November 18, 2019 • 21 mins
Employee enthusiasm and loyalty is an important element for keeping your team productive. On this week's episode of SuperManager, our panelists discuss the obstacles and solutions to inspiring employees and gaining their loyalty.
Samantha C Naes - CN Video Production (Corporate Video Production)
Vicky Wors - Wors Consulting (HR Services)
Sally Bowles - PreFix Technologies (IT Solutions)
Natalie Meyer - Hoopayz (Benefit Services)
Joel Emery - Ignite Strategies (Sales Systems)
Curt Kinney - Alliance Technologies, LLC (Managed IT Services)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christine (00:01):
You're listening to super manager, the podcast for
people who manage people andbusiness with ideas, trends, and
expert interviews to help you bea super manager.
Sam (00:12):
I found for me personally, enthusiasm and loyalty first are
two different things.
With enthusiasm, my opinion,it's about having specific goals
and victories that they can meetand as far as loyalty goes, I
feel like you get what you giveand that's what we're going to
be talking about this week isemployee enthusiasm and loyalty
and how do we get and keep it.
I am Samantha Naes with CNvideo.
(00:34):
We do corporate video productionand I have with me my group of
super friends,
Vicki (00:38):
Victoria Wars go by Vicki.
Wars Consulting, a humanresources consultancy.
Sally (00:43):
Sally Bowls, Prefix Technologies.
We work with small and mediumsized businesses to alleviate
the headaches and financial riskassociated with technology.
Natalie (00:53):
Natalie Meyer, president of Hoopayz, we
advocate for your company, youremployees, HR and your brokers.
Joel (01:00):
Joel Emery with Ignite Strategies.
I serve as a sale systemsarchitect for small and midsize
businesses, helping them growtheir revenue streams.
Kurt (01:08):
Kurt Kenny with the Alliance Technologies, managed
services provider.
Also I'm running the consultingpractice for small to medium
businesses.
Vicki (01:15):
Unfortunately, employees have a generation above them,
their parents that they got towatch being laid off after 25
years, 30 years.
They got to see how loyalty hasnot been, how would we say,
rewarded, valued.
(01:35):
And then that's one aspect.
Sam (01:38):
Do you think that's really the cause though.
I mean,
Vicki (01:40):
Well going back to the other issue, most new hires, if
they're college educated, havegot to have a job to pay all of
that student debt.
That is something that's overtheir heads and to be laid off
or cut loose with little or nonotice will absolutely devastate
them on top of that, especiallyfrom the tech field, if they
(02:02):
stay with an organization morethan two or three years and the
organization has not providedthem development, provided them
continued knowledge, growth,they have to leave or they will
not be marketable anymore.
So you're dealing with a coupleof kind of interesting
approaches there.
Do you find that Sally and your,
Sally (02:23):
We are constantly learning.
It's a daily thing because if wedon't, we're behind.
Vicki (02:27):
But you offer that to your employees and by slowly by
doing that, that's a kind of abuilt in retention right there,
isn't it?
Sally (02:34):
Well, if you don't stay ahead of your field, you can't
serve your clients.
And that's our philosophy.
Vicki (02:39):
That's correct.
Sally (02:40):
But I do think that there's a huge, and I mean huge,
probably two generations therethat have watched their parents
go through and get to that ageof in between 50 and 60 and
suddenly laid off.
And I think that they're causingpeople to be,
Sam (02:55):
You're saying you think that employees coming into the
workforce don't trust employers?
Sally (02:59):
No.
No, not at all.
Right.
I think that they probably haveinstilled in them that they need
to look out for themselves more,whether that's through education
or training for that nextpromotion up where there was an
older generation who thought ifthey stayed long enough, they
would get to that next level, berecognized.
Sam (03:17):
But what's the difference?
Because it sounds like when yousay that you're taught to look
out for yourself, what you'resaying is that you not to trust
your employer.
sally (03:25):
No, I don't mean that at all.
By look up for yourself.
I mean figure out if you wantthat next promotion, what does
that take?
Sam (03:31):
Oh, okay.
Sally (03:32):
What do you need to do for yourself?
Where I think, and ifparticularly like my parents'
generation, I think if youstayed at a company long enough
and you were noticed by yourboss, they didn't have to toot
their own horn.
They didn't have to do their ownhomework.
They were kind of led along inthe corporation because most of
them stayed 35 40 years.
Now if you're a young person outof college and you're in a large
(03:54):
corporation, you kind of have tofigure out for yourself, where
do I want to go and what do Ineed to do and hopefully you
work for someplace that's goingto either offer that, whether
it's continuing education,taking an evening course.
What do you do to betteryourself?
I don't think anybody's waitinganymore for their manager to
tell them.
Sam (04:13):
So you're not talking about someone just entering a new job.
You're talking about someonewho's been with the company for
awhile.
What keeps their loyalty andwhat keeps them is continuing to
grow and learn more and be morevaluable.
Sally (04:24):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think if you're not meantto feel that way, those are the
people that are going to belooking.
Yeah.
But I do think the youngergeneration is more in tune to
reaching out and askingquestions to better themselves
versus waiting for HR or amanager to tell them.
And I personally think it'sgreat.
Vicki (04:42):
Well actually there are groups out there when in
particular I know that that'swhat they catered to.
They cater to currently employedindividuals who want to continue
to develop themselves while theyare employed.
But they're not being offeredthat within their organization.
