic like oh mygod you gotta come bail me out
like you know like where it'slike I can sort of like hey I
(33:29):
need I just need to talk throughthis thing like cool and then
like the week after that it'slike oh yeah like do you have
something you want you know whatI mean like it's more measured
than like okay, like now I'mgetting evicted, which is like,
people do go through that.
I think it's just hard when, youknow, folks aren't communicating
(33:53):
along the way, like this is whatI need to make rent and like
keep my debts current so that,
SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
you
SPEAKER_03 (33:58):
know, not to, I know that's a really tough experience
not to like put anything else onfolks' plate when they're going
through that.
But like, yeah, it's justsomething I think about, you
know,
SPEAKER_02 (34:10):
yeah like the only time hearing from someone is
like when they're going throughsomething um really heavy and
like if we had more you knowcommunication with this person
maybe we would have known beforeit went too far and could have
(34:30):
supported sooner or even justlike set up the relationship so
that it's not awkward talkingabout really hard shit Yeah,
absolutely.
I've never seen a picture ofyour mom.
Three women.
I don't know how many.
(34:50):
Getting together to pray a rose.
I don't know what that wouldlook like.
It's cute.
It's giving.
SPEAKER_03 (34:57):
Yeah, it's
SPEAKER_02 (34:58):
sweet.
Those are really sweet.
They're...
In your story, it also remindsme of going back to a previous
response you had around payingfor your friend's ticket or a
friend noticing you're having ahard day of...
(35:25):
Abundance for me, part of it islike having a life where it
feels like I have enough spaceto actually think about people.
Yeah.
And I don't mean that in adismissive way.
Like, I truly love all the,like, you know, my chosen
(35:45):
family.
But I also acknowledge that whenwe get busy, it's harder for us
to check in with each other onthe small things.
And so then it just feels likewe go farther and farther apart
simply because we're trying tolike...
keep up with this likecapitalist grind that we don't
(36:07):
even want to be on in the firstplace.
And so for me, a button, I like,I remember a time where I was
working for myself and also likereally intentionally spacious
with my time.
And I had so much more, I waslike checking on folks more
(36:29):
often and, And they would belike, I have to go do this,
this, that.
I'm like, darn, you seem hellabusy.
I don't want that.
But it's good to see you.
And now I'm working back towardthat.
How do I create thatspaciousness again?
(36:50):
Because I think that there's awealth in that in itself of
having enough time to...
to just tap in with folks yeahabout like even like small shit
it doesn't have to be this heylove you gonna drop by like some
I don't know I don't know whyI'd be dropping by I
SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
mean I'll say this I feel like I've like some of my
clients are like just theraddest people ever like I've
seen people maybe it's like apartnered couple and they're
like living alone and theirexpenses are really high and
they decided you know what we'rejust gonna move into a different
apartment with like two otherfriends which is a little more
(37:35):
non-traditional right but likeover time it's still that like
we gotta stay tapped in so thatwe can figure out who we want to
live with if that is like achange that we want to make
right I have some clients whoare also um, this is really
cool, actually, like some folksthat I've met, um, who are
(37:56):
stewards of a susu fund.
SPEAKER_02 (37:59):
Oh, I don't know.
Okay.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (38:01):
Yeah.
And you know, for the listenerout there, we'll just describe,
um, a susu fund is like everyoneputs in, you know, a certain
amount of money.
And then, um, I think eachmonth, um, on a depending on how
many people are in there, likeeach month somebody gets to take
(38:23):
like a payout from the fund,right?
And then like whoever gets thepayout, it kind of rotates or
sometimes it depends on whoeverlike needs it the most in that
moment, right?
But yeah, it's the idea of likea collective savings kind of a
thing.
(38:44):
I hope I'm describing thatright, but this is my, this is
my understanding of it.
And, you know, like things, Ifeel like we often romanticize,
like, this is how, like, look atthis amazing collective savings
that, you know, these, thisgroup of folks have built, but
(39:04):
like, that starts with liketrust, like conversations that
build trust and, you know, evenactions that build trust, you
know, like, you know, do youshow up on time, you know, or
like, it's cool.
Not everyone gets to, you know,I mean, I understand CP time,
(39:26):
like Filipino time, like to, Iget it.
But like, even like, you know,do you pick up the phone when I
call you kind of thing?
