November 25, 2019 • 11 mins
Equal Pay and Gender Bias - Part 1 (Unconscious Bias)
There are laws in place to help reduce gender bias and unequal pay in the workplace, but is that the solution? From the hiring process to unequal pay, unconscious bias creates a large difference in the experiences of men and women in the workplace. This week our super panel discusses "Unconscious Bias" in Part 1 of this 3 part series on Gender Bias and Equal Pay.
Listen in like a super fly on the wall to this very heated discussion with:
Samantha Naes - CN Video Production (Corporate Video Production)
Joel Emery - Ignite Strategies (Sales Systems)
Amy Narishkin - Empowering Partners (HR Services)
Natalie Meyer - HooPayz (Employee Benefits)
Victoria Wors - Wors Consulting (HR Services)
Gerald Richardson - Evans & Dixon, LLC. (Legal Services)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christine (00:02):
You're listening to SuperManager, the podcast for
people who manage people andbusiness with ideas, friends and
expert interviews to help you bea SuperManager.
Sam (00:13):
Welcome back everyone.
This week for SuperManager, weare talking about gender bias
and equal pay.
I have my regular group ofsuperheroes with me today.
I have,
Gerry (00:24):
I'm Gerry Richardson.
I'm a lawyer at Evans and Dixon.
I work with employers.
I help them manage theirrelationships through the
courtship, the marriage and thedivorce.
Joel (00:33):
Joel Emery with Ignite Strategies.
I serve as a sales systemarchitect for small and midsized
businesses.
Natalie (00:39):
Natalie Meyer with HooPayz and we are your benefits
concierge, helping people tounderstand and maximize the
benefits that they have in theirpackage.
Vicki (00:47):
Vicki Wors, Wors Consulting.
I am a human resourcesconsultant for small to midsize
businesses, helping themmaneuver through some of the
uncomfortable issues they face.
Amy (00:57):
I'm Amy Narishkin.
I'm a cultural intelligencestrategist with Empowering
Partners, which is actually mybusiness.
So I'm a consultant as well andI help organizations reach
broader markets by hiring peoplethat they think are different.
Sam (01:11):
And I am Samantha Naes was CN video.
We do corporate videoproduction.
I don't really want to mentionthe name of the company, but I
was a systems programmer for avery large organization at one
time and it was my first day ofwork there.
They're showing me around thedepartment and I noticed that
the computer programmers weremostly women.
And I thought, Ooh, I'm going tolike working here.
They're very progressive.
(01:31):
It's 80% women in thedepartment.
And I was talking to mysupervisor, he was showing me
around and I said, this isgreat.
It looks like you've got mostlywomen working here.
And he goes, yeah, yeah, we'reon a budget.
Natalie (01:43):
Wow, okay...
Amy (01:45):
That's really cute.
Sam (01:46):
And so it didn't stop there.
I looked at him because I didn'tknow what to make of it.
When you know, when somebodymakes a comment that's just so
outrageous that you like.
Natalie (01:54):
If that's a joke, or if he's real.
Sam (01:57):
Did you really just say that?
Amy (01:57):
That's pretty off base.
Sam (01:58):
And I just stared at him and I could tell there was an
awkwardness there.
So he continued to explain.
He said, no, no, it's just, it'sa really good deal for us
because they're greatprogrammers, very talented, but
you don't have to pay them asmuch.
Amy (02:11):
Ouch.
Sam (02:11):
And I was like, Oh, he did just say what I thought he just
said.
Natalie (02:17):
Wow, thank you, good to know
Sam (02:17):
Now this was several years ago, and I don't know if this is
really still going on as much asit did back then because this
was 20 years ago.
But...
Amy (02:24):
Yes
Natalie (02:27):
I think things like that absolutely still happen.
And I think sometimes too, womendon't get the opportunity to
fight for, I mean, part of it iswomen need to be more willing to
speak up and say, okay, that'snot fair, or here's what I want
and be more pushy.
But there's also part of it toothat they shouldn't be passed
over for certain things.
And I work in an industry that'smostly in health care and a lot
(02:47):
of insurance benefits.
It's very much of a maledominated industry.
So those kinds of things do comeup.