Sam (04:59):
I was talking to a friend of mine who does recruiting and
she was saying that the bestfinds are the ones that are
currently employed because youget the job hoppers, the people
that get there and it wasn'twhat they expected and they
leave and they don't quite yethave the commitments like maybe
they're still living at homewith their parents and so those
are not what she considers to bethe best finds, but the ones
(05:20):
that are with an employer thathave been there for awhile and
they're getting to that levelwhere they're starting to feel
unappreciated and like they'refalling behind people who are
entering the workforce, thoseare the best ones for offering
them new opportunities becausegoing somewhere else can often
offer them what they're notgetting with their current
employer.
Natalie (05:37):
It's very true.
I have a friend of mine that wasjust not happy with her job and
she called me the other morningas I was walking my dog.
I was like five 30 or something.
I'm like, why is she calling me?
She was on her way to work.
Yeah, she was very, she go inearly so she can get home to
pick up her kids and stuff likethat.
And so she was just like, I justwanna quit.
And I was like, well your tofinding a new job are better if
(05:59):
you stay employed then if youwait and then go looking, you
know.
And I think it also just killsthe, you're talking about
enthusiasm at the beginning.
And I think sometimes it's alsojust that natural, like how to
keep the wheels churning andwhen you're in the mentality of
working, keeps you going andthen to stay enthused.
I think it also goes back to,
Sam (06:16):
That's great advice for your friend, but what about what
that does to the organization?
So you've got somebody whoreally hates their job, doesn't
give a crap about it anymore,but is sticking it out until
their next good opportunitycomes along.
How good of a job are they doingfor the organization?
Natalie (06:28):
Yeah.
Well, she got moved to a newmanager and I said, well you
never know.
This person could be amazing andyou really should hold out and
wait.
And see, I mean if you want tolook or something on the side,
but don't necessarily rule outthe fact just because you had a
bad manager before, but thisperson is also going to be bad.
Sally (06:45):
The right manager can make any job wonderful.
Natalie (06:48):
Agreed.
We talk about loyalty andenthusiasm.
I think if you have the rightmanagers, you may not be loyal
to the company, but you'reloyal.
You know, I've known a number ofpeople that once that manager
left, they were like, well I'mleaving.
Sam (07:00):
That's a whole other level.
Because we, I was thinking alongthe lines of benefits in the way
it works in the office and howdo you keep people loyal?
But you're talking about whatkind of like what I said, you
get what you give if you've gotgood managers that are loyal to
the employees, but now we'retalking about going back to
management training as beingsomething to create loyalty and
enthusiasm.
Natalie (07:16):
And I do think what you're saying, I mean the
benefits and things of that sortof doing better if you have a
good package and things likethat.
Sam (07:22):
But if your boss sucks, it's kind of hard to be happy
about going to work.
Sally (07:26):
Right.
That's the right manager isgonna nurture their employees
and try to mentor them.
Sam (07:32):
That is a balance though.
But mentor is a better wordcause you said nurture and I
thought well but a job has toget done.
Yeah.
Sally (07:38):
I don't mean nurture like mothering.
Sam (07:40):
Right.
Sally (07:40):
I mean figuring out like you know what?
We're going to have this bigproject coming up.
Who knows this, this, this.
What do we need to do?
Get the team involved and ifpeople need whether or not it's
going to a continuing lunch andlearn or even taken a course.
I mean you need to encourageyour people to continue to learn
so they do stay.
Okay.
Vicki (07:59):
Monitoring performance evaluations from an HR
perspective, when you startseeing the performance
deteriorate with employees, I'vebeen proactive before that I
will visit with the employee andask what was going on.
That read a certain level beforesomething's happening.
Sam (08:19):
What kind of response do you typically get to something?
Vicki (08:21):
Yeah, I just don't feel like I can be doing what I want
to do.
I've decided I want to dosomething different.
At that juncture, if theemployee is one that you're
going to lose them one way orthe other.
Sam (08:34):
Right.
They've already decided theydon't want to do this anymore.
Vicki (08:36):
I will work with them and we'll get with the manager and I
will say, you're going to losethis person and this is why and
when I have offered themgenerally with the manager's
approval is I'll give them 30days to be finding another job
and that they can still beemployed as long as they're
doing job and if they have aninterview they can have time for
(08:58):
an interview.
Sam (08:59):
Yeah.
Sally, you have a surprise look,but I totally agree with what
she's saying.
If you're going to part ways doit on good terms for everyone.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Vicki (09:07):
It's good for the employer because they don't have
somebody out there badmouthingthem.
You reduce the level oflitigation that could ensue
after the fact.
You're monitoring them.
As far as any kind of possibledestruction or anything they
might be doing.
The fact that,
Sam (09:24):
They are on good terms though.
It would take a really specialperson that would do something.
Vicki (09:29):
But you're offering that off-ramp.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sally (09:32):
And have you seen anybody do that before?
Vicki (09:35):
I have.
Sally (09:35):
Or heard of anybody do it before and so I'm like, and
that's been my surprise, look, Iwas like, Holy cow.
Vicki (09:41):
I have, and I see people every day that are fired.
Sally (09:45):
To be honest, it would start with the employee.
Sam (09:47):
There has to be communication.
Vicki (09:49):
But again, that gets to the trust of the manager and in
my cases, the HR manager ordirector, it's building the
trust.
Sam (09:56):
But then how do you stop it before it gets to that point?
So an employee has alreadygotten to the point where
they're like, I'm done with thisand it's great If they could
have good communication withtheir boss and say, okay, here's
how we're going to phase me outand I'll train the next person
coming in and everybody's happy.
But how do you see the warningsigns?
What can the manager do?