Do you answer, you know, likestuff like that, it really adds
up into like, can i trust youand then based on that trust can
we build an economic systemtogether that is like you know
(39:51):
serves us a lot more than likethese capitalist systems little
by little
SPEAKER_02 (39:56):
yeah yeah absolutely um and that's the whole word
around like feeling so like,stretched thin with your time
that you're, like, showing uplate and things, and, like,
yeah, CP time is a thing.
I have my own thoughts about,but I, like, for me personally,
I will speak, like, I actuallydon't like the feeling of being
(40:19):
rushed and having to go from oneplace to another or feeling,
like, when I'm with people Icare about, I can't fully be
present because I'm so worriedabout trying to get to the next
thing or other things are on mymind.
It doesn't feel like what I,like a life that I want to, like
a feeling that I wanna have on aconsistent basis.
(40:39):
And I'm so excited you broughtup SUSU funds.
Cause yeah, like myunderstanding, like, so SUSU
funds are like traditionallylike, Black folks started that,
but a lot of cultures have theirown versions of these.
Yeah.
koreans have like kyeongmaekyeongmai sorry i'm like korean
(41:01):
like is it am i saying thatright but sorry if i'm
butchering it but it was it waslike similar um and that was
like how uh like koreanbusinesses um and home ownership
was able to happen in umcalifornia like years back so
there's there's differentversions of these and i think
(41:24):
it's really cool when like westart bringing these back and
applying them and likereinventing them to what
abundance might mean for usbecause maybe it doesn't mean
like home ownership or it mightbut like home ownership or like
having a business you know withthe like having a family with a
white picket fence but likecreating like a collective
(41:45):
house.
Like what could it look like forthat?
So I appreciate that.
So I'm going to take us into alittle break.
And again, y'all, please do notskip over the next 60 seconds.
These are dope ass organizationsthat I support and care about.
So please give them a listen andwe will meet you after the
break.
SPEAKER_00 (42:04):
I'm Marquesa Tucker-Harris, Executive
Director with the AfricanAmerican Roundtable in
Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
ArtsVision is a joyful politicalhome for Black people to thrive
in liberated and interconnectedcommunities.
Our mission at the AfricanAmerican Roundtable is to
organize, nurture, and transformBlack leaders to build power in
service of Black liberation.
(42:25):
We get to do such amazing workhere in the city of Milwaukee
alongside residents.
We'd love for you to learn moreabout our work.
Visit us at aartmke.org.
all
SPEAKER_02 (42:37):
right welcome back so let's get back into more
questions it's so funny there'sno pause like i'm gonna create
the pause but there's no pausein this cover anyway sorry
that's back and shit um So wetalked a bit about how
(42:58):
rethinking wealth can help usstrengthen our communities, but
what are some ways that financesor other parts of wealth can be
used to enact harm in our
SPEAKER_03 (43:06):
relationships?
Yeah, yeah.
I wanna ask you a question,situational question.
Has there ever been a time whereyou've been like stressed about
money And then, you know, maybelike an hour later, you have to
go meet someone.
(43:26):
You've just like opened youraccounts and you're like, oh,
shit.
And then like an hour later,you're supposed to meet someone,
but maybe you're not that close.
And then that stress kind ofbleeds into whatever like lunch
you were having.
Right.
Is that something that's everhappened to you?
SPEAKER_02 (43:44):
Yeah, I think so.
I think just overall, justhaving that feeling like, oh my
gosh, shit, I'm poor.
Where's the food going to comefrom?
Yeah, absolutely.
Definitely bled into how Ishowed up.
SPEAKER_03 (43:57):
Totally.
I mean, I hope when folks listento this, they're like, oh yeah,
shit, that has happened to metoo.
But especially in romanticrelationships or platonic ones
where maybe you live with yourroommate who you love very much,
Yeah, I mean, this kind of thingjust happens over and over and
(44:19):
over again, like on a moreintimate scale than like someone
random you're about to havelunch with, you know?
And I think that it snowballs ina way that people like don't
even understand how they gotthere, you know?
So for example, sometimes I workwith couples where like, it's
(44:42):
their first time kind of showingeach other like, here's what's
going on under the hood or like,you know, here is how much I
spend on massages every month,right?
And they like, it's almost likethat Spider-Man meme where
they're pointing at each otherlike, whoa, like, you know,
and...
Thanks
SPEAKER_02 (45:03):
for bringing Spider-Man into this.
SPEAKER_03 (45:05):
Yeah, just like realizing like, oh, wow, like,
that's what's going on.
But then before that, it waskind of like, okay, there's all
this tension.
We don't understand why.