And so
Sam (02:53):
Two things that I always say to interns, we used to do
internships a lot in thesummertime.
One when comes to full timeemployment, when you're
interviewing people and one ofthe questions that I ask is what
kind of salary are you lookingfor because I want to get a feel
for.
Natalie (03:07):
Sure.
Sam (03:07):
what do you feel your value is?
Men always ask for a highersalary than women do.
When I ask that question and I'mgoing to give them the salary
that.
Natalie (03:16):
that you have to offer, right.
Sam (03:17):
Based on, yeah, that I have to offer based on experience,
but it's something that I'venoticed and then I do have this
conversation with female internsbecause when we do internships,
if it's all female, it's not aproblem.
They work very well together.
When you have some male and somefemale and I say, okay, we've
got this project that needs tobe done.
The male intern almost always,and I don't want to give a
(03:39):
blanket statement,
Natalie (03:40):
Sure.
Sam (03:40):
but just from what I've seen, almost always says, I'll
take that.
I can do it.
They step up whether they haveany experience or not.
They'll say, me, I got it.
I got this.
I can do this.
They have that confidence.
In fact a little bit overlyconfident because oftentimes
they can't, but they've steppedup and volunteered and then the
female intern will say, I'llhelp.
Amy (03:59):
Uh-huh.
So there's actually research tosupport that.
The, I've just finished a bookcalled, well actually in the
spring by Soraya Chemaly calledRage Becomes Her and chalk full
of statistics and tough readtook me about three months,
couple three inch book.
Sam (04:15):
Oh wow.
Amy (04:16):
But one of the things that we talk about is that parents
and teachers interrupt ourfemale students and our girls
twice as much as we interruptour boys.
And so in a sense we're allcomplicit.
Sam (04:28):
Interesting...
Amy (04:28):
and t o both of you all made that that same point, women
are complicit.
I'm an educator, I'm a mom.
And now ever since I've readthat statistic, I'll definitely
put my hand gently on myhusband's arm and say, let her
finish.
We have three daughters and ason and it wasn't something that
we were ever conscious of.
Natalie (04:47):
Sure.
Sam (04:47):
Right.
Amy (04:47):
But now both of us go, wait, let her finish.
Because by interrupting womeninadvertently or intentionally,
you're communicating the, whatyou have to share isn't quite
worth hearing.
Both of you all brought up thefact that women are complicit in
our own oppression in a sense.
But one of the things that wehave to be careful is we can say
(05:10):
that women need to speak up, butif their survival depends on
them being silent, minimizingwho they are so that they can
keep their job.
Sam (05:17):
Yeah.
Amy (05:18):
We can't just kind of across the board say women need
to speak up.
Sam (05:21):
Well if they're going to get interrupted twice as often.
Amy (05:23):
Right.
And, and if they need that joband they're a single parent.
Sam (05:26):
Right.
Amy (05:27):
And their livelihood and food on the table the next day
depends on it, they are notgoing to speak up.
Particularly with a male bossthat doesn't want...
Gerry (05:35):
And that's why Me Too exists.
Natalie (05:38):
Right.
Sam (05:38):
Yeah.
Natalie (05:38):
Well, and I, she brought up a good point.
It's sometimes that it's thefemales they maybe have, they
might be a single mom and theymay know that they may need to
duck out early one day orsomething comes up with a child
and so they feel like I'd ratherbe able to have that little bit
of flexibility and doesn't meanthat they don't go home that
night and finish their work.
Amy (05:57):
Right.
Natalie (05:58):
I mean, I don't ever,
Amy (05:59):
Right.
Natalie (05:59):
I've never seen a woman that
Amy (06:00):
Right.
Natalie (06:00):
fails to complete a job because of that, but the fact of
the matter is they feel a littlebit apologetic for that.
Gerry (06:06):
But my daughter, she works in the workplace and it's
roughly equal positions threefemales.
My daughter is reallyindustrious and very
conscientious and the othersaren't and it just grates her.
I just hear and it's not a malefemale thing.
(06:29):
There are individuals that ifsupervision is loose, they're
out of there.
Natalie (06:34):
Absolutely.