What can the employee do beforethat happens?
(10:18):
And to me it seems like there'san interesting balance because
yeah, you want the employee tofeel satisfied with what they're
doing and to feel challengedwith what they're doing.
But there is always work thathas to be done.
Natalie (10:27):
I'm kind of curious what your opinion might be
because you do sales stuff and Ithink sometimes Joel.
Yeah, like how he continued tokeep people inspired.
Cause sometimes I think someoneafter they've done sales for the
same company for a long time,they've made me feel like, okay,
I've already tried to prospectthat people, I've already done
this and they kind of, they weardown after awhile.
So how do you, what's yourapproach on if you've got
(10:48):
someone maybe either a newsalesperson or a seasoned
salesperson?
Joel (10:51):
Yeah, I mean I think there's a handful of things that
drive the enthusiasm and loyaltyfirst.
No matter what people says.
I mean it is, the compensationpackage, I mean is either the
compensation or the opportunityfor the compensation, right?
Sally (11:05):
You are looking at the sales aspect
Joel (11:05):
So even if they're not in terms of compensation where they
are, do they genuinely see thatopportunity to get to the
compensation where they want?
So that's going to be first andforemost.
After that, a lot of it comesfrom the way that they're
treated by the managers.
You know, you're coming back tothat.
Are they treated positively?
Are they encouraged andmotivated and coached with
opportunity to succeed?
Are they berated for things?
(11:26):
You know, if they're beat downand berated for not succeeding
or for failing, I'm doing airquotes for a or however you want
to define it, then they'll startto shut down frequently and that
can make a huge difference.
Sam (11:37):
Maybe seeing warning signs in the manager, because I've
noticed this in a lot ofoccupations where somebody gets
worn out with their job, butthey stay in the position.
Then it starts to affect otherpeople and it can be management,
it can be police officers andjudges and people that are in
authoritative positions.
When they get to a point wherethey're frustrated and burned
(11:57):
out, what do you do to keep thatfrom affecting all the people
that count on them or repoprt tothem?
Joel (12:02):
So much of the time it has to do with the positivity from
the manager and I mean that's anoversimplification of any of the
context of this.
Sam (12:09):
Right, but the question was how do you keep the manager
positive?
If they are burned out what doyou do?
Joel (12:13):
Well a lot of that is the right hire in the first place, I
think is a big part of that.
Sam (12:17):
Most are promoted into the position we've talked about that
you get promoted again withoutthe proper training training,
right?
Joel (12:23):
I think that's a lot of it, but also as a, you know,
whether it's meaningful workthat that manager is doing,
whether they, they feelsustained, they feel nurtured,
they feel developed, they feellike they have opportunities as
well is the core of what they doactually meaningful.
Sam (12:38):
They're setting the example of enthusiasm and loyalty by
feeling that way themselves.
It's from the top down.
Joel (12:43):
Right.
So it trickles down from thevery top.
If that manager, it's almostlike the equivalent in the
military.
There's the sergeants that youknow are responsible for their
platoon.
If those sergeants aremotivated, if those sergeants
are on their game, if thosesergeants have the right
attitude, then their individualtroops will do great.
If they're like during theVietnam war, when, uh, the
(13:04):
sergeants became verydemoralized for a variety of
reasons, then the troops becamedemoralized and it's the exact
same thing in a business.
Sam (13:11):
What do you do about a demoralized manager?
What can they do?
If you're a manager and you'refeeling demoralized and it's
affecting your department, whatdo you do about it?
Joel (13:20):
Well, I think the management, the management needs
to, you know, whoever's abovethem needs to come up with
solutions.
Sam (13:25):
Keep taking it up.
Joel (13:27):
It has to keep going up a level, but it's, I mean, it's
about engaging them.
It's about reengaging them,reigniting them, helping them
find that passion, whether it'sin their current job or
somewhere else in the company.
And I have a great horror storyabout it for later.
Vicki (13:41):
Kurt, what have you found?
You're sitting up there politelylistening to us waste the air.
So,
Kurt (13:46):
No, I've got a lot to say.
You touched on some reallyinteresting things.
I think that often times thechallenge or the problem starts
at the very, very top.
I'm gonna use an example thatsomebody may take exception to,
but express scripts.
That company has been knownculturally as a wasteland.
Under George Pause.
Revolving door of senior talent.
The management that isresponsible for empowering and
(14:08):
encouraging has been just spitout the door so fast that that
revolving door spin so fast.
It creates its own weather upthere.
Joel (14:16):
It is one of the 10 worst places to work in the country.
Kurt (14:18):
It's a toxic place and they're hugely successful, but
they spend through people likethey are Kleenex.
You don't fix that problem.
Pause was the problem.
Now I can't speak to the newmanagement, but I still see now
they've got a merger.
It's an entirely differentballgame.
To use another example that I dotake some exception to because
I've got some very close friendswho are retired senior officers
and military full bird colonels.
(14:39):
In the military in many cases,especially today's military.
I'm not going back to Vietnam,which was my era.
They do an exceptional job ofplacing people based upon
capabilities?
Joel (14:49):
Oh, I, yes, absolutely.
I was just speaking aboutVietnam,
Kurt (14:53):
I have become a huge fan of assessments.
I used one just yesterday thatpre employment assessment, you
guys were touching on this whenI came in, are enormously
valuable to see if there's amutual cultural fit and I don't
care whether you're talkingabout the military or$3 million
small business.
It's the culture that starts atthe very top.
The ownership in the Csuite thatgives people the motivation and
the empowerment to want to dotheir jobs into wanting to sta
(15:15):
y.