And it's kind of because folksdon't understand how to have
those conversations and havethat transparency in those
relationships, where they cantalk about things without like,
(45:26):
kind of projecting trauma alongwith like just the number of
like, oh, this is what I spenton.
It becomes like, well, you spentthis on that.
And meanwhile, I'm saving, youknow, like it becomes like a
really tense thing that happens,right?
(45:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (45:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:52):
Just like the feeling like uncomfortable or
like resistance to sharingwhat's happening.
Like, as you said, under thehood financially, because it
might change, like you think itmight change the way, like, you
know, your romantic partner orother, like look at you.
(46:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
This like, I guess this isbefore the relationship gets
going but honestly I have alwaysbeen and this is probably off
topic but I've always struggledwith like how to bring up paying
for the meal when you're datinglike there's just I know it's
(46:37):
tied to like some type offinancial trauma there and I'm
still trying to work out like Iwant to be radical about this
but like I still just like yeahyeah I don't know.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:54):
If I can, I can respond to that.
Cause like,
SPEAKER_02 (46:57):
yes, please.
SPEAKER_03 (46:58):
You know, this is something I see like, let's say
like you meet someone on an appor like you're texting, you're
like figuring out the plan.
Right.
I think like, you know, whoever,whenever the, the coffee shop or
the or the restaurant orwhatever gets put in the chat I
(47:23):
think it's more than okay to asklike hey so this is like I've
been here it's probably thismuch per person like are you
cool with that and I think justasking what the price can open
up like okay like what do wewant to do right like the other
SPEAKER_01 (47:40):
person might be like
SPEAKER_03 (47:42):
yeah the other person might be like oh well
yeah, that's cool.
I was, you know, and then ifthey're nice, they're probably
like, I was hoping to buy youdinner.
So if they suck, they'd be like,if they suck, they would be
like, Oh, why are we talkingabout this?
You know what I mean?
But like, and
SPEAKER_02 (48:03):
then that's a nice invitation.
Yeah.
I
SPEAKER_03 (48:06):
think just acknowledging like, even like,
I'll make a joke too.
Like, Oh, this says it's$2 signson Yelp.
Like, are you good with that?
Like, Are
SPEAKER_02 (48:16):
you a$2 sign person or a$4 sign person?
SPEAKER_03 (48:20):
It depends on the date.
Yeah.
It just depends on the date,right?
Because if it's a first date,I'm like, I'm not investing$4
signs.
I'm going to find out first inthe$2 sign range.
Respectfully.
SPEAKER_02 (48:36):
Respectfully.
Okay, I'll be so honest becauseI...
If it's a cis man I'm going outwith, they paying.
SPEAKER_03 (48:45):
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (48:46):
On our principles alone, you're paying.
SPEAKER_03 (48:50):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (48:50):
Anyone else we can have that conversation with.
Close
SPEAKER_03 (48:53):
the wage cap, babe.
Close the wage
SPEAKER_02 (48:55):
cap.
I know, exactly.
Anyway.
That's a good point.
And I think, yeah, it justinvites in the conversation
around how folks kind of want tospend their money or like expect
(49:15):
for like who pays what to kindof go.
And so I like that.
I'm going to try that out when Ihave my next date in like two
years.
SPEAKER_03 (49:27):
But also, you know, the second that, you know,
whoever drops like therestaurant suggestion in the
chat, you got to check in withyourself and be like, okay, what
do I want to do given that thisis where they want to go, right?
So yeah, it just, it kind ofdepends.
Like maybe in the moment I'mlike, oh yeah, I feel, I don't
(49:49):
know, I'm feeling more generous.
I really like chatting with thisperson.
Like, cool, I like might want topick up the tab.
Then I would have to check inwith myself and be like, okay,
here's what it says on Yelp.
And, you know, maybe theconversation can stop there
depending on what you want todo, right?
Maybe you don't got to talkabout it because you already
(50:09):
kind of know this is what I wantto do when I get there.
Some other times it's like, oh,I don't know.
I'm not sure.
Like, I'm not sure about thisperson or if I'm ever going to
see them again, like whatever.
So it is more appropriate tobring up like, hey, it's this
much like, you know, is thatokay with you?
(50:30):
And they could say yes or no, orthey could just bounce, I don't
know, dating these days, youknow?
And then depending on that, thenyou could say like, yeah, I was
hoping like, you know, we couldgo Dutch or like, and you know,
and if this isn't like, youknow...