Gerry (06:34):
come in late.
Amy (06:35):
Yeah.
Natalie (06:36):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Gerry (06:37):
And it just drives my daughter nuts.
Amy (06:39):
Broad brush strokes about.
Gerry (06:40):
It has nothing to do with gender.
Amy (06:41):
Any group of people isn't necessarily helpful, but yeah,
it's going to depend on theindividual.
Sam (06:46):
Amy, you were talking earlier about how people can
have certain perceptions and noteven realize it about
interrupting more often whenit's a a woman speaking rather
than a man.
It reminded me of a story.
I have a much younger brother.
He was born when I was incollege and so he's much younger
than me and I was out visitingwith my parents and we were at
(07:06):
an electronic store and myyounger brother had a question
about a video game and he saw anemployee and it was a female
employee and he said, Oh, let meask her.
And my dad, without eventhinking about it said, Oh,
she's not going to know whatshe's talking about.
Ask him.
Amy (07:20):
Interesting.
Sam (07:21):
And my brother looked at him kind of confused and my mom
said, Ave, how do you know that?
And he just kind of went, huh?
I don't know.
And scrummed his way out of it.
The funny thing is my brotherwent and asked the guy and he
said, I don't know, let me askher.
And he went back to.
Amy (07:35):
What a riot.
Sam (07:36):
Yeah.
Amy (07:36):
What a riot.
Natalie (07:37):
That kind of reminds me of a situation I had.
I was working in event down inTennessee and my husband
actually came to help me becausethe person who was supposed to
help me out was gone that day,and so he came to help me and I
was talking to mostly a lot ofmale doctors.
This event had specifically alot of doctors and they kept
coming up and asking questionsand they would go straight to
(07:59):
him and he'd say, actually,she's the one that you need to
ask.
She's the one, and they wouldlook and go and they would
continue to go to him.
Sam (08:08):
Oh, wow...
Natalie (08:08):
a nd think, he's the one that they needed to ask.
I found it really interestinghow many people time and time a
gain i t, I don't know if it wasmaybe just more of a Southern
atmosphere if it had somethingto do with that, b ut or if it
was, these are older doctors andthings of that sort, so.
Joel (08:23):
There's definitely an age.
Sam (08:24):
Vicki's here! She's joined the party!
Joel (08:26):
Hello Vicki!
Sam (08:28):
Come on in.
Let's welcome Vicky into theconversation.
Vicki (08:33):
Hello!
Sam (08:33):
So we were just kind of telling some stories.
Amy (08:35):
I think the influencer there with Natalie's husband
being approached with your dad,correcting your son to go talk
to the guy instead.
That would be something in myworld as a cultural intelligence
strategist, called unconsciousbias.
Sam (08:50):
Right.
Amy (08:51):
It's not something intentional.
It's not something malicious.
More often than not, people justhave a bias based on the way
they've been enculturated.
So if you are raised in a maledominated environment where men
have the expertise, you mightinadvertently think that men
(09:11):
have the expertise that they maynot have it all.
So that's where kind ofunconscious bias training comes
in because then just becomingaware that you have bias sitting
back there makes you go, Hm, isthat actually true?
The way I'm thinking and I'macting.
Sam (09:29):
So I think this is a good stopping point for today.
We can continue thisconversation in our next
episode, but for now, doesanybody have a good horror
story?
Vicki?
Vicki (09:39):
An assignment that I received one time an employee
was so disgruntled,
Sam (09:44):
Uh-Oh...
Vicki (09:44):
And remember I'm human resources.
So I was brought in to helprebuild the HR department.
She destroyed.
She shredded all their I-9s andOh yeah.
This was a company thatobviously did not bond with
employees and especially the HRmanager.
Sam (10:03):
There's gotta be something illegal about that.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
I was going to say there should be legal, yeah.
Sam (10:07):
Couldn't she be arrested for that?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Well, I'm quite sure this particular employer
wouldn't want the feds in thereanyway for their own.
Let me put it this way.
Since the beginning of thisyear, eight women have left
their employee.
Sam (10:22):
Oh...
Vicki (10:23):
Okay.
How many men have left?
As far as we're talkingprofessional managerial
positions, maybe one.