Then you get generationalbecause millennials are trained.
I have two of my own, theymeasured their lifespan and no
matter what they're doing in twoto three year increments, it's
immediate gratification.
They have no sense of longterm,and that's gonna be a challenge
for our economy in general.
I'm generalizing.
I think that's going to be ahuge challenge for our economy
is these young adults becomemore ingrained in the
(15:35):
infrastructure because I don'tthink they're being equipped at
all.
Even the communications.
I just ran a company that was aturnaround.
Everybody was a millennialexcept for me.
Everything, everything they didamongst each other was
communications in 250characters.
They have lost the ability tocommunicate.
That gets back to all thechallenges that we're all
touching on is if you're notcommunicated with or if you
(15:57):
don't have the skillset tounderstand how to commute.
Vicki (16:00):
Well, Kurt, at your point on the assessments, which I work
with assessments, again, thatstarts from the top because the
top, if you have their profileas far as who they are with
their belief patterns and howthey operate, that trickles down
into the organization becauseeveryone's going to follow.
That's the lead.
That's the boss.
Okay, and you have to understandthe personalities are going to
(16:23):
work within that particularpersonality.
The biggest problem we have inthe United States as we hire in
our own image and that is wrong,that's absolutely wrong.
You need to have diversity sothat you can have quicker,
faster problem solving going onand everybody is having a piece
of that.
But so many people, and I guessI'm going to be a bit sexist
(16:46):
here, and I do apologize.
Typically, older men hireyounger men that are just like
them and they get to live,relive their life through that
younger man.
That's where a lot of this goeson.
So the idea is broaden yourperspective.
Well, a qualified
Kurt (17:04):
I don't think that is a sexist thing, it's just that,
you know, objectively, I seethat being less the case today
than it's been, but I thinkthere's a value proposition.
Sam (17:11):
I don't know if I agree with that.
Natalie (17:14):
I say that happens in sales a lot, I think because you
know, someone's like, Oh, I wasa young hungry salesman,
Vicki (17:19):
So he's going to be like me.
Natalie (17:21):
You know, maybe I'm wrong on that and that might be
even male or female.
I think in general that happens.
Kurt (17:26):
Well as to your point about assessments.
When I go into a client or whenI was running the last company
where I did this and learned it,I will never ask a client to do
an assessment unless they do itat the ownership level first.
I've never asked a client to doan assessment that I myself
haven't been through.
So you have a level playingfield as far as what they're
going to get from that and theycan objectify.
So I have a CEO right now, anowner of a company who's going
(17:46):
through an assessment with CMA,industrial psychologist, the
science is there, and then he'sgoing to have his number two and
number three assessed after hecan objectify.
Vicki (17:53):
I use the Birkman.
Yeah.
So that is something that isvery broad in its use.
But anyway, the idea is there isnot a go no go on that legally
you can't say because of anassessment, I can't hire you.
Sam (18:08):
Okay.
So it sounds like thisconversation took a little bit
different direction than I wasthinking.
I was thinking it was more aboutthe employee relationship and
what they need.
But the two things that I reallygot out of this are, first it
comes from the top down.
So it's the attitude of themanager really affects the
attitude of the employee and theattitude of the manager's
manager affects the editor andthe manager and so on and so
forth.
And then you're talking aboutassessments and that is matching
(18:29):
the right person in the rightjob in the first place.
It's going to keep their loyaltyand enthusiasm.
Does anybody have a horror storyrelevant to loyalty or
enthusiasm that they'd like toshare.
All right.
Joel (18:42):
I have a great one.
So a few years ago I did a uh,an assessment on why some sales
were decreasing in a productline to know large retail chain
that was up the East coast and Ivisited about 14 locations in
four States doing a wide rangeof research and talking to the
managers, the employees,customers, you know, assessing
the state of the stores, theenvironment, all sorts of
things.
(19:03):
Came back with about a 60 pagereport in the end.
But what the most interestingthing that I discovered happened
was about four years prior tothis and which is when their
sales started decreasing.
They had centralized theirordering and distribution
process and they had begunsending out planograms on how to
arrange the shelves in thestores.
(19:23):
So the two things that did,these managers that had been in
charge of these stores for 20 or30 years, their favorite part of
their jobs were ordering andrestocking and display for their
customers.
And when they centralized it,they took that away from these
front line managers.
So they took away their favoritepart of their jobs, the parts
that are most proud of the partsthat they enjoyed the most.
And they left them as basicallybabysitters of minimum wage
(19:46):
employees.
And as a result of thedemoralization that happened
with those store managers, thefrontline employees were
demoralized.
And then as a result of theactual customer experience was
dramatically lacking.
Sam (20:01):
And so they did something they thought was going to be an
improvement and it completelybackfired.
Joel (20:04):
But because they didn't take it from a process
perspective to engage andeducate and inform and include
everybody in the implementationof it.
They instead just took awaythese in every single case,
these men's favorite part oftheir job.
One day they suddenly found outit was gone and over the span of
the next few years, they stoppedcaring and I found this from
(20:27):
store to store to store thestories, the anecdotes, the ways
in which they shared itdifferent slightly, but it all
came back to this onequintessential moment where they
took both of those things awayfrom their managers at the same
time and damage the business.
Sally (20:42):
What did they do about it.
Joel (20:44):
Uh, in this case, uh, nothing.
Sam (20:47):
They almost would hae to hire new managers, with a
different job description.