God, it's so weird to be like,if this isn't in your price
(50:51):
range or if this isn't where youwant to eat, like we can go
somewhere else or we could likedo a picnic or something that's
like more affordable, you know?
And then I would kind of closeit up with like, yeah, I mean, I
don't really care where we go.
I just like want to get to knowyou, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (51:06):
Oh, that's sweet.
Yeah.
I do care where we go.
I appreciate it because quitehonestly depending on like what
you want from you know this likeromantic encounter or any like
encounter like you might notwant to like to be honest with
(51:27):
you like if it's a hook up I'dbe like I don't really want to
drop$200 or maybe I do likelet's go bigger go home and like
hook up one night and man wehave a dope story but for other
folks it's like I actually wantto keep this like really chill
and um but like you know thatgoes into also like expressing
(51:52):
up front what your intentionsare and making sure that the
other folks like person orpeople are like consenting into
what you're like what you'relooking for so i feel i i feel
that yeah for sure there's
SPEAKER_03 (52:07):
definitely a lot of steps in between like hey,
here's the price point.
You know what I mean?
Like, it would be weird if it'slike, we just matched on Tinder.
Yo, what's your budget?
That would be so weird.
You know what I mean?
But there's...
Be that birth doll.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_02 (52:25):
I
SPEAKER_03 (52:25):
will be...
SPEAKER_02 (52:26):
Anyway, let me not.
Let me not.
I want to go back to thequestion around harm because I
took...
domestic violence training herein Colorado.
And one of the things I talkedabout is partners using finances
(52:54):
as a way to control therelationship.
So if like only one person hasaccess to the finances and gets
to pick and choose how much theother person or other people
have in the relationship, how isthat a means of like blocking
the, like the ability of thatperson to make decisions if, if
(53:15):
they don't want to be in therelationship anymore?
And it's something that like, Ithink some, like I have, had
heard about before, but then Igot me thinking about like, so
like, this is something that Iwas never raised to like, taught
to like, think about when, like,I was raised like the man will
(53:36):
provide for you, like, like headof the household type of
situation.
And it got me thinking about howdo we need to be talking about
finances before getting inromantic relationships in order
to set the tone of like, leavingshould always be an option.
(53:59):
And I wanna make sure that bothof us feel that that is there in
case we choose to no longer bein this relationship or if one
of us causes a great deal ofharm or even a little bit of
harm and the other people wannaleave.
And so I just wanted to upliftthat there are things that folks
(54:20):
can be doing, looking at if theyhave an IRA or something, there
are spousal IRAs Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(54:47):
in control of the finances andmaking sure that there are
safety rails or like safetyguards for folks to have like
financial agility to leave atsome point.
I feel like it's just likereally important to me now and
something that wasn't before.
(55:09):
And I think you kind of sharedthis idea like in a previous
conversation around likechildren in finances, I think
that was something that came up,like making sure that folks had,
are considering children in thefinances.
Did you wanna share more aboutthat?
SPEAKER_03 (55:27):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, one of the things that,so like there's like a common
piece of advice out thereDepending on your algorithm.
I don't know.
Common.
But like they'll tell parentslike, hey, you can actually put
(55:47):
your kid down as an authorizeduser on your credit card.
And then that kind of booststheir credit score down the line
because, you know, like theywould have credit history and,
you know, just proof thatthey've been like a responsible
parent.
credit card holder for howevermany years like it's one of
(56:08):
those like hacks that um parentslike to use but i've also seen
it happen where parents do thatand then they spend that money
under the kid's name and then itnever gets resolved and then the
kid like you know um is getsinto some deep shit down the
line, you know, like, and it'stotally, and it's not their
(56:32):
fault.
Right.
And a lot of times too, whenthat happens, it's like, um, if
you call your car to car companyand you're like, wait, I'm not
the one that made thesetransactions.
Like it was my parent.
Right.
Um, they'll probably tell youthe only way that you can
dispute this charge is if yousue them, you know?
Um, so this is like, um, kind ofin line with some of the
(56:56):
financial abuse that you weretalking about that happens in
interpersonal, like intimaterelationships, right?
And I want to shout out the workof this organization called Free
From.
They actually support survivorsof gender-based abuse.
(57:21):
yeah, to like help them bounceback.
And they also have a lot ofresearch of like what it
actually takes, you know, forfolks to leave these kinds of
partnerships.
So I would recommend lookinginto that as well.
They have like cash grants forsurvivors.
They help survivors like rebuildfinancially, especially like in
(57:42):
terms of business, you know whatI mean?
Like starting their ownbusiness.