Sam (10:31):
And if you're interested in any custom onboarding or
training videos about yourcompany culture, give me a call
at(314) 843-3663 that's(314)VIDEO ME, or reach out to me via
email sam@cn-video.com.
Christine (10:45):
Thanks for listening to super manager by CN Video
Production.
Visit our website at cn-video.com for additional
episodes and lots ofSuperManager resources, or give
us a call at(314) VIDEO ME.
You're listening to SuperManager, the podcast for
people who manage people andbusiness with ideas, friends and
expert interviews to help you bea SuperManager.
Sam (00:13):
Welcome back everyone.
This week for SuperManager, weare talking about gender bias
and equal pay.
I have my regular group ofsuperheroes with me today.
I have,
Gerry (00:24):
I'm Gerry Richardson.
I'm a lawyer at Evans and Dixon.
I work with employers.
I help them manage theirrelationships through the
courtship, the marriage and thedivorce.
Joel (00:33):
Joel Emery with Ignite Strategies.
I serve as a sales systemarchitect for small and midsized
businesses.
Natalie (00:39):
Natalie Meyer with HooPayz and we are your benefits
concierge, helping people tounderstand and maximize the
benefits that they have in theirpackage.
Vicki (00:47):
Vicki Wors, Wors Consulting.
I am a human resourcesconsultant for small to midsize
businesses, helping themmaneuver through some of the
uncomfortable issues they face.
Amy (00:57):
I'm Amy Narishkin.
I'm a cultural intelligencestrategist with Empowering
Partners, which is actually mybusiness.
So I'm a consultant as well andI help organizations reach
broader markets by hiring peoplethat they think are different.
Sam (01:11):
And I am Samantha Naes was CN video.
We do corporate videoproduction.
I don't really want to mentionthe name of the company, but I
was a systems programmer for avery large organization at one
time and it was my first day ofwork there.
They're showing me around thedepartment and I noticed that
the computer programmers weremostly women.
And I thought, Ooh, I'm going tolike working here.
They're very progressive.
(01:31):
It's 80% women in thedepartment.
And I was talking to mysupervisor, he was showing me
around and I said, this isgreat.
It looks like you've got mostlywomen working here.
And he goes, yeah, yeah, we'reon a budget.
Natalie (01:43):
Wow, okay...
Amy (01:45):
That's really cute.
Sam (01:46):
And so it didn't stop there.
I looked at him because I didn'tknow what to make of it.
When you know, when somebodymakes a comment that's just so
outrageous that you like.
Natalie (01:54):
If that's a joke, or if he's real.
Sam (01:57):
Did you really just say that?
Amy (01:57):
That's pretty off base.
Sam (01:58):
And I just stared at him and I could tell there was an
awkwardness there.
So he continued to explain.
He said, no, no, it's just, it'sa really good deal for us
because they're greatprogrammers, very talented, but
you don't have to pay them asmuch.
Amy (02:11):
Ouch.
Sam (02:11):
And I was like, Oh, he did just say what I thought he just
said.
Natalie (02:17):
Wow, thank you, good to know
Sam (02:17):
Now this was several years ago, and I don't know if this is
really still going on as much asit did back then because this
was 20 years ago.
But...
Amy (02:24):
Yes
Natalie (02:27):
I think things like that absolutely still happen.
And I think sometimes too, womendon't get the opportunity to
fight for, I mean, part of it iswomen need to be more willing to
speak up and say, okay, that'snot fair, or here's what I want
and be more pushy.
But there's also part of it toothat they shouldn't be passed
over for certain things.
And I work in an industry that'smostly in health care and a lot
(02:47):
of insurance benefits.
It's very much of a maledominated industry.
So those kinds of things do comeup.
And so
Sam (02:53):
Two things that I always say to interns, we used to do
internships a lot in thesummertime.
One when comes to full timeemployment, when you're
interviewing people and one ofthe questions that I ask is what
kind of salary are you lookingfor because I want to get a feel
for.
Natalie (03:07):
Sure.
Sam (03:07):
what do you feel your value is?
Men always ask for a highersalary than women do.
When I ask that question and I'mgoing to give them the salary
that.