Joel (20:48):
Yeah, no, I, I honestly, the store needed to declare
bankrupcy and do a restructure.
They had a whole host of otherissues as well.
Christine (20:58):
Thanks for listening to super manager by CN video
production.
Visit our website@cn-video.comfor additional episodes and lots
of super manager resources, orgive us a call at 314- VIDEO-
ME.
You're listening to super manager, the podcast for
people who manage people andbusiness with ideas, trends, and
expert interviews to help you bea super manager.
Sam (00:12):
I found for me personally, enthusiasm and loyalty first are
two different things.
With enthusiasm, my opinion,it's about having specific goals
and victories that they can meetand as far as loyalty goes, I
feel like you get what you giveand that's what we're going to
be talking about this week isemployee enthusiasm and loyalty
and how do we get and keep it.
I am Samantha Naes with CNvideo.
(00:34):
We do corporate video productionand I have with me my group of
super friends,
Vicki (00:38):
Victoria Wars go by Vicki.
Wars Consulting, a humanresources consultancy.
Sally (00:43):
Sally Bowls, Prefix Technologies.
We work with small and mediumsized businesses to alleviate
the headaches and financial riskassociated with technology.
Natalie (00:53):
Natalie Meyer, president of Hoopayz, we
advocate for your company, youremployees, HR and your brokers.
Joel (01:00):
Joel Emery with Ignite Strategies.
I serve as a sale systemsarchitect for small and midsize
businesses, helping them growtheir revenue streams.
Kurt (01:08):
Kurt Kenny with the Alliance Technologies, managed
services provider.
Also I'm running the consultingpractice for small to medium
businesses.
Vicki (01:15):
Unfortunately, employees have a generation above them,
their parents that they got towatch being laid off after 25
years, 30 years.
They got to see how loyalty hasnot been, how would we say,
rewarded, valued.
(01:35):
And then that's one aspect.
Sam (01:38):
Do you think that's really the cause though.
I mean,
Vicki (01:40):
Well going back to the other issue, most new hires, if
they're college educated, havegot to have a job to pay all of
that student debt.
That is something that's overtheir heads and to be laid off
or cut loose with little or nonotice will absolutely devastate
them on top of that, especiallyfrom the tech field, if they
(02:02):
stay with an organization morethan two or three years and the
organization has not providedthem development, provided them
continued knowledge, growth,they have to leave or they will
not be marketable anymore.
So you're dealing with a coupleof kind of interesting
approaches there.
Do you find that Sally and your,
Sally (02:23):
We are constantly learning.
It's a daily thing because if wedon't, we're behind.
Vicki (02:27):
But you offer that to your employees and by slowly by
doing that, that's a kind of abuilt in retention right there,
isn't it?
Sally (02:34):
Well, if you don't stay ahead of your field, you can't
serve your clients.
And that's our philosophy.
Vicki (02:39):
That's correct.
Sally (02:40):
But I do think that there's a huge, and I mean huge,
probably two generations therethat have watched their parents
go through and get to that ageof in between 50 and 60 and
suddenly laid off.
And I think that they're causingpeople to be,
Sam (02:55):
You're saying you think that employees coming into the
workforce don't trust employers?
Sally (02:59):
No.
No, not at all.
Right.
I think that they probably haveinstilled in them that they need
to look out for themselves more,whether that's through education
or training for that nextpromotion up where there was an
older generation who thought ifthey stayed long enough, they
would get to that next level, berecognized.
Sam (03:17):
But what's the difference?
Because it sounds like when yousay that you're taught to look
out for yourself, what you'resaying is that you not to trust
your employer.
sally (03:25):
No, I don't mean that at all.
By look up for yourself.
I mean figure out if you wantthat next promotion, what does
that take?
Sam (03:31):
Oh, okay.
Sally (03:32):
What do you need to do for yourself?
Where I think, and ifparticularly like my parents'
generation, I think if youstayed at a company long enough
and you were noticed by yourboss, they didn't have to toot
their own horn.
They didn't have to do their ownhomework.
They were kind of led along inthe corporation because most of
them stayed 35 40 years.
Now if you're a young person outof college and you're in a large
(03:54):
corporation, you kind of have tofigure out for yourself, where
do I want to go and what do Ineed to do and hopefully you
work for someplace that's goingto either offer that, whether
it's continuing education,taking an evening course.
What do you do to betteryourself?
I don't think anybody's waitinganymore for their manager to
tell them.
Sam (04:13):
So you're not talking about someone just entering a new job.
You're talking about someonewho's been with the company for
awhile.
What keeps their loyalty andwhat keeps them is continuing to
grow and learn more and be morevaluable.
Sally (04:24):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think if you're not meantto feel that way, those are the
people that are going to belooking.
Yeah.
But I do think the youngergeneration is more in tune to
reaching out and askingquestions to better themselves
versus waiting for HR or amanager to tell them.
And I personally think it'sgreat.
Vicki (04:42):
Well actually there are groups out there when in
particular I know that that'swhat they catered to.
They cater to currently employedindividuals who want to continue
to develop themselves while theyare employed.
But they're not being offeredthat within their organization.
Sam (04:59):
I was talking to a friend of mine who does recruiting and
she was saying that the bestfinds are the ones that are
currently employed because youget the job hoppers, the people
that get there and it wasn'twhat they expected and they
leave and they don't quite yethave the commitments like maybe
they're still living at homewith their parents and so those
are not what she considers to bethe best finds, but the ones
(05:20):
that are with an employer thathave been there for awhile and
they're getting to that levelwhere they're starting to feel
unappreciated and like they'refalling behind people who are
entering the workforce, thoseare the best ones for offering
them new opportunities becausegoing somewhere else can often
offer them what they're notgetting with their current
employer.