So yeah, I mean, um uh financialabuses it's no joke like it's
really painful and i think umit's a really high statistic i
(58:03):
mean i think i've heardsomething like 92 of um all like
domestic violence uh cases havea financial abuse component to
it um and it's also like whatmakes it hard like really hard
for people to leave right
SPEAKER_02 (58:20):
yeah absolutely um thank you but in
SPEAKER_03 (58:24):
terms of like yeah in terms of like um
conversations that folks need tohave like to set the tone in the
beginning Similar to like thefirst date convo, there's
usually like a bunch of otherstuff that needs to be, like the
foundation needs to be rightbefore, you know, the finance
(58:46):
conversation happens, right?
So like, I don't know, like, ifthere's anything I can
recommend, so to speak, forlike, folks who, you know, want
to avoid that, because it's moreof like, a foundational thing,
right?
But To me, if you're seeing somered flags of...
(59:10):
I feel like the main red flag issome hot and cold, like, I'm
down to pay for you, and laterthey resent you for having paid
for you when they're the onesthat offered, right?
Stuff like that, it's a big redflag.
Yeah, I think...
(59:33):
Oh, honestly, this day and age,I think not tipping is a red
flag.
Oh
SPEAKER_02 (59:39):
my gosh, it's a red flag for just being an asshole.
SPEAKER_03 (59:42):
Exactly, right?
But anyway, there's a lot oflittle signs here and there,
right?
But I feel like the second thatyou see something like that, I
would just say don't, if youcan, don't put yourself in a
position where you're mixingfinances right away.
(01:00:03):
Cause who knows, you know?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
feel that.
Yeah, so these people dating,where did this come from?
But anyway, so we cannot denythat in the U.S.
we are living in an environmentwith heightened threats to our
safety on so many fronts.
What are some of the ways we canincorporate financial
(01:00:27):
preparedness into our safetyplans?
This can be with how we plan toescape or stay in the country,
natural or human-made disasterplanning or plans we make when
someone we are close to harmsus.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:44):
Yeah.
Someone asked me recently, like,is there something you're saying
over and over again given, like,that's like a suggestion you're
giving to everyone given thetimes that we live in?
And I will say please, my lovedones, have at least thousand
(01:01:07):
dollars in your savings and likeprioritize that over paying back
any debt okay um ideally athousand dollars in cash because
if you need to like bounce andgo somewhere or if the power
goes out in you know in town orin the city that you live in and
you know folks aren't going tobe able to process like credit
(01:01:30):
cards and stuff right like
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:32):
we're
SPEAKER_03 (01:01:32):
going to need to have something to like buy
things with so I would I wouldstart with that for sure and
then you know I understand thatwe're living in a time where the
cost of living is so high andthere's not always a lot of
(01:01:54):
extra at the end of the payperiod, you know, to get us
through.
And I would just say, saving andplanning for disasters, like
just, I know there's like a, ah,I gotta do this right now.
(01:02:15):
But like, I would really justencourage like, habits over, you
know, the big wins and the biglosses type of thing, right?
Like, even if it's, like,$5 amonth, like, it's something, you
know?
Like, I really think it's aboutthe consistency and not, like,
how much you put in it all atonce, you know?
(01:02:38):
So, yeah, even, like, I seepeople all the time, like, oh,
yeah, I...
charged hundreds of dollars tomy credit card because i was
doing some you know shopping fordisaster planning and having my
go bag ready like cool yeah iunderstand and also it's time to
(01:03:01):
really like like at the end ofthe day if you really only have
your backpack Do you need them?
Can you carry that much stuff?
First of all, you know, likelet's like, let's really think,
think it through versus just,you know, panicking.
Right.
I'm like, I know I can.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:19):
REI.
It's going to be terrible.
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:25):
Sorry.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:26):
Yeah.
But you
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:27):
know, I think, um, also like, uh, thinking ahead, I
mean, um, I will just mentionlike by the time that we
recorded this, the folks in Gazahave been, you know, in a
(01:03:48):
man-made famine for like fivemonths now and starving.
And then, you know, this hasbeen going on since October,
2023.
Right.
And I think of like the waysthat, you know, like the
contraptions people are makingto filter water.
Like, I mean, they, you know,they didn't have to go to REI to
like find the thing.
(01:04:09):
Right.
So like if you get in themindset of like, okay, shit is
going to go down eventually andI'm really going to need my like
ingenuity and like working withwhat's around, then I think have
that energy also when you'reputting together the go bag.