Natalie (03:16):
that you have to offer, right.
Sam (03:17):
Based on, yeah, that I have to offer based on experience,
but it's something that I'venoticed and then I do have this
conversation with female internsbecause when we do internships,
if it's all female, it's not aproblem.
They work very well together.
When you have some male and somefemale and I say, okay, we've
got this project that needs tobe done.
The male intern almost always,and I don't want to give a
(03:39):
blanket statement,
Natalie (03:40):
Sure.
Sam (03:40):
but just from what I've seen, almost always says, I'll
take that.
I can do it.
They step up whether they haveany experience or not.
They'll say, me, I got it.
I got this.
I can do this.
They have that confidence.
In fact a little bit overlyconfident because oftentimes
they can't, but they've steppedup and volunteered and then the
female intern will say, I'llhelp.
Amy (03:59):
Uh-huh.
So there's actually research tosupport that.
The, I've just finished a bookcalled, well actually in the
spring by Soraya Chemaly calledRage Becomes Her and chalk full
of statistics and tough readtook me about three months,
couple three inch book.
Sam (04:15):
Oh wow.
Amy (04:16):
But one of the things that we talk about is that parents
and teachers interrupt ourfemale students and our girls
twice as much as we interruptour boys.
And so in a sense we're allcomplicit.
Sam (04:28):
Interesting...
Amy (04:28):
and t o both of you all made that that same point, women
are complicit.
I'm an educator, I'm a mom.
And now ever since I've readthat statistic, I'll definitely
put my hand gently on myhusband's arm and say, let her
finish.
We have three daughters and ason and it wasn't something that
we were ever conscious of.
Natalie (04:47):
Sure.
Sam (04:47):
Right.
Amy (04:47):
But now both of us go, wait, let her finish.
Because by interrupting womeninadvertently or intentionally,
you're communicating the, whatyou have to share isn't quite
worth hearing.
Both of you all brought up thefact that women are complicit in
our own oppression in a sense.
But one of the things that wehave to be careful is we can say
(05:10):
that women need to speak up, butif their survival depends on
them being silent, minimizingwho they are so that they can
keep their job.
Sam (05:17):
Yeah.
Amy (05:18):
We can't just kind of across the board say women need
to speak up.
Sam (05:21):
Well if they're going to get interrupted twice as often.
Amy (05:23):
Right.
And, and if they need that joband they're a single parent.
Sam (05:26):
Right.
Amy (05:27):
And their livelihood and food on the table the next day
depends on it, they are notgoing to speak up.
Particularly with a male bossthat doesn't want...
Gerry (05:35):
And that's why Me Too exists.
Natalie (05:38):
Right.
Sam (05:38):
Yeah.
Natalie (05:38):
Well, and I, she brought up a good point.
It's sometimes that it's thefemales they maybe have, they
might be a single mom and theymay know that they may need to
duck out early one day orsomething comes up with a child
and so they feel like I'd ratherbe able to have that little bit
of flexibility and doesn't meanthat they don't go home that
night and finish their work.
Amy (05:57):
Right.
Natalie (05:58):
I mean, I don't ever,
Amy (05:59):
Right.
Natalie (05:59):
I've never seen a woman that
Amy (06:00):
Right.
Natalie (06:00):
fails to complete a job because of that, but the fact of
the matter is they feel a littlebit apologetic for that.
Gerry (06:06):
But my daughter, she works in the workplace and it's
roughly equal positions threefemales.
My daughter is reallyindustrious and very
conscientious and the othersaren't and it just grates her.
I just hear and it's not a malefemale thing.
(06:29):
There are individuals that ifsupervision is loose, they're
out of there.
Natalie (06:34):
Absolutely.
Gerry (06:34):
come in late.
Amy (06:35):
Yeah.
Natalie (06:36):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Gerry (06:37):
And it just drives my daughter nuts.
Amy (06:39):
Broad brush strokes about.
Gerry (06:40):
It has nothing to do with gender.
Amy (06:41):
Any group of people isn't necessarily helpful, but yeah,
it's going to depend on theindividual.