Natalie (05:37):
It's very true.
I have a friend of mine that wasjust not happy with her job and
she called me the other morningas I was walking my dog.
I was like five 30 or something.
I'm like, why is she calling me?
She was on her way to work.
Yeah, she was very, she go inearly so she can get home to
pick up her kids and stuff likethat.
And so she was just like, I justwanna quit.
And I was like, well your tofinding a new job are better if
(05:59):
you stay employed then if youwait and then go looking, you
know.
And I think it also just killsthe, you're talking about
enthusiasm at the beginning.
And I think sometimes it's alsojust that natural, like how to
keep the wheels churning andwhen you're in the mentality of
working, keeps you going andthen to stay enthused.
I think it also goes back to,
Sam (06:16):
That's great advice for your friend, but what about what
that does to the organization?
So you've got somebody whoreally hates their job, doesn't
give a crap about it anymore,but is sticking it out until
their next good opportunitycomes along.
How good of a job are they doingfor the organization?
Natalie (06:28):
Yeah.
Well, she got moved to a newmanager and I said, well you
never know.
This person could be amazing andyou really should hold out and
wait.
And see, I mean if you want tolook or something on the side,
but don't necessarily rule outthe fact just because you had a
bad manager before, but thisperson is also going to be bad.
Sally (06:45):
The right manager can make any job wonderful.
Natalie (06:48):
Agreed.
We talk about loyalty andenthusiasm.
I think if you have the rightmanagers, you may not be loyal
to the company, but you'reloyal.
You know, I've known a number ofpeople that once that manager
left, they were like, well I'mleaving.
Sam (07:00):
That's a whole other level.
Because we, I was thinking alongthe lines of benefits in the way
it works in the office and howdo you keep people loyal?
But you're talking about whatkind of like what I said, you
get what you give if you've gotgood managers that are loyal to
the employees, but now we'retalking about going back to
management training as beingsomething to create loyalty and
enthusiasm.
Natalie (07:16):
And I do think what you're saying, I mean the
benefits and things of that sortof doing better if you have a
good package and things likethat.
Sam (07:22):
But if your boss sucks, it's kind of hard to be happy
about going to work.
Sally (07:26):
Right.
That's the right manager isgonna nurture their employees
and try to mentor them.
Sam (07:32):
That is a balance though.
But mentor is a better wordcause you said nurture and I
thought well but a job has toget done.
Yeah.
Sally (07:38):
I don't mean nurture like mothering.
Sam (07:40):
Right.
Sally (07:40):
I mean figuring out like you know what?
We're going to have this bigproject coming up.
Who knows this, this, this.
What do we need to do?
Get the team involved and ifpeople need whether or not it's
going to a continuing lunch andlearn or even taken a course.
I mean you need to encourageyour people to continue to learn
so they do stay.
Okay.
Vicki (07:59):
Monitoring performance evaluations from an HR
perspective, when you startseeing the performance
deteriorate with employees, I'vebeen proactive before that I
will visit with the employee andask what was going on.
That read a certain level beforesomething's happening.
Sam (08:19):
What kind of response do you typically get to something?
Vicki (08:21):
Yeah, I just don't feel like I can be doing what I want
to do.
I've decided I want to dosomething different.
At that juncture, if theemployee is one that you're
going to lose them one way orthe other.
Sam (08:34):
Right.
They've already decided theydon't want to do this anymore.
Vicki (08:36):
I will work with them and we'll get with the manager and I
will say, you're going to losethis person and this is why and
when I have offered themgenerally with the manager's
approval is I'll give them 30days to be finding another job
and that they can still beemployed as long as they're
doing job and if they have aninterview they can have time for
(08:58):
an interview.
Sam (08:59):
Yeah.
Sally, you have a surprise look,but I totally agree with what
she's saying.
If you're going to part ways doit on good terms for everyone.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Vicki (09:07):
It's good for the employer because they don't have
somebody out there badmouthingthem.
You reduce the level oflitigation that could ensue
after the fact.
You're monitoring them.
As far as any kind of possibledestruction or anything they
might be doing.
The fact that,
Sam (09:24):
They are on good terms though.
It would take a really specialperson that would do something.
Vicki (09:29):
But you're offering that off-ramp.
Yeah.
Okay.
Sally (09:32):
And have you seen anybody do that before?
Vicki (09:35):
I have.
Sally (09:35):
Or heard of anybody do it before and so I'm like, and
that's been my surprise, look, Iwas like, Holy cow.
Vicki (09:41):
I have, and I see people every day that are fired.
Sally (09:45):
To be honest, it would start with the employee.
Sam (09:47):
There has to be communication.
Vicki (09:49):
But again, that gets to the trust of the manager and in
my cases, the HR manager ordirector, it's building the
trust.
Sam (09:56):
But then how do you stop it before it gets to that point?
So an employee has alreadygotten to the point where
they're like, I'm done with thisand it's great If they could
have good communication withtheir boss and say, okay, here's
how we're going to phase me outand I'll train the next person
coming in and everybody's happy.
But how do you see the warningsigns?
What can the manager do?
What can the employee do beforethat happens?
(10:18):
And to me it seems like there'san interesting balance because
yeah, you want the employee tofeel satisfied with what they're
doing and to feel challengedwith what they're doing.
But there is always work thathas to be done.
Natalie (10:27):
I'm kind of curious what your opinion might be
because you do sales stuff and Ithink sometimes Joel.