Right.
Like what do I already have inmy house that can go in here?
Who can I call when I'm missingsomething?
(01:04:32):
I don't know.
Like a, like a piece of rope ora carabiner or something.
Come on.
There's so many lesbians outthere who will have the
carabiner that you need.
Like you don't have to go buyone.
You know what I mean?
Like, like as much as it's likethe stuff, it's also the mindset
that we're going to be in, whichis like, make do with what you
have and like phone a friend,you know, like who are you going
(01:04:57):
to call when you don't have athing.
Right.
So
SPEAKER_02 (01:04:59):
yeah.
UNKNOWN (01:05:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:01):
Absolutely.
And yeah, this is not todiminish what folks are
experiencing in Gaza.
It's an absolute genocide.
And I think it speaks to thefact that they had to create all
these things from rubble aboutgoing back to the sense of...
(01:05:25):
leaning into community andwhat's like already there.
And it's simply not enough.
It's simply not enough.
But when I think about myselfand like how I was really
scrappy as a poor kid.
I was really scrappy because mymom was not buying me all the
clothes I wanted.
So I'd be painting things andcreating the skinny jeans out of
(01:05:50):
bell bottoms from the thriftstore because my mom would
refuse to buy me skinny jeans.
I was very inventive and itcracks me up now how much I
don't use my ingenuity I'm justlike, I'll go buy it.
I'll just go buy it.
I was like, you know how to fixthis.
Just fix it.
(01:06:10):
So I definitely hear what you'resaying.
Yeah.
And I guess to close us out, canyou give us a couple of people
that you continue to learn fromand suggest we check out?
Thanks for that drop of freedomfrom.
(01:06:30):
And then also, where can we findyou?
What's happening for you?
Any events coming up?
Maybe they will have alreadypassed by, but she'll still
share.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Let's see, who am I?
continuing to learn from um ohum there's a poet that i really
love his name is ross gay um heactually shares a birthday with
my grandma which i think isreally special august 1st leo's
(01:07:06):
leo's rise up um
SPEAKER_02 (01:07:09):
don't tell all the leos that we've done the whole
last thing okay i love you soleo's wit
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:16):
um yeah and he um he writes about joy um he has a
book of poetry called thecatalog of unabashed gratitude
um really lovely book um He alsohas a book where he, like, the
(01:07:39):
Book of Delights, he wrote,like, a little mini essay about
delight every day and, like, putit together in a book.
And he kind of found, like, themore that you seek it out, the
more that you're like, wow,things are delightful, you know?
And I think he does a reallygood job, too, of, like, the
(01:08:01):
purpose of joy is not to, like,spiritually bypass, like, all
the awful things that arehappening.
in our world right now, youknow?
But that joy and sorrow actuallygo hand in hand, you know?
And they can be experiencedtogether.
So yeah, I've been reading a lotof his work lately to keep me on
(01:08:26):
the up, because it's dark timesright now.
Yeah, it's wild times right now.
So...
Definitely would recommend him.
Yeah, and I continue to learnfrom the one and only James
(01:08:48):
Baldwin up here.
I saw that
SPEAKER_02 (01:08:50):
up there.
I was like,
SPEAKER_03 (01:08:51):
oh, okay.
Yeah, this is his biography,which was written by a friend of
his who also helped him organizehis notes and transcribe stuff
and honestly, I think helped himbudget.
So I'm like, okay, work.
Spoiler alert.
He was always, you know, I mean,artists, like there's never,
(01:09:17):
there's never enough reallysupport for artists.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And then where to find me?
I'm on Instagram at queer andtrans wealth.
You can also find, check us outon Substack
queerandtranswealth.substack.comand yeah on the site
(01:09:42):
queerandtranswealth.org ifyou're interested in our
services
SPEAKER_02 (01:09:51):
well thank you so much Leo again for being on the
podcast this has been a lovelyconversation so thank you Thank
you so much for watching thisepisode.
I love you so much.
I'm kissing.
I'm kissing consensually.
(01:10:12):
If you want that, I will ask youbefore kissing you.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the podcast.
I encourage you to meander ondown to the description link
below to share this episode, tipthe guests, and follow all the
magical folks that made thispodcast possible.
Deep gratitude to all of you.
(01:10:34):
Even patting my myself a littlebit on the back right now labor
of love labor of love latergator and may you walk with the
ancestors peace out 22,000 timesa day 22,000 times a day 22,000
(01:10:57):
times a day 22,000 times a day
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