Sam (06:46):
Amy, you were talking earlier about how people can
have certain perceptions and noteven realize it about
interrupting more often whenit's a a woman speaking rather
than a man.
It reminded me of a story.
I have a much younger brother.
He was born when I was incollege and so he's much younger
than me and I was out visitingwith my parents and we were at
(07:06):
an electronic store and myyounger brother had a question
about a video game and he saw anemployee and it was a female
employee and he said, Oh, let meask her.
And my dad, without eventhinking about it said, Oh,
she's not going to know whatshe's talking about.
Ask him.
Amy (07:20):
Interesting.
Sam (07:21):
And my brother looked at him kind of confused and my mom
said, Ave, how do you know that?
And he just kind of went, huh?
I don't know.
And scrummed his way out of it.
The funny thing is my brotherwent and asked the guy and he
said, I don't know, let me askher.
And he went back to.
Amy (07:35):
What a riot.
Sam (07:36):
Yeah.
Amy (07:36):
What a riot.
Natalie (07:37):
That kind of reminds me of a situation I had.
I was working in event down inTennessee and my husband
actually came to help me becausethe person who was supposed to
help me out was gone that day,and so he came to help me and I
was talking to mostly a lot ofmale doctors.
This event had specifically alot of doctors and they kept
coming up and asking questionsand they would go straight to
(07:59):
him and he'd say, actually,she's the one that you need to
ask.
She's the one, and they wouldlook and go and they would
continue to go to him.
Sam (08:08):
Oh, wow...
Natalie (08:08):
a nd think, he's the one that they needed to ask.
I found it really interestinghow many people time and time a
gain i t, I don't know if it wasmaybe just more of a Southern
atmosphere if it had somethingto do with that, b ut or if it
was, these are older doctors andthings of that sort, so.
Joel (08:23):
There's definitely an age.
Sam (08:24):
Vicki's here! She's joined the party!
Joel (08:26):
Hello Vicki!
Sam (08:28):
Come on in.
Let's welcome Vicky into theconversation.
Vicki (08:33):
Hello!
Sam (08:33):
So we were just kind of telling some stories.
Amy (08:35):
I think the influencer there with Natalie's husband
being approached with your dad,correcting your son to go talk
to the guy instead.
That would be something in myworld as a cultural intelligence
strategist, called unconsciousbias.
Sam (08:50):
Right.
Amy (08:51):
It's not something intentional.
It's not something malicious.
More often than not, people justhave a bias based on the way
they've been enculturated.
So if you are raised in a maledominated environment where men
have the expertise, you mightinadvertently think that men
(09:11):
have the expertise that they maynot have it all.
So that's where kind ofunconscious bias training comes
in because then just becomingaware that you have bias sitting
back there makes you go, Hm, isthat actually true?
The way I'm thinking and I'macting.
Sam (09:29):
So I think this is a good stopping point for today.
We can continue thisconversation in our next
episode, but for now, doesanybody have a good horror
story?
Vicki?
Vicki (09:39):
An assignment that I received one time an employee
was so disgruntled,
Sam (09:44):
Uh-Oh...
Vicki (09:44):
And remember I'm human resources.
So I was brought in to helprebuild the HR department.
She destroyed.
She shredded all their I-9s andOh yeah.
This was a company thatobviously did not bond with
employees and especially the HRmanager.
Sam (10:03):
There's gotta be something illegal about that.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
I was going to say there should be legal, yeah.
Sam (10:07):
Couldn't she be arrested for that?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Well, I'm quite sure this particular employer
wouldn't want the feds in thereanyway for their own.
Let me put it this way.
Since the beginning of thisyear, eight women have left
their employee.
Sam (10:22):
Oh...
Vicki (10:23):
Okay.
How many men have left?
As far as we're talkingprofessional managerial
positions, maybe one.
Sam (10:31):
And if you're interested in any custom onboarding or
training videos about yourcompany culture, give me a call
at(314) 843-3663 that's(314)VIDEO ME, or reach out to me via
email sam@cn-video.com.
Christine (10:45):
Thanks for listening to super manager by CN Video
Production.
Visit our website at cn-video.com for additional
episodes and lots ofSuperManager resources, or give
us a call at(314) VIDEO ME.
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