Yeah, like how he continued tokeep people inspired.
Cause sometimes I think someoneafter they've done sales for the
same company for a long time,they've made me feel like, okay,
I've already tried to prospectthat people, I've already done
this and they kind of, they weardown after awhile.
So how do you, what's yourapproach on if you've got
(10:48):
someone maybe either a newsalesperson or a seasoned
salesperson?
Joel (10:51):
Yeah, I mean I think there's a handful of things that
drive the enthusiasm and loyaltyfirst.
No matter what people says.
I mean it is, the compensationpackage, I mean is either the
compensation or the opportunityfor the compensation, right?
Sally (11:05):
You are looking at the sales aspect
Joel (11:05):
So even if they're not in terms of compensation where they
are, do they genuinely see thatopportunity to get to the
compensation where they want?
So that's going to be first andforemost.
After that, a lot of it comesfrom the way that they're
treated by the managers.
You know, you're coming back tothat.
Are they treated positively?
Are they encouraged andmotivated and coached with
opportunity to succeed?
Are they berated for things?
(11:26):
You know, if they're beat downand berated for not succeeding
or for failing, I'm doing airquotes for a or however you want
to define it, then they'll startto shut down frequently and that
can make a huge difference.
Sam (11:37):
Maybe seeing warning signs in the manager, because I've
noticed this in a lot ofoccupations where somebody gets
worn out with their job, butthey stay in the position.
Then it starts to affect otherpeople and it can be management,
it can be police officers andjudges and people that are in
authoritative positions.
When they get to a point wherethey're frustrated and burned
(11:57):
out, what do you do to keep thatfrom affecting all the people
that count on them or repoprt tothem?
Joel (12:02):
So much of the time it has to do with the positivity from
the manager and I mean that's anoversimplification of any of the
context of this.
Sam (12:09):
Right, but the question was how do you keep the manager
positive?
If they are burned out what doyou do?
Joel (12:13):
Well a lot of that is the right hire in the first place, I
think is a big part of that.
Sam (12:17):
Most are promoted into the position we've talked about that
you get promoted again withoutthe proper training training,
right?
Joel (12:23):
I think that's a lot of it, but also as a, you know,
whether it's meaningful workthat that manager is doing,
whether they, they feelsustained, they feel nurtured,
they feel developed, they feellike they have opportunities as
well is the core of what they doactually meaningful.
Sam (12:38):
They're setting the example of enthusiasm and loyalty by
feeling that way themselves.
It's from the top down.
Joel (12:43):
Right.
So it trickles down from thevery top.
If that manager, it's almostlike the equivalent in the
military.
There's the sergeants that youknow are responsible for their
platoon.
If those sergeants aremotivated, if those sergeants
are on their game, if thosesergeants have the right
attitude, then their individualtroops will do great.
If they're like during theVietnam war, when, uh, the
(13:04):
sergeants became verydemoralized for a variety of
reasons, then the troops becamedemoralized and it's the exact
same thing in a business.
Sam (13:11):
What do you do about a demoralized manager?
What can they do?
If you're a manager and you'refeeling demoralized and it's
affecting your department, whatdo you do about it?
Joel (13:20):
Well, I think the management, the management needs
to, you know, whoever's abovethem needs to come up with
solutions.
Sam (13:25):
Keep taking it up.
Joel (13:27):
It has to keep going up a level, but it's, I mean, it's
about engaging them.
It's about reengaging them,reigniting them, helping them
find that passion, whether it'sin their current job or
somewhere else in the company.
And I have a great horror storyabout it for later.
Vicki (13:41):
Kurt, what have you found?
You're sitting up there politelylistening to us waste the air.
So,
Kurt (13:46):
No, I've got a lot to say.
You touched on some reallyinteresting things.
I think that often times thechallenge or the problem starts
at the very, very top.
I'm gonna use an example thatsomebody may take exception to,
but express scripts.
That company has been knownculturally as a wasteland.
Under George Pause.
Revolving door of senior talent.
The management that isresponsible for empowering and
(14:08):
encouraging has been just spitout the door so fast that that
revolving door spin so fast.
It creates its own weather upthere.
Joel (14:16):
It is one of the 10 worst places to work in the country.
Kurt (14:18):
It's a toxic place and they're hugely successful, but
they spend through people likethey are Kleenex.
You don't fix that problem.
Pause was the problem.
Now I can't speak to the newmanagement, but I still see now
they've got a merger.
It's an entirely differentballgame.
To use another example that I dotake some exception to because
I've got some very close friendswho are retired senior officers
and military full bird colonels.
(14:39):
In the military in many cases,especially today's military.
I'm not going back to Vietnam,which was my era.
They do an exceptional job ofplacing people based upon
capabilities?
Joel (14:49):
Oh, I, yes, absolutely.
I was just speaking aboutVietnam,
Kurt (14:53):
I have become a huge fan of assessments.
I used one just yesterday thatpre employment assessment, you
guys were touching on this whenI came in, are enormously
valuable to see if there's amutual cultural fit and I don't
care whether you're talkingabout the military or$3 million
small business.
It's the culture that starts atthe very top.
The ownership in the Csuite thatgives people the motivation and
the empowerment to want to dotheir jobs into wanting to sta
(15:15):
y.
Then you get generationalbecause millennials are trained.
I have two of my own, theymeasured their lifespan and no
matter what they're doing in twoto three year increments, it's
immediate gratification.
They have no sense of longterm,and that's gonna be a challenge
for our economy in general.
I'm generalizing.
I think that's going to be ahuge challenge for our economy
is these young adults becomemore ingrained in the
(15:35):
infrastructure because I don'tthink they're being equipped at
all.
Even the communications.
I just ran a company that was aturnaround.
Everybody was a millennialexcept for me.
Everything, everything they didamongst each other was
communications in 250characters.
They have lost the ability tocommunicate.
That gets back to all thechallenges that we're all
touching on is if you're notcommunicated with or if you
(15:57):
don't have the skillset tounderstand how to commute.
Vicki (16:00):
Well, Kurt, at your point on the assessments, which I work
with assessments, again, thatstarts from the top because the
top, if you have their profileas far as who they are with
their belief patterns and howthey operate, that trickles down
into the organization becauseeveryone's going to follow.
That's the lead.
That's the boss.
Okay, and you have to understandthe personalities are going to
(16:23):
work within that particularpersonality.
The biggest problem we have inthe United States as we hire in
our own image and that is wrong,that's absolutely wrong.
You need to have diversity sothat you can have quicker,
faster problem solving going onand everybody is having a piece
of that.
But so many people, and I guessI'm going to be a bit sexist
(16:46):
here, and I do apologize.
Typically, older men hireyounger men that are just like
them and they get to live,relive their life through that
younger man.
That's where a lot of this goeson.
So the idea is broaden yourperspective.
Well, a qualified
Kurt (17:04):
I don't think that is a sexist thing, it's just that,
you know, objectively, I seethat being less the case today
than it's been, but I thinkthere's a value proposition.
Sam (17:11):
I don't know if I agree with that.
Natalie (17:14):
I say that happens in sales a lot, I think because you
know, someone's like, Oh, I wasa young hungry salesman,
Vicki (17:19):
So he's going to be like me.
Natalie (17:21):
You know, maybe I'm wrong on that and that might be
even male or female.
I think in general that happens.
Kurt (17:26):
Well as to your point about assessments.
When I go into a client or whenI was running the last company
where I did this and learned it,I will never ask a client to do
an assessment unless they do itat the ownership level first.
I've never asked a client to doan assessment that I myself
haven't been through.
So you have a level playingfield as far as what they're
going to get from that and theycan objectify.
So I have a CEO right now, anowner of a company who's going
(17:46):
through an assessment with CMA,industrial psychologist, the
science is there, and then he'sgoing to have his number two and
number three assessed after hecan objectify.
Vicki (17:53):
I use the Birkman.
Yeah.
So that is something that isvery broad in its use.
But anyway, the idea is there isnot a go no go on that legally
you can't say because of anassessment, I can't hire you.
Sam (18:08):
Okay.
So it sounds like thisconversation took a little bit
different direction than I wasthinking.
I was thinking it was more aboutthe employee relationship and
what they need.
But the two things that I reallygot out of this are, first it
comes from the top down.
So it's the attitude of themanager really affects the
attitude of the employee and theattitude of the manager's
manager affects the editor andthe manager and so on and so
forth.
And then you're talking aboutassessments and that is matching
(18:29):
the right person in the rightjob in the first place.
It's going to keep their loyaltyand enthusiasm.
Does anybody have a horror storyrelevant to loyalty or
enthusiasm that they'd like toshare.
All right.
Joel (18:42):
I have a great one.
So a few years ago I did a uh,an assessment on why some sales
were decreasing in a productline to know large retail chain
that was up the East coast and Ivisited about 14 locations in
four States doing a wide rangeof research and talking to the
managers, the employees,customers, you know, assessing
the state of the stores, theenvironment, all sorts of
things.
(19:03):
Came back with about a 60 pagereport in the end.
But what the most interestingthing that I discovered happened
was about four years prior tothis and which is when their
sales started decreasing.
They had centralized theirordering and distribution
process and they had begunsending out planograms on how to
arrange the shelves in thestores.
(19:23):
So the two things that did,these managers that had been in
charge of these stores for 20 or30 years, their favorite part of
their jobs were ordering andrestocking and display for their
customers.
And when they centralized it,they took that away from these
front line managers.
So they took away their favoritepart of their jobs, the parts
that are most proud of the partsthat they enjoyed the most.
And they left them as basicallybabysitters of minimum wage
(19:46):
employees.
And as a result of thedemoralization that happened
with those store managers, thefrontline employees were
demoralized.
And then as a result of theactual customer experience was
dramatically lacking.
Sam (20:01):
And so they did something they thought was going to be an
improvement and it completelybackfired.
Joel (20:04):
But because they didn't take it from a process
perspective to engage andeducate and inform and include
everybody in the implementationof it.
They instead just took awaythese in every single case,
these men's favorite part oftheir job.
One day they suddenly found outit was gone and over the span of
the next few years, they stoppedcaring and I found this from
(20:27):
store to store to store thestories, the anecdotes, the ways
in which they shared itdifferent slightly, but it all
came back to this onequintessential moment where they
took both of those things awayfrom their managers at the same
time and damage the business.
Sally (20:42):
What did they do about it.
Joel (20:44):
Uh, in this case, uh, nothing.
Sam (20:47):
They almost would hae to hire new managers, with a
different job description.
Joel (20:48):
Yeah, no, I, I honestly, the store needed to declare
bankrupcy and do a restructure.
They had a whole host of otherissues as well.
Christine (20:58):
Thanks for listening to super manager by CN video
production.
Visit our website@cn-video.comfor additional episodes and lots
of super manager resources, orgive us a call at 314- VIDEO-
ME.